Teasar: Re-population of Ireland in the Bronze age

Fire Haired14

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030002_6a09b8ca.jpg

Bronze age Irish huts. Source.​

Jean Manco was at the GGI 2015 conference a few days where Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin spoke. Dan Bradly has Neolithic, Bronze, and Iron age genomes from Ireland. All he said was there massive replacement in Ireland. We can confidently assume this replacement occurred in the Bronze age. There's a good chance Beaker-folk caused this replacement. I and many others have been proposing Ireland(and Britian) were repopulated in the Bronze age for 3+ years.

This is gratifying because many have said we're crazy, replacement is impossible, where's the evidence in archaeology, etc. The evidence is in DNA. Modern Irish are basically identical to Late Neolithic Central Europeans(who were R1b-P312 rich). The Neolithic inhabitants of Ireland were without a doubt "EEF+WHG". There's simply no room for significant pre-Bronze age ancestry in the British Isles.

The same thing has been proven to have happened in Scandinavia and East Europe. Ancient genomes suggest 70%+ Late Neolithic/Bronze age population replacement in Scandinavia in East Europe.

Although in Spain it was very differnt. We can see in a Spaniard from 1500 BC that she had Steppe ancestry but was overwhelmingly of Neolithic Spanish decent. It's hard to say as of now, but I'd guess modern Iberians are 50%+ of Neolithic Iberian decent. There is significant LN/BA Central European ancestry but not nearly as much as in the British Isles.
 
030002_6a09b8ca.jpg

Bronze age Irish huts. Source.​

Jean Manco was at the GGI 2015 conference a few days where Dan Bradley of Trinity College Dublin spoke. Dan Bradly has Neolithic, Bronze, and Iron age genomes from Ireland. All he said was there massive replacement in Ireland. We can confidently assume this replacement occurred in the Bronze age. There's a good chance Beaker-folk caused this replacement. I and many others have been proposing Ireland(and Britian) were repopulated in the Bronze age for 3+ years.

This is gratifying because many have said we're crazy, replacement is impossible, where's the evidence in archaeology, etc. The evidence is in DNA. Modern Irish are basically identical to Late Neolithic Central Europeans(who were R1b-P312 rich). The Neolithic inhabitants of Ireland were without a doubt "EEF+WHG". There's simply no room for significant pre-Bronze age ancestry in the British Isles.

The same thing has been proven to have happened in Scandinavia and East Europe. Ancient genomes suggest 70%+ Late Neolithic/Bronze age population replacement in Scandinavia in East Europe.

Although in Spain it was very differnt. We can see in a Spaniard from 1500 BC that she had Steppe ancestry but was overwhelmingly of Neolithic Spanish decent. It's hard to say as of now, but I'd guess modern Iberians are 50%+ of Neolithic Iberian decent. There is significant LN/BA Central European ancestry but not nearly as much as in the British Isles.

The funny thing is that on this forum there are people that have suggested this for many years... well, those people were ridiculized on other fora, but now here it is their revenge.
 
There's a good chance Beaker-folk caused this replacement.

Modern Irish are basically identical to Late Neolithic Central Europeans(who were R1b-P312 rich).

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14874056532_d0ccd80310_o.jpg

I don't doubt Ireland was largely repopulated in the Copper Age and that Bell Beaker are most likely but I don't think the exact geographical source is pinned down yet.

There's simply no room for significant pre-Bronze age ancestry in the British Isles.

Sure there is. Wait and see if the replacement was mostly male mediated or not.
 
We should know soon enough, so I'm definitely not putting any money down. :)

However, we have lots of mtDna from Ireland, don't we? We also have mtDna from the Neolithic and from the steppe. Has anyone compared them?

Even though there's lots of "Near Eastern" mtDna in both groups I think there are differences in terms of subclades. If anyone really wants fuel for speculation I think it's there.

I'm afraid my own interest is flagging a bit.
 
We should know soon enough, so I'm definitely not putting any money down. :)

However, we have lots of mtDna from Ireland, don't we? We also have mtDna from the Neolithic and from the steppe. Has anyone compared them?

Even though there's lots of "Near Eastern" mtDna in both groups I think there are differences in terms of subclades. If anyone really wants fuel for speculation I think it's there.

I'm afraid my own interest is flagging a bit.

I have 300 mtDNAs from Ireland saved. Ireland does have typical Steppe mtDNA but not a lot at all. But, high coverage data is needed.
 
I have 300 mtDNAs from Ireland saved. Ireland does have typical Steppe mtDNA but not a lot at all. But, high coverage data is needed.
So - if I understood correctly - the steppe mtDNA in Ireland is a tiny percentage on the total?
 
So - if I understood correctly - the steppe mtDNA in Ireland is a tiny percentage on the total?

It looks that way. However lots of high coverage data is needed to confirm.
 
I am looking forward for the Y-DNA results in this study. I am particularly interested in the Neolithic samples, since the Irish may have had over 95% of R1b-P312 (essentially L21, but also some DF27 and from the Iron Age also U152) before the Vikings, Normans, English and Lowland Scots moved to the island. I expected to find mostly I2a1, I2a2 and G2a among Neolithic samples, but the proportions between these three haplogroups may not be the same as today, because of genetic drift and because other peoples brought the same haplogroups too.

I think that everyone expects R1b-L21 to have been the main paternal lineage to have appeared in the Bronze Age in the British Isles, but it would be nice to have a confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time that we see lots of unexpected lineages, mostly lineages that have died out today as they were slowly replaced by royal or noble lineages over the millennia. What I am saying is that it's not impossible to have lots of R1b-L11* or R1b-P312* that have no descendants today. If enough samples are tested between 2000 BCE and, say 500 CE, we could see just how quickly modern R1b-L21, and especially M222, diffused within the Irish population. If I am not mistaken, M222 has a TMRCA of only about 2000 years, so its expansion may only have happened during the Late Iron Age.
 
I am looking forward for the Y-DNA results in this study. I am particularly interested in the Neolithic samples, since the Irish may have had over 95% of R1b-P312 (essentially L21, but also some DF27 and from the Iron Age also U152) before the Vikings, Normans, English and Lowland Scots moved to the island. I expected to find mostly I2a1, I2a2 and G2a among Neolithic samples, but the proportions between these three haplogroups may not be the same as today, because of genetic drift and because other peoples brought the same haplogroups too.

I think that everyone expects R1b-L21 to have been the main paternal lineage to have appeared in the Bronze Age in the British Isles, but it would be nice to have a confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time that we see lots of unexpected lineages, mostly lineages that have died out today as they were slowly replaced by royal or noble lineages over the millennia. What I am saying is that it's not impossible to have lots of R1b-L11* or R1b-P312* that have no descendants today. If enough samples are tested between 2000 BCE and, say 500 CE, we could see just how quickly modern R1b-L21, and especially M222, diffused within the Irish population. If I am not mistaken, M222 has a TMRCA of only about 2000 years, so its expansion may only have happened during the Late Iron Age.

only 2000years for TMRCA, that 50BC :disappointed:
 
I am looking forward for the Y-DNA results in this study. I am particularly interested in the Neolithic samples, since the Irish may have had over 95% of R1b-P312 (essentially L21, but also some DF27 and from the Iron Age also U152) before the Vikings, Normans, English and Lowland Scots moved to the island. I expected to find mostly I2a1, I2a2 and G2a among Neolithic samples, but the proportions between these three haplogroups may not be the same as today, because of genetic drift and because other peoples brought the same haplogroups too.

I think that everyone expects R1b-L21 to have been the main paternal lineage to have appeared in the Bronze Age in the British Isles, but it would be nice to have a confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time that we see lots of unexpected lineages, mostly lineages that have died out today as they were slowly replaced by royal or noble lineages over the millennia. What I am saying is that it's not impossible to have lots of R1b-L11* or R1b-P312* that have no descendants today. If enough samples are tested between 2000 BCE and, say 500 CE, we could see just how quickly modern R1b-L21, and especially M222, diffused within the Irish population. If I am not mistaken, M222 has a TMRCA of only about 2000 years, so its expansion may only have happened during the Late Iron Age.

It was announced next year there will be new papers published with genomes from Western(inlu. Iberia) Bell beaker. That data will finally resolve whether R1b in Eastern Bell Beaker had a Western or Eastern source. I looked at FTDNA's R1b-L21 project results. Because of this I expect Bronze age Irish to be R1b-L21.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21?iframe=yresults

I noticed that there isn't a single L21 clade that dominates. There's several clades, I think almost 10, that take up most L21 All have a TMRC of about 4,000 years according to yfull.
 
I am looking forward for the Y-DNA results in this study. I am particularly interested in the Neolithic samples, since the Irish may have had over 95% of R1b-P312 (essentially L21, but also some DF27 and from the Iron Age also U152) before the Vikings, Normans, English and Lowland Scots moved to the island. I expected to find mostly I2a1, I2a2 and G2a among Neolithic samples, but the proportions between these three haplogroups may not be the same as today, because of genetic drift and because other peoples brought the same haplogroups too.

I think that everyone expects R1b-L21 to have been the main paternal lineage to have appeared in the Bronze Age in the British Isles, but it would be nice to have a confirmation. It wouldn't be the first time that we see lots of unexpected lineages, mostly lineages that have died out today as they were slowly replaced by royal or noble lineages over the millennia. What I am saying is that it's not impossible to have lots of R1b-L11* or R1b-P312* that have no descendants today. If enough samples are tested between 2000 BCE and, say 500 CE, we could see just how quickly modern R1b-L21, and especially M222, diffused within the Irish population. If I am not mistaken, M222 has a TMRCA of only about 2000 years, so its expansion may only have happened during the Late Iron Age.

Where do you think most of the I1 in Ireland came from? Do you think most of it has been in Ireland since the Neolithic or do you think most of the I1 is from Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon settlement?

The extremely high presence of R1b-M222 is quite interesting. It's TMRCA keeps getting pushed back (making it less likely that the MRCA was actually King Niall or a close contemporary), but its dominance still seems to indicate a strong social selection factor for it. Even if M222 existed hundreds of years before Niall, it's still quite likely that Niall (as a member of the Gaelic social elite) was M222 and that a significant percentage (but not 100%) of M222's today are actually paternally descended from his and his sons' extra large harems.
 
The first Irish high kings with their men are, according to legend, supposed to have entered Ireland ca. 1900-1500 BC.
 
The first Irish high kings with their men are, according to legend, supposed to have entered Ireland ca. 1900-1500 BC.

It is interesting Irish claim their ancestors displaced a previous people who lived in Ireland because for the most part that did occur. Irish Book of Invasions: The Neolithic sites called Brú na Bóinne are associated with Tuatha Dé Danann the people who lived in Ireland before the Geals. Why wouldn't they say those remains were made by Irish 100s of years ago?

It's possible the book of invasions has truth to it. Lots looks like even medival add ons. Could be a lot like Roman origin stories, where they claim to be from Trojans or Greeks or etc. Could be based on truth though.
 
from Wikipedia
[h=3]Fir Bolg[edit][/h](Those who went to Greece were enslaved by the Greeks and made to carry bags of clay. After 230 years, they sail back to Ireland. They are known as the Fir Bolg (men of bags), and contain two sub-groups known as the Fir Domnann and Fir Gálioin. Led by their five chieftains, they divide Ireland into five provinces: Gann takes North Munster, Sengann takes South Munster, Genann takes Connacht, Rudraige takes Ulster and Slanga takes Leinster. A succession of nine High Kings rule over Ireland for the next 37 years.]

Ireland invasions story is very confusing and specialists, even when they accept some facts are not in accord concerning the number and order or arrivals-
but I chose this famous 'Fir Bolg' to show some people mentioned by legends could have had some reality; 'bolg' = 'sack', 'bag' - HUBERT, knowing this tribe was divided into Fir Galiaoin and Fir Domnainn, supposed they were Brittons or Gauls, P-celtic speakers anyway; and the famous 'bolg', aside of an explicative myth, could be the large trousers Belgae people wore, larger than the ordinal 'bracae'; seemingly Goidels or Gaels did not wear trousers...

Tuatha Dé Dananns
could maybe have something in common with Danube/Danaw river and Central Europe; their craftmans gods could refer to Central Europe skillful metallurgists, maybe a link to BBs? Uneasy to say; all the way it doesn't check the chronological order of the legends??? here it's a personal interpretation and myself would not put a kopeck coin on it!

 
Keeping in mind that the Lebor Gabála is a huge mishmash of mythic history, folklore and invention, I've always rather thought that the Fir Bolg were essentially synonymous with the Fomhóraigh.

The former are listed as one of the invasions, but they never seem to have had any contact with the latter, despite previous and later groups having to contend with such, and they're of the same stock as the Tuatha Dé.

The battles the Tuatha Dé fight at Magh Tuireadh are against first the Fir Bolg, for kingship of Ireland, and secondly against the Fomhóraigh, for the same thing, the Fomhóraigh having come to rule (again) through Bres, who shares kinship with both groups.

So, basically, the Fir Bolg are of the same divine background as the Tuatha Dé (as, to some degree, are the Fomhóraigh), the Fir Bolg never encounter the Fomhóraigh like all the other invaders (because, in this theory, they can't really encounter themselves), and the two groups fight over sovereignty every so often between bouts of interbreeding.

I tend to imagine these are echoes of the same sort of older Indo-European mythology we see when looking at the Aesir/giants, asuras/devas, etc.

Eventually, Christians smashed all the older lore they could find (along with folk memories of actual invasions of Ireland) together and made a medieval narrative out of it along the lines of other contemporaneous accounts which were popular.

If one were to attempt to generally associate (not terribly seriously) the various invasions (if they existed) with Y-DNA, I'd hazard that the Ceasrach (the first people in Ireland after "Noah's flood") were I2, the Partholóin (the people who brought farming) were various forms of G2/J2 (maybe?), the Neimhidh/Fir Bolg/Fomhóraigh/Tuatha Dé divine (thus largely beyond our concepts of DNA), and the Celts R1b-L21, based on its fairly obvious association with Celtic-speakers.
 
Where do you think most of the I1 in Ireland came from? Do you think most of it has been in Ireland since the Neolithic or do you think most of the I1 is from Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon settlement?

The extremely high presence of R1b-M222 is quite interesting. It's TMRCA keeps getting pushed back (making it less likely that the MRCA was actually King Niall or a close contemporary), but its dominance still seems to indicate a strong social selection factor for it. Even if M222 existed hundreds of years before Niall, it's still quite likely that Niall (as a member of the Gaelic social elite) was M222 and that a significant percentage (but not 100%) of M222's today are actually paternally descended from his and his sons' extra large harems.

I1 most likely came to the British Isles with the Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Vikings. I seriously doubt that any of the subclade found today descend from Neolithic I1 because the TMRCA of modern samples is just too young. That being said, there could be extinct subclades of I1 among Neolithic samples (like the one found in Neolithic Hungary) non-ancestral to modern I1.
 
only 2000years for TMRCA, that 50BC :disappointed:

For M222, not for L21, which is about 2000 years older.
 
Maciamo said:
there could be extinct subclades of I1 among Neolithic samples (like the one found in Neolithic Hungary) non-ancestral to modern I1.

Why do you assume that Neolithic I1 from Hungary is an extinct branch, and non-ancestral to modern I1?

That I1 was found in LBK culture, which later expanded to the north, forming the TRB culture, groups of which reached Scandinavia. So in my opinion that I1 from Hungary could be ancestral to I1 in Scandinavia. Let's remember, that in Mesolithic Scandinavia no I1 has been found, but only various subclades of I2. So it most likely came there later, with Neolithic TRB farmers, who were the first ones to bring farming to Scandinavia. I see no reason to condemn Neolithic Hungarian I1 to extinction, even though it probably went through a bottleneck, and then a founder effect.

Here is roughly how I imagined that (and IMO I1 was in Scandinavia before R1a and before R1b as well):

MAP

My_idea.png
 

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