J1 Sarmatians in Beslan

According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

Sarmatian and Alan Y-DNA recovered in Beslan and other lacations

According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year. The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

Zakaryah said:

According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

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I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?


Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

As I already wrote in your other thread. so I quote myself.


"The samples are not even from the same place or timefram but from a large area known to archeologist as "the Saltovo-Mayaki complex"

"I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?



Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

Alan

In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

Some additional information.

Анализ аутосомных маркеров показал, что, хотя в генофонде изученных популяций фиксируются примеси разных направлений, в целом же можно говорить о том, что здесь обнаружены типичные европейские генотипы. translation.

Despite having various admixtures, in general we can say that they have a typical European genotypes.

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They don't specify the number of markers. In the Russian forum someone posted that the details with autosomes and deeper Y DNA SNPs will be presented later.

Also they have 126 aDNA samples from LBA, Iron age to medieval period. Samples are available not only from Steppe region but also from North Caucasus. How many of them have successful extraction they don't mention.

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There is another Beslan in Rostov region.
Near Salsk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsk

So this Sarmatians are from Rostov region not Ossetia!??!!

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A new update.

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo&usp=sharing


So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.

Arame said:

A new update.

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo&usp=sharing


So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.

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SO as I thought the sample is from further North and not Beslan but Rostov.

WHat I don't understand about the text it says one of the Samples is Beslan from Rostov? How can a sample be from Beslan in Rostov. Thats like saying a Sample is from Bayern in Saxon it doesn't make sense imo.


EDIT: Ah now I see the J1 Sarmatian samples are near Beslan. There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river. The Alan G2a and R1a samples are further North in East Ukraine. While the J2a samples again is in East Ukraine on the same spot as the Alan samples. And the Saltovo-Mayaki R1a again is in North Caucasus.

In general there seems some more samples even an N1c is among them.

Arame said:

Alan

In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

Some additional information.

Click to expand...

That they are European like is out of doubt, as I know they include in EUropean Genotypes also North Caucasian as it is technically East Europe than that makes sense since I have seen scientists considr North Caucasian aDNA as "typical EUropean" either because they don't really seem to differ between North Caucasus and Russian genes. Looking by those y and mtDNA results they look like they are in between North Caucasians/Central Asians and Russians.

This thread of mine and the map comes to my mind.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap

Alan said:

The samples are not even from the same place or timeframe but from a large area known to archeologist as the Saltovo-Mayaki complex

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Sarmatian and Alan samples are Ancient (dated to years 200-600 AD).

Saltovo-Mayaki are 4 Early Medieval samples from 800-900 AD from the area of the Khazar Khaganate:

About Saltovo-Mayaki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

"Saltovo-Mayaki is the name given by archaeologists to the early medieval culture of the Pontic steppe region roughly between the Don and the Dnieper Rivers. Their culture was a melting pot of Onogur, Khazar, Pecheneg, Magyar, Alan, and Slavic influences. During the ninth century the Saltovo-Mayaki culture was closely associated with the Khazar Khaganate, and archaeological sites from this period are one way that historians track the geographic scope of Khazar influence."

https://www.academia.edu/15713987/А...игма_современной_археологии_._М._ИА_РАН._2015

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PQF7vHBCA3JXMZ-CsaTseInGd0bdvJWfjg-Tk_s20U/edit#gid=0

Alan said:

Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

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It is not the first appearance of J1 in aDNA, but the second appearance.

J1 appeared in 5 pre-conquest (ABO) samples from the Canary Islands dated to 2270 - 690 years ago:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf

I. Saltovo-Mayaki (years 800-900 AD):

A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

II. Sarmatians (years 200-300 AD):

A80303 - J1 (Y-DNA), H1c21 (mtDNA)
A80304 - J1 (Y-DNA), K1a3 (mtDNA)

III. Alans (years 400-600 AD):

A80305 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), W1c (mtDNA)
A80307 - G2a (Y-DNA), X2i (mtDNA)

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This map shows the location of all 8 samples listed above:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo

Alan said:

There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river.

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This one is not from Sarmatians, but from Scythians (map) - and it is much older (from year 1000 BC or even older):

This map shows all dates in BC, unless stated that in AD:

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png



List of R1a samples from Europe from BC times (it doesn't include these new AD samples, Alans and Saltovo-Mayaki):

UZOO74 - Red Deer Island, Karelia - 5500-5000 BC
A3 - Serteya VIII, Smolensk Oblast - 4000 BC
RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
RISE436 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2868-2580 BC
RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld, Bavaria - 2829-2465 BC
EUL9(99-3) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL11(99-2) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL12(99-4) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
A8 - Naumovo, Pskov Oblast - 2500 BC
A9 - Serteya II, Smolensk Oblast - 2500 BC
RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
ESP11 - Esperstedt, Saxony-Anhalt - 2473-2348 BC
RISE431 - Łęki Małe, Greater Poland - 2286-2048 BC
Rogalin1 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
Rogalin2 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
HAL36 - Halberstadt, Sachsen-Anhalt - 1113-1021 BC
Tanais kurgan - Azov steppes, Maeotia - at least 1000 BC
M10 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
M11 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
RISE598 - Turlojiškė, Sudovia - 908-485 BC
A4 - Anashkino hillfort, Pskov Oblast - 800-400 BC

Map of R1a samples in aDNA: http://s14.postimg.org/5ki48186p/Ancient_R1a_map.png



List of R1a samples in aDNA: http://s21.postimg.org/72hftwz7b/Ancient_R1a_samples.png

Alans were Iranid (Aryan) R1a-Z94 (from R1a-Z93) folks and not Europoid R1a-Z283. R1a-Z94 evolved from R1a-Z93 on the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a is also from the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a-Z94 is native to Kurdistan and Persia

Sarmartians have J1, Alanians R1a-Z94; for me it's an ultimate proof that those folks came from the (Kurdish) Zagros Mountains.

For you it is.

arvistro said:

For you it is.

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Some folks don't like to hear the real truth. Ossetians are the modern descendants of the ancient Alanians, because Ossetians the only people in that region that speak also an Iranic language.

" Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran. "

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00131.x/abstract

arvistro said:

For you it is.

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To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. Both worshipped the Sky though. However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times. I doubt that Sarmatians, Scythians or whoever would have fit perfectly in one of the both categories. I see them more like the missing link between modern North Caucasians/Tajiks and Russians/Ukrainians based on Genetics As seen on my map above. However I also think just like the Bronze Age Armenian sample the Medes and even Persians where slightly more Northern shifted like modern North Caucasians compared to modern Kurds and Persians.

I think all groups of the Northern Middle East are 8-15% Semite admixed, while ancient Iron Age groups would have been moe 4-8% admixed (from mixing with Babylonians and Assyrians). Than in more modern time came a second wave of Semite admixture with Arabs what probably doubled this numbers.

What is nowadays North Caucasus like must have been by Bornze and Iron Age East Anatolian, Mesopotamian, South Caucasus and Iranian Plateau like. Ancient North Caucasus was probably even more Northern shifted similar to Yamna samples themselves. Since Myakop, Yamna and Kura Araxes seem to form a cultural complex.

To explain myself - it is not "ultimate proof" for me and I cant see how it can be
Other than that I am rather agnostic to where those folk came from.

Alan said:

To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times.

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?

What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

Goga said:

The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

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.. that makes you of the race of GODS!!
I am sorry for all the times I disputed with you, the reason was I did not know...