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Angela
19-10-15, 20:57
This is the kind of story that enrages me.

See: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/opinion/sunday/a-rapists-nightmare.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1

When we're all sitting around discussing how certain y haplogroups became so dominant, well, this is one way, and it's nauseating.

LeBrok
20-10-15, 04:37
Courageous girl, she is my hero like Malala Yousafzai is. She should be nominated for Noble Peace Prize.

bicicleur
20-10-15, 08:50
it is a case of respect for woman
in other countries the genitales or the breasts of woman are mutilated
there are child brides
and there are countries where woman aren't allowed to come on the streets or drive a car

it is a kind of mentality which is being reimported in Europe through immigrants

it is not a case of a certain group of men
the author suggests this is only upper-cast men asaulting lower cast women
I agree lower cast women are more vulnerable, but afaik this is happening in all layers of society

Angela
20-10-15, 14:38
This is not just a problem with Middle Easterners or Muslims in particular. For one thing, in the situation highlighted in the piece the people were all Hindus. (What I found particularly enraging was that contact with "Untouchables" is considered so "impure" in the Hindu caste system, and yet the most intimate contact of all was sought after and forced on this girl.)

All one needs is a passing acquaintance with history to know that in many cases women are the spoils of conquest, or war, or ethnic conflicts. Look at what went on in Africa during the Tutsi vs Hutu conflict, or the aptly named "Rape of Nanking". Nor do I see how Europeans can be considered "pure" in this regard, and I'm not just talking about eras safely in the past like the Middle Ages. The Russian forces went on a raping spree in Berlin during World War II where women from eight to eighty were assaulted. The same thing happened in Bosnia twenty-five years ago.

It's a way not merely to punish the enemy but hopefully to destroy him and his culture. The irony is that your great-grandchildren can wind up "becoming" the enemy, genetically at least, and sometimes even culturally.

Then there's the institution of slavery, where rape is ubiquitous. How else did one third of African-Americans come to carry European y-dna haplogroups? This, of course, in spite of the fact that as the institution grew, they rationalized slavery as "moral" because these people weren't really "human". Well, they were human enough to mate with, apparently. It doesn't much comfort me (or them, I'm sure) to think that some of these women spared themselves the beatings or worse and just submitted. Most people will do anything to survive and make the best of their situation.

So no, this proclivity on the part of the male of the species or at least some of them in certain situations is not something that can be safely attributed solely to those "others" outside the confines of Europe.

Indeed, from the subtext of comments made by some population genetics enthusiasts, they rather relish imagining themselves as some raping, pillaging horde. From my perspective, that's how sick we are as a species.

Nor is rape always confined to such extreme circumstances as war or ethnic conflict. This kind of behavior can manifest itself when alcohol or drugs are involved, or even, among a minority, it's true, just when the opportunity presents itself. No mother wants to or should teach her daughter that all men are rapists. But any mother would be remiss, in my opinion, not to teach her daughter that it would be very foolhardy indeed to walk alone at night down deserted streets, or to go and "party" with some group of men she doesn't know and trust. Girl children aren't even always safe among their own male relatives. This is why a truly "civil" society needs strict laws prohibiting this kind of behavior that are strictly enforced. I know it's not a pleasant topic, but some people have had to deal with the dark underbelly of human society and don't have the luxury of pretending that it doesn't exist.

None of this should be taken to mean that I think that Europe or the U.S. should be in the business of importing men who think that rape is a sign of "liking" a woman which can be "cured" by marriage, or who, even more abominably, think it's ok to sexually mutilate women so they can't enjoy the sex act, or to marry children, or to enslave women sexually and otherwise who don't follow their religion, because I don't.

bicicleur
20-10-15, 15:06
men who think that rape is a sign of "liking" a woman which can be "cured" by marriage, or who, even more abominably, think it's ok to sexually mutilate women so they can't enjoy the sex act, or to marry children, or to enslave women sexually and otherwise who don't follow their religion, because I don't.

it happens more and more in Europe and it is because of immigration

if someone chooses to come and live in Europe he should become a European
if he doesn't accept that, he should not be allowed in Europe

there are now streets in Europe where women are not safe any more,
or when they are not 'dressed properly' they are spit upon

Angela
20-10-15, 16:13
it happens more and more in Europe and it is because of immigration

if someone chooses to come and live in Europe he should become a European
if he doesn't accept that, he should not be allowed in Europe

there are now streets in Europe where women are not safe any more,
or when they are not 'dressed properly' they are spit upon

I'm aware of those facts and deplore them, as you know, and I even somewhat agree with your conclusions, as you also know.

I'm sure you're also aware, however, or should be aware that this behavior is not hard-wired into Middle Easterners while Europeans are free of it. Europeans were happily doing the same kinds of things twenty-five years ago. Perhaps, on those grounds, the Netherlands and Germany etc. should have barred the migration of men from the Balkans?

bicicleur
20-10-15, 16:37
you mean the fugitives of the Balkan war?
they (the fugitives) didn't display that kind of behaviour

and I don't say everything is/was perfect in Europe, but these Gipsies/African/Middle East/Pakistani immigrants are certainly a serious step back
in America immigrants need a job and a carreer to survive and so they are forced to become partly Americans
in Europe they get to much for free and can aford keep the same habits and mentality from their country of origin

did you hear about this case ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

it is about Pakistani in the UK organising rapes of mainly British white girls

the social workers didn't report it and these people could go on for years with this practice, because these social workers were so 'political correct' that they taught it was racism to report this

Europe does not want to impose their own morals upon immigrants

LeBrok
20-10-15, 17:33
you mean the fugitives of the Balkan war?
they (the fugitives) didn't display that kind of behaviour

and I don't say everything is/was perfect in Europe, but these Gipsies/African/Middle East/Pakistani immigrants are certainly a serious step back
in America immigrants need a job and a carreer to survive and so they are forced to become partly Americans
in Europe they get to much for free and can aford keep the same habits and mentality from their country of origin

did you hear about this case ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

it is about Pakistani in the UK organising rapes of mainly British white girls

the social workers didn't report it and these people could go on for years with this practice, because these social workers were so 'political correct' that they taught it was racism to report this

Europe does not want to impose their own morals upon immigrants
I don't remember you ever wrote bigger nonsense than this one. The scary thing is that you honestly believe in it.

Angela
20-10-15, 18:21
You amaze me. Presented with this story, you focus not on the courage of this young woman and her family in confronting an oppressive and brutal "gender", "class-caste" and indeed "racial" system, and the proof positive that this is nothing new in human history, certainly not in European history, and your immediate "go to" is non- European migration into Europe?

Romans 2:1 (http://biblehub.com/romans/2-1.htm)
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

bicicleur
20-10-15, 19:14
I don't remember you ever wrote bigger nonsense than this one. The scary thing is that you honestly believe in it.

that was literaly the conclusion of the commitee that was appointed by the British government to investigate why this could have happened and lasted for 6 years

the fact that you dismiss this as nonsense shows how utterly naive you are in your political correctness and that you are very biased in your judgments

I hope that you at least will make the effort to read this


An independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in the town, led by Professor Alexis Jay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Jay), was established in 2013 for Rotherham Council.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-BBC1Nov2013-3) The inquiry's initial report, published on 26 August 2014, condemned the failure of the authorities in Rotherham to act effectively against the abuse and even, in some cases, to acknowledge that it was taking place.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-report-2)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-BBC26Aug2014-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-Saul26Aug2014-5) It conservatively estimated that 1,400 children had been sexually abused in the town between 1997 and 2013, predominantly by gangs of British-Pakistani men.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-6) Abuses described by the report included abduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abduction), rape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape), torture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture) and sex trafficking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking) of children.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-Saul26Aug2014-5)
Members of the British-Pakistani community condemned both the sexual abuse and that it had been covered up for fear of "giving oxygen" to racism.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-bbc_Real_or_imagined-7)

On some occasions child victims went back to perpetrators in the belief that this was the only way their parents and other children in the family would be safe. In the most extreme cases, no one in the family believed that the authorities could protect them."[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-report-2) The report highlighted the role of taxi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi) drivers in the town in facilitating the abuse.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-29)
Because the majority of perpetrators were Asian or of Pakistani heritage, several council staff described themselves as being nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others, the report noted, "remembered clear direction from their managers" not to make such identification.[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-johnson-30) One Home Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office) researcher, attempting to raise concerns with senior police officers in 2002 about the level of abuse, was told not to do so again, and was subsequently suspended and sidelined.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-peachey-31) The researcher told BBC Panorama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panorama_(TV_series))that:
... she had been accused of being insensitive when she told one official that most of the perpetrators were from Rotherham's Pakistani community. A female colleague talked to her about the incident. "She said you must never refer to that again – you must never refer to Asian men. "And her other response was to book me on a two-day ethnicity and diversity course to raise my awareness of ethnic issues."[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-DataStolen-16)

bicicleur
20-10-15, 19:19
You amaze me. Presented with this story, you focus not on the courage of this young woman and her family in confronting an oppressive and brutal "gender", "class-caste" and indeed "racial" system, and the proof positive that this is nothing new in human history, certainly not in European history, and your immediate "go to" is non- European migration into Europe?

Romans 2:1 (http://biblehub.com/romans/2-1.htm)
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

I try to relate to the here and now, because some people tend to allow this behaviour here too.

LeBrok
21-10-15, 05:27
that was literaly the conclusion of the commitee that was appointed by the British government to investigate why this could have happened and lasted for 6 years

the fact that you dismiss this as nonsense shows how utterly naive you are in your political correctness and that you are very biased in your judgments

I hope that you at least will make the effort to read this


An independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in the town, led by Professor Alexis Jay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Jay), was established in 2013 for Rotherham Council.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-BBC1Nov2013-3) The inquiry's initial report, published on 26 August 2014, condemned the failure of the authorities in Rotherham to act effectively against the abuse and even, in some cases, to acknowledge that it was taking place.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-report-2)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-BBC26Aug2014-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-Saul26Aug2014-5) It conservatively estimated that 1,400 children had been sexually abused in the town between 1997 and 2013, predominantly by gangs of British-Pakistani men.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-6) Abuses described by the report included abduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abduction), rape (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape), torture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture) and sex trafficking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking) of children.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-Saul26Aug2014-5)
Members of the British-Pakistani community condemned both the sexual abuse and that it had been covered up for fear of "giving oxygen" to racism.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-bbc_Real_or_imagined-7)

On some occasions child victims went back to perpetrators in the belief that this was the only way their parents and other children in the family would be safe. In the most extreme cases, no one in the family believed that the authorities could protect them."[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-report-2) The report highlighted the role of taxi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi) drivers in the town in facilitating the abuse.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-29)
Because the majority of perpetrators were Asian or of Pakistani heritage, several council staff described themselves as being nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist; others, the report noted, "remembered clear direction from their managers" not to make such identification.[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-johnson-30) One Home Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office) researcher, attempting to raise concerns with senior police officers in 2002 about the level of abuse, was told not to do so again, and was subsequently suspended and sidelined.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-peachey-31) The researcher told BBC Panorama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panorama_(TV_series))that:
... she had been accused of being insensitive when she told one official that most of the perpetrators were from Rotherham's Pakistani community. A female colleague talked to her about the incident. "She said you must never refer to that again – you must never refer to Asian men. "And her other response was to book me on a two-day ethnicity and diversity course to raise my awareness of ethnic issues."[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal#cite_n ote-DataStolen-16) It says that the nationality of perpetrators wasn't disclosed, not the fact that they abused children. Right?

several council staff described themselves as being nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist
What you said was that the abuse wasn't disclosed by social workers because they protected Pakistani minority.

bicicleur
21-10-15, 09:06
Because the majority of perpetrators were Asian or of Pakistani heritage, several council staff described themselves as being nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist;

the text from the report is clear enough

you just don't want to acknowledge the truth, you are in denial and prefer to look the other way
if you had been in charge you wouldn't have interviened either and allowed the crimes to continue
you simply are not fit to judge or take responsibility
'wir haben es nicht gewusst'

Angela
21-10-15, 15:50
These are the kinds of defendants who tend to have an unfortunate tendency to fall down stairs or off chairs while in police custody, and often wind up dead in prison. Even there, people have standards.

I know that things can be said in the heat of anger that one doesn't really mean, but to imply that a person of LeBrok's obvious humanity would look the other way while children were raped is totally out of line.

LeBrok
21-10-15, 16:39
Because the majority of perpetrators were Asian or of Pakistani heritage, several council staff described themselves as being nervous about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist;
'
I think your reading with comprehension is way off.

Your quote says that the ethnicity of perpetrators were hidden, not the abuse of children was hidden. Comprende?

This is what you said:

it is about Pakistani in the UK organising rapes of mainly British white girlsthe social workers didn't report it and these people could go on for years with this practice, because these social workers were so 'political correct' that they taught it was racism to report this
You say that sexual abuse was hidden because of racism. This is not true. Abuse was reported but not the ethnicity of abusers. This was my point from the beginning, and I hope you get it right this time.

bicicleur
21-10-15, 17:08
read the full text in the wikipedia article I quoted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal , and if you're interested google further on the subject

it is much worse then what I mentioned here, it is a cover-up of large scale brutal crimes in fear of being acused for racism
that is why this could go on for six years despite of many children and parents reporting these abuses at the authorities who were supposed to protect them

it looks to me that you refuse to face the truth because it is inconvenient and doesn't fit in your political correct views
you are the one who is scary
I can't say no more

Boreas
21-10-15, 17:21
it happens more and more in Europe and it is because of immigration

if someone chooses to come and live in Europe he should become a European
if he doesn't accept that, he should not be allowed in Europe

there are now streets in Europe where women are not safe any more,
or when they are not 'dressed properly' they are spit upon

You should burn those people like Hitler did Jews

Jews were the responsible of Germany bad economics
https://www.papermasters.com/images/nazi-germanys-negative-anti-semitism-propaganda.jpg

And now immigrants are responsible.

Well Done to you, you solve all the problem in Europe. Now, young white blonde teenage girls can walk around to street at night in a peace.

For the UK

2007
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00645/news-graphics-2007-_645986a.gif

2012
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/18/article-2102895-11CA3AE5000005DC-551_468x234.jpg

bicicleur
21-10-15, 18:20
LeBrok, tell him ..

LeBrok
22-10-15, 03:35
LeBrok, tell him ..
Tell him what? His sarcasm is aimed at you. He pointed to statistic, and Pakistani and Indians, or Middle Easterners in general, are not the worse offenders in England. That's a fact.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 08:30
I'm telling that many immigrants lack respect for women, and your defence is that there are gangs from other countries that specialize in organised burglary and theft?
So you don't want to acknowledge the truth and try to change subject?
And why do Hitler and the Jews have to come in? Because I told something that doesn't please you?

LeBrok
22-10-15, 09:13
I'm telling that many immigrants lack respect for women, and your defence is that there are gangs from other countries that specialize in organised burglary and theft? Sure there are immigrants who don't respect women. Now for the balance of things, entertain us about Europeans not respecting women. I'm sure there are interesting stories too.
For the record, there are places in every city in Europe and America, where women, but not only, are afraid to walk at night, or even during day.

So you don't want to acknowledge the truth and try to change subject?I just pointed to your misunderstanding the story, and your phobia of foreigners.
Do you know the difference between not reporting a crime, and reporting a crime but hiding ethnicity of the criminal? If you acknowledged your mistake right away we wouldn't have this long conversation.
Pay attention that I'm not disputing that crime was committed or that it wasn't committed by Pakistani migrants.



And why do Hitler and the Jews have to come in? Because I told something that doesn't please you? Did I post it?

bicicleur
22-10-15, 09:46
the point is that this crime could go on for 6 years exactly because it was commited by non-Europeans
the reason is there is a phobia about so-called 'European racism'
when someone tries to point out some of the immigrants behaviour is not acceptable in Europe (and shouldn't be nowhere in the world) this person gets blaimed all to soon to be a fascist and a racist
that is the reason why immigrants are still allowed to disrespect women
(in general : that is the reason why many immigrants never become mixed with European)

so please stop your phobia for European racism and discuss it in an adult way

Boreas
22-10-15, 15:59
the point is that this crime could go on for 6 years exactly because it was commited by non-Europeans
the reason is there is a phobia about so-called 'European racism'
when someone tries to point out some of the immigrants behaviour is not acceptable in Europe (and shouldn't be nowhere in the world) this person gets blaimed all to soon to be a fascist and a racist
that is the reason why immigrants are still allowed to disrespect women
(in general : that is the reason why many immigrants never become mixed with European)

so please stop your phobia for European racism and discuss it in an adult way

Adult Way? Such a primitive defense.

I can see your point in here, but the end of your way is just another Auschwitz. You have to understand that.

and one more thing



and I don't say everything is/was perfect in Europe, but these Gipsies/African/Middle East/Pakistani immigrants


Comparing Gypsy People and Pakistani immigrants, well done to you. Read something about History of Gypsy People.

bicicleur
22-10-15, 16:14
Adult Way? Such a primitive defense.

I can see your point in here, but the end of your way is just another Auschwitz. You have to understand that.

and one more thing



Comparing Gypsy People and Pakistani immigrants, well done to you. Read something about History of Gypsy People.

Indeed, you are not able to discuss in an adult way if you have to drag Auschwitz into the discussion all the time.
So I won't say no further.

Boreas
23-10-15, 08:16
Indeed, you are not able to discuss in an adult way if you have to drag Auschwitz into the discussion all the time.
So I won't say no further.

At least I am using real examples and not hide behing words such as "adult way". I am feeling similar things to you, how can I discuss the immigration problem of Europe with a person who see "the Gypsy people are immigration"

Note: Try to decrease the importance of what Jews faced during the WW2 and before it, is very common well known European Neo Nazi activity,

Your mentality now killed a Swedish Teacher in Sweden who had Iraq origion and a Somalian-Swedish Boy. Because you are not accusing someone who commit an offense. You are using people's identity. % of violence againstthe vomen nearly 25% in Europe in 30-35% South America / Far East and rest of world 35-40%.

The true behaivor is punishing people who are doing these things , not accusing entire people according to their origin. This is the adult way, if you are really interested in.

Twilight
24-10-15, 03:46
This is the kind of story that enrages me.

See: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/18/opinion/sunday/a-rapists-nightmare.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1

When we're all sitting around discussing how certain y haplogroups became so dominant, well, this is one way, and it's nauseating.
This is quite surprising, I would imagine that would've been a karmic debt. Congratulations to the girl for speaking out, I hope she gets a Noble Peace Prize soon

RobertColumbia
01-02-16, 05:11
...All one needs is a passing acquaintance with history to know that in many cases women are the spoils of conquest, or war, or ethnic conflicts....

It's a way not merely to punish the enemy but hopefully to destroy him and his culture. The irony is that your great-grandchildren can wind up "becoming" the enemy, genetically at least, and sometimes even culturally.

Then there's the institution of slavery, where rape is ubiquitous. How else did one third of African-Americans come to carry European y-dna haplogroups? This, of course, in spite of the fact that as the institution grew, they rationalized slavery as "moral" because these people weren't really "human". Well, they were human enough to mate with, apparently. It doesn't much comfort me (or them, I'm sure) to think that some of these women spared themselves the beatings or worse and just submitted. Most people will do anything to survive and make the best of their situation....

That is a good point. There is now a widespread consensus that US president Thomas Jefferson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson%E2%80%93Hemings_controversy), a famous member of y-haplogroup T, has African-American descendants via a relationship with one of his slaves.

LeBrok
01-02-16, 05:39
At least I am using real examples and not hide behing words such as "adult way". I am feeling similar things to you, how can I discuss the immigration problem of Europe with a person who see "the Gypsy people are immigration"

Note: Try to decrease the importance of what Jews faced during the WW2 and before it, is very common well known European Neo Nazi activity,

Your mentality now killed a Swedish Teacher in Sweden who had Iraq origion and a Somalian-Swedish Boy. Because you are not accusing someone who commit an offense. You are using people's identity. % of violence againstthe vomen nearly 25% in Europe in 30-35% South America / Far East and rest of world 35-40%.

The true behaivor is punishing people who are doing these things , not accusing entire people according to their origin. This is the adult way, if you are really interested in.
Good point, but I don't think he comprehends it.