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Zakaryah
22-09-15, 12:27
According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

Zakaryah
22-09-15, 12:34
According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year. The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

Alan
23-09-15, 00:39
According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/37h3uafj0g4r4254/images/9-ac6fb63ff3.jpg

Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

Alan
23-09-15, 00:42
As I already wrote in your other thread. so I quote myself.


"The samples are not even from the same place or timefram but from a large area known to archeologist as "the Saltovo-Mayaki complex"

"I used the google translater. And with no words was there any mention of the samples being from Beslan.

Contrary I have the peer review paper and according to a map on this, All the samples seem to be from further North. May I ask how you come to the conclusion that they are from Beslan?

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/37h3uafj0g4r4254/images/9-ac6fb63ff3.jpg

Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

Arame
23-09-15, 07:32
Alan

In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

Some additional information.


Анализ аутосомных маркеров показал, что, хотя в генофонде изученных популяций фиксируются примеси разных направлений, в целом же можно говорить о том, что здесь обнаружены типичные европейские генотипы. translation.

Despite having various admixtures, in general we can say that they have a typical European genotypes.


They don't specify the number of markers. In the Russian forum someone posted that the details with autosomes and deeper Y DNA SNPs will be presented later.

Also they have 126 aDNA samples from LBA, Iron age to medieval period. Samples are available not only from Steppe region but also from North Caucasus. How many of them have successful extraction they don't mention.

Arame
23-09-15, 07:39
There is another Beslan (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_% D0%91%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD) in Rostov region.
Near Salsk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsk

So this Sarmatians are from Rostov region not Ossetia!??!!

A new update.

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo&usp=sharing


So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.

Alan
23-09-15, 10:36
A new update.

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo&usp=sharing


So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.



SO as I thought the sample is from further North and not Beslan but Rostov.

WHat I don't understand about the text it says one of the Samples is Beslan from Rostov? How can a sample be from Beslan in Rostov. Thats like saying a Sample is from Bayern in Saxon :laughing: it doesn't make sense imo.


EDIT: Ah now I see the J1 Sarmatian samples are near Beslan. There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river. The Alan G2a and R1a samples are further North in East Ukraine. While the J2a samples again is in East Ukraine on the same spot as the Alan samples. And the Saltovo-Mayaki R1a again is in North Caucasus.

In general there seems some more samples even an N1c is among them.

Alan
23-09-15, 10:39
Alan

In the Y DNA table there is a mention of Beslan.

Some additional information.


That they are European like is out of doubt, as I know they include in EUropean Genotypes also North Caucasian as it is technically East Europe than that makes sense since I have seen scientists considr North Caucasian aDNA as "typical EUropean" either because they don't really seem to differ between North Caucasus and Russian genes. Looking by those y and mtDNA results they look like they are in between North Caucasians/Central Asians and Russians.

This thread of mine and the map comes to my mind.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/mds1600fcpt4eo1s3.png
(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap)

Tomenable
23-09-15, 11:13
The samples are not even from the same place or timeframe but from a large area known to archeologist as the Saltovo-Mayaki complex

Sarmatian and Alan samples are Ancient (dated to years 200-600 AD).

Saltovo-Mayaki are 4 Early Medieval samples from 800-900 AD from the area of the Khazar Khaganate:

About Saltovo-Mayaki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

"Saltovo-Mayaki is the name given by archaeologists to the early medieval culture of the Pontic steppe region roughly between the Don and the Dnieper Rivers. Their culture was a melting pot of Onogur, Khazar, Pecheneg, Magyar, Alan, and Slavic influences. During the ninth century the Saltovo-Mayaki culture was closely associated with the Khazar Khaganate, and archaeological sites from this period are one way that historians track the geographic scope of Khazar influence."

https://www.academia.edu/15713987/Афанасьев_Г.Е._Ван_Л._Вень_Ш._ Вэй_Л._Добровольская_М.В._Ко обов_Д.С._Решетова_И.К._Ли_Х._ Тун_С._Хазарские_конфедерат ы_в_бассейне_Дона_Тезисы_до ладов_на_Всероссийской_нау чной_конференции_Естествен нонаучные_методы_исследова ния_и_парадигма_современно _археологии_._М._ИА_РАН._2015

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16PQF7vHBCA3JXMZ-CsaTseInGd0bdvJWfjg-Tk_s20U/edit#gid=0





I. Saltovo-Mayaki (years 800-900 AD):

A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

II. Sarmatians (years 200-300 AD):

A80303 - J1 (Y-DNA), H1c21 (mtDNA)
A80304 - J1 (Y-DNA), K1a3 (mtDNA)

III. Alans (years 400-600 AD):

A80305 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), W1c (mtDNA)
A80307 - G2a (Y-DNA), X2i (mtDNA)






Anyways that is not only the first time Sarmatians turn out as J1 it's the first appearance of J1 in ancient history in general.

It is not the first appearance of J1 in aDNA, but the second appearance.

J1 appeared in 5 pre-conquest (ABO) samples from the Canary Islands dated to 2270 - 690 years ago:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-9-181.pdf





E1b1b1b* M81 ---- 8 ---- 26,67%
E1b1b1a* M78 ---- 7 ---- 23,33%
J1* M267 -------- 5 ---- 16,67%
R1b1b2 M269 ----- 3 ---- 10,00%
K* M9 ----------- 3 ---- 10,00%
I* M170 --------- 2 ---- 6,67%
E1a* M33 -------- 1 ---- 3,33%
P* M45 ---------- 1 ---- 3,33%

Tomenable
23-09-15, 11:25
I. Saltovo-Mayaki (years 800-900 AD):

A80301 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), I4a (mtDNA)
A80302 - D4m2 (mtDNA)
A80410 - G (Y-DNA)
A80411 - J2a (Y-DNA)

II. Sarmatians (years 200-300 AD):

A80303 - J1 (Y-DNA), H1c21 (mtDNA)
A80304 - J1 (Y-DNA), K1a3 (mtDNA)

III. Alans (years 400-600 AD):

A80305 - R1a1a1b2a (Y-DNA), W1c (mtDNA)
A80307 - G2a (Y-DNA), X2i (mtDNA)

This map shows the location of all 8 samples listed above:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo

Tomenable
23-09-15, 11:42
There seems to be another R1a sample but from Sarmatians in Tanais on Rostov on the Don river.

This one is not from Sarmatians, but from Scythians (map) - and it is much older (from year 1000 BC or even older):

This map shows all dates in BC, unless stated that in AD:

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png

http://s23.postimg.org/nen0yig57/R1a_Asia_dates.png

List of R1a samples from Europe from BC times (it doesn't include these new AD samples, Alans and Saltovo-Mayaki):

UZOO74 - Red Deer Island, Karelia - 5500-5000 BC
A3 - Serteya VIII, Smolensk Oblast - 4000 BC
RISE434 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2880-2630 BC
RISE436 - Tiefbrunn, Bavaria - 2868-2580 BC
RISE446 - Bergrheinfeld, Bavaria - 2829-2465 BC
EUL9(99-3) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL11(99-2) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
EUL12(99-4) - Eulau, Sachsen-Anhalt - 2600 BC
RISE94 - Viby, Götaland - 2621-2472 BC
A8 - Naumovo, Pskov Oblast - 2500 BC
A9 - Serteya II, Smolensk Oblast - 2500 BC
RISE61 - Kyndeløse, Zealand - 2650-2300 BC
ESP11 - Esperstedt, Saxony-Anhalt - 2473-2348 BC
RISE431 - Łęki Małe, Greater Poland - 2286-2048 BC
Rogalin1 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
Rogalin2 near Hrubieszów, Lublin Region - 2000 BC
RISE42 - Marbjerg, Zealand - 2191-1972 BC
HAL36 - Halberstadt, Sachsen-Anhalt - 1113-1021 BC
Tanais kurgan - Azov steppes, Maeotia - at least 1000 BC
M10 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
M11 - Lichtenstein Cave near Dorste, Lower Saxony - 1000 BC
RISE598 - Turlojiškė, Sudovia - 908-485 BC
A4 - Anashkino hillfort, Pskov Oblast - 800-400 BC

Tomenable
23-09-15, 13:10
Map of R1a samples in aDNA: http://s14.postimg.org/5ki48186p/Ancient_R1a_map.png

http://s14.postimg.org/5ki48186p/Ancient_R1a_map.png

List of R1a samples in aDNA: http://s21.postimg.org/72hftwz7b/Ancient_R1a_samples.png

http://s21.postimg.org/72hftwz7b/Ancient_R1a_samples.png

Goga
23-09-15, 15:25
Alans were Iranid (Aryan) R1a-Z94 (from R1a-Z93) folks and not Europoid R1a-Z283. R1a-Z94 evolved from R1a-Z93 on the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a is also from the Iranian Plateau. Alanian R1a-Z94 is native to Kurdistan and Persia

Goga
23-09-15, 15:35
Sarmartians have J1, Alanians R1a-Z94; for me it's an ultimate proof that those folks came from the (Kurdish) Zagros Mountains.

arvistro
23-09-15, 15:47
For you it is. :)

Goga
23-09-15, 15:58
For you it is. :)Some folks don't like to hear the real truth. Ossetians are the modern descendants of the ancient Alanians, because Ossetians the only people in that region that speak also an Iranic language.

" Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran. "

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2004.00131.x/abstract

Alan
23-09-15, 16:22
For you it is. :)

To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. Both worshipped the Sky though. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times. I doubt that Sarmatians, Scythians or whoever would have fit perfectly in one of the both categories. I see them more like the missing link between modern North Caucasians/Tajiks and Russians/Ukrainians based on Genetics As seen on my map above. However I also think just like the Bronze Age Armenian sample the Medes and even Persians where slightly more Northern shifted like modern North Caucasians compared to modern Kurds and Persians.

I think all groups of the Northern Middle East are 8-15% Semite admixed, while ancient Iron Age groups would have been moe 4-8% admixed (from mixing with Babylonians and Assyrians). Than in more modern time came a second wave of Semite admixture with Arabs what probably doubled this numbers.

What is nowadays North Caucasus like must have been by Bornze and Iron Age East Anatolian, Mesopotamian, South Caucasus and Iranian Plateau like. Ancient North Caucasus was probably even more Northern shifted similar to Yamna samples themselves. Since Myakop, Yamna and Kura Araxes seem to form a cultural complex.

arvistro
23-09-15, 16:47
To explain myself - it is not "ultimate proof" for me and I cant see how it can be
Other than that I am rather agnostic to where those folk came from.

Goga
23-09-15, 17:34
To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times.?

What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

arvistro
23-09-15, 18:21
The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...
.. that makes you of the race of GODS!!
I am sorry for all the times I disputed with you, the reason was I did not know...

Alan
23-09-15, 18:26
?

What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC.

When you want to be taken serious, stop talking about Iranoid here and there when it comes to genetics. typology is something what does not 100% correlate with genetics. Otherwise no one will even read your comments just an advice.

EDIT: Now you declarted yourself to a God, wow thats the final stage.

Fluffy
23-09-15, 18:45
?

What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

This is ridiculous. No such thing happened. Gods coming down to start civilization? Wtf

Goga
23-09-15, 19:00
When you want to be taken serious, stop talking about Iranoid here and there when it comes to genetics. typology is something what does not 100% correlate with genetics. Otherwise no one will even read your comments just an advice.

EDIT: Now you declarted yourself to a God, wow thats the final stage.When I'm talking about Iranid race I do mean folks who speak Iranic as their native language. The same folks who always spoke Iranic as their native language. 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago. People who gave birth to that Iranic language were Iranid.


I never said that I'm a GOD. What are you talking about?? I'm just retelling a story of the Sumerians and their encountering with the Annunaki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki

Those who gave the Sumerians their knowledge and their reasoning. Nice Hollywood movie for you about Annunaki : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sftuxbvGwiU



But, for you there is no GOD, but Allah, right? The only truth is that there is no such thing as Allah at all, but many many sky Gods.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 19:40
Alans were Iranid (Aryan) R1a-Z94 (from R1a-Z93) folks and not Europoid R1a-Z283.

R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 both originated from R1a-Z645 around 3,000 - 4,000 BC (or 2,500 - 4,500 BC).

So question is where did that ancestral R1a-Z645 person whose descendants were Z93 and Z283 live?

By the way - R1a of Xiaohe mummies from the Tarim Basin was not Z93, according to Hui Zhou:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31576-What-branch-of-R1a-M417-could-Caucasoid-mummies-of-Xiaohe-belong-to

Sile
23-09-15, 19:51
?

What are you talking about? One part of the Iranid people in the Steppes / Northern Caucasus came from Kurdistan, other Eastern Iranid part came from BMAC. By the time when Iranid (Aryan) folks arrived and settled down in the Steppes, they were already mixed with Europoid and Mongoloid type of humans. So, you can't say that ancient Alanian and Sarmatians were 'pure' Iranid folks, because they already absorbed and mixed with the natives of their new home. So ancient Sarmatians and Alanians were much LESS Iranid than the Medes & Perisans. Because the Medes stayed in their own homeland, while Sarmatians migrated out of it and mixed with new people in for them the NEW world. But at the end of the day Iranid race evolved in the mountains of the Zagros and they were West Asian! The GENES are from Zagros. The Aryan URHEIMAT is Zagros Mountains. Zagros, the ANCIENT world is the land of the GODS, where GODS came down to earth and started civilizations on our planet...

Gods ?...........there are no GODS, there is GOD..............the same GOD that stone-age man, ancient man, dark-age man and modern man pray to..........

It's only these "religious mafia gangs" who state otherwise ..............the jews, christians, muslims, hindi, budha's and all the rest.

If you have proof that there are GODS, then the ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Norse and everyone else is correct and modern religions are wrong.

Goga
23-09-15, 19:55
R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 both originated from R1a-Z645 around 3,000 - 4,000 BC (or 2,500 - 4,500 BC).

So question is where did that ancestral R1a-Z645 person whose descendants were Z93 and Z283 live.

By the way - R1a of Xiaohe mummies from the Tarim Basin was not Z93, according to Hui Zhou:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31576-What-branch-of-R1a-M417-could-Caucasoid-mummies-of-Xiaohe-belong-to
I'm R1a*. And I'm neither Z93 nor Z283. And I'm originally, native to Kurdistan, more precisely Shengal, Northern Mesopotamia. Where Sunni Muslim Daesh monkeys, Semitic Jews and the USA killed my people. Y-DNA hg. R1a is the most diverse in West Asia. In West Asia you can find R1a ancestral to Z93 and Z283 and even more archaic M417. In West Asia you can find all kind of ancient R1a. The R1a* to which I do belong is the most ancient one.

R1a is from R1*. And R1 is related to R2. The split between R1 and R2 occurred somewhere between West Asia and SouthCentral Asia. The split between R1a and R1b occured on the Iranian Plateau.


R1a-Z93, R1a-Z94, R1a-Z95 are all from the Iranian Plateau. R1a-Z95 (with other haplogroups) from BMAC invaded Hindu-Kush (India)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg

Tomenable
23-09-15, 20:13
The split between R1 and R2 occurred somewhere between West Asia and SouthCentral Asia.

How do you know this? So far we only have one sample of R from ancient DNA, and that was Siberian Mal'ta boy.

Mal'ta boy (with R* haplogroup) was buried close to Lake Baikal. Ice Age refugia existed in that region.

Here is what Jean Manco from Anthrogenica wrote about that: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4869-Revisiting-the-issue-of-quot-Ice-Age-refugia-quot-in-the-context-of-WHG-SHG-EHG-ancestries/page4


The important thing that we have learned from the recent spate of ancient DNA results is that ANE [Ancient North Eurasian autosomal component] and Y-DNA R did not come from an ice age refuge in Europe. The refuge was in Siberia. Any hunter-gatherer in Europe with an element of ANE had ancestors from Siberia. This included EHG and SHG. Foragers with ANE and Y-DNA R did not arrive in Europe until long after the Ice Age maximum.

I hope this map makes matters clear:

http://s13.postimg.org/lwt6blh2v/Ice_Age_Max_Map.gif

http://s13.postimg.org/lwt6blh2v/Ice_Age_Max_Map.gif

I should have added ANE to Y-DNA R in my key.

(...)

I look at DNA samples in their cultural context.

The regions I outlined in red contain hunter-gatherer sites that survived the LGM. These refuge areas were relatively protected in the Ice Age. The coniferous forest refuge near Lake Baikal included the Mal'ta site (24,000 years ago) with a boy carrying ANE autosomal and Y-DNA R. Early pottery was present in the Lake Baikal region - the type that arrived in the Samara region on the Volga c. 7000 BC.

The refuge around the upper Yenisei river was sheltered by mountains. It include..d the site at Afontova Gora, with a male carrying ANE (17,000 years ago). This site had pressure blade-making technology. This complex technique was most probably handed down within families and so would have spread by migration. Like pottery, it arrived between the Urals and the Caspian in the Mesolithic. It also reached Lapland by a more northerly route about 5836 BC.

The major barrier was the expanded Caspian, which butted up against the Urals, as David Anthony pointed out in The Horse, The Wheel and Language. It was not completely impassible, but it seems that the bands of hunter-gatherers who clustered around the Yenisei and Lake Baikal were more tempted to roam from their refuge after the climate improved.


It seems to me people are a bit resistant to all the evidence pointing to R not being anywhere in Europe until the Mesolithic. As you note, the evidence is for refugia in south-central Siberia/Altai and thereabouts as where both R and Q wintered out the LGM. Due to archaeological considerations and the huge geographical gap between that part of Asia and the Gravettians in Europe, I certainly feel R1 couldnt be in two places at the same time during the LGM. AFAIK evidence of contact between east-central Siberia/Altai and Europe is absent (we all looked hard for it) before and during the LGM and indeed until after the Younger Dryas IMO.


Even though the art of the culture that the Mal'ta boy belonged to is different from the true Gravettian art of Europe I still find it interesting that the Mal'ta boy belongs to mtDNA haplogroup U just like the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Europe although of a different subclade. Haplogroup U sure seems to have spread far and wide very early on.

Goga
23-09-15, 20:18
If you have proof that there are GODS, then the ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Norse and everyone else is correct and modern religions are wrong.Aliens, Gods, Annunaki, Angels you can call them whatever you want. I do really believe that modern Abrahamic (/Semitic) religions are wrong. But at the end of the day modern religions are as ridiculous as the ancient one. Religion is still a religion. At least ancient religions were more fun, so let me have some fun ...

Tomenable
23-09-15, 20:21
Let's remember that haplogroups R and Q are closely related (both descend from P).

In those Siberian Ice Age Refugia between the Ob River and the Lake Baikal also Q1a1-F1215 was found:


Afontova-Gora2, Yenisei River Bank, Krasnoyarsk (Altai, South Siberia of Russia), 17000 years ago: Q1a1-F1215

Goga
23-09-15, 20:22
How do you know this? So far we only have one sample of R from ancient DNA, and that was Siberian Mal'ta boy.

Mal'ta boy (with R* haplogroup) was buried close to Lake Baikal. Ice Age refugia existed in that region.

Here is what Jean Manco from Anthrogenica wrote about that: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4869-Revisiting-the-issue-of-quot-Ice-Age-refugia-quot-in-the-context-of-WHG-SHG-EHG-ancestries/page4
Mal'ta boy was 20000 years old. I’m talking about R1* and R2*. You will find most of R2 in SouthCentral Asia and not in Siberia. And ancient R1b, R1a on the Iranian Plateau.


Maybe there was a split between R* and Q* from P in Siberia, but that was at least 25000 years ago, so not really relevant in this case

Tomenable
23-09-15, 20:25
]R1a ancestral to Z93 and Z283 and even more archaic M417

M417 is actually not much older than Z645, time of the most recent common ancestor is only a bit older, formation time is older.

Two main branches descended from M417 are Z645 and CTS4385 (the main branch of which is L664). M417 looks very Indo-European.


Mal'ta boy was 20000 years old. I’m talking about R1* and R2*. You will find most of R2 in South Central Asia and not in Siberia. Maybe there was a split between R* and Q* from P in Siberia, but that was at least 25000 years ago, so not really relevant in this case

Mal'ta boy was actually even older - 24000 years old. The split between R and Q according to YFull estimates was 31500 years ago.

==============================

R haplogroup tree:

http://s27.postimg.org/4cou8gkgz/R_Y_haplogroup_Tree.png

http://s27.postimg.org/4cou8gkgz/R_Y_haplogroup_Tree.png

And R1a-Z645 tree:

http://s1.postimg.org/quxoq9dxb/Z645.png

http://s1.postimg.org/quxoq9dxb/Z645.png

Formation time and Time of Most Recent Common Ancestors estimates are from YFull. Some estimates may have changed a bit since I made these trees (YFull is updating their estimates all the time, but no dramatic changes has taken place, maybe ~100 years more or less in some cases):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z645/

According to some people, YFull estimates tend to be around 10% - 20% too young.

Goga
23-09-15, 20:36
M417 is actually not much older than Z645, time of the most recent common ancestor is only a bit older, formation time is older.

Two main branches descended from M417 are Z645 and CTS4385 (the main branch of which is L664). M417 looks very Indo-European.
Oh, what makes M417 Indo-European and not it's ancestors M17 or even M20?


Why couldn't R1b in Yamnaya be Indo-European or even J2a?

Personally I think that J2a was the most significant hg. among the PIEan speakers. You will find J2a in all Indo-European speaking countries. From England to India…


This topic is about Sarmatians and Alans, those who lived long after PIEans. And Alans belong to very modern Iranid R1a-Z94.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 20:41
^ Logical fallacies. I just claimed that M417 looks very Indo-European, I didn't claim anything about other haplogroups.


Why couldn't R1b in Yamnaya be Indo-European

IIRC, all Yamnaya R1b samples found so far belonged to R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L23* - and yes, they spoke Indo-European.

Goga
23-09-15, 20:46
^ Logical fallacies. I claimed that M417 looks Indo-European, I didn't claim anything about other haplogroups.True, but M417 doesn't look more Indo-European than R1b and even J2a. What makes M417 so different from other haplogroups?

R1b look also very Indo-European.
J2a looks also very Indo-European.
G2a looks also very Indo-European.
etc.


And once again, this topic is about Sarmatians and Alans, those who lived long after PIEans. And Alans belong to very modern Iranid R1a-Z94, evolved long after M417.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 20:56
R1b look also very Indo-European.
J2a looks also very Indo-European.
G2a looks also very Indo-European.
etc.G2a was spreading with Early European Farmers, not with Indo-Europeans. Today G2a is most common among Georgians, who are not Indo-European.

J2a does not look like being exclusively Indo-European either, it is widespread among many Non-Indo-European speaking populations as well.

Some branches of R1b look Indo-European indeed, but for example R1b-V88 is found among Chadic-speakers and R1b-M478 among Turkic-speakers.


And Alans belong to very modern Iranid R1a-Z94, evolved long after M417

TMRCA of M417 is estimated by YFull as ~5500 years ago, formation time of Z93 as ~5000 years ago and TMRCA of Z94 as ~4800 years ago.

So as you can see TMRCA of Z94 (descended from Z93) is only about 700 years younger than TMRCA of M417 - so not really "long after".

Goga
23-09-15, 21:02
G2a was spreading with Early European Farmers, not with Indo-Europeans. Today G2a is most common among Georgians, who are not Indo-European.

J2a does not look like being exclusively Indo-European either, it is widespread among many Non-Indo-European speaking populations as well.

Some branches of R1b look Indo-European indeed, but for example R1b-V88 is found among Chadic-speakers and R1b-M478 among Turkic-speakers.



TMRCA of M417 is estimated by YFull as ~5500 years ago, formation time of Z93 as ~5000 years ago and TMRCA of Z94 as ~4800 years ago.

So as you can see TMRCA of Z94 (descended from Z93) is only about 700 years younger than TMRCA of M417 - so not really "long after".Farmers were older than Indo-Europeans. By that time those who started to speak Indo-European already had farmer DNA in them. So G2a was already part of them.
J2a is one of the biggest haplogroups in all Indo-Europeans. It is one of the most prominent haplogroups among Italians, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Persians, SouthCentral Asian. It is even in India!

Sile
23-09-15, 21:14
It was recently stated than this Beslan sample was an Ossetian from North-caucasus from Balkar people ( a central-asian turkic origin ) also known to some as Alans

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...o.kwOSocRsvcoo (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo)

So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.

Goga
23-09-15, 21:23
It was recently stated than this Beslan sample was an Ossetian from North-caucasus from Balkar people ( a central-asian turkic origin ) also known to some as Alans

This is the map with samples asked to Afanasiev.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...o.kwOSocRsvcoo (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z6AHBTuUfQao.kwOSocRsvcoo)

So the North Ossetia Beslan is confirmed.Makes sense, Alans & Scythians (R1a-Z94/Z95) came from BMAC through Central Asia. Before they migrated into Europe they were already heavily mixed with Turkic tribes in the Steppes / Central Asia.

Scythians of the Steppes were not really Iranid anymore but had also Russian / Uralic (Europoid) and Turkic (Mongoloid) DNA in them.

Fluffy
23-09-15, 21:28
G2a was spreading with Early European Farmers, not with Indo-Europeans. Today G2a is most common among Georgians, who are not Indo-European.

J2a does not look like being exclusively Indo-European either, it is widespread among many Non-Indo-European speaking populations as well.

Some branches of R1b look Indo-European indeed, but for example R1b-V88 is found among Chadic-speakers and R1b-M478 among Turkic-speakers.



TMRCA of M417 is estimated by YFull as ~5500 years ago, formation time of Z93 as ~5000 years ago and TMRCA of Z94 as ~4800 years ago.

So as you can see TMRCA of Z94 (descended from Z93) is only about 700 years younger than TMRCA of M417 - so not really "long after".

It depends on the subclade of Haplogroup G. G2a3b1a is Indo European.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 21:28
Balkar people (...) also known to some as Alans

Balkars is a modern ethnic group, Alans is a historical ethnic group that no longer exists today.

Alans were Iranic-speakers, not Turkic-speakers. They were one of subdivisions of Sarmatians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alania

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_North_Ossetia-Alania

Tomenable
23-09-15, 21:36
Makes sense, Alans & Scythians (R1a-Z94/Z95) came from BMAC through Central Asia. Before they migrated into Europe they were already heavily mixed with Turkic tribes in the Steppes / Central Asia. Scythians of the Steppes were not really Iranid anymore but had also Russian / Uralic (Europoid) and Turkic (Mongoloid) DNA in them.Where would they mix with Mongoloid DNA, if there was no Mongoloid DNA to the west of the Altai Mountains at that time ???

Figure A below shows frequency (shades of green) of Mongoloid mtDNA in ancient DNA samples from times before the Iron Age:

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

Until the end of the Bronze Age there was no Mongoloid ancestry in populations living in what is now Kazakhstan:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

Check these sources concerning Caucasoid-Mongoloid mixing in Western Mongolia, Western China and Kazakhstan:

"Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

"Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers":

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314001161

"Physical Anthropology of Kazakh People and Their Genesis":

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7:physical-anthropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis

"Population of Kazakhstan from Bronze Epoch to Present (Paleoanthropological research)":

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Ismagulov/IsmagulovAnthropologyConclusionEn.htm

"Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age":

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2838831_1741-7007-8-15-1&req=4

"In the heartland of Eurasia: the multilocus genetic landscape of Central Asian populations":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20823912

Alan
23-09-15, 21:45
G2a was spreading with Early European Farmers, not with Indo-Europeans.
R1a, R1b spred with ANE mixed groups (teal farmers, EHG Hunters and Gatherers). J2 spred with mid-late Neolithic (teal likely ) farmers also. Non of the modern Haplogroups spred with Indo Europeans exclusively, to begin with.


Today G2a is most common among Georgians, who are not Indo-European.

Today R1a is as much common among the Kazakhs as among Europeans. G2a among Georgians looks more like a bottleneck effect. Shoudln't we know by now that modern distribution =/= ancient distribution?


J2a does not look like being exclusively Indo-European either, it is widespread among many Non-Indo-European speaking populations as well.

So do other Haplogroups see above^



Some branches of R1b look Indo-European indeed, but for example R1b-V88 is found among Chadic-speakers and R1b-M478 among Turkic-speakers.

True, R1b-V88 looks Levantine , while R1b-M478 is most likely a remnant of Iranic and Afanasevo culture

Fluffy
23-09-15, 21:46
He is known to be psycologically instable. Just ignore. Who said this?

Goga
23-09-15, 21:47
Where would they mix with Mongoloid DNA, if there was no Mongoloid DNA to the west of the Altai Mountains at that time ???This maps are pure speculation. How can you draw an genetic map before the Iron Age?

They found some 'East Eurasian' / Mongloid haplogroups among the Scythians, like mtDNA F2a and mtDNA D.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 21:49
while R1b-M478 is most likely a remnant of Iranic and Afanasevo culture

R1b-M478 is not found in any meaningful frequencies among Iranic-speaking populations today - only among Turkic-speakers.

Afanasievo samples were shown to be autosomally very similar to Sintashta samples, and Sintashta was R1a (two individuals).

Xiaohe mummies are also believed to be descended from Afanasievo culture by many researchers, and they were also R1a.


How can you draw an genetic map before the Iron Age?

Based on mtDNA samples from ancient DNA from the Bronze Age and from the Copper Age (as well as older samples).


They found some 'East Eurasian' / Mongloid haplogorups among the Scythians

Among which Scythians and from which periods? Siberian Scythians in the Mongolian Altai indeed had such haplogroups.

But Scythians living to the west of the Altai Mountains did not have such haplogroups before the Iron Age.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 21:54
Non of the modern Haplogroups spred with Indo Europeans exclusively, to begin with.

Of course, that's I wrote that we need to look at subclades, not at entire haplogroups.

R1a-M417 spread with Indo-Europeans exclusively. But older subclades of R1a, certainly not.


True, R1b-V88 looks Levantine

Today R1b-V88 is most common in Sub-Saharan Africans who speak Chadic languages.

And it was also found in one Neolithic farmer from Spain (that famous sample from Els Trocs cave).

A 17th century Black African slave buried on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin was also R1b-V88:

"Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean":

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/12/3669.full.pdf

Individual STM2 - most likely ethnic Hausa (map) was R1b-V88 and L3b1a (mtDNA):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people

http://s30.postimg.org/k75ra4vv5/Samples.png

Three 17th century Africans - two women and one man - buried on the island of Saint Martin, their time of death was dated to between 1660 and 1688. Despite the tropical climate it was possible to extract DNA from those bones and compare it with modern African ethnic groups.

The man (STM2) was - as written above - R1b-V88 and L3b1a, while two women (STM1 and STM3) were L3d1b2 and L2a1f.

Goga
23-09-15, 21:58
Among which Scythians and from which periods? Siberian Scythians in the Mongolian Altai indeed had such haplogroups.

But Scythians living to the west of the Altai Mountains did not have such haplogroups before the Iron Age.I was talking about Scythians in Central Asia. And they have Mongoloid ancestry.

Like I said Iranid Saka / Scythians came from BMAC. Firstly they migrated into Central Asia and mixed with the Mongoloid folks (mtDNA F2a & D), later they went to the west and mixed with the Europoid/Uralic folks. At the end of their journey they lost most of their Iranid DNA. Only Iranid R1a-Z93 and other Iranid Y-DNA haplogroups remained in them.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 22:06
Can you give links to ancient DNA studies about Scythians from Central Asia in question ???

BTW, the Altai Mountains are actually located in Central Asia as well - in eastern part of Central Asia.

In post #39 I provided links to studies which say when and where did Scythians acquire Mongoloid ancestry.

Modern populations of Central Asia are mixed, but Turkic-speakers tend to have more of East Asian admixture.

Circles show linguistic affinity (violet - IE; yellow - Turkic), red in pie graphs show % of Mongoloid ancestry:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TJCuJVizYSI/AAAAAAAAClY/KT6PkWSIZnM/s1600/centralasianmartinez.jpg


Like I said Iranid Saka / Scythians came from BMAC.Mainstream theory says that Indo-Iranians came to BMAC from the north, from the steppe - see this book:

"The Origin of the Indo-Iranians":

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf

It can take some time to load.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 22:25
When I'm talking about Iranid race I do mean folks who speak Iranic as their native language.

As you noticed, modern Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia have some Mongoloid / Turkic admixture.

But those who live in the Middle East - such as Kurds - are also not "pure", they just have different admixtures.

Anatolian Iranic-speakers have some Negroid (Sub-Saharan) admixture resulting from Muslim slave trade:

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

Source: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(15)00949-5

================================================== ==

So there is no "pure Iranid race" anymore.

Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia mixed with Mongoloids, those in the Middle East - with Negroids.

Modern Kurds have a Sub-Saharan admixture (as do all of modern Southern Europeans, by the way).

About Muslim trade of Sub-Saharan African slaves:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbFhGSEF_s0

Goga
23-09-15, 22:25
Can you give links to ancient DNA studies about Scythians from Central Asia in question ???

BTW, the Altai Mountains are actually located in Central Asia as well - in eastern part of Central Asia.

In post #39 I provided links to studies which say when and where did Scythians acquire Mongoloid ancestry.

Mainstream theory says that Indo-Iranians came to BMAC from the north, from the steppe - see this book:

"The Origin of the Indo-Iranians":

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf

It can take some time to load.Clisson, I. et al. 2002. Genetic analysis of human remains from a double inhumation in a frozen kurgan in Kazakhstan (Berel site, early 3rd century BC). International Journal of Legal Medicine. 116:304–308

Ricaut, F. et al. 2004. Genetic Analysis of a Scytho-Siberian Skeleton and Its Implications for Ancient Central Asian Migrations. Human Biology. 76 (1): 109–125

Ricaut,F. et al. 2004. Genetic Analysis and Ethnic Affinities From Two Scytho-Siberian Skeletons. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 123:351–360


http://www.degruyter.com/view/books/9783110266306/9783110266306.93/9783110266306.93.xml

etc.


It's not a mainstream theory, it's just a Mallory theory. Mallory is wrong, he is a joke. I found out that ALL the Eurocentric folks only using Mallory as their source, lol. His book is their Bible.


BMAC is was an East Iranic civilization, closely related to the Mesopotamia and West Asia. Culture, pottery, architecture was very similar to the Mesopotamia and West Iran.

There was contact with people in Central Asia (Andronovo) but they were not the same. Like I said, later on, East Iranid folks from BMAC migrated into the Steppes.


Scythians were East Iranic folks...

Goga
23-09-15, 22:35
As you noticed, modern Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia have some Mongoloid admixture.

But those who live in the Middle East - such as Kurds - are also not "pure", they just have different admixtures.

Anatolian Iranic-speakers have some Negroid (Sub-Saharan) admixture resulting from Muslim slave trade:

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

http://s10.postimg.org/xmefnmvmx/Effects_of_Roman_and_Arab_Slave_Trade.png

Source: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(15)00949-5

================================================== ==

So there is no "pure Iranid race" anymore.

Iranic-speakers who live in Central Asia mixed with Mongoloids, those in the Middle East - with Negroids.

So what, what has this to do with this topic? I'm sure that most native Europeans have more African DNA than my people. Almost every human, maybe even folks in China have some Negroid DNA in them (from Mongols). I don't think 0,1 ~ 0,5 % of Negroid DNA is much. Of all Iranic speakers, Kurds are still the closest to the ancient Iranid folks.

And I believe its indirectly incorporated into the Iranid DNA from the Semitic folks, like Arabs, Jews and Assyrians than direct from Africans.


And so what that there is some Negroid DNA in Irand folks? It doesn't destroy our genes, more diverse and fresh blood is making human DNA / body stronger.

Alan
23-09-15, 22:40
R1b-M478 is not found in any meaningful frequencies among Iranic-speaking populations today - only among Turkic-speakers.

Oh my my, modern distribution=/= ancient distrubition there is absolutely no way that R1b-M478 gave rise among Turkic speakers. Take a look at the distribution of this Haplogroup. It is around East of the Caspian. Simply where once Iranic speakes such as the Dahae lived. Why no R1b closer to the homeland of Turkic speakers in the Altais? Simply because they picked it up from the locals (Iranic and Afanasaevo ) in Central Asia. Simple as that.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 22:42
Goga,

Sub-Saharan African admixture:

http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=17672&view=findpost&p=259061

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3714-Post-Neolithic-impact-lesser-as-we-move-south-in-Europe-fair-comment&p=64896&viewfull=1#post64896

http://i62.tinypic.com/kbadzm.png

Alan
23-09-15, 22:45
Of course, that's I wrote that we need to look at subclades, not at entire haplogroups.

R1a-M417 spread with Indo-Europeans exclusively. But older subclades of R1a, certainly not.

No it did not. YOu have no prove for that. If R1a-m417 was among Indo Europeans (Surely it was) than it must have been picked up from someone else. Isn't R1b more likely the PIE Haplogroup from our knowledge now? If so than R1a-m417 must have been picked up from someone else.




Today R1b-V88 is most common in Sub-Saharan Africans who speak Chadic languages.

And it was also found in one Neolithic farmer from Spain (that famous sample from Els Trocs cave).

A 17th century Black African slave buried on the Caribbean island of Saint Martin was also R1b-V88:

"Genome-wide ancestry of 17th-century enslaved Africans from the Caribbean":



For the milion times modern distribution =/=ancient one. I can't believe that anyone with knowledge about genetics would argue that V88 was spred with Chadic speakers, especially not if it turns up in Neolithic Spain with EEF ancestry and looks totally West Eurasian. V88 ancestry is most likely the Levant or nearby region. R1b-V88 among Chadic speakers could be a signal of migration from ancient Egypt.

Tomenable
23-09-15, 22:45
Oh my my, modern distribution =/= ancient distrubition there is absolutely no way that R1b-M478 gave rise among Turkic speakers.

There is also no evidence that it was originally Indo-European, it could be neither.


modern distribution =/= ancient distrubition

I know - but don't you think that at least some of modern Iranic groups should have it?

The problem is that it is not common among ANY group of modern Iranic-speakers.


especially not if it turns up in Neolithic Spain with EEF ancestry and looks totally West Eurasian.

People from Neolithic Spain had also considerable amounts of Sub-Saharan ancestry:

See Genetiker's and Maciamo's analyses of El Portalon samples from Late Neolithic Iberia:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31558-Analysis-of-Chalcolithic-El-Portalon-samples-(Günther-at-al-2015)


Another surprising thing in Genetiker's runs of K=17 admixtures (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/analyses-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/) is that Copper and Bronze Age samples from El Portalon cave all have between 2 and 5% of Bushman-and-Pygmy admixture, except the unusual ATP20 which has 0% but 28% of Veddoid, 8% of Negroid and 7.8% of Amerindian) and ATP2 which has a stunning 28% of sub-Saharan African (14% of Bushman-and-Pygmy + 12.47% Western-Negroid + 1.42% Eastern-Negroid) ! The modern Basques are almost 100% European in admixtures, so how do their presumed ancestors show up with such high non-European admixture ?

Goga
23-09-15, 22:45
Goga,

Sub-Saharan African admixture:I see Kurds (North Iraq, NorthEast Syria, West Iran, SouthEast Turkey) have 0,3% on this map so what is the point showing this, bro? I do even see 0,3% in Ukraine and Russia…

Tomenable
23-09-15, 22:51
R1b-V88 among Chadic speakers could be a signal of migration from ancient Egypt.

Old Kingdom Egyptian DNA was actually more African that modern Egyptian DNA - see here:

(BTW, it seems that one of Old Kingdom Y-DNA samples was also J-M267, or J1, haplogroup):

"Ancient Egyptians and their DNA": http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2147-Ancient-Egyptians-and-their-DNA

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5383-Saltovo-Mayaki-Results/page5


@beyoku lays out the following Old Kingdom (OK) and Middle Kingdom (MK) Y-SNP and mtDNA results:

Old Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3f
A-M13, L0a1
B-M150, L3d
E-M2, L3e5
E-M2, L2a1
E-M123, L5a1
E-M35, R0a
E-M41, L2a1
E-M41, L1b1a
E-M75, M1
E-M78, L4b
J-M267, L3i
R-M173, L2
T-M184, L0a

Middle Kingdom Samples:
A-M13, L3x
E-M75, L2a1
E-M78, L3e5
E-M78, M1a
E-M96, L4a
E-V6, L3
B-M112, L0b

If this data stands, then it looks like the ancient Egyptian gene pool was much more African in both Y-DNA and mtDNA than it is today. Of interest to most who post on this site is the lone R1+ sample and the complete lack of mtDNA HV, H, K and U.

"Egyptian Ancient Dna from the Old and Middle Kingdoms":

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28925-Egyptian-Ancient-Dna-from-the-Old-and-Middle-Kingdoms

A comment by Maciamo:


If that is true that is great news as we finally have plenty of Y-DNA from ancient Egypt. There is a surprisingly high percentage of haplogroup A and B compared to modern Egyptians, and that practically all the maternal lineages are African.

Another discussion:

"Egyptian Old Kingdom and New Kingdom Ancient DNA results":

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=1

Tomenable
23-09-15, 23:08
Isn't R1b more likely the PIE Haplogroup from our knowledge now?

We have only eastern branch of R1b (so-called ht35) in Yamnaya folks. So far there is only evidence of Z2103 and L23* in Yamnaya. But we now have a controversial R1b-M269 from Iberia, which is older than IE migration to Iberia (individual ATP3 who lived ca. 3516 - 3362 BC).

Please tell me exactly which R1b subclades are PIE according to you ???

Certainly not all of R1b is Indo-European - are you claiming, that Neolithic V88 is Indo-European too? Ancient Egyptians were not IE.

Another thing - why do you think that PIEs had only one haplogroup?

We already have one I2a2a1b1b2 sample from Yamnaya, which shows that Yamnaya folks were not limited to just R1b. And when it comes R1b, to be honest - we do not have any L51 or P312 from Yamnaya. Most of Yamnaya R1b found so far is Z2103, the rest is L23*. All of it is L51- (negative). So what evidence do we have that L51 or P312 was in Yamnaya? No evidence. But there is evidence that some I2a2a1b1b2 was there.

So far Yamnaya Y-DNA does not look like it could be ancestral to R1b-L51. Rather, it looks like a related cousin branch.

At the moment, things look like this for Yamnaya (Y-DNA: R1b-Z2103 + I2a2a1b1b2 + R1b-L23*):

http://s23.postimg.org/sctmrpp7f/Yamnaya.png

http://s23.postimg.org/sctmrpp7f/Yamnaya.png

Tomenable
24-09-15, 01:04
Oh, what makes M417 Indo-European and not it's ancestors M17 or even M20?

M17 (M198) could be Indo-European as well, but older subclades - rather not.

Hunter buried in Karelia belonged to R1a1* and I don't think that he spoke IE.

I also don't think that any branch of R1b older than M269 was Indo-European.

And even in case of M269 it isn't certain if it was exclusively spread by PIEs.

See for example this controversial M269 from Iberia (ATP3), too old to be IE.

Goga
24-09-15, 01:28
M17 (M198) could be Indo-European as well, but older subclades - rather not.

Hunter buried in Karelia belonged to R1a1* and I don't think that he spoke IE.

I also don't think that any branch of R1b older than M269 was Indo-European.

And even in case of M269 it isn't certain if it was exclusively spread by PIEs.

See for example this controversial M269 from Iberia (ATP3), too old to be IE.Yeah, I do agree on all these point with you!

But maybe is IE language a few thousands of years older than we think. We're still not 100% sure about the age of that langage.

Tomenable
24-09-15, 02:04
But maybe is IE language a few thousands of years older than we think. We're still not 100% sure about the age of that langage.

Yeah, this is also possible.

LeBrok
24-09-15, 02:21
Yeah, I do agree on all these point with you!

But maybe is IE language a few thousands of years older than we think. We're still not 100% sure about the age of that langage. Language could be older easily. However at this point we have no idea who's language it was. R1b hunter gatherers, R1a HGs, Farmers from Caucasus and south of it, or Cucuteni? Likewise we don't know who gave them religion. Their material culture was from many places and local horses from the Steppe. So far most likely it looks that all these elements gathered together in Yamnaya, the Steppe, together with mixing of farmers and HGs genes, giving birth to culture that we know as Indo-European, just before their expansion. Before Yamanya, IEs didn't exist, just parts of their culture, and parts of their genetic material, in surrounding ethnic groups of the region.
I suspect it is on parallel with USA today. Where the Americans are coming from or Brazilians?

Tomenable
24-09-15, 02:26
The discovery of ATP3 proves, that R1b-M269 was present both in Iberia and in the Pontic-Caspian steppe at the same time.

I wonder if ATP3 was positive for L51 clade, now prevalent in Western Europe? All Yamnaya samples were negative for L51:

http://s24.postimg.org/be36zsq5h/West_East_Split.png

http://s24.postimg.org/be36zsq5h/West_East_Split.png

It seems that L23 split very early on (before 3300 BC) and one branch (L51) went to Iberia, another branch to the steppe.

The idea of the "massive migration from the steppe" of L51 may be wrong. It could be spreading from Iberian Bell Beaker.

Of course ATP3 itself predates Bell Beaker, but - as we know - the oldest Bell Beaker sites are from Iberia.

So if R1b-L51 was present in Iberia already before Beaker, it could be spreading outside of Iberia later on, with Beaker.

Tomenable
24-09-15, 02:45
However at this point we have no idea who's language it was. R1b hunter gatherers, R1a HGs, Farmers from Caucasus and south of it

PIE language could develop as a lingua franca used by several groups to communicate, as they merged into a single culture. So basically all groups that you mentioned above could participate in development of PIE language, when they merged culturally into a single community.

All Indo-European languages took their words for several things - such as "wheel" - from the same, common PIE root.

It shows that PIE language was spoken in times when these inventions - including wheels - already existed.

Either early PIE speakers were the ones who invented wheels, or PIE language emerged after the invention of wheels.

LeBrok
24-09-15, 03:16
PIE language could develop as a lingua franca used by several groups to communicate, as they merged into a single culture. So basically all groups that you mentioned above could participate in development of PIE language, when they merged culturally into a single community. Exactly like English language developed in England from few sources. However, judging by complicated grammar, IE language most likely comes from one source, just increasing vocabulary with borrowed words from others around. Foreign languages introduced over new population usually lose complexity. Like Italian compared to Latin, not mentioning English.
I rote about this observation here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26890-Is-complexity-of-grammar-pointing-to-roots-of-a-language?p=383521#post383521




Either early PIE speakers were the ones who invented wheels, or Could be, or wheels were invented independently in couple of places, like farming. It is not only a wheel but whole technology of a wagon having IE names.
https://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/pie-n-mapa_woz.jpg

We know that Sumerians used wagons, do we know Sumerian vocabulary about its technology? Question to Taranis, I guess.



PIE language emerged after the invention of wheels. In this case the word for a wheel would came from old language. If it was invented somewhere else it would have come with its foreign name.

Tomenable
24-09-15, 03:22
In this case the word for a wheel would came from old language.

True, but that word would be incorporated to vocabulary of PIE language as a loanword.

So it would be common to all PIE-speakers as well, even if it had older origins.


We know that Sumerians used wagons, do we know Sumerian vocabulary about its technology?Good question! What was Sumerian word for "wheel" or for "wagon" ???


However, judging by complicated grammar, IE language most likely comes from one source, just increasing vocabulary with borrowed words from others around. Foreign languages introduced over new population usually lose complexity. Like Italian compared to Latin, not mentioning English.But Italian is not a "language introduced over new population".

Actually - it was Latin which was spoken around the whole of the Mediterranean Sea, while Italian is spoken only in Italy.

So we have a decreasing population of speakers in this case.

Of course all Romance languages are descended from Latin, not just Italian. So check the complexity of all of Romance.

Tomenable
24-09-15, 03:32
Of course originally Latin was spoken just in Latium, by ethnic Latins - one group of whom lived in Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

But later on, with the expansion of the Roman Empire, it became widespread around the entire Mediterranean Sea.

And only after the fall of Rome, it started to evolve separately into several Romance languages - all descended from Latin.

As long as the Roman Empire was intact, Latin was one language. There were dialects, but mutually intelligible ones.

After the fall of political structures and the breaking of cultural-economic contacts, divergence into many languages started.

LeBrok
24-09-15, 04:36
True, but that word would be incorporated to vocabulary of PIE language as a loanword.Exactly, so far we can't find this original word in any known language families, to my knowledge. Therefore it looks IE in origin.


But Italian is not a "language introduced over new population".

Actually - it was Latin which was spoken around the whole of the Mediterranean Sea, while Italian is spoken only in Italy.

So we have a decreasing population of speakers in this case.

Of course all Romance languages are descended from Latin, not just Italian. So check the complexity of all of Romance.What I meant is that Latin is the source language of all Romance languages. Its complexity of grammar is higher than any Romance languages or pig Latin spoken elsewhere during Roman Empire. Latin was also introduced to other tribes of Italian peninsula, therefore they learned Latin as a second language, hence creating simpler Italian language. Well, many varieties of it, till unification as one Italian language in modern times.

LeBrok
24-09-15, 04:42
Of course originally Latin was spoken just in Latium, by ethnic Latins - one group of whom lived in Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

But later on, with the expansion of the Roman Empire, it became widespread around the entire Mediterranean Sea.

And only after the fall of Rome, it started to evolve separately into several Romance languages - all descended from Latin.

As long as the Roman Empire was intact, Latin was one language. There were dialects, but mutually intelligible ones.

After the fall of political structures and the breaking of cultural-economic contacts, divergence into many languages started. Mind you that the written records of Latin language from Roman Empire are from educated elite who spoke Latin fluently. We don't have records of local "Latin" dialects from conquered nations. Do we know how peasants spoke Latin, or pig Latin, in villages in Iberia, Gallia or today's Northern Italy, or Germanics who invaded Italy? In this time it meant 90% of population.

epoch
24-09-15, 11:29
Mind you that the written records of Latin language from Roman Empire are from educated elite who spoke Latin fluently. We don't have records of local "Latin" dialects from conquered nations. Do we know how peasants spoke Latin, or pig Latin, in villages in Iberia, Gallia or today's Northern Italy, or Germanics who invaded Italy? In this time it meant 90% of population.

We have a fairly good idea of Vulgar Latin. From Cicero on hints are given:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgar_Latin#Sources

Sile
24-09-15, 20:50
Exactly like English language developed in England from few sources. However, judging by complicated grammar, IE language most likely comes from one source, just increasing vocabulary with borrowed words from others around. Foreign languages introduced over new population usually lose complexity. Like Italian compared to Latin, not mentioning English.
I rote about this observation here:
[/COLOR]http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26890-Is-complexity-of-grammar-pointing-to-roots-of-a-language?p=383521#post383521



Could be, or wheels were invented independently in couple of places, like farming. It is not only a wheel but whole technology of a wagon having IE names.
https://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/pie-n-mapa_woz.jpg[COLOR=#333333]

We know that Sumerians used wagons, do we know Sumerian vocabulary about its technology? Question to Taranis, I guess.


In this case the word for a wheel would came from old language. If it was invented somewhere else it would have come with its foreign name.

Goga was correct.............iranian on the steppes

Angela
24-09-15, 23:09
Old Kingdom Egyptian DNA was actually more African that modern Egyptian DNA - see here:

(BTW, it seems that one of Old Kingdom Y-DNA samples was also J-M267, or J1, haplogroup):

"Ancient Egyptians and their DNA": http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2147-Ancient-Egyptians-and-their-DNA

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5383-Saltovo-Mayaki-Results/page5



"Egyptian Ancient Dna from the Old and Middle Kingdoms":

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28925-Egyptian-Ancient-Dna-from-the-Old-and-Middle-Kingdoms

A comment by Maciamo:



Another discussion:

"Egyptian Old Kingdom and New Kingdom Ancient DNA results":

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=1

This is not from any kind of published paper, is it? Who knows if it's accurate or not? I think we should be careful about relying on unsubstantiated reports or rumors. Not that published studies always get everything right, but at least we can have some confidence that they've been peer reviewed, and there's some transparency in terms of methodology.


Another surprising thing in Genetiker's runs of K=17 admixtures (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/analyses-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/) is that Copper and Bronze Age samples from El Portalon cave all have between 2 and 5% of Bushman-and-Pygmy admixture, except the unusual ATP20 which has 0% but 28% of Veddoid, 8% of Negroid and 7.8% of Amerindian) and ATP2 which has a stunning 28% of sub-Saharan African (14% of Bushman-and-Pygmy + 12.47% Western-Negroid + 1.42% Eastern-Negroid) ! The modern Basques are almost 100% European in admixtures, so how do their presumed ancestors show up with such high non-European admixture ?



Some of these samples are of very low quality; I think caution is advised in drawing hard and fast conclusions from them.
Just generally, ancient samples sometimes turn up some SSA. It is not, however, the case that the EEF turn up SSA at levels higher than other ancient samples. In fact, it's sometimes the opposite.Take a look at the results for K7 and K12 for the WHG vs the EEF, for example. The highest SSA is actually consistently in the Ajvide samples, although, as I said, I don't think we should make too much of these kinds of results in such old samples.

7433

I frankly don't understand this discussion about V88. Is the discussion back to trying to make R1b an "African" lineage because so many Chadic speakers carry it? The most likely explanation, and I thought the consensus, is that V88 moved from the Levant down to the coast of North Africa and then south and west. The origin of R1a and R1b is another issue.

My personal feeling is that R1b arose somewhere between the steppe and the Levant, leaving it in position to move in numerous directions. Perhaps that means West Asia, perhaps that means the Eurasian steppe. The same question applies to R1a. Did it arise in the area of Iran or on the Eurasian steppe? It's ancient dna that will lead us closer to the answers.

MOESAN
25-09-15, 11:20
@ Sile
just a detail: is not slavic 'kolo' (or 'kola') a cognate of "wheel" same meaning (<<*kwkwlos) ??? and breton 'ahel' , welsh 'echel' doesn't have any link with *aks- ?(or it's a modern loanword? I don't know but Old-irish had 'aksila' I think, for 'axle'); that concerning accuracy of sources provided above.

MOESAN
25-09-15, 11:58
Oh, what makes M417 Indo-European and not it's ancestors M17 or even M20?


Why couldn't R1b in Yamnaya be Indo-European or even J2a?

Personally I think that J2a was the most significant hg. among the PIEan speakers. You will find J2a in all Indo-European speaking countries. From England to India…


This topic is about Sarmatians and Alans, those who lived long after PIEans. And Alans belong to very modern Iranid R1a-Z94.



Y-J2a is present among plenty of non I-Ean speakers and rare in Western and Northern and even North-Eastern Europe and its presence there can be explained by more than one event from (late?) Neolithic to Iron and even later - compared to Y-R1a and Y-R1b, no comment... it does not disprove your affirmation about its role in PIE but it shows you don't prove your own affirmation - concerning this very thread, Sarmatians and Alans, close enough, seems for auDNA - if I rely upon the document in this thread - being in an intermediate position between North Near-Eastern, North South-Asia and North Steppes - and we cannot assure they are direct descendants of former PIE speakers; they could very well be acculturated people at least partly, acculturated from where by who? that 's the question! I think the "urheimat" of PIE is not very far from this whole region, but where precisely? North or south Caucasus? or East Caspian?

MOESAN
25-09-15, 12:11
@Angela




Another surprising thing in Genetiker's runs of K=17 admixtures (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/analyses-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/) is that Copper and Bronze Age samples from El Portalon cave all have between 2 and 5% of Bushman-and-Pygmy admixture, except the unusual ATP20 which has 0% but 28% of Veddoid, 8% of Negroid and 7.8% of Amerindian) and ATP2 which has a stunning 28% of sub-Saharan African (14% of Bushman-and-Pygmy + 12.47% Western-Negroid + 1.42% Eastern-Negroid) ! The modern Basques are almost 100% European in admixtures, so how do their presumed ancestors show up with such high non-European admixture ?



Some of these samples are of very low quality; I think caution is advised in drawing hard and fast conclusions from them.
Just generally, ancient samples sometimes turn up some SSA. It is not, however, the case that the EEF turn up SSA at levels higher than other ancient samples. In fact, it's sometimes the opposite.Take a look at the results for K7 and K12 for the WHG vs the EEF, for example. The highest SSA is actually consistently in the Ajvide samples, although, as I said, I don't think we should make too much of these kinds of results in such old samples.

my answer to Angela's answer!
Genetiker has hos own conception for auDNA poolings and his analysis about this old Chalcolithic and Bronze Age spanish samples is partly made inaccurate for the low coverage of DNA; but ATP2 has a not so bad coverage and its results for DIVERSE and consequent amount of SSA DNA doesn't seem to me being not reliable at first sight: so a man - or his gran'father and Cy - having mated with African DNA rich people? not impossible for some prospectors (pioneers)...
that said OK for other SSA DNA among very old samples: under 3%: noise for the most or - why not? - archaic auDNA (I've as other European have): even if we can be cautious about ancient DNA, all the very ancient (40000 to 20000 BC) samples show a big diversity, and african and and amerindian and oceanian auDNA: is that only a mistake???

Maciamo
25-09-15, 19:14
Here are the complete Y-DNA and mtDNA results of the Alan and Sarmatian samples tested in this study.

7434

Angela
25-09-15, 21:18
@Angela




Another surprising thing in Genetiker's runs of K=17 admixtures (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/analyses-of-copper-and-bronze-age-spanish-genomes/) is that Copper and Bronze Age samples from El Portalon cave all have between 2 and 5% of Bushman-and-Pygmy admixture, except the unusual ATP20 which has 0% but 28% of Veddoid, 8% of Negroid and 7.8% of Amerindian) and ATP2 which has a stunning 28% of sub-Saharan African (14% of Bushman-and-Pygmy + 12.47% Western-Negroid + 1.42% Eastern-Negroid) ! The modern Basques are almost 100% European in admixtures, so how do their presumed ancestors show up with such high non-European admixture ?



Some of these samples are of very low quality; I think caution is advised in drawing hard and fast conclusions from them.
Just generally, ancient samples sometimes turn up some SSA. It is not, however, the case that the EEF turn up SSA at levels higher than other ancient samples. In fact, it's sometimes the opposite.Take a look at the results for K7 and K12 for the WHG vs the EEF, for example. The highest SSA is actually consistently in the Ajvide samples, although, as I said, I don't think we should make too much of these kinds of results in such old samples.

my answer to Angela's answer!
Genetiker has hos own conception for auDNA poolings and his analysis about this old Chalcolithic and Bronze Age spanish samples is partly made inaccurate for the low coverage of DNA; but ATP2 has a not so bad coverage and its results for DIVERSE and consequent amount of SSA DNA doesn't seem to me being not reliable at first sight: so a man - or his gran'father and Cy - having mated with African DNA rich people? not impossible for some prospectors (pioneers)...
that said OK for other SSA DNA among very old samples: under 3%: noise for the most or - why not? - archaic auDNA (I've as other European have): even if we can be cautious about ancient DNA, all the very ancient (40000 to 20000 BC) samples show a big diversity, and african and and amerindian and oceanian auDNA: is that only a mistake???

You're right, ATP2 has better coverage. It's certainly possible that this was a case of recent admixture. Every sample has to be looked at individually. I was mainly just expressing my sense that when we're dealing with ancient samples the calculators sometimes have difficulty assigning alleles to the available "modern" groups.

I think there might be a clue in the fact that, contrary to the assertion that was made, many EEF samples show less SSA in many calculators than do the European hunter gatherers. This might be because the EEF samples still cluster within modern European populations (i.e.the Sardinians) and very close to other southern European populations. The European hunter-gatherers, on the other hand, are outside the range of modern genetic variation, and the calculators may have more difficulty with those alleles because of that. After all, some of those H/G samples aren't all that much older than the EEF ones in central Europe, for example.

These are just some musings, though...You may be right and it's a function of the age of the samples and "unblended" archaic SSA. We'll see how more ancient dna and perhaps better methodology illuminates this in the future. I'll be very interested to see what signals are picked up in the ancient Anatolian samples of the upcoming Lazaridis paper. They might be different to some degree from the majority of the European farmers.

MOESAN
25-09-15, 21:59
This maps are pure speculation. How can you draw an genetic map before the Iron Age?

They found some 'East Eurasian' / Mongloid haplogroups among the Scythians, like mtDNA F2a and mtDNA D.

THis map I think is based upon metric phenotypes analysis - but it seems correct concerning the LITTLE aDNA we have for these regions, as a whole - except in Altai and Ienissei regions, the 'east-asian' (N and S) aDNA seems almost completely absent before Iron Age - and Scythians were firstly known about the 700/600 BC, what is Iron Age, I think... I avow I'm a bit amazed and made admirative by rhe Tomenable capacity to accumulate documentation: no sleeping??? LOL

Alan
26-09-15, 01:47
Additional informations brought up by the User Arame


Also a person with the nickname Fire on the Russian molgen (http://markoproxy.gq/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtLm1vbGdlbi5vcmcvaW5kZX gucGhwL3RvcGljLDg0NTkuMTUuaHRtbA%3D%3D) claims that he has viewed the STRs of Alanian and Sarmatians samples. In he's opinion they look like Iranian and West Indian. Also he thinks that the J1 doesn't look like Caucasian Z1828. But of course it is just a speculation on STRs.
They hope they will have more SNPs for better classification.



Sounds very much like the Sarmatian and Alan show close similarities to modern Indo_Iranic groups. That doesn't mean they are are identical. But possibly they had more of the Gedrosia component. Also the J1 sample doesn't seem to be the sort we find in modern Caucasian groups but of the type found in modern Indo-Iranians. Possibly some sort of J1b?
That pretty much confirms that the J1 is not something they took up in the North Caucasus/Steppes but rather brought with them.


Also another thing I catched up



I do not yet have data on SNP Z2124 Alan
We know that part of Alan Z94 and Z95 plus plus
The only full sovpadenets Alan negative on the Z2123
and has the SNIP
Z94 Plus
And these negative
CTS3605-, L657-, F2997-, F1345- CTS8448-, CTS6-, CTS3412-, Z2123-,



Alan and Sarmatians on the STR markers of the western India and from the western border of Iran


Could this be another indiciation in favor of Herodotus story of Sarmatian-Alan origin from Media?

Alan
26-09-15, 02:00
Additional informations brought up by the User Arame


Also a person with the nickname Fire on the Russian molgen (http://markoproxy.gq/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtLm1vbGdlbi5vcmcvaW5kZX gucGhwL3RvcGljLDg0NTkuMTUuaHRtbA%3D%3D) claims that he has viewed the STRs of Alanian and Sarmatians samples. In he's opinion they look like Iranian and West Indian. Also he thinks that the J1 doesn't look like Caucasian Z1828. But of course it is just a speculation on STRs.
They hope they will have more SNPs for better classification.



Sounds very much like the Sarmatian and Alan show close similarities to modern Iranic groups. That doesn't mean they are are identical. But possibly they had more of the Gedrosia component. Also the J1 sample doesn't seem to be the sort we find in modern Caucasian groups but of the type found in modern Iranic people. Possibly some sort of J1b?
That pretty much confirms that the J1 is not something they took up in the North Caucasus/Steppes but rather brought with them.


Also another thing I catched up



I do not yet have data on SNP Z2124 Alan
We know that part of Alan Z94 and Z95 plus plus
The only full sovpadenets Alan negative on the Z2123
and has the SNIP
Z94 Plus
And these negative
CTS3605-, L657-, F2997-, F1345- CTS8448-, CTS6-, CTS3412-, Z2123-,



Alan and Sarmatians on the STR markers of the south-western India and from the western border of Iran


Could this be another indiciation in favor of Herodotus story of Sarmatian-Alan origin from Media?

Alan
26-09-15, 04:38
On the Medes-Sarmatian connection


The peoples of Madai first dwelt in North-west Iran, being called the Medes along with Medan. Their capital was Hagmatana (Persian) or Agbatana in Greek. They were called Ma-da-ai, in the Assyrian inscriptions and became associated and linked up with the Medanites who invaded their territory from the west. Thus the names Madai and Medes were used interchangeably, but the Medanites formed the ruling class.
After the defeat of the Scythians in 584 BC, a colony of Medes was established along the Don River. They thus moved north of the Black Sea and into Scythia
The Greeks called them the Sauro-Matae and they spoke the Scythian tongue which was much like that of the peoples of Persia and were also known as Surmatai or Syrmatai. It would appear that many Elamites, who dwelt adjacent to the Madai in Iran, probably migrated with them into south-eastern Europe [see Is.21:2].
Many ancient writers refer to them. Strabo mentions the Matiani or Matieni as does Herodotus and Pliny. Ammianus Marcellinus speaks of the Sauro-matians dwelling near the Hister (modern Danube). We also know that the Sea of Azov was anciently known as Maeotis Palus; on its shores dwelt the Maioti or Maiotiki.
The Sarmatian dagger and sword used by these people were exactly like that of the Medes. Researcher, Sulimirski, maintains that "the Sarmatians were...closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians."
Rostovtzeff wrote that "the Scythian kingdom—a formation almost completely Iranian, a northern counter-part of the kingdom of Darius and Xerxes...the Sarmatians, whose Iranian nationality is not disputed".
Herodotus wrote that the Medes were beginning to settle in the Ukraine even in his time. He maintained that there was a people who "dress in the Median fashion" and who "claim to be colonists from Media" that "live north of Thrace...beyond the Danube". Pliny noted that "Next come the two mouths of the river Don, where the inhabitants are the Sarmatae, said to be descended from the Medes".


https://books.google.de/books?id=EMShGy-0CsoC&pg=PA784&lpg=PA784&dq=sarmatians+medes+herodotus&source=bl&ots=Nhmxp4azr3&sig=kcl1audUtY15zH-FqVPCLk5NMmE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAmoVChMIg6Snxs2TyAIVQ1sUCh2AFQPM#v=on epage&q=sarmatians%20medes%20herodotus&f=false

In ancient Texts (Bible, Tora, Quran) the Medes are reffered to as Madai. Herodotus and Greeks often called them Matiene and according to Greek_Roman sources the name Sauro-matae basically means "Lizard" Medes (probably because of their armor which resembled that of lizards).


Another source.

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/2zpuwsj19ty.png
https://books.google.de/books?id=8pIaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=sarmatians+medes+herodotus&source=bl&ots=vDJVQc_fJE&sig=BJf5jwFabq0wE5zLE2pLXArcQgc&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBGoVChMIg6Snxs2TyAIVQ1sUCh2AFQPM#v=on epage&q=sarmatians%20medes%20herodotus&f=false


As we know and as I pointed out previously often enough. The Parthians themselves are directly descend of Medes (mostly Medes themselves) but had an early Scythian Elite admixture (the Arsacids).


As the region inhabited by Parthians, Parthia first appears as a political entity in Achaemenid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid) lists of governorates ("satrapies") under their dominion. Prior to this, the people of the region seem to have been subjects of the Medes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthia

What became Parthians were simply the former Medes, this is visible not only in their culture and clothing (which is mostly Median with Scythian elements) but also from their language which is Northwest Iranic. When Parthians rised suddenly the Medes completely dissapeared from the display. Only a small Satrape (Media Atropatene) named after the former Empire, remained. But even the people in this Satrape were now identifying themselves as Parthians.

The Sarmatians might be another of those Median groups who migrated after the downfall of the Median Empire while the Medes remaining back home became something new, the Parthians.

Another important thing that points to a Median origin is that they worshipped the Fire and Sun/Sky typical for Western Iranic groups while the Scythians worshipped more the deities of nature.

All what Median tribes and their descends have in common when it comes to religion is that the Sun and Fire play a prominent role. Parthians being worshippers of Mithras the personification and deity of the sun and fire played a holy role.




http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/16o2m1ct0ed.png


the Medes are said to have formely called themselves Arianoi. Now the interesting part the term "Alan" is a corrupted version of the word Arian. The letters RI seem to have loudshifted into L.

Now to the most interesting part. One of the most commonly used names for the Alans is Alanoi.
http://pleiades.stoa.org/places/834278

(http://pleiades.stoa.org/places/834278)Now taking into account the ri = l shift. Alanoi = Arianoi

And once again who called themselves Arianoi?

arvistro
26-09-15, 14:38
What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

LeBrok
26-09-15, 18:19
What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now? Good question. Z93 is suspiciously low in Eastern Europe. Perhaps they only ruled like Mongols over conquered population, from distance collecting taxes, and only bringing army in times of unrest?

Tomenable
26-09-15, 19:43
What happened with those Sarmatians (...) Where are those J1 (...) in (East) Europe now?

Here: http://s3.postimg.org/bgmkaqlvn/J1_area.png

BTW - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism

http://s3.postimg.org/bgmkaqlvn/J1_area.png

arvistro
26-09-15, 20:10
And here Sarmatian map from wiki:
7435
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Looks like those guys were erazed completely from North of Black Sea. That is if J1 was really ever a thing there. Those Sarmatians were found in Beslan, Caucasus where the green color does ok today.

Alan
26-09-15, 21:18
What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

Absorbed mostly by Turkic speakers and later replaced with Slavic speakers. Thats what happened.

Alan
26-09-15, 21:20
And here Sarmatian map from wiki:
7435
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

Looks like those guys were erazed completely from North of Black Sea. That is if J1 was really ever a thing there. Those Sarmatians were found in Beslan, Caucasus where the green color does ok today.


Just that the J1 in those Sarmatian samples is different from the J1 nowadays dominating there. So not local Caucasus but Iranic J1.

But than as you said it is unlikely that J1 was the dominant Haplogroup among the early Sarmatians since both samples are from the same area and other Sarmatian(Alans) samples turned out as G2a P15 and R1ab z94. J1 is Probably one of the many Haplogroups yet to be found among them.

arvistro
26-09-15, 21:46
Absorbed mostly by Turkic speakers and later replaced with Slavic speakers. Thats what happened.
Can you elaborate in more details? It is rather dark subject for me in history.
Khazars? Hunns? Avars?

Alan
26-09-15, 21:54
Can you elaborate in more details? It is rather dark subject for me in history.
Khazars? Hunns? Avars?

Huns were not really Turkic speakers but a Steppe confederation of Massagetes/Scythians and Mongols. But the Turkic groups ultimately gave birth out of this confederation.

But otherwise you have given the answer for the question. Avars, Khazars etc absorbed it, in fact so much that they would have been genetically already more Iranic than Altaic.

Sile
26-09-15, 22:00
Huns were not really Turkic speakers but a Steppe confederation of Massagetes/Scythians and Mongols. But the Turkic groups ultimately gave birth out of this confederation.

But otherwise you have given the answer for the question. Avars, Khazars etc absorbed it, in fact so much that they would have been genetically already more Iranic than Altaic.

it all depends on when you think the turkic-central asian people entered the caucasus and the steppes.............do you have a time frame when turkic replaced iranic in say , modern Kazakh people/lands?

turkic in the caucasus was 400AD and into the eastern steppes 650 AD is my opinion

Goga
26-09-15, 22:18
Scholars Claim Bulgarians Descended from Iran

" The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands.

“We have found impressive evidence about the Iranian origin of the ancient Bulgarians,”

“Even though the Iranians are darker-skinned, they look very much like the Bulgarians anthropologically. Some of the words in today’s Persian language sound the same as words in Bulgarian. Their traditional musical instruments such as whistles, bagpipes, and tambourine fully correspond our folklore tradition. Over half of the carpers in the Caspian areas of Iran coincide with the ornaments, symbols, and colors of the Bulgarian carpets,”

We are less than 20% Slavic. The Slavs are not the major element of the Bulgarian ethnicity,” "

http://www.novinite.com/articles/117903/Scholars+Claim+Bulgarians+Descended+from+Iran


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png

Sile
26-09-15, 22:49
Scholars Claim Bulgarians Descended from Iran

" The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands.

“We have found impressive evidence about the Iranian origin of the ancient Bulgarians,”

“Even though the Iranians are darker-skinned, they look very much like the Bulgarians anthropologically. Some of the words in today’s Persian language sound the same as words in Bulgarian. Their traditional musical instruments such as whistles, bagpipes, and tambourine fully correspond our folklore tradition. Over half of the carpers in the Caspian areas of Iran coincide with the ornaments, symbols, and colors of the Bulgarian carpets,”

We are less than 20% Slavic. The Slavs are not the major element of the Bulgarian ethnicity,” "

http://www.novinite.com/articles/117903/Scholars+Claim+Bulgarians+Descended+from+Iran


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Bulgarians_and_Slavs_VI-VII_century.png

what do you mean by "eastern Iran"...bactrians or parthians people?

Goga
27-09-15, 00:12
what do you mean by "eastern Iran"...bactrians or parthians people?
I don't know what they mean by that, but I think that according to those Bulgarian anthropologists and scientists Bulgarians are from Scythians or something. Scythians, Alanians etc. spoke an East Iranic language. It's possible that all Iranic folks North of the Black Sea became Bulgarians, but later on mixed heavily with Slavic folks and forgot their language and therefore changed their language into Slavic

Goga
27-09-15, 00:14
All other Iranic folks were assimilated by Germanic and Slavic tribes. And other tribes were incorporated into the Roman Empire.

Alan
27-09-15, 03:55
it all depends on when you think the turkic-central asian people entered the caucasus and the steppes.............do you have a time frame when turkic replaced iranic in say , modern Kazakh people/lands?

turkic in the caucasus was 400AD and into the eastern steppes 650 AD is my opinion

400 AD unlikely. By that time the Alans were ruling the Caucasus.

The Turkic groups gave brith in Central Asia just after the dispersal of the Huns around the 6th century AD. The Hunnic exapnsion correspondents well with the downfall of the Sassanian Empire in 650 BC after century long wars with the Romans the Sassanian Empire in the east worked as a border against the Huns until the Empire was so weakned by wars with Rome, overrun by the Arabs and opened it's eastern gates to Huns which ironically led to the downfall of the Roman Empire.

It is not even clear if the Turks even formed out of the Huns to begin with, or if they didn't exist already seperately and just used the Hunnic momentum to migrate towards West Asia and the Steppes themselves. Since the Huns who migrated Westward clearly seem like the former Massagetae who went into a nomadic confederation with Mongol tribes. Those Huns who actually pushed towards West were the Iranic Huns (also known as White Huns) while the Asiatic Huns stayed back home and were known as Xiongnu.

Regulary the Parthians would went to West China to assist the Chinese against those Xiongnu. It is said that hunger pushed those diverse nomadic tribes into a confederation to begin with and this must have also been the reason for their push towards West. By 400 AD already Central Asia would have become a melting pot of nomadic culture. The Sassanids are said to have fought against the Chionites on their eastern border (a corruption of the word Hun) those Chionit are said to have been Iranic Huns.

Hun in general seems to have been simply a "catch up" term for all Central and Northeast Asian nomadic tribes by that time. Massagetae, Scythians heck even the Hepthalites, Alchons and Nezak were called "Huns" by that time.

Even the Kidarites (former Kushans) were yet another of those Iranic Hun tribes. Taking into account all this it doesn't seem that Huns were really forefathers of the Turkic groups. It seems rather those White Huns were the last Iranic groups before leaving Central Asia. And this gap was filled by Turkic speakers who took advantage on the momentum.

However the best way to describe the Huns is as a nomadic confederation of various Central Asian tribes who at the beginning were yet mostly Iranic tribes which started to mix/merge or be replaced with more Mongolic elements.

Oddly enough the term Hun and the first Huns themselves must have been ultimately Iranic speakers cause they are mentioned on inscriptions in Persepolis from as far back as the Darius era and even earlier in the book of Avesta as part of the Tur/an people. Note the term Tur is Iranic and was used to differentiate the West Iranic tribes (called as Aran) from the Central Asian or East Iranic tribes known as Turan.



The name Xyon is found in Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan) and Pahlavi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian_Middle_Persian) texts.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-10) In the Avestan tradition (Yts. 9.30-31, 19.87) the Xiiaona were characterized as enemies of Vishtaspa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishtaspa), the patron of Zoroaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-W.Felix-1) In the later Pahlavi tradition, the Red Huns (Karmir Xyon) and White Huns (Spet Xyon) are mentioned.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-W.Felix-1) The Red Huns of the Pahlavi tradition (7th century)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-11) have been identified by Harold Walter Bailey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Walter_Bailey) as the Kermichiones or Ermechiones.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-W.Felix-1) According to Bailey[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites#cite_note-12) the Hara Huna of Indian sources are to be identified with the Karmir Xyon of the Avesta. Similarly he identifies the Sveta Huna of Indian sources with the Spet Xyon of the Avesta. Bailey argues that the name Xyon was transferred to the Huna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huna_people) owing to similarity of sound, as Tur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan) was adapted to Turk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turk_%28disambiguation%29) in Pahlavi tradition

Tūrān (Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) توران), literally meaning "the land of the Tur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tur_%28son_of_Fereydun%29)", is a region in Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia). The term, of Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) origin,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-1) may refer to a certain prehistoric human settlement, a historic geographic region or a culture. The original Turanians were an Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-4) tribe of the Avestan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta) age.

As a people, the "Turanian" are one of the two Iranian peoples both descending from the Persian Fereydun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fereydun) but with different domains and often at war with each other.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-6) In fact according to the Shahnameh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh)'s account, at least 1,500 years later after the Avesta, the nomadic tribes who inhabited these lands were ruled by Tūr, who was the emperor Fereydun's elder son. The association with Turks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples) is also primarily based on the Shahnameh's geographical account where Turkification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification) of Central Asia was partially completed during that time.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-7)
Tur/Turaj (Tuzh in Middle Persian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian_Middle_Persian))[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-8) is the son of emperor Fereydun in ancient Iranian mythology. In the Shahnameh, he is identified with the Turks;[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-9) however, culturally there is no relationship between Turanians of the Shahnameh and the culture of ancient Turks according to C.E. Boseworth.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-10)
Turan comprised five sub regions: Southern Turkmenia, the Atrak Valley, the Eastern Elburz Mountains, the Helmand Valley, and Bactria and Margiana.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-11)


The oldest existing mention of Turanian is in the Farvardin Yashts of the young Avesta, which is dated by linguists to have been composed approximately 2500 years ago.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-12) The Avesta contains the names of various tribal groups who lived in proximity to each other. According to Prof. Gherardo Gnoli:’’Iranian tribes that also keep on recurring in the Yasht, Airyas, Tuiryas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis’’.[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-ReferenceA-13) In the hymns of the Avesta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta), the adjective Tūrya is attached to various enemies of Zoroastrism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrism) like Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrasiab)). The word occurs only once in the Gathas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gathas), but 20 times in the later parts of the Avesta.
The Turanians or Tuiryas as they were called in Avesta play a more important role in the Avesta than the Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis. Zoroaster himself hailed from the Airya people but he also preached his message to other neighboring tribes.[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-ReferenceA-13)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-14)
According to Mary Boyce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Boyce), in the Farvardin Yasht, "In it (verses 143–144) are praised the fravashis of righteous men and women not only among the Aryas (as the "Avestan" people called themselves), but also among the Turiyas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis; and the personal names, like those of the people, all seem Iranian character".[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-15) Hostility between Tuirya and Airya is indicated also in the Farvardtn Yast (vv. 37-8), where the Fravashis of the Just are said to have provided support in battle against the Danus, who appear to be a clan of the Tura people.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-16) Thus in the Avesta, some of the Tuiryas believed in the message of Zoroaster while others rejected the religion.
Similar to the ancient homeland of Zoroaster, the precise geography and location of Turan is unknown.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-17) In post-Avestan traditions they were thought to inhabit the region north of the Oxus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus_River), the river separating them from the Iranians. Their presence accompanied by incessant wars with the Iranians, helped to define the latter as a distinct nation, proud of their land and ready to spill their blood in its defense.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-Ehsan_Yarshater_1983-18) The common names of Turanians in Avesta and Shahnameh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh) include Frarasyan,[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-Afrasiyab-19) Aghraethra,[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-20) Biderafsh,[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-21) Arjaspa[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-22) Namkhwast.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-23) The names of Iranian tribes including those of the Turanians that appear in Avesta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta) have been studied by Professor Mayrhofer in his comprehensive book on Avesta personal name etymologies: Iranisches Personennamenbuch, I: Die altiranischen Namen. Faszikel l, Die Avestischen Namen.[24]


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#cite_note-24)

Some linguists derive the word from the Indo-Iranian root *tura- "strong, quick, sword(Pashto)", Pashto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashto_language) turan (thuran) "swordsman". Others link it to old Iranian *tor "dark, black", related to the New Persian tār(ik), Pashto tor (thor), and possibly English dark. In this case, it is a reference to the "dark civilization" of Central Asian nomads in contrast to the "illuminated" Zoroastrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarathustra) civilization of the settled Ārya.




In Darius inscription they are called Hunae. So it really does seem as Huns are called some Iranic tribes who over the time absorbed more and more Mongolic elements.

The confusion with the early Turks might come from the fact that Huns were part of the Turan people and this term was ultimately adopted by proto-Turkic groups for themselves. But the term Turan predates the Proto Turks by thousands of years.

Turan indeed seems to mean "the dark lands". As Tar/i means in Kurdish dark and an is the Iranic suffix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidarites

Tomenable
27-09-15, 04:25
Alan - good points about Huns / Hunae / Xiongnu being at least partially Iranic-speaking.

There is also genetic evidence for presence of autosomally Western Eurasian males among the Xiongnu elite:

"A Western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in North-Eastern Mongolia":

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract;jsessionid=B58DE687130C09668A1B0A5BB78080 94.f02t01


A Western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia:

We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP), and autosomal short tandem repeats (STR) of three skeletons found in a 2,000-year-old Xiongnu elite cemetery in Duurlig Nars of Northeast Mongolia. This study is one of the first reports of the detailed genetic analysis of ancient human remains using the three types of genetic markers. The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia. This might indicate an Indo-European migration into Northeast Asia 2,000 years ago. Other specimens are a female with mtDNA haplogroup D4 and a male with Y-SNP haplogroup C3 and mtDNA haplogroup D4. (...) There was no close kinship among them. The genetic evidence of U2e1 and R1a1 may help to clarify the migration patterns of Indo-Europeans and ancient East-West contacts of the Xiongnu Empire. Artifacts in the tombs suggested that the Xiongnu had a system of the social stratification. The West Eurasian [Caucasoid] male might show the racial tolerance of the Xiongnu Empire and some insight into the Xiongnu society.

Other papers about the eastern fringes of Caucasoid / West Eurasian settlement:

"Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

"Strong genetic admixture in the Altai at the Middle Bronze Age revealed by uniparental and ancestry informative markers":

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314001161

"Physical Anthropology of Kazakh People and Their Genesis":

http://www.scientificfund.kz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7hysical-anthropology-of-kazakh-people-and-their-genesis

"Population of Kazakhstan from Bronze Epoch to Present (Paleoanthropological research)":

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Ismagulov/IsmagulovAnthropologyConclusionEn.htm

"In the heartland of Eurasia: the multilocus genetic landscape of Central Asian populations":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20823912

"Analysis of ancient mtDNA from the Xiaohe cemetery: insights into prehistoric population movements in the Tarim Basin, China":

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/16/78

"Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin, China, as early as the early Bronze Age":

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=2838831_1741-7007-8-15-1&req=4

"Tall Caucasoid Mummies of China":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRj-IR5Aqbg

"Ancient White Mummies of China":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr5Kq56heIs

More about Caucasoid mummies from the Xiaohe Tomb Complex in the Tarim Basin:

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp185_silk_road.pdf

http://people.ucas.ac.cn/upload/UserFiles/File/20140623180433180905.pdf

http://students.cis.uab.edu/ggabbert/site/xiaohe.html

Oldest cheese and oldest glue so-far discovered, are from Xiaohe Tomb Complex:

Cheese: http://www.livescience.com/43782-mummies-have-oldest-cheese.html

Glue: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/ancient-ritual-artifact-xiaohe-cemetery-glue-made-3500-years-020120

Tomenable
27-09-15, 04:35
As for the Xiaohe Tomb Complex - people buried there were under R1a-M198 (Y-DNA) and had no any obviously East Asian mtDNA.

Their mtDNA was typically Caucasoid (European + Siberian / ANE + Southern / Western Asian), rather than East Asian. Citation:

"(...) Our results indicate that the people of the Tarim Basin had a diverse maternal ancestry, with origins in Europe, central/eastern Siberia and southern/western Asia. These findings, together with information on the cultural context of the Xiaohe cemetery, can be used to test contrasting hypotheses of route of settlement into the Tarim Basin. (...)"

Alan
27-09-15, 04:38
@Tomenable I edited my comment. Please re-read it. I included some other sources. It doesn't only seems like the Huns were partially Iranic speakers, it seems the early Huns were predominantly Iranic speakers and absorbed over time more and more Mongolic/Altaic groups/genes among them until the early Huns were extremely diverse and mixed genetically. Since the earliest Huns are mentioned in the Avesta over thousands of years before they even migrated towards west.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 04:48
^ By the way, the only 3 words known from European Hunnic of the 5th century AD, are Indo-European:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31576-What-branch-of-R1a-M417-could-Caucasoid-mummies-of-Xiaohe-belong-to?p=467059&viewfull=1#post467059

Little is known about Hunnic language, but this evidence indicates that it could possibly be Indo-European:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Corpus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language#Indo-European


(...) there are only three words (other than proper names) that are widely accepted by scholars as part of European Hunnic:[5]

medos: a beverage akin to mead
kamos: a barley drink
strava: a funeral feast

All three of these words are considered to have originated in non-Turkic languages, likely satemised Indo-European languages,[9] such as those from the Iranian, Slavic and/or Thraco-Dacian families. (...)

The only three words agreed to have been part of European Hunnic (medos, kamos, strava) are not Turkic,[5] but are probably derived from a satem Indo-European language (...)

Thanks Alan for bringing up additional arguments linking the Huns with IE. I will note down your interesting info.

Tomenable
27-09-15, 04:55
By the time of coming to Europe in the 400s they were probably still largely IE-speaking, but with some Turkic-speakers among them.

Genetically they had (or at least some of them) certain level of East Asian admixture, but so do modern IE groups from Central Asia:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TJCuJVizYSI/AAAAAAAAClY/KT6PkWSIZnM/s1600/centralasianmartinez.jpg

Alan
27-09-15, 05:03
Map of the Sassanian Empire and it's Satrape. Look at which Satrape is located just next to Sakastan in modern Baluchistan. And beyond the eastern borders of the empire were the Huns( Hepthalites, Alchons, Kidarites and Nezak).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Sassanian_Empire_621_A.D.jpg


The modern Term Turk and Tur/an seem to have completely different origin and the association of both terms only started around the Islamic era, when the Turkic groups started to spil over to former Iranic settlements in Central Asia.


The first known mention of the term Turk (Old Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg) Türük[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-KulteginMC-29)[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-BilgeKaganMC-30) or https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg) Kök Türük[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-KulteginMC-29)[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-BilgeKaganMC-30) or https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_K.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg) Türük,[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-TonyukukMC-31) Chinese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language): 突厥, Old Tibetan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tibetan): duruggu/durgu (meaning "origin"), .....
Turkologist András Róna-Tas posits that the term Turk could be rooted in the East Iranian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Iranian_languages) Saka language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka_language)[47] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-R.C3.B3na-Tas-47) or in Turkic.[48] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-48) However, it is generally accepted that the term "Türk" is ultimately derived from the Old-Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_language) migration-term[49] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-49) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_R2.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_U.svg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_T2.svg) "Türük" or "Törük",[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-Nisanyan-50)[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-51) which means "created", "born", ....


Turk seems to derive from Türük-Törük what means "created/born" and seems to share some roots with Old Tibetan "Duruggu" what means "Origin".

Alan
27-09-15, 05:25
from the Old Turkic word root *türi-/töri- ("tribal root, (mythic) ancestry; take shape, to be born, be created, arise, spring up") and conjugated with Old Turkic suffix https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg/10px-Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Turkic_letter_UK.svg) (-ik), perhaps from Proto-Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Turkic) *türi-k ("lineage, ancestry"),[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-Nisanyan-50) from the Proto-Turkic word root *töŕ ("foundation, root; origin, ancestors"),[54] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-Nisanyan2-54)[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-55) possibly from a Proto-Altaic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic) source *t`ŏ̀ŕe ("law, regulation").[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-56) This etymological concept is also related to Old Turkic word stems 'tür (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%C3%BCr)' ("root, ancestry, race, kind of, sort of"), 'türi- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%C3%BCremek)' ("to bring together, to collect"), 'törü (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%C3%B6re)' ("law, custom") and 'töz (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/t%C3%B6z)' ("substance").[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#cite_note-Nisanyan-50)


"Tür" still means in Turkish "kind of, type or species". Iranic Tur/an and Turkish Türk seems to have complitely different origin.

arvistro
27-09-15, 08:28
There still is the question of what happened to their y-dna.
I understand that folk can change its culture and ethnicity, but in cases known to me y-dna of old population survived in good % of new folk- i.e. East Prussian y-dna.
So, rather those Hunnic men (who incorporated former Sarmats) were killed off completely and massively? And remains pushed out of Europe into Caucasus for good.
After Hunns do we still have Iranians North or West of Black Sea?

Edit: maybe Euro Sarmats were already pushed out/killed off by Airmanareiks (Ermanaric) of Greuthungi before their comeback as/with Hunns?

Alan
27-09-15, 14:02
There still is the question of what happened to their y-dna.
I understand that folk can change its culture and ethnicity, but in cases known to me y-dna of old population survived in good % of new folk- i.e. East Prussian y-dna.
So, rather those Hunnic men (who incorporated former Sarmats) were killed off completely and massively? And remains pushed out of Europe into Caucasus for good.
After Hunns do we still have Iranians North or West of Black Sea?



In Hungary as Jasz/Iasi (Probably descend of the Iazyges).

MOESAN
27-09-15, 19:04
I spoke about Scythians appearing in History about the 7/6° century; in fact it seems concerning only their occidental territories; I'm not a specialist - in docs provided by Tomenable, I saw "Altai Scythians" since the 14° century: are we dealing here with authentic well determined Scythians on the archeologic ground or it is a kind of "proto-something" proxi? Were these "Scythians" already in a Iron Age stage? Thanks for correcting me.

arvistro
27-09-15, 22:33
There was no ri-l shift. If I remember correctly there was l-r shift in Iranian languages instead.
In early Iranian, Indo-European *r and *l had completely merged into r.

Wiki however says this:
"The various forms of Alan — Greek: Ἀλανοί, Alanoi; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century,[11] 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century[12] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) and later Alanguo (阿蘭國)[13] are Iranian dialectal forms of Aryan."

So, maybe it was Alans in some archaic IndoIranian dialect where *l and *r merger did not happen (yet).

Edit: sorry my last sentence is wrong, initial form had *r already. So, it is rather mysterious why they were Alans with l, if initial form was arya and post-Alan form (Ossetic) was ir/iron.
Maybe some other etimology is needed.

arvistro
27-09-15, 23:11
But I did not know that Alans settled in Orleans or Iberia. I wonder if their genetic traces in those lands can still be detected.

Alan
28-09-15, 00:44
There was no ri-l shift. If I remember correctly there was l-r shift in Iranian languages instead.
In early Iranian, Indo-European *r and *l had completely merged into r.

Wiki however says this:
"The various forms of Alan — Greek: Ἀλανοί, Alanoi; Chinese: 阿蘭聊 Alanliao (Pinyin) in the 2nd century,[11] 阿蘭 Alan (Pinyin) in the 3rd century[12] — and Iron (a self-designation of the Alans' modern Ossetian descendants, indicating early tribal self-designation) and later Alanguo (阿蘭國)[13] are Iranian dialectal forms of Aryan."

So, maybe it was Alans in some archaic IndoIranian dialect where *l and *r merger did not happen (yet).

Edit: sorry my last sentence is wrong, initial form had *r already. So, it is rather mysterious why they were Alans with l, if initial form was arya and post-Alan form (Ossetic) was ir/iron.
Maybe some other etimology is needed.

There was an L-R shift from Indo European to Iranic tongues as seen on the word for light which is in PIE something like "LeuK" and becomes in Iranic tongues Roec/Roj/c/Ruc.

But you are confusing here something I think. I am talking here about an inner Iranic loudshift. Obviously Alan is a corrupted version of Aryan and loudshifted from this. Therefore it is an ir=l loudshift there. Just like there is an A=I (Aran= Iran) or e=a (Men=Man) loudshift in Persian. Those are inner Iranic loudshifts and have nothing to do with PIE = Iranic loudshifts.

Many words in Iranic tongues loudshifted back and forth. For example Avestab for "star " is "stara" as far as I remember. some Kurdish dialect (mine) has loudshifted this to "ster" which in fact is equal to the PIE root "ster" again. Simply coincidence and inner Iranic loudshifts.

arvistro
28-09-15, 06:58
Yeah, but then it shifted back to Ossetic version.. Too coincidence.. If Ossetic preserved l then no problem.

arvistro
28-09-15, 08:24
Can you demonstrate other words with ri->l sound shift from Alanic or similar dialects?
Because to believe it was one time happening in a dialect that went extinct (survived Ossetic has r)... Quite a stretch. This way one can explain anything!

MOESAN
02-10-15, 19:11
I've some doubts about the Alan-Aryan connection (and what about the 'y' sound?) and onwards-backwards series of shifts in the same places, even if R/L L/R is very common in dialects - not to say it is impossible, only doubtfull.

Alan
03-10-15, 03:56
I've some doubts about the Alan-Aryan connection (and what about the 'y' sound?) and onwards-backwards series of shifts in the same places, even if R/L L/R is very common in dialects - not to say it is impossible, only doubtfull.

Actually you don't need to doubt it. It is a widely accept and established fact among linguists that Alan is a corrupted version of the word Arian.


You don't need to have many examples because this is an inner-Iranic loudshift. But actually there are some other examples of similar kind in West Iranic tongues.

For exmple in (mostly Persian though) the r or re/ri sounds shift to l. Like in the word Berez/Beriz what has it roots in "mountain" but becomes in "high" in West Iranic tongues.

Persian shifts it to "Boland", a Kurdish dialect to "bilind". Thats just one example from top of my head. As far as I remember there are more examples of r/ri to l shifts.

:smile:

Zakaryah
06-10-15, 04:22
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.

Zakaryah
06-10-15, 04:27
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.

Alan
06-10-15, 05:55
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.

SO is it not really from Beslan in North Caucasus? I heard there is a second Beslan city in Rostov province.

But it might be from North Ossetia. I am not sure which Beslan they mean.

vulkan
12-11-15, 21:39
Some folks don't like to hear the real truth. Ossetians are the modern descendants of the ancient Alanians, because Ossetians the only people in that region that speak also an Iranic language.

" Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran. "



you see what you want to see. It has nothing to do with truth, it's obvious. Such a nonsense statements.

vulkan
12-11-15, 21:43
The paper has a table with the samples and the cemetery section for the J1 samples says Beslan-k75 and Beslan-k36 I am sorry I assumed it meant Beslan.

seriously..

AliShirwan
15-03-16, 17:16
To be fair Herodotus always said the Sarmatians came from Media, also to add more the Scythians worshipped the Gods of Nature while Sarmatians however seemed to worship the Fire/Sun. Both worshipped the Sky though. :) However I got your point, it's simply nonsense to speak about " EUropean" or "West Asian" in ancient times. I doubt that Sarmatians, Scythians or whoever would have fit perfectly in one of the both categories. I see them more like the missing link between modern North Caucasians/Tajiks and Russians/Ukrainians based on Genetics As seen on my map above. However I also think just like the Bronze Age Armenian sample the Medes and even Persians where slightly more Northern shifted like modern North Caucasians compared to modern Kurds and Persians.

I think all groups of the Northern Middle East are 8-15% Semite admixed, while ancient Iron Age groups would have been moe 4-8% admixed (from mixing with Babylonians and Assyrians). Than in more modern time came a second wave of Semite admixture with Arabs what probably doubled this numbers.

What is nowadays North Caucasus like must have been by Bornze and Iron Age East Anatolian, Mesopotamian, South Caucasus and Iranian Plateau like. Ancient North Caucasus was probably even more Northern shifted similar to Yamna samples themselves. Since Myakop, Yamna and Kura Araxes seem to form a cultural complex.

What evidence do you have for Arab migrations post Iron Age(7th century AD) caused a shift in our genepool more "south"? Or rather added semitic influence. I've yet to see hard proof or evidence for this, only speculation.

AliShirwan
15-03-16, 17:17
According to paper entitled. Афанасьев Г.Е., Ван Л., Вень Ш., Вэй Л., Добровольская М.В., Коробов Д.С., Решетова И.К., Ли Х., Тун С. Хазарские конфедераты в бассейне Дона // Тезисы докладов на Всероссийской научной конференции "Естественнонаучные методы исследования и парадигма современной археологии". М.: ИА РАН. 2015

Two Sarmatian remains in Beslan have tested positive for J-M267. There of course G2a and R1a remains as well. This is big as it is the first J1 Sarmatian/Alan, that I know of anyways. Exciting!!

The paper is obviously in Russian. I can not post the link as I have not posted enough. I can PM anyone the link to the original paper as well as a link to a crude translation I have made via Google. I have messaged one of the authors on the site and he tells me the paper will be published in a scientific journal the first quarter of next year.The author I messaged is named Gennady Afanasiev. Website Academia.edu you can find him and his papers there.

I'm J1 myself, although 23andme problematically doesn't show my subsclade. I'd assume I'm J1-M267 since J1C3 would of shown up.

AliShirwan
15-03-16, 17:24
Also my problem is that there is a lack of archaeological evidence in relation to our ancient ancestors residing in what is today Kurdistan or surrounding regions, relating to the Parthians and Medes.

AliShirwan
15-03-16, 17:27
As for me personally I'm still not sure of my J1 origins.

Goga
15-03-16, 18:13
Also my problem is that there is a lack of archaeological evidence in relation to our ancient ancestors residing in what is today Kurdistan or surrounding regions, relating to the Parthians and Medes.
What do you mean? Even the most powerfull King of the Median Empire, Cyaxares (Hevexştre) was buried in Kurdistan, his native homeland!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwVjACAUw8c



What about all those ancient Median religious (Iranic) fire shrines in Kurdistan?

AliShirwan
15-03-16, 18:26
What do you mean? Even the most powerfull King of the Median Empire, Cyaxares (Hevexştre) was buried in Kurdistan, his native homeland!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwVjACAUw8c



What about all those ancient Median religious (Iranic) fire shrines in Kurdistan?

Yet none of those Median remains have been tested or excavated

Goga
15-03-16, 18:40
Yet none of those Median remains have been tested or excavatedNo not yet.

But I'm sure their DNA will be resemble the DNA of the Kurds.


But what we do know for sure is that there are Iranid West Asian haplogroups among ancient Iranid people in Northern Caucasus.


Northern Caucasus Iranid people like Ossetians (speakers of EAST Iranic language, descendents of Alanians & Sarmatians) are still genetically very close to Persians and Kurds and share the same deep ancestry.

Carl Graham
03-04-17, 01:04
What happened with those Sarmatians/Alans? Died off? Were killed off? Where are those J1 and R1a z93 in (East) Europe now?

Well 5500 of them were sent to Britain to be stationed along Hadrian's Wall , which is pretty much where all the J1 Grahams originate.The original J-BY89 signature which eventually became the Graham signature was Balochi in origin so you can see I might have reason to be interested in these ancient samples !

Apsurdistan
19-04-17, 07:27
Shouldn't be surprising isn't the J hg in very high% in the north caucuses which is where the Sarmatians were.

Alan
20-04-17, 20:45
Some more Sarmatian samples have been analysed. R1b has popped up too. So far Sarmatian/Alan Haplogroups seem to include G2a, R1a, J1/J2 and R1b.

Pretty much typical "diversity" you see in most modern Iranic speakers.

johen
20-04-17, 22:27
Where did Sarmatian originate in? North caucasus or central Asia?

There was scythian-sarmatian sagart culture dating between 5 century BC and 5 century AD, which were widespread across the region from the Ural to the Ob river. Their cranial series are very close to Okunevo people in altai. As far as I know, Russian anthropologists have classified the okunevo people as archaic intermediates between caucasoid and mongoloid, but not now. The new research described them as “plesiomorphic”. looks like the sagart people were R1a people. Were they the original samatians or migrants?


The third cluster includes Early Iron Agegroups of Western Siberia, Neolithic groups of the Altai,and Okunev people of Southern Siberia. Populationsmaking up the third cluster are quite speci ¿ c rather thanintermediate. It is to this cluster that people buried onBolshoy Oleniy Island are the closest.
--
the third cluster presents a difficult problem. Of course, marked similarities between groups widely separated in space such as Okunev, Sargat,Ust-Isha and Itkul, and Bolshoy Oleniy Island should not be taken to imply direct migrations from southwesternSiberia to circumpolar Eastern Europe or vice versa.
--
In our view, the results of the multivariate comparison, paradoxical as they appear, are not incidental. Rather than indicating direct affinities, membership of the third population cluster may reflect the retention of plesiomorphic cranial traits that were characteristic of an early stage of population differentiation in Eurasia. At least two supposedly plesiomorphic trait combinations peculiar to certain ancient populations of Siberia have been described. One characterizes the Okunev people of Southern Siberia
V.G. Moiseyev and V.I. Khartanovich
EARLY METAL AGE CRANIAFROM BOLSHOY OLENIY ISLAND, BARENTS SEA (2013)


To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans.
September 2009, Volume 126, Issue 3, pp 395–410 Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history south Siberian Kurgan people

MOESAN
20-04-17, 23:40
I doubt that most of Scythians, even the more eastern ones, could be attributed only to this "plesiomorphic" type of BI early Okunevo people (conservative archaïc form, pre-differentiation); Scythians I bet have more admixture; later in their moving towards West I think they return rather towards more 'europoid' types - for the Sarmatians supposed formation I've to read again a book which has been lent to me...

johen
21-04-17, 04:44
I doubt that most of Scythians, even the more eastern ones, could be attributed only to this "plesiomorphic" type of BI early Okunevo people (conservative archaïc form, pre-differentiation); Scythians I bet have more admixture; later in their moving towards West I think they return rather towards more 'europoid' types - for the Sarmatians supposed formation I've to read again a book which has been lent to me...

of course, they would be mixed with the other tribes. By the way, where do you think was a sarmatian's birthplace? It seems to be sagart culture area.

http://indo-european.info/indoeuropean/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/9-iron-age.jpg
Indo-European demic diffusion model, A ph. D dissertation(2017) by Carlos Quiles

Alan
21-04-17, 13:16
of course, they would be mixed with the other tribes. By the way, where do you think was a sarmatian's birthplace? It seems to be sagart culture area.

http://indo-european.info/indoeuropean/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/9-iron-age.jpg
Indo-European demic diffusion model, A ph. D dissertation(2017) by Carlos Quiles

It must have been East of the Caspian because even the Sarmatians show a little East Eurasian admixture and all their descendence do so too. Like the Ossetians. However I am not quite sure that we can talk of Sarmatians yet. Sarmatians seem to be the product of a Massagetae tribe moving into the Russian and North Caucasian Steppes and merging with incoming Median settlers. Sarmatians themselves show untypically strong signals from the Iranian Plateau that can be explained via Medic admixture.

imo Sarmatians = Massagetae + Medes