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View Full Version : Volga Steppe Khvalynsk culture (Copper Age) from 5200-4000 BC, R1a and R1b together!



Tomenable
11-10-15, 13:42
So far R1b and R1b used to be found separately in samples from distinct IE archaeological cultures!

But finally we have evidence of coexistence - from the updated version of March 2015 paper (posted on 10 October 2015):

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477.abstract?%3Fcollection=

Page 35 out of 46, ~7000-6000 years old R1a and R1b men from Khvalynsk Eneolithic in the Volga steppes (near Saratovo):

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf

"Khvalynsk Eneolithic in the Volga steppes: Saratovo, Russia (n=3)
Three individuals described here were among 39 excavated in 1987-88 at the Eneolithic
cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River, 6 km
north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe. Together with high 15N in
the human bones from Khvalynsk, which might have caused a reservoir effect making 14C
dates too old, the circulation of so much copper, which increased in SE Europe after 4700
BCE, suggests that a date after 4700 BCE would be reasonable for many graves at
Khvalynsk. Copper was found in 13 adult male graves, 8 adult female graves, and 4 sub-adult
graves. The unusually large cemetery at Khvalynsk contained southern Europeoid and
northern Europeoid cranio-facial types, consistent with the possibility that people from the
northern and southern steppes mingled and were buried here.

Ÿ- 10122 / SVP35 (grave 12)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 20-30, positioned on his back with raised knees, with 293
copper artifacts, mostly beads, amounting to 80% of the copper objects in the combined
cemeteries of Khvalynsk I and II. Probably a high-status individual, his Y-chromosome
haplotype, R1b1, also characterized the high-status individuals buried under kurgans in later
Yamnaya graves in this region, so he could be regarded as a founder of an elite group of
patrilineally related families. His MtDNA haplotype H2a1 is unique in the Samara series.

Ÿ- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves. His U5a1i
MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series.

Ÿ- 10434 / SVP47 (grave 17)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 45-55, positioned contracted on his side, with 4
pathological wounds on his skull, one of which probably was fatal. No grave gifts or animal
sacrifices accompanied the burial. His Q1a Y-chromosome haplotype is unique in the Samara
steppe series, but his U4a2 or U4d MtDNA haplotype are not unusual."

Perhaps this is the "missing link", representing the Proto-Indo-European culture!

I guess this points to Copper Age Khvalynsk culture as the original community of Proto-Indo-European speakers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khvalynsk_culture

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 18:26
Both the R1a and R1b from this site are probably basal forms that no longer exist today. That's why it's no surpise to see them together. R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 probably became popular in separate populations after the birth of these people. And R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 erased earlier R1b1*, R1a1*, etc. lineages from EHG that existed together all over the place.

MOESAN
11-10-15, 18:50
thanks Fair Haired; things are becoming very exiting!

Finalise
11-10-15, 21:35
I agree with Fire Haired. The Samara/Khvalynsk R1bs are basal to the Yamna and Modern West European lineages. We have yet still to find the true source of L23.

LeBrok
11-10-15, 22:43
I agree with Fire Haired. The Samara/Khvalynsk R1bs are basal to the Yamna and Modern West European lineages. We have yet still to find the true source of L23.
Really? Just because one place is found carrying both R1a and b it means IE language! What about this Q1a guy in a mix? Also IE speaker?
Khalinsk culture has possible connection to Yamnaya and therefore to IE genesis, but it is very far from it in cultural development. No farming yet, no domesticated horses, no wheel, no genetic mixing with farmer neighbors yet from Near East and Cucuteni, etc. Were they proto IE, definitely not. At best they were one of contributing parties.

Fire Haired14
11-10-15, 23:26
It's totally possible R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from West Asia. If you think, all R1a-Z93 from ancient Steppe belongs to the same branch and not to the most popular form in India today. Maybe Yamnaya Z2103 is a differnt form than West Asian Z2103, and is an offshoot of West Asian Z2103. The highest R1b and R1b1a2 diversity is in West Asia. It's stupid IMO to assume the debate is over and there's prove they're EHG lineages and all expanded with Steppe-people.

Angela
12-10-15, 00:18
I don't think Fire-Haired was saying that the Ydna found at this site is the direct ancestor of the later lineages we find on the steppe. I think he's saying that these might be lineages* which died out, and that the ancestors of the lineages that later spread from the steppe probably existed elsewhere. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this site. Even though this is probably closer to 4700 BC than to 5200 BC, and farmers and metallurgy were to both their west and south, there is not even rudimentary farming and no metal working of any kind. All they had was copper beads which from the style and the metal indicate that they traded for them with Neolithic European populations to their west. There's also no sign of the wheel and no clear indication the horses had been domesticated, much less ridden. Indo-European had words for all these things.

Looking at it from a purely language perspective, according to the David Anthony theory isn't the earliest form of PIE (Anatolian) supposed to leave the steppe around 4000 BC? While it didn't have a word for wheel, it did have words for farming, which these people didn't have. So, I think I agree with LeBrok that these people may have fed into "Yamnaya" but I would doubt that this is any type of Indo-European group.

There are also interesting things to glean from their culture and their genetics.

They did have domesticated cattle and sheep. This is important, because they had to be imported from elsewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but David Anthony hypothesized that this was the first major change in the life of these hunter-gatherers and that they imported the animals from their Neolithic (EEF like) neighbors to the west.

This is where the genetics come into play. They don't seem to have any EEF. However, to varying degrees they do seem to have "teal" which we might define as "ENF plus ANE"? So, where did it come from? We only have two options...from south to north over the Caucasus or from Central Asia. If it came from the southern Caucasus wouldn't whoever carried it have brought along some farming? Later on there was some rudimentary farming in the river valleys. It's not as if the steppe was totally inhospitable to farming.

Let's say for arguments' sake (could people please not take my speculations as to what could have happened for dogma according to Angela as to what did happen?) that it all came from women from the Caucasus or south of it, and because the steppe was very sparsely populated some limited amount of bride exchange or raiding or selective advantage of some sort quickly changed them autosomally.In that case perhaps the hunter gatherers only wanted animals (along with the women) because it was an easier "sell" than crop farming.

On the other hand, if the admixture came from groups in central Asia, groups which were ANE heavy and also farmer heavy but who had abandoned crop farming in inhospitable terrain, they would have only domesticated animals to exchange.

Now, I don't know what yDNA those south Caucasus or more Central Asian like groups might have carried. Maybe J2a? However, I do have to mention that I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that R1b groups might have straddled the Caucasus and Caspian.

If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying I think it might be a possibility.

One thing that is pretty clear is that there were mixed groups of R1b/R1a/Q on the steppe. Later on it might have just boiled down to founder effect and chance which lineage came to dominate in which group.

I'm not quite sure they were all equal to begin with, however. The Q person definitely was lower status, either a captive or servant or slave. There's also a definite difference in status between the R1b and the R1a person. Now, before R1a champions get all hot and bothered, I'm not saying this was true everywhere. This is one group of three men. However, I think it's something to keep in mind as more samples come in from early periods, especially if the R1b figure has more "Teal" and that's consistent in other groupings. If a certain lineage was responsible for bringing in the animals, I would think they would have more prestige.

Ed. I just saw your post Fire-Haired. I used to think this paper or that paper would answer all the questions. Instead, while they do answer some, they at the same time disclose an incredible complexity that none of the simplistic models we used to rely on come close to capturing. I mean, just look at it: an R1b EEF person in Neolithic Iberia, a I1 EEF person in the Central European Neolithic, a J2a Bronze Age Indo European in Europe and a "J" EHG in Karelia. It's time to stop with all the Ultra-nationalistic posturing and spinning of data, stick to science, and admit that we don't know.

*Alan is right, they weren't basal lineages; they just probably died out.

Alan
12-10-15, 00:27
Both the R1a and R1b from this site are probably basal forms that no longer exist today. That's why it's no surpise to see them together. R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 probably became popular in separate populations after the birth of these people. And R1a-M417 and R1b-L23 erased earlier R1b1*, R1a1*, etc. lineages from EHG that existed together all over the place.


How is that R1a1 and R1b1 (clearly as they are labeled here) are basal forms? I think you probably mean they are dead ends with no known ancestors today?

In that case I agree.

LeBrok
12-10-15, 01:22
If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened.
I like that scenario and I tend to think that R1b L23 lived around Caspian Sea and this includes area North and South of Caucasus, as hunter gatherers. As such they could have easily transmit "teal" admixture to the North and they became farmers south of Caucasus and took part in Maykop Culture and expansion into Yamnaya. Probably together with J2. In this case by late Neolithic we could have some L23 being farmers from South and still some L23 being hunter gatherer from North. This definitely would mud the picture of first farmer-HG contacts in the Steppe, both being L23.
Later in Yamnaya, L23 developed L51 mutations in South West Yamnaya and expended into Europe, and Z2103 in East Yamnaya which became Indo-Iranian.

LeBrok
12-10-15, 01:24
How is that R1a1 and R1b1 (clearly as they are labeled here) are basal forms? I think you probably mean they are dead ends with no known ancestors today?

In that case I agree.
It makes sense, we already have seen such scenario few times, Mal'ta boy including.

Alan
12-10-15, 01:34
If R1b was the carrier of ANE, I don't see why it's impossible for them to have mingled with WHG in the northern stretches and ENF in the southern stretches. I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe. By the way, women in a lot of societies like to get their sons' wives from their own relatives if possible, even if they're pretty distant geographically. In either scenario, some R1b carriers might have been "Teal" like, and some "EHG" like, and some mixed, depending on the place and time. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just saying I think it might be a possibility.



My words but peeps on Eurogenes have a hard time understanding that. They thinK R1 lineages are exclusive to EHG.

arvistro
12-10-15, 07:21
Slowly but surely..
such a development, pre-PIE arrival from further East is proposed by Kortlandt in his Indo-Uralic....
Will look for exact quote.

Edit:
Indo-European is a branch of Indo-Uralic which was radically transformed under the
influence of a North Caucasian substratum when its speakers moved from the area
north of the Caspian Sea to the area north of the Black Sea (cf. Kortlandt 2007b).

bicicleur
12-10-15, 08:32
Really? Just because one place is found carrying both R1a and b it means IE language! What about this Q1a guy in a mix? Also IE speaker?
Khalinsk culture has possible connection to Yamnaya and therefore to IE genesis, but it is very far from it in cultural development. No farming yet, no domesticated horses, no wheel, no genetic mixing with farmer neighbors yet from Near East and Cucuteni, etc. Were they proto IE, definitely not. At best they were one of contributing parties.

there are not so many possibilities
either these were proto-IE or they went extinct later
and some branch of Q1a may have been IE as well, remember there are 2 subclades of Q1a in southern Scandinavia

bicicleur
12-10-15, 08:38
It's totally possible R1b-L23 and R1a-M417 are from West Asia. If you think, all R1a-Z93 from ancient Steppe belongs to the same branch and not to the most popular form in India today. Maybe Yamnaya Z2103 is a differnt form than West Asian Z2103, and is an offshoot of West Asian Z2103. The highest R1b and R1b1a2 diversity is in West Asia. It's stupid IMO to assume the debate is over and there's prove they're EHG lineages and all expanded with Steppe-people.

there have been numerous migrations into the Indus valley since 1800 BC
R1a-Z93 was allready on the steppe before that

bicicleur
12-10-15, 08:45
I'm not quite sure what to make of this site. Even though this is probably closer to 4700 BC than to 5200 BC, and farmers and metallurgy were to both their west and south, there is not even rudimentary farming and no metal working of any kind. All they had was copper beads which from the style and the metal indicate that they traded for them with Neolithic European populations to their west. There's also no sign of the wheel and no clear indication the horses had been domesticated, much less ridden. Indo-European had words for all these things.



Indeed they seem to be to primitive to be the proto-IE.
Unless they were the ones that domesticated the horse.
Your guess is as good as mine.

bicicleur
12-10-15, 08:53
This is where the genetics come into play. They don't seem to have any EEF. However, to varying degrees they do seem to have "teal" which we might define as "ENF plus ANE"? So, where did it come from? We only have two options...from south to north over the Caucasus or from Central Asia. If it came from the southern Caucasus wouldn't whoever carried it have brought along some farming? Later on there was some rudimentary farming in the river valleys. It's not as if the steppe was totally inhospitable to farming.



I wonder whether the teal component could be from some N tribes coming all the way through southern Siberia from northern China with pottery.
The Khvalynsk culture has the first pottery in Europe, and it is the Siberian type of pottery, not Middle Eastern.
On the other hand, if the 'teal' is of N origin, how come 'teal' is 'Armenian-like'?

bicicleur
12-10-15, 08:59
I think Jean Manco once posited that during their hunter-gatherer phase R1b might have wintered south of the Caspian and summered north of it. I don't remember how she arrived at that idea, but IF that was the case, it could certainly explain how some R1b got such healthy doses of "Teal" or ENF/ANE way before Maykop started influencing the steppe.


Because there were some vessels on the rock drawings in Gobustan dated 8-12000 years ago.
It's not impossible but IMO the argument is a bit flimsy.

arvistro
12-10-15, 09:41
Bit more from Mr Kortlandt "An outline of Proto-Indo-European". The combination of the first and the last sentence is intriguing.
"In the
following I shall give an overview of the grammar of Proto-Indo-European as it may
have been spoken around 4000 BC in the eastern Ukraine, shortly after the ancestors
of the Anatolians left for the Balkans (for more recent developments I refer to Beekes
1995). This stage preceded the common innovations of the non-Anatolian languages
such as *mer- ‘to die’ < ‘to disappear’ , *tu << *ti ‘thou’, *seʕ- ‘to satiate’ < ‘to stuff’,
*dhug̑ʕtēr << *dhueg̑ʕtr ‘daughter’, *ʕerʕ
w- ‘to plough’ < ‘to crush’, *meʔ ‘don’t!’ < ‘say
no!’, *ʔek̑uos << *ʔek̑u ‘horse’ (cf. Kloekhorst 2008: 8-10). It also preceded the rise of
the subjunctive and the optative and dialectal Indo-European developments such as
the rise of distinctive voicedness (not shared by Tocharian), the creation of a thematic
middle voice (cf. Kortlandt 2007a: 151-157), and the satemization of the palatovelars
(cf. Kortlandt 2009: 43). The lexicon included words for ‘cart’, ‘wheel’, ‘axle’, ‘yoke’,
‘carpenter’, ‘house’, ‘vessel’, ‘to plait’, ‘to weave’, ‘to spin’, ‘to clothe’, ‘ox’, ‘sheep’,
‘goat’, ‘horse’, ‘swine’, ‘cow’, ‘dog’, ‘to herd’, ‘to milk’, ‘butter’, ‘wool’, ‘lamb’, ‘gold’,
‘silver’, ‘copper’, ‘ore’, but not for ‘donkey’, ‘cat’, ‘chicken’, ‘duck’, ‘field’, ‘to sow’, ‘to
mow’, ‘to mill’, ‘to plough’, ‘iron’, ‘lead’, ‘tin’. There was no agricultural or
metallurgical vocabulary at this stage."

Alan
12-10-15, 12:18
Slowly but surely..
such a development, pre-PIE arrival from further East is proposed by Kortlandt in his Indo-Uralic....
Will look for exact quote.

Edit:
Indo-European is a branch of Indo-Uralic which was radically transformed under the
influence of a North Caucasian substratum when its speakers moved from the area
north of the Caspian Sea to the area north of the Black Sea (cf. Kortlandt 2007b).



Just that the substratum in Uralic seems to be predominantly if not excliuvely Indo Iranian in Origin. And there seems to be no Proto Uralic admixture in PIE at all.
On the other hand there is a real Proto Kartvelian substrata in PIE. What means Proto Indo European can't have evolved in close contact zone to Proto Uralic but it had to have evolved in close contact zone with Kartvelian.

It's allot more complicated than that. Another theory is, that Proto IE are Central Asian derived moving up on the eastern shores of the Caspian to Samara and there down to the Steppes which would explain how they got this weird EHG-Teal aDNA and y-mtdna combination.

arvistro
12-10-15, 12:41
You are mixing up things, genetic relationship is not loanwords...
"The Indo-Uralic elements of Indo-European include pronouns, case endings, verbal endings, participles and derivational suffixes."

arvistro
12-10-15, 12:43
t's allot more complicated than that. Another theory is, that Proto IE are Central Asian derived moving up on the eastern shores of the Caspian to Samara and there down to the Steppes which would explain how they got this weird EHG-Teal aDNA and y-mtdna combination.
It is not "another" theory, it is THE Indo-Uralic theory basics.

arvistro
12-10-15, 15:44
Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.

Fire Haired14
12-10-15, 20:09
Actually this Indo-Uralic theory gives me following impression:
We have "super cool" youth in Latvia who speak kind of Latvian but using English terms. For example, "es walkoju uz worku" (I am walking to the work).
Es, -oju, uz, -u those are Latvian. Walk, work of course is English.
In our case Latvian = Indo-Uralic and English = North Caucasian.

So, I offer a new view on this PIE problem. They were marginal community of immigrants from the East on its way to 'North-Caucasianisation' under pressure of their more advanced/populous neighbors, but then they got a <nuclear bomb> and became masters of their age.

And in 5,000 years English will be a small-language family and everyone will be speaking Latvian :)

Tomenable
14-10-15, 02:39
David Anthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIE origins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Khvalynsk+culture&source=bl&ots=2Z6-uUNLJz&sig=0-7K_jhoe4n7lfogNglzOukIIyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCGoVChMIo83i8cPAyAIVBV0UCh3WUgda#v=on epage&q=Khvalynsk%20culture&f=false

Khvalynsk was likely one of early PIE cultures, together with Sredny Stog and Repin (Repin = ancestral to Yamnaya).


On the other hand there is a real Proto Kartvelian substrata in PIE. What means Proto Indo European can't have evolved in close contact zone to Proto Uralic but it had to have evolved in close contact zone with Kartvelian.Actually, David Anthony wrote that PIEs had close relations with Proto-Kartvelians, but even closer with Proto-Uralics:

"(...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)"

This suggests that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in areas located between Proto-Uralics and Proto-Kartvelians.

Proto-Kartvelians lived in the Caucasus region, right? But do we know where did Proto-Uralics actually live ???

Did Proto-Uralics live somewhere close to the Ural Mountains, or in a completely different place?

arvistro
14-10-15, 07:35
Relation with Uralic was genetic, it does not mean they had to live close...
The skeleton of the language was Indo-Uralic, probably legacy of those folk from their Eastern motherland. Same motherland from which Uralic arrived later. North of Caspian as per Kortlandt.
Like in my Latvian - English example, those were Indo-Uralic people on their way to 'North-Caucasianisation' (for lack of better term)..
Using Indo-Uralic pronouns, case endings, verbal endings, participles and derivational suffixes but having "heterogenetic" vocabulary. Just like in my Latvian - English example.

MOESAN
16-10-15, 00:15
David Anthony, "The Horse, the Wheel, and Language" (on PIE origins), writes this about Khvalynsk culture:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=0FDqf415wqgC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Khvalynsk+culture&source=bl&ots=2Z6-uUNLJz&sig=0-7K_jhoe4n7lfogNglzOukIIyo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCGoVChMIo83i8cPAyAIVBV0UCh3WUgda#v=on epage&q=Khvalynsk%20culture&f=false

Khvalynsk was likely one of early PIE cultures, together with Sredny Stog and Repin (Repin = ancestral to Yamnaya).

Actually, David Anthony wrote that PIEs had close relations with Proto-Kartvelians, but even closer with Proto-Uralics:

"(...) The Semitic and Caucasian vocabulary that was borrowed into Proto-Indo-European through Kartvelian therefore contains roots that belonged to some Pre-Kartvelian or Proto-Kartvelian language in the Caucasus. This language had relations, through unrecorded intermediaries, with Proto-Indo-European on one side and Proto-Semitic on the other. That is not a particularly close lexical relationship. If Proto-Kartvelian was spoken on the south side of the North Caucasus Mountain range, as seems likely, it might have been spoken by people associated with the Early Transcaucasian Culture (also known as the Kura-Araxes culture), dated about 3500–2200 BCE. They could have had indirect relations with the speakers of Proto-Indo-European through the Maikop culture of the North Caucasus region. Many experts agree that Proto-Indo-European shared some features with a language ancestral to Kartvelian but not necessarily through a direct face-to-face link. Relations with the speakers of Proto-Uralic were closer. (...)"

This suggests that Proto-Indo-Europeans lived in areas located between Proto-Uralics and Proto-Kartvelians.

Proto-Kartvelians lived in the Caucasus region, right? But do we know where did Proto-Uralics actually live ???

Did Proto-Uralics live somewhere close to the Ural Mountains, or in a completely different place?




Always the problem of today and past location of people and languages, as opposed to archeologic remnants-
Who proves us Katvelian languages were at first spoken in South Caucasus?: could not the first speakers of these languages from more East locations? Yet, Urratians / Hurrits would have been come from S-E the Caspian, according to someones. Correct me if I'm wrong. the "southern-without-EEF" component of Yamanya people (Samara) and affiliated people could be explained like that in a more parcimonious way (always my eastern peri-caspian hypothesis opposed to the N to S transcaucasus one) - what would please me would having precise points about metals names in the diverse languages families in cause.
I have always found weird the great motivation of well evolved people - possessing metals ores in mountains and dominating ovins-caprins stocks between valleys and mountains - to pass through the Caucasus Mountains to steppic plains without too much ressources? and Yet they would have had challengers in the form of closer Cucuteni-Tripolje people... just an arguing, without any absolute certitude, because life and mankind as you know...
perhaps parental ligneages could send an answer, but in these mountainous regions drift can be strong...

MOESAN
23-10-15, 23:23
It's not the clearest elements to make our opinion byt a metric survey about Steppe samples + Maykop one and Shengarit one showed Khvalynsk were not homogenous; one sample was close enough to or at least less far from 1) Shengarit - 2) Maykop; this closer Khvalynsk one was close to a Sreny Stog sample. The farthest Khvalynsk sample is very close to the Mesolithic (EHG?) sample and to some Baltic Neolithic samples (Baltic Neolithic samples had a large span...)
I'm tempted to think PIE cristallized among a mix of HGs (a kind of Y-R1a at high levels) with a more southern at first more evolved group neolithicized before where maybe Y-R1b were more dense.
perhaps we have not to be too affraid by the presenc of some other Y- Haplos in W Steppes anf even farther North - it's possible a group of numerous Y-R1b was acculturated at pre-PIE times by some small group rich for Y-J2 among others, and that with time and extension of the process of acculturation and differentiation the more numerous R1b
by drift almost logically elimiated the less numerous Y-J2 (as others even lesser numerous) - the earlier Y-J far North were just the proof that Y-J had already send some isolated "scouts", through East the Caspian. We need "a lonesome swallow does not make spring"
this process of acculturation by in its geographical expansion could have put very soon R1b with some R1a on other borders (North-East of them in Central Asia)
all bets withou government guarantee!

Brennos
24-10-15, 11:16
It's not the clearest elements to make our opinion byt a metric survey about Steppe samples + Maykop one and Shengarit one showed Khvalynsk were not homogenous; one sample was close enough to or at least less far from 1) Shengarit - 2) Maykop; this closer Khvalynsk one was close to a Sreny Stog sample. The farthest Khvalynsk sample is very close to the Mesolithic (EHG?) sample and to some Baltic Neolithic samples (Baltic Neolithic samples had a large span...) I'm tempted to think PIE cristallized among a mix of HGs (a kind of Y-R1a at high levels) with a more southern at first more evolved group neolithicized before where maybe Y-R1b were more dense. perhaps we have not to be too affraid by the presenc of some other Y- Haplos in W Steppes anf even farther North - it's possible a group of numerous Y-R1b was acculturated at pre-PIE times by some small group rich for Y-J2 among others, and that with time and extension of the process of acculturation and differentiation the more numerous R1b by drift almost logically elimiated the less numerous Y-J2 (as others even lesser numerous) - the earlier Y-J far North were just the proof that Y-J had already send some isolated "scouts", through East the Caspian. We need "a lonesome swallow does not make spring" this process of acculturation by in its geographical expansion could have put very soon R1b with some R1a on other borders (North-East of them in Central Asia) all bets withou government guarantee! I think the same thing, but with some variations: I always thought that PIE came from a more southern place than the classical Urheimat. For me, a group of J2a and G2a men neolithicized R1b men from Caucasus and the steppe. Then PIE evolved in a community of R1b men with wives from the area of the J2a and G2a farmers. The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

MOESAN
24-10-15, 14:14
I think the same thing, but with some variations: I always thought that PIE came from a more southern place than the classical Urheimat. For me, a group of J2a and G2a men neolithicized R1b men from Caucasus and the steppe. Then PIE evolved in a community of R1b men with wives from the area of the J2a and G2a farmers. The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

very possible - my current position is the Y-R1b were at first more east the Caspian than in North Pont - I know my guess is a guess: other people hold Y-R1b was older South the Caucasus... problem of analysis of succession of SNP's... I speak here of OUR R1b close ancestors, not the Upper Paleolithic ones, settled even farther East...

Tomenable
02-11-15, 04:05
On 20 February 2015 - before we had any Y-DNA from Khvalynsk culture - Mayu posted these maps on his blog:

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-62fdcok0PT0/U1dzIeWMNKI/AAAAAAAAChk/hhpglPPJrno/s1600/IE1.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CeK4gX-YKHI/U1dzIlx0RjI/AAAAAAAAChs/M1ZJy-pavXY/s1600/IE2.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4lp4uK-eJ0M/U1dzIjfPofI/AAAAAAAACho/6Ljb1_71WlY/s1600/IE3.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OOeuQCaxHvM/U1dzJLyHVmI/AAAAAAAACh8/Usc7WprvvMY/s1600/IE4.png

More about Khvalynsk culture can be found here, in an article from 2012:

http://thehistoryofeuropepodcast.blogspot.com/2012/06/incredible-khvalynsk-culture-of-lower.html


The Khvalynsk were early forerunners in the use of domesticated horses and burying their important dead in kurgans. If you remember from previous posts or are a listener to the podcast, you'll know that a kurgan is a burial mound made popular with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The burial of their dead also marks a transition from an egalitarian society to a more stratified one. Some of the graves contain far better arrays of grave goods than others, but their was yet to be a special marker for a chief or ruler of a community. They were also early adopters of the metal technologies. Many of their graves have metal ornamental jewelry. Conspicuously absent though are metal tools or weapons, suggesting that either the Khvalynsk had not discovered the incredible usage of metal, were only advanced enough smiths to make jewelry or imported the metal objects from other cultures surrounding it. Marija Gimbutas, the archeologist we relied on heavily for episode 6 of the podcast, visited the Khvalynsk site herself and denoted a grave she believed to be a chief. This grave contained a number of highly crafted flint weapons and a number of beads. In addition to the beads there were the teeth of a number of wild animals, some of which are difficult to extract. The difficulty in which these teeth were cut out of an animal after death suggests that some of the teeth might have been valuable enough as trade items. Whether or not they served as a proto-currency though is impossible to tell. The Khvalynsk would eventually devolve and reemerge as the Yamna culture and to a lesser extent, the Sredny Stog Culture, both of which episode 7 of the podcast will delve into.

Tomenable
02-11-15, 04:18
The last passage was the Indoeuropeization of R1a men, who were the original mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Western Siberia.

We have samples of EHGs* with both R1a and R1b - despite different Y-DNA, they were autosomally identical (= the same reproductive community).

*Eastern Hunter-Gatherers

However, later they got a Neolithic "Teal" admixture, which was already present in Khvalynsk (and to an even larger extent in later cultures), without much change in their Y-DNA (R1b/R1a). I think they got "Teal" through female lines mostly - either through bride exchange/kidnapping, or through conquest (i.e. a group of EHGs conquered farming communities, decimated/marginalized their men, and took their women).

Khvalynsk already possessed domesticated horses, even though there is probably (so far) not much evidence that they could ride them.

I wonder if domestication of horses by EHGs took place before they got admixed by "Teal" people, or after that?

We have evidence from North America of hunter-gatherers domesticating horses on their own, with no help from farmers. IMO domestication of horses is a feat achieved by EHGs, while the rest of "know-how" they got from "Teal" immigrants, perhaps via their women.

From North America we also have evidence, that nomadic hunters who can ride horses are capable of dominating farmers militarily (Comanche, Sioux, Cheyenne nomadic hunters dominated / defeated tribes of farmers, such as Arikara, Mandan, Hidatsa or Pawnee).

We also have examples of nomadic hunting tribes forming "mutually beneficial symbiotic relationships" with farming tribes (e.g. Comanche with Wichita). But if there was such a relationship between EHGs and "Teal people", then where is Y-DNA of "Teal people"?

Comanche-Wichita "nomads-farmers symbiosis" existed for ~150 years, until the destruction of Comanche by the U.S. Army.

================================

Just like we had Neolithic samples from previously WHG-inhabited territories, and we wondered where did those G2a come from; now we have evidence of Neolithic "Teal people" in EHG-inhabited territories, and we are wondering what Y-DNA did they bring with them, if any.

In case of EEF people there was a clear evidence that Y-DNA changed (WHGs had I and C, new farmers had G, E, H, etc.).

But in case of "Teal" people, there is no similar evidence - nothing indicates (so far) that they replaced EHG male lineages.

However, in case of EEF we have finally managed to locate their point of departure into Europe, when Neolithic ENF samples from Western Anatolia were tested. So now we know with near-certainty, that farmers expanded into Central Europe from Western Anatolia.

What we need to do next, is to try to find samples of aDNA of "Teal people" in their original homeland - where did they come to the steppe from?

Khvalynsk people were 75% EHG and 25% Teal. Yamnaya people were probably even more Teal, and less EHG.

But where did the population which was 100% Teal originally live ??? http://www.anthrogenica.com/images/smilies1/noidea.gif And what was that population's Y-DNA and mtDNA ???

As for Yamnaya from Samara Oblast:

IIRC, they used to be modelled as ~70% EHG (~35% WHG + ~35% ANE) + ~30% Teal (~25% Near Eastern + ~5% South Asian):

http://s11.postimg.org/qnfeh2q1v/Autosomal_DNA.png

But apparently some recalculations have taken place (?), and now Yamnaya Samara are only ~50% EHG + ~50% Teal/Armenian:

http://s1.postimg.org/8s7j5xipr/EDF2.png

Why did proportion of EHG in Yamnaya decline? Is this because the "Teal people" were themselves partially ANE or WHG or EHG?

Here is what Gravetto-Danubian from Anthrogenica has suggested regarding autosomal ancestry of "Teal people", including their ANE:


EHG are modelled as 60% WHG, 40% ANE

Yet, Yamnaya are almost 50/ 50 EHG and "Teal" or "Georgian".

Yet in diluting their EHG component from 100 % to 50%, their ANE stays at ~ 40% (ie does not drop). Also Yamnaya's WHG level is ~ 35 % (ie it drops from EHG). And they pick up EEF -type mixture, but apparently a different type to central Europe.

So the Teal guys must have had a fair whack of ANE, as well as EEF*, and low WHG. (something like 45: 45: 10)

This means, if existent, Teal's geographic origins must be from an area which by 4000 BC had EEf exposure, but had low WHG, and high ANE - as Generalissimo explained a few posts back. If correct, this puts a geographic limit as to where it could have come from: IMO the Aral-Caspian region, most likely toward the south - Ie the Amu Darya region. But we know in fact this region was in contact with more north-western areas long before the Bronze Age - hence Khvalynsk already shows some "Teal". So "Teal" was possibly already rather widespread by 3000 BC, and increased in Yamnaya as more groups moved onto the steppe from the Caucasus (Majkop) region ?

The Majkop genomes are being studied

*But he is wrong calling that EEF - "Teal people" had no EEF, they just have some other Neolithic admixture, as Coldmountains writes:


Teal had zero EEF and Yamnaya was around 33-35% ANE. Teal is obviously from the Neolithic Caucasus

If you read carefully in the very quote you referenced, you'd note that I wrote that Teal had some kind of EF but different to that in Central Europe. I'm not aware of a current acronym for it though ( ? ' The other EF': TOEF; or "Asian early farmer: AEF http://www.anthrogenica.com/images/smilies1/smile.gif )

Indeed - according to Davidski, "Teal people" resembled modern Western Georgians (Mingrelians) even more than Armenians:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/10/yamnayas-exotic-ancestry-kartvelian.html

MOESAN
05-11-15, 14:44
Georgians have a little bit more 'northern european' than Armenians (who have nothing of it indeed!) - on some plottings, the deviation of Georgians from Armenians is towards Tadjiks...whta is not the geographic direction, of course!
I think (inspired by other forumers too) that the osmosis between EHG and "southerners" began earlier than Bronze Age, rather at a Neolithic level; and so I see rather the East Caspian side as a road of exchanges than the Caucasus mountains, at least for the most of these early exchanges; Maykop could have had a strong enough cultural effect but a weak genetic one; but it's wise waiting for Maykop auDNA. Maybe Maykop saw some light demic exchanges on the 2 directions?

Rethel
28-11-15, 03:16
Everyone who claim that Q from Chwałyńsk was IE should see this: :laughing:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.de/2015/11/the-khvalynsk-men.html?m=1


They wrote:

On the other hand, sample 10434, the one belonging to haplogroup Q1a,
and positioned further east than the other two, appears to have been
whacked on the head a few times and simply thrown in a ditch.

He was certainly very welcome by R1 Indoeuropeans :laughing:

As I said - IE = R1. Period.
It cannot be another way.

http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/club-to-the-head.gif

Kristiina
01-12-15, 17:39
Tomenable, why did you exclude Finland and Estonia from Corded Ware? In these maps:
https://extras.csc.fi/arctinet/kivikaus/m2/2_6_1.htm
http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/arla/keram/nuora.html
you can see that Corded Ware covered all Estonia and Western Finland and Corded ware period is dated c. 3200 - 2500 eKr. in Finland. There is not any delay compared to Sweden.

One of the highest numbers of battle axes has been found in Finland. Battle axes have been found even in the northern part of the country. This paper includes many maps on distribution of battle axes in Finland:
http://www.kirj.ee/public/Archaeology/2014/issue_1/arch-2014-1-3-29.pdf

Agriculture started in Finland during the Corded ware period. Here is more information on agriculture in Finland during the Corded Ware period: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1791/20140819

"Here, we examine food residues in pottery, testing a hypothesis that Neolithic farming was practiced beyond the 60th parallel north. Our findings, based on diagnostic biomarker lipids and δ13C values of preserved fatty acids, reveal a transition at ca 2500 BC from the exploitation of aquatic organisms to processing of ruminant products, specifically milk, confirming farming was practiced at high latitudes."

Moreover, I have seen in PC graphs that modern Finns and Estonians are still very close to ancient Corded Ware people.

Kristiina
01-12-15, 20:05
This is my own position (red dot) with respect to ancient samples according to Eurogenes. You can see that I am close to Corded Ware in the direction of SHG. I doubt that there are many people on this forum who are closer to Corded Ware than I am.

7545

Tomenable
01-12-15, 20:16
Tomenable, why did you exclude Finland and Estonia from Corded Ware?

That is not my map, it was made by certain Maju, who is from Basque Country - I posted a link to his blog.

As for Corded Ware in Estonia and Finland - some maps show it, others forget about it. It was probably Indo-European speaking, because Finnic-speakers expanded to Estonia and Finland only around year 1200 BC, assimilating local IE substratum (these early IE loanwords are still visible in Baltic Finnic languages today, but are not present in Ugric and other Uralic languages spoken farther east):

Here good maps from elisanet.fi website, showing origin, migration and development of Finnic languages:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

Tomenable
01-12-15, 20:32
Moreover, I have seen in PC graphs that modern Finns and Estonians are still very close to ancient Corded Ware people.

Depends which ones. There is a strong genetic divide between Western (or South-Western) Finns and Eastern Finns. While Western Finns may be close to Corded Ware people, Eastern Finns are not. Some people say that this divide is due to Swedish settlement in Western Finland*, but in reality it is probably more ancient (as I wrote, as Proto-Finnic-speakers expanded from the Ural region and from the Upper Volga region towards the Baltic Sea, they assimilated local IE substratum around year 1200 BCE, when they got there - that IE substratum existed only in South-Western Finland, as Corded Ware culture never made it to Eastern and North-Eastern Finland).

Finnic languages ultimately descend from West-Uralic, which was spoken ca. 1600 BC at the Upper Volga:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

Ca. 1200 BC Early Proto-Finnic speakers, descended from West-Uralic speakers, made it to the Baltic Sea:

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

Middle Proto-Finnic was spoken ca. 500 BC (these maps are based on recent studies of Finnish linguists):

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

*There is still a large ethnic Swedish minority in Western Finland, and many Western Finns have Swedish ancestry.

Tomenable
01-12-15, 20:44
As for Estonia - Corded Ware influence is quite obvious there, because Estonians have a lot of R1a (apart from N1c).

I know that some parts of Finland also have a lot of R1a, but which parts are these ??? Southern regions ???

Kristiina
01-12-15, 22:14
Corded Ware influence is obvious in Finland autosomally, archaelogically and linguistically.

I think that the highest R1a frequency is in Bothnia area (in the Northwest). However, there is R1a everywhere. You can check it here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland?iframe=ymap or here https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap but it is better choose ALL and then zoom to Finland.

Maybe Finnish language stems from the Uralic language that was spoken in Volga area but as long as we do not have any ancient YDNA or autosomal evidence from the relevant areas we cannot be so confident about anything.

My genes are surely not a result of any Swedish settlement. The basis of my genes is in Mesolithic Kunda and in a later population with SHG affinity. A more recent part of my genes is from Corded Ware and from the assimilation of genes from an Arctic population inhabiting the Northern part of Scandinavia into Western Finns but there really isn’t much room for any Uralic gene flow from Volga during the Iron Age. My Siberian portion is similar to Norwegian Siberian portion (cf. mtDNA Z1a). In Busby et al. 2015, all Siberian in Finns (as well as in Norwegians) is related to a group consisting of Kets, Selkups and Nenets, but none of this geneflow went into Mordvins who are the closest linguistic relatives of Finnic speakers or to Kargopol Russians.

When you look at the PC map I posted, you can see that Corded Ware is clearly to the east of Scandinavians and Germans; it is even to the east of my position. Volga Ural populations are equally close to Corded Ware as North European IE’s, and Saamis may be even closer than Finns or Scandinavians. If there ever was any Iron Age Uralic migration from Volga to Finland, those Uralics were autosomally close to Corded Ware people.

“Corded Ware culture never made it to Eastern and North-Eastern Finland”
On the basis of distribution of battle axes, that claim is not very tenable. See the snips below: the first one without a text is the distribution of Finnish and Continental battle axes.

7546

7547

7548

Kristiina
01-12-15, 22:35
Moreover, now that the most ancient N1c is still N1c found in Smolensk 2500 BC which is probably ancestral to all Finnish N1c and precedes all Finnic protolanguages you posted, there is really not any Iron Age genetic yDNA path from Volga to Finland and neither in terms of mtDNA. The situation is tricky.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal anaysis from Volga is desperately needed in order to clarify the situation.

Ukko
28-12-15, 05:48
Moreover, now that the most ancient N1c is still N1c found in Smolensk 2500 BC which is probably ancestral to all Finnish N1c and precedes all Finnic protolanguages you posted, there is really not any Iron Age genetic yDNA path from Volga to Finland and neither in terms of mtDNA. The situation is tricky.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal anaysis from Volga is desperately needed in order to clarify the situation.



N1c is clearly the language carrier via elite dominance, its influence stopped or was reversed in the Baltic and Scandinavia.

You almost sound like you think Corded Ware was Uralic, you need to let go of that.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg