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Angela
02-11-15, 20:30
Genetically, they are supposed to be the closest to the EEF populations. However, there was indeed some admixture, as the presence of U-152 on the island attests. There were also probably some incursions at the coast from populations from the eastern Med and North Africa. Also, there is not a perfect correspondence between genotype and phenotype. Selection, both natural and social, and drift also have their part to play.

I therefore think it's perilous to assume that the Sardinians can be held to be a perfect physical representation of the ancient EEF. More importantly, if you're going to do that, I think it's best to look at the typical or average Sardinian, and particularly those from inland, isolated regions.

I have some experience with them because not only have I been there a few times, but they have migrated to my area and many of their folksingers and dancers perform there.

These are some commonly found looks in Nuoro, arguably one of the most inbred areas of the island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi-zOpgrkv8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi-zOpgrkv8

See also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-m3V1cwnPY

You also can find phenotypes like these:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/240284_3737199344551_1633922923_o.jpg
http://sardinias.it/files/immagini/Redentore%20-%20donna%20costume.JPG

Fire Haired14
03-11-15, 01:58
There isn't a look for any ethnic group, there's more like a million features every population has at differnt proportions or some looks only some have. Subtle things instead of hardcore difference in features is what defines differnt ethnic looks. So, it's hard to say how they look. At a quick glance Sardinians don't look West Asian at all. They'd pass as white or Latino in America.

MOESAN
05-11-15, 14:10
@ Fire Haired

"They'd pass as white or Latino in America"

what does the word "white" aside "latino" in your statement? would not West-Asians be "whites"? (aside they are 'caucasians' in the broad anhtropological sense)

and what knew the most of folks about ancient EEF look(s) ??? I know few and a lot know lesser yet, I suppose.

Fire Haired14
05-11-15, 17:29
@ Fire Haired

"They'd pass as white or Latino in America"

what does the word "white" aside "latino" in your statement? would not West-Asians be "whites"? (aside they are 'caucasians' in the broad anhtropological sense)

and what knew the most of folks about ancient EEF look(s) ??? I know few and a lot know lesser yet, I suppose.

White means American of European decent who are usually from Britain, Germany, or Scandinavia. Latino means Latino. American's Latino decent usually comes from Mexico and Puerto Rico.

MOESAN
05-11-15, 17:40
White means American of European decent who are usually from Britain, Germany, or Scandinavia. Latino means Latino. American's Latino decent usually comes from Mexico and Puerto Rico.

So West Asians are not "white" (which ones? Caucasus or Pathans mixed with Soutern Indians?) and Southern Europeans are not "white"?

Fire Haired14
05-11-15, 19:55
So West Asians are not "white" (which ones? Caucasus or Pathans mixed with Soutern Indians?) and Southern Europeans are not "white"?

White was never meant to include West Asians. Anyone from Europe today is considered white. But in the 1800s, Irish, German, Jewish, Polish, Italian, at times were not considered white by the public. Once they assimilated and spoke English they were considered white.

Sardinians to me is how I'd imagine South Europeans, even though I've never really seen any(In America everyone is mixed and it's impossible to know ethnic origins). It's obvious to me there's EEF features in all Europeans which is why Sardinians look kind of "white" to me as an American. I have seen many Pakistanis, Indians, Assyrians, Iranians, and Arabs and Sardinians don't look like them.

Angela
05-11-15, 21:52
There isn't a look for any ethnic group, there's more like a million features every population has at differnt proportions or some looks only some have. Subtle things instead of hardcore difference in features is what defines differnt ethnic looks. So, it's hard to say how they look. At a quick glance Sardinians don't look West Asian at all. They'd pass as white or Latino in America.

What did you expect? Sardinians are Europeans. The vast majority of their ancestors arrived in Europe eight thousand years ago. Since then, West Asia has changed a lot genetically, and therefore in terms of phenotype.

Plus, "white" is a meaningless terms genetically. It's a term used in the US where "Anglos" were "white" and anyone with a drop of "African" ancestry was black. They didn't quite know how to classify other Europeans. According to William Penn, the Germans who flooded Pennsylvania were not "white". He apparently hadn't meant his colony for them. Neither were the Irish "white" enough, no matter how they are seen now. America operated for a long time under the "one drop" rule. Any percentage of African meant you were "black" and could be enslaved. You see the lengths to which this could go. By those standards, as we've now discovered, a certain percentage of "white" Americans, particularly those who live in southern states like Louisiana and South Carolina carry up to 5% SSA. Plus, if "white" is a synonym for a certain branch of West Eurasians, are the Finns and other northeast Europeans "white" just because they're "fair", even though they have significant percentages of East Eurasian? It's not, as I said, a very useful classification. I think West Eurasian/East Eurasian/SSA is probably a good way of categorizing it if you're going to stick to three major divisions, and Amerindian, Oceanian, if you want to go to five. Within Europe, the vast majority of the ancestry is going to be West Eurasian with a bit of East Eurasian and SSA at the periphery. West Asians are West Eurasians with, at the southern edges, a significant amount of SSA, and, around Turkey, a pretty significant amount of Central Asian.

Anyway, as regards Sardinians, I specifically said we really shouldn't be using them as a "type" for the EEF, because they have additional ancestry and then drift and selection plays a role. I was just reacting to some things I saw on the web using some very fair, obviously mainland mixed people, to stand as the "type" for the EEF, and trying to suggest you should at least need to use those who might have an older "phenotype". I didn't mean to imply all Sardinians look like that. Some don't look any different than mainland Italians.

Sardinians:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Sardinians.jpg

1st row:Sergio Atzeni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Atzeni) – Caterina Murino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterina_Murino) – Pasquale Tola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasquale_Tola) – Ampsicora (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ampsicora&action=edit&redlink=1) – Comita I de Lacon-Zori (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comita_I_de_Lacon-Zori&action=edit&redlink=1) 2nd row: Eleonor of Arborea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonor_of_Arborea) – Joseph Toronto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Toronto) – Paola Antonelli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paola_Antonelli) – Enrico Berlinguer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Berlinguer) – Pinuccio Sciola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinuccio_Sciola)
3rd row: Giovanni Antonio Sanna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Antonio_Sanna) – Francesco Cossiga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga) – Antonio Gramsci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci) – Giovanni Matteo Mario (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Matteo_Mario) – Anna Maria Pierangeli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Maria_Pierangeli)
4th row: Gian Luigi Gessa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Luigi_Gessa) – Costantino Nivola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costantino_Nivola) – Marisa Sannia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marisa_Sannia) – Giovanni Maria Angioy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Maria_Angioy) – Francesco Cocco-Ortu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cocco-Ortu)
5th row: Giuseppe Manno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Manno) – Goffredo Mameli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goffredo_Mameli) (Genoese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa) of Sardinian descent) – Salvatore Satta (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salvatore_Satta&action=edit&redlink=1) – Grazia Deledda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grazia_Deledda) – Andrea Parodi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Parodi)
6th row:Pope Hilarius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Hilarius) – Amedeo Nazzari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amedeo_Nazzari) – Antonio Segni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Segni) – Antonio Marras (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antonio_Marras&action=edit&redlink=1) – Leonardo Alagon (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leonardo_Alagon&action=edit&redlink=1)
7th row: Maria Lai (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maria_Lai&action=edit&redlink=1) – Emilio Lussu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilio_Lussu) – Paolo Fresu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Fresu) – Domenico Alberto Azuni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Alberto_Azuni) – Pope Symmachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Symmachus)
8th row: Domenico Ruiu (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domenico_Ruiu&action=edit&redlink=1) – Marianus IV of Arborea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianus_IV_of_Arborea) – Maria Carta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Carta) – Franco Columbu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Columbu) – Giovanni Spano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Spano) – Giovanni Soro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Soro)

Fire Haired14
06-11-15, 01:57
Cause we learn Sardinians are sort of an isolate posters on raciest forums will cherryick whatever image of Sardinians they want. Sardinians are the closest bet as to what EEF looked like. Sure, local evolution can make changes. I've read old-school anthropologist considered Neolithic Europeans were of the Mediterranean physical type. I'd say most EEF looked like South Europeans. There isn't really be much debate on this. Except maybe the northern ones are a source for northern fairness today.

Boreas
06-11-15, 16:41
In Aotosomol DNA perpective, can we call them, purest Meditterranean or South European?
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

According to map Catalans and Sardinians

Alan
06-11-15, 17:19
Cause we learn Sardinians are sort of an isolate posters on raciest forums will cherryick whatever image of Sardinians they want. Sardinians are the closest bet as to what EEF looked like. Sure, local evolution can make changes. I've read old-school anthropologist considered Neolithic Europeans were of the Mediterranean physical type. I'd say most EEF looked like South Europeans. There isn't really be much debate on this. Except maybe the northern ones are a source for northern fairness today.

Back in that time most peole were dark haired, it is not a EEF sign at all. Contrary one of the first Blond and Blue eyed individuals of Europe was an EEF from ancient Hungary.

That todays people with more WHG and EHG are on average fairer based on eye and hair color is merely coincidence by the fact that H&G groups were pushed out towards the edges of Europe (mostly North Europe) by the incoming farmer waves who took the fertile lands of mostly South and Central Europe for themselves. If for whatever reason the EEF groups preffered to live in higher latitude such as North Europe and instead the WHG groups stayed in South Europe, difference between North and South Europe would still have been the same.

Take in mind even the most North European groups have still at least 40-50% of farmer DNA. Not necessary EEF but other forms of farmer DNA.

I still think people are understating the neolithic effect on Europe. I can say with conviction that modern West Eurasian lifestyle and ancestry is directed by agricultural lifestyle.

Angela
06-11-15, 18:41
In Aotosomol DNA perpective, can we call them, purest Meditterranean or South European?
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

According to map Catalans and Sardinians

If we had the exact percentages for this it would be interesting to compare it to the EEF numbers from the new PUNT ancient dna calculator. Just going by the map, though, I don't think "Southern European" equals EEF, although southern Europeans have more EEF than northern Europeans do...

On that calculator I've seen scores of about 48% EEF from a Portuguese and a Tuscan, 46% for the south French, but even north Germans are getting about 38-39%, so the swing in variation really isn't as big as I expected.

"Southern European" contains other elements, including the "teal" type component (as per the PUNT calculator)that is also present in northern and eastern Europeans (although it's quite a bit lower in Iberians), and what the creator of the Punt calculator calls "Near Eastern". I'm not quite sure how to interpret the latter. Some northerners get only 1% of that, but others get around 3-4%. Some southerners, including the Portuguese, are getting 10% or more, as are Italians. It would be interesting to see some Greek scores. I thought maybe it was more modern, but I don't know anymore, because Stuttgart already had it at 13%.

Ed. Interesting as per the map the difference between Aegean Turkey and the rest of it. I wonder if that's an old distinction, with the Aegean having been its own cluster for thousands of years, or if it's due to modern relocations, or both.

Sile
06-11-15, 19:35
Back in that time most peole were dark haired, it is not a EEF sign at all. Contrary one of the first Blond and Blue eyed individuals of Europe was an EEF from ancient Hungary.

That todays people with more WHG and EHG are on average fairer based on eye and hair color is merely coincidence by the fact that H&G groups were pushed out towards the edges of Europe (mostly North Europe) by the incoming farmer waves who took the fertile lands of mostly South and Central Europe for themselves. If for whatever reason the EEF groups preffered to live in higher latitude such as North Europe and instead the WHG groups stayed in South Europe, difference between North and South Europe would still have been the same.

Take in mind even the most North European groups have still at least 40-50% of farmer DNA. Not necessary EEF but other forms of farmer DNA.

I still think people are understating the neolithic effect on Europe. I can say with conviction that modern West Eurasian lifestyle and ancestry is directed by agricultural lifestyle.

In Haak's paper , in the period of 4500BC to 6000BC , central Germany/central europeans where 95% EEF as per LBK_EN

Let's not start history at BB or CW times just to show WHG was in the places noted above !

MOESAN
06-11-15, 21:06
wow!

- Sardinians (I saw someones and red a lot about them) are the darkest people (%s an extreme shades) in Europe, along with Cyprians and Southern Portugueses, darkest than in some parts of today Turkey and even Armenia
- as said, they are not all on the same bones and flesh model, as everywhere even if less variated than other regions, but dominantly a short dolichocephalic slender (but athletic enough) bodied populations, what was named 'mediterranean' prototype, by generalization - in fact 'mediterraneans' spann diverses types, and as in Portugal, some of the Sardinians show an "archaic" type, with receding frontal, strong browridges, low implanted hair on front, strong cheekbones, ruggish facial traits, and a large shouldered long trunked long armed body with curved short legs: this type according to old scholars would have been more present among the archaic region of the island; but other dolichocephalic types of same darker complexion have steeper frontal, less ruggish face, shorter trunk and longer legs, in some way, closer to arabish 'mediterranean'; I don't speak here of other tendancies, less typical; I know a lot of person consider that every dark pigmented europoid is of the same recent root, what is an error ( Near-East knows a lot of pigmented types of same far far origin, but having evolved separately a long enough time before mixing again;
- so, some skeleton types among today Sardinians (and Portugueses, more than among other southern regions) show features recalling some 'capelloid' or 'brünnoid' HG's inherited types! history of crossings and re-selections of types in not a long steady river! I know: stereotypes are stereotypes! Sardinia even if basically more EEF, is not a pure EEF result (yet EEF was not 100% monolithic)
- I thank Fire Haired but I avow I have not understood what kind of criteria Americans ('Anglos') have to qualify somebody "white" or "not-white" speaking about Europeans
- that said, VERY dark pigmentation of hairs and eyes seems truly a EEF trait (at first sight!), along with 'olive-white' skin; the fact some Farmers of Hungary taken in a bunch of folks show mutations concerning hair and eye very not a proof that this trait was frequent among first Farmers. I think more by intuition and also based upon last results concerning Steppes that the depigmentation process, possibly begun among farmers, took strength in Eastern Europe more than in Western Europe, and was, for some reason I don't know for now, possibly later passed to HGs of East and through to Hgs of North Europe. That said other mutations can be in play for North...
-I confess I'm not sure of the validity of often red and heard explanations about natural selection, and the today difference in pigmentation concenring Eurasia - more complicated than believed - between North an South Europe, is hardly explicable by natural pressure and selection; that said, the skin colour difference, more submitted to selection I think, is small enough! I would be glad if Americans could see the "bottom" of the most of "not-white" people from Near-East: they would be surprised how fair coloured it is!!! Roughly said, they are "whites" - even the majority of Iranians and Afghans!!! In France we have a lot of 'Beurs', second generation of diverse "arabic" northafrican lands: when they are living in Strasbourg or Lille they are white enough as a whole!
- concerning selection, we have to remember some features or traits are selected because the genes causing them are linked on the chromosome to other more important genes concerning selection; at least it is a track to follow?
sorry for having been so long

MOESAN
06-11-15, 21:09
I know there is not always total accord concerning genetics, but I red Europe population shows a complicated genetic history far from a North-South scheme, and where natural selection played a tiny role; I'm ready to believe it at least after Paleolithic.

Alan
07-11-15, 01:54
In Haak's paper , in the period of 4500BC to 6000BC , central Germany/central europeans where 95% EEF as per LBK_EN

Let's not start history at BB or CW times just to show WHG was in the places noted above !

In what way does this contradict what I said? By 6000 BC you still had WHG groups in Central Europe. Prior to that you still had only WHG groups who were predominantly dark with light eyes in Central Europe as well Iberia. That does indeed support my argument.

Alan
07-11-15, 02:10
I therefore think it's perilous to assume that the Sardinians can be held to be a perfect physical representation of the ancient EEF. More importantly, if you're going to do that, I think it's best to look at the typical or average Sardinian, and particularly those from inland, isolated regions.




My method to "pinpoint" the EEF look is to find phenotypes of Sardinians which I find show some cranial and other resemblences to other "isolated farming groups". Or groups with also high EEF ancestry. As example if I see a German, Scandinavian, British or Iberian person who I think could pass as an individual from another group with very high farmer ancestry and his cranial is rather associated with farming cultures. I expect this to be some sort of farmer look.


As example

When I saw this image of Raul in Qatar with an Qatari I instantly thought both look like at least 80% of their ancestry is the same.

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/PressPoint/images/49501-olympic-image1.jpg


This Sardinian boy, Iraqi guy who looks and is probably a mix of Eastern and Southern farmers, and Benzema look quite similar in cranial and many other features.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4981704205_86f2bb643f.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8e/fe/e8/8efee82d680677cc9a8370c852cb6466.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-e6eYoCcAAU3PK.jpg:small
http://golazogoal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/benzema.jpg

Xabi Alonso, reconstruction of neolithic farmer from britain and random Lebanese Guy.
http://www.tz.de/bilder/2014/06/21/3645424/1961692379-xabi-alonso-1yKvvLuvh1ef.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/17/article-2525035-1A2418AB00000578-695_634x467.jpg
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p400897/6a01156f68db9c970c0120a5a48c5a970b_800wilebaneseme n.jpg


The same game with females. This Sardinian girl reminds me allot of some Circassian girls I have seen.

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/a-giorgia-palmas-0.jpg

This Sardinian and Circassian females look also quite similar. Circassians have around 10% EHG therefore unlikely that the similarty is based on the WHG ancestry. And Sardinians have close to non Teal.
http://www.spettegola.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Elisabetta-Canalis.jpg
http://s15.postimg.org/piwmcj5tn/Circassiangirl4.jpg

Thats how I spot these things, I take a European person (since they have most of the EEF ancestry in them) and look if I find a Near Easten/North African equivalent in cranial and some othe physical features. If yes than I account this to EEF ancestry.

Sile
07-11-15, 04:27
In what way does this contradict what I said? By 6000 BC you still had WHG groups in Central Europe. Prior to that you still had only WHG groups who were predominantly dark with light eyes in Central Europe as well Iberia. That does indeed support my argument.

If there was WHG where they found the LBK_EN skeletons ( 30 ) then there was no mix because the LBK is 95% EEF.

Haak had 6 samples ( 4 x G2a and 1 x T1a, 1 x H2 ) and since then another 4 of the 30 found have been analysed with ( 3 x G2a and 1 x T1a ). Clearly in another year when the other 20 are done ( fingers crossed )I doubt the EEF mix will lower much from the 95% it is today.

Meyer 2015 stating these High EEF Neolithic German samples "are not coming from Anatolia", then the path to germany IMO, was north of the black sea and then along the danube river ..............follow fresh water.

Alan
07-11-15, 04:30
Ed. Interesting as per the map the difference between Aegean Turkey and the rest of it. I wonder if that's an old distinction, with the Aegean having been its own cluster for thousands of years, or if it's due to modern relocations, or both.

No not really, I pointed that out to Maciamo, that this is a false assumption about West Anatolia being genetically different/special from the rest. to Maciamo. Not only on the Mediterrean but also some other components. I have compared the Mediterranean component results from Western Turkish samples to other Turkish samples (mostly Central Turkey) they were quite identical. Ironicly Central Anatolian Turkish samples had even ~1% more Mediterranean component than Thracian Istanbul samples.

See her
Turkish_Kayseri 28%
Turkish_Aydin (Southwest Anatolia) 28.2%
Turkish_Istanbul 26.8%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

The difference on the map here seems to be based on the assumption that West Anatolia should have more Greek related ancestry and since Greeks are more Mediterranean... But in realiy Greeks were driven out and most modern "pure" blooded West Anatolians are of the same stock as Central Anatolians.

Alan
07-11-15, 04:51
If there was WHG where they found the LBK_EN skeletons ( 30 ) then there was no mix because the LBK is 95% EEF.

Haak had 6 samples ( 4 x G2a and 1 x T1a, 1 x H2 ) and since then another 4 of the 30 found have been analysed with ( 3 x G2a and 1 x T1a ). Clearly in another year when the other 20 are done ( fingers crossed )I doubt the EEF mix will lower much from the 95% it is today.


Again, I have no idea what you are actually trying to tell me? What has this to do with my comment that modern Central and North Europeans are today more WHG than EEF and it is soley based on the Indo Europeans who brought some fresh WHG (additional to Teal) and diseases with them which killed off many of the farmers and the momentum for other WHG groups to re expand. So I can't quite understand in what way does this contradict my argument? My argument was even if modern Central Europeans were more EEF if they went through the same selection pressure and Vitamin D deficiency in higher latitudes, the result would have been the same. Light hair and pigmentation is not the result of a specific ancestry it's a combination of enviornment, diat and genetics. And we have a Late Neolithic Hungarian sample who is EEF and is the first ancient individual to combine blond hair, blue eyes and light skin. This is a confirmation for this hypothesis, Dienekes also pointed that back than.


Meyer 2015 stating these High EEF Neolithic German samples "are not coming from Anatolia", then the path to germany IMO, was north of the black sea and then along the danube river ..............follow fresh water.

What Meyer states is soley based on his opinion. I am not sure if you know it, but fact is that Suttgart is up to 90-95% identical to Anatolian farmers. One is a theory which might or might not be true, the other a fact. But then even if those EEF farmers really came from the Black Sea (what is quite possible) from where did they start off do you think? Do you believe they are natives of this region? While they are identical to 6000 BC Anatolian farmers in a region where farming started? Obviously they took the root from Anatolia through the Balkans to the north of the Black Sea. That means the north/northwest of the Black Sea would have been a layover.

So do you see why the statement, "they didn't came from Anatolia" is incorrect? I am certanly following fresh water but I don't know if you are.

Angela
07-11-15, 16:05
No not really, I pointed that out to Maciamo, that this is a false assumption about West Anatolia being genetically different/special from the rest. to Maciamo. Not only on the Mediterrean but also some other components. I have compared the Mediterranean component results from Western Turkish samples to other Turkish samples (mostly Central Turkey) they were quite identical. Ironicly Central Anatolian Turkish samples had even ~1% more Mediterranean component than Thracian Istanbul samples.

See her
Turkish_Kayseri 28%
Turkish_Aydin (Southwest Anatolia) 28.2%
Turkish_Istanbul 26.8%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

The difference on the map here seems to be based on the assumption that West Anatolia should have more Greek related ancestry and since Greeks are more Mediterranean... But in realiy Greeks were driven out and most modern "pure" blooded West Anatolians are of the same stock as Central Anatolians.


@Alan,
I don't want to speak for Maciamo, but I think that map is based on the figures for "Mediterranean" from the Dodecad runs. I'm not aware that it's based on any assumptions. I'll take a look at the Dodecad runs myself if I get a chance.

As to phenotype, if your point is that the "Early Neolithic" look has spread far and wide, along with the genes, then I agree. However, it is mixed with other strains, additional WHG in Europe more so than in West Asia, and then ANE in both Europe and West Asia, and that means that depending on the proportions looks differ in the two areas. There's also differing amounts of SSA, and quite a bit of "East Eurasian" in some areas of Europe.

I would also agree that yes, if one sees similarities common to both areas, the early Neolithic peoples may be the source. However, this is not going to be very precise, which was my main point in cautioning against using Sardinians as some sort of exact "type" for EEF, over and above the fact that not all Sardinians look the same, and for those purposes it would be best to stick to inland, isolated areas.

I also believe that it makes sense that you might get closer to what they looked like if you start with the people where EEF is highest, which is, in fact, certain parts of southern Europe, and not West Asia. I think people have tended to look at modern West Asians and worked from there, whereas newer analyses (the PUNT calculator for example) show that EEF is lower in West Asia than in southern Europe. (The EEF "look" can also be found all over northwest and northern Europe, of course, although it may not be as obvious to people because of differing pigmentation. That brings us back to Coon's idea that Nordics are just depigmented-and perhaps slightly altered-Mediterraneans.)

I think that's brought home with some of the examples you posted. The Lebanese man is the most atypical Lebanese I think I've ever seen. The same holds true for a number of your examples. Most North Africans don't look like Benzema etc. largely because of their high SSA, twenty to twenty-five percent in some cases, but also because of the Arabic invasions and perhaps later Neolithic flows. That doesn't take away from your point that we can see the resemblance in some of them to southern Europeans, even if it's obscured in others by additional gene flow.

Also, for what it's worth, neither of the Sardinian actresses you posted is very typical for Sardinia, and most certainly not at all typical for the internal areas where "ancient" phenotypes might persist. They are much more mainland Italian looking, although still heavy in EEF, of course.

I'm not as familiar with Circassians, so I won't insist, although if googling images of folkloric events is at all accurate, the lovely Circassian looking woman is not really typical either.

Alan
07-11-15, 17:03
@Angela

Well I do actually think they are based on assumption, because the Mediterranean component map is based on Dodecad v3 I remember. And in Dodecad v3 there was no specific Anatolian cluster as in Globe13. There was just Turkish_D and Turks and both had ~28% Mediterranean. Taking that into account and seeing how they are identical to the Mediterranean figures of Globe13. We can use Globe13 for this analyses. And in Globe13 we have West Anatolian and Central Anatolian samples and they are identical.

I am not trying to criticize Maciamo for what he did. Back than we didn't had this specfic Anatolian cluster and he assumed that because West Anatolia was once Greek, that this region might have more of the Mediterranean component. But back than even I told him that this is speculativ and some results of West Anatolians I had seen were identical to those in Central Anatolia. But now we have confirmation for that.

So the map is slightly incorrect.



That brings us back to Coon's idea that Nordics are just depigmented-and perhaps slightly altered-Mediterraneans.)


Nordics are definitely just depigmented and slightly altered Mediterraneans. This fact was pointed out even by racist German anthropologists. Who saw the skeletons of Anatolian farmers who looked Robust Mediterranean.

This is also the only logical explanation. Thin, high nose bridges and longer heads are kind of things which are typical to evolve in hotter climate. While in northern, colder latitudes it is more likely that people will adopt to snub/les prominent noses and rounder/broader cranial features. However most modern West Eurasians are a cross of both features.

Fire Haired14
07-11-15, 17:22
None of them look like each other. This is true for most of the world. There is no Sardinian-look.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/cBxgJTiDTkWO6xwADHNhQqc68ehPGeegG2V8LDwMW6qj4N3WNd nOraR421g8aNYjR-LzhB4Ym8dBTVpMXq7AlDR-gnllE0QUrGI5b8N3Z2SOuxAMzAXbOvO7mP9ZpOYitZDFIKEhtt ps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nLg_xKTORzp7WPBYXISFCtRYsBIw3cJCg5dS0TpUfeYILfheQA NOMvdLC-iDGrS_DngQUaA0ua7gIJ_phTv54pKTTjQGsP__7VPeFjVn4dQ9 jFp-07EMHkwwmUU0Jw9j9nrgP0ghttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/9Du4MuexR1emoGSbqlQlTyNcqTxo2kAUv1SObXalSsySteQPFI 8hqZoJPCsMss7Aetf_j0mstMEIK5Mbp72lY2F9zv3_0VyGBspS y9Ryrb6lC73yU-pbSXiR4mwgkzYBTHlWdeUhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/yHCLJc_xJyfOgYqSGsHzWuSzLIUzoSY8VVmMJ6GItCl_m-nI4MA9M7EzTVNIERdndQjfMOs9gE6wLM8hezD9zzoqbQMkkcjD 8WDyNv93OzjE4HXG9x4XZg1jn-jN9w1VC6ihnlYhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/wta6eOJGqkNpAB8Tp8GgvBQLkSpiAgT_O7ScnyfwRyfYuxnhuI 0kW9elrlxF-awEot8ZveJuDenFXLmxnj7Z73cvEy5oVvMGwvZnCF4MKoWm3Gx L7zlSOjY2Q11RozsQUhf54_Yhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ax6d8mEFtJDpkpQCsiSO_o1oHxHTOlmIkwgcx-p4p0obv5r-7H1wtA6iXPyBMIHtZBRBjdCi3-yVQ5_eFVk3VtjLK3f1k4Hjo_LkqINBb3dt8gy5vvhCj_LnW1t8 6KAi3uhqCTshttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/PFf9LK4fGGjsvA5g2_x2p8whYWb_2LsKAF-xswp6wrK4Evamk3gsTOUepn4di5ffWwGPUG9IdHUlY1QFzHk_s eqxwsQaWoxjX94JV_HK4BDjVzu2QsCNHrHVZ4tGcRzDoPHYsg4 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/aMOYHbjkwhBfYoYoTHjwkWEkgfXNqEBRb3ITT5rTYk8o9GmuCg LWJNa7oz3MEpCC87ZR5Sool9W-HiML2J7R7e8ZWtyAnAIyzyuN7u8Hvljjy-p1QbAEGcM_jKvnKoxTV2Lb8Skhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/AjQn9MCJi8s-pDDX1LDQGYNbN1hoqaX6_TJUrupPGA1mZAfMLIP0Cc8EPq729v 8f24hUtvQ07WhrMhJ8l1pf5pBRp8QhCMTEQq1q5beAAWnmxDh6 nlZ3E4XRh0iw5ArlEJC5S_chttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/goEWS29Vd5Bn-eMTDildc1GpEUfugTzqIQSQYklkZ-Oaez6Yfn5JH7Q7ml80TYBwfp4X5jKNCDJoPf8pz0tWmEYK4r7I QG2uaJFnVzryU3u_XscA-lGmScQ3KHYTY6FEhwLqpVAhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DZhCO0AerK5MoN7WUvgMPMFb9qeiexuUNVxqQTbfwbap_II4fO fFGHY5MnwaXdZOgaqqE5FjJrlvKYxtnslZTcsuKD7sNScJMLAO DNo8Yw2VQe3zj3QPcC8rJ0XBF5Mh2wyyAQhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/lyD43jMXBuTuPFDaZRuMUZ646COPm5w7s9FguTw9DXvcJgwJX9 XHv-Vt3tBcBtg7TDoagIM5DJWCgrVX9YmD37A9HNFEecz8VfpLii7e hZUDRLqtnd2mWIMQkfJkTmmeSdWKVrU

Angela
07-11-15, 17:26
In terms of pigmentation, in some studies the Sardinians do have the lowest levels of derived SLC42A5 in Europe, although close to those for some Iberians. In other studies it is some Iberians who have the lowest levels rather than the Sardinians.

7493

7494

This is a map which illustrates the cline quite well.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2013/03/slc45a21.png

This is the distribution of derived SLC24A5:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Geospatial_distribution_of_SNP_rs1426654-A_allele.png

I think a number of factors may be at play. If you take a look at the preprint of the Iain Mathieson paper, the Anatolian farmers were fixed for derived SLC24A5, and about 40% derived for SLC42A5, what used to be called the specifically "European" depigmenting snp. Well, not quite, as it turns out.

The WHG were not derived for it. The EHG, at least from the two samples we have, were in fact derived for it. From the data we have on the Central and Iberian Neolithic, it seems to me that after admixture the levels for derived SLC42A5 actually went down, and particularly in the Iberian Neolithic (the same might be true of the Italian Neolithic but so far we just have Oetzi and a sample from Remedello). This is obscured a bit in the Mathieson et al preprint, in my opinion, because they inexplicably chose to combine the WHG and the EHG, who had very different pigmentation profiles.

See the updated Mathieson et al pre-print here:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477

If I'm correct, and the admixture with the WHG actually "darkened" them a bit, why the rebound in central Europe, but not in Iberia? Is it possible that the "WHG" in central Europe were slightly admixed with the EHG? The whole relationship between the WHG and the EHG needs some clarification, in my opinion. The stats for EHG as a mix of ANE and WHG failed slightly, but there is some relationship, and I think the two (WHG and EHG) get conflated in certain calculators.

Fwiw, I've always found it ironic that the WHG, who plot rather "north" on PCAs, and pull certain modern groups "north" as well, were most probably "darker" than the Anatolian farmers who came from the south-east, and might have made the early farmers slightly "darker" after admixture.

Anyway, this is just speculation. It's just something to think about. I think we need more data before we can definitively say how these changes took hold and spread. It's particularly important to keep in mind that, as I've said again and again, pigmentation is a polygenic trait. As important as derived SLC42A5 is, it's only one snp. I think the TYR snps also deserve some attention.

I do think that it's pretty clear that selection played a part in these changes. We have a new paper out that supports the Mathieson et al proposition that there was selection for reduced height in Sardinians, although Mathieson said, I believe, that it was also selected for in Iberia. The data does show that the Sardinians are shorter than the Anatolian farmers.

Mathieson also states that there was selection against light eyes in southern Europe over time, although I would like to see more data on this. I don't think they've totally figured out how and why light eyes might be beneficial in certain environments and not so beneficial in others. Certainly as to skin pigmentation and alleles that allow for deep tanning it would seem logical that extremely fair skin that won't tan would not be optimal for the burning summer sun of some Mediterranean areas of Europe.

More recent gene flows may also have a part to play. As the map above illustrates, I think, gene flow from North Africa with or even after the Neolithic that might have been enriched by additional flows from SSA might have carried ancestral states for these alleles that have affected pigmentation. Sardinians do show some North African, as do some other parts of southern Europe. I would be willing to wager that the samples from Sardinia that had the lowest derived levels of SLC42A5 were those from areas that had been affected by those specific gene flows.

Sile
07-11-15, 22:36
Again, I have no idea what you are actually trying to tell me? What has this to do with my comment that modern Central and North Europeans are today more WHG than EEF and it is soley based on the Indo Europeans who brought some fresh WHG (additional to Teal) and diseases with them which killed off many of the farmers and the momentum for other WHG groups to re expand. So I can't quite understand in what way does this contradict my argument? My argument was even if modern Central Europeans were more EEF if they went through the same selection pressure and Vitamin D deficiency in higher latitudes, the result would have been the same. Light hair and pigmentation is not the result of a specific ancestry it's a combination of enviornment, diat and genetics. And we have a Late Neolithic Hungarian sample who is EEF and is the first ancient individual to combine blond hair, blue eyes and light skin. This is a confirmation for this hypothesis, Dienekes also pointed that back than.


Genediker has tested these noelithic german famers with 95% EEF and circa 5300BC and they where all blue or green eyed , light skinned and non-freckled people. The hungarian came much later and did not introduce blond-hair , blue eyes etc.



What Meyer states is soley based on his opinion. I am not sure if you know it, but fact is that Suttgart is up to 90-95% identical to Anatolian farmers. One is a theory which might or might not be true, the other a fact. But then even if those EEF farmers really came from the Black Sea (what is quite possible) from where did they start off do you think? Do you believe they are natives of this region? While they are identical to 6000 BC Anatolian farmers in a region where farming started? Obviously they took the root from Anatolia through the Balkans to the north of the Black Sea. That means the north/northwest of the Black Sea would have been a layover.

So do you see why the statement, "they didn't came from Anatolia" is incorrect? I am certanly following fresh water but I don't know if you are.

I should explain what Meyer was referring too, he referred to the neolithic german markers found by haak ( G2a and T1a ) did not come from Anatolia...................
there would definitely be farmers from anatolia who came from there later

Pax Augusta
07-11-15, 23:25
Sardinians:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Sardinians.jpg

1st row:Sergio Atzeni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Atzeni) – Caterina Murino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterina_Murino) – Pasquale Tola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasquale_Tola) – Ampsicora (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ampsicora&action=edit&redlink=1) – Comita I de Lacon-Zori (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comita_I_de_Lacon-Zori&action=edit&redlink=1) 2nd row: Eleonor of Arborea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonor_of_Arborea) – Joseph Toronto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Toronto) – Paola Antonelli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paola_Antonelli) – Enrico Berlinguer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Berlinguer) – Pinuccio Sciola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinuccio_Sciola)
3rd row: Giovanni Antonio Sanna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Antonio_Sanna) – Francesco Cossiga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga) – Antonio Gramsci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci) – Giovanni Matteo Mario (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Matteo_Mario) – Anna Maria Pierangeli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Maria_Pierangeli)
4th row: Gian Luigi Gessa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Luigi_Gessa) – Costantino Nivola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costantino_Nivola) – Marisa Sannia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marisa_Sannia) – Giovanni Maria Angioy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Maria_Angioy) – Francesco Cocco-Ortu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cocco-Ortu)
5th row: Giuseppe Manno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Manno) – Goffredo Mameli (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goffredo_Mameli) (Genoese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa) of Sardinian descent) – Salvatore Satta (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salvatore_Satta&action=edit&redlink=1) – Grazia Deledda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grazia_Deledda) – Andrea Parodi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Parodi)
6th row:Pope Hilarius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Hilarius) – Amedeo Nazzari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amedeo_Nazzari) – Antonio Segni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Segni) – Antonio Marras (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antonio_Marras&action=edit&redlink=1) – Leonardo Alagon (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leonardo_Alagon&action=edit&redlink=1)
7th row: Maria Lai (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maria_Lai&action=edit&redlink=1) – Emilio Lussu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilio_Lussu) – Paolo Fresu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Fresu) – Domenico Alberto Azuni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domenico_Alberto_Azuni) – Pope Symmachus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Symmachus)
8th row: Domenico Ruiu (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Domenico_Ruiu&action=edit&redlink=1) – Marianus IV of Arborea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianus_IV_of_Arborea) – Maria Carta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Carta) – Franco Columbu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Columbu) – Giovanni Spano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Spano) – Giovanni Soro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Soro)

Angela, thanks for sharing this. It's true that some of the Sardinians don't look any different than mainland Italians, but it's true that some people in these pics aren't ethnic Sardinian. Paola Antonelli, the woman in the middle in the second row, was born in Sardinia to Lombard parents. Antonio Gramsci was only half Sardinian. Anna Pierangeli was born in Sardinia to Central Italian parents (Pesaro, Marche). Others could have ancestry from mainland Italy. The isolation of Sardinia is true but sometimes is overestimated.

Angela
08-11-15, 00:01
Angela, thanks for sharing this. It's true that some of the Sardinians don't look any different than mainland Italians, but it's true that some people in these pics aren't ethnic Sardinian. Paola Antonelli, the woman in the middle in the second row, was born in Sardinia to Lombard parents. Antonio Gramsci was only half Sardinian. Anna Pierangeli was born in Sardinia to Central Italian parents (Pesaro, Marche). Others could have ancestry from mainland Italy. The isolation of Sardinia is true but sometimes is overestimated.

Yes, I knew about Gramsci. I also knew that Pierangeli was not a Sardinian surname, but I'd never seen anything to the effect that the parents were newly arrived to the island. It certainly explains the looks of both sisters. I've always thought my mother looked a lot like them, especially Marisa Pavan, but even more beautiful, of course. :)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h3W-_HaKPFc/U0RZD0IhXrI/AAAAAAAAC9k/YxA46urUipA/s1600/1971_deaths_pier_angeli_18_1951.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/ca/fd/fecafd9ba562d6ca6082883e04891ae0.jpg

This is Pavan as she got older. She looks a bit like Jackie Kennedy there.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LhIDRlfhFEc/hqdefault.jpg

People should know that there was some admixture over the years from the mainland, if only from the amount of U=152 there. That's why I tried to stress that you can't just pick any Sardinian and say, there, that's what the unmixed EEF looked like...

Pax Augusta
08-11-15, 02:01
Yes, I knew about Gramsci. I also knew that Pierangeli was not a Sardinian surname, but I'd never seen anything to the effect that the parents were newly arrived to the island. It certainly explains the looks of both sisters. I've always thought my mother looked a lot like them, especially Marisa Pavan, but even more beautiful, of course. :)

They were very beautiful indeed. Pierangeli family (Luigi and his wife Enrichetta Romiti) moved to Sardinia in 1931 or 1932 (some months before the birth of the twins) due to the work of the father who was an architect. But in 1935 they returned to mainland Italy and settled in Rome where they lived 15 years and the twins were pushed into show business careers by their mother. I doubt that the twins (known in show business as Pier Angeli and Marisa Pavan) ever identified themselves as Sardinian. Pier Angeli died 10 September 1971 in Beverly Hills, while Marisa still lives in Paris, France.


People should know that there was some admixture over the years from the mainland, if only from the amount of U=152 there. That's why I tried to stress that you can't just pick any Sardinian and say, there, that's what the unmixed EEF looked like...

I do agree with you. But you know anthrophorums love the extreme simplifications.

MOESAN
08-11-15, 23:00
A lot of contradictions, even in the scientists world - by the way the EEF %s changes in Central Europe according to surveys; auDNA is (today) not an exact science in its whole typlogy even if some segments can accurately be studied -as a whole it works only when comparing populations through the same lents! and initial EEF were already a kind of mix, even if this mix was based upon close enough populations.

MOESAN
08-11-15, 23:36
My method to "pinpoint" the EEF look is to find phenotypes of Sardinians which I find show some cranial and other resemblences to other "isolated farming groups". Or groups with also high EEF ancestry. As example if I see a German, Scandinavian, British or Iberian person who I think could pass as an individual from another group with very high farmer ancestry and his cranial is rather associated with farming cultures. I expect this to be some sort of farmer look.


As example

When I saw this image of Raul in Qatar with an Qatari I instantly thought both look like at least 80% of their ancestry is the same.

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/PressPoint/images/49501-olympic-image1.jpg


This Sardinian boy, Iraqi guy who looks and is probably a mix of Eastern and Southern farmers, and Benzema look quite similar in cranial and many other features.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4981704205_86f2bb643f.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8e/fe/e8/8efee82d680677cc9a8370c852cb6466.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-e6eYoCcAAU3PK.jpg:small
http://golazogoal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/benzema.jpg

Xabi Alonso, reconstruction of neolithic farmer from britain and random Lebanese Guy.
http://www.tz.de/bilder/2014/06/21/3645424/1961692379-xabi-alonso-1yKvvLuvh1ef.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/17/article-2525035-1A2418AB00000578-695_634x467.jpg
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p400897/6a01156f68db9c970c0120a5a48c5a970b_800wilebaneseme n.jpg


The same game with females. This Sardinian girl reminds me allot of some Circassian girls I have seen.

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/a-giorgia-palmas-0.jpg

This Sardinian and Circassian females look also quite similar. Circassians have around 10% EHG therefore unlikely that the similarty is based on the WHG ancestry. And Sardinians have close to non Teal.
http://www.spettegola.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Elisabetta-Canalis.jpg
http://s15.postimg.org/piwmcj5tn/Circassiangirl4.jpg

Thats how I spot these things, I take a European person (since they have most of the EEF ancestry in them) and look if I find a Near Easten/North African equivalent in cranial and some othe physical features. If yes than I account this to EEF ancestry.

thanks for the posts; some of them don't have the very same type - the red bearded man - it recalls me a Basque footballer - is rather closer to ancestral forms; that said yes some ''mediterranean' types remained closer to the archaic types when other, even more gracilized, lost jaw and took forehead bulb, what could have occurred rather in the easstern part of Mediterranea - Benzema is far from the typical 'mediterraneans' of any kind but the young Sardinian is close enough to him at first sight.
your 9° picture man is in between archaic (capelloid side) and "evolved", shows still archaic features, but with darker pigmentation could very well illustrate some kind of western 'mediterranean' of today; but the first EEF were rather on the Coon's 'danubian' type, which apparently, was very far from any archaic type concerning crania ,

Angela is right when she says the most of the time regional types are variated; types have a value when we study statistical presence of absence of certain features and measures in a population and the eventual variation of distribution over time, brutal or smooth - that said, 2 well determined types are sufficient to create a lot of diverse new apparent "types" by crossings and their results in the subsequent populations, crossing-over coming in play to complicate things; we speak as we were thinking a set of cranial features is passed and determined by a pair of alleles; in fact I suppose there are several pairs of alleles implied in this determination of cranial features, acting upon diverse parts of it. It's seems proved for the forehead, by instance. Here I don"t speak about some diseases, some accidental events between fecondation and birth (congenital), and way of life. The hard work is t try to discriminate all these influences, and some chosen pictures cannot help too much

MOESAN
08-11-15, 23:46
'danubian', concerning face, was a bit far from today Eastern 'mediterraneans' too, concerning nose particuiarly. the difference could be explained by more introgression of North-Near-Eastern people or 'cappadocian' (western 'west-asian'?) among today Semitic Near-Easterners; but the difference could be for the most due to hazard selection among farmers of Catal Höyük having headed towards Southern Europe. it's the opinion of some scientists - so the auDNA, before more recent mixings, could have been close enough within first farmers even the ones stayed in Fertile Crescent, knowing our analysis of auDNA is not guaranteed by God.

LeBrok
08-11-15, 23:51
Traits of EEF:
So called Greek nose with full root
Tip of nose pointing rather down than up
Full vertical forehead
Dark hair, brown eyes, with little wave.
Oval head/face
Rounded chin
Slimmer and shorter posture

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/60/d9/4e60d9fac89e10d287d9920801613be4.jpg

Similar to women on first picture in post 1.

Angela
09-11-15, 18:59
'danubian', concerning face, was a bit far from today Eastern 'mediterraneans' too, concerning nose particuiarly. the difference could be explained by more introgression of North-Near-Eastern people or 'cappadocian' (western 'west-asian'?) among today Semitic Near-Easterners; but the difference could be for the most due to hazard selection among farmers of Catal Höyük having headed towards Southern Europe. it's the opinion of some scientists - so the auDNA, before more recent mixings, could have been close enough within first farmers even the ones stayed in Fertile Crescent, knowing our analysis of auDNA is not guaranteed by God.

As you know, I get lost with some of this, so bear with me. :)

I found this in my files labeled as the anthropological types of the Neolithic Anatolians by Angel. Is that true to your knowledge, and whether it is or it isn't could these samples be described this way.

I ask, because I can see the first three in European faces, but much less so in the modern Near East. Even in Europe, however, modern "Mediterranean" phenotypes area a lot more varied than that.

Also, to which picture are you referring here, and which ancestral type?
"thanks for the posts; some of them don't have the very same type - the red bearded man - it recalls me a Basque footballer - is rather closer to ancestral forms"

If, " Benzema is far from the typical 'mediterraneans' of any kind but the young Sardinian is close enough to him at first sight", then to what type do Benzema and the young Sardinian belong, because they look similar to me as well. Do you mean that Benzema is not "Mediterranean" looking but the Sardinian is?

Also, as to your comment that, "your 9° picture man is in between archaic (capelloid side) and "evolved", shows still archaic features, but with darker pigmentation could very well illustrate some kind of western 'mediterranean' of today; but the first EEF were rather on the Coon's 'danubian' type, which apparently, was very far from any archaic type concerning crania", do you mean the atypical Lebanese man below?
"http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p400897/6a01156f68db9c970c0120a5a48c5a970b_800wilebaneseme n.jpg

If that's the case do you mean that he shows a blend of Mesolithic European and Anatolian?

Finally, what do you think of LeBroc's collection of traits and his example? As to one particular, most of the plates of Mediterraneans I've seen actually don't have a vertical forehead. Also, nose morphology has always been problematic for me. How can we tell about soft tissue?

Fwiw, whatever the physical anthropologists may say, when I think Mediterranean this is the face I see...Anna Maria Pierangeli...
http://36.media.tumblr.com/a52a7848946280b9fa20c2a26e9aac30/tumblr_mfdgq2UMX01qcj70eo5_250.jpg