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Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 03:00
163 new samples, including Neolithic Anatolia! Hopefully this means Reich's new ancient DNA paper is coming out soon.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract?%3Fcollection=

Y DNa mtDNA results are listed for new samples!!

R1b1, R1a1, Q1a from 5200-4000 BC in Samara.

Alan
11-10-15, 03:53
Still no basal R1a and R1b there? ;)

Nice to have new results.

Alan
11-10-15, 04:00
Y-DNA J in an EHG individual from Karelia 5500 BC. J2a1 in Barcin in 6500-6200 BC. No R1b in the Chalcolithic samples from Atapuerca.

What was that? the 25% of Teal in EHG and 50% in Yamna came all from female teal wives taken captive by "horny" EHG groups?
This will be hard swallow for all the supporters of the "Teal wive" theory. :D

So much to that. I go so far and say a good chunk(Not all) of the R1b in EHG and the l23 in Yamna was also coming together with J.

Alan
11-10-15, 04:07
I was always proposing a "Teal " ancestry for J Haplogroups. (EEF + ANE). The J in Barcin can be from contacts to Eastern farmers (as per paper J was rather a minority lineage in Anatolian farmers) and the J in EHG samples is just a prove that they were already in contact with Teal farmers and therefore even SOME branches of the R1b in those EHG groups might have come together with J and be founder effect.

At least it proves that the wive theory is complete bogus.

Alan
11-10-15, 04:26
Page 21 http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf


Sintashta was 40% Anatolien Neolithic and ~60% Yamna (~30% Teal farmer). Thats total 70% of farmer/herder DNA there.

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 05:13
What was that? the 25% of Teal in EHG and 50% in Yamna came all from female teal wives taken captive by "horny" EHG groups?
This will be hard swallow for all the supporters of the "Teal wive" theory. :D

So much to that. I go so far and say a good chunk(Not all) of the R1b in EHG and the l23 in Yamna was also coming together with J.

You don't understand. The J EHG guy came from the same site a R1a1* guy was form, that R1a1* had no Near Eastern ancestry. The J is probably a less succesful brother of I that came to Europe 10,000s of years ago. The three new Eneolithic Samara guys all had EHG Y DNA and 1/3 had Near Eastern mtDNA. It supports the Teal wives theory.

Alan
11-10-15, 05:15
You don't understand. The J EHG guy came from the same site a R1a1* guy was form, that R1a1* had no Near Eastern ancestry. The J is probably a less succesful brother of I that came to Europe 10,000s of years ago. The three new Eneolithic Samara guys all had EHG Y DNA and 1/3 had Near Eastern mtDNA. It supports the Teal wives theory.
So now J is not a farmer/herder Haplogroup anymore because it destroys the mighty H&G stole wives theory?
Unlikely, J is found in Neolithic context from Eastern farmers all the way to Western farmers. If J made it to EHG with "no sign of southern admixture" , so why shouldn't we assume the same for some R1b in EHG? What if South_Central Asian and Iranian Plateau samples turn out Teal and even EHG like?

So many possibilities. still open.

Angela
11-10-15, 06:16
OOPS! :)
I've been working on a thread about this since I got the feed, but you guys beat me to it, so I just moved my post over here.

Well, Lazaridis mentioned that the revised Mathieson paper that would contain a lot of information from his paper as well as a lot of new samples would appear in a revised preprint, and it has:

Here it is:
8000 Years of Natural Selection in Europe revised
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

I've skimmed it, but there's a lot in here, so I can't summarize much of it at this late hour.

My major takeaways that weren't already sort of telegraphed:

Anatolian farmers already carried SLC24A5, apparently, so increased frequency in Europe is because of migration.

They were 47% G2a. We'll have to wait for the Lazaridis paper for more info apparently.

They don't think it necessarily means that the migration to Europe started from Anatolia. They also don't know precisely how wide the spread was in the Near East of this particular group. However, whether the migration went by sea (Cardial) or by land (presumably into and out of the Balkans), it all came from this type of farmer.

The EEF picked up 7-11% WHG initially.

The El Mirador Cave Chalcolithic people from Spain are genetically similar to the MN Iberians and thus have more WHG than their EN predecessors, but their WHG is about the same as that of the MN Spanish (23-28%), and they have no steppe ancestry, where as people in Central Europe from this time period did have some.

The mixture of EHG and an Armenian like group began about 5200 BC, "with some individuals resembling EHG and some resembling Yamnaya". The proportion was about 74%/26%.

Yamnaya from Samara, the Afansievo people (3300-3000BC), and the Poltavka people later on (2900-2200 BC) that followed Yamnaya on the steppe are all homogeneous and are predominantly R1b (one Poltavka sample is R1a), and their Armenian like Near Eastern ancestry ranges from 48-58%, but without Anatolian like ancestry.

After Poltavka, Srubnaya became 17% Anatolian Neolithic or EEF, perhaps because mixed steppe/farmer groups from the west moved east.

Previous work (Allentoft presumably) suggested this type of ancestry went east to Sintashta by means of a Corded Ware migration.

However, according to this Lab, the fact that Srubnaya also harbored such ancestry indicates this Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry could have come from a more eastern source. Further evidence that it was not Corded Ware is the fact that Srubnaya exclusively carries 4 R1a Z93 (as did one Poltavka sample).

Also very interesting is the fact that in Khvalynsk III there was R1a, R1b, and Q1a. Also, there is that one R1a in Poltavka. Therefore, the seeming shift from R1b to R1a on the steppe does not necessarily mean that new populations migrated onto the steppe. R1a might have been in Samara but not included in the rich burials associated with Yamnaya and Poltavka.

(Goodness, what a disappointment for those who were positively panting for a R1a/R1b war. :))

Also very interesting is that outside the steppe they found an individual from Karelia who was autosomally EHG but was yDna J. That was 5500 BC, not too far from the 5200 BC and start of Armenian like appearance.

I'll leave the selection stuff until tomorrow.

Oh, and J2a1 in Barcin Neolithic.

LeBrok
11-10-15, 07:51
163 samples, sweet. We should be getting some statistical certainty. I'm a bit disappointed though, there is not even one sample from Cucuteni, Maykop or Natufian/fertile crescent.

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 09:23
So now J is not a farmer/herder Haplogroup anymore because it destroys the mighty H&G stole wives theory?
Unlikely, J is found in Neolithic context from Eastern farmers all the way to Western farmers. If J made it to EHG with "no sign of southern admixture" , so why shouldn't we assume the same for some R1b in EHG? What if South_Central Asian and Iranian Plateau samples turn out Teal and even EHG like?

So many possibilities. still open.

Alan, I'm not sometype of raciest. I don't think EHG were inherently super masculine and superior to Near Eastern males. Why would I anyways, I have very little EHG in me. Stop taken this stuff to a personal level. The J in Mesolithic Karelia could very well be a brother to hg I that WHGs carried. EHG had mtDNA U5a and WHG U5b, J and I split around the same time. J in Mesolithic Karelia isn't good evidence their *dead* forms of R1a and R1b came from the Near East.

Goga
11-10-15, 11:27
Also very interesting is that outside the steppe they found an individual from Karelia who was autosomally EHG but was yDna J. That was 5500 BC, not too far from the 5200 BC and start of Armenian like appearance.

I'll leave the selection stuff until tomorrow.

Oh, and J2a1 in Barcin Neolithic.Personally I believe that R1a has lesser to do with PIE than J2a and even R1b. R1b is also not a real 'archaic' PIE marker, but it is the marker the spread heavily into Europe from Yamnaya and caused a founder effect.

But folks who Indo-Europized Yamnaya were most likely J2a and some R1b from the Iranian Plateau (/Leyla Tepe).

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 12:33
Some useful links. I posted a few earlier.

List of Mathieson samples. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Vjbp450AwI7R-Y9J1YGSm9FjJWu9s9lx1azjUJbS8hQ)
Extended Data Mathieson useful information (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14xg-GQX6HwzMTtw4mcnvkStLT8CA87z5qvcCLWCcCcE/edit#gid=2094157768)
Updated Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=479090567)
Updated Ancient West Eurasian mtDNA. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HRfrKlDa5Z0Gd1SdeC-y4qgZa7lOrFqBcuxptgZ8HSA)

Selection
SNPs under strongest selection have to do with: Lactase persistence(rs4988235) and Skin Color(rs16891982). Next for highest selection Immunity(?, rs2269424 and rs4833103).
>First Europeans with derived alleles in rs4988235 is LN/BA Central Europeans and closely related Central Asians but at very low 8%. Today a similarly low frequency exists in Tuscany, but a high frequency exists in Spain and very high frequency in NW Europe(CEU, GBR).

>Mesolithic Swedes and Neolithic Anatolians had a decently high frequency of derived alleles in rs16891982, with 40% in Anatolia(maybe 1/5 having 2 derived alleles). Slightly lower frequencies existed in Neolithic Europe. Frequency rose with LN/BA Central Europeans and their close relatives in Central Asia at 70%+. Today there's an almost 100% frequency in NW Europe and Tuscany, and 80% frequency in Spain.

>Mesolithic West and Swedish Europeans were 100% Blue eyed(with the data we have, N=11). Neolithic Anatolians were about 80-90% Brown eyed. A similar high frequency of Brown eyes existed in Yamnaya, Afanasievo, and Potapovka. Brown eyes slightly rose in frequency in Central Europe with Steppe-admixture. Tuscans and Spanish have similar eye-color frequencies as Neolithic ones but NorthWest Europeans have a higher frequency of Blue eyes than their Late Neolithic ancestors.

>Derived allele in rs4833103 was non-existent in West and Swedis hunter gatherers. It was at a low frequency in all other ancient Europeans, of 5-15%. Today it is at 55%+ in NorthWest Europe and 40% in Spain and Tuscany.

Alan
11-10-15, 13:28
Alan, I'm not sometype of raciest. I don't think EHG were inherently super masculine and superior to Near Eastern males. Why would I anyways, I have very little EHG in me. Stop taken this stuff to a personal level. The J in Mesolithic Karelia could very well be a brother to hg I that WHGs carried. EHG had mtDNA U5a and WHG U5b, J and I split around the same time. J in Mesolithic Karelia isn't good evidence their *dead* forms of R1a and R1b came from the Near East.

Look, who actually defended the ydna J is not EEF but a EEF+Teal merging idea based on the fact that it is close cousin of I? ME

BUT the point is that J is Obviously connected to farming /Herding cultures why is it so hard to understand. All other J samples are in Teal and EEF context. But than we have one Keralian J who has no autosomal sign of anything farmer like. That brings us back to our (Angela and me) initial theory, that this and as well some of the R1b in Samara H&G could be founder effect and through mixing with local WHG groups the Teal could have been so deluded until it autosomally disappeared.

So if there is J without any sign of farming genes in Karelian, there is R1b in Neolithic Iberian without any sign of EHG admixture. Why shouldn't it be possible that the autosomal DNA got deluted in both groups?

Alan
11-10-15, 13:45
Arame wrote this



Kurti

Congrats! Your theory about missing clusters on the PCA seems to be correct. The IA Scythian is on a "empty" place on modern populations PCA. Well it is right on the place where other Bronze Age Steppe samples are. It seems the Turkish invasions and later the Slavic expansion had a dramatic impact on the Steppe populations.


Anyone remember my theory? I was laughed at for it. They call me insane until my theories are confirmed it's always the same :)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30706-Europe-West-and-South_Central-Asia-and-the-unnatural-gap

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 14:28
Look, who actually defended the ydna J is not EEF but a EEF+Teal merging idea based on the fact that it is close cousin of I? ME

BUT the point is that J is Obviously connected to farming /Herding cultures why is it so hard to understand. All other J samples are in Teal and EEF context. But than we have one Keralian J who has no autosomal sign of anything farmer like. That brings us back to our (Angela and me) initial theory, that this and as well some of the R1b in Samara H&G could be founder effect and through mixing with local WHG groups the Teal could have been so deluded until it autosomally disappeared.

So if there is J without any sign of farming genes in Karelian, there is R1b in Neolithic Iberian without any sign of EHG admixture. Why shouldn't it be possible that the autosomal DNA got deluted in both groups?

Good point. Yes the autosomal DNA of the R1b1 and J ancestor of Neolithic Anatolia and Mesolithic Russia was diluted. However the majority of EHG probably had R1b and R1a. The chances of two separate Near Eastern lineages becoming both popular and leaving no autosomal in-print is low. Maybe a non-Basal Eurasian influenced people in West Asia are the source. But Teal almost certainly is not. Teal could be the source R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 but not of EHG's basal forms of R1b and R1a.

Angela
12-10-15, 16:00
Page 21 http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf


Sintashta was 40% Anatolien Neolithic and ~60% Yamna (~30% Teal farmer). Thats total 70% of farmer/herder DNA there.

Yes, I noticed the high amount of farmer. That certainly wasn't the impression I was getting from the internet chatter over the last months.

It would have been interesting had they done that kind of analysis for modern people.

Angela
12-10-15, 16:46
Some other interesting things in the paper. One I already alluded to...no E-V13. There's also no R1b V88.

Now, this is only one area, and yet they had a large mix of yDna, even if G2a predominated, so, it's possible we'd find both in another group in Anatolia or further south, yes?

Those groups would have had to be the same autosomally though, given that the authors say that both Cardial migrations and LBK type migrations stemmed from one rather homogeneous group?

Speaking of the Ydna in Anatolia: Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroup:
G2a: 7
G: 1
H2: 2
H: 1
I: 1
I2c: 1
C1a2: 1
J2a:1

So, the I and C lineages aren't a very big part of the whole. I wonder if someone will try to get a better fix on the I and the J2a.

Ed. There was one H2 and one H.

Alan
12-10-15, 16:47
Yes, I noticed the high amount of farmer. That certainly wasn't the impression I was getting from the internet chatter over the last months.

It would have been interesting had they done that kind of analysis for modern people.

Hobby groups will always explain you the facts in their own preffered way.

Sintashta EEF seems 15% more than among Corded Ware. Which brings the schoolers of the paper to the conclusion that we aren't dealing here with an Eastward migration of Corded Ware groups, but a group which is ancestral to Corded Ware as well Sintashta. And it seems like Andronovo indeed was absorbing Yamna (Teal and EHG ) like ancestry in Central Asia which brings me to the conclusion that something Yamna like was living there.

bicicleur
12-10-15, 17:47
Yes, I noticed the high amount of farmer. That certainly wasn't the impression I was getting from the internet chatter over the last months.

It would have been interesting had they done that kind of analysis for modern people.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6255&d=1444549779
there is a shift toward neolithic but still in the neigbourhood of Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Poltavka
notice Bell Beaker/European BA have the same shift, even a little bit more pronounced

bicicleur
12-10-15, 17:57
Some other interesting things in the paper. One I already alluded to...no E-V13. There's also no R1b V88.

Now, this is only one area, and yet they had a large mix of yDna, even if G2a predominated, so, it's possible we'd find both in another group in Anatolia or further south, yes?

Those groups would have had to be the same autosomally though, given that the authors say that both Cardial migrations and LBK type migrations stemmed from one rather homogeneous group?

Speaking of the Ydna in Anatolia: Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroup: 7 G2a, 1 G, 2 H2, 1 H, 1 I, 1 I2c, 1 J2a, 1 C1a2
G2a: 7
G: 1
H2: 2
H1: 1
I: 1
I2c: 1
C1a2: 1
J2a:1

So, the I and C lineages aren't a very big part of the whole. I wonder if someone will try to get a better fix on the I and the J2a.

this is only a very small part of Anatolia, from 2 sites nearby in NW Anatolia

R1b I would expect further east, maybe south of Caucasus , so no R1b-V88 here
E-V13, I'm getting more and more convinced the proposed TMRCA time of 4300 years is +/- correct
biggest surprise to me was to find I2c, which uptill now hasn't been found in the neolithic
all others were in early European neolithic
except H1, but I don't find it in the list (I have H) ; is it a typo or did you find some suplementary info?

sparkey
12-10-15, 18:00
Speaking of the Ydna in Anatolia: Anatolia_Neolithic: Y haplogroup: 7 G2a, 1 G, 2 H2, 1 H, 1 I, 1 I2c, 1 J2a, 1 C1a2
G2a: 7
G: 1
H2: 2
H1: 1
I: 1
I2c: 1
C1a2: 1
J2a:1

Whoa, that's significantly earlier than I expected any I2c outside of Europe. The supplemental data table doesn't seem to give any SNPs that tested negative though, so tough to say if this is a branch of I2c is an extinct branch that wandered away, or actually ancestral to a modern I2c branch, or what. It's even tougher to say anything about the "I" sample without knowing what tested negative. I'm very interested in that information if anybody can find it.

LeBrok
12-10-15, 18:06
What, no I2a? Here goes my Anatalian LGM hypothesis, lol. It is unbelievable, the variety of hapogroups. All presumably belonging to WHG of Anatolia before mixing with farmers.

Angela
12-10-15, 18:15
Hobby groups will always explain you the facts in their own preffered way.

Sintashta EEF seems 15% more than among Corded Ware. Which brings the schoolers of the paper to the conclusion that we aren't dealing here with an Eastward migration of Corded Ware groups, but a group which is ancestral to Corded Ware as well Sintashta. And it seems like Andronovo indeed was absorbing Yamna (Teal and EHG ) like ancestry in Central Asia which brings me to the conclusion that something Yamna like was living there.

I think it's pretty clear what the scholars (a veritable smorgasbord of nationalities and ethnic groups, by the way) are saying, and it's not the same as what's been on the internet:

"After the Poltavka period, population change occurred in Samara: the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya have ~17%Anatolian Neolithicor EEF ancestry (Extended Data Fig. 2). Previous work documented that such ancestry appeared east of the Urals beginning at least by the time of the Sintashta culture, and suggested that it reflected an eastward migration from the Corded Ware peoples of central Europe5. However, the fact that the Srubnaya also harbored such ancestry indicates that the Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry could have come into the steppe from a more eastern source. Further evidence that migrations originating as far west as central Europe may not have had an important impact on the Late Bronze Age steppecomes from the fact that the Srubnaya possess exclusively (n=6) R1a Y-94 chromosomes (Extended Data Table 1), and four of them (and one Poltavka male) belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93 which is common in central/south Asians12, very rare in present-day Europeans, and absent in all ancient central Europeans studied to date."


They seem to be pointing at admixture with EEF which came from Cucuteni Tripolyte and then moved across the forest steppe, although they're being cautious, perhaps so as not to ruffle a fellow colleague's feathers, i.e. Allentoft, but perhaps also to protect future papers. These guys are already in the process of analyzing, or know the results of other analyses of ancient people in the Balkans.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nLIufwC4szwC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=David+Anthony+on+Cucuteni+Tripolye&source=bl&ots=DELka5xT5n&sig=PAULTgrUvq3xUsO_uwNitJfnw-M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAWoVChMI_Ki5waa9yAIVC1Y-Ch2KIAZ1#v=onepage&q=David%20Anthony%20on%20Cucuteni%20Tripolye&f=false

I haven't thought through the situation in the east so I can't comment on that yet.

Angela
12-10-15, 18:23
What, no I2a? Here goes my Anatalian LGM hypothesis, lol. It is unbelievable, the variety of hapogroups. All presumably belonging to WHG of Anatolia before mixing with farmers.

I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?

Angela
12-10-15, 18:32
this is only a very small part of Anatolia, from 2 sites nearby in NW Anatolia

R1b I would expect further east, maybe south of Caucasus , so no R1b-V88 here
E-V13, I'm getting more and more convinced the proposed TMRCA time of 4300 years is +/- correct
biggest surprise to me was to find I2c, which uptill now hasn't been found in the neolithic
all others were in early European neolithic
except H1, but I don't find it in the list (I have H) ; is it a typo or did you find some suplementary info?

Sorry, Bicicleur, that was a typo. It's plain H. I'll edit my original post.

I should know better than to stay up late at a "The Walking Dead" watch party and have more than my usual one drink. It would be nice to be twenty-something again for at least the physical stamina! :)

Ed. Oh, what are your thoughts about that I2c?

bicicleur
12-10-15, 19:17
I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?

IMO H, which is very old (TMRCA 45000 years) is paleolithic India where microliths were invented.
H2 (I guess the H is also H2) must have come west and survived LGM in either the southern Levant or on the bottom of the Persian Gulf.

bicicleur
12-10-15, 19:30
I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?

there seem to have been 2 different incipient farming cultures :

the Natufians, based on cereals

SE Anatolia, based on nuts, pulses and domesticates - 12000 yo Hallan Cemi didn't have cereals
http://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1998_num_24_1_4667
IMO it's these people that build Göbekli Tepe temple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

we need 12000 yo DNA to check ;-)

Fire Haired14
12-10-15, 20:00
Look, who actually defended the ydna J is not EEF but a EEF+Teal merging idea based on the fact that it is close cousin of I? ME

BUT the point is that J is Obviously connected to farming /Herding cultures why is it so hard to understand. All other J samples are in Teal and EEF context. But than we have one Keralian J who has no autosomal sign of anything farmer like. That brings us back to our (Angela and me) initial theory, that this and as well some of the R1b in Samara H&G could be founder effect and through mixing with local WHG groups the Teal could have been so deluded until it autosomally disappeared.

So if there is J without any sign of farming genes in Karelian, there is R1b in Neolithic Iberian without any sign of EHG admixture. Why shouldn't it be possible that the autosomal DNA got deluted in both groups?

What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.

Goga
12-10-15, 21:00
What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.Oh really? And where was that hg. J from? It didn't came out of the blue and has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is West Asia, where also R1a and R1b are from.

LeBrok
12-10-15, 22:16
I don't think we yet know who "invented" farming, and whether the various hunter-gatherers had already mixed by that time. A related question is how far south did these I and C lineages penetrate?

I suppose it also depends on how you define "farming". I don't think it's just reaping and then storing wild grain. As to whether replanting wild seeds to have the plants closer to hand constitutes farming is one of those questions that archaeologists obsess over. :)

I can see attaching the three I and C y lineages to WHG like populations, but what about H?
Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg/220px-Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.

Angela
12-10-15, 23:21
Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg/220px-Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.

I think the PPN went a bit further north into Anatolia than this graphic shows, and this includes southeast Anatolia. Also, as Bicicleur pointed out, there were different kinds of "farming", cereals-Natufians (but some scholars say also or perhaps even earlier in the foothills further inland with a perhaps different population ), and pulses, nuts etc. slightly north, but generally I agree.

It's quite different, the mix of yDna, compared to Mesolithic Europe. The archaeology supports it, I think. These people were fortunate. Their environment was rich with plants, animals, had a good, moderate climate, and adequate water during most periods. The population grew pretty rapidly even before they actually domesticated the animals and plants.

These larger populations came into contact with each other, and they wound up exchanging seeds, animals, technology, etc., for a few thousand years before a bunch of them set off for Europe. I think the genetics got really mixed as well, although perhaps Egypt was a bit apart. I think the farmers were pretty mixed by the time they got there. The mixing population that went into East Africans was still closest to "Sardinians" and Stuttgart, after all.

Large populations and contact with other cultures bring their challenges but they certainly have their advantages as well; more chance for beneficial mutations to arise and spread, and more chance for advances in technology to do the same thing. Hybrid vigour and all that. :)

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 04:25
Oh really? And where was that hg. J from? It didn't came out of the blue and has to come from somewhere. And that somewhere is West Asia, where also R1a and R1b are from.

MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.

bicicleur
13-10-15, 08:58
MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.

my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine

bicicleur
13-10-15, 09:02
Right, we still don't know haplogroups of first farmers (Natufians) or surrounding them HGs. What took me be surprise is the plethora of haplogroups. If it comes to HG haplogroups we had quite uniformity in Europe, SHG were I2a, Samara all R1b, farther north R1a, only in the south we could see some mixing of C and I. Either farmers started with already highly mixed base or picked variety from bordering HGs, the fact is that by end of Mesolithic the Near East was already highly diverse in Y chromosomes.
Or maybe I'm ahead of myself once again, because the variety of haplogroups could be just ENF doing. Near East Neolithic was in full swing for at least 2 thousand years , as the PPN, Pre Potery Neolithic, since 8,000 BC, 2ky before they came to West Anatolia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg/220px-Map_of_fertile_crescent.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic

During PPN they had spread from Egypt to Mesopotamia to South Anatolia. 2,000 years is a long time to interact with all the HGs around introducing their Y DNA throughout farmer community. H could have been from Mesopotamia, J2 from Assyria, G2a Natufians. I and C1 native to Anatolia.

no farmers entered Egypt or Africa before the 8.2 ka climate event

but the variety of haplogroups in SW Asia was much bigger than what showed up in this study dealing with NW Anatolia
the haplogroups that entered Africa 8.2 ka were totaly different of those that entered Europe (R1b-V88 and T)

Goga
13-10-15, 09:39
MA1 had R* and lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago. EHG is MA1's closest relative and had lots of R1a1 and R1b1. Native Americans are their next closest and Amerindians have Y DNA Q1a as did some EHG. There's a clear correlation. R1a1 and R1b1 could be from West Asia. Anything is possible. R1a1 and R1b1 may be from North Asia and came to Russia and mixed with WHG types(who had hg J and I?) there. What matters is where R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from because 90%+ of R1a and R1b today belongs to those lineages.You are talking about R*. EHG could be close to MA1 because MA1 was found in that area/region. SO it would be very obvious that it would be close to that area.

Also, later on R* evolved into R1* and R2*. South Central Asia is the home where R2* is very frequent. This means that R* migrated further south into SouthCentral Asia. This is a fact. From there on it migrated into West Asia through the Iranian Plateau. In West Asia R1* evolved into R1b and R1a. And together with J, R1a migrated into the north. You don't have to be a genius to understand this.

Hg. J is native to West Asia. There is J in Northern Europe. You can't deny that J came originally from West Asia and migrated into Europe. So for me this means that R1a* also was native to West Asia and migrted into Europe.


R1b-L23 was full Gedrosia component. R1b-L23 was native to the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes. The same can be said with R1a-M417...

Goga
13-10-15, 09:40
my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine
Exactly, this is how it is. Think only about the hg. R2*. It's more southern than northern...

bicicleur
13-10-15, 13:50
Exactly, this is how it is. Think only about the hg. R2*. It's more southern than northern...

yes, R2 TMRCA estimated is 10.200 years, probably somewhere in northern Pakistan, 1000 years before arrival of agriculture in Mehrgarh

but IMO PIE was somewhere on the steppe, 5th mill BC R1b1a1a-M478* (TMRCA 7300 years), R1b1a2-M269 (TMRCA 6400 years) and R1a1a-M417 (TMRCA 5500 years)*

* PS see Ray Banks Tree https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ev4PSiPdCqiY5ZiCGZD96cks-cXchF2saTfKjNDG21o/edit

•R1b1a1 P297/PF6398 (18656508 G->C)
• • • •R1b1a1a M73 (21888874..21888874 ins->del 2 base pairs)
• • • • •R1b1a1a1 M478 (23444054 T->C)
• • • •R1b1a1b M269 (22739367 T->C)

Maciamo
13-10-15, 13:59
Interesting new paper, although from what I have read so far it confirms everything we already suspected. As I had predicted many years ago, Sintashta evolved from Corded-Ware-related R1a population from north-west Russia, but obviously from a separate branch of R1a than the one that advanced to Poland, Germany and Scandinavia, since Central and South Asians descended from Sintashta are all R1a-Z93. That could easily be inferred from modern data.

It's nice to have some samples from the Khvalynsk culture confirming that both R1a1 and R1b1 were already in the Volga region by 5000 BCE. I am not surprised to find both haplogroups there since it is a buffer region between the southern R1b cultures (Yamna, Maykop) and the northern R1a cultures (Corded Ware, Abashevo, Sintashta).

Likewise, I had placed the Poltavka culture as a mixture of R1a and R1b on my migrations maps, and indeed it was so. The only minor surprise was the presence of Q1a in Khvalynsk, but it isn't far from Siberia and Central Asia, so a bit of admixture with neighbours is to be expected.



The mixture of EHG and an Armenian like group began about 5200 BC, "with some individuals resembling EHG and some resembling Yamnaya". The proportion was about 74%/26%.

So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-European). Here is what I wrote in 2009:


It is not yet entirely clear when R1b crossed over from eastern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. This might have happened with the appearance of the Dnieper-Donets culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper-Donets_culture) (c. 5100-4300 BCE). This was the first truly Neolithic society in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. Domesticated animals (cattle, sheep and goats) were herded throughout the steppes and funeral rituals were elaborate. Sheep wool would play an important role in Indo-European society, notably in the Celtic and Germanic (R1b branches of the Indo-Europeans) clothing traditions up to this day.
...
The first clearly Proto-Indo-European culture was Sredny Stog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog) (4600-3900 BCE), when small kurgan burials begin to appear, with the distinctive posturing of the dead on the back with knees raised and oriented toward the northeast, which would be found in later steppe cultures as well. There is evidence of population blending from the variety of skull shapes. Towards the end of the 5th millennium, an elite starts to develop with cattle, horses and copper used as status symbols.

My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b_migration) (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif




What this paper and other recent papers on ancient Y-DNA have shown is that natural selection has been very active for Y-chromosomes in the last 8,000 years.

For example, what happened to the Anatolian and Balkanic Neolithic H2 ? If we look at region with very high G2a frequencies and EEF ancestry today like Sardinia, the Apennines or Georgia, there isn't any H2 anywhere. One possible explanation is that H2 Y-chromosomes were less competitive and produced less offspring, which gradually weeded it out from the population. But this seems to have happened for quite a few paternal lineages that were once common during the Mesolithic and throughout the Neolithic and even the Early Bronze Age, such as C1a2, F, I*, I2*, J*, K*, P1*, or R1*. The asterisk might as well serve as a reminder that these lineages didn't leave descendants, and therefore no further subclade is available today. Only their brothers or cousins with new mutations perpetuated those haplogroups and what became G2a3b1a, I1a, I2a1a, I2a2a, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a, and so on. C1a2, H2 and P1 never got the right mutations and are virtually extinct today.

In light of this, it would make a lot of sense if the tremendous success of R1a-M417 and R1b-L11 was not purely the result of superior Indo-European technology, warfare, conquest and political domination, but also of advantageous genetic mutations increasing male fertility on the one hand, but also typically male behavioral traits such as dominance, as I suggested in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29116-Influence-of-Y-chromosomal-DNA-mutations-on-behaviour-and-reproductory-success).

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 14:44
I posted a thread: Traits that were Selected for in the last 8,000 years (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31634-Traits-that-were-Selected-for-in-the-last-8-000-years). Focused on the Natural Selection aspect of this paper. Something important to understand IMO is most traits are polygentic. Angela has pointed this out many times. So, each one of the SNPs that showed strong signs of selection are probably only one small part of what causes someone to have a certain trait.

It is interesting that a mutation for defensive reaction to glutine first appears in Neolithic farmers, which probably means it is a farmer-mutation because only farmers eat glutine. Selection for Lactose Tolerance, Pale skin, and reduced fat are the most significant. For most mutations they significantly rose in frequency in the last 4,000 years. A lot can happen in 4,000 years even if there's mostly genetic-continuation in some regions.

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 14:47
@Maciamo,

The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.

Goga
13-10-15, 15:07
@Maciamo,

The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103. What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.

Goga
13-10-15, 15:10
yes, R2 TMRCA estimated is 10.200 years, probably somewhere in northern Pakistan, 1000 years before arrival of agriculture in Mehrgarh

but IMO PIE was somewhere on the steppe, 5th mill BC R1b1a1a-M478* (TMRCA 7300 years), R1b1a2-M269 (TMRCA 6400 years) and R1a1a-M417 (TMRCA 5500 years)*

* PS see Ray Banks Tree https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ev4PSiPdCqiY5ZiCGZD96cks-cXchF2saTfKjNDG21o/edit

•R1b1a1 P297/PF6398 (18656508 G->C)
• • • •R1b1a1a M73 (21888874..21888874 ins->del 2 base pairs)
• • • • •R1b1a1a1 M478 (23444054 T->C)
• • • •R1b1a1b M269 (22739367 T->C)

PIE that entered Europe was from the Steppes. First PIE came from Maykop into Yamnaya and from Yamnaya into Europe.

But Indo-European languages in West Asia were native to West Asia. PIE in West Asia came from the Leyla Tepe (Iranian Plateau).

Alan
13-10-15, 15:13
What you say is possible. However how do you know Teal people gave J to Mesolithic Karelia if Teal ancestry is so diluted it's impossible to detract? You're assuming it is teal with no evidence. My opinion is that R1b1 and J are very old so Neolithic Anatolians and Mesolithic Russians belonged to both lineages but neither appear to be partly descended from each other. So, J in Karelia isn't prove they had Near Eastern ancestry and isn't evidence R1b1 has a Near Eastern origin.

Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.

Goga
13-10-15, 15:15
So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-European). Here is what I wrote in 2009:


My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b_migration) (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

BINGO & JACKPOT !!! But it is not 'Armenian-like' R1b but Leyla-Tepe (Gedrosia/Iranid)-like

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 15:19
Fire I think you doN't see kinda the irony. The theory you propose now. Wasn't it my theory since the beginning of all this discussion? Didn't I said from the beginning that yDNA J, since it is the brother clade of I and close relative of K, would be rather H&G related than. Wasn't this my argument since whole lot of month when people were still keeping to call simply an EEF lineage?

I said the same about R1 lineages if you remember what I wrote on Eurogenes a whole lot of times, that R1 lineages are far too old and probably were widespred all around Eurasia by Neolithic times already. But the point is when I said this no one agreed with me.

Suddenly when a J sample turns out in Keralian H&G people are fine with it, simply out of the fact that they don't want to accept the possibility of farmer DNA reaching EHG so early and destroying their "pure blooded EHG Indo Europeans" theory.

So I repeat again I think if J was already among EHG groups, than this could indicate that the EHG groups ultimately arrived from Central Asia to begin with. And their they might had already came into contact with teal like groups. Other possibility is, that J Haplogroup is so old, just like R1 lineages that it was already widespred among farmers and H&G groups with completely different autosomal DNA.

Few posters suggested R1 is an exclusively EHG lineage. I didn't. I've though what you did all this time. And we need the EHG genome with J to find out if it is negative for J2 and J1. J obviously was originally a WHG/UHG lineage with no Basal Eurasian, so a HG immigration from West Asia to Karelia is possible. The same could be true for R1b1 and R1a1.

Fire Haired14
13-10-15, 15:34
What??? There is no R1a-Z93 in the ' West '. If Z93 was from the west, some native folks there would be from Z93. But most folks in Eastern Europe are evolved from Z282.

It's crazy to believe that R1a-Z93 is from the Eastern Europe. This is 100% not true.

Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.

Goga
13-10-15, 15:48
Actually non-Balto Slavic East Europeans have more Z93 than Z282. The Z93 folk left East Europe and were overrun by N1c. The 2500 BC R1a-Z93 guy had significant "EEF" ancestry which did not exist in the Steppe, it only existed further West in Europe.

Autosomally he resembled Corded Ware the people who gave Z282 to Europe. It should be no surprise Z93 and Z282 come from the same people. The debate it over now because we have prove in ancient DNA, R1a-Z93 originated somewhere around modern day Ukraine.

R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 obviously came from people who had kings who had a million wives while many other men had few or no wives as a result. Overtime everyone became R1a-Z93 in one tribe and R1a-Z282 in another tribe. The original R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z282 men were probably born not much more than 1,000 years before you had tribes who were 100% R1a-Z93 or R1a-Z282.

This method of rich men having tons of wives would have continued as they became admixed with other people. Early R1a-Z93 Indo Iranian from Central Asia mixed heavily with North Asians, Europeans, and SC Asians. In SC Asia they kept the same system of rich men from certain families having tons of wives, which kept R1a-Z93 popular. There's is significant autosomal impact in SC Asia but in other areas there isn't significant autosomal impact and R1a-Z93 is still popular.

You see this all over the world. All Native Americans belong to the same paternal lineage. A similar Bronze age thing happened in lots of places, I mean look at J1 in Arabia, E1b-M81 in NW Africa, R1b-L151 in West Europe.

NO, you're wrong BIG time. There's some Z93 in Europe, but not much maybe a few %, but thats from Iranic folks from the East, like Sarmatians.

When you find ancient Z93 in West Asia it will be autosomally West Asian. Itsall bout the region where you find those skeletons.

R1a-Z93 NEVER came from Ukraine, what the **** are you talking about?? There is not much of Z93 in Ukraine, only some from the Iranic folks.

Z93 was born somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, because Z93 is very diverse on the Iranian Plateau and all the ancestors and the descendants of Z93 live on the Iranian Plateau.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png)


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png)

Maciamo
13-10-15, 15:48
@Maciamo,

The circa 2500 BC R1a-Z94 guy from Poltavka culture was a genetic outlier. He was genetically just like Sintashta, Corded Ware, etc. He was either an immigrant or from an early wave R1a-Z93 people from the West into the Steppe. The Poltavka culture itself probably had 0 or little R1a-Z93 or anykind of R1a, and was almost exclusively R1b-Z2103.

I wrote this (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Asian) in the R1b history and I stand by it:


When R1b crossed the Caucasus in the Late Neolithic, it split into two main groups. The western one (L51) would settle the eastern and northern of the Black Sea. The eastern one (Z2103 + M73) migrated to the Don-Volga region, where horses were domesticated circa 4600 BCE. R1b probably mixed with indigenous R1a people and founded the Repin culture (3700-3300 BCE) a bit before the Yamna culture came into existence in the western Pontic Steppe. R1b would then have migrated with horses along the Great Eurasian Steppe until the Altai mountains in East-Central Asia, where they established the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE). Afanasevo people might be the precursors of the Tocharian branch of Indo-European languages alongside haplogroup R1a.

The R1b people who stayed in the Volga-Ural region were probably the initiators of the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), then became integrated into the R1a-dominant Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE) linked to the Indo-Aryan conquest of Central and South Asia.

The way I see it is that the Poltavka culture was originally R1b, but became progressively invaded by northern R1a-Z93 tribes until it became completely absorbed and gave way to the Sintashta-Petrovka culture. Archaeological cultures don't suddenly shift from one population to another. The replacement is gradual and often the result of external migrations. The same happened with the gradual increase of R1b lineages in Western Europe during the Bell Beaker period.

Goga
13-10-15, 15:52
@ Fire Haired14


I don't know where you get your crazy ideas from? Z93 from UKRAINE??? WTF!!!! There's 0.00 % evidence for that...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786



R1a is cery diverse in West Asia, from the ancestorsto the descendants of Z93. There is EVERYTHING of R1a in West Asia.

Like R1b, also R1a is CONNECTED to GEDROSIA...



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png)

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html

Angela
13-10-15, 15:54
my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine

That's my guess as well. FWIW, :)

Maciamo
13-10-15, 15:55
NO, you're wrong BIG time. There's some Z93 in Europe,but not much maybe a few %, but thats from Iranic folks from the East, likeSarmatians.

When you find ancient Z93 in West Asia it will be autosomally West Asian. Itsall bout the region where you find those skeletons.

R1a-Z93 NEVER came from Ukraine, what the **** are you talking about?? There isnot much of Z93 in Ukraine, only some from the Iranic folks.

Z93 was born somewhere on the Iranian Plateau, because Z93 is very diverse on the Iranian Plateau and all the ancestors and the descendants of Z93 live on the Iranian Plateau.

This is the same flawed logic that people used to justify that R1b originated in Western Europe during the Paleolithic (Cro-Magnons). Modern frequencies don't matter much if you don't look at the progressive migration of subclades over time.

Z93 is a subclade of the Northeast European R1a-S224 and almost certainly arose in north-west Russia. Because all the carriers of this lineage migrated east to Siberia, Central Asia then South Asia, then the Middle East, Z93 almost disappeared from its place of origin, and genetic diversity grew in the most populated regions where Z93 men migrated, namely West and South Asia.

If you are looking for a lineage with origins in Iran or Kurdistan, it is R1b, not R1a. Once again 'raw' modern frequencies don't help without in-depth analysis of the subclades and tracing back archaeological cultures which bore them.

Goga
13-10-15, 16:01
This is the same flawed logic that people used to justify that R1b originated in Western Europe during the Paleolithic (Cro-Magnons). Modern frequencies don't matter much if you don't look at the progressive migration of subclades over time.
But there is no evidence at all that R1a-Z93 is from Ukraine. Nothing.

The fact is that Z93 is correlated with GEDROSIA (Iranid-like) auDNA. All folks that are partly Z93 are full of Gedrosia component. Kurds, Persians, Iranic and even Turkic folks in Central Asia, India, Pakistan, India those who have R1a-Z93 have Gedrosia in them. Gedrosia component is not from Ukraine, isn't it?



R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 etc. = Caucaso-Gedrosian. Think about this one more time..

Maciamo
13-10-15, 16:07
my guess - Q survived the LGM in Siberia, but not R who survived after moving further south near the Hindu Kush and after that R1 tribes moved west toward NW Iran, only after the youngest dryas some R1 tribes crossed the Caucasus to enter the steppe
this J was an individual they picked up south of the Caucasus, just like R1b-V88 learned about cattle herding from J

there is a 2014 study by Underhill claiming origin of R1a in NW Iran
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29701-New-R1a-Paper-by-Underhill-et-al-(2014

but your guesses are as good as mine

My guess is that both Q and R tribes roamed all over Siberia and Central Asia around the LGM. If they needed to seek refuge from the cold, both would have chosen Central Asia. One distinction within Q is that Q1a eventually spread mostly northward to Siberia (probably in the last 20,000 years, just as the LGM ended), while Q1b remained in Central Asia, then hitchhiked with R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 to the Middle East (see Q history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml#history) for more details).

LeBrok
13-10-15, 16:47
no farmers entered Egypt or Africa before the 8.2 ka climate event
)
We are in agreement, PP Neolithic started 8,000 BC, that's 10 kya, and way before 8.2 kya.

bicicleur
13-10-15, 16:50
My guess is that both Q and R tribes roamed all over Siberia and Central Asia around the LGM. If they needed to seek refuge from the cold, both would have chosen Central Asia. One distinction within Q is that Q1a eventually spread mostly northward to Siberia (probably in the last 20,000 years, just as the LGM ended), while Q1b remained in Central Asia, then hitchhiked with R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 to the Middle East (see Q history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml#history) for more details).

I believe Q*, Q1b, R1 and R2 survived south of central Asia (Hindu Kush - Kupruk area ? http://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html)
but Q1a1 and Q1a2 survived in Siberia

MA1 was 24000 yo and R*
but there was 2nd skeleton in the same study, AG2, 17000 yo with low coverage and related to MA1
AG2 has been tentatively identified as Q1a1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242



Afontova-Gora2, Yenisei River Bank, Krasnoyarsk(Altai, South Siberia of Russia), 17000YBP: Q1a1-F1215(mtDNA R)[53] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#cite_note-53)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242

(by your good friend Genetiker)

IMO Q1a2-L56, ancestral to both Amerindian Q-M3 and Q-Z780 would have survived LGM on the (then dry bottom of the ) Sea of Ochotsk after retreating south from the Dyuktai cave area (Aldan river, tributary to Lena River)

LeBrok
13-10-15, 16:58
Interesting new paper, although from what I have read so far it confirms everything we already suspected. As I had predicted many years ago, Sintashta evolved from Corded-Ware-related R1a population from north-west Russia, but obviously from a separate branch of R1a than the one that advanced to Poland, Germany and Scandinavia, since Central and South Asians descended from Sintashta are all R1a-Z93. That could easily be inferred from modern data.

It's nice to have some samples from the Khvalynsk culture confirming that both R1a1 and R1b1 were already in the Volga region by 5000 BCE. I am not surprised to find both haplogroups there since it is a buffer region between the southern R1b cultures (Yamna, Maykop) and the northern R1a cultures (Corded Ware, Abashevo, Sintashta).

Likewise, I had placed the Poltavka culture as a mixture of R1a and R1b on my migrations maps, and indeed it was so. The only minor surprise was the presence of Q1a in Khvalynsk, but it isn't far from Siberia and Central Asia, so a bit of admixture with neighbours is to be expected.



So Armenian-like R1b would have moved to the Pontic Steppe around 5200 BCE ? I needed confirmation on that point, but it is actually the timing I had suggested in my history of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Indo-European). Here is what I wrote in 2009:



My migration map showed R1b crossing the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppe some time between 6000 and 5000 BCE, and my first migration map of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b_migration) (the Flash version, which I can't paste on the forum) indicated 7000 ybp for that trans-Caucasian migration. So it is reassuring that was intuition was right on the timing as well as the geography.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif




What this paper and other recent papers on ancient Y-DNA have shown is that natural selection has been very active for Y-chromosomes in the last 8,000 years.

For example, what happened to the Anatolian and Balkanic Neolithic H2 ? If we look at region with very high G2a frequencies and EEF ancestry today like Sardinia, the Apennines or Georgia, there isn't any H2 anywhere. One possible explanation is that H2 Y-chromosomes were less competitive and produced less offspring, which gradually weeded it out from the population. But this seems to have happened for quite a few paternal lineages that were once common during the Mesolithic and throughout the Neolithic and even the Early Bronze Age, such as C1a2, F, I*, I2*, J*, K*, P1*, or R1*. The asterisk might as well serve as a reminder that these lineages didn't leave descendants, and therefore no further subclade is available today. Only their brothers or cousins with new mutations perpetuated those haplogroups and what became G2a3b1a, I1a, I2a1a, I2a2a, R1b1a2a1, R1a1a1a, and so on. C1a2, H2 and P1 never got the right mutations and are virtually extinct today.

In light of this, it would make a lot of sense if the tremendous success of R1a-M417 and R1b-L11 was not purely the result of superior Indo-European technology, warfare, conquest and political domination, but also of advantageous genetic mutations increasing male fertility on the one hand, but also typically male behavioral traits such as dominance, as I suggested in this thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29116-Influence-of-Y-chromosomal-DNA-mutations-on-behaviour-and-reproductory-success).The amount you got right so far is quite astonishing. I'm suspecting you are in possession of time machine. ;)

Maciamo
13-10-15, 19:01
But there is no evidence at all that R1a-Z93 is from Ukraine. Nothing.

The fact is that Z93 is correlated with GEDROSIA (Iranid-like) auDNA. All folks that are partly Z93 are full of Gedrosia component. Kurds, Persians, Iranic and even Turkic folks in Central Asia, India, Pakistan, India those who have R1a-Z93 have Gedrosia in them. Gedrosia component is not from Ukraine, isn't it?

R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 etc. = Caucaso-Gedrosian. Think about this one more time..


Y-DNA doesn't correlate well with autosomal DNA because it gets diluted every generation by the maternal line once its leaves its region of origin. There are Z93 in Siberia and Mongolia that have almost nothing in common with Iranian or Indian Z93 - except for a little of East European admixture.

Anyway I never said Ukraine but north-west Russia. Ukraine was settled by R1b tribes, then was overrun by R1a-M458 (and some CTS1211).

Goga
13-10-15, 19:38
Y-DNA doesn't correlate well with autosomal DNA because it gets diluted every generation by the maternal line once its leaves its region of origin. There are Z93 in Siberia and Mongolia that have almost nothing in common with Iranian or Indian Z93 - except for a little of East European admixture.

Anyway I never said Ukraine but north-west Russia. Ukraine was settled by R1b tribes, then was overrun by R1a-M458 (and some CTS1211).
I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).

arvistro
13-10-15, 20:39
I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).
N arrived into NW Russia after R1a...

Goga
13-10-15, 20:52
N arrived into NW Russia after R1a...
Don't think so. NortheWest Russia, Scandinavia, Balitcs were always home of people like Saami, Eskimos etc. Native peope of Northern Europe were Finno-Ugric, Uralic related to Saami and were Saami-like folks.

Sigfrido
13-10-15, 21:08
LoL Eskimos! Anyway only J and R1a are native of Karelia. I dunno about other parts of NW Russia.

arvistro
13-10-15, 21:15
Don't think so. NortheWest Russia, Scandinavia, Balitcs were always home of people like Saami, Eskimos etc. Native peope of Northern Europe were Finno-Ugric, Uralic related to Saami and were Saami-like folks.

Some good decades or even centuries of research are keeping us from such statements :)

holderlin
13-10-15, 21:29
Some good decades or even centuries of research are keeping us from such statements :)

I still say Goga is Maciamo.

Goga
13-10-15, 21:31
LoL Eskimos! Anyway only J and R1a are native of Karelia. I dunno about other parts of NW Russia.
You're ignoring the biggest part of human history. Native people of Northern Europe should be protected. There were enough genocides against Saami and other Finno-Ugric and Uralic folks in Northern Europe. I feel sorry for the very first native European folks. After many genocides now people are denying that their race was the first race in Europe and they are denying their very existance. Shame on YOU !

Hg. J & R1a are more native to Mars than to Karelia.

holderlin
13-10-15, 21:34
You're ignoring the biggest part of human history. Native people of Northern Europe should be protected. There were enough genocides against Saami and other Finno-Ugric and Uralic folks in Northern Europe. I feel sorry for the very first native European folks. After many genocides now people are denying that their race was the first race in Europe and they are denying their existance.

Hg. J & R1a is more native to Mars than to Karelia.





You're on a roll now you gotta keep it going.

In my opinion G2a is native to Karelia also.

holderlin
13-10-15, 21:38
This is turning into the something like the global warming argument.

Goga
13-10-15, 21:39
You're on a roll now you gotta keep it going.

In my opinion G2a is native to Karelia also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG3JEJFl_6k

skaheen15
13-10-15, 22:55
I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).

The earliest R1a carrier we've seen, from Mesolithic Karelia, had negligible near-eastern ancestry.
The earliest M417(ancestral to Z93) so far was found in eastern Europe.

*Z93(descended from M417, which we know Corded Ware had) is in eastern Europe, in very small numbers, almost as if it originated there and then left en masse, which would make sense since it's downstream clades are found to the east of this area.
No *Z93 has been found in south or central Asia.

Sintashta(who had Z93 and Z94) did not get their large amounts of western(WHG and EEF) ancestry from assimilated Slavs.
If Z93 had been moving from east to west, instead of the other way around, the Sintashta folks wouldn't look like Belarusians.

So it's obvious that you don't care about facts, your fantasy comes first.

Goga
13-10-15, 23:12
The earliest R1a carrier we've seen, from Mesolithic Karelia, had negligible near-eastern ancestry.
The earliest M417(ancestral to Z93) so far was found in eastern Europe.

*Z93(descended from M417, which we know Corded Ware had) is in eastern Europe, in very small numbers, almost as if it originated there and then left en masse, which would make sense since it's downstream clades are found to the east of this area.
No *Z93 has been found in south or central Asia.

Sintashta(who had Z93 and Z94) did not get their large amounts of western(WHG and EEF) ancestry from assimilated Slavs.
If Z93 had been moving from east to west, instead of the other way around, the Sintashta folks wouldn't look like Belarusians.

So it's obvious that you don't care about facts, your fantasy comes first.You definitely missed the last academic paper on R1a.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786


If you research the ancient Persian or ancient Media R1a-Z93 it would have mostly West Asian ancestry.

If you will reaserch R1a around BMAC it wil be mostly West Asian. Its all about where you find that haplogroup. They found hg. J in Kareila. It had no West Asian ancetry, while we all know that hg. J is native to West Asia.


There is more archaic *Z93 in modern West Asian population than elsewhere. Z94 was evolved from Z93 on Iranian Plateau and not in Europe.


If R1a came from Europe it would also take real Euro haplogroups, like I1, N1c1 etc., with them. It was not the case. So, that's bull.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png)

Goga
13-10-15, 23:16
Also, I have the feeling that some people desperately like too connect them to te ancient Aryans who invaded India.

Folks that are not even closely related to Z94. Z94 has NOTHING to do with Europe. It was born and evolved OUTSIDE Europe at the first place.


Aryans were J2a, G, R1a-Z94, R2 & T etc. folks. Nothing to do with Europe. They were Iranid Caucaso-Gedrosia folks from BMAC. They spoke Iranic and not Slavic or something, lol. They had an Iranic culture and not a Slavic culture, etc..

Goga
13-10-15, 23:35
There archaic R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93, is frequent in even the modernday West Asian population, while R1a-M198 is almost absent in Europe.


It's ALL about R1a-M198

Goga
13-10-15, 23:45
R1a-M198 is determinative where Z93 or even Z283 is from.

The most basic and archaic R1a-M198 is in West Asia. Game, set, match ..



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png)



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GzKeWXBRL8c/UzmCm9DhxHI/AAAAAAAACEw/sVkJ9ToxBVc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Western+Europe.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GzKeWXBRL8c/UzmCm9DhxHI/AAAAAAAACEw/sVkJ9ToxBVc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Western+Europe.png)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IdGJUcIblog/UzmCjZAPwdI/AAAAAAAACEo/V1F9hRAEv6o/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Eastern+Europe.png)



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786


http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html

skaheen15
14-10-15, 00:03
Also, I have the feeling that some people desperately like too connect them to te ancient Aryans who invaded India.

Folks that are not even closely related to Z94. Z94 has NOTHING to do with Europe. It was born and evolved OUTSIDE Europe at the first place.


Aryans were J2a, G, R1a-Z94, R2 & T etc. folks. Nothing to do with Europe. They were Iranid Caucaso-Gedrosia folks from BMAC. They spoke Iranic and not Slavic or something, lol. They had an Iranic culture and not a Slavic culture, etc..

Kind of like how you desperately(see, I can type in boldface too!) want your own ethnic group to be the center of the entire human species?

You see that thing you do? The thing where you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being biased and dogmatic, all the time? There's a name for that in psychology, it's called projection. And it's really awkward to watch.

Your goofy chart just tells us what we already knew, we're all familiar with the modern day distribution of Z93.
We're talking about where it originated, and how it spread, not where it is today.

Once again, if Sintashta had gotten it's Z93 from BMAC, they wouldn't look like a cross between Belarusians and Estonians, and obviously Poltavka didn't get it's Z93 from BMAC, unless BMAC had time machines. Maybe we should test Dr. Who's DNA, if he's Z93 it might help your case.

You haven't answered a single point that's been put to you with anything but repetitive drivel.

And finally, you were the one who said that anyone in Siberia with east European admixture must have gotten it from Slavs.
My point was that, since there were no "Slavs" as such in 2200 BCE, that idea obviously wouldn't explain Sintashta, who were very literally Z93-bearing immigrants from eastern Europe, whether you like it or not.

Goga
14-10-15, 00:25
Kind of like how you desperately(see, I can type in boldface too!) want your own ethnic group to be the center of the entire human species?

You see that thing you do? The thing where you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being biased and dogmatic, all the time? There's a name for that in psychology, it's called projection. And it's really awkward to watch.

Your goofy chart just tells us what we already knew, we're all familiar with the modern day distribution of Z93.
We're talking about where it originated, and how it spread, not where it is today.

Once again, if Sintashta had gotten it's Z93 from BMAC, they wouldn't look like a cross between Belarusians and Estonians, and obviously Poltavka didn't get it's Z93 from BMAC, unless BMAC had time machines. Maybe we should test Dr. Who's DNA, if he's Z93 it might help your case.

You haven't answered a single point that's been put to you with anything but repetitive drivel.

And finally, you were the one who said that anyone in Siberia with east European admixture must have gotten it from Slavs.
My point was that, since there were no "Slavs" as such in 2200 BCE, that idea obviously wouldn't explain Sintashta, who were very literally Z93-bearing immigrants from eastern Europe, whether you like it or not.
I wrote Eastern European and meant ancestors of Slavic folks.

And what are you talking about? R1a in Sintashta can be an assimilated fella whom ancestors came from BMAC. R1a in Shistasha proofs nothing. This very fact doesn't debunk the fact that R1a-Z93 and R1a-M198 are from the Iranian Plateau. Shistasha isn't directly connected with the Iranian Plateau at the first place. It was not even Iranid. It's more further north of it. And this Shistasha, Poltavka etc. nonsense has nothing to do with R1a-M198. If they find Z93 or Z94 around BMAC and it will not have West Asian roots, then I would argue with you. But then again, that will NEVER happen.


Once AGAIN, it's all about R1a-M198 ancestor of R1a-Z93 !

Finalise
14-10-15, 00:54
Maciamo must be inhaling some paint fumes or something. His migration route theories arent crazy, but this theories about natural selection of y-chromosomes are up there with the lizard people controlling world governments.

holderlin
14-10-15, 01:10
Maciamo must be inhaling some paint fumes or something. His migration route theories arent crazy, but this theories about natural selection of y-chromosomes are up there with the lizard people controlling world governments.

It's a bit heavy handed even for a chroll account. All those bold faces and exclamation points.

And we do control all governments.

holderlin
14-10-15, 01:12
Does anyone know where we might find skulls from some of these excavations?

Fire Haired14
14-10-15, 02:15
Maciamo must be inhaling some paint fumes or something. His migration route theories arent crazy, but this theories about natural selection of y-chromosomes are up there with the lizard people controlling world governments.

He made those maps 5 years ago and is mostly correct!! Give him a break.

holderlin
14-10-15, 02:21
What will it take to settle this? I think I've forgotten what the argument is. PIE used to be a historical linguistic definition. In these threads it becomes where M269/L23 or M417 came from, regardless of anything else, which I understand, but it still distorts the issue.

Do we need L23's and M417's that are all teal in Maykop? Or conversley G2a's and J's that are all teal? With the evidence so far one would have to conclude, at this juncture, that it's more likely that the IE R1a and R1b males lines originated on the steppe, and yet all I see is that it's "still possible" that M417/L23/M269 originate in West Asia.

We already have all EHG R1b and R1a. We have R1b1 and R1a1 together on the steppe (60/40 EHG/Teal or something like that) in a horizon that most archaeologist attribute as one of the, if not the predecessor to Yamnaya (I'll spare everyone on this topic but it's crazy all of the archaeology that's ignored in these "PIE" arguments), both of which are ancestral to L23/M269 and M417, respectively. And yet all I'm seeing is talk about how they're "basal" and likely "dead ends". Doesn't matter.

In actual Yamnaya sites we have M269 and Z2103 with about 40% teal, both of which lineages are descended from older lines that have also been found in ancient samples on the steppe, the earliest of which are all EHG. And of course they have farmer mitochondrial lines.

I'm pretty sure teal as far as we know is still just a component of basal Eurasian. We don't even know if there ever was a population of all or nearly all teal and yet there's this strange hope for the all teal R1b's.

I get the fact that a ton of questions are unanswered, but with all the evidence one would have to leans towards a steppe origin for supposed PIE male lines. To me it looks a lot like denial of the data.

So what am I missing? I'm at work and I'm tired so I'm not ruling out mental disability.

Fire Haired14
14-10-15, 02:23
I don't know much about diluting of auDNA, all I'm sure about is that original R1a and even original R1a-Z93 was heavily Caucaso-Gedrosian, NorthWest Russia is home for N1c1 and not R1a at all. There is no evidence for that. N1c1 is a Nordic haplogroup.

East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people. How many times Mongoloid people raided Eastern Europe and took (mostly female) prisoners with them?

The possibility is huge that R1a entered Europe from the Iranian Plateau via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan (east of the Caspian Sea).

Then why hasn't N1c been found in Mesolithic Russia, why is it all R1a1, R1b1, J, and Q1a? And it unlogical to put personalities to prehistoric people groups. You're treating N1c1, etc. as better than other Euro haplogroups and giving it an image of the original the native. It's not that simple.

Anyways, the reason you say N1c1 is the only original Y DNA of NE Europe, is because you don't want anything in West Asia to have a European origin. You want Europeans to either be innocent natives who never migrated out of Europe or from West Asians. Everything doesn't go from West Asia>Europe. And all early human technological achievements didn't come from West Asia.

West Asia isn't the source of everything. In the past no one had world maps and when they gradually moved from one location to another(there was very rarelly ever transcontinental migrations), they could potentially go in any direction, Europe doesn't always have to be on the receiving end. There's European ancestry in West and SC Asia. Actually Bronze age East Europeans fit as the best West Eurasian proxy ancestors for SC Asians.

I can tell you're taking Pre-History genetics to a personal level. That's normal I used to do it. I wanted everything to be from Germany(inclu. IEs) at first and tricked myself into thinking that. And you need to grow up like I did. It doesn't make your people(Kurds) inferior if they have European ancestry or if their language is ultimately from Europe. No one was raciest in the Bronze age. They had a small world view, restricted to their small regions. Indo Iranians were already heavily admixed by the time they made it to Iran and Iraq anyways.

Goga
14-10-15, 03:04
Then why hasn't N1c been found in Mesolithic Russia, why is it all R1a1, R1b1, J, and Q1a? And it unlogical to put personalities to prehistoric people groups. You're treating N1c1, etc. as better than other Euro haplogroups and giving it an image of the original the native. It's not that simple.

Anyways, the reason you say N1c1 is the only original Y DNA of NE Europe, is because you don't want anything in West Asia to have a European origin. You want Europeans to either be innocent natives who never migrated out of Europe or from West Asians. Everything doesn't go from West Asia>Europe. And all early human technological achievements didn't come from West Asia.

West Asia isn't the source of everything. In the past no one had world maps and when they gradually moved from one location to another(there was very rarelly ever transcontinental migrations), they could potentially go in any direction, Europe doesn't always have to be on the receiving end. There's European ancestry in West and SC Asia. Actually Bronze age East Europeans fit as the best West Eurasian proxy ancestors for SC Asians.

I can tell you're taking Pre-History genetics to a personal level. That's normal I used to do it. I wanted everything to be from Germany(inclu. IEs) at first and tricked myself into thinking that. And you need to grow up like I did. It doesn't make your people(Kurds) inferior if they have European ancestry or if their language is ultimately from Europe. No one was raciest in the Bronze age. They had a small world view, restricted to their small regions. Indo Iranians were already heavily admixed by the time they made it to Iran and Iraq anyways.
I don't want anything. The only thing I want is a free Kurdistan right NOW.


I'm just a history geek and love the ancient times. I'm a romantic who wants to understand the present. To understand the present you need to know the past. And all the things I read on internet I don't agree with it. And that's why I try to give a different voice be real and not parroting the nonsense of others with hidden agendas.

Many people on internet are not really smart and are very manipulative and believe others with hidden agenda to get rid of their insecurity and to boost their ego.

But this is not how history works. You can't change history. It is what it is.

Russia is a huge country if they look long and good enough they will find enough archaic N1c1 there. Even in Scandinavia, Saami ancestral homeland, they will find ancient N1c1.

East Euro auDNA component is not fully Caucasoid. It's heavily mixed with Mongoloid, Uralic and Finno-Ugric races. That's why we see that component everywhere in the Northern and Eastern areas of Eurasia. It's where Caucasoid and Mongoloid people met with each other and heavily mixed with each other and from the romantic times Eastern Euro (EHG) component was born. Part of East-Euro folks is related to folks like Eskimos, Saami, Amerindian folks..


EHG = Caucasoid + Mongoloid/Uralic/Finno-Ugric races


I'm a true Iranid person. All my ancestors were Iranid. My culture is Iranic, my native religion is West Iranic and my language is West Iranic.

I think that proto-Iranid folks, my direct ancestors, were fully Caucasoid and has NOTHING to do with EHG. It doesn't make any sense if they were party Mongoloid/EHG

They were Caucaso-Gedrosian (mixture of ANE and EEF), nothing Mongoloid/EHG in them. I will never believe in this nonsense and will always fight against this nonsens!

So, R1a-M198 was not Mongoloid/EHG, but fully Caucasoid (Caucaso-Gedrosian/EEF+ANE)

When people speak about Indo-Iranians and spread lies, they spread lies about my ancestry, about my roots. I take this somehow very personal. Of course when I don't agree with them, I always want to make my case more clear.


For me it's all about the truth and nothing but the truth.

skaheen15
14-10-15, 06:50
I wrote Eastern European and meant ancestors of Slavic folks.

And what are you talking about? R1a in Sintashta can be an assimilated fella whom ancestors came from BMAC. R1a in Shistasha proofs nothing. This very fact doesn't debunk the fact that R1a-Z93 and R1a-M198 are from the Iranian Plateau. Shistasha isn't directly connected with the Iranian Plateau at the first place. It was not even Iranid. It's more further north of it. And this Shistasha, Poltavka etc. nonsense has nothing to do with R1a-M198. If they find Z93 or Z94 around BMAC and it will not have West Asian roots, then I would argue with you. But then again, that will NEVER happen.


Once AGAIN, it's all about R1a-M198 ancestor of R1a-Z93 !


You wrote:
"East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people".
That's what you wrote.

Again, Sintashta was in Siberia, and, very obviously were recent immigrants from northeastern Europe, very recent indeed.
I'm not sure if you can read a PCA plot or not, but, if you could, you could see for yourself that Sintashta clusters between Belarusians, Ukrainians, and various Baltic folk. Very, very European. They're closer to Scandinavia than they are to anyone in south or central Asia.

Now, according to you, this very militaristic, aggressive, expansionist culture, which was almost certainly very, very patriarchal, and whose men seem to have belonged entirely to Z93(which, again, has now been found further west several centuries before Sintashta), "can be an assimilated fella whose ancestors came from BMAC". Right. That's why they look like Lithuanians, because their grandfathers came from BMAC. Makes perfect sense. Those BMAC guys evidently went all the way up to the Baltic coast, too, because Baltic languages and mythology are very, very similar to their old Indic equivalents, and it dosen't end there.

But ok, I'll bite. What about the R1a in Khvalynsk? Or that Karelian forager? Did they get their R1a from BMAC as well? Or were there multiple invasions from south Asia which reached northern Russia and the Baltic area, over the span of nearly 3,000 years? There's no archaeological evidence whatsoever to support that scenario, and you know that very well. On the other hand, it's very clear that Sintashta is derived from Abashevo, which was part of the Corded Ware horizon, so, your mental picture of BMAC must be of a lost civilization with time travel technology(it honestly wouldn't surprise me if you thought that), otherwise your whole argument, which was never coherent to begin with, falls apart very quickly.

You can try to shift the goal posts around all you want, but you've already lost.
All the giant boldface type in the world ain't gonna change that, brah.

Goga
14-10-15, 12:44
You wrote:
"East European admixture in Siberia and Mongolia is from the assimilated Slavic (Russian) people".
That's what you wrote.

Again, Sintashta was in Siberia, and, very obviously were recent immigrants from northeastern Europe, very recent indeed.
I'm not sure if you can read a PCA plot or not, but, if you could, you could see for yourself that Sintashta clusters between Belarusians, Ukrainians, and various Baltic folk. Very, very European. They're closer to Scandinavia than they are to anyone in south or central Asia.

Now, according to you, this very militaristic, aggressive, expansionist culture, which was almost certainly very, very patriarchal, and whose men seem to have belonged entirely to Z93(which, again, has now been found further west several centuries before Sintashta), "can be an assimilated fella whose ancestors came from BMAC". Right. That's why they look like Lithuanians, because their grandfathers came from BMAC. Makes perfect sense. Those BMAC guys evidently went all the way up to the Baltic coast, too, because Baltic languages and mythology are very, very similar to their old Indic equivalents, and it dosen't end there.

But ok, I'll bite. What about the R1a in Khvalynsk? Or that Karelian forager? Did they get their R1a from BMAC as well? Or were there multiple invasions from south Asia which reached northern Russia and the Baltic area, over the span of nearly 3,000 years? There's no archaeological evidence whatsoever to support that scenario, and you know that very well. On the other hand, it's very clear that Sintashta is derived from Abashevo, which was part of the Corded Ware horizon, so, your mental picture of BMAC must be of a lost civilization with time travel technology(it honestly wouldn't surprise me if you thought that), otherwise your whole argument, which was never coherent to begin with, falls apart very quickly.

You can try to shift the goal posts around all you want, but you've already lost.
All the giant boldface type in the world ain't gonna change that, brah.Your post is full of bias. I shouldn't even bother to reply to it, you don't understand it or you don't want to understand it.

And YES, East Euro admixture in Sybirya /Sybiria is not that old. Mongols and Turkic tribes raided Eastern Europe for a very long time. And what you seems to forget is that all the North of Eurasia was partly Mongoloid, from Scandinavia, Eastern Europe all the way into Kamchatka Peninsula folks were.

Full, not mixed EHG component in the Eastern Euro folks is for a huge part Mongoloid and related to all other mongoloid folks in North of Eurasia. Original EHG was at the beginning even closely related to Eskimos in Alaska.

EHG was native not only to NorthEastern part of Europe but to all parts of Northern Eurasia. So there was a continuation of EHG/Mongoloid auDNA from Scandinavia into Kamchatka Peninsula. There were no invasions. People lived next to each other for (hundred) thousands of years there.

R1a-Z93 is MUCH older than Sintashta.
Sintashta is not that old. R1a-Z93 is much older than the Sintashta culture. Also, BMAC is older than Sintasha. R1a-Z93 could even migrate into Siberia way before Sintashta culture was ever found. By the time when nomadic culture of Sintashta was born, Z93 was already assimilated and integrated by the EHG-folks. So, what are you talking about?

R1a-M198 was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.


Corded Ware has no DIRECT links with BMAC. Corded Ware is NOT R1a-Z93. It's not even determined either Corded Ware was founded by R1b, by R1a-Z82 or other folks.
Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by folks from Yamnaya and Yanmnaya was R1b and not R1a.

Karelian R1a has nothing to do with R1a-Z93 or even R1a-M198 either. It was there long before Yamnyaya and could come from West Asia through Caucasus or the Balkans, after the last ice age:Weichselian glaciation. Alongside with Karelian R1a they found also hg. J and R1b.

There were many waves of migration from West Asia into Europe. Some very ancient R1a together with other West Asian haplogroups could brought to that area. But those lineages are moslty dead.

Oldest branches of R1a are still from and being found in West Asia.


And also, you are ingnoring the fact that there is almost no R1a-M198 (ancestor of Z93) in the northern parts of Eurasia. R1a-Z93 in northern parts of Eurasia migrated from the Iranian Plateau way before nomadic (non-Iranid) cultures like Sintashta were born..

Goga
14-10-15, 13:02
I was not discussing Sintashta etc. but I was discussing Z93 and it's ancestor. Z93 and M198 are much older than Sintashta. You're derailing my initial discussion on purpose. And also let's talk about R1a-M198 which is the ANCESTOR of Z93. Why are you ignoring to talk about R1a-M198? R1a-M198 gave life to R1a-Z93 and there is noR1a-M198 North Eurasia.

Why do you avoid to talk about R1a-M198? R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93, was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.

skaheen15
14-10-15, 14:45
Your post is full of bias. I shouldn't even bother to reply to it, you don't understand it or you don't want to understand it.

And YES, East Euro admixture in Sybirya /Sybiria is not that old. Mongols and Turkic tribes raided Eastern Europe for a very long time. And what you seems to forget is that all the North of Eurasia was partly Mongoloid, from Scandinavia, Eastern Europe all the way into Kamchatka Peninsula folks were.

Full, not mixed EHG component in the Eastern Euro folks is for a huge part Mongoloid and related to all other mongoloid folks in North of Eurasia. Original EHG was at the beginning even closely related to Eskimos in Alaska.

EHG was native not only to NorthEastern part of Europe but to all parts of Northern Eurasia. So there was a continuation of EHG/Mongoloid auDNA from Scandinavia into Kamchatka Peninsula. There were no invasions. People lived next to each other for (hundred) thousands of years there.

R1a-Z93 is MUCH older than Sintashta.
Sintashta is not that old. R1a-Z93 is much older than the Sintashta culture. Also, BMAC is older than Sintasha. R1a-Z93 could even migrate into Siberia way before Sintashta culture was ever found. By the time when nomadic culture of Sintashta was born, Z93 was already assimilated and integrated by the EHG-folks. So, what are you talking about?

R1a-M198 was in West Asia thousands of years before Sintashta.


Corded Ware has no DIRECT links with BMAC. Corded Ware is NOT R1a-Z93. It's not even determined either Corded Ware was founded by R1b, by R1a-Z82 or other folks.
Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by folks from Yamnaya and Yanmnaya was R1b and not R1a.

Karelian R1a has nothing to do with R1a-Z93 or even R1a-M198 either. It was there long before Yamnyaya and could come from West Asia through Caucasus or the Balkans, after the last ice age:Weichselian glaciation. Alongside with Karelian R1a they found also hg. J and R1b.

There were many waves of migration from West Asia into Europe. Some very ancient R1a together with other West Asian haplogroups could brought to that area. But those lineages are moslty dead.

Oldest branches of R1a are still from and being found in West Asia.


And also, you are ingnoring the fact that there is almost no R1a-M198 (ancestor of Z93) in the northern parts of Eurasia. R1a-Z93 in northern parts of Eurasia migrated from the Iranian Plateau way before nomadic (non-Iranid) cultures like Sintashta were born..



And, the projector comes on!

1. Almost everything you claim is totally speculative. When you're faced with facts that don't appeal to you, because of your screamingly obvious bias, you just accuse the source of bias, and move on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

2. The earliest known M198 was found in Corded Ware. That's a fact.

3. M198 was and is in northern Eurasia. That's also a fact.

4. "Yanmnyaya" were descended from Khvalynsk, who had both R1a and R1b. Another fact. Catch up, for God's sake.

5. All of the most ancient basal R1a found to date has been found in northern Eurasia. All of it.

6. It's been explained to you over and over again, by more than one user here, that modern day haplogroup distributions don't necessarily correlate with their origins, in fact they often don't. R1b did not originate in western Europe, for example.

6. EHG as we know them were distantly related to native American populations through their ANE ancestors, it's not a direct relationship. To say that Mesolithic EHGs were "closely related" to Eskimos is hilarious.

7. You have no evidence whatsoever that M198 was in western Asia thousands of years before Sintashta. None at all.


I'll leave you to your projecting duties now. Stay bold, maaannn...

Goga
14-10-15, 15:36
And, the projector comes on!

1. Almost everything you claim is totally speculative. When you're faced with facts that don't appeal to you, because of your screamingly obvious bias, you just accuse the source of bias, and move on. Wash, rinse, repeat.

2. The earliest known M198 was found in Corded Ware. That's a fact.

3. M198 was and is in northern Eurasia. That's also a fact.

4. "Yanmnyaya" were descended from Khvalynsk, who had both R1a and R1b. Another fact. Catch up, for God's sake.

5. All of the most ancient basal R1a found to date has been found in northern Eurasia. All of it.

6. It's been explained to you over and over again, by more than one user here, that modern day haplogroup distributions don't necessarily correlate with their origins, in fact they often don't. R1b did not originate in western Europe, for example.

6. EHG as we know them were distantly related to native American populations through their ANE ancestors, it's not a direct relationship. To say that Mesolithic EHGs were "closely related" to Eskimos is hilarious.

7. You have no evidence whatsoever that M198 was in western Asia thousands of years before Sintashta. None at all.


I'll leave you to your projecting duties now. Stay bold, maaannn...
First of all you seem to have missed (or ignoring on purpose) the last academic paper on R1a: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786


1. Everything you claim is not biased, but twisted/manipulated to your own preferences.

2. Wrong AGAIN! Corded Ware was R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) and NOT basal M198 what you are claiming. You're lying AGAIN! They found also R1b in Corded Ware. It's most likely that Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by West Asian R1b from Yamnaya.

3. Wrong again! Nobody found ever ancient M198 in northern Eurasia. Once again you're lying and ignoring the last academic paper on R1a.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rWXCvL4GZrw/UzmCbNmiSdI/AAAAAAAACEY/4RKvn8PPSrM/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Central+Asia.png


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2014/03/underhill-et-al-2014.html


4. Wrong again. Yamaya was derived from Maykop. You're twisting the facts here once again. It's a proven FACT that Yamnaya comes from Maykop (West Asia). I don't even want to go into it.

5. No, it's a lie again. The oldest and most basal R1a and even M198 has been found in West Asia. Read this paper again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=24667786

6. no comment.

6. You're in denial. EHG had some Caucasoid auDNA in them. Hey, they found Caucasoid hg. J in ancient Karelia. Maybe that is what made difference between ancient EHG and ancient Eskimos. Ancient EHG had some Caucasoid Y-DNA in them, like hg. J and R1a.

7. Once again, West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198. Sintashta has NONE, ZERO. R1a in Sintashta is very NEW and modern. R1a-Z93 in Sintashta came from the Iranian Plateau, maybe even before Sintashta ever existed. R1a-M198 and even R1a-Z93 are MUCH, MUCH older than Sintashta or something. Even BMAC is older, lol

once again read this academic papepr again : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=2466778

Goga
14-10-15, 15:54
double post

Goga
14-10-15, 15:57
Hahaha, you're in the corner now, right? You don't have any answers to my questions about R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93.

Please, do only react if you have something useful to say about R1a-M198, otherwise I don't have time for you and talk about your nonsense. Please, stop turning around! Corded Ware R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) was only ancestral to Northern Europe.


Once against its all about the archaic R1a-M198 which was the ancestral to R1a-Z93. You don't have any explannation why West Asia is full of R1a-M198 while northern Eurasia is NOT.


The FACT that West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198, ancestral to Z93, while all other regions in the world are NOT, makes my argument much more stronger than your delusional fantasies about Corded Ware, Sintashta and only GOD knows what ....

Fire Haired14
14-10-15, 15:59
@Goga,

EHG isn't East Asian just like MA1 wasn't East Asian. EHG had a little East Asian ancestry. The relation EHG and MA1 have to Native Americans and Siberians is through Amerindians/Siberians having EHG/MA1-related ancestry not EHG/MA1 having East Asian ancestry.

Goga
14-10-15, 16:04
@Goga,

EHG isn't East Asian just like MA1 wasn't East Asian. EHG had a little East Asian ancestry. The relation EHG and MA1 have to Native Americans and Siberians is through Amerindians/Siberians having EHG/MA1-related ancestry not EHG/MA1 having East Asian ancestry.
No, EHG and Eskimos/Amerindians/Siberians have common Mongoloid ancestors. The difference is that EHG have some Caucasoid auDNA in them, from as we know folks like hg. J or I. Y-DNA haplogoups IJ*, I*, J* are Caucasoid. So that's where EHG got it's Caucasoid auDNA from. Otherwise EHG would be still like original Saami, Eskimo etc. folks..

Tomenable
14-10-15, 17:04
R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93

What ??!!

M198 is not the ancestor of Z93. The direct ancestor of Z93 is Z645.

Z645 is also the common ancestor of both Z283 and Z93.

And M198 / M417 is the common direct ancestor of Z645 and L664:

See here: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M198/

And also:

http://s3.postimg.org/enwaqzgxv/Tree_for_Goga.png

http://s3.postimg.org/enwaqzgxv/Tree_for_Goga.png

Tomenable
14-10-15, 17:34
2. Wrong AGAIN! Corded Ware was R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP)

Goga, we have 12 samples of R1a from Corded Ware Culture (including local branches of CWC called Battle Axe and Strzyżów), as well as 2 more samples of R1a from Zhizhitskaya culture which most likely penetrated into that culture from CWC or from GAC (read here on page 185 about CWC-Zhizhitskaya interactions), and we also have at least 6 samples of R1a from cultures descended from Corded Ware in Europe.

So in total 20 samples. And only one of them was CTS4385. The remaining 19 were all different - and also not the same subclade, but several distinct subclades.

So you are posting some incredible and false generalizations.

==========================

BTW - hereis the list of archaeological cultures in which R1a has been found sofar (as of 10 October 2015, and to my knowledge):(culture- number of samples with R1a)


a)Hunter-gatherers:


EHG(Russia) - 2


b)Ancient cultures:


Non-steppeEurope:


CordedWare culture - 7
BattleAxe / Nordic Bronze - 3
Strzyżówculture*, nearHrubieszów (http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2009BAR_Int_Ser1964_Dolukhanov_etal.pdf) - 2
Zhizhitskayaculture** - 2
Dnepr-Dwina-Kultur (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr-Dwina-Kultur),site Anashkino*** - 1
Urnfieldculture - 3
Uneticeculture, inWielkopolska (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland)****- 1
LateBronze, Sudovia (site Turlojiske) - 1


*Strzyżówculture is a name for a local branch of Corded Ware (as is Battle Axein case of Scandinavian branch of Corded Ware).
**Accordingto Dolukhanov, "The East European Plain on the Eve ofAgriculture", Zhizhitskaya culture was influenced by Corded Wareculture or / and by Globular Amphora culture, and Corded/Globularpopulation migrated to Zhizhitskaya territory, mixing with the locals(see the link):


Dolukhanov,"The East European Plain on the Eve of Agriculture" (page185 for info on Zhizhitskaya-CW/GAC interactions) (http://www.mas.ncl.ac.uk/~nas13/AS/2009BAR_Int_Ser1964_Dolukhanov_etal.pdf)


***EarlyIron Age hillfort of Anashkino, situated on Zhizhitskoe Lake,Kunyinsky District, Pskov Oblast, near Belarusian border - see:


[url]http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/research/archaeology-and-expeditions/expedition/korotevich/?lng=en


****Uneticesample from Poland, comes from ŁękiMałe kurgans, where population of nearby Bruszczewo buried theirdead - see:


1)IwonaHildebrandt-Radke, "Kurgan Cemetery in Leki Male - UniqueNecropolis of Unetice Culture" (English abstract) (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wNn0mqe4HccJ:yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.baztech-article-BUJ5-0052-0032/c/hildebrandt_Cmentarzysko_kurhanowe.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pl)
2)MateuszJaeger, "KościanGroup of Unetice Culture and Fortified Settlement in Bruszczewo"(all text in English) (https://www.academia.edu/14538955/Kościan_Group_of_Únetice_Culture_and_Fortified_S ettlement_in_Bruszczewo._Their_Role_in_Micro-_and_Macro-regional_Exchange)


ConcerningBruszczewo, check also (in English):


http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/en/projects/early-bronze-fortified-settlement-in-bruszczewo-research-1964-1968/
https://www.ufg.uni-kiel.de/en/research/projects/bruszczewo-bronze-age-in-the-greater-polish-settlement-cluster-of-koscian-dfg


Steppesand Asia:


Khvalynskculture* - 1
Poltavkaculture - 1
Potapovkaculture - 1
Srubnaculture - 6
Sintashtaculture - 2
Andronovoculture - 3
Mezhovskayaculture - 1
Karasukculture - 2
Scythiansof the Altai - 4
Scythians,Volga steppe (Nadezhdinka) - 1
Scythians,Azov steppe (Tanais kurgans) - 1
LateBronze, Afontova Gora (near Lake Baikal) - 1
Tagarculture - 6
Pazyrykculture - 1
IronAge, site Sabinka II (in Altai Krai) - 1
Tashtykculture - 1
XiaoheTomb complex (near Lop Nur) - 11
Xiongnuelite burial - 1
Alans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans),kurgans near Krasnyy Kurgan - 1


*DavidAnthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIEorigins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:


https://books.google.pl/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Khvalynsk+culture&source=bl&ots=2Z6-uUNLJz&sig=0-7K_jhoe4n7lfogNglzOukIIyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCGoVChMIo83i8cPAyAIVBV0UCh3WUgda#v=on epage&q=Khvalynsk%20culture&f=false


c)Early Medieval cultures:


Saltovo-Mayakiculture, site Salovka - 1
Slavicburials, Usedom Island - 1

Goga
14-10-15, 17:34
What ??!!

M198 is not the ancestor of Z93. The direct ancestor of Z93 is Z645.

Z645 is also the common ancestor of both Z283 and Z93.

And M198 / M417 is the common direct ancestor of Z645 and L664:

See here: http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M198/

And also:

http://s3.postimg.org/enwaqzgxv/Tree_for_Goga.png

http://s3.postimg.org/enwaqzgxv/Tree_for_Goga.pngOk thanks, thumbs up!

So according to this tree M198 is the same as M17 ??

I (thought and still) think that M198 was much younger than M17.
Same age as M417. But that's not really a big issue.

And that Z645 is new to me. I think they artificially created this because of Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385. Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385 was neither ancestral to East Euro Z283 nor to West Asian Z93. Corded was just a distant cousin of Z283 and Z93. Nothing to do with Z93 in Central Asia. So you can see that that theory is bogus, that Cored Ware never migrated into the East. Thats plain WRONG! Corded Ware was a different branch of R1a.

There was no migration from West to East into the Steppes !!!

In West Asia you can find ALL the ancestral haplogroups of R1a-Z93. M198, M417 etc.. It's obvious that Z93 was born in West Asia. R1a-M198 is native to West Asia. Corded Ware R1a-CTS4385 is a descendant of M198. That makes Corded Ware also derived from West Asia. Archaic and basal R1a-M198 is West Asian.

It's possible that R1a-CTS4385 migrated together with R1b from Maykop into the Yamnaya, and indirectly into Corded Ware, while East European Z283 migrated into Eastern European Steppes from the Iranian Plateau through Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan.

Tomenable
14-10-15, 17:38
Goga, we have ca. 20 samples of R1a from Corded Ware and related or descended cultures.

And only 1 of those 20 was CTS4385. The remaining 19 belong to various different clades.

I have posted a long response but it is awaiting moderator's approval so you can't see it yet.

Goga
14-10-15, 17:45
Goga, we have ca. 20 samples of R1a from Corded Ware and related or descended cultures.

And only 1 of those 20 was CTS4385. The remaining 19 belong to various different clades.

I have posted a long response but it is awaiting moderator's approval so you can't see it yet.Thanks, but I'm familiar with the R1a samples of Corded Ware and they have no direct links with Z93. And there is no basal/archaic M198 there.


The fact still is that R1a-M198 has evolved and is native to West Asia. West Asia (population) is full of ancient R1a-M198, while there is almost nothing in other places outside West Asia. If you don't believe me, here is the most recent academic paper/study about this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=2466778


In Corded Ware were not only R1a samples found, but also R1b samples which connect Corded Ware directly to Yamnaya, Maykop and therefore to West Asia. I believe that Corded Ware was Indo-Europized by R1b folks from Yamnaya.

skaheen15
14-10-15, 22:24
Hahaha, you're in the corner now, right? You don't have any answers to my questions about R1a-M198, the ancestor of Z93.

Please, do only react if you have something useful to say about R1a-M198, otherwise I don't have time for you and talk about your nonsense. Please, stop turning around! Corded Ware R1a1a1a* (CTS4385 SNP) was only ancestral to Northern Europe.


Once against its all about the archaic R1a-M198 which was the ancestral to R1a-Z93. You don't have any explannation why West Asia is full of R1a-M198 while northern Eurasia is NOT.


The FACT that West Asia is full of basal R1a-M198, ancestral to Z93, while all other regions in the world are NOT, makes my argument much more stronger than your delusional fantasies about Corded Ware, Sintashta and only GOD knows what ....

It really is like arguing with a creationist or something like that.

Oh, great paper, by the way. This was the best part:

"We caution against ascribing findings from a contemporary phylogenetic cluster of a single genetic locus to a particular pre-historic demographic event, population migration, or cultural transformation. The R1a TMRCA estimates we report have wide confidence intervals and should be viewed as preliminary..."

It's a fact!

But seriously, you need help. Hopefully, when the meds begin to take effect, you will stop pretending that Corded Ware R1a isn't ancestral to indo-Iranian R1a, and at that point you'll be able to embrace your northwestern roots. You need to come to terms with your own ancestry, it's tearing you up inside.

Maybe when you've recovered you'll actually read the paper that this thread is dedicated to. If you do, you'll see that Khvalynsk, which, again, had R1a and R1b, is ancestral to Yamnaya, and that there was actually a lot of western migration to the steppe in the bronze age. Once again, Sintashta was full of WHG and EEF, Srubnaya has even more EEF. These are all facts.
So, it's not a matter of opinion. It dosen't matter how you or anyone else FEELS about it, it just is. Is that really so hard to grasp? If so, you need a new hobby in addition to psychological help.

Goga
14-10-15, 23:16
It really is like arguing with a creationist or something like that.

Oh, great paper, by the way. This was the best part:

"We caution against ascribing findings from a contemporary phylogenetic cluster of a single genetic locus to a particular pre-historic demographic event, population migration, or cultural transformation. The R1a TMRCA estimates we report have wide confidence intervals and should be viewed as preliminary..."

It's a fact!

But seriously, you need help. Hopefully, when the meds begin to take effect, you will stop pretending that Corded Ware R1a isn't ancestral to indo-Iranian R1a, and at that point you'll be able to embrace your northwestern roots. You need to come to terms with your own ancestry, it's tearing you up inside.

Maybe when you've recovered you'll actually read the paper that this thread is dedicated to. If you do, you'll see that Khvalynsk, which, again, had R1a and R1b, is ancestral to Yamnaya, and that there was actually a lot of western migration to the steppe in the bronze age. Once again, Sintashta was full of WHG and EEF, Srubnaya has even more EEF. These are all facts.
So, it's not a matter of opinion. It dosen't matter how you or anyone else FEELS about it, it just is. Is that really so hard to grasp? If so, you need a new hobby in addition to psychological help.
LMAO, I guess that you encountered someone who is smarter than you and whom you can't manipulate with you ridiculous arguments. But then again that would not be really difficult, since your intellectual level is not higher than that of those who live in the trailer parks with swastikas on their bodies.

Once again, it s all about R1a-M198. Never forget that!

The one who claims that CTS4385 from Corded Ware is ancestral to Iranid R1a-Z93, Z94, Z95 (that doesn't even make sense chronologically & evolutionary) and is in denial that Maykop was ancestral to Yamnaya (after they found R1b & Gedrosia auDNA in Yamnya) needs definitely a reality check. The one who is in denial is the biggest loser here. I know enough about you, lol.


From now on I'm going to try to ignore you, because you have nothing useful to contribute to my knowledge. And you're spreading nothing but nonsense. Sorry for bothering you and taking your time, goodbye.

holderlin
15-10-15, 07:11
The only thing I want is a free Kurdistan right NOW.

The first time you posted this is all I saw.

holderlin
15-10-15, 08:02
I got one for you guys

It just occurred to me that we see teal long before any evidence of artifacts originating in the Caucuses. All the copper in Khavalynsk is still coming from the Balkans. I know this will be dismissed, but artifacts from the Balkans were obvious for thousands of years, then in Yamnaya (and Lower Mikhaylovka too I think) it's obvious that artifacts are originating in the Caucuses. So teal without Caucuses should really be considered.

At the very least this suggests that teal was in steppe populations before meaningful contact with the Caucuses. Assuming balkans as a source of teal is ruled out, this is in support of a (half)circum-caspian dynamic. Unless teal was in Samara since Samara Culture/EHG and we just haven't found it yet.

skaheen15
15-10-15, 09:34
I got one for you guys

It just occurred to me that we see teal long before any evidence of artifacts originating in the Caucuses. All the copper in Khavalynsk is still coming from the Balkans. I know this will be dismissed, but artifacts from the Balkans were obvious for thousands of years, then in Yamnaya (and Lower Mikhaylovka too I think) it's obvious that artifacts are originating in the Caucuses. So teal without Caucuses should be really be considered.

At the very least this suggests that teal was in steppe populations before meaningful contact with the Caucuses. Assuming balkans as a source of teal is ruled out, this is in support of a (half)circum-caspian dynamic. Unless teal was in Samara since Samara Culture/EHG and we just haven't found it yet.

Now that's thinkin' outside the box ;D

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I think it's doubtful, and here's why.

Vinča (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture) were the original Balkan copper kings(they were making copper foil around 5000 BCE, for christ's sake), and they were at their peak right around the time Khvalynsk popped up, I think. At any rate, the two cultures existed at more or less the same time. So you gotta figure that they would have been a key source of that copper, in your scenario, if not the source.

We have Vinča genomes now, and, they're an almost exact 50/50 blend of very non-"teal" Anatolian style EEF and classic Loschbour type WHG. Their sphere of activity was pretty large, almost all of modern Serbia, plus bits of other former Yugoslav republics, and I think a good chunk of Romania. They must have been a big economic powerhouse in their day, so, with all that in mind, plus that Starčevo DNA which is almost 100% EEF, I think it's a safe bet for the time being that the neolithic Balkans wasn't a "teal" place. The caucuses are a natural enough highway between the steppe and the near east, I don't think that we need to have a specific candidate culture in mind for it to have been the most likely route for "teal" to have taken into the steppe.

Or I could be totally wrong.
Either way, it's a neat idea.

Maybe our reptilian overlords seeded the Samara area with "teal", just to mess with the ancient DNA hobbyists they knew would exist in the future. They do know everything, after all.
o_o

holderlin
15-10-15, 18:47
Now that's thinkin' outside the box ;D

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I think it's doubtful, and here's why.

Vinča (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture) were the original Balkan copper kings(they were making copper foil around 5000 BCE, for christ's sake), and they were at their peak right around the time Khvalynsk popped up, I think. At any rate, the two cultures existed at more or less the same time. So you gotta figure that they would have been a key source of that copper, in your scenario, if not the source.

We have Vinča genomes now, and, they're an almost exact 50/50 blend of very non-"teal" Anatolian style EEF and classic Loschbour type WHG. Their sphere of activity was pretty large, almost all of modern Serbia, plus bits of other former Yugoslav republics, and I think a good chunk of Romania. They must have been a big economic powerhouse in their day, so, with all that in mind, plus that Starčevo DNA which is almost 100% EEF, I think it's a safe bet for the time being that the neolithic Balkans wasn't a "teal" place. The caucuses are a natural enough highway between the steppe and the near east, I don't think that we need to have a specific candidate culture in mind for it to have been the most likely route for "teal" to have taken into the steppe.

Or I could be totally wrong.
Either way, it's a neat idea.

Maybe our reptilian overlords seeded the Samara area with "teal", just to mess with the ancient DNA hobbyists they knew would exist in the future. They do know everything, after all.
o_o

Reptoid admixture is inter-dimensional so teal t*rolling is possible.

I mean MA1 has a big chunk of teal and we've only thus far see ancient ANE on the steppe, so it would make sense if teal is more local to the steppe than we're thinking.

I know we have high teal modern populations with recent admixture which implies a nearly all or all teal ancestor, and these modern populations are in areas that fit with the Iranian plateau theory of teal origins, but it looks like this was probably happening before the emphatic collision that we see between the steppe and the caucuses at later mikhaylovka/Yamnaya dates.

I'm not too familiar with the geography of the Caucuses. I had thought of it more as a barrier than a corridor, which would push steppe around the East side of the Caspian if making seasonal Southern trips. Is there an obvious corridor through the Caucuses that doesn't require any movement through higher elevation passes? It's super rugged even along the Seas with a ton of drainage rivers to cross, especially along the Black Sea. It would be much easier to cross an arid patch with known water sources along the way.

bicicleur
15-10-15, 19:42
does the Khvalynsk population have the teal?
if so, maybe it is brought by Q1a?

epoch
15-10-15, 21:46
I don't want anything. The only thing I want is a free Kurdistan right NOW.

If you develop patience you will get that. Or maybe your children. But things are moving that way.

Now back to the Indo-Europeans.


I think that proto-Iranid folks, my direct ancestors, were fully Caucasoid and has NOTHING to do with EHG. It doesn't make any sense if they were party Mongoloid/EHG

EHG weren't mongoloid. They were part of a race that extended from La Brana to Mal'ta. They contributed to Indians, American Indians, possibly West-Asians, Siberians and Europeans. They caused other races to come into being. But as a race they seized to exist.

holderlin
15-10-15, 21:57
does the Khvalynsk population have the teal?
if so, maybe it is brought by Q1a?

Yes they're all tealed up. In the tables they're called Samara_Eneolithic. The paper says 75%/25% EHG/teal, but that was an "estimate taken as a whole" for a population that was said to be "heterogeneous between EHG and Yamnaya": some look Yamnaya, some look EHG. The physical types in the graves are also a mix of Steppe/EHG and Southern Euro. Wait, OK I see the N=3 in the admixture plot. Only one sample actually has teal (puke green in these plots). Whoa. But they don't say which in the paper, or at least I can't find it. They just talk about this "estimate" of 25/75 wtf. Someone call these people. And what's this chromatic blue component? Not the lighter Anatolian Neolithic blue, but the more chromatic component on the left side of the plot. This looks to actually begin in the Samara_Eneolithic samples. (and of course teal = vomit green in these plots).

Q1a teal vector is possible but with some modern Iranian populations having so much I'd expect more Q1a in these populations as well. And I guess if they just told us which sample had the teal in Khvalynsk that might help.

Remember the teal in Yamnaya isn't just Caucaso-Gedrosian. It has a North Euro component (like in BA Armenian), which might not mean anything other than that ANE carried this component, or, it could again suggest an origin more local to the steppe. Is this what the chromatic blue is supposed to be?

Angela
16-10-15, 02:09
I've speculated whether this "southern" component in the steppe could have come from the farmers to their west, maybe Cucuteni Tripolite spilling over onto the steppe, but everything indicates they had a lot of "ANE", and so far as we know there wasn't any "ANE" there.

I'm sure some samples from the Balkans are in the process of being analyzed, but who knows when they'll be published. (In fact, that's why I think the Mathieson et al paper hints that the population that moved east might have been from further east than Corded Ware. (i.e.a combination of Tripolye plus Yamnaya)

Speaking of Balkan samples, I'm assuming that estimate of 50/50 EEF/WHG for Vinca is pre-publication of the Iain Mathieson paper (and Lazaridis abstract), yes? So, using Stuttgart, how much WHG would be in that sample? Would it be about the same amount as in MN? 25-30% max?

Angela
16-10-15, 02:32
Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe), I really don't understand this post on Dienekes' website in August.

Prehistoric farmers from northern Greece had lactose intolerance, brown eyes, dark skin
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/08/prehistoric-farmers-from-northern.html

Unfortunately I don't understand Greek so I don't know if they explain their reasoning in the video at the link.

It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.

Fire Haired14
16-10-15, 02:47
It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.

That's definitely the case, or at least a low frequency of SLC45A2. With the Polish one, no pigmentation SNPs were tested and they assumed they had Dark skin because lots had mtDNA H:grin:


Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe)

They had the same frequency of both as modern West Asians. The reason for obvious differnence in appearence between Middle Easterns and Europeans is clear to me now: Depigmentation mutations had been thrown around since the Upper Palaeolithic in Eurasia. It wasn't till around 3000 BC they came together and created a package of what we see today. In the Middle East nothing changed since Neolithic. For most part European-phenotype is depigmented version of Middle Eastern combined with WHG/EHG-genes(Skeletal form, some depigmentation). This is actually what some old-anthropologist suggested.

LeBrok
16-10-15, 03:17
I'm not too familiar with the geography of the Caucuses. I had thought of it more as a barrier than a corridor, which would push steppe around the East side of the Caspian if making seasonal Southern trips. Is there an obvious corridor through the Caucuses that doesn't require any movement through higher elevation passes? It's super rugged even along the Seas with a ton of drainage rivers to cross, especially along the Black Sea. It would be much easier to cross an arid patch with known water sources along the way. What about passing around through beaches of Black or Caspian Sea?

Angela
16-10-15, 04:17
That's definitely the case, or at least a low frequency of SLC45A2. With the Polish one, no pigmentation SNPs were tested and they assumed they had Dark skin because lots had mtDNA Hhttp://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/smilies/main/grin.png


They had the same frequency of both as modern West Asians. The reason for obvious differnence in appearence between Middle Easterns and Europeans is clear to me now: Depigmentation mutations had been thrown around since the Upper Palaeolithic in Eurasia. It wasn't till around 3000 BC they came together and created a package of what we see today. In the Middle East nothing changed since Neolithic. For most part European-phenotype is depigmented version of Middle Eastern combined with WHG/EHG-genes(Skeletal form, some depigmentation). This is actually what some old-anthropologist suggested.

Well, unless you can understand Greek, we don't KNOW that's the case, but it's a good bet.:) As for the Polish one, let's hope he's getting tested!

We've been saying forever that it was the combination of the major depigmentation snps that created modern European phenotypes. However, most of the speculation on this site was that even if derived SLC24A5 might have come with the farmers, the SHG and/or EHG must have contributed derived SLC45A2. That's obviously not precisely how it happened, since Anatolian farmers already had derived SLC45A2. Nor, clearly, are the actual steppe people responsible for the increase, since they had the same or less of the derived SLC45A2 snps than the Anatolian farmers. (Sintashta is not on point in my opinion because it's much later and hailed from areas that got more EEF and perhaps more EHG admixture too before they headed east.)

I think a lot of these de-pigmentation snps combined in Central Europe (and in the SHG/EHG) but I still think selection operated on it (as the paper seems to maintain), and that selection may turn out to have something to do with dairy consumption and Vitamin D levels, in my opinion. A full complement of depigmentation snps would not be very helpful in the Arabian desert. As it is they have to keep totally covered.

Social selection might also have come into play once it got started.

I don't think it's necessarily the case that the Near East didn't change in term of pigmentation snps. Palestinians are almost 10% SSA. It can be even higher in Arabia. I think that the diffusion of those genes probably had an impact on the pigmentation of some Near Easterners. That influx may be at least partly rather recent, dating to the Arab slave trade.

Angela
16-10-15, 05:15
There are passes through the mountains. This is called the Cross Pass, I think.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/101809/180956.p.jpg

However, it looks to me as if the easiest passage would be along the west coast of the Caspian Sea.
http://asia.theworldatlas.net/caucasus/caucasus.jpg

It seems a bit odd that south Caucasus farmers would cross the mountains but leave farming behind. It's not as if there weren't river valleys on the steppe where it could be practiced. On the other hand, Mallory has always emphasized that farming on the steppe was very unstable.

I found the following interesting. It's a university site but unfortunately the individual points are not sourced, so take it with a grain of salt, or a lot of salt, as you prefer. :) Anyway, the text (go down to Part II) explains that in certain areas of Turkmenistan the farmers depended more on animal husbandry, and that farming, except at certain oases, was the minor component. With changing climate, some of these people abandoned farming altogether and became herding nomads.
http://www.weavingartmuseum.org/ex3_prehist.htm

I suppose it's possible that people like this might have traveled due north, then through the area of modern Kazakhstan and then onto the steppe, but I don't know of any archaeological support for this. They would have to have arrived before 4500 BC given the autosomal make up we're seeing at that time.

Kristiina
16-10-15, 09:20
According to Eurogenes, most EHG like modern people are Lithuanians, Estonians and Saami (http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2015_08_01_archive.html). So google for these people if you want to get a glimpse of what EHG may have looked like. Here is one possibility: http://mutityts.com/2013/11/04/the-real-estonian-man/

In order to get an idea what ANE people looked like we can look at the people who today share most drift with Ma1: Amerinds, West Greenland, East Greenland; Naukan; Ket; Lithuanians; Western Finns; Russians; Estonians; Mordovians; Chukchi; Finns; Khanty; Maris; Selkup; Koryak; Shors; Orcadian; Ukrainians; Tundra Nenets; CEU; Hungarians; Kalash
Alaskan inuit family: ps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inupiat_Family_from_Noatak,_Alaska,_1929,_Edw ard_S._Curtis_(restored).jpg
Alaskan Inuit woman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo#/media/File:Inuit_Woman_1907_Crisco_edit_2.jpg
Ancient native Greenlander: http://www.talisman.ro/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/greenlander.jpg
Ket man: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Ket_man_1914.jpg
Selkup man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkup_people#/media/File:A_Selkup_man_with_his_dog..jpg

As a comparison photos of Chinese men: https://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1272&bih=722&q=%22a+chinese+man%22&oq=%22a+chinese+man%22&gs_l=img.3..0i19j0i7i30i19j0i8i7i30i19l4j0i30i19l2 j0i5i30i19l2.1342.5980.0.6586.15.9.0.0.0.0.515.132 3.3j1j4-1j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..11.4.1175.xZg-UZzcMYw

In my opinion, high cheekbones are an ANE feature. They may also have had a "triangular face" as that kind of a face is seen in North Eurasia (e.g. inupiat man above) but not for example in China. ANE people may also have had small eyes as they lived in a cold climate. Of course, they also had dark hair.

Yetos
16-10-15, 09:46
Given that the samples in Neolithic Anatolia had both derived SLC24A5 and SLC42A5 (and we then see both show up in Neolithic Europe), I really don't understand this post on Dienekes' website in August.

Prehistoric farmers from northern Greece had lactose intolerance, brown eyes, dark skin
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/08/prehistoric-farmers-from-northern.html

Unfortunately I don't understand Greek so I don't know if they explain their reasoning in the video at the link.

It doesn't really make sense, does it? Unless they just mean that this particular group had derived SLC24A5, but not SLC45A2? The Polish researchers said the same thing about the Bronze Age warrior they were testing.


ok

I had wrote about that before

it is combined with

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/talk-by-christina-papageorgopoulou-on.html


now an effort to translate

<<A very important recent result is the regain of full genes map of 3 pre-historic farmers from N Greece, who lived 7500-5500 years from today.
the data are being analyzed and itr is expected to 'light' the ancestry of modern Europeans,
until today the data have given informations about lactose intolerance, eyes colours and skin colour,

it seems these people had problem with lactose, had brown eyes and one or 2 tones darker skin than today,>>

now the video
generally say the same
but enters on how the work is done, the time needed, and why needed,
interesting are

<< Blue eyes is a mutation that appeared 10 000 years from today but expand very fast due to atractiveness>>
<<the first farmers in Greece were lactose intolearnce, and Greece today has the biggest lactose intolerance in Europe which shows a continuity>>

now many have been said at blogs, news etc etc about that project,
officially is the 3 +1 of the above
pre-historic Greeks farmers at N Greece had
1. lactose intolerance
2. brown eyes
3. a tone or two darker skin
3+1 brown hair. (not mention in the exbition, but admited by most)



PS
unoficially many had been said,
I could write them down if you want,
but many are hoaxes,

but generally and from other works there was abutant mtDNA H,
something that most submit,

as I said before, no nucleotid -V13 has been mention yet,
as you can see in the comments before, no answer to that,
many write in their pages about a certain existance of I1

extraordinary is some say that a R1b has been found, and 1 X22, although there are not offcial pappers to that

here are the speech
http://www.livemedia.gr/video/33052

Angela
16-10-15, 17:04
ok

I had wrote about that before

it is combined with

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/talk-by-christina-papageorgopoulou-on.html


now an effort to translate

<<A very important recent result is the regain of full genes map of 3 pre-historic farmers from N Greece, who lived 7500-5500 years from today.
the data are being analyzed and itr is expected to 'light' the ancestry of modern Europeans,
until today the data have given informations about lactose intolerance, eyes colours and skin colour,

it seems these people had problem with lactose, had brown eyes and one or 2 tones darker skin than today,>>

now the video
generally say the same
but enters on how the work is done, the time needed, and why needed,
interesting are

<< Blue eyes is a mutation that appeared 10 000 years from today but expand very fast due to atractiveness>>
<<the first farmers in Greece were lactose intolearnce, and Greece today has the biggest lactose intolerance in Europe which shows a continuity>>

now many have been said at blogs, news etc etc about that project,
officially is the 3 +1 of the above
pre-historic Greeks farmers at N Greece had
1. lactose intolerance
2. brown eyes
3. a tone or two darker skin
3+1 brown hair. (not mention in the exbition, but admited by most)



PS
unoficially many had been said,
I could write them down if you want,
but many are hoaxes,

but generally and from other works there was abutant mtDNA H,
something that most submit,

as I said before, no nucleotid -V13 has been mention yet,
as you can see in the comments before, no answer to that,
many write in their pages about a certain existance of I1

extraordinary is some say that a R1b has been found, and 1 X22, although there are not offcial pappers to that

here are the speech
http://www.livemedia.gr/video/33052

Thanks for that.

So, our speculations may indeed be correct, and it's just that this particular group lacked the derived snps at SLC42A5, although some of the Anatolian farmers and Central European farmers did have them.

MOESAN
16-10-15, 19:31
@ to skaheen 15
Maybe I mistaked
I never understood Holderlin says 'tewas not coming from Caucasus- he said the cultural Caucasus influences upon Steppes pccurred far after 'teal' was

MOESAN
16-10-15, 19:41
gargle gargle what a mess :to skaheen 15
I begin again
Holderlin is not saying 'teal' come from Balkans nor Caucasus had no influence on Steppes, he says (I believe) 'teal' was in the Steppes before Caucasus cultural influences took over Balkans ones upon the Steppes and maybe we can understand that we have to search for a more eastern origin of it where the western auDNA common among today 'westasian' was not present; perhaps i'm wrong?

MOESAN
16-10-15, 19:53
I suppose 'teal' is a compound of ANE genes and something more southern 'gedrosia-like'; just a bet...

Goga
16-10-15, 21:20
There are passes through the mountains. This is called the Cross Pass, I think.
http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/101809/180956.p.jpg

However, it looks to me as if the easiest passage would be along the west coast of the Caspian Sea.
http://asia.theworldatlas.net/caucasus/caucasus.jpg

Beautiful place. I was born in Georgia and I'm very proud of it. Caucasus I's a very diverse and rich place with many different people and languages in such a small area.

skaheen15
16-10-15, 22:39
gargle gargle what a mess :to skaheen 15
I begin again
Holderlin is not saying 'teal' come from Balkans nor Caucasus had no influence on Steppes, he says (I believe) 'teal' was in the Steppes before Caucasus cultural influences took over Balkans ones upon the Steppes and maybe we can understand that we have to search for a more eastern origin of it where the western auDNA common among today 'westasian' was not present; perhaps i'm wrong?

I took him to be suggesting that either the "teal" came with the copper, or was native to the steppe, and I was addressing the former possibility. I may have gotten him wrong. In any case, the entire subject is pretty complex, many possible twists.

skaheen15
16-10-15, 22:51
I suppose 'teal' is a compound of ANE genes and something more southern 'gedrosia-like'; just a bet...

I think you're probably right.

But the way that it increased, slowly, from 25% to just over 50%, as Khvalynsk slowly morphed into Yamnaya/Afanasievo, makes me think that it was definitely trickling in from somewhere else, rather than just somehow increasing from a "teal" supply that was already there, MA-1 ancestry in those EHGs notwithstanding. Then, again, there's the near eastern mtDNA that increasingly pops up as time goes on. I definitely think that Maykop had something to do with it in the latter stages, although obviously they couldn't have been the original source.

skaheen15
16-10-15, 23:11
I've speculated whether this "southern" component in the steppe could have come from the farmers to their west, maybe Cucuteni Tripolite spilling over onto the steppe, but everything indicates they had a lot of "ANE", and so far as we know there wasn't any "ANE" there.

I'm sure some samples from the Balkans are in the process of being analyzed, but who knows when they'll be published. (In fact, that's why I think the Mathieson et al paper hints that the population that moved east might have been from further east than Corded Ware. (i.e.a combination of Tripolye plus Yamnaya)

Speaking of Balkan samples, I'm assuming that estimate of 50/50 EEF/WHG for Vinca is pre-publication of the Iain Mathieson paper (and Lazaridis abstract), yes? So, using Stuttgart, how much WHG would be in that sample? Would it be about the same amount as in MN? 25-30% max?

Yeah, the information about Vinča was reported at the beginning of the summer, back in June, IIRC.

I'm honestly not sure how different they would look using Stuttgart as a reference, but, the main point I took from everything I read was that everyone was surprised at how much WHG Vinča had, and I haven't seen anything that would contradict that.

Fire Haired14
17-10-15, 00:08
PS
unoficially many had been said,
I could write them down if you want,
but many are hoaxes,

but generally and from other works there was abutant mtDNA H,
something that most submit,

as I said before, no nucleotid -V13 has been mention yet,
as you can see in the comments before, no answer to that,
many write in their pages about a certain existance of I1

extraordinary is some say that a R1b has been found, and 1 X22, although there are not offcial pappers to that

here are the speech
http://www.livemedia.gr/video/33052

A R1b that's a big deal. R1b diversity is so high in West Asia we should expect this in West Asian-derived Neolithic Europeans.

Fire Haired14
17-10-15, 00:11
Speaking of Balkan samples, I'm assuming that estimate of 50/50 EEF/WHG for Vinca is pre-publication of the Iain Mathieson paper (and Lazaridis abstract), yes? So, using Stuttgart, how much WHG would be in that sample? Would it be about the same amount as in MN? 25-30% max?

In July Ancient DNA files were posted online. They posted the file of the Bracin Neolithic girl. One was a Vinca from Serbia. He was of Low coverage but appeared to have very high WHG, like he could have been 50% Loschbour and 50 Stuttgart.

holderlin
17-10-15, 04:21
What about passing around through beaches of Black or Caspian Sea?

Yeah you are flanked by ocean, but much of this isn't beach and these are massive mountains dumping huge drainage into the seas so you have steep mountainous banks or cliffs with a river to cross every so often.

And mountain passes are still mountain passes. High elevation, cold, dangerous etc. I mean a mountain range is about the most obvious kind of barrier to transportation I shouldnt have to explain it.

But we're also talking about the fertile crescent on the other side so I wouldnt rule out motivation.

holderlin
17-10-15, 05:22
gargle gargle what a mess :to skaheen 15
I begin again
Holderlin is not saying 'teal' come from Balkans nor Caucasus had no influence on Steppes, he says (I believe) 'teal' was in the Steppes before Caucasus cultural influences took over Balkans ones upon the Steppes and maybe we can understand that we have to search for a more eastern origin of it where the western auDNA common among today 'westasian' was not present; perhaps i'm wrong?

Yes this is what I'm saying

The difference in the evidence between contact with the balkans vs the caucuses is night and day. These are very rich graves for the setting. ALL of the copper is from the balkans and this isn't just "the copper resembles that found in the balkans," this is irrefutable spectral data of the copper itself. Teal precedes caucuses by at least a thousand years.

Although it also could be that the balkans were manufacturing copper stuff at such a rate that the entire west fell under their trade networks and that the steppe were getting items through the caucuses, but this could be deduced by the evidence for balkan copper in the near east during the same time and I haven't ever read anything about this, nor is it likely given that CT is right down the road. And you wouldnt see just copper, other items would accompany it.

The transition from Samara/Dnieper-Donets->Khvalynsk/Sredny Stog is a eastward impulse given from the fact that SS sites coexist beside DD for a time, whereas S->K is continuous. So there seems to be a cultural push East->West from the Volga. So if Samara was influenced in it's development it's from the East, which supports what I'm getting at. Also, this implies a separation between DD/SS and S/K with DD/SS being closer to cucuteni-tripolye. So I bet we get some EEF/WHG in SS if not DD.

All this being said teal is all over the Caucuses and among Iranians with no EHG, so this might not change much other than that it was coming around the Caspian from the South East before it was coming directly through the Caucuses. But teal with copper exclusively from the Balkans implies an older genetic relationship, which in most cases requires close proximity.

LeBrok
17-10-15, 07:31
Yeah you are flanked by ocean, but much of this isn't beach and these are massive mountains dumping huge drainage into the seas so you have steep mountainous banks or cliffs with a river to cross every so often.

And mountain passes are still mountain passes. High elevation, cold, dangerous etc. I mean a mountain range is about the most obvious kind of barrier to transportation I shouldnt have to explain it.

But we're also talking about the fertile crescent on the other side so I wouldnt rule out motivation.
40 kya people knew how to get to Australia hopping from island to island on some primitive boats or rafts. Somehow 30 ky later they had a problem getting around or across Caspian or Black Sea? Mind you that before Mediterranean flooded into Black Sea it used to be much smaller. The biggest obstacles to cross to the other side were not the mountains but secluded tribes/villages in valleys blocking the easy passage.
During Ice Age the Black and Caspian were most likely frozen solid in winter, making it even easier to pass for hunter gatherers.

holderlin
17-10-15, 07:55
40 kya people knew how to get to Australia hopping from island to island on some primitive boats or rafts. Somehow 30 ky later they had a problem getting around or across Caspian or Black Sea? Mind you that before Mediterranean flooded into Black Sea it used to be much smaller. The biggest obstacles to cross to the other side were not the mountains but secluded tribes/villages in valleys blocking the easy passage.
During Ice Age the Black and Caspian were most likely frozen solid in winter, making it even easier to pass for hunter gatherers.

Yeah I get that. But we're talking about what would have needed to be a constant exchange much like a seasonal migration pattern. Not Home Erectus's range.

This probably had everything to do with horse transport. Some people here seem to
equivocate the precise nature of the evidence for domestic horses in this region but Sredny stog were almost certainly horse riders and if they were so were khvalinsk. And this is right when we see this teal appear. Look at how genetically tight the vast Yamnaya and related horizons are. You couldn't do this without horses.

bicicleur
17-10-15, 09:00
40 kya people knew how to get to Australia hopping from island to island on some primitive boats or rafts. Somehow 30 ky later they had a problem getting around or across Caspian or Black Sea? Mind you that before Mediterranean flooded into Black Sea it used to be much smaller. The biggest obstacles to cross to the other side were not the mountains but secluded tribes/villages in valleys blocking the easy passage.
During Ice Age the Black and Caspian were most likely frozen solid in winter, making it even easier to pass for hunter gatherers.

there is 1 easy pass through the center of the Caucasus, probably used by Maykop people
you can also easily cross along the Caspian Sea coast
Black Sea coast is unpracticable, but maybe was 10 ka when sea levels were lower
and then possibility by sea but no proof of that 8-9 ka and also not practical for transport of cattle or similar goods with primitive rafts

MOESAN
17-10-15, 15:01
staying on auDNA, I 'll try to precise my uncertain thoughts:
the today ANE found in Anatolia-N-E-Sth-Caucasus, SC Asia could have been taken from more northern Steppes around Bronze Age, whatever the mode (without speak of the consequences upon later nomad populations after change in language and culture, as Turcs and others): pacific gradual osmosis or new rulers ? (depends on prejudices or theories); I know comparing poolings of ancient DNA to other poolings in modern population, and with different depth of "definition", is full of traps; but I believe the "gedrosia" of MA1 by instance is an ANE bearer group of genes which reached later the CS-Asia, meating there the genuine 'gedrosia', partly ANI bearer in fact (an 'harappa'like population but almost without the western 'caucasus' at these times in the source population);
'west-asian' is born by admixture of 'caucasus* and 'total gedrosia'**
*:'caucasus' = i see as a kind of "northest-Near-East': Zagros? -
**: 'total gedrosia': a bit of "northern gedrosia ANE bearer" and a lot of "genuine southern gedrosia" ANI rich enough? -
'teal' could combine the 2 kinds of 'gedrosia' with more ANE and less ANI, and be the result of some contacts between partly Harappa populations with more Steppic ones;
Some surveys about Caucasus uses a 'Indus-Harappa' pooling of their own and "detected" it at non negictible % among modern Caucasus populations and modern Armenians and not only among modern Iranians.
East the Caspian, in BMAC, some interactions were found in the piemonts between sedented populations and steppic nomads, where North Mesopotamia but also Harappa Culture influences were visible; I know artefacts are not genes but it 's a first step;
by the way, the Harappa population was very high, 1m76 statured, even if less robust than the mean of Steppic people (HGs influence?) and showed the famous 'irano(indo)-afghan' complex of traits - whatever a type or a combination - which can be detected at some level among 'corded' people and steppic nomads;
&: stature is in the same time result of genetic heritage and environment-way of life, and the politic-social organization can select genes (polygamy, males challenging, warlike society...unstabel, but we cannot discard immediatly some possible links.
Concerning Haplos, I think Y-R1 (a+b) of Steppes were rich of ANE at these times, and more in detail Y-R1b were more southernly centered and had more of the northern 'gedrosia' part than Y-R1a had as a whole; the 'gedrosia' in Corded could have been taken from reviously rich in R1b population... it could explain the low 'gdrosia' among balts and Slavs of today???
I did not wait for R1b in Western Anatolia at Neolithic time; I don't know the detailed genealogic tree of Y-I, but I* separated from J* in the surroundings, so I'm not so astonished to see a peculiar kind of y-I there, well apart from the other Y-I (I1/I2 other)... what amzed me is the relatively low level of Y-G2: I was waiting more...

LeBrok
17-10-15, 16:29
Yeah I get that. But we're talking about what would have needed to be a constant exchange much like a seasonal migration pattern. Not Home Erectus's range.

This probably had everything to do with horse transport. Some people here seem to
equivocate the precise nature of the evidence for domestic horses in this region but Sredny stog were almost certainly horse riders and if they were so were khvalinsk. And this is right when we see this teal appear. Look at how genetically tight the vast Yamnaya and related horizons are. You couldn't do this without horses.
Horses just make the trip easier. One can ride around Caspian, in few days.

holderlin
17-10-15, 17:22
Horses just make the trip easier. One can ride around Caspian, in few days.

Yep, which is what I think teal a result of. It appears with horse riding.

There's just no Caucuses when teal appears. Not for a 1000 years or more. Not saying you can't make it through, I'm just conforming a model to this evidence where I make a reasonable supposition that a giant friggin mountain range was more of a barrier than a corridor.

Angela
17-10-15, 17:42
In July Ancient DNA files were posted online. They posted the file of the Bracin Neolithic girl. One was a Vinca from Serbia. He was of Low coverage but appeared to have very high WHG, like he could have been 50% Loschbour and 50 Stuttgart.

I know, Fire-Haired, but was that analysis made by a straight out comparison between Stuttgart, Loschbour and this sample, or was the WHG/EEF ratio produced by the Eurogenes calculator. The results might be very different.

Sorry to be such a pain in the you know what but precision is important if we're going to be drawing inferences from a sample.

Engel
17-10-15, 18:21
Are you aware of any world maps from 40kya, available on internet?

holderlin
17-10-15, 18:47
I suppose 'teal' is a compound of ANE genes and something more southern 'gedrosia-like'; just a bet...

Rather "Caucaso-Gedrosia"/"teal" is a component of "ANE" just like "WHG". It's just a Eurasian group of alleles. Certain alleles were concentrated in different populations as they diverged and of course mixed.

holderlin
17-10-15, 19:13
staying on auDNA, I 'll try to precise my uncertain thoughts:
the today ANE found in Anatolia-N-E-Sth-Caucasus, SC Asia could have been taken from more northern Steppes around Bronze Age, whatever the mode (without speak of the consequences upon later nomad populations after change in language and culture, as Turcs and others): pacific gradual osmosis or new rulers ? (depends on prejudices or theories); I know comparing poolings of ancient DNA to other poolings in modern population, and with different depth of "definition", is full of traps; but I believe the "gedrosia" of MA1 by instance is an ANE bearer group of genes which reached later the CS-Asia, meating there the genuine 'gedrosia', partly ANI bearer in fact (an 'harappa'like population but almost without the western 'caucasus' at these times in the source population);
'west-asian' is born by admixture of 'caucasus* and 'total gedrosia'**
*:'caucasus' = i see as a kind of "northest-Near-East': Zagros? -
**: 'total gedrosia': a bit of "northern gedrosia ANE bearer" and a lot of "genuine southern gedrosia" ANI rich enough? -
'teal' could combine the 2 kinds of 'gedrosia' with more ANE and less ANI, and be the result of some contacts between partly Harappa populations with more Steppic ones;
Some surveys about Caucasus uses a 'Indus-Harappa' pooling of their own and "detected" it at non negictible % among modern Caucasus populations and modern Armenians and not only among modern Iranians.
East the Caspian, in BMAC, some interactions were found in the piemonts between sedented populations and steppic nomads, where North Mesopotamia but also Harappa Culture influences were visible; I know artefacts are not genes but it 's a first step;
by the way, the Harappa population was very high, 1m76 statured, even if less robust than the mean of Steppic people (HGs influence?) and showed the famous 'irano(indo)-afghan' complex of traits - whatever a type or a combination - which can be detected at some level among 'corded' people and steppic nomads;
&: stature is in the same time result of genetic heritage and environment-way of life, and the politic-social organization can select genes (polygamy, males challenging, warlike society...unstabel, but we cannot discard immediatly some possible links.
Concerning Haplos, I think Y-R1 (a+b) of Steppes were rich of ANE at these times, and more in detail Y-R1b were more southernly centered and had more of the northern 'gedrosia' part than Y-R1a had as a whole; the 'gedrosia' in Corded could have been taken from reviously rich in R1b population... it could explain the low 'gdrosia' among balts and Slavs of today???
I did not wait for R1b in Western Anatolia at Neolithic time; I don't know the detailed genealogic tree of Y-I, but I* separated from J* in the surroundings, so I'm not so astonished to see a peculiar kind of y-I there, well apart from the other Y-I (I1/I2 other)... what amzed me is the relatively low level of Y-G2: I was waiting more...

I like the Harappan theory, but proto-Harappan in 5000BC isnt quite The Harappan attraction of 3000-2000BC. It was however the first and largest farming center of South Asia at the time. But of course we don't see steppe contact until the Vedic period.

Sile
17-10-15, 19:26
@maciano or krefter

Do you know anything more about the other T1a ( ydna) found in ancient central Germany from this latest paper



I0795
KAR6
Tooth

5216-5036 calBCE

Karsdorf
Germany
H1 or H1au1b
T1a
CTS6004




I0797
KAR16A
Tooth
5500-4775 BCE
Karsdorf
Germany
H46b
T1a
M70



I0795 was the haak finds, and its mtdna was initially H1bz ( which was also in the brotherton 2013 paper ) , it now just H1 or H1au1b

the new T1a found is KAR16A, that the one I need information on

MOESAN
17-10-15, 23:43
I like the Harappan theory, but proto-Harappan in 5000BC isnt quite The Harappan attraction of 3000-2000BC. It was however the first and largest farming center of South Asia at the time. But of course we don't see steppe contact until the Vedic period.


OK about differences of timing - but some 'harappa' genetic remnants could have survived among the BMAC cultures until more recently.

Sile
18-10-15, 00:57
interesting analysis from another forum

As long as the people with Early European Farmer type genetic began their migration that culminated in sub-Saharan Africa before the influx of Steppe-like people into Europe, this doesn't pose a paradox. As summarized in a blockbuster paper (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433) earlier this year:

By ~6,000-5,000 years ago, a resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry had occurred throughout much of Europe, but in Russia, the Yamnaya steppe herders of this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European hunter-gatherers, but from a population of Near Eastern ancestry. Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least ~3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans.
Allowing at least 500-1,500 years for a group of Early European Farmer-like people to migrate from Western Anatolia to Ethiopia before the resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry or the steppe ancestry had changed the European gene pool is not an unreasonable scenario. This trip involves a march of about 1200 miles more or less due South (although, obvious, the route would not be as the crow flies).

This is comparable to the time needed for Early European farmers to advance that far (i.e. to the Northern coast of Continental Europe and Southern Scandinavia) and with that much of a change in latitude in Europe during the first wave of the Neolithic revolution in Europe.

The time depth and distribution of Y-DNA T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184)(which is present at relatively high levels on Omotic and Cushitic populations relative to Ethio-Semitic populations) suggests that this may have been an important Y-DNA haplogroup of the EEF-like Neolithic farmers whose autosomal DNA contributed to Africa's gene pool via the Levant, possibly with Y-DNA J mixed in (although the multiple possible historical events that could have spread Y-DNA J complicate the analysis). But, Y-DNA T is too young to be a plausible candidate accompanying the spread of mtDNA M1 (as has been suggested by some) and U6 in their migrations back from Eurasia ca. 30,000 years ago, and is a poor fit to mtDNA clades that probably arrived in Africa via Iberia and then spread across North Africa to East Africa.

Y-DNA F* is basically absent from Africa, and Y-DNA I, while old enough, has a distribution that is to thin and patchy to be a very strong candidate for a companion to mtDNA M1 and U6.

Y-DNA J has about the right geographic spread in Africa to match mtDNA M1 and U6 as part of the same back migration, but it is hard to know how much of Y-DNA J is due to Semitic migration to Africa (Ethio-Semitic and Phoenician first, and then Arab later) in the last 4,000 years, how much is due to earlier Neolithic and Paleolithic migrations. Another possibility is that a Y-DNA E population migrated to Iberia early in the Upper Paleolithic era (where it left genetic traces) and then back migrated to NW Africa ca. 30,000 years ago with mtDNA M1 and U6 women from Europe.

Goga
18-10-15, 23:47
EHG weren't mongoloid. They were part of a race that extended from La Brana to Mal'ta. They contributed to Indians, American Indians, possibly West-Asians, Siberians and Europeans. They caused other races to come into being. But as a race they seized to exist.According to the most recent paper EHG was 57% Caucasoid and 43% Mongoloid (Eastern Siberian). So I made a little mistake, because I thought that EHG was more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. But, personally I do still believe that EHG was more Mongoloid, but I don't have time to explain why.


http://s24.postimg.org/gxu6b629h/Untitled.jpg

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only

Tomenable
19-10-15, 16:09
Goga - this map shows, that modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are 43% Eastern Siberian, not that EHG was such.

EHG was without Eastern Siberian ancestry, but modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are a mix of EHG + Eastern Siberian.

An ineresting thing is that - if we believe this map - mixing between ANE and East Asians which produced Native Americans took place in Eurasia. Actually, I imagined that ANE and East Asians migrated to America separately, and mixed only in America, not before getting there.

Goga
19-10-15, 17:51
@ Tomenable

No as you can see EHG is from that area and was evolved / was born from mixing between Red and Green.

Angela
19-10-15, 19:05
Guys, please take this discussion to the thread on the paper. It's off topic here.

holderlin
19-10-15, 23:13
OK about differences of timing - but some 'harappa' genetic remnants could have survived among the BMAC cultures until more recently.

Gotchya. I would agree that contact with early BMAC settlements is a plausible genetic source. There's a bunch of loanwords in Indo-Iranian, Aryan, and even Tocharian that are presumed to have come from BMAC people. Andronovo was of course much later, but the fact that they're also found in Tocharian lends some credence.

Of course we have to ignore the lack of evidence for steppe before 2000BC, as with most of these theories. I can imagine a greater and greater seasonal range as horses become more and more utilized, which at first appears as allele flow before we see any artifacts. It's possible. And this constant relflux would really be the very beginnings of expansions. The Anatolian/Tocharian languages are so archaic that it makes sense to say that these very early branches may have been a result of this very early seasonal movement where at some point a group stays behind for good. Hittite is extremely archaic, so much that it even confounds the recreation of PIE, and so a very early divergence could be explained by such a process.

Alan
20-10-15, 00:15
Goga - this map shows, that modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are 43% Eastern Siberian, not that EHG was such.

EHG was without Eastern Siberian ancestry, but modern Mansi, Khanty and Nenets are a mix of EHG + Eastern Siberian.

An ineresting thing is that - if we believe this map - mixing between ANE and East Asians which produced Native Americans took place in Eurasia. Actually, I imagined that ANE and East Asians migrated to America separately, and mixed only in America, not before getting there.

Thats what I believe also. The map above is just a hypothesis and I don't think native Americans formed Eurasia but are the product of two seperate migrations, one ANE like and later one modern East Eurasian like.

arvistro
20-10-15, 07:05
Is ANE/East Asian ratio in Native Ams geographical?
I mean are South Ams significantly more ANE and less East Asian than North Ams?