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Angela
18-10-15, 21:43
Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421


Abstract

"Siberia and Western Russia are home to over 40 culturally and linguistically diverse indigenous ethnic groups. Yet, genetic variation of peoples from this region is largely uncharacterized. We present whole-genome sequencing data from 28 individuals belonging to 14 distinct indigenous populations from that region. We combine these datasets with additional 32 modern-day and 15 ancient human genomes to build and compare autosomal, Y-DNA and mtDNA trees. Our results provide new links between modern and ancient inhabitants of Eurasia. Siberians share 38% of ancestry with descendants of the 45,000-year-old Ust-Ishim people, who were previously believed to have no modern-day descendants. Western Siberians trace 57% of their ancestry to the Ancient North Eurasians, represented by the 24,000-year-old Siberian Malta boy. In addition, Siberians admixtures are present in lineages represented by Eastern European hunter-gatherers from Samara, Karelia, Hungary and Sweden (from 8,000-6,600 years ago), as well as Yamnaya culture people (5,300-4,700 years ago) and modern-day northeastern Europeans. These results provide new evidence of ancient gene flow from Siberia into Europe."

Ust'Ishim was yDna NO

There's so much in the data figures it's going to take a while to digest it all.

Data Supplements:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only

Data Figures:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/10/18/029421.DC1/029421-2.pdf (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only)
(http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only)

arvistro
18-10-15, 22:16
Thanks.
I checked the Supplementaries and must admit capitulated unconditionally to those graphs and other info. I need an interpretor :)

Kristiina
18-10-15, 22:48
Interesting paper, but I would still like to get more ancient yDNA from Northern Eurasia:
Up today we have only the following:
Ust Ishim, c. 40 000 BP, NO
Ma1, 24 000 BP, yDNA R
Afontova Gora, 17 000 BP yDNA Q (?)
Saqqaq 4000 BP, Q
Karelian Mesolithic, 7000 BP, yDNA J and R1a
Bronze Age Altai, yDNA Q

The analyses on modern Siberians have shown that the oldest yDNA’s in Siberia are Q, C and N in this order (R has been excluded). Therefore, I would abstain from saying that there was a migration of N from North East Asia to Europe as long as Ust Ishim is the only evidence. I really hope that some geneticists would analyze Siberian and North Eurasian ancient burials in order to clarify the yDNA history of Mesolithic Siberia. In order to understand the development of West Siberian genetic ancestry, we would really be a lot wiser if someone analyzed Baraba Forest Steppe yDNA.

Goga
18-10-15, 23:01
Thank you for this latest paper. As you can see even according to them there was East into West migration and not vice versa.

I like their map very much!


http://s24.postimg.org/gxu6b629h/Untitled.jpg

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only



According to them the folks (GREEN European ancestors) from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Yamnaya via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan, before they later Indo-Europized the rest of Europe.

Like I said a couple of days ago it's possible that those folks were R1a and arrived in the stepped via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea, while R1b from the Iranian Plaeau arirved in Yamnaya via the Maykop civilization.


Both R1a and R1b are from the Iranian Plateau. But R1b entered the Steppes via Caucasus, while R1a entered the Steppes via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan from Iran.



PS: Yo fellas, I told you so. No matter how much some folks try to change history, this is how it was and you can't change it. The more you try, the more you FAIL......

Goga
18-10-15, 23:22
And as I said before (here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31629-Part-2-8-000-years-of-Natural-Selection-in-Europe/page4 ), the YELLOW EHG folks were partly Caucasoid (GREEN) and partly Mongoloid (RED). The only difference is that I thought that they were more Mongoloid than Caucasoid. But I made a mistake. According to the writers EHG was 57% Caucasoid and 43% Mongoloid.

Fire Haired14
19-10-15, 05:44
@Goga,

Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.

arvistro
19-10-15, 07:37
@Goga,

Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.
I would not dismiss something just because Goga believes in it :D
At some point R lines did cross Iran, and it happened before arrival to East Europe. Iran is between Africa and Mal'ta.

Also arrival of R1a or R1b via Kazakhstan is not an invalid proposal.

What matters more is when, and graph says 33 kya, which to me seems a bit early, but there is no adna that old from Ukraine to accept or dismiss.

Sile
19-10-15, 09:21
Thank you for this latest paper. As you can see even according to them there was East into West migration and not vice versa.

I like their map very much!


http://s24.postimg.org/gxu6b629h/Untitled.jpg

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/18/029421.figures-only



According to them the folks (GREEN European ancestors) from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Yamnaya via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan, before they later Indo-Europized the rest of Europe.

Like I said a couple of days ago it's possible that those folks were R1a and arrived in the stepped via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea, while R1b from the Iranian Plaeau arirved in Yamnaya via the Maykop civilization.


Both R1a and R1b are from the Iranian Plateau. But R1b entered the Steppes via Caucasus, while R1a entered the Steppes via Turkmenistan/Kazakhstan from Iran.



PS: Yo fellas, I told you so. No matter how much some folks try to change history, this is how it was and you can't change it. The more you try, the more you FAIL......



its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus river

LumiBardha
19-10-15, 15:31
Since we are speaking about east Asian ancestry.A question about Haplogroups but first a little background. My parents are Albanians who lived in Montenegro. My fathers family tree reaches back at least 200+ years. My moms is just here say, great grandparents and what not, I know all of my relatives (there are way too many) I know I had multiple uncles from her side that disappeared during the Balkan wars. Anyway, I received my 23andme results yesterday. My fathers side is no shocker I am of the EV13 branch. However, My mothers side came out to be D4J! I know these Haplogroups reach wayyyy back in history and it really has nothing to do with any relative that I would know. however the only thing I know about this group is that it is of East Asian decent. Which is shocking to me, could this be a mistake? Thank you!

bicicleur
19-10-15, 16:51
its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus river

yes, and furthermore it totally ignores the fact that Siberia was almost depopulated during LGM

Goga
19-10-15, 17:56
yes, and furthermore it totally ignores the fact that Siberia was almost depopulated during LGM
No, it doesn't ignore anything. It's from this study, did you read it?

As you can see RED in Siberia that migrated into Yellow: Mansi, Khanty, Nenets areas which is ancestral to EHG for about 4.9 - 7.1 thousands of years ago.

East Siberian auDNA was formed in NorthEast China for about 10 thousands of years ago and than migrated into the Steppes.

Goga
19-10-15, 17:59
its a rubbish map..............where is the split of K2 and K1 groups from F

I and J is wrong when its recently noted that they split apart from each other on the indus riverNo, you're wrong.

Y-DNA haplogroup IJK was ancestral to IJ and K. Haplogroup K was split from the archaic hg. IJK somewhere in West Asia. K2 was from K.


from wiki
http://s24.postimg.org/9xof8p4l1/123.jpg

Goga
19-10-15, 18:05
@Goga,

Those migration routes are guesses and nothing else. Stop with the ethnocentrism. Everything doesn't come from West Asia.
This map is from this most recent study. You don't like this study because it breaks your fantasy and bring you into the reality again. I noticed that you ignore all scientific studies that don't fit your fantasy.

It's how it is. It has nothing to do with ethnocentrism. If you don't like the reality it's not my fault.

West Asia is the centum of the ancient world. It's a crossroad between African, Europe, SouthEast Asia, Central Asia & East Asia (the Steppes) etc. Of course most important migrations happened through West Asia. Nothing to do with centrism, but LOCATION...



POWER to the science!

Angela
19-10-15, 18:56
I'm not familiar with this group, and it may turn out that their analysis of the data is not totally correct, but I don't know that I'd be tossing out words like rubbish. If nothing else, it seems that Pickrell had quite a bit of input.

One thing that initially threw me a bit was that the authors repeatedly made comments to the effect that the EHG had large amounts of Mansi admixture and that it can be found in virtually all eastern hunters, including the Gamba sample. (which is surprising given that he was basically WHG, wasn't he? My understanding was that the Mansi and other Western Siberian groups were relatively "new" admixed groups. (Was that in fact the general view up until now?)

It's quite an about face to comments that could be interpreted to mean that the Mansi are some sort of relict population that fed into these almost as ancient Eastern hunter gatherers. When I re-read more carefully it seems that perhaps they are talking about a "Mansi-like" population or even that they mean that populations similar to the populations that formed the Mansi also fed into the Eastern Hunter-Gatherers? The two populations would be "Western Siberian like", and "Eastern Siberian like"? The language isn't clear. On balance perhaps they just mean a "Mansi like" group that had both Western Siberian and Eastern Siberian affinities.

It would certainly explain the EDAR in the SHG and in two of the Abanasievo samples.

This is a relevant passage: "demonstrated strong admixtures between Mansi and nearly all hunter-gatherers from Eastern Europe, particularly for Samara and Karelia samples. Slightly weaker, but significant affinities were present between Eastern Siberian Even and Eastern European hunter-gatherers. This was consistent with Mansi carrying Even-related admixture, which also permeated into ancient European populations. Yamnaya samples also showed statistically significant admixtures with Mansi and Even, but weaker compared to Samara HG,which indicates further dilution of eastern hunter-gatherer ancestry component of Yamnaya culture samples."

The signal was diluted in the Yamnaya presumably because of their "Near Eastern" ancestry.
.
There's also this:
"Since Mansi-related admixtures are detectable within an ancient individual, who lived 8-6.6 kya, the ANE-related ancestry among Eastern European hunter gatherers could be attributed to gene flows into population ancestral to Mansi and Eastern European hunter-gatherers that occurred before 6,600 years ago. Siberians also shared part of their ancestry with Pitted Ware Culture (PWC), 5,000-year-oldhunter-gatherers from SwedenIre8 and Ajv5233, Ajv52 and particularly Ire8 had strong admixture signals with Western Siberians Mansi (Fig. 5e, Supplementary Fig. 17b), suggesting that like the closely related Yamnaya culture, they had strong ANE ancestries likely due to admixtures with Mansi-related populations. Siberians also shared part of their ancestry with Pitted Ware Culture (PWC) 5,00-yearold hunter-gatherers from Sweden..."

Another very interesting thing is that they tie the ANE gene flow only to N.

As Kristina said, that seems a bit of a leap. It also raises the obvious question, which is what about "R", particularly in light of the fact that Mal'ta, who serves as the ANE reference sample, is "R"?

Do they know something we don't know? Are they just reluctant to say anything definitive about "R" until those ancient Caucasus samples are released? Or are they just jumping to conclusions a bit?

Sile
19-10-15, 20:01
No, you're wrong.

Y-DNA haplogroup IJK was ancestral to IJ and K. Haplogroup K was split from the archaic hg. IJK somewhere in West Asia. K2 was from K.


from wiki
http://s24.postimg.org/9xof8p4l1/123.jpg

in 5 = Haplogroup LT (L298/P326) is also known as Haplogroup K1...................K1a = L and K1b = T

this is the split of K group (K1 and K2)

see notes to numbers at bottom of the link where you got the chart

Goga
19-10-15, 20:16
in 5 = Haplogroup LT (L298/P326) is also known as Haplogroup K1...................K1a = L and K1b = T

this is the split of K group (K1 and K2)

see notes to numbers at bottom of the link where you got the chartYes, but you said that K was from F, while K is actually from IJK.

K1 (L & T) could be native to Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau), North of Indus Valley. But you can't say that about Y-DNA hg. IJK. There is no native hg. I or even hg. J in SouthCentral Asia. So I don't think that IJK evolved somewhere in SouthCentral Asia. They found more basal hg. IJ in Persia...


Ps. Your hg. T could enter Europe together with hg. I thousands of years ago...

Sile
19-10-15, 20:23
Yes, but you said that K was from F, while K is actually from IJK.

K1 (L & T) could be native to Gedrosia (Iranian Plateau), North of Indus Valley. But you can't say that about Y-DNA hg. IJK. There is no native hg. I in SouthCentral Asia. So I don't think that IJK evolved somewhere in SouthCentral Asia. They found more basal IJ in Persia...

IJ in maybe eastern Persia , especially since the latest gypsy/roma paper has many many I and J old markers found there. where is south-central asia in regards to genetics?

as for K1 , I guess it can be there , but I have thought of it being between ancient bactria and the pamir mountains ..........

as for me as you noted.....with 99.4% european I guess I arrived in late bronze age into europe, or earlier, like neolithic as per KAR6 and KAR16A in central Germany

Goga
19-10-15, 20:36
as for K1 , I guess it can be there , but I have thought of it being between ancient bactria and the pamir mountains ..........

as for me as you noted.....with 99.4% european I guess I arrived in late bronze age into europe, or earlier, like neolithic as per KAR6 and KAR16A in central Germany
For me, SouthCentral Asia could be Kashmir or northeast Pakistan & southeastern Afghanistan, that region.



Haplogroups I and even your T(1a) can be very ancient to Europe. It could enter Europe thousands years earlier than the Bronze Age. Hg. T can be very well just native to the ancient Romans and as native to Europe as I1.


Other possiblity is that T1a entered Europe together with hg. J2 & R1b with the Indo-European speakers who settled down around the Yamnaya horizon.


OR from the Iranic folks like Sarmatians, Alans who fought in the Roman army for the Roman Emperor

bicicleur
19-10-15, 21:05
No, it doesn't ignore anything. It's from this study, did you read it?

As you can see RED in Siberia that migrated into Yellow: Mansi, Khanty, Nenets areas which is ancestral to EHG for about 4.9 - 7.1 thousands of years ago.

East Siberian auDNA was formed in NorthEast China for about 10 thousands of years ago and than migrated into the Steppes.


no I didn't read the study, but I will

on the map, the only fixed positions are the green dots
then they drew a tree roughly coming out of Africa and arriving at the green dots, without taking much care about the intermediate positions, which they don't know

Fire Haired14
19-10-15, 21:08
This map is from this most recent study. You don't like this study because it breaks your fantasy and bring you into the reality again. I noticed that you ignore all scientific studies that don't fit your fantasy.

My fantasy? Maybe I had a fantasy like 2 years ago, but I don't any more. I just like learning about genetics, even Chinese or Papuan or whatever, I don't care. Of course I'm more into something that relates to me or predominate people in my world but that doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't support Steppe-migration theory because it's my fantasy. I support it because it's basically been proven correct with Ancient DNA. Gene-flow went from Ukraine area all the way to India, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Iraq in the Bronze age. Arguable there's Steppe-ancestry in every part of West Asia via migrations that could have brought R1b-Z2103 and lots of ANE.


It's how it is. It has nothing to do with ethnocentrism. If you don't like the reality it's not my fault.

Maybe I miss read you or maybe I didn't. Sometimes I make wrong assumptions about people. I'm going to stop accusing people of bad behavior.


West Asia is the centum of the ancient world. It's a crossroad between African, Europe, SouthEast Asia, Central Asia & East Asia (the Steppes) etc. Of course most important migrations happened through West Asia. Nothing to do with centrism, but LOCATION...

I agree at some point all Eurasians ancestors lived in West Asia. After that though West Asia is one of many regions inhabited by humans in Eurasia. Migration of ideas, genes, whatever can go in any direction. I guess West Asia is sort of in the middle and can distribute across the rest of the world. Early civilizations began in West Asia, but that's probably coincidence. Doesn't make the region special.

Goga
19-10-15, 21:40
My fantasy? Maybe I had a fantasy like 2 years ago, but I don't any more. I just like learning about genetics, even Chinese or Papuan or whatever, I don't care. Of course I'm more into something that relates to me or predominate people in my world but that doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't support Steppe-migration theory because it's my fantasy. I support it because it's basically been proven correct with Ancient DNA. Gene-flow went from Ukraine area all the way to India, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Iraq in the Bronze age. Arguable there's Steppe-ancestry in every part of West Asia via migrations that could have brought R1b-Z2103 and lots of ANE.
Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?

Goga
19-10-15, 21:48
no I didn't read the study, but I will

on the map, the only fixed positions are the green dots
then they drew a tree roughly coming out of Africa and arriving at the green dots, without taking much care about the intermediate positions, which they don't knowAre you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?

holderlin
19-10-15, 23:38
Are you blinded with tears by the stream from the Iranian Plateau into Yamnaya where ' Europeans ' is written?

Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.

Goga
19-10-15, 23:45
Dude they also have it at 33kya which has no bearing on PIE but I know you don't care about these minor details. This would be like a Gravettian argument, which I would get if you changed the question.Dude, are you the same as Fire Haired? If so, double accouts are not allowed.


It says that than Yamnaya is between 5.3 - 4.7 k years old. Folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon. It says that folks who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon lived on the Iranian Plateau for at least 30 k years. SO those who migrated into Yamnaya were native to the Iranian Plateau. Read the paper.


And the paper doesn't speak about Indo-Europeans but just Europeans. Indo-Europeans could come into Yamnaya from the Maykop with R1b.

Fire Haired14
20-10-15, 02:52
Lmao, can you provide me a study about this? Steppes as PIE urheimat is fantasy, science-fiction. I read at least 10 scientific studies very recently where the denounce west to east steppe migration fantasy. There are no Ukrainian genes in India at all. There is no I2a or N1c1 in India. there is not much of EHG in India, but India has lot's of West Asian DNA, haplogroups and auDNA. R1a-Z93 in India is from BMAC. Either you're not very smart or you act dumb on purpose. This study we are discuss is saying that there was east to west migration and not vice versa. As you can see GREEN entered Yamnaya from the Iranian Plateau. Europeans who arrived in Yamnaya Horizon came from the Iranian Plateau as this SCIENTIFIC paper is claiming. You do know that me as a Kurd, native to West Asia, have much more ANE in me than people in Ukraine?

Maybe I'll read the paper later. I have lots of doubts about it. You having lots of ANE could have a million differnt origins. I don't see what your people's ANE proves.

I agree India has lots of West Asian ancestry. They also have some European ancestry(which is about 50% West Asian), probably less, but still some. Davidski has shown Bronze age Steppe people are a better proxy for the West Eurasian ancestry of SC Asians than any West Asians are. You don't see N1c1 and I2a in India because Sintashta, Snrbya(spelling?), and Andronovo had R1a-Z93.

bicicleur
20-10-15, 09:14
can somebody explain me what MSMC analysis is?

bicicleur
20-10-15, 14:24
the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA

mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women














Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv cemetery, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




A
2 samples 16223T, 16290T, 16319A
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




D
2 samples 16223T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




F
2 samples 16232A, 16249C, 16304C, 16311C
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




G2a
16223T, 16227G, 16278T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




U5a
2 samples 16256T, 16270T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


























Russia
Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44]
M
5650-5555 BC
R1b1a
M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-
U5a1d


Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015);Sergey Malyshev (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_23.06.2015.pdf); Mathieson 2015




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 43 and 45]


7500 BP




U2e
2 samples 16129C, 16189C, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 16 and 40]


7500 BP




U4
2 samples 16093C, 16356C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 70]


7500 BP




U5a
19192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16318G
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 77]


7500 BP




H?
16235G, 16311C, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 7 and 8]


7500 BP




C1g
Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014. 2 samples
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013); Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0061/UzOO 74]
M
5500-5000 BC
R1a1*
M459+, Page65.2+, M515-, M198-, M512-, M514-, L449-
C1g
Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014.
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013); Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015); Mathieson 2015




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0211/UzOO 40]
M
5500-5000 BC
J
PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291
U4a


Mathieson 2015


























Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-3, 57-1]


3500 BP




U4a1
2 samples 16093C, 16129A, 16311C, 16356C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-1, 72-11]


3500 BP




U5a
2 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-9, 72-10, 72-14, 78-8]


3500 BP




U5a1
4 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-4]


3500 BP




T*
16093C, 16126C, 16294T
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-2, 49-4, 57-3, 72-2, 72-7, 72-12]


3500 BP




C*
6 samples 16223T, 16298C, 16327C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-5, 72-6]


3500 BP




C5
2 samples 16148T, 16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16311C, 16327C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-6, 72-13, 72-15]


3500 BP




D*
3 samples 16223T, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-5, 72-3]


3500 BP




Z1a
2 samples 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-1]


3500 BP




Z1a
16129A, 16155G, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)














Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 54]
M
5616–5482 BC




[T?
16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 36]
M
5557–4792 BC




H
16320T, coding region indicating H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 45]
M
5471–5223 BC




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T , coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 64]
M
5479–5064 BC




H
rCRS, -7025AluI
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 19]
F
5474–5225 BC




U3
16343G, coding region indicating U/K
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 17]


5437–5090 BC




[?
16241. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 34]


5323–4941 BC




C4a2
16223T, 16298C, 16327T, 16357C, coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 32]
M
undated




[T
16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 57]


undated




[H
16241, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Dereivka [DD 33]


5000 BC




[H
16311, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Nikolskoye [Ni 58]
M
undated




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T + coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Nikolskoye [Ni 94]
F
5358–4993 BC




U5a1a
16256T, 16270T, 16356C, coding region U/K
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)
























Körös
Hungary
Vörs 52


5500 BC




C5
16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16327T
Guba 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Guba2011)

bicicleur
20-10-15, 14:56
more of it :

























Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 2]


4000-3000 BC




U2e
16129C, 16189C
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 12, Ut 16]


4000-3000 BC




U2e
2 samples of 16129C, 16189C, 16246G
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 3]


4000-3000 BC




D
16223T, 16362C
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 4, 7, 16 and 37]


4000-3000 BC




C
4 samples of 16223T, 16298C, 16327T
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 5 and 38]


4000-3500 BC




A10*
2 samples of 663G, 16148T, 16223T, 16227C, 16290T, 16311C, 16319A
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012);Pilipenko 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Pilipenko2015)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 9]


4000-3000 BC




U5a1
16192T, 16256T, 16270T
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 14]


4000-3000 BC




U5a1
16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16318
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 19]


4000-3000 BC




U4
16356C
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 31 and 32]


4000-3000 BC




Z
2 samples of 16185T, 16223T, 16260T, 16298C, 16300G
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Ust-Tartas
Russia
Sopka [Ut 33 and 34]


4000-3000 BC




Z
2 samples of 16185T, 16223T, 16260T, 16298C, 16298C
Molodin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Molodin2012)


Novosvobodnaya
Russia
Klady


3500 BC




V7
T72C, A93G, C2515T, G9378A, C9541T, C11018T, A11720G, C11723T, G12851A, A14906G, A15302G, C15477T
Nedoluzhko 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nedoluzhko2014)
























Odinovo
Russia
Sopka-2/4a [Krz1]


2300-2100 BC




A10a
663G, 16223T, 16227C, 16230G, 16290T, 16311C, 16319A
Pilipenko 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Pilipenko2015)


Odinovo
Russia
Preobrajenka- 6 [Od7 and Od11]


2300-2000 BC




A10*
2 samples 663G, 16223T, 16227C, 16290T, 16311C, 16319A
Pilipenko 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Pilipenko2015)
























Potapovka
Russia
Utyevka VI, Samara River, Samara [I0246/SVP 41]
M
2469-1928 BC
P1
P284
C1


Mathieson 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mathieson2015)
























Mezocsat
Hungary
Ludas-Varju-dulo [IR1]Light brown/ dark blond hair, brown eyes
M
980-930 BC
N
22665262G, 15469724A
G2a1


Gamba 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Gamba2014)

Angela
20-10-15, 15:08
In many cases mtDna composition is going to tell you a lot more about the autosomal make up of a group of people than the yDna.

Has anyone figured out how to interpret the admxture in the EHG with regard to the Mansi? The Mansi are clearly a mix of Western Siberian and Eastern Siberian, yes?

bicicleur
20-10-15, 15:29
IMO it is like the 'teal' component in Yamnaya which looks like modern Armenian DNA

the admixture into EHG looks like Mansi, but Mansi was formed at the same time or even later than EHG

Goga
20-10-15, 15:34
Maybe I'll read the paper later. I have lots of doubts about it. You having lots of ANE could have a million differnt origins. I don't see what your people's ANE proves.

I agree India has lots of West Asian ancestry. They also have some European ancestry(which is about 50% West Asian), probably less, but still some. Davidski has shown Bronze age Steppe people are a better proxy for the West Eurasian ancestry of SC Asians than any West Asians are. You don't see N1c1 and I2a in India because Sintashta, Snrbya(spelling?), and Andronovo had R1a-Z93.ANE has been native to West Asia for a very long time. Older than in Europe.

Exactly, that's why R1a-Z93 in Andronovo is from the Iranian Plateau and not from the western Steppes. There'are no ancient native European haplogroups in the eastern Steppes in Central Asia. There's are scientific studies about it. BMAC is older than Sintashta, Andronovo etc.

Sintashta, Andronovo etc. has nothing to do with migration into India. Folks from BMAC migrated into India. This is a fact.



Davidski is a moron. As a Polish idiot (durak) he lives in his own dream world and tries everything to show that PIE-folks were like Polish folks. He can spend his whole life to proven it, but he will never succeed. Because he lives in a dream world and supports something what never was the case. And in those cases I do call fellas like him as 'natural born losers'.

arvistro
20-10-15, 17:18
"mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women"
"the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA"
---->
Amazon potteresses from Syberia brought ANE to local R1a boys.

Angela
20-10-15, 17:49
IMO it is like the 'teal' component in Yamnaya which looks like modern Armenian DNA

the admixture into EHG looks like Mansi, but Mansi was formed at the same time or even later than EHG

Well, it's admixture so not quite the same as the stats that came up with "Armenian like", but I get your point.

However, even if the population was just "Mansi-like", wouldn't that still mean that the population that formed part of the EHG "ethnogenesis" had ENA affinities? How does that square with all the amateur analysis that says there isn't any?

holderlin
20-10-15, 18:23
can somebody explain me what MSMC analysis is?

http://www.ashg.org/2013meeting/abstracts/fulltext/f130120703.htm

holderlin
20-10-15, 19:19
Dude, are you the same as Fire Haired? If so, double accouts are not allowed.


It says that than Yamnaya is between 5.3 - 4.7 k years old. Folks from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon. It says that folks who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon lived on the Iranian Plateau for at least 30 k years. SO those who migrated into Yamnaya were native to the Iranian Plateau. Read the paper.


And the paper doesn't speak about Indo-Europeans but just Europeans. Indo-Europeans could come into Yamnaya from the Maykop with R1b.

Fire Haired is much nicer than me, and smarter.

No one's ever disputed that R1-a/b could have arisen on the Iranian plateau, nor was it ever discounted that Iranian plateau is a likely source of the West Asian admixture that we begin to see on the steppe by 5000BC. At this early date it's a much more likely source than The Caucuses.

As to ascribing PIE to BMAC or whatever it is you mean when you say by "IE's moved onto the steppe", I don't know how these new results change the unlikelihood of this model. It's discounted for all the myriad of reasons people have already ran through countless times all over academia and on the internet. Indo-Iranian is downstream of PIE. This is known. There are a bunch of loanwords in Iranian/Aryan and Tocharian that are from a local substrate language, which is probably whatever the BMAC people spoke. And of course BMAC/Central Asian "urbanism" is too late for PIE, BMAC in no way possesses and of the marks of IE culture, BMAC would have had a word for camel for gods sake, but I digress..........

I guess I don't know what you're so excited about. I'm not surprised at old "mongloid" admixture in EHG if this turns out to actually be the case. MA-1 was in Siberia.

holderlin
20-10-15, 19:22
Actually the very early teal on the steppe helps to make sense of the freakishly early neolithic seen on the Volga. There seems to domestic livestock at least by 6000BC, which some people have trouble believing, but now that we see the beginnings of genetic contact with West Asia so early on this takes some of the strangeness away.

holderlin
20-10-15, 19:24
the first ANE admixture arrived in northeast Europe by mtDNA, not Y DNA

mtDNA haplogroups Z, C & D arrived with pottery for cooking from Siberia (not storage vessels as in SW Asia)
the pottery was probably made by women














Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv cemetery, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




A
2 samples 16223T, 16290T, 16319A
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




D
2 samples 16223T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




F
2 samples 16232A, 16249C, 16304C, 16311C
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




G2a
16223T, 16227G, 16278T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


Kitoi
Russia
Lokomotiv, Irkutsk


6125–4885 BC




U5a
2 samples 16256T, 16270T
Mooder 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Mooder2006)


























Russia
Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44]
M
5650-5555 BC
R1b1a
M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-
U5a1d


Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015);Sergey Malyshev (http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/aDNA_23.06.2015.pdf); Mathieson 2015




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 43 and 45]


7500 BP




U2e
2 samples 16129C, 16189C, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 16 and 40]


7500 BP




U4
2 samples 16093C, 16356C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 70]


7500 BP




U5a
19192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16318G
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 77]


7500 BP




H?
16235G, 16311C, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [UzOO 7 and 8]


7500 BP




C1g
Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014. 2 samples
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013); Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015)




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0061/UzOO 74]
M
5500-5000 BC
R1a1*
M459+, Page65.2+, M515-, M198-, M512-, M514-, L449-
C1g
Reported as C1f in Der Sarkissian 2014.
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013); Der Sarkissian 2014; Haak 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Haak2015); Mathieson 2015




Russia
Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov [I0211/UzOO 40]
M
5500-5000 BC
J
PF4521, F2114, CTS5934, CTS7028, CTS7229, FGC1599, YSC0000228, CTS11291
U4a


Mathieson 2015


























Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-3, 57-1]


3500 BP




U4a1
2 samples 16093C, 16129A, 16311C, 16356C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-1, 72-11]


3500 BP




U5a
2 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-9, 72-10, 72-14, 78-8]


3500 BP




U5a1
4 samples 16192T, 16256T, 16270T, 16399G
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-4]


3500 BP




T*
16093C, 16126C, 16294T
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-2, 49-4, 57-3, 72-2, 72-7, 72-12]


3500 BP




C*
6 samples 16223T, 16298C, 16327C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-5, 72-6]


3500 BP




C5
2 samples 16148T, 16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16311C, 16327C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-6, 72-13, 72-15]


3500 BP




D*
3 samples 16223T, 16362C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 49-5, 72-3]


3500 BP




Z1a
2 samples 16129A, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)




Russia
Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov [BOO 72-1]


3500 BP




Z1a
16129A, 16155G, 16185T, 16223T, 16224C, 16260T, 16298C
Der Sarkissian 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2011); Der Sarkissian 2013 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#DerSarkissian2013)














Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 54]
M
5616–5482 BC




[T?
16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 36]
M
5557–4792 BC




H
16320T, coding region indicating H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 45]
M
5471–5223 BC




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T , coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 64]
M
5479–5064 BC




H
rCRS, -7025AluI
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 19]
F
5474–5225 BC




U3
16343G, coding region indicating U/K
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 17]


5437–5090 BC




[?
16241. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 34]


5323–4941 BC




C4a2
16223T, 16298C, 16327T, 16357C, coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 32]
M
undated




[T
16294, 16296. Incomplete sequence. Excluded from Nikitin 2012]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Lillie 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lillie2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Yasinovatka [Ya 57]


undated




[H
16241, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Dereivka [DD 33]


5000 BC




[H
16311, -7025AluI. Excluded from Nikitin 2012; presumably among results which failed to replicate]
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Nikolskoye [Ni 58]
M
undated




C
16223T, 16298C, 16327T + coding region not H
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)


Dnieper-Donets
Ukraine
Nikolskoye [Ni 94]
F
5358–4993 BC




U5a1a
16256T, 16270T, 16356C, coding region U/K
Newton 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Newton2011);Nikitin 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Nikitin2012)
























Körös
Hungary
Vörs 52


5500 BC




C5
16223T, 16288C, 16298C, 16327T
Guba 2011 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Guba2011)



















ANE good cook wives theory.

bicicleur
20-10-15, 19:31
Well, it's admixture so not quite the same as the stats that came up with "Armenian like", but I get your point.

However, even if the population was just "Mansi-like", wouldn't that still mean that the population that formed part of the EHG "ethnogenesis" had ENA affinities? How does that square with all the amateur analysis that says there isn't any?

the Mansi originate from Siberia so the source of admixture to EHG would also be Siberian ..

do you mean ENA or ANE ?

Angela
21-10-15, 16:59
ANE good cook wives theory.

Charred, furry, polar bear on a stick? :grin:

See, my card carrying feminist friends would take offense at that, but not me; I'm a cultural dinosaur. I've found that good cooking keeps not only men, but children, friends and everybody else around, too much so sometimes. If you actually enjoy cooking, it's all good. :smile:

Seriously, I'm sure some brawny he-men brought them, but ylines seem to easily get "replaced", or at least that seems to be the recurring theme from some of these papers.

As to some of your comments upthread, you're probably not aware that there's a subtext here because there are indeed some people in the amateur community who have always vehemently denied, on "racial purity" grounds, that EHG have any ENA affinity. The analyses produced have seemed to support that opinion. The same group has also and continues to vehemently object to the idea that R1a/b might have arisen anywhere in the "dark" south of the Caucasus area. It is an article of faith that R arose in and always remained in the pristine, snow covered north.

Should the latter turn out to be the case, I expect a speedy pivot to a position that it doesn't really matter where they arose because
by the time you get to the downstream clades they were completely northern European.

Once you know the motivations, the arguments proposed make a lot more sense. Sad, but true.

bicicleur
21-10-15, 18:04
I wonder what they were cooking in these pots.
First pottery was invented in the swampy area south of the donwstream Yangtze river, China some 25 ka.
I guess it was for cooking shellfish.
Some 20 ka people arrived in Japan with pottery.
First evicence of collecting rice was just 14 ka in the Yangtze area.
Probably soon after they were cooking millet in northern China.
13 ka the pottery appeared in Manchuria and then spread across southern Siberia.
What they were cooking in Siberia, it is a mysterie.
Fish? Soup of seeds?

arvistro
21-10-15, 18:19
Magic mushrooms :)

Angela
21-10-15, 18:24
O.K., not charred, but boiled, and not Polar bear, but brown bear, and also the following...

"This region contains the highest number of brown bears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear) (Ursus arctos collaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Siberian_brown_bear)) and Eurasian wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_wolf) (Canis lupus) moose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose) (Alces alces) and wild reindeer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer) (Rangifer tarandus) in Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia). Further south mammals in the East Siberian taiga include Siberian musk deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_musk_deer) (Moschus moschiferus), wapiti also known as Asian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia) elk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk) (Cervus canadensis) and wild boar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_boar) (Sus scrofa). Birds of this ecoregion include the golden eagle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_eagle) (Aquila chrysaetos), peregrine falcon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_falcon) (Falco peregrinus), osprey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osprey) (Pandion haliaetus), black stork (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_stork) (Pandion haliaetus), hooded crane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooded_crane) (Grus monacha), carrion crow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrion_crow) (Corvus corone), the Siberian blue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_blue_robin) and rufous-tailed robins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufous-tailed_robin) (Luscinia cyane and L. sibilans, respectively), the thrush nightingale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrush_nightingale) (Luscinia luscinia), Pallas's rosefinch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallas%27s_rosefinch) (Carpodacus roseus), Pacific swift (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_swift) (Apus pacificus) and Baikal teal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal_teal) (Anas formosa)."

Siberia may have been a little light on grasses and seeds to thicken it. We eat a lot of pine nuts, but I don't know much about the varieties there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flora_of_Siberia

Ed. Now, with wild boar, mushrooms, magic or not, some pine nuts and some herbs I think I could come up with something decent. :smile: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flora_of_Siberia)

arvistro
21-10-15, 18:38
Then there is buckwheat in Finland claim:
'Buckwheat is documented in Europe in Finland by at least 5300 BCE [6] as a first sign of agriculture" (wiki on buckwheat history).

LeBrok
22-10-15, 03:39
Then there is buckwheat in Finland claim:
'Buckwheat is documented in Europe in Finland by at least 5300 BCE [6] as a first sign of agriculture" (wiki on buckwheat history).
I love buckwheat!

arvistro
22-10-15, 07:43
I love buckwheat!
Me too. But to be honest scientists are still rather cautious how to interpret results.

It looks like buckwheat did not survive long, one hint is linguistic.
Balts and Slavs call buckwheat Greek (griķi, grechka), so it would be (re-?)introduced by Greeks to Slavs and mediated to Balts.
Also Finns and Estonians did not have local name and call it Tatar (tatar, tattari) as if mediated by Tatars.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 08:33
Me too. But to be honest scientists are still rather cautious how to interpret results.

It looks like buckwheat did not survive long, one hint is linguistic.
Balts and Slavs call buckwheat Greek (griķi, grechka), so it would be (re-?)introduced by Greeks to Slavs and mediated to Balts.
Also Finns and Estonians did not have local name and call it Tatar (tatar, tattari) as if mediated by Tatars.

well, they were other people 5300 BC, Balts, Slavs they didn't exist yet.
how would they have prepared buckwheat? as a porridge?

holderlin
22-10-15, 08:43
Charred, furry, polar bear on a stick? :grin:

See, my card carrying feminist friends would take offense at that, but not me; I'm a cultural dinosaur. I've found that good cooking keeps not only men, but children, friends and everybody else around, too much so sometimes. If you actually enjoy cooking, it's all good. :smile:

Seriously, I'm sure some brawny he-men brought them, but ylines seem to easily get "replaced", or at least that seems to be the recurring theme from some of these papers.

As to some of your comments upthread, you're probably not aware that there's a subtext here because there are indeed some people in the amateur community who have always vehemently denied, on "racial purity" grounds, that EHG have any ENA affinity. The analyses produced have seemed to support that opinion. The same group has also and continues to vehemently object to the idea that R1a/b might have arisen anywhere in the "dark" south of the Caucasus area. It is an article of faith that R arose in and always remained in the pristine, snow covered north.

Should the latter turn out to be the case, I expect a speedy pivot to a position that it doesn't really matter where they arose because
by the time you get to the downstream clades they were completely northern European.

Once you know the motivations, the arguments proposed make a lot more sense. Sad, but true.

Its funny how people's ego could distract them from how amazing it is that right now we're uncovering data that recreates history itself. Everything that has already amazed you is being rewritten.

It's sort of the inverse of teal wives is why I like it. So MA-1 would have to be after "ANE" mtDNA combination. So if it holds, people who brag about ANE are bragging about part "mongoloid" female line ancestry.

And hey, babes...... I'm just saying it's cold up there. I'll gladly clean up my dwelling and entertain some monglettes if it means some awesome stew served in high quality dishes. We met them at the moot festival, bragged about all our meat and they were all like, "so who are you guys again?" and we were all like "you don't even know babe." and acted all tough and they bought into it then came over.

They cleaned too, then me and mah boys escorted them back to their manless camp and fought off several wild animals along the way. To thank them for doing dishes while we argued about rope knots.

arvistro
22-10-15, 09:23
There is nothing wrong with part Mongoloid female ancestry. We have such girls (blondes and not so blondes with slight Saami features) and they look really charming.

But then there is a question about WHG/ANE rich R1a boys captured from Karelia to Belarus. If they got their ANE from lovely Easternesses, then were they WHG themselves? That would turn upside down what I think of R1a.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 09:24
wasn't MA-1 100 % ANE ? I don't recall exactly.
but then other LGM survivors (Q1a) in southern Siberia would have been ANE as well.
and then they transferred it to the incoming N1a and N1c from Manchuria
and so it seeped further west into Europe

bicicleur
22-10-15, 09:31
There is nothing wrong with part Mongoloid female ancestry. We have such girls (blondes and not so blondes with slight Saami features) and they look really charming.

But then there is a question about WHG/ANE rich R1a boys captured from Karelia to Belarus. If they got their ANE from lovely Easternesses, then were they WHG themselves? That would turn upside down what I think of R1a.

I think Mongoloid features existed in C2 tribes (mainly C2b) , the base of the 12th century Mongols who came to rule (and often terrorise) over southern Siberia and many other parts of Eurasia untill the Russians got firearms and equiped their allied Kozhaks with them.

I don't know, did original Kozakhs have Mongol features too? Weren't they Turkic in origin? I suppose they mixed with wives in conquered territories.

Alan
22-10-15, 11:14
It isn't often that I and David agree 100% but this time definitely. The papers usage of wording is so confusing and they often contradict not only themselves but also known science(Northeast Europeans being close to East Eurasians than mainland Europeans really?) It really seems like those "Russian" scientist try to find as hard as possible a Siberian proxy population which beats Amerindians in their ANE scores.

They call the Mansi, not even something like "Proto Mansi" but modern Mansi ANE source population. They claim the first ANE came in combination with East Eurasian admixture but completely ignore the fact that Mal'ta didn't show any affinities to East Eurasian components. Not only that they also failed to explain how there is ANE in Yamna, Corded Ware and SHG without any evidence of East Eurasian admixture.

We have in the Near East populations such as Assyrians with zero East Eurasian admixture but over 13% ANE. Those are too many factors speaking against their Mansi theory.

Also if you take a look at Mansi y and mtDNA they have like 55% West Eurasian mtDNA and >25% yDNA.

Mansi as a Ugric speaking population (whoms ethnogenesis by the way can't be older than some thousand years) are said to be ancestral to Mal'ta(20000 years) according to this paper.

Sorry but I stopped reading about it here. If anything Mansi represents a Population mix of a ANE like group which was absorbed into an East Eurasian like group.

The point is that Mal'ta predates Mansi and its genetic components are much closer to each other (as it should be) however with Mansi we are dealing with a population which is, a two way mix of East Eurasian and ANE admixture, Those components are quite distant. Based on fst distance and ancestral tree ANE and UHG/WHG are allot closer to each other anyways. So there is absolutely no way that ANE might have arisen, together with a component it is more distinct from, in a modern population which obviously has mixed ancestry.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

Alan
22-10-15, 11:37
That most modern populations with ANE display some Mongoloid type features doesn't necessary mean it is connect to their ANE ancestry. More rather that Mongoloid type ancestry took over former ANE land, which obviously seems to be correct if you look at the history of these regions.

Contrary if you just pay close attention and compare the "East Eurasian" groups with more ANE to East Eurasian populations with less, one thing falls into the eye. Those groups with more ANE display more of the "pseudo" Caucasoid features than those with non or less.

Didn't most of the people and even scientist bet and said that the Kennewick man is going to turn out as West Eurasian autosomally because physically he looked so Caucasoid? Turns out he is closest match to Amerindians. Why does an ancient Amerindian individual looks so much Caucasian compared to modern East Eurasians? Is it a because of their Han like ancestry they share with East Eurasians or B because of their ANE ancestry they also share with West Eurasian populations? Isn't the answer obvious? Just take a look at modern Amerindians, why is it that even isolated Amerindian groups and even Native Americans of old images look to have much more Caucasoid physical features (high nose bridge no Epicanthic fold), DESPITE ~40-50% of their ancestry being actually East Eurasians, compared to modern East Eurasians? Now imagine a full blooded ANE population, Is this also just coincidence? Obviously regarding ANE , we are dealing here with a predominantly West Eurasian like population which was mixed or absorbed by a Han like group in most of Eurasia. Alone this is enough for me to come to the conclusion that Mansi can never be a source population of ANE. But even them display signficantly more Caucasoid features compared to Han Chinese for example. This is no coincidence but fits with their East and West Eurasian mixed origin based on y and mtDNA as well aDNA (ANE vs Han Chinese like ancestry)

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Kennewick-Man.jpg?itok=wYLonr6E

http://www.imageblogs.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/american-native-in-ancient-days-13.jpg


Older Mansi People
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lyFo8mJeGMk/U7_0rotpKPI/AAAAAAAA48o/0ZMB9H2etBA/s1600/1lZBHMz1Zs8.jpg

arvistro
22-10-15, 11:49
Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.

Alan
22-10-15, 12:31
Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.



That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.

http://aminus3.s3.amazonaws.com/image/g0033/u00032483/i01548735/9c8b11b631e282c933b3bbae8c824f57_large.jpg
http://tns.thenews.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSC_3557.jpghttp://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/c01/612/kalash-young-woman-chitral.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/3b/11/cd3b11efcf8dae02ef70c25b15dca91f.jpghttps://40.media.tumblr.com/d2090f11e2681a82eb7613f41ac0a812/tumblr_mn1x2lDOxC1s31lllo1_400.jpg

arvistro
22-10-15, 13:08
I guess, it is because y-dna tree goes like this under "F":
G is first to branch off. Then H.
Then IJ.
Then K
Then K(xLT) goes into brothers NO and P (Q, R).

Now for P to be closer to IJ than to NO, we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone, whilst P would stay close to IJ and interact with them. Probably this is what happened if you say ANE is closer to WHG than <what three letters I can use for East Eurasian?>.

Kristiina
22-10-15, 15:05
[we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone>.[/QUOTE]

Arvistro, so, in your opinion, where is this isolated place to which NO went to hide in order to obtain these hideous features, and from whom did NO get these features or do you think that they happened because of a strange series of mutations?

In my opinion NO has nothing to do with the so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos.

arvistro
22-10-15, 15:28
[we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone>.

Arvistro, so, in your opinion, where is this isolated place to which NO went to hide in order to obtain these hideous features, and from whom did NO get these features or do you think that they happened because of a strange series of mutations? [/QUOTE]
I don't know where they hid. Somewhere South-East Asia I guess. That is if they did hide :)
As to other question. It could be either mutations or something else. Don't know.



In my opinion NO has nothing to do with the so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos.
I am very open minded here. Only reason I went for it was because "NO" is very popular in nations that have East Asian. Like, for example, 90% in Han Chinese.

So, who then has something to do with so called East Asian in Amerinds and Eskimos and East Asia?

Alan
22-10-15, 15:55
I guess, it is because y-dna tree goes like this under "F":
G is first to branch off. Then H.
Then IJ.
Then K
Then K(xLT) goes into brothers NO and P (Q, R).

Now for P to be closer to IJ than to NO, we need NO to move somewhere far, isolate and drift alone, whilst P would stay close to IJ and interact with them. Probably this is what happened if you say ANE is closer to WHG than <what three letters I can use for East Eurasian?>.

Haplogroups do not correlate always perfectly with aDNA. They can only give you a glimpse of the reality. We have C subclades which are UHG/WHG and C subclades which are East Eurasian.

The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. So should there be any doubt?

arvistro
22-10-15, 16:02
Genetiker gives info that Ust Ishim guy was already K(x LT) - umbrella for NO + P. And it was on its way to NO.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/analyses-of-the-ust-ishim-genome/
Ust’-Ishim was male. His Y-SNP calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ust-ishim/) and mt-SNP calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/mt-snp-calls-for-ust-ishim/) confirm the published findings that he belonged to Y haplogroup K(xLT) and mitochondrial haplogroup R. Ust’-Ishim also had positive calls for Z4842/M2308 and CTS11667, two of the seven mutations that define Y haplogroup X. Haplogroup X is ancestral to haplogroup NO, the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup.

Ust Ishim guy was like 45,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. North of Kazakhstan, Omsk region. Y-dna K(xLT) on its way to NO.
Mal'ta guy was 24,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. Further East, Irkutsk region. Y-dna R*.

That gives plenty of time for a chaos of y-dna lines moving in all directions :)

Kristiina
22-10-15, 16:09
In my opinion, this idea of isolation is rubbish and reminds me of ET movies.

Native American yDNA is Q and C and these haplogroups or either of them must have carried ENA. There may have been an extinct "paleo-Melanesian" ENA yDNA which we may never discover, but it is also possible that the rare Peruvian C is a paleo-Melanesian remnant.

The Siberian paper says that "Nenets appear as an early diverging group related to other European populations. The tree model suggests that 43% (95% CI: 38-47%) of the Western Siberian ancestry can be attributed to an admixture with a group related to modern-day Evenki people. Furthermore, Nenets share 38% (95% CI: 31-46%) of their ancestry with a group related to Even people. Consistent with this prediction, we observed particularly high affinity between Mansi and Evenki as well as between Nenets and Even people based on the D-statistic."

So, in this context, also Even and Evenk yDNA should be considered.
All Evenks (127): yDNA C-M217 97/127, 76%; N1b 18/127, 14%; N1c 18/127 14%; I 5/127, 4%
All Even (89): yDNA C-M217 46/89, 52%; N1b 13/89 14.6%; N1c 30/89, 34%
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083570

As Uralic groups do not have any C-M217, there must have been a flow of N1c and N1b to Evens and Evenks, and as Evens and Evenks have almost entirely North East Asian mtDNA, this flow must have been mostly male-mediated. IMO, N1c and N1b spread from the forest Volga Ural to the East; at that time everybody in the forest Volga Ural surely carried a portion of ENA, maybe at 20-30% (including Karitiana).
I repeat that ENA people are very varied and it is completely unscientific and stupid to claim that certain undesirable ENA features could be "externalized" on NO-carrying men as if these traits could in some mysterious way be glued on yDNA.

arvistro
22-10-15, 16:12
The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. Are you doubting this?
Do you have some cross distance estimates for ANE, EEF, WHG, SSA and so on?

Alan
22-10-15, 16:18
Genetiker gives info that Ust Ishim guy was already K(x LT) - umbrella for NO + P. And it was on its way to NO.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/analyses-of-the-ust-ishim-genome/
Ust’-Ishim was male. His Y-SNP calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ust-ishim/) and mt-SNP calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/mt-snp-calls-for-ust-ishim/) confirm the published findings that he belonged to Y haplogroup K(xLT) and mitochondrial haplogroup R. Ust’-Ishim also had positive calls for Z4842/M2308 and CTS11667, two of the seven mutations that define Y haplogroup X. Haplogroup X is ancestral to haplogroup NO, the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup.

Ust Ishim guy was like 45,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. North of Kazakhstan, Omsk region. Y-dna K(xLT) on its way to NO.
Mal'ta guy was 24,000 years ago and was located in Syberia, Russia. Further East, Irkutsk region. Y-dna R*.

That gives plenty of time for a chaos of y-dna lines moving in all directions :)

The more you move up the yDNA tree the closer the autosomal components will get, that is the only logical explanation. Since at the end of the day all Haplogroups have a common ancestor. So must the aDNA components.

That means If you ever find an ancient IJK individual, this individual will be something like ANE/UHGWHG/East Eurasian AND significant Basal Eurasian, which is the non shifted ancestry it still shares with the same ancestor of 'H' and 'G'. And on the other side G and H will be Basal Eurasian with strong UHGWHG or ANE ancestry because it is so close to IJK on the ancestral tree.

This is why we have Mal'ta R*, which is just one step away from P*, that shows autosomaly most ancestry to West Eurasian with 2/3 and strong affinity to Amerindians with 1/3 (who are mostly Q Haplogroups which is the brotherclade of R by the way). Therefore if R Haplogroups close to Basal form show affinities to Amerindians and even Southeast Asians I am expecting that basal Q Haplogroups will also show strong affinities to West Eurasian type ancestry. It is not necessary admixture it is simply ancient shared ancestry.

This is why we are seing Basal EurasianaDNA in Kostenki who is NO. It is not admixture it is basically the remnant of ancient common ancestry.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 16:20
Haplogroups do not correlate always perfectly with aDNA. They can only give you a glimpse of the reality. We have C subclades which are UHG/WHG and C subclades which are East Eurasian.

The tree I posted is from Lazaridis paper. Lazaridis team and even other scientist wrote that ANE is closest to UHG/WHG Here labeled as "West Eurasian". Allot of Haplogroups are more than 40 to 50 thousand years old. So should there be any doubt?

what is UHG ?

arvistro
22-10-15, 17:10
I repeat that ENA people are very varied and it is completely unscientific and stupid to claim that certain undesirable ENA features could be "externalized" on NO-carrying men as if these traits could in some mysterious way be glued on yDNA.
So, to not externalize them on NO-carrying men, you are externalizing them on C carrying men :)))

Angela
22-10-15, 17:12
Since I realized that out of two Karelian EHGs one was Uralic looking person (the anthro description of sample that turned out R1a) and the other was (proto) Europoid (description of sample that turned out J*), I am no more sure if there is a big link between autosomal make-up and looks.

There has to be some link. I think the problem comes with expecting that there is going to be some perfect correspondence between percentage of a certain autosomal component and "phenotype".

It doesn't work that way because the alleles that determine phenotype are a very small set compared to the whole, and after a lot of admixture can become detached from the other alleles with which they were originally associated.

I see it all the time with African-Americans. Years ago I worked with a Jamaican woman who married a "white" American. Her daughter looked just like her and unmistakably African-American, the son looked like what Americans would see as "Hispanic" or mixed, and the daughter looked totally "white". It caused her more than a few problems in terms of identity issues, unfortunately. That's why in the past in these kinds of biracial families one child could "pass", but the others couldn't.

As regards ANE, didn't Russian scientists see what they called "Mongoloid like" features in Mal'ta, who is how we define ANE? IF that's true, then ANE type people might have carried those traits from the very beginning. For all we know those kinds of phenotypical traits might have been widespread but in varying degrees in all the ancient North Eurasian and ENA populations. Who says that they specifically originated in the Han, for example? That's a population that formed later where a certain combination of traits became fixed. I also don't know how we could possibly "pin" it on a certain y or mtDna. Those don't carry phenotypical alleles. It must have arisen in a group carrying certain uniparental markers, but I don't know how we'd go back and figure out which ones.

We also have the intriguing appearance of EDAR in the SHG. That might have been one of those widespread traits which were selected against in Europe but selected for, for some reason, in East Asia. Or, it might just be a question of drift. Still, who brought it? When?

Subsequent "Mongoloid" gene flow in quasi historical times is a totally separate issue. We're talking here about gene flow long before that time.

What I don't understand (and this is totally separate from "phentype" issues) is how the Admixture runs and other statistical analyses can show admixture of a "Mansi-like" population into the EHG (and they do sometimes call it a "Mansi-like" population), the Mansi are by definition both West Eurasian and East Eurasian as those terms are commonly understood today, and at the same time we have analyses that show EHG have no ENA affinity.

Perhaps someone can refresh my recollection as to whether Lazaridis et al or Haak et al or Allentoft et al, produced stats showing that ANE had no ENA affinity, or whether that was done by internet people.

For what it's worth, I don't find the reconstructions of the Jomon particularly "Caucasian" looking.
http://sites.psu.edu/hapadesu/wp-content/uploads/sites/9681/2014/03/f04da22dd51e11fdbb6a30.jpg

They look more like Polynesians:
http://www.nlkinfo.com/userfiles/image/P2260012.jpg

Whoa Nellie! Did I miss something? Who said they're "undesirable" traits? I guess I'd better go back and read the intervening posts. :)

Alan
22-10-15, 17:42
@Angela, thats just a reconstruction but people who are said to be descend of the Jomon as far as I remember, such as the Ainu despite being mixed with the Yaoyi have often very Caucasoid like features and they are autosomally East Eurasian.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/9d/9d/479d9d1461f9fa6312062b5ec4fc971f.jpghttp://www.jref.com/images/imported/2006/07/041105_2-1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gV9BkHYPSZk/T6h1fkzzyMI/AAAAAAAACSs/_Vdq-VFviBE/s1600/ainu-elder+Hokkaido+Japan.jpg


About the Mal'ta individual, Russian scientists assumed based on the location the individual was found (East Siberia/Mongolia) and the cranial (round/broad headed) that the individual must be mongoloid. Yet they didn't had any DNA back than. Reconstructions without DNA are always just to a point accurate. The cranial form of the individual flat or thin nose, everything else, such as if caucasoid or mongoloid broad faced, caucasoid or mongoloid wide nosed, eye color and hair colore are based on the artists imagination if their is no DNA to hand. We had this issue already various times, even with the Kennewick individual which some of it's earlier reconstructions looked absolutely Caucasoid but modern reconstructions look more borderline. All that can be said from the cranial is, that it is a round/broad headed individual just like most WHG cranials and East Eurasian cranials. With other words the individual could be anything from Kalash looking.
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/c01/612/elder-sajigor-village-man-chitral.jpg

to
East European looking
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3277&d=1259868782

to mongoloid looking
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2dtznkp.jpg


But don't you think it is too much of an coincidence that even Amerindians with the highest ANE ancestry have more Caucasoid features compared to EE?


@bicicleur

UHG is meant to be the Proto ancestor of WHG and the WHG like ancestry in EEF.

arvistro
22-10-15, 17:42
I dont think it is possible at all for ANE to lack ENA, since ENA is ANE + smthg? So modelling ANE as combination of something else it should come up as partly ENA by definition.

edit: unless I am totally mistaken. I have investigated very little in ENA to say the least.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 17:48
http://www.nlkinfo.com/userfiles/image/P2260012.jpg

Whoa Nellie! Did I miss something? Who said they're "undesirable" traits? I guess I'd better go back and read the intervening posts. :)

and then you just saw his face, you even didn't have the oportunity to look further down ;-)

Alan
22-10-15, 17:51
I dont think it is possible at all for ANE to lack ENA, since ENA is ANE + smthg? So modelling ANE as combination of something else it should come up as partly ENA by definition.

edit: unless I am totally mistaken. I have investigated very little in ENA to say the least.

I have yet to see ENA showing any ANE. That is just some rumor I have seen some people claim and I don't know on what they base it. The genetic break up of the Mal'ta genome was something like 30% North Euro, 30% Caucaso_Gedrosia(more Gedrosia), 30% Amerindian and ~10% ASI/Southeast Asian like but even this ASI/Southeast Asian can be explain by a very Kalash like population. Since they have some ~20% ASI.

With other words Mal'ta can be explained as ~60-70% Kalash like and 30-40% Amerindian like.

East Eurasian populations with no known West Eurasian, ASI/SEA or Amerindian ancestry score noisy percentage of ANE. Mongols score some significant ANE just because they have some West Eurasian ancestry but even them score only as much ANE as Assyrians! A population now living where Mal'ta was found has only as much ANE as Assyrians, Armenians and some Levantines, Imagine that!!

So how on earth can ANE have anything close to do with modern EE ancestry? I am not talking about more "distant" relationship of the components, obviously there is a relationship between ANE/UHGWHG and East Eurasian. But ENA does not contain any significant ANE.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kd9Q9vFrL1Cra9ayqMYVFKXrUdnThmQJVMtjczLhoTs/edit#gid=74932529

Kristiina
22-10-15, 17:56
So, to not externalize them on NO-carrying men, you are externalizing them on C carrying men :)))

Only in part! :), because I wrote that people in forest Volga Ural may have carried 20-30% ENA (including Karitiana)

Angela
22-10-15, 18:17
and then you just saw his face, you even didn't have the oportunity to look further down ;-)

That was the whole picture. Is there another full figure picture of him? Will I be embarrassed if I go looking for it?:ashamed2:

I think I'll pass. If full blood Hawaiians are any indication, he's typically Polynesian looking, and I'll leave it at that. :smile:

Angela
22-10-15, 18:31
@Angela, thats just a reconstruction but people who are said to be descend of the Jomon as far as I remember, such as the Ainu despite being mixed with the Yaoyi have often very Caucasoid like features and they are autosomally East Eurasian.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/9d/9d/479d9d1461f9fa6312062b5ec4fc971f.jpghttp://www.jref.com/images/imported/2006/07/041105_2-1.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gV9BkHYPSZk/T6h1fkzzyMI/AAAAAAAACSs/_Vdq-VFviBE/s1600/ainu-elder+Hokkaido+Japan.jpg


About the Mal'ta individual, Russian scientists assumed based on the location the individual was found (East Siberia/Mongolia) and the cranial (round/broad headed) that the individual must be mongoloid. Yet they didn't had any DNA back than. Reconstructions without DNA are always just to a point accurate. The cranial form of the individual flat or thin nose, everything else, such as if caucasoid or mongoloid broad faced, caucasoid or mongoloid wide nosed, eye color and hair colore are based on the artists imagination if their is no DNA to hand. We had this issue already various times, even with the Kennewick individual which some of it's earlier reconstructions looked absolutely Caucasoid but modern reconstructions look more borderline. All that can be said from the cranial is, that it is a round/broad headed individual just like most WHG cranials and East Eurasian cranials. With other words the individual could be anything from Kalash looking.
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/c01/612/elder-sajigor-village-man-chitral.jpg

to
East European looking
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3277&d=1259868782

to mongoloid looking
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2dtznkp.jpg


But don't you think it is too much of an coincidence that even Amerindians with the highest ANE ancestry have more Caucasoid features compared to EE?


@bicicleur

UHG is meant to be the Proto ancestor of WHG and the WHG like ancestry in EEF.

The Ainu, like any other modern population, are the result of various admixtures. They are not an unchanged relict of the Jomon. You can see the variation in the pictures you posted. Looking, for example, at the gentleman in the last picture, he doesn't look SSA, and he doesn't look modern Northeast Asian, but neither does he look Caucasian to me. As I said above, he looks much like what I would expect of a group that moved north from somewhere around southeast Asia.

However, these are all subjective determinations, so opinions will differ.

My main confusion is how can Admixture and other statistics posted in the paper and in the Supplement show influx of a Mansi like population into the EHG if EHG has no ENA affinities.

I was hoping someone had already checked all the stats and I wouldn't have to go back and pore over tables in Lazardis, Haak and Allentoft. :)

arvistro
22-10-15, 18:45
Ok, I confess I thought ENA is for something Syberian and then there was something else for Han. I was wrong and ENA is Eastern Non-African and apparently is an umbrella for everything Eurasian that does not fit EEF/WHG/ANE.

Ok, actually ENA is usually defined as Han, so them not having much of other admixtures including ANE is not much of a surprise :D

If, as a thought experiment, I defined East European (EAS) as Lithuanian, then I might find that Lithuanians are >90% EAS and lack WHG (EEF, ANE...) in any significant level :)

p.s.
Potentially I might even find that Belorussians, Latvians, Estonians and Poles lack WHG (EEF, ANE..) in any over noise levels too... since most of them would be eaten by EAS component.
Maybe some Southern European folk would show some combination of extra non-noise EEF in addition to EAS. But then you might say it is just because they have later admixture from Near East...

So, in general I am not convinced about Han not having ANE.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 19:10
The Ainu, like any other modern population, are the result of various admixtures. They are not an unchanged relict of the Jomon. You can see the variation in the pictures you posted. Looking, for example, at the gentleman in the last picture, he doesn't look SSA, and he doesn't look modern Northeast Asian, but neither does he look Caucasian to me. As I said above, he looks much like what I would expect of a group that moved north from somewhere around southeast Asia.

However, these are all subjective determinations, so opinions will differ.



Genetic testing has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D-M55 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D_(Y-DNA)#D-M55).[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-Tajima2004-50) Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Archipelago)including Okinawa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa). The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet) and the Andaman Islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andaman_Islands) in the Indian Ocean.[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-51)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Nivkhs_and_Ainu_men.jpg/170px-Nivkhs_and_Ainu_men.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nivkhs_and_Ainu_men.jpg)

1862 illustration of Ainu (left) and Nivkhs


In a study by Tajima et al. (2004), two out of a sample of sixteen (or 12.5%) Ainu men have been found to belong toHaplogroup C-M217 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M217_(Y-DNA)), which is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among the indigenous populations of Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia) andMongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia).[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-Tajima2004-50) Hammer et al. (2006) have tested a sample of four Ainu men and have found that one of them belongs to haplogroup C-M217.[52] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-Hammer2006-52) Some researchers have speculated that this minority of Haplogroup C-M217 carriers among the Ainu may reflect a certain degree of unidirectional genetic influence from the Nivkhs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nivkhs), a traditionally nomadic people of northern Sakhalin and the adjacent mainland, with whom the Ainu have long-standing cultural interactions.[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#cite_note-Tajima2004-50)

D-M55[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_D-M174&action=edit&section=7)]Found with high frequency among Ainu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people), Japanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people), and Ryukyuans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyuans).[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Also found with sporadically Micronesians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronesia), and Timorese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timor) and 0% to 0.2% among Han Chinese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese) in Jiangsu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangsu) .





It seems D-M55 is almost exclusively Japanese
IMO D-M55 was a tribe who used cooking pottery in the Yangtze delta that moved to the then uninhabited Japan 20 ka.
D-M55 is still the main component of HG Ainu who were practically the only inhabitants of Japan till the arrival of Yayoi rice farmers (Haplogroup O-47z) 2.3 ka

arvistro
22-10-15, 19:11
Ok, you are right
Similarly, we find autosomal evidence that MA-1 is basal to modern-day western Eurasians and genetically closely related to modern-day Native Americans, with no close affinity to east Asians.(Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans)
____________________________
But I still would like to see numbers. Distances of ANE to WHG, EEF, ENA, SSA... To see how big is the difference.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 19:12
That was the whole picture. Is there another full figure picture of him? Will I be embarrassed if I go looking for it?:ashamed2:

I think I'll pass. If full blood Hawaiians are any indication, he's typically Polynesian looking, and I'll leave it at that. :smile:

If you find him, we might miss you for a couple of weeks over here :-(

Kristiina
22-10-15, 20:04
Angela, look at Karelia HG, Samara HG and Motal HG at lower K levels: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf

At K3-K8 Karelia HG has c. 30% of East Asian, Samara HG has slightly less and Motala HG may have c. 10%.

@Alan, “So how on earth can ANE have anything close to do with modern EE ancestry?”

I ask: how on earth can modern HAN ancestry have anything to do with ancient Native American ancestry?

As for that European looking Karitiana, I would not say that for example Amazonian Piraha look European. In my opinion they look vaguely Melanesian (http://www.crystalinks.com/piraha.html)

arvistro
22-10-15, 20:49
At K3-K8 Karelia HG has c. 30% of East Asian, Samara HG has slightly less and Motala HG may have c. 10%.

Wait the pinkish (or is it purple?, but definately not the yellow Han) thing that is about 25-30% in K4 and up is Amerindian? It peaks in Native Americans if I read that graph correctly.

Angela
22-10-15, 20:52
Angela, look at Karelia HG, Samara HG and Motal HG at lower K levels: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2015/02/10/013433.DC1/013433-1.pdf

At K3-K8 Karelia HG has c. 30% of East Asian, Samara HG has slightly less and Motala HG may have c. 10%.

@Alan, “So how on earth can ANE have anything close to do with modern EE ancestry?”

I ask: how on earth can modern HAN ancestry have anything to do with ancient Native American ancestry?

As for that European looking Karitiana, I would not say that for example Amazonian Piraha look European. In my opinion they look vaguely Melanesian (http://www.crystalinks.com/piraha.html)

Kristiina, could you explain in more detail how you see it given the current state of our knowledge? I'd be very interested to hear it. (I totally agree about the South American Indians, fwiw. North American Plains Indians and also the Northeast North American Indians definitely have a different look. I think that they also carry high levels of mtDna X2. I don't know if the two things are connected.)

Kristiina
22-10-15, 21:00
@Arvistro "It peaks in Native Americans if I read that graph correctly."

Sure! But aren't Native Americans ancient Northeast Asians that are said to have ENA? In any way, at K=3, which is the East Eurasian v. West Eurasian level, Karelia HG is 25% East Eurasian.

At K=7 and K=8, East Asian of Karelian HG is divided in half between Arctic Eskimo ancestry and Amerindian ancestry.

arvistro
22-10-15, 21:33
@Arvistro "It peaks in Native Americans if I read that graph correctly."

Sure! But aren't Native Americans ancient Northeast Asians that are said to have ENA? In any way, at K=3, which is the East Eurasian v. West Eurasian level, Karelia HG is 25% East Eurasian.

At K=7 and K=8, East Asian of Karelian HG is divided in half between Arctic Eskimo ancestry and Amerindian ancestry.
Kristiina, let's not mix everything. East Asian and Native American are two different things. East Asians are like 100% ENA, Native Americans are ENA + ANE. I was making a post telling how one grandpa of EHG was East Asian (or cooking grandma for that matter) only to realize it was actually Native American thing, which can be explained by shared ANE ancestry.

_______________________
At K=3, looks like ANE is more of a yellow (East Eurasian) thing than brown (West Eurasian) thing? I see no brown in Native Americans? When Loshbour is almost exclusively brown? Alan, what do you think? Are ANE indeed the closest to WHG? If so, why it comes as yellow here?

Kristiina
22-10-15, 21:35
Angela, in a way I am very excited about this American paleo-Melanesian theory and in the recent Ket paper there were exctiting haplotrees such as this:

7466

I do not know what is the current state of our knowledge but I recently wrote a comment that summarizes what I currently think about this East West issue: “When we look at the big picture, we see that yDNA K comes from the ENA area, so that could explain the ENA shift of Europeans. At 40 kya Near Easterners were genetically very far from Eurasians such as Ma1 and Ust Ishim, so I think that at that time there was a divide between Near East/North Africa and the rest of Eurasia. (http://s28.postimg.org/wuj44klpp/Kos...shim_MA1ls.png) (e.g. ASI is quite close to Ust Ishim)

If Chinese researchers are correct in their claims that humans have an over 80 000 years long history in East Asia, ENA probably radiated to the west to a bigger extent than we now presume.

holderlin
26-10-15, 06:38
That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.

http://aminus3.s3.amazonaws.com/image/g0033/u00032483/i01548735/9c8b11b631e282c933b3bbae8c824f57_large.jpg
http://tns.thenews.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSC_3557.jpghttp://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/c01/612/kalash-young-woman-chitral.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/3b/11/cd3b11efcf8dae02ef70c25b15dca91f.jpghttps://40.media.tumblr.com/d2090f11e2681a82eb7613f41ac0a812/tumblr_mn1x2lDOxC1s31lllo1_400.jpg

Alan. I.....................this is a really wonderful post.

holderlin
26-10-15, 06:56
That is true, we have Jomon like people who are East Eurasian but display Caucasoid features. But than this is why I don't understand why people are using some phsyical features in modern populations to pin point the origin of ANE. Why should ANE be East Eurasian just based on Mansi if on fst Distance and the origin tree ANE is brother to UHG/WHG?

Where is the logic? But than if you seriously compare EE with ANE and EE without ANE a trend Caucasoid trend among the ANE admixed groups get's visible. I don't think this is coincidence. And I also don't think ANE reprsents Uber Caucasoid features just like I don't think WHG does (but ANE even slightly less) Just that I think they didn't look EE.

This is why in the past I wrote that ANE probably looked like some Kalash individuals who display "pseudo" Amerindian featueres. At the end of the day Kalash have like 35-40% ANE. They have slightly less than Amerindians and Mansi but than their other part is mostly UHG like which is still closer to ANE than EE anyways. I don't know why they are often ignored in these kind of studies. And I bet my last money that ancient samples from the Kalash region and South_Central Asia in general, prior to the farming expansion will look predominantly ANE.


This is how I imagine proto ANE groups looked like. Kalash look pred. West Eurasian but display very typical "pseudo" Amerindian features.

http://aminus3.s3.amazonaws.com/image/g0033/u00032483/i01548735/9c8b11b631e282c933b3bbae8c824f57_large.jpg
http://tns.thenews.com.pk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DSC_3557.jpghttp://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/c01/612/kalash-young-woman-chitral.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/3b/11/cd3b11efcf8dae02ef70c25b15dca91f.jpghttps://40.media.tumblr.com/d2090f11e2681a82eb7613f41ac0a812/tumblr_mn1x2lDOxC1s31lllo1_400.jpg

OK, I actually hadn't realized that Alan's posts were actually just the starting point of where shit got real.

My understanding was that ANE was distinct, and then later mixed. And I know the stats are consistent with this. I guess I would say that I'm unsure where "mongoloid" phenotype came about.

Kristiina
27-10-15, 17:40
This admixture run from the recent Ainu paper is interesting from the ENA perspective. It is interesting to try to trace ANE in these admixture runs as we know that Siberians and Arctic people are high in ANE. Yellow is Neolithic farmer ancestry which is absent in Ma1 and other ancient North-Eurasians.

7471

(http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)

Angela
28-10-15, 18:06
This admixture run from the recent Ainu paper is interesting from the ENA perspective. It is interesting to try to trace ANE in these admixture runs as we know that Siberians and Arctic people are high in ANE. Yellow is Neolithic farmer ancestry which is absent in Ma1 and other ancient North-Eurasians.

7471

(http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)


Very nice, thank-you.

So, would it be present in everything except the yellow Sardinia/Neolithic?

gyms
28-10-15, 18:45
http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2015/10/20/genetics.115.178673.short)?

Components
Red : 100% Sherpa --> mixed South Asian/Tibetan unified because there is no other sample with South Asian component to distinguish it.
Grey : 100% Ainou --> I am not convinced it is a pure old Jomon component. I think for a mixed old Jomon/East Siberian . This biases and underestimates their calculation of Jomon part in Japonese modern population who has got at least 40% of Jomon male Y-chromosome (30-40 % D2, 5-10% C1a1 and probably unknown O2 and N pourcentages already present in final Jomon)
Orange : 100% Indigenous tribes of Taiwan (Ami, Atayal) --> Old Austronesian component
Blue : 100% Chuckchi --> Old Beringian component
Violet : 100% Amazonian tribe (Karitiana and Surui) --> Amerindian component
Pink : 100% Papuan : Old Oceanian compoent
Yellow 100% Sardinian : West Eurasian component

We find the West Eurasian (yellow) component in:

- Without modern mixing in : Sardinian, Uyghur, Thai, Altaian, Mansi, Tubalar, Tuvinian, Kalmuk

- With full modern mixing (< 200 years) in : Aleut, Tlingit, Yukagir2, Even

- With ancient and modern mixings : Yakut, Selkup, Dolgan
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=117285#post117285

Dibran
16-12-16, 16:43
Since we are speaking about east Asian ancestry.A question about Haplogroups but first a little background. My parents are Albanians who lived in Montenegro. My fathers family tree reaches back at least 200+ years. My moms is just here say, great grandparents and what not, I know all of my relatives (there are way too many) I know I had multiple uncles from her side that disappeared during the Balkan wars. Anyway, I received my 23andme results yesterday. My fathers side is no shocker I am of the EV13 branch. However, My mothers side came out to be D4J! I know these Haplogroups reach wayyyy back in history and it really has nothing to do with any relative that I would know. however the only thing I know about this group is that it is of East Asian decent. Which is shocking to me, could this be a mistake? Thank you!

I don't think paternal and maternal haplogroups have so much to do with what your ethnic makeup is, so much as what it was ages ago. Autosomal DNA I would think is reflective of the ethnicities/heritage in your genes.

My paternal line is R-M512/R-M417 R1a1a1. I havent had a deep test done to determine which subclade it is. It is on the low side in Albania and Kosova, with E-V13 dominating. Proto-Albanians were most likely carriers of r1a and r1b and brought the culture from the steppes, assimilating the local E-V13 peoples into proto albanian speaking populations. Much like most south slavs dont descend from original slavs but from the assimilated haplogroups present there.

My mothers line was H11a. Can't say I have found much info on it or what its subclades are, but apparently very common in western europe. Basques, Scandinavians have some of the highest H11a. My mothers family is from Malesi in the Puka region, with origins from Cameria. My fathers family are from Martanesh in Dibra(Mat region) with origins in our family tree going back to Mirdita which isnt too far off.