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Angela
15-10-15, 00:15
See:

The earliest unequivocally modern humans in southern China
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#close

"The hominin record from southern Asia for the early Late Pleistocene epoch is scarce. Well-dated and well-preserved fossils older than ~45,000 years that can be unequivocally attributed to Homo sapiens are lacking1 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref1), 2 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref2), 3 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref3), 4 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref4). Here we present evidence from the newly excavated Fuyan Cave in Daoxian (southern China). This site has provided 47 human teeth dated to more than 80,000 years old, and with an inferred maximum age of 120,000 years. The morphological and metric assessment of this sample supports its unequivocal assignment to H. sapiens. The Daoxian sample is more derived than any other anatomically modern humans, resembling middle-to-late Late Pleistocene specimens and even contemporary humans. Our study shows that fully modern morphologies were present in southern China 30,000–70,000 years earlier than in the Levant and Europe5 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref5), 6 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref6), 7 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref7). Our data fill a chronological and geographical gap that is relevant for understanding when H. sapiens first appeared in southern Asia. The Daoxian teeth also support the hypothesis that during the same period, southern China was inhabited by more derived populations than central and northern China. This evidence is important for the study of dispersal routes of modern humans. Finally, our results are relevant to exploring the reasons for the relatively late entry of H. sapiens into Europe. Some studies have investigated how the competition with H. sapiens may have caused Neanderthals’ extinction (see ref. 8 (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#ref8) and references therein). Notably, although fully modern humans were already present in southern China at least as early as ~80,000 years ago, there is no evidence that they entered Europe before ~45,000 years ago. This could indicate that H. neanderthalensis was indeed an additional ecological barrier for modern humans, who could only enter Europe when the demise of Neanderthals had already started."

Extended data and figures and supplement can be found here:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature15696.html#access

Most of that seems to have to do with the cave and dental morphology.

Goga
15-10-15, 00:31
Very interesting!

But how is this possible if we assume that out of Africa (OOA) is right? I mean how could first modern human appear in Southern China is they skipped Levant? Maybe by sea from Horn of Africa to India and then to SouthEast Asia?

Goga
15-10-15, 00:36
According to OOA this was the case:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Spreading_homo_sapiens_la.svg/800px-Spreading_homo_sapiens_la.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Spreading_homo_sapiens_la.svg)



Or this was more likely the case:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/African_Mitochondrial_descent.PNG)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_human

oriental
15-10-15, 02:43
The dating by looking at mutations may not be accurate. The linearization of the mutation rate is an over simplification. It is probably nonlinear and the environment, radiation from radioactive rocks, life style and other unknown factors may be responsible for mutation. In the Ice age where the environment was clean and relative stable i.e. lack of human invention or creation like alcohol, preservatives and others the mutations would be very slow maybe even one mutation per 1,000 or even 10,000 years. It seems the only sure way is carbon dating of artifacts and samples and remains. Though I read somewhere even carbon dating accuracy maybe +/- a few thousand years.

Tomenable
15-10-15, 04:13
Wow! Are these humans from China really modern humans, not just Neanderthals?

If so, then it is very surprising indeed. Do they know what was his Y-DNA and his mtDNA, or not yet?

A modern human found in Australia, who lived 62,000 years ago, was not descended from "mitochondrial Eve" - see:

"Mitochondrial DNA sequences in ancient Australians: Implications for modern human origins":

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/2/537.full.pdf

An excerpt:

"(...) Sequences from the lineage that includes LM3’s mtDNA no longer occur in human populations, except as the nuclear Insert on chromosome 11. The fact that LM3’s [LM = Lange Mungo] morphology is within the range of living indigenous Australians indicates that the lineages of the alleles contributing to this gracile phenotype have survived. In contrast, the mtDNAs of the robust KS [KS = Kow Swamp] individuals belong to the contemporary human lineage. Their distinct robust morphology has not survived intact, implying that the allelic lineages of many of the genes that contribute to this phenotype have been lost. (...)"

Figure 1. from this paper shows, that LM3's mtDNA lineage separated from ancestors of "Eva" after Neanderthal mtDNA.

This suggests that there were several expansions of modern humans from Africa.

But those early waves either got extinct / totally replaced, or at least their mitochondrial and Y-DNA haplogroups were.

LeBrok
15-10-15, 04:20
Very interesting!

But how is this possible if we assume that out of Africa (OOA) is right? I mean how could first modern human appear in Southern China is they skipped Levant? Maybe by sea from Horn of Africa to India and then to SouthEast Asia?
Not by the sea but through the land. 100 kya HS bones were discovered in Yemen. HS were adopted to life in Africa, therefore when they left they needed to keep in same climatic conditions in order to survive, Like Yemen, India or South China. Black skin didn't let them venture to far North either. Well, they needed to swim about 10 km from Africa to Yemen, but this could have been done on a lousy raft, or tree trunk in few hours with right winds.













Notably, although fully modern humans were already present in southern China at least as early as ~80,000 years ago, there is no evidence that they entered Europe before ~45,000 years ago. This could indicate that H. neanderthalensis was indeed an additional ecological barrier for modern humans, who could only enter Europe when the demise of Neanderthals had already started."




Up North, in Europe and Central Asia, there was long and cold ice Age. They ventured there later when picked up the right adaptive mutations and cloths from Neanderthals and Denisovans.
I don't think the Neanderthals were the barrier for humans to settle in Europe. In some way they were the solution. ;)

Tomenable
15-10-15, 04:23
But how is this possible if we assume that out of Africa (OOA) is right?

Yes it is possible. There could be numerous OOAs, but only one successful. Earlier groups got extinct - or at least their mtDNA did. Lake Mungo man shows, that there were anatomically modern humans, who were descended from another woman than "mitochondrial Eve", and whose lineages diverged from that of "Eve" long after Neanderthal lineages. But descendants of that woman died out - or at least their mtDNA haplogroups died out.

Only mtDNA lines descended from "Eve" survived to modern times. Modern Australian Aborigines also have mtDNA exclusively from "Eve".

They should really test mtDNA and Y-DNA of these Chinese humans from 120,000 years ago.

I don't think they were descended from "Eve", which implies, that they got extinct and their genes did not survive in large amounts. Maybe there is a few percent autosomal admixture from that population in modern Chinese people (just like there is a few % Neanderthal autosomal DNA).

Tomenable
15-10-15, 04:39
Earliest modern human dated to 120,000 years ago

Small correction: earliest far from Africa (2nd earliest is LM3 from Australia).

But in Africa there are earlier fossils of anatomically modern humans - check:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils#Middle_Paleolithic :_300.2C000_-_50.2C000_years_old

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omo_remains

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens_idaltu

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/herto.html

Homo Sapiens Idaltu is 160,000 years old, and Omo Remains 195,000 years old.

Really, 40,000 - 75,000 years is more than enough to get from Ethiopia to China.

LeBrok
15-10-15, 04:47
They should really test mtDNA and Y-DNA of these Chinese humans from 120,000 years ago.
It will be tricky to get decent amount of undamaged DNA from these old bones in hot and humid climate.

Tomenable
15-10-15, 04:58
To me it looks like an early, relatively small OOA emigration, which got to China, but was later driven to extinction by Toba eruption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Europe and the Levant were controlled by Neanderthals, and that population got cut off in China-India area, until Toba killed them.

But if they prove that mitochondrial Eve lived in China then maybe I will start believing in "Out Of China" theory. :)

Tomenable
15-10-15, 05:04
I don't think the Neanderthals were the barrier for humans to settle in Europe.

I think they were. I think that Neanderthals were against Homo Sapiens immigration. :)

That was the Very First European Migrant Crisis. ;)

LeBrok
15-10-15, 05:19
I think they were. I think that Neanderthals were against Homo Sapiens immigration. :)

That was the Very First European Migrant Crisis. ;)
Lol, good one.

bicicleur
15-10-15, 08:49
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34531861

IMO they are descendant of the people surviving the Saalien ice age on the bottom of the Persian Gulf :

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110127/full/news.2011.55.html

Maybe by the time they arrived in China, they were admixed with Denisovans?

bicicleur
15-10-15, 08:51
I started a new thread and now I see this topic is allready in this one.

This is a copy of the thread I started :

modern humans in SW China > 80 ka
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34531861

IMO they are descendant of the people surviving the Saalien ice age on the bottom of the Persian Gulf :

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/1101...s.2011.55.html (http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110127/full/news.2011.55.html)

Maybe by the time they arrived in China, they were admixed with Denisovans?

bicicleur
15-10-15, 08:52
there is allready another thread on this subject :

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31636-Earliest-modern-human-dated-to-120-000-years-ago-found-in-southern-China

bicicleur
15-10-15, 08:55
expansion times for D is +/- 65000 year, for C & F 50.000 year, so this branch > 80.000 year is extinct

bicicleur
15-10-15, 08:58
I think they were. I think that Neanderthals were against Homo Sapiens immigration. :)

That was the Very First European Migrant Crisis. ;)

I agree, if they integrated, Neanderthal admixture would have been much higher than it is now
furthermore, in nature, 2 similar animal species competing for +/- same food resources never live in the same area together

bicicleur
15-10-15, 09:10
To me it looks like an early, relatively small OOA emigration, which got to China, but was later driven to extinction by Toba eruption:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Europe and the Levant were controlled by Neanderthals, and that population got cut off in China-India area, until Toba killed them.

But if they prove that mitochondrial Eve lived in China then maybe I will start believing in "Out Of China" theory. :)

ashes from Toba eruption fell west, across India and till the Arabian Sea, not east in China
furthermore stone tools found under & above the ash layer in Jwalapuram, India show humans or humanoids survived

I believe in the out of Arabia theory far haplo's B,C,D,E and F

bicicleur
15-10-15, 09:18
Yes it is possible. There could be numerous OOAs, but only one successful. Earlier groups got extinct - or at least their mtDNA did. Lake Mungo man shows, that there were anatomically modern humans, who were descended from another woman than "mitochondrial Eve", and whose lineages diverged from that of "Eve" long after Neanderthal lineages. But descendants of that woman died out - or at least their mtDNA haplogroups died out.

Only mtDNA lines descended from "Eve" survived to modern times. Modern Australian Aborigines also have mtDNA exclusively from "Eve".

They should really test mtDNA and Y-DNA of these Chinese humans from 120,000 years ago.

I don't think they were descended from "Eve", which implies, that they got extinct and their genes did not survive in large amounts. Maybe there is a few percent autosomal admixture from that population in modern Chinese people (just like there is a few % Neanderthal autosomal DNA).

IMO they must be haplo A and split > 130 ka

bicicleur
15-10-15, 09:21
It will be tricky to get decent amount of undamaged DNA from these old bones in hot and humid climate.

there are no bones, just teeth

but they can extract DNA from teeth, right?

Kristiina
15-10-15, 12:38
According to recent ”A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture”, D and E separated c. 70 000 years ago and C and GT separated a bit earlier (p. 3, http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Figures.pdf)
That is not very far from Homo Sapiens being found 80 000 ago in China. So these teeth might belong to Y line DE or CT if they are 70-90 kya old and to DT if they are older. Separation of B and DT is set at 100 kya. However, I have seen people claiming that the age of recent lines tends to be overestimated and the age of old branches underestimated. But of course, the Y line of these modern humans can be an unknown older branch of our Y haplotree.

The recent mtDNA N paper gave new age estimations to different N haplogroups:
L3, Khor Angar, Djibouti 70.8 kya
N11, Kunming China, 75,9 kya
S, Darwin, Australia, 46.8 kya
This means that the age of only N11 in China is almost 80 kya.

LeBrok
15-10-15, 16:36
there are no bones, just teeth

but they can extract DNA from teeth, right?Yes they can.

Angela
15-10-15, 21:57
Some reactions to the paper:

Chris Springer:
7448

Dienekes:
"Another (?)-worthy paper has just appeared in Nature in the heels of the African ancient genome paper. Time will tell how these worldview-altering discoveries will change the story of Mankind, and a degree of skepticism is warranted. In the view I've held for a few years, modern humans expanded to Arabia before 100 thousand years ago, started leaving it 70 thousand years ago as the ecological situation worsened due to desertification and broke through the "Neandertal barrier" between 70-50 thousand years ago when they developed the skills and technology to overcome them.

The new paper claims that modern humans were in China 80 thousand years ago and came to Europe much later because Neandertal represented a barrier to successful entry to Europe. This begs the question of how they reached China without encountering Neandertals, as Neandertals were also in West Asia where -presumably- they passed through to get to China. A coastal route to south China would explain away this problem, but the coastal migration is usually envisioned much later, at around 60 thousand years ago. On top of that, how did Chinese end up having equal (or more) levels of Neandertals admixture if modern humans first went to China and later moved west and successfully outcompeted the Neandertals. How were they able to do so eventually? (There is no evidence that the kind of advantages associated with behavioral modernity first emerged in East Asia). It's possible that there were 80 thousand year-old modern humans in China (just as there were 100 thousand year-old modern humans in Israel), but that the later East Asians are not descended from them.

One would think that science would present an increasingly reasonable and consistent picture of the past, but it seems that we're a very long way from the point where the dust settles and the puzzle pieces start falling into place. "
http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/10/modern-humans-in-china-80000-years-ago.html

So, I guess Out of Arabia is looking better and better?

Miqui Rumba
21-10-15, 17:42
The problem is that in India was not reported any discovery about ancient sapiens further more 70,000 y.a. When new samples in South-West Asia will appear then we will know how and where ancient asians interbred with denisovan and neanderthals.

bicicleur
21-10-15, 18:15
The problem is that in India was not reported any discovery about ancient sapiens further more 70,000 y.a. When new samples in South-West Asia will appear then we will know how and where ancient asians interbred with denisovan and neanderthals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soanian

Soanian culture existed 500 - 125 ka in northern Pakistan & India.

Why did these humanoids dissapear ? Where they Denisovans ?

125 ka they may have been replaced by these early modern humans, but there is no trace of them.

oriental
24-10-15, 00:24
Human remains left by predatorsThe teeth were found in a cave system along with the remains of mammals, including a extinct giant panda, and other animal species. No stone tools were uncovered, leading researchers to believe that humans had never lived in the cave and that the teeth had been left there by predators.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151015145903-china-teeth-cave-1-medium-plus-169.jpegThe research team now hope to DNA test the teeth to determine the origin of the Daoxian population.



"The teeth are basically the same as yours and mine," Liu said.
The teeth were so old they could not be tested using carbon dating, so scientists had to date the surrounding calcite deposits and human remains in the cave to estimate their age.
"They really look modern, but they are very old," Martinón-Torres said of the teeth. "And they are very old also particularly when we take into account that they were found in China."



Wonder if it(they) was(were) tiger(s), bear(s) or some other carnivore.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/china/china-teeth-cave-nature/