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Fire Haired14
14-11-15, 04:24
I've gotten all my information from this CNN article.

Paris attacks: At least 153 killed in gunfire and blasts, French official says (http://Paris attacks: At least 153 killed in gunfire and blasts, French official says)

But of course this is all over the news and all of you already heard of it. You can post your thoughts here.

What I've learned from the article is that on Friday 11/13/2015 in and around Paris.

>2-3 men dressed in black, with no face coverings, and with AK 47s shot and killed over 100 people in Bataclan hall of Paris.
>There were also Bombings in Stade de France, a northern suburb of Paris. At least some were suicide bombings.
>In total 6 shootings and 3 bombings in Paris area today. The article didn't give details where all bombings and shootings took place. Over 150 dead have been found so far.

Meanwhile in a refugee camp in France caught on fire: Calais migrant camp 'on fire' as France reels from Paris terror attacks (http://Calais migrant camp 'on fire' as France reels from Paris terror attacks). My guess is the fire was commited by angry French as a response to killings in Paris.

I'm disappointed in some quotes I've seen from world leaders. It's all generic "My condolences to France" and "Peace to the world". What they should be saying is "We need to kill anyone involved in anyway. And prevent this from happening again". They have no aggression.

IMO, there's no doubt this was done by Muslim terrorist. This attack hurts Europeans and Muslim immigrants/refugees. It hurts European in that innocent people are threatened and killed. It hurts Muslim immigrants/refugees in that European countries are more likely to instate strict laws on access to their countries, which will not allow Muslims simply looking for a better life to live in European countries.

Hopefully this attack will wake-up Europe. Countries like Germany are gullible and too open to refugees. Wanting your country to be safe or well of economically, doesn't make you anti-Muslim it makes you smart.

EDIT: BBC is giving very good coverage: Paris Attacks live coverage (http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-34815972)

Here are all of the attack sites and amount found dead or injuried in the sites.

Bataclan: at least 100 dead, seven people in a critical condition, four others injuredRue Charonne: 19 dead, 13 people in a critical condition, 10 others injured
Rue Bichat: 14 dead, 10 in a critical condition, 10 others injured
Avenue de la Republique: Four dead, 11 in a critical condition, 10 others injured
Stade de France: four dead, 11 in a critical condition, 39 others injured
Rue Beaumarchais: three people in a critical condition, four others injuries

Rethel
14-11-15, 04:33
Meanwhile in a refugee camp in France caught on fire: Calais migrant camp 'on fire' as France reels from Paris terror attacks (http://Calais migrant camp 'on fire' as France reels from Paris terror attacks). My guess is the fire was commited by angry French as a response to killings in Paris.

And this is very wrong - but this is only a result of stupid and blindy madness politics from many years.



IMO, there's no doubt this was done by Muslim terrorist. This attack hurts Europeans and Muslim immigrants/refugees. It hurts European in that innocent people are threatened and killed. It hurts Muslim immigrants/refugees in that European countries are more likely to instate strict laws on access to their countries, which will not allow Muslims simply looking for a better life to live in European countries.

I am fully agree.


Hopefully this attack will wake-up Europe.

But I am affraind, that this wake up will be with no happy ending either for muslims, and either for us...:sad-2:

Alan
14-11-15, 05:19
my thoughts are with the families of the victims. 150 dead people. And this after the recent loses of ISIS. They must be very desperate and on the end.

Alan
14-11-15, 05:23
Meanwhile in a refugee camp in France caught on fire: Calais migrant camp 'on fire' as France reels from Paris terror attacks (http://Calais%20migrant%20camp%20%27on%20fire%27%20as%20F rance%20reels%20from%20Paris%20terror%20attacks). My guess is the fire was commited by angry French as a response to killings in Paris.

I know the people are angry but that is not the right way. The refugees fled from ISIS. And I bet my last cent that the terrorists, just like the Hebdo terrorists are not refugees but radicalized residents mostly from African countries.

Fire Haired14
14-11-15, 06:08
I know the people are angry but that is not the right way. The refugees fled from ISIS. And I bet my last cent that the terrorists, just like the Hebdo terrorists are not refugees but radicalized residents mostly from African countries.

I agree. But I still think this event should lead Germany and other to have stronger borders. Vast majority of refugees are fleeing war but a significant enough minority wants to bring war. A US anti-terrorism official suspects the terrorists were from Syria or Iraq. You living in Germany, are you going to ave second thoughts about going to any big gathering of people?

Fire Haired14
14-11-15, 06:17
Here are a few meangliss quotes responding to the attacks....

U.S, President Barack Obama

This is an attack not just on Paris, not just on the people on France, but an attack on all humanity and the universal values we share

U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter

an assault on our common human dignity.

bicicleur
14-11-15, 09:49
I know the people are angry but that is not the right way. The refugees fled from ISIS. And I bet my last cent that the terrorists, just like the Hebdo terrorists are not refugees but radicalized residents mostly from African countries.

it is very sad that this happens but I can tell you, in Calais there are zero refugees, only adventurers and fortune seekers
genuine refugees can apply for refugee status in Europe and if granted, they will not be send back
in Calais there are only people trying to get to illegality in the U.K. because they know that if they would apply refugee status they have no chance to get it
the camp in Calais should have been cleaned allready long time ago
it shows the incompetence of European governments to handle this stream of so-called refugees
it is very sad that this happens but I understand the frustration of many Europeans

bicicleur
14-11-15, 09:54
Here are a few meangliss quotes responding to the attacks....

U.S, President Barack Obama


U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter

this was about to happen
the attack on the Thalys train from Brussels to Paris failed
but you could be quite certain other attempts would follow
now politicians are reacting as if this comes out of the blue

Angela
14-11-15, 17:18
I don't think we know yet whether the perpetrators were recent "refugees" or long time residents. or even French born citizens radicalized into Muslim extremism. My instinct, given that they were speaking in French, their evident familiarity with Paris, and the fact that supposedly more than 1000 French residents went to Syria to join ISIS, is that they are French residents.

It is even more tragic in a way if that is the case. Somehow, a lifetime spent in the west has failed to result in any meaningful assimilation.

I would agree that this doesn't bode well for the acceptance of "refugees" in Europe, however. While a country may have home grown terrorists, who would want to import unvetted people when some, at least, might also be terrorists?

It's just terrible what is going on. Are Europeans really prepared to see their countries turn into Lebanon or Afghanistan or Iraq, and their cities into Beirut and Baghdad?

The really difficult question, however, is what are they, what is the west, going to do about it, not only internationally, but internally?

Angela
14-11-15, 17:31
I've just heard that one of the terrorists was indeed a French national.

bicicleur
14-11-15, 19:39
I've just heard that one of the terrorists was indeed a French national.

one of the 8 terrorists in Paris would be a man with French Nationality who became ISIS fighter and returned to France last month via Greece as a 'Syrian refugee'

two or three would be from Molenbeek, I'm totaly not surprised
Molenbeek is a Brussels suburb with North African Muslim majority
there is high unemployment, but that is mainly because of a very generous social security and lasser-faire
some places are ghettos and it is a safe haven for criminals
this is the kind of electorate that guaranteed the walloon socialist Phillipe Moureaux to be reelected for 20 years till 2012

Yetos
14-11-15, 19:52
Come on Guys

Arena with lions is expecting,

Who burned Rome?
Nero to write his 'Ilias'
Christian to create the 'new world' of Paul?

Who is behind Terror in Paris?
Olant releashed bombers and terrorists, in order to 'close the borders'
Muslims in order to create the new Chaliphate? (new world)

I say Olant is Burning Paris :useless:

@ Rethel
what do you say?

epoch
14-11-15, 21:19
I don't think we know yet whether the perpetrators were recent "refugees" or long time residents. or even French born citizens radicalized into Muslim extremism

At least one of the attackers is a Syrian that was registered as asylum seeker in Greece:

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

Fire Haired14
14-11-15, 23:24
At least one of the attackers is a Syrian that was registered as asylum seeker in Greece:

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

As information is learned how he got the country, Merkel might be accused of being partially responsible for attacks. This attack is a big slap in the face to the ultra-nice and gullable people in Europe who said nothing like this would happen as a result of refugees coming to Europe. Of course I'm not enjoying the attack, but I'm enjoying that this is exactly what was prediced and exactly what many said wouldn't happen.

Tomenable
14-11-15, 23:43
I don't think we know yet whether the perpetrators were recent "refugees" or long time residents

Islamic extremism is even more prevalent among descendants of Muslim immigrants, than among first generation Muslim immigrants:

(according to Maajid Nawaz):

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/13/paris-proves-we-ll-never-kill-enough-jihadists-to-stop-terror.html


Jihadism has well and truly taken root among an entire generation of angry young Muslims. This is particularly the case in Europe, where thousands have left to join ISIS. This insurgency is incredibly hard to tackle, because its recruits remain invisible in our very own societies, born and raised among us, fluent in our languages and culture, but full of venom for everything they have been raised into.

(...)

Unfortunately for France, though not unique to it, between 5 and 10 percent (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2122.html) of its population is Muslim. Real, serious problems with economic and social integration prevail in this group, fuelling resentment on a scale that baffles most expert policy makers. Even if hundreds, out of millions, take this resentment to its deadly conclusion, France has a huge problem on its hands, as we saw on Friday. But so do we all.

(...)

Up until now the bitter truth that our Muslim populations have been subjected to decades of sustained Islamist propaganda by those who live among them has gone almost totally ignored. The long term solution cannot continue to ignore this truth, and cannot continue to neglect those few Muslims, and others, attempting to take on this threat within their own communities.

Fire Haired14
15-11-15, 00:15
One attacker has been confirmed to be a recent refugee. ISIS said they were bringing soldiers to Europe, so this shouldn't be a surprise. Yes, some were not recent immigrants, but this was planned by ISIS and they brought soldiers to help with the attack.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-european-leaders-link-terror-threats-to-immigration

Angela
15-11-15, 02:47
Yes, from Hollandes' comments about foreign control it would make sense that one or more of them recently arrived in Europe.

I must say, though, I don't understand why these men had their passports on them. You don't need one to go to Paradise. Unless they were like calling cards. In other words, they were a way of saying, we can come in and get you, and even your own will turn on you.

Or maybe they want to goad the French into going full bore into the Muslim neighborhoods in hopes of fomenting a religious/ethnic war. There's a report that a plot to attack Catholic churches was foiled.

Also seems very sloppy to leave a rental car behind rented to a "real" person who can be picked up and sweated for information.

We'll have to see what the French propose to do now. I hope they don't have any expectations that this American administration will be of any help at all. The President thinks ISIS is contained. If they're contained what could they accomplish if they were unleashed?

LeBrok
15-11-15, 08:01
At least one of the attackers is a Syrian that was registered as asylum seeker in Greece:

https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289
The one who had already french citizenship? Why he didn't fly to Paris?

LeBrok
15-11-15, 08:06
Yes, from Hollandes' comments about foreign control it would make sense that one or more of them recently arrived in Europe.

I must say, though, I don't understand why these men had their passports on them. You don't need one to go to Paradise. Unless they were like calling cards. In other words, they were a way of saying, we can come in and get you, and even your own will turn on you.

Or maybe they want to goad the French into going full bore into the Muslim neighborhoods in hopes of fomenting a religious/ethnic war. There's a report that a plot to attack Catholic churches was foiled.

Also seems very sloppy to leave a rental car behind rented to a "real" person who can be picked up and sweated for information.

We'll have to see what the French propose to do now. I hope they don't have any expectations that this American administration will be of any help at all. The President thinks ISIS is contained. If they're contained what could they accomplish if they were unleashed?
They want to turn Christians against Muslims, and by tone of most posters here they are succeeding. Divide and rule...
Their preferred tactic is to hit places with tourists, to wreck havoc on economy. They've attacked tourists in Tunisia, Tourists from Russia in Egypt, tourists in restaurants in Paris.

Maciamo
15-11-15, 08:19
I've just heard that one of the terrorists was indeed a French national.

Nationality alone can be very misleading information. There are millions of French citizens of Maghreban descent. In this case the man identified was Omar Ismail Mostefai, who is obviously not of ethnic French descent.

When you think that the majority of France's 5 million+ Muslims are poor and have values that clash with French or European values, I am actually surprised that terrorist attacks like this happen so infrequently. The last serious one was on Charlie Hebdo in January. Considering the heavy and constantly increasing tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe, if blood bathes like this do not happen at least once a month it means that the authorities are actually doing a a pretty good job at thwarting other planned attacks. I suppose that most of them are quietly muffled and go unreported so as not to scare the population. Only those that were thwarted in public, like the one in the Thalys train in August, make the news.

Maciamo
15-11-15, 08:31
one of the 8 terrorists in Paris would be a man with French Nationality who became ISIS fighter and returned to France last month via Greece as a 'Syrian refugee'

two or three would be from Molenbeek, I'm totaly not surprised
Molenbeek is a Brussels suburb with North African Muslim majority
there is high unemployment, but that is mainly because of a very generous social security and lasser-faire
some places are ghettos and it is a safe haven for criminals
this is the kind of electorate that guaranteed the walloon socialist Phillipe Moureaux to be reelected for 20 years till 2012


I concur. Molenbeek and some other parts of north and west Brussels are ghettoes of fomenting Islamist extremists. You are right that this is partly possible thanks to the overly generous social security. I explained 4 years ago how the Belgian social security helped fund Islamic terrorism (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26489-Belgian-social-security-funds-Islamic-terrorism).

I am always surprised how lax Belgium can be with immigrants. Brussels Airport is a good example. I have travelled to about 50 countries on all five continents, but nowhere else have I witnessed an international airport where there is no passport check whatsoever on arrival. I have used Brussels Airport for flights from outside Europe dozens of times and not once have I seen a passport control for any passenger from any flight. Anybody can enter the country from anywhere without any control. It's hardly unbelievable, especially after 9/11. In countries like the US and Japan, any foreigner must fill an arrival form (answering questions relating to the purpose of visit, place of stay, etc.) and have their fingerprints and photograph taken.

Maciamo
15-11-15, 08:47
Their preferred tactic is to hit places with tourists, to wreck havoc on economy. They've attacked tourists in Tunisia, Tourists from Russia in Egypt, tourists in restaurants in Paris.

I am not really sure why Islamist extremists would want to destroy the economy of Muslim countries like Egypt and Tunisia. The attacks in Paris were not in particularly touristy neighbourhoods either. I think they just attack places that are easier to access for them.

Fire Haired14
15-11-15, 08:47
Great point Maciamo. French nationality doesn't tell you who the attacker was. Do you think Europe will create stricter laws on crossing borders now?

epoch
15-11-15, 09:11
A second one went via the refugee route

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/665643361748066306


BREAKING: Second suspected Paris attacker very likely to have passed through Greece - Greek government source http://reut.rs/1NT7mPY (https://t.co/dPpsU429SX)

epoch
15-11-15, 09:18
Great point Maciamo. French nationality doesn't tell you who the attacker was. Do you think Europe will create stricter laws on crossing borders now?

The EU can't do that. The EU has treaties which the member states HAVE to oblige to. One of them states that ALL citizens from a war area are allowed asylum - which may never be temporary.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0083:EN:HTML

This will be the end of the EU. Although it will probably linger on for a while, the utter and complete fecklessness of this bureaucratic monster will eventually be the death of it. I hope people on both sides come to their senses and save what can be saved. But that would mean complete dismantling of what exists now and rebuilding it.

Maciamo
15-11-15, 09:28
Do you think Europe will create stricter laws on crossing borders now?

In light of the African and Syrian refugees crises (sub-Saharan African have been crossing the Mediterranean in large number for many years) there should be more controls on the outer borders of the EU and Schengen Zone, but it would be futile to reinstate border checks between Schengen Zone countries. They should especially reinforce sea patrols along all the Mediterranean coasts.

But that's just a way to curb the immigration problem. Islamic terrorism is usually "home-grown". Almost all attacks in Europe over the last 15 years were perpetrated by Muslims born and raised in Europe, typically in impoverished ghettos.

There are two distinct problems:

1) The social and financial pressure caused by the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants and refugees from Africa and the Middle East, and the difficulty to integrate them economically, socially and culturally.

2) The problem caused by second or third generation (chiefly Muslim) immigrants who couldn't integrate.

I doubt that a lot of recently arrived immigrants are going to become terrorists, because they arrive full of hope for their future. When their hope turn in disillusion, they pass their resentment on their impressionable children, who grow up resenting the whole host country. It only takes a few smooth-tongued Islamic extremists to turn those disgruntled second generation youths into terrorists.

Unfortunately the source of the problem is that immigrants and refugees come to Europe with unrealistic hopes, imagining that they will live dream lives like Westerners they see in Hollywood movies, driving expensive cars and dining at Paris's finest restaurants. Even when they aspire to regular middle-class lives, most of them cannot reach that level because they arrive with very little education and do not speak the local language properly or at all.

Many Maghrebis who grew up in "ghettos" in Belgian or French cities still speak with a strong Arabic accents even after two or three generations (especially men; for some reason women seem to lose their accent more quickly). Unfortunately for them the Arabic accent is one of the worst sounding foreign accents in French. The harshness of Arabic clashes with the softness and delicacy of proper Parisian French. And like everywhere else people are judged by their accents. So when a Moroccan French turns up for a job interview with an irritatingly harsh accent, it is no wonder that his chances aren't the same as those of another 2nd generation immigrant, say from sub-Saharan Africa or India or East Asia with a much milder accent.

It's not even a matter of religion. Turkish, Indian and Indonesian Muslims seem to adapt much better in Europe than their North African counterparts. Actually, almost all terrorists attacks in Europe over the last 15 years were of Arabic descent. In the Netherlands there are about as many people of Indonesian, Turkish and Moroccan descent (about 400,000 each), but the Moroccans seem to be causing most of the problems, like torching cars. Germany has 4.5 million Muslims, almost as much as France, and yet no terrorist attack or car torching have taken place there like the the Benelux, France and Spain. Why ? Most Muslims are of Turkish descent. Ethnicity does matter, and in fact it appears to matter more more integration and risk of terrorism than religion alone.

epoch
15-11-15, 09:39
The one who had already french citizenship? Why he didn't fly to Paris?


Great point Maciamo. French nationality doesn't tell you who the attacker was. Do you think Europe will create stricter laws on crossing borders now?

Omar Ismail Mostefai did not enter the EU via the refugee route. The two migrants are a Syrian and an unknown. An Egyptian passport was found. But that may off course be a false one. They were however found on the suicide bombers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-attacks-syrian-passport-found-on-body-of-suicide-bomber-at-stade-de-france-a6734491.html

epoch
15-11-15, 09:48
But that's just a way to curb the immigration problem. Islamic terrorism is usually "home-grown". Almost all attacks in Europe over the last 15 years were perpetrated by Muslims born and raised in Europe, typically in impoverished ghettos.



I doubt that a lot of recently arrived immigrants are going to become terrorists, because they arrive full of hope for their future. When their hope turn in disillusion, they pass their resentment on their impressionable children, who grow up resenting the whole host country. It only takes a few smooth-tongued Islamic extremists to turn those disgruntled second generation youths into terrorists.

You still buy that radicalization scenario? I don't. Furthermore, if you see how quick the Arab spring devolved into a Islamistic revolt you can get an impression on how many of the refugees, who flee Assad, actually are Islamistic. Not necessarily active terrorists. But sympathetic. The guy that got kicked in Hungary and then got an application at Real Madrid supports Jabhat al Nusra, for instance. That is al-Qiada. The denial of the new York Times is a lovely piece and a nice example of Lugenpresse, as it basically proofs the opposite:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/world/europe/syrian-refugee-tripped-in-hungary-denies-extremist-ties.html


Those rumors appear to be based on misinterpretations of two posts on Mr. Mohsen’s Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005458094105): an image of a black banner with the Muslim declaration of faith known as the Shahada (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahada), which states “There is no god but God, and Mohammad is his prophet;” and a status update from late 2013 (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=177556485769620&id=100005458094105) in which he expressed admiration for Sunni Muslim rebels fighting the Assad government.

Yetos
15-11-15, 11:04
1 of the terrorists enter via Asylum seekers from Grecce
It is certified by Greek police

HE ENTER GREECE 3 OCTOBER 2015,
HE PASSED FYROM SERBIA CROATIA and finelly reach FRANCE

he was recorded at island of Leros,
he had Syrrian passport,
and was written 3 days after international and EU inform
Each person pass the EURODOCK need 3 days minimum to exam his papers and coreespond all EU states plus international organizations like Interpol, or European organization for Safety,

Nobody respond negative, so he took Eurodocuments

the total number of refugges or INVADERS has overpass the 850 000 at 2015 only in Greece,
from them more than 720 000 took Europappers
with the dead is unknown the number of refugges/invaders,

PS
THE ABOVE IS AN ANSWER TO THOSE WHO ACCUSE GREECE WITH POSSIBLE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE WAVE THAT PASSED TO SERBIA and from there to central Europe
AS YOU SEE HE WAS REGISTERED,
ALTHOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME MIGHT ESCAPE THE BORDER POLICE,

ok Piro and Lebrok? he was registered.

epoch
15-11-15, 11:24
1 of the terrorists enter via Asylum seekers from Grecce
It is certified by Greek police

HE ENTER GREECE 3 OCTOBER 2015,
HE PASSED FYROM SERBIA CROATIA and finelly reach FRANCE

he was recorded at island of Leros,
he had Syrrian passport,
and was written 3 days after international and EU inform
Each person pass the EURODOCK need 3 days minimum to exam his papers and coreespond all EU states plus international organizations like Interpol

Nobody respond negative, so he took Eurodocuments

the total number of refugges or INVADERS has overpass the 850 000 at 2015 only in Greece,
from them more than 720 000 took Europappers
with the dead is unknown the number of refugges/invaders,

PS
THE ABOVE IS AN ANSWER TO THOSE WHO ACCUSE GREECE WITH POSSIBLE RESPONSIBILITY TO THE WAVE THAT PASSED TO SERBIA and from there to central Europe
AS YOU SEE HE WAS REGISTERED,
ALTHOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME MIGHT ESCAPE THE BORDER POLICE,

ok Piro and Lebrok? he was registered.

According to Reuters' twitter account a second has been confirmed.

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/665643361748066306

bicicleur
15-11-15, 11:26
The one who had already french citizenship? Why he didn't fly to Paris?

do you think it is that easy?
you go to Syria as ISIS fighter
and then you come back to Paris by plane and say 'I killed some people in Syria and hello, here I am back'

no this man simply switched identity probably somewhere in Turkey
instead of ISIS fighter he became 'Syrian refugee'

sorry LeBrok, I think you have no idea what is going on in Syria and here in Europe

bicicleur
15-11-15, 11:41
The EU can't do that. The EU has treaties which the member states HAVE to oblige to. One of them states that ALL citizens from a war area are allowed asylum - which may never be temporary.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0083:EN:HTML

This will be the end of the EU. Although it will probably linger on for a while, the utter and complete fecklessness of this bureaucratic monster will eventually be the death of it. I hope people on both sides come to their senses and save what can be saved. But that would mean complete dismantling of what exists now and rebuilding it.

I agree. To many big principles and rights have been guaranteed in laws and conventions without any common sense. These laws have been made by people living in an ivory tower.

arvistro
15-11-15, 12:03
Paris - Facebook goes tricolor.
Beirut - nobody cares.
Russian tourist plane - Charlie Hebdo makes caricature.

bicicleur
15-11-15, 13:17
Paris - Facebook goes tricolor.
Beirut - nobody cares.
Russian tourist plane - Charlie Hebdo makes caricature.

to many in Europe simply ignore what is happening
if Europe itself is not victim, no reaction
facebook will be tricolore for one week
and then forget again

epoch
15-11-15, 13:33
I agree. To many big principles and rights have been guaranteed in laws and conventions without any common sense. These laws have been made by people living in an ivory tower.

That directive I linked to has potentially devastating consequences. For instance, should Pakistan descend into civil war - not imminent but also not completely unthinkable - all 160 million inhabitants have the right on asylum.

kyrani99
15-11-15, 15:29
Here are a few meangliss quotes responding to the attacks....

U.S, President Barack Obama: This is an attack not just on Paris, not just on the people on France, but an attack on all humanity and the universal values we share


U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter: an assault on our common human dignity.


I find these comments distasteful to say the least.

Firstly humanity is made up of two opposites. The humane and the inhumane. There are no shared values or dignity.

And secondly, are there faceless people behind the terrorists?

In the US, the hijackers may have been Arab/muslims but the building were powerdered up for controlled demolition by corrupt Americans. And the reasons, as we saw with hindsight, had more to do with a Patriot Act and the stripping of Americans with democratic rights and freedoms and giving extraordinary powers to police, much more so than a war of aggression for oil.

So is there a political agenda here? It seems like a senseless act of terrorism but it happened at the time where there was some sporting match between Germany and France. Is this coincidence or could the people behind it be trying to send some message of some sort? I don't know what if any because I don't understand the politics enough.

bicicleur
15-11-15, 15:32
That directive I linked to has potentially devastating consequences. For instance, should Pakistan descend into civil war - not imminent but also not completely unthinkable - all 160 million inhabitants have the right on asylum.

I know. It is selfdestructive stupidity.

bicicleur
15-11-15, 15:37
In the US, the hijackers may have been Arab/muslims but the building were powerdered up for controlled demolition by corrupt Americans. And the reasons, as we saw with hindsight, had more to do with a Patriot Act and the stripping of Americans with democratic rights and freedoms and giving extraordinary powers to police, much more so than a war of aggression for oil.


what a phantasy
I think your mind is pretty messed up, lady

kyrani99
15-11-15, 15:42
That directive I linked to has potentially devastating consequences. For instance, should Pakistan descend into civil war - not imminent but also not completely unthinkable - all 160 million inhabitants have the right on asylum.

The problem is not one of asylum seekers but that of opportunists, who use the situation and who may look indistinguishable from a true asylum seeker. How to solve that problem? That is a problem every country is faced with. If we are to continue to be humane people then we need to give help to those who seek help from us, otherwise we descend into the pit with the inhumane. But at the same time we need to be able to discriminate somehow, who is a genuine asylum seeker and who is a criminal looking to take advantage of a bad situation.

Angela
15-11-15, 15:42
Omar Ismail Mostefai did not enter the EU via the refugee route. The two migrants are a Syrian and an unknown. An Egyptian passport was found. But that may off course be a false one. They were however found on the suicide bombers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/paris-terror-attacks-syrian-passport-found-on-body-of-suicide-bomber-at-stade-de-france-a6734491.html

The Egyptian passport has been traced to someone who is in intensive care in a hospital.

I don't know how many "real" identities will ever be attached to most of these people. The passports found seem to be "false". Others weren't even carrying passports, and there's not much left of some of them for identification purposes. The only reason we know the identity of the French national is because they found a finger and he had a criminal record.

Some of these people may actually be Syrians, some might be French nationals sneaking back into the country. Who knows or will ever know? The point is that because these migrants weren't vetted or can't be vetted, the borders are essentially open.

Europe has to figure out what to do about it. I just saw a French senator on CNN saying that the EU should concentrate on building up patrols in the Mediterranean, and sending as many people back as possible. Is that even possible under EU rules, however? I don't think so. I suppose the rules can be changed, but if they want to do that they'd better get busy. Also, what to do about the people who are already here? Do they even know where they are so that some attempt could be made to vet them?

Angela
15-11-15, 15:46
what a phantasy
I think your mind is pretty messed up, lady

Amen. Reality isn't bad enough; we need bizarre conspiracy theories.

kyrani99
15-11-15, 15:50
what a phantasy
I think your mind is pretty messed up, lady

What fantasy do you see?
I am not alone in saying this. It is now the opinion of many engineers. The fire being too hot for the structural steel isn't accepted anymore by many professional people, who understand about such constructions, and then there was the building that wasn't even hit. What about that?

There is no denying that the building came down in controlled demolitions. That can't happen without explosives being planted on every other floor or so and it can't happen overnight. How could that be done by any outsiders? It would have taken a year or more in order to be unseen. Can you think of any way?

Furthermore the results were wars so mythical "weapons of mass destruction" that were never found. AND the patriot act that has affected almost every country in the world.

Yetos
15-11-15, 16:10
According to Reuters' twitter account a second has been confirmed.

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/665643361748066306


Until now nothing official
Reuters is spreading rumors,
in the first case,
All procedure ws done according EU laws and directives,
so that means that the chaance of terrorists pass as refugges is 1/800 000
but that is until now,
Anyway officially Greece and Frontex had warned about that the rest of EU,

something strange is the role/part of a woman,
something Big might break, cause as it seems some international organisations for Aid to refugges might be involved,
from I hear and Read all of EU is searching a woman that was in Greece as helper of immigrants/invaders, as member of an organisation,
that is till unofficially,
but it is spread through media,

bicicleur
15-11-15, 16:33
The Egyptian passport has been traced to someone who is in intensive care in a hospital.

I don't know how many "real" identities will ever be attached to most of these people. The passports found seem to be "false". Others weren't even carrying passports, and there's not much left of some of them for identification purposes. The only reason we know the identity of the French national is because they found a finger and he had a criminal record.

Some of these people may actually be Syrians, some might be French nationals sneaking back into the country. Who knows or will ever know? The point is that because these migrants weren't vetted or can't be vetted, the borders are essentially open.

Europe has to figure out what to do about it. I just saw a French senator on CNN saying that the EU should concentrate on building up patrols in the Mediterranean, and sending as many people back as possible. Is that even possible under EU rules, however? I don't think so. I suppose the rules can be changed, but if they want to do that they'd better get busy. Also, what to do about the people who are already here? Do they even know where they are so that some attempt could be made to vet them?

indeed the rules have to be changed, they are made by people living in an ivory tower without common sense

some of these rules are European rules
some of the rules to be changed are the Convention of Geneva which were later amended by the UN

it states that refugees should have full citizenship rights in the country were there refugee status is approved and that this is permanent and irreversible
they also benefit of the same social benefit as the countries inhabitants even though they've never contributed nor worked there before
somebody who asks for refugee status has to be responded asap, which forces a hasty decision by the government

to change these UN rules it would take the agreement of 150 member states
so I guess these rules will stay, but in practice they will become more and more meaningless, as the UN itself
and Europe, it has always tried so hard to be the best pupil in the UN class

epoch
15-11-15, 18:33
The Egyptian passport has been traced to someone who is in intensive care in a hospital.

I don't know how many "real" identities will ever be attached to most of these people. The passports found seem to be "false". Others weren't even carrying passports, and there's not much left of some of them for identification purposes. The only reason we know the identity of the French national is because they found a finger and he had a criminal record.

Some of these people may actually be Syrians, some might be French nationals sneaking back into the country. Who knows or will ever know? The point is that because these migrants weren't vetted or can't be vetted, the borders are essentially open.

Europe has to figure out what to do about it. I just saw a French senator on CNN saying that the EU should concentrate on building up patrols in the Mediterranean, and sending as many people back as possible. Is that even possible under EU rules, however? I don't think so. I suppose the rules can be changed, but if they want to do that they'd better get busy. Also, what to do about the people who are already here? Do they even know where they are so that some attempt could be made to vet them?

Withdraw from the Geneva refugee treaty, or its 1967 expansion to cover the entire world. Denounce everything the EU has signed since.. somewhere around 2005. Rebuild European defenses. Make official denouncements of all the idiots that keep blaming this on how the West or Europe treats the world. In the strongest possible words.

It may seem like the downfall of the EU may not happen but the fact (!) that at least two terrorists came in via the regular asylum way is a time bomb under the EU, as its rules apparently forbids countries to stop these people from coming in. If they want to save the union something need to be done. Eastern-European countries already are rebelling against some of the EU's regulations. There is a rule in politics: What can not continue forever, won't.

O, and make asylum temporary. War gone, you go back.

Fire Haired14
15-11-15, 20:41
A twitter account named PZFeed Ebooks posted about a terrorist attack in Paris two days before it occurred. Their death/injured number is almost exactly what the actual death/injured number was. This is no coincidence!!! The account has been banned by twitter, and hopefully we'll learn how this account knew of the attacks before they occuered and the people who had foreknowledge will be severely punished(executed).

http://i.stack.imgur.com/y0gir.png

epoch
15-11-15, 20:46
A twitter account named PZFeed Ebooks posted about a terrorist attack in Paris two days before it occurred. Their death/injured number is almost exactly what the actual death/injured number was. This is no coincidence!!! The account has been banned by twitter, and hopefully we'll learn how this account knew of the attacks before they occuered and the people who had foreknowledge will be severely punished(executed).

http://i.stack.imgur.com/y0gir.png



Fire, every time an attack is done these things appear. Conspiracy nuts then go on about this. NEVER one can find a direct confirmation. Your bullshitfilter [tm] should get off at this point. The date is easily fotoshopped.

Fire Haired14
15-11-15, 20:58
Fire, every time an attack is done these things appear. Conspiracy nuts then go on about this. NEVER one can find a direct confirmation. Your bullshitfilter [tm] should get off at this point. The date is easily fotoshopped.

It is a real twitter post from November 11.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/30803/did-this-twitter-bot-predict-the-paris-shootings-2-days-before-it-happened

http://www.albawaba.com/loop/debunked-how-twitter-bot-predicted-paris-attacks-768624

I don't trust world leaders in the Democratic world. In school as kids were taught Democracy is the greatest thing ever and our societies are perfect. It hides the fact human nature is evil. Democracy doesn't change that. Our leaders are certainly doing evil things behind closed doors. Why did America and others fund Islamic groups that helped lead to ISIS? Why is Europe blindly letting in millions of Refugees and has such open borders?

epoch
15-11-15, 21:02
There are obviously already a lot of leftists out there trying to blame the hideous west for these attacks. Noah Chomsky's first response to 9/11 was something like that. I never ever took that man serious afterwards.

Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future):


Online radicalisation has been growing – a phenomenon not unlike a sect. A lot of this plugs, of course, into a social and economic context of high youth unemployment, especially in suburbs, and racist discrimination against Arabs and Africans.

New Matilda (Aussie leftist site) (https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-highlight-western-vulnerability-and-our-selective-grief-and-outrage/):


Westerners are finally being given just a small taste of the constant fear that people from other nations have endured for generations.

Some Irish politician: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mick-wallace-criticised-over-tweet-about-paris-attacks-1.2430575

And so forth. The leftists of the west has had a long tradition of considering itself the bogeyman of the world. It has to stop. It sends the message that we are to be taken. We need, strongly need, to counter these people. They have taken this way too far. It signals a green light for attacks such as these.

No longer will I tolerate these people.

Angela
15-11-15, 21:58
There are obviously already a lot of leftists out there trying to blame the hideous west for these attacks. Noah Chomsky's first response to 9/11 was something like that. I never ever took that man serious afterwards. Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future): New Matilda (Aussie leftist site) (https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-highlight-western-vulnerability-and-our-selective-grief-and-outrage/): Some Irish politician: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mick-wallace-criticised-over-tweet-about-paris-attacks-1.2430575 And so forth. The leftists of the west has had a long tradition of considering itself the bogeyman of the world. It has to stop. It sends the message that we are to be taken. We need, strongly need, to counter these people. They have taken this way too far. It signals a green light for attacks such as these. No longer will I tolerate these people.

It's not an either/or situation. I don't see how it can be denied that poor, disadvantaged young men living in ghettos who face discrimination might feel alienated from the larger society and thus be easy prey for this kind of ideology.

On the other hand, Bin Laden was an engineer who was a member of one of the richest families in the world. The 911 bombers were all educated people. A woman was just on CNN, a lawyer, who represents the mother of a 16 year old boy who got radicalized on line and went off to Syria a year ago. The family is Christian, well to do, and the boy was doing well in school.

People are missing the power of "words", of ideology, especially on impulsive and unsophisticated young men, and even more especially on any mentally unstable or alienated people. It doesn't have to be religion either. Nazism and Communism gained their most fanatical adherents in the same way.

Angela
15-11-15, 22:07
I just heard on the news that Belgium has the highest number of people going to be trained in Syria. Is that true, and if so, why is that?

Yetos
15-11-15, 22:27
that is very interesting,

Ahmet Almuhamed

he started from Syria by foot,

he passed
1 Turkey
2 Greece
3 Fyrom/Albania/Bulgaria (1 of 3 is needed)
4 Serbia
5 Croatia
6 Slovenia
7
then Italy to France?
or Austria Swiss/Deutschland to France,

MEANING HE PASSED 7 or 8 Countries

He was 'written'/spoted only in 3
Greece, Serbia, Croatia,

wow 3/7 countries manage to spot him and written him down,
interesting EU security/safety

epoch
15-11-15, 22:42
It's not an either/or situation. I don't see how it can be denied that poor, disadvantaged young men living in ghettos who face discrimination might feel alienated from the larger society and thus be easy prey for this kind of ideology.

Roma and Sinti are far more marginalised in Europe. They face far worse discrimination. The result is a lot of criminal behaviour. Even worse than North-Africans. But they don't deliberately attack innocent civilians in a clear act of war.

Furthermore, I lived in such ghetto's. It is a chosen separation. I also spoke to a lot of these Muslim youths. In the Netherlands, but even in France. One of my best friends used to be an Algerian. I know how this is going. Yes, there is discrimination. But how utterly idiotic do you have to be to start shooting at a Metal concert, who probably are the least discriminating audiences possible? There is NO excuse here.

If anything, these events show that those who disliked the new comers may have been right. I lost friends when they commented on European girls as whores. My Algerian best friend was absolutely not one of them. We nevertheless lost contact.


On the other hand, Bin Laden was an engineer who was a member of one of the richest families in the world. The 911 bombers were all educated people. A woman was just on CNN, a lawyer, who represents the mother of a 16 year old boy who got radicalized on line and went off to Syria a year ago. The family is Christian, well to do, and the boy was doing well in school.

People are missing the power of "words", of ideology, especially on impulsive and unsophisticated young men, and even more especially on any mentally unstable or alienated people. It doesn't have to be religion either. Nazism and Communism gained their most fanatical adherents in the same way.

Exactly.

epoch
15-11-15, 22:58
I just heard on the news that Belgium has the highest number of people going to be trained in Syria. Is that true, and if so, why is that?

I don't know if Arthur van Amerongen's "Brussel Eurabia" is translated in English. But it does describe the process that is currently happening.

Yetos
16-11-15, 00:00
and some still Believe that Nero 'burned' Rome,

like US president did 9/11
like Hollande did Bataclan
etc etc

Fire Haired14
16-11-15, 00:06
Paris - Facebook goes tricolor.
Beirut - nobody cares.
Russian tourist plane - Charlie Hebdo makes caricature.

to many in Europe simply ignore what is happening
if Europe itself is not victim, no reaction
facebook will be tricolore for one week
and then forget again

So true. Because it happened in Europe people are going crazy, while in the same month more died in Nigeria from terrorist attacks. Although France does have more security so this is a bigger deal. People feel self-righteous and patriotic for a week after terrorist attacks then forget about the terrorist attacks. That's what happened with 9/11 in America. It's like someone who after they fail, are pumped up to work hard and prepare for next time, but then give up right away.

And I'm tired of self righteous people just saying "We want Peace" and making the Eiffel tower into a peace symbol. They refuse to blame anyone or to be aggressive. They should saying "Kill ISIS".

Fire Haired14
16-11-15, 00:13
There are obviously already a lot of leftists out there trying to blame the hideous west for these attacks. Noah Chomsky's first response to 9/11 was something like that. I never ever took that man serious afterwards.

Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/14/paris-attacks-leave-france-in-trauma-fearing-for-the-future):



New Matilda (Aussie leftist site) (https://newmatilda.com/2015/11/14/paris-attacks-highlight-western-vulnerability-and-our-selective-grief-and-outrage/):



Some Irish politician: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/mick-wallace-criticised-over-tweet-about-paris-attacks-1.2430575

And so forth. The leftists of the west has had a long tradition of considering itself the bogeyman of the world. It has to stop. It sends the message that we are to be taken. We need, strongly need, to counter these people. They have taken this way too far. It signals a green light for attacks such as these.

No longer will I tolerate these people.

Great post. This is how I see it. "Western" nations in the last several 100 years have made most innovations and became the most powerful in the world. Westerners who reacted to the bad in western society are liberals or Lefitist. They did a lot of good, mostly in creating "Democracy"(technically no nation is a democracy) and emphasis on human rights. But some went too far and grew a hate for Westernism, anything that resembles traditional western culture. In their minds everything is the west's fault. Today the extremist form of lefitism is in many ways our establishment. They're hurting Europe and America, by blindly letting in refugees and not supporting fight against ISIS and others who wish to destroy us.

Fire Haired14
16-11-15, 00:17
People are missing the power of "words", of ideology, especially on impulsive and unsophisticated young men, and even more especially on any mentally unstable or alienated people. It doesn't have to be religion either. Nazism and Communism gained their most fanatical adherents in the same way.

Yep. You can't blame discrimination when they kill 130 people, you have to just say "It doesn't matter what emotional trama or whatever caused these people to be violent, we need to eliminate them". Ethnic minorities or any-type of minority is also going to be discriminated. You can't stop people from looking at Muslims as weird or miss treating them. That's not the primary problem to solve.

epoch
16-11-15, 00:57
Great post. This is how I see it. "Western" nations in the last several 100 years have made most innovations and became the most powerful in the world. Westerners who reacted to the bad in western society are liberals or Lefitist. They did a lot of good, mostly in creating "Democracy"(technically no nation is a democracy) and emphasis on human rights. But some went too far and grew a hate for Westernism, anything that resembles traditional western culture. In their minds everything is the west's fault. Today the extremist form of lefitism is in many ways our establishment. They're hurting Europe and America, by blindly letting in refugees and not supporting fight against ISIS and others who wish to destroy us.

My grandfather was a social democrat. He worked at a mill, and afterwards educated himself. You know why? To become in the same educational sphere as the upper class. Back in the days being left meant elevating the lower class to the same standards of the upper class. I always remember that whenever I hear libertarians speak about the need to take care of yourself: Socialism used to be exactly that.

Nothing of that spirit is left in the current day leftists. They simply follow a script which tries to consider anything non-western as the worlds lower class, which really deserves their revenge on the west.

Tomenable
16-11-15, 05:47
that is very interesting,

Ahmet Almuhamed

he started from Syria by foot,

he passed
1 Turkey
2 Greece
3 Fyrom/Albania/Bulgaria (1 of 3 is needed)
4 Serbia
5 Croatia
6 Slovenia
7
then Italy to France?
or Austria Swiss/Deutschland to France,

MEANING HE PASSED 7 or 8 Countries

He was 'written'/spoted only in 3
Greece, Serbia, Croatia,

wow 3/7 countries manage to spot him and written him down,
interesting EU security/safety

Greek border is unfortunately the most porous of all.

In general - even if not in this particular case.

LeBrok
16-11-15, 08:32
Greek border is unfortunately the most porous of all.

In general - even if not in this particular case.
Why Greeks would bother to stop the flow of refugees, if they all wanted to go to Germany? Greeks did it with vengeance for all the austerity.

bicicleur
16-11-15, 08:58
Why Greeks would bother to stop the flow of refugees, if they all wanted to go to Germany? Greeks did it with vengeance for all the austerity.

do you mean Germany should have thrown Geece out of the EU ?

LeBrok
16-11-15, 09:09
do you mean Germany should have thrown Geece out of the EU ?
No. Just stating the reason why Greece boarders were so porous.

bicicleur
16-11-15, 09:15
I just heard on the news that Belgium has the highest number of people going to be trained in Syria. Is that true, and if so, why is that?

as mentioned before there is a clear link between the Paris attack and Molenbeek, a Brussels suburb
Molenbeek has the highest number of ISIS fighters in Belgium and it is exemplary
the main responsable is Walloon socialist Phillipe Moureaux who was mayor from 1992 till 2012 in symbiosis with the North African Muslim origin population who make up the majority of Molenbeek, among which there are quite a few criminals
Phillipe Moureaux had some green and socialist politicians as complices
it was Phillipe Moureaux who prevented his own police force to act against the criminals
when federal police moved in or when a North African from Molenbeek was prosecuted there were riots in the gettos in Molenbeek and the green and socialist politicians alerted the press and publicly accused federal police officers and prosecuters of racism
it is this lawlesness for 2 decades that created todays athmosphere in Molenbeek
they don't see themselves as criminals, they believe what has been re-iterated so many times in the press : that they are victims of racism
however that is not true
the prosecutors have proven that in most cases they were right, the criminals concerned were finally convicted before court for the facts they were prosecuted for

bicicleur
16-11-15, 09:20
No. Just stating the reason why Greece boarders were so porous.

the same was true in Italy, for Morroccan and African immigrants
now most come from the middle east and Afghanistan, they take the Balkan route
furthermore Greece and the Balkan countries can't coop any more with the sheer numbers after Merkel invited them in

Maciamo
16-11-15, 10:04
as mentioned before there is a clear link between the Paris attack and Molenbeek, a Brussels suburb
Molenbeek has the highest number of ISIS fighters in Belgium and it is exemplary
the main responsable is Walloon socialist Phillipe Moureaux who was mayor from 1992 till 2012 in symbiosis with the North African Muslim origin population who make up the majority of Molenbeek, among which there are quite a few criminals
Phillipe Moureaux had some green and socialist politicians as complices
it was Phillipe Moureaux who prevented his own police force to act against the criminals
when federal police moved in or when a North African from Molenbeek was prosecuted there were riots in the gettos in Molenbeek and the green and socialist politicians alerted the press and publicly accused federal police officers and prosecuters of racism
it is this lawlesness for 2 decades that created todays athmosphere in Molenbeek
they don't see themselves as criminals, they believe what has been re-iterated so many times in the press : that they are victims of racism
however that is not true
the prosecutors have proven that in most cases they were right, the criminals concerned were finally convicted before court for the facts they were prosecuted for

The French-speaking Socialist Party in Belgium is a real mafia. In 2006 I started listing (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/24254-Walloon-socialist-party-in-corruption-scandal-again-!) all the news reported in English about corruption and other scandals relating to the Socialist Party. I stopped because I got fed up. It's just never ending. I am not surprised to find that Socialist politicians like Moureaux colluded with and protected Islamists. After all the Socialist Party is the ruling party in all the Muslim neighbourhoods of Brussels because they actively coveted their votes by turning a blind eye on their criminal activities.

epoch
16-11-15, 11:12
The French-speaking Socialist Party in Belgium is a real mafia. In 2006 I started listing (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/24254-Walloon-socialist-party-in-corruption-scandal-again-!) all the news reported in English about corruption and other scandals relating to the Socialist Party. I stopped because I got fed up. It's just never ending. I am not surprised to find that Socialist politicians like Moureaux colluded with and protected Islamists. After all the Socialist Party is the ruling party in all the Muslim neighbourhoods of Brussels because they actively coveted their votes by turning a blind eye on their criminal activities.

Just read up on the murder of Andre Cools.

epoch
16-11-15, 11:14
do you mean Germany should have thrown Geece out of the EU ?

Not necessarily, but they certainly should have been kicked out of the Schengen agreement and realm. The agreement has plenty of room for such a strict measure, mind you.

EDIT: There still is good reason to do that today. The fact that you don't even read about this possibility is telling.

bicicleur
16-11-15, 11:54
Not necessarily, but they certainly should have been kicked out of the Schengen agreement and realm. The agreement has plenty of room for such a strict measure, mind you.

EDIT: There still is good reason to do that today. The fact that you don't even read about this possibility is telling.

would that help to stop the immigrant stream through Greece?

Victor Orban was cursed and demonised when he started building the fence on the south Hungarian border
now every country in or near the Balkans is building a fence
but you can't build a fence around each Greek island

bicicleur
16-11-15, 12:00
The French-speaking Socialist Party in Belgium is a real mafia. In 2006 I started listing (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/24254-Walloon-socialist-party-in-corruption-scandal-again-!) all the news reported in English about corruption and other scandals relating to the Socialist Party. I stopped because I got fed up. It's just never ending. I am not surprised to find that Socialist politicians like Moureaux colluded with and protected Islamists. After all the Socialist Party is the ruling party in all the Muslim neighbourhoods of Brussels because they actively coveted their votes by turning a blind eye on their criminal activities.

both Flemish and Walloon socialists are loosing autochtonous Belgian electorate - the old socialist generation is dyeing.
they have tried to compensate by allowing massive immigration with voting rights and overgenerous facilities
but socilaists are stronger in Wallonia than in Flanders
nevertheless, it is the first time since I don't know when that Walloon socialists are not in the federal government

Yetos
16-11-15, 15:11
Why Greeks would bother to stop the flow of refugees, if they all wanted to go to Germany? Greeks did it with vengeance for all the austerity.


pfffff

you do not know what you are talking,
no country is a prison,
if immigrants want to go, nobody can stop them,

And this man was registered lebrok,
the rest are borned in your imagination,

nobody accused Greece, that did follow the international standards, except you, Pirro and Hungarians, which in 7 seven stoped, cause 99% that passed Hungary were registered/mark at their entrnce in EU,
besides if you want tell Frontex in Warsaw/Poland that in Greece more than 800 000 until now passed the borders,

THAT IS 10% of population,
IMAGINE IN POLAND ENTER 4 MILLION Russians,

HOW MANY % of Population is needed to guard/inprison feed give medical assistance to 10%? the 3%?
Or you wanted Greeks to shoot and sunk them all?
Just to accuse them after that as Nazi's?

simply Pathetic

kyrani99
16-11-15, 16:37
.
but you can't build a fence around each Greek island

poetic justice!

kyrani99
16-11-15, 16:48
.

like US president did 9/11


US president did not "do 9/11" but possibly two US presidents may have played a part. Given all the evidence 9/11 had to have involved many, many, many corrupt /psychopathic people and not all Americans.

LeBrok
16-11-15, 18:01
would that help to stop the immigrant stream through Greece?

Victor Orban was cursed and demonised when he started building the fence on the south Hungarian border
now every country in or near the Balkans is building a fence
but you can't build a fence around each Greek islandWhat about building a fence on Greek land boarder up North? It would keep all the refugees in Greece till they are processed.

LABERIA
16-11-15, 18:06
What about building a fence on Greek land boarder up North? It would keep all the refugees in Greece till they are processed.

I agree. North-Northwest Greece.

Angela
16-11-15, 18:33
Does anyone think that Greece, or perhaps Italy if the route changes, would be able to handle hundreds of thousands of refugees? Why should it become only their responsibility If the EU means anything, it's an EU problem, and the EU has to find a solution.

One solution was already proposed by an EU official....very heavy patrols in the Med to turn these people back. That's not totally going to work, however, not with that much coastline, although perhaps it should be done.

This is a bit like closing the hen coop door after the fox got in, however. How many hundreds of thousands are already in Europe?

The answer is in Syria and the greater Middle East, but as this morning's press conference showed, Europe is on his own. When President Obama was asked point blank, given that the strategy is not working, whether he would change the strategy, the obfuscating and meandering answer basically boiled down to "No".

The other issue is the radicalization of Muslim youth in Europe. The latest information seems to be that the majority of the terrorists in this latest attack are nationals of European countries (Belgian, a lot of them) who went to Syria and then returned. This is a largely internet problem. I don't know how that can be tackled. Certainly, however, some of it is coming from radical mosques, and something has to be done about them. An ex member of one of these jihadi groups was just interviewed. He said he came from a middle class home, highly educated, and he was radicalized when he joined a religious study group at a mosque which happened to have a lot of extremists in it.

bicicleur
16-11-15, 19:50
Does anyone think that Greece, or perhaps Italy if the route changes, would be able to handle hundreds of thousands of refugees? Why should it become only their responsibility If the EU means anything, it's an EU problem, and the EU has to find a solution.

One solution was already proposed by an EU official....very heavy patrols in the Med to turn these people back. That's not totally going to work, however, not with that much coastline, although perhaps it should be done.

This is a bit like closing the hen coop door after the fox got in, however. How many hundreds of thousands are already in Europe?

The answer is in Syria and the greater Middle East, but as this morning's press conference showed, Europe is on his own. When President Obama was asked point blank, given that the strategy is not working, whether he would change the strategy, the obfuscating and meandering answer basically boiled down to "No".

The other issue is the radicalization of Muslim youth in Europe. The latest information seems to be that the majority of the terrorists in this latest attack are nationals of European countries (Belgian, a lot of them) who went to Syria and then returned. This is a largely internet problem. I don't know how that can be tackled. Certainly, however, some of it is coming from radical mosques, and something has to be done about them. An ex member of one of these jihadi groups was just interviewed. He said he came from a middle class home, highly educated, and he was radicalized when he joined a religious study group at a mosque which happened to have a lot of extremists in it.

about 1 million have allready entered Europe this year and the stream doesn't stop
Europe has a very bad record in integrating immigrants, especially with Muslim background
ISIS fighters are recruited worldwide, it is estimated 25 % are European
the radicalisation started in mosques in Europe funded by Saudi-Arabia
this has been stopped now in Europe but internet is taking over
Saudi-Arabia doesn't want to recieve any refugee, they've proposed their 'contribution' by building new mosques in Germany, thank you very much
Saudi-Arabia has passed a new law now that considers atheism as terrorism, with death penalty for propagating atheism
Saudi-Arabia is still considered an ally by the US. When will they be stopped?
(if not, it is estimated Saudi-Arabia will be bankrupt within 5 years with current oil prices, so problem solved)
George W Bush does have a responsibility in the creation and growth of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, which he considered initialy as allies.
America and Europe have supported the 'Arabic Spring' which was an illusion and created more instability.
Obama prefers to look the other way instead of interfering.
Europe has lost all its fighting spirit since WW II and has been sitting under the American shelter all the time.
If Europe doesn't get his act together quickly it is a sitting duck.
The time to be nice and naive is over.

Yetos
16-11-15, 22:28
I agree. North-Northwest Greece.

No comment,

Yetos
16-11-15, 22:32
What about building a fence on Greek land boarder up North? It would keep all the refugees in Greece till they are processed.


hahahaha

That fence exist from 2004 Olympic games,

only in places that are passable, and not swampy,
that reduce the number of illegal immigrants from 40 000 to 2-4 000 per year,

sory my friend again your acusation are bufff in air,

just tell FRONTEX which is in Warsaw, away from Italy Spain Greece, that the problem is Mediterenean sea,

Yetos
16-11-15, 22:40
OK

THAT IS NEWS

Another Ahmed Al Mohamed is arrested in Serbia today,

the man who was registered in Greece at 3 October at island of Leros
is arested today in Serbia,
the man ask temporary asylum for 3 months from Serbia, when passed Pressevo,

so the passport with the name Ahmed Al Mohamed
WHICH IS SAME WITH ONE IN SERBIA, dates numbers etc
has only different photo,
WHICH MEANS THAT THE DAESH ORGANISATION IS EITHER LUCKY OR USES SAME TECHNIC?
OR IS TOO INTELIGENT AND USES SAME PASSPORT AT GREECE SERBIA CROATIA FRANCE, JUST TO CREATE CHAOS IN SEARCHES

http://news247.gr/eidiseis/kosmos/news/article3773477.ece/BINARY/w660/axm161115.jpg

photo is from Serbian Blic.

SO WHAT IS GOING ON?
DID THE BOMBER PASS THROUGH GREECE?
OR HE NEVER LEFT FRANCE?

OR AN INDUSTRY OF FAKE PASSPORTS IS ON THE LOOSE SOMEWHERE?

PS
I would like one, having my photo and the data of the richest man in the world, :grin:

Yetos
16-11-15, 22:43
about 1 million have allready entered Europe this year and the stream doesn't stop
Europe has a very bad record in integrating immigrants, especially with Muslim background
ISIS fighters are recruited worldwide, it is estimated 25 % are European
the radicalisation started in mosques in Europe funded by Saudi-Arabia
this has been stopped now in Europe but internet is taking over
Saudi-Arabia doesn't want to recieve any refugee, they've proposed their 'contribution' by building new mosques in Germany, thank you very much
Saudi-Arabia has passed a new law now that considers atheism as terrorism, with death penalty for propagating atheism
Saudi-Arabia is still considered an ally by the US. When will they be stopped?
(if not, it is estimated Saudi-Arabia will be bankrupt within 5 years with current oil prices, so problem solved)
George W Bush does have a responsibility in the creation and growth of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, which he considered initialy as allies.
America and Europe have supported the 'Arabic Spring' which was an illusion and created more instability.
Obama prefers to look the other way instead of interfering.
Europe has lost all its fighting spirit since WW II and has been sitting under the American shelter all the time.
If Europe doesn't get his act together quickly it is a sitting duck.
The time to be nice and naive is over.

well I agree partially,

Maciamo
17-11-15, 09:05
Two days ago I was saying this:



When you think that the majority of France's 5 million+ Muslims are poor and have values that clash with French or European values, I am actually surprised that terrorist attacks like this happen so infrequently. The last serious one was on Charlie Hebdo in January. Considering the heavy and constantly increasing tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe, if blood bathes like this do not happen at least once a month it means that the authorities are actually doing a a pretty good job at thwarting other planned attacks. I suppose that most of them are quietly muffled and go unreported so as not to scare the population. Only those that were thwarted in public, like the one in the Thalys train in August, make the news.

And this morning I see in the news that David Cameron admits that 7 Isis plots were thwarted in a year in the UK alone (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/16/uk-thwarts-seven-isis-plots-in-a-year-says-david-cameron). Considering that France is the declared main target for Isis (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/13/paris-attacks-shootings-explosions-hostages) (see quote below) there were probably more thwarted attacks in France than in the UK over the past year.


“France and those who follow her voice must know that they remain the main target of Islamic State and that they will continue to smell the odour of death for having led the crusade, for having dared to insult our prophet, for having boasted of fighting Islam in France and striking Muslims in the caliphate with their planes,” the group said in a statement.

bicicleur
17-11-15, 09:31
the soccer match Belgium-Spain for tonight is cancelled
apearantly security authorities must have picked up some plot
and yes, the situation in Brussels is totaly not under control

Maciamo
17-11-15, 20:07
the soccer match Belgium-Spain for tonight is cancelled
apearantly security authorities must have picked up some plot
and yes, the situation in Brussels is totaly not under control

You may be right about the situation not being under control in Brussels. The Guardian explained (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/terrorists-belgium-paris-attacks) how the Belgian state security only has some 600 employees and its military counterpart has a similar number. This is grossly insufficient for a city that is the seat of the EU and NATo and hosts 2,500 international agencies, 2,000 international companies and 150 international law firms. Why not set up EU-wide secret service and anti-terrorism agencies, each with a main branch in Brussels ? There is already a sort of counter-terrorism coordinator for the EU, but that's an administrative office, AFAIK. What is needed are well-trained troops and spies.

Sile
17-11-15, 22:08
isn't it about time that the EU capital ( brussels) be moved to their other site in Strasbourg where the area can be monitored more efficiently!

As the Flemish say, the lazy French speaking Walloons don't care anything about Belgium.

Angela
17-11-15, 23:16
isn't it about time that the EU capital ( brussels) be moved to their other site in Strasbourg where the area can be monitored more efficiently!

As the Flemish say, the lazy French speaking Walloons don't care anything about Belgium.

That was a totally unnecessary and distasteful remark. I'm sure the Walloons don't want to be killed as they sit in a restaurant or go to a concert or sports stadium.

These kinds of petty ethnic and sub-ethnic divisions are part of what makes it so hard for the EU to get their act together and come up with a clear, coherent, and united policy with regards to immigration and terrorism.

Good job in encouraging more of it.

Maciamo
18-11-15, 08:56
isn't it about time that the EU capital ( brussels) be moved to their other site in Strasbourg where the area can be monitored more efficiently!

As the Flemish say, the lazy French speaking Walloons don't care anything about Belgium.

I agree with Angela that this was an unnecessary remark. Besides Walloons are people who live in Wallonia, and this includes some German speakers. Brussels is itself in Flanders and many French speakers there are Flemings who changed language over the centuries, as French was the official language of the court since the Renaissance (think Charles V of Habsburg, who grew up in Brussels) and of government later on (since the Austrian Netherlands in the 18th century). Many wealthier Walloon families, from the aristocracy to 19th-century industrialists, to modern CEO's moved to Brussels because it is the only seat of power in Belgium. Wallonia was historically richer than Flanders, but got poorer over time since the early 20th century as many of the richer families (and company HQs) moved to Brussels. The process is still happening today. Young ambitious Walloons keep moving to Brussels. The same thing happened in France with Paris. Flanders remained more decentralised like Germany.

The poorest cities of Wallonia, where the corrupted Socialist Party has had its power base for over half a century, are the Mons, Charleroi and Liège. The two latter are also the two largest city in Wallonia. Their population soared during the industrial revolution like Manchester and Birmingham, but in great part due to the influx of South Italian workers who came to work in the coal mines. Nowadays corruption and the success of the Socialist Party run so high in part because of their influence. The latter influx of Moroccan immigrants only fueled the political machine they set into motion and that is today partly responsible for protecting Islamist extremists in poorer districts of Brussels like Molenbeek.

A very big part of Belgium 's economic and political problems, including the rift between Flemish and French speakers, is caused by the Socialist Party and its mafia-like organization. It is the same kind of problems that make many North Italians want to secede from the South. Mafia is another form of terrorism, one that aims to weaken or disable the country's "immune system" so that it can prosper. Once a country, region or municipality has been infected, it will also become less efficient at fighting other forms of organized crimes, including Islamic terrorists. Molenbeek was ruled almost continuously by Socialists from 1939 to 2012, during which time it became infected by corruption, electoral fraud and protection of criminals and extremists in exchange for their community's votes. This article (http://www.sudinfo.be/570465/article/actualite/politique/elections-communales-2012/2012-10-14/fraude-a-molenbeek-des-membres-du-ps-influencaient-les-e) (in French) explains how many votes in Molenbeek had to be cancelled in 2012 (the year the Socialist Party lost its grip on the municipality) when it transpired that Socialist Party officials were accompanying local voters o the box at the polling place while giving them instructions in Arabic to vote for the Socialists. It's just one examples among many of how mafia methods are being used by the Socialists to gain votes.

The Socialists in Brussels also have a uniquely high percentage of members of North African descent. For example, exactly 50% of the 22 Socialist members of the Brussels Parliament have Muslim names. This is all the more surprising knowing that Muslims "only" make 25% of Brussels population and many of them do not have Belgian nationality and therefore cannot vote nor be elected. The Socialist Party rules in 7 of Brussels's 19 municipalities, and would have control over all the poorest, Muslim-dominated municipalities had it not lost Molenbeek because of the electoral fraud of 2012.

As for moving the EU capital to Strasbourg, it is ridiculous considering the huge investments that have been made to build EU institutions in Brussels over the last decades. Strasbourg is somewhat provincial in comparison and does not even have an international airport. The only reason Strasbourg was chosen as one of the EU seats is that both Germany and France wanted a city of their own, and Strasbourg has belonged in turns to both countries. Brussels was chosen because of its strategic geographic location, but also because it Belgium historically belonged to France, Italy (Romans), Germany, Spain, Austria and the Netherlands, and it shares its royal family with the UK. There is simply no other part of Europe with such an international background.

bicicleur
18-11-15, 12:27
Brussels has 19 suburbs each with their own government and own police force
the total of the 19 police forces is 5000 which should be largely sufficient if they would cooperate and be independent of the 19 mayors
Molenbeek is the worst affected, but there are also other suburbs with similar problems
Belgium has become a federal state with a Flemish and a Walloon state
but Brussels in the middle got a seperate statute
it is a very expensive playgarden for local mayors and politicians and there is no political majority in Belgium that is able to dissolve it
it is simply disgusting, it is the result of the 'Belgian political compromises' of which many Belgian politicians are even proud of
then they can explain the press that they have put a very complicated and balanced solution in place, but in reality they haven't solved anything, they have created a sick system

bicicleur
18-11-15, 12:41
You may be right about the situation not being under control in Brussels. The Guardian explained (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/17/terrorists-belgium-paris-attacks) how the Belgian state security only has some 600 employees and its military counterpart has a similar number. This is grossly insufficient for a city that is the seat of the EU and NATo and hosts 2,500 international agencies, 2,000 international companies and 150 international law firms. Why not set up EU-wide secret service and anti-terrorism agencies, each with a main branch in Brussels ? There is already a sort of counter-terrorism coordinator for the EU, but that's an administrative office, AFAIK. What is needed are well-trained troops and spies.

they have no budget for it because they spend all the money for the unefficient gevernments and police forces of Brussels and its suburbs

one more thing, Belgium has one of the least efficient law systems
compared to it's neighbours it has the biggest number of judges and juridical administratives and the largest number of buildings
it has by far the highest number of lawyers per capita
Belgian law is overarduous in preventing innocents to be punished with very complicated procedures and numerous posibilities to go in appeal and to delay the whole process
the result is a mastodont system which all to often fails to condemn and punish the organised criminals
it goes without saying that every atempt to reorganise justice is opposed by both judges and lawyers
and the Belgian politicians who are so proud of their consensus and compromise model are unable to do what has to be done
Belgian politicians don't like solutions, they like complexity

Alan
18-11-15, 13:56
I agree. But I still think this event should lead Germany and other to have stronger borders. Vast majority of refugees are fleeing war but a significant enough minority wants to bring war. A US anti-terrorism official suspects the terrorists were from Syria or Iraq. You living in Germany, are you going to ave second thoughts about going to any big gathering of people?

I am telling you this here and this as a Muslim, the problem are some "preachers" in those European countries. Youth, mostly "native" Muslims , are easy targets for them and being radicalized easily. Just remember like 30% of the whole ISIS members are straight out of Europe.

The governments need to take more care on these preachers. That is the only way to prevent this.

This is also the reason how rather democratic rebellions against dictatorial regimes in the Middle East turned into islamic uprisings. They are strong in equipment and they give the poor youth the "hope" they are searching for.

bicicleur
18-11-15, 15:29
I am telling you this here and this as a Muslim, the problem are some "preachers" in those European countries. Youth, mostly "native" Muslims , are easy targets for them and being radicalized easily. Just remember like 30% of the whole ISIS members are straight out of Europe.

The governments need to take more care on these preachers. That is the only way to prevent this.

This is also the reason how rather democratic rebellions against dictatorial regimes in the Middle East turned into islamic uprisings. They are strong in equipment and they give the poor youth the "hope" they are searching for.

that is a problem and it was funded by Saudi Arabia and it is handled now, but internet is taking over
(and those 'poor' : most of them had opportunities, it is their choice)

but it is not the only thing
ISIS recrutes via many channels and from many different populations,
and besides ISIS , there is Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabaab

Paris is just some small tip of the iceberg
in 2014 over 32000 people were killed in terorrist attacks worldwide
in 2015 there will be many more

Angela
18-11-15, 18:47
I find is sadly ironic that European governments and people excoriated the U.S. for over-reacting after 9/11, yet now that it has hit home in this way, although the dead number 140, not over 3,000, and the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe have not been reduced to rubble, France has suspended civil liberties to this extent.

This state of emergency under which the French are acting, and which Hollande proposes to extend, permits warrant less searches, curfews, etc. That never happened in the U.S. It would also be interesting to know what kind of interrogation techniques are being used. Mind you, I'm not necessarily quarreling with the French decisions.

It's just amazing how looking at the bullet riddled or blown apart bodies of your innocent neighbors, or people who might have been your friends throwing themselves out of skyscrapers to escape a fiery inferno, in our case, can change one's perspective.

One thing that is missing in the conversations in Europe perhaps, but is not missing in conversations in the U.S. , is how did ISIS grow from a few dozen fighters to the numbers we see today, and how did this refugee crisis get so out of hand.

A great part of the responsibility for all of this lies with Barack Obama and his policies, with which Europe was complicit. In fact, Europe was the first to withdraw from the mission. I'm not going to argue that it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Had the intelligence not showed that Iraq had WMD, I'm convinced that Bush would not have gone in. Having gone in you're then committed to the outcome. If you break it, you have a responsibility to not let the situation get worse. Iraq went so badly wrong in the beginning because President Bush, apparently under the advice of Rumsfeld, didn't put in the number of troops the generals requested. After President Bush, contrary to U.S. public opinion and all the Democrats (including Barack Obama) sent in more troops, the so called "surge", things stabilized. Once Obama came into office, it was all about fulfilling his promises to the American left to withdraw.

The U.S. has had tens of thousands of troops in between North Korea and South Korea since 1951. No one has proposed withdrawing them. There have always been thousands in Germany to deter the Russians.There was no reason that ten thousand or more troops couldn't have been kept in Iraq other than his, and the left's in general warped world view that the world's problems are the result of American control. The problems come when America doesn't lead. And I really don't want to hear that the Iraqi leader didn't want us there. When you telegraph to these leaders of unstable governments that you're going to leave them high and dry if not this month then in six months, what do you expect them to do? They're going to make a deal with whatever other strong force is willing to support them in maintaining power.

Had those troops been in place, ISIS could have been destroyed when they were still a rag tag bunch in the dessert. If Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had not totally bungled the Libya situation there would not have been that mass exodus into Europe. Had they had troops on the ground, or at least special forces, their bombing raids might have actually been able to drop bombs on real targets instead of coming back without having dropped a single bomb. I'm no big fan of John McCain for a lot of reasons, but five years ago he said that the U.S. and Nato should have created a no fly zone in the Near East for refugees where they would be safe while ISIS was dealt with. The thought was that it would be similar to the protected Kurdish areas. Had that been done, those hundreds of thousands of refugees wouldn't have headed for Europe. Had the Kurds been armed, some things might have been different. It's not that I don't understand the hesitation given the different Kurdish factions and being unclear about the ultimate motivations of some of them, but sometimes you have to deal with one risk at a time. They've been treading water in Syria for five years, just hoping to get through without an attack on U.S. soil and then dump the problem on the next President.

Now they've reaped the whirlwind, but not one word of apology for misguided decisions, seemingly no sense of guilt for the suffering of all these millions of people in the Near East, not one word about changing the strategy. Instead, we get a statement that the policy is WORKING, and that the Paris attacks are a SETBACK. It's sickening.

That also brings me to the NATO situation. NATO should be taking the lead on this. Why haven't they invoked Article 5? Is it because of Turkey? They should never have been allowed in NATO if that's the case. If you're not committed to the principles of NATO you shouldn't be in NATO. I sincerely hope that it isn't the Obama administration that is preventing this. What a disgrace if that's the case.

Ed. @Bicicleur,
If the mosque problem had been taken care of, then Hollande wouldn't be saying they may have to close some mosques. From what I understand, it's certainly still going on in Britain. Even in the U.S., the NYPD, the best in the world, in my opinion, in these matters, had a program directed at them, until our new idiot Democrat Mayor, DiBlasio, stopped it.

Ed. A word about the acceptance of refugees in the U.S. My heart breaks for these people, but the only ones who can be accepted are the ones for whom we have virtual certainty that they don't have terrorist ties. I'm afraid that means no single men, only family groups, and yes, CHRISTIAN family groups should receive priority. What are people thinking? When records are scant, you do profiling. Profiling works. Ask the Israelis. Christian families coming with their local priest in village groups DON'T FIT THE PROFILE. Have people lost all common sense?

Tchek
18-11-15, 22:29
isn't it about time that the EU capital ( brussels) be moved to their other site in Strasbourg where the area can be monitored more efficiently!

As the Flemish say, the lazy French speaking Walloons don't care anything about Belgium.
What the hell. Stop reading Vlaams Belang bullshit. "Lazy Walloons"... my god...

First, Walloons have nothing to do with Brussels, second the Flemish are far more responsible for giving up Brussels and leaving it on its own; this has been largely explained for years by Charles Picqué the former mayor of the city, who saw Flemish linguistic nationalism around Brussels as a way to create a border around Brussels and force the inner-city to deal on its own with the massive muslim immigration which ended up trapped and piling up disproportionally within a very small area; since immigrants come from former French-speaking colonies.
If you add the massive wealth flight from Brussels to Flanders due to the tax system (taxes are benefitting the zone of residence of the workers, not the zone of the workplace, leaving inner Brussels very empoverished), then if "indifference" exists, it's the Flemish toward Brussels.

LeBrok
18-11-15, 22:52
I am telling you this here and this as a Muslim, the problem are some "preachers" in those European countries. Youth, mostly "native" Muslims , are easy targets for them and being radicalized easily. Just remember like 30% of the whole ISIS members are straight out of Europe.
One of goals of ISIS is to cause a global (biblical-end of the world) war of Christians against Muslims. Recent attacks are meant to anger Christians against Muslims. If Christians (Europeans) respond with vengeance against all Muslims, and more Muslim will be scared of their lives, the more new recruits ISIS will get.
To fight ISIS we have to do the opposite. We need to show that Muslims and Christians can live and work together, especially against all forms of hate and extremism.

In one of Canadian town a Mosque was firebombed by someone, just few days ago. Local United Church offered a space for Muslims to pray till the mosque is fixed. Crowed fundraising already collected all the money to fix it. Now, this is example of multiculturalism at its best, and behavior ISIS hates.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/06/26/mississauga-mosque-helps-vandalized-church-clean-up.html
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/11/16/fundraising-surges-for-torched-peterborough-mosque.html


The governments need to take more care on these preachers. That is the only way to prevent this. How many times it has to be said that we should concentrate on a source of this extremism and radicalism, and the ones who funds these operations.


Mostefai was described as friendly, religious and a talented footballer, but his views became increasingly extreme in 2009. French papers reported he had fallen under the spell of a radical Belgian imam of Morrocan origin at his mosque in the Luce suburb of Chartres. Another French jihadist who was later killed in Syria lived only a few streets from Mostefai, who moved on from Chartres in 2012.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996120/Paris-attack-what-we-know-about-the-suspects.html

Goga
18-11-15, 23:02
One of goals of ISIS is to cause a global (biblical-end of the world) war of Christians against Muslims. Recent attacks are meant to anger Christians against Muslims.
You're overestimating the Sunni Muslim world a lot, lol!!!

The Western Christian world together with Russia can finish off the whole Sunni Muslim world just in few weeks if necessary.

LeBrok
18-11-15, 23:20
You're overestimating the Sunni Muslim world a lot, lol!!!

The Western Christian world together with Russia can finish off the whole Sunni Muslim world just in few weeks if necessary.
So your solution is annihilation of entire religious group. Killing one billion Sunni Muslims is your goal?

Goga
18-11-15, 23:26
So your solution is annihilation of entire religious group. Killing one billion Sunni Muslims is your goal?After the WW2 NAZI-Germany and Japan was NOT annihilated, right? Just stop buying oil from the Arab world. Just 80 years ago Arabs were nobody. They were seen as subhumans. And nobody feared them. The Western World made them somebody. Big mistake!

There's more oil in Venezuela, Iran and Kurdistan.


The Arabs and Turks betrayed the Western world. And they will do it again if they get a chance. Stop invest in them and stop giving them money then everything will be just fine and normal again.

bicicleur
19-11-15, 00:38
What the hell. Stop reading Vlaams Belang bullshit. "Lazy Walloons"... my god...

First, Walloons have nothing to do with Brussels, second the Flemish are far more responsible for giving up Brussels and leaving it on its own; this has been largely explained for years by Charles Picqué the former mayor of the city, who saw Flemish linguistic nationalism around Brussels as a way to create a border around Brussels and force the inner-city to deal on its own with the massive muslim immigration which ended up trapped and piling up disproportionally within a very small area; since immigrants come from former French-speaking colonies.
If you add the massive wealth flight from Brussels to Flanders due to the tax system (taxes are benefitting the zone of residence of the workers, not the zone of the workplace, leaving inner Brussels very empoverished), then if "indifference" exists, it's the Flemish toward Brussels.

don't reply to bullshit with other bullshit

bicicleur
19-11-15, 01:10
If Christians (Europeans) respond with vengeance against all Muslims, and more Muslim will be scared of their lives, the more new recruits ISIS will get.


Many European Muslims went to fight in Syria, but none of them because they were attacked and or threatened by Christians or anybody else.

Of course there should be no vengeance, but we should expect from those Muslims to pay respect to the country that hosted them.

Listen to the words this wise Muslim had to say after the attack on Charlie Hebdo in Paris in january :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77L7WGJY1B0

At least this man acknowledges that these are Muslims, they are convinced by an ideology which gets their inspiration from the Quran, without it ISIS wouldn't be able to attract these people who are prepared to commit suicide to kill others.
Muslims should be aware of that and act against radical views, they should be in the first fighting line against it. But to many of them are convinvced of Muslim supremacy, I'm afraid it there is lack of self-criticism.

After Charlie Hebdo, many Muslims (not a small minority) claimed it was justified to kill the Charlie Hebdo reporters because they had insulted Islam.
Those people don't belong here. That should be made clear. We have been far to tolerant with these people. I am afraid a lot of the harm is done.

Angela
19-11-15, 02:15
You gotta love Jersey. lol

Governor Chris Christie on the President excoriating Republicans for calling for a pause in the acceptance of Syrian refugees (or increased background checks) and doing it while on foreign soil.

"He needs to get some sleep and shut up."

Senator Cruz:

"Why don't you come back and insult me to my face."

Trump:

"He just doesn't get it."

Our clueless Secretary of State just stepped in it too. Attacking Charlie Hebdo had "legitimacy"...uh no, I mean a rationale." Maybe it was legitimate to a lot of Muslims. It's not legitimate and there's no rationale in a secular, open, society that would justify killing people because they insult your religion, and that applies to Christianity as well as Islam.

Just saw a very sobering news item by an American reporter who has been interviewing young men in that Brussels suburb. He said almost without exception they say they don't feel Belgian, they don't feel European, the country has never accepted them or made them feel welcome, and the attacks in Paris were justified. Fans in Turkey booed the Marseillaise.

I don't even know what to say. Forget about trying to assign blame for past policies. What is to be done now?

Tchek
19-11-15, 02:45
don't reply to bullshit with other bullshit

Prove that it's "bullshit"... Prove that Flanders (which yet consider Brussels its capital) doesn't want all the social misery and poverty to be contained within Brussels so it doesn't spread out in Flanders... which is understandable btw, why would it be otherwise?
Every inhabitant of Brussels will tell you about the Flemish apprehension/distrust/defiance toward Brussels. Not that they are wrong to be.

And before being defensive... I'm not attacking Flanders or the Flemish, I'm just sick of hearing the typical scapegoating on Wallonia.

Tchek
19-11-15, 03:28
Just saw a very sobering news item by an American reporter who has been interviewing young men in that Brussels suburb. He said almost without exception they say they don't feel Belgian, they don't feel European, the country has never accepted them or made them feel welcome, and the attacks in Paris were justified. Fans in Turkey booed the Marseillaise.
That's their excuse, the muslim locals of Molenbeek were given a lot of accomodations and welfare by corrupt local PS politicans, far more than they would in other places. They don't feel Belgian because they never wanted to feel Belgian.

Yetos
19-11-15, 07:17
5 terrorist who travel with Greek stolen/fake passports were caught in Hondura,
the Amazing thing,

They travel from Turkey to Greece, back to Turkey, to Brazil, Argentina, San Hose, Costa Rika, Hondura and were caught as try to enter Guatemala,

they travel the world with fake passposrts
until now it is certified if they were true refugges who wanted travel to USA or terrorists

bicicleur
19-11-15, 10:01
Prove that it's "bullshit"... Prove that Flanders (which yet consider Brussels its capital) doesn't want all the social misery and poverty to be contained within Brussels so it doesn't spread out in Flanders... which is understandable btw, why would it be otherwise?
Every inhabitant of Brussels will tell you about the Flemish apprehension/distrust/defiance toward Brussels. Not that they are wrong to be.

And before being defensive... I'm not attacking Flanders or the Flemish, I'm just sick of hearing the typical scapegoating on Wallonia.

I don't scapegoat anyone in Wallonia but I have trouble with people like you.
Any of these people in Brussels can move to Flanders freely.
That proves your whole reasoning is false.
But will it take away your prejudices?

The socalled social misery and poverty is attracted and created by the Brussels politicians themselves who hope these immigrants will make an excellent voting public for them.
There are big financial transfers from the Belgian taxpayers to Brussels.

bicicleur
19-11-15, 10:07
Ed. A word about the acceptance of refugees in the U.S. My heart breaks for these people, but the only ones who can be accepted are the ones for whom we have virtual certainty that they don't have terrorist ties. I'm afraid that means no single men, only family groups, and yes, CHRISTIAN family groups should receive priority. What are people thinking? When records are scant, you do profiling. Profiling works. Ask the Israelis. Christian families coming with their local priest in village groups DON'T FIT THE PROFILE. Have people lost all common sense?

Not that I don't disagree, but in Europe they 'd call you a racist for saying this.
Furthermore this is against the Convention of Geneva, not in its original text, but as it has been amended by UN.
Either amendments have to be changed, which will be impossible because it takes unanimous consent of 150 member states, or the Geneva Convention will be burried and dead. And that will be the fault of the UN.

Maciamo
19-11-15, 12:18
I find is sadly ironic that European governments and people excoriated the U.S. for over-reacting after 9/11, yet now that it has hit home in this way, although the dead number 140, not over 3,000, and the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe have not been reduced to rubble, France has suspended civil liberties to this extent.

This state of emergency under which the French are acting, and which Hollande proposes to extend, permits warrant less searches, curfews, etc. That never happened in the U.S. It would also be interesting to know what kind of interrogation techniques are being used. Mind you, I'm not necessarily quarreling with the French decisions.

It's just amazing how looking at the bullet riddled or blown apart bodies of your innocent neighbors, or people who might have been your friends throwing themselves out of skyscrapers to escape a fiery inferno, in our case, can change one's perspective.

One thing that is missing in the conversations in Europe perhaps, but is not missing in conversations in the U.S. , is how did ISIS grow from a few dozen fighters to the numbers we see today, and how did this refugee crisis get so out of hand.

A great part of the responsibility for all of this lies with Barack Obama and his policies, with which Europe was complicit. In fact, Europe was the first to withdraw from the mission. I'm not going to argue that it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Had the intelligence not showed that Iraq had WMD, I'm convinced that Bush would not have gone in. Having gone in you're then committed to the outcome. If you break it, you have a responsibility to not let the situation get worse. Iraq went so badly wrong in the beginning because President Bush, apparently under the advice of Rumsfeld, didn't put in the number of troops the generals requested. After President Bush, contrary to U.S. public opinion and all the Democrats (including Barack Obama) sent in more troops, the so called "surge", things stabilized. Once Obama came into office, it was all about fulfilling his promises to the American left to withdraw.

The U.S. has had tens of thousands of troops in between North Korea and South Korea since 1951. No one has proposed withdrawing them. There have always been thousands in Germany to deter the Russians.There was no reason that ten thousand or more troops couldn't have been kept in Iraq other than his, and the left's in general warped world view that the world's problems are the result of American control. The problems come when America doesn't lead. And I really don't want to hear that the Iraqi leader didn't want us there. When you telegraph to these leaders of unstable governments that you're going to leave them high and dry if not this month then in six months, what do you expect them to do? They're going to make a deal with whatever other strong force is willing to support them in maintaining power.

Had those troops been in place, ISIS could have been destroyed when they were still a rag tag bunch in the dessert. If Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had not totally bungled the Libya situation there would not have been that mass exodus into Europe. Had they had troops on the ground, or at least special forces, their bombing raids might have actually been able to drop bombs on real targets instead of coming back without having dropped a single bomb. I'm no big fan of John McCain for a lot of reasons, but five years ago he said that the U.S. and Nato should have created a no fly zone in the Near East for refugees where they would be safe while ISIS was dealt with. The thought was that it would be similar to the protected Kurdish areas. Had that been done, those hundreds of thousands of refugees wouldn't have headed for Europe. Had the Kurds been armed, some things might have been different. It's not that I don't understand the hesitation given the different Kurdish factions and being unclear about the ultimate motivations of some of them, but sometimes you have to deal with one risk at a time. They've been treading water in Syria for five years, just hoping to get through without an attack on U.S. soil and then dump the problem on the next President.

Now they've reaped the whirlwind, but not one word of apology for misguided decisions, seemingly no sense of guilt for the suffering of all these millions of people in the Near East, not one word about changing the strategy. Instead, we get a statement that the policy is WORKING, and that the Paris attacks are a SETBACK. It's sickening.

That also brings me to the NATO situation. NATO should be taking the lead on this. Why haven't they invoked Article 5? Is it because of Turkey? They should never have been allowed in NATO if that's the case. If you're not committed to the principles of NATO you shouldn't be in NATO. I sincerely hope that it isn't the Obama administration that is preventing this. What a disgrace if that's the case.

Ed. @Bicicleur,
If the mosque problem had been taken care of, then Hollande wouldn't be saying they may have to close some mosques. From what I understand, it's certainly still going on in Britain. Even in the U.S., the NYPD, the best in the world, in my opinion, in these matters, had a program directed at them, until our new idiot Democrat Mayor, DiBlasio, stopped it.

Ed. A word about the acceptance of refugees in the U.S. My heart breaks for these people, but the only ones who can be accepted are the ones for whom we have virtual certainty that they don't have terrorist ties. I'm afraid that means no single men, only family groups, and yes, CHRISTIAN family groups should receive priority. What are people thinking? When records are scant, you do profiling. Profiling works. Ask the Israelis. Christian families coming with their local priest in village groups DON'T FIT THE PROFILE. Have people lost all common sense?

Thumbs up, Angela. :good_job: Superb post !

Angela
19-11-15, 17:52
Not that I don't disagree, but in Europe they 'd call you a racist for saying this.
Furthermore this is against the Convention of Geneva, not in its original text, but as it has been amended by UN.
Either amendments have to be changed, which will be impossible because it takes unanimous consent of 150 member states, or the Geneva Convention will be burried and dead. And that will be the fault of the UN.

I'm sure. President Obama is calling people who voice that opinion, like Senator Ted Cruz, un-American, which is almost as bad. He can get all fired up against his critics, far more fired up than he gets against ISIS. I'll admit I don't totally understand him.

I have absolutely nothing against Middle Easterners and Muslims. I've argued that we have to be humane and try to help them both in the Middle East and through taking in some refugees. I'm just saying that if you're going to accept refugees they have to be vetted. Even if there's no automatic "Christians In" policy, a proper vetting process would obviously admit more Christians because by definition they're not going to be radical Islamist jihadists. DUH! I don't understand why this isn't obvious.

In terms of vetting the Muslims, it's going to be difficult. How many records can we access in the Near East? I don't know.

When the FBI head, who is part of the administration by the way, but a law enforcement guy first and foremost says that they can't vet them because the data bases don't exist, that gives me pause.

Certainly, what is currently happening in Europe where there is no vetting of any kind going on is madness.

I have no idea if this study is legit, but if it is this is very worrisome.
https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/11/10/survey-13-percent-of-the-syrian-refugees-in-europe-sympathize-with-the-islamic-state/

Sile
19-11-15, 19:52
I don't scapegoat anyone in Wallonia but I have trouble with people like you.
Any of these people in Brussels can move to Flanders freely.
That proves your whole reasoning is false.
But will it take away your prejudices?

The socalled social misery and poverty is attracted and created by the Brussels politicians themselves who hope these immigrants will make an excellent voting public for them.
There are big financial transfers from the Belgian taxpayers to Brussels.

another reason why the EU capital should move to their other popular city of Strasbourg..............

epoch
21-11-15, 12:58
You gotta love Jersey. lol

Governor Chris Christie on the President excoriating Republicans for calling for a pause in the acceptance of Syrian refugees (or increased background checks) and doing it while on foreign soil.

"He needs to get some sleep and shut up."

Senator Cruz:

"Why don't you come back and insult me to my face."

Trump:

"He just doesn't get it."

Our clueless Secretary of State just stepped in it too. Attacking Charlie Hebdo had "legitimacy"...uh no, I mean a rationale." Maybe it was legitimate to a lot of Muslims. It's not legitimate and there's no rationale in a secular, open, society that would justify killing people because they insult your religion, and that applies to Christianity as well as Islam.

Just saw a very sobering news item by an American reporter who has been interviewing young men in that Brussels suburb. He said almost without exception they say they don't feel Belgian, they don't feel European, the country has never accepted them or made them feel welcome, and the attacks in Paris were justified. Fans in Turkey booed the Marseillaise.

I don't even know what to say. Forget about trying to assign blame for past policies. What is to be done now?

I just read what Kerry said. Holy f***.

Tomenable
21-11-15, 13:36
I have no idea if this study is legit, but if it is this is very worrisome.
https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/11/10/survey-13-percent-of-the-syrian-refugees-in-europe-sympathize-with-the-islamic-state/

Contrary to what politically correct media are telling us, NOT ALL Syrian refugees are escaping because of ISIS. The Syrian Civil War is a real mess - there are at least 4 factions there - the Syrian regime, SRCC, ISIS and Kurds - and each of them fights against everyone else. So sympathies and support among the population are also divided into 4 parts. This corresponds well with the figure of 1/4 of Syrian refugees who either openly support or don't have anything negative to say about ISIS. They did not flee from Syria to escape ISIS, but to escape the Syrian government, SRCC forces, or Kurds. SRCC stands for Syrian Revolutionary Command Council.

Imagine it is 1945, and we have crowds of German & other Axis refugees, 23% of whom are Nazi or Pro-Nazi and want to escape from the Reich before it collapses. This is exactly what is hapenning now, except we are facing another kind of extremists.

Tomenable
21-11-15, 13:53
Eleven fragments of Sunnah which allow and encourage Muslims to rape and to own slaves:

(1) http://sunnah.com/abudawud/15
(2) http://sunnah.com/muslim/1
(3) http://sunnah.com/bukhari/58/3
(4) http://sunnah.com/muslim/45/130
(5) http://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/221
(6) http://sunnah.com/muslim/32
(7) http://sunnah.com/muslim/32/167
(8) http://sunnah.com/muslim/54/105
(9) http://sunnah.com/abudawud/40/54
(10) http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/110
(11) http://sunnah.com/muslim/16/147

Simply "the Religion of Piss"...

Here some good historical reading - "The Islamic Expansion and Decline", two parts:

http://www.speedyshare.com/nccwy/Islamic-Expansion-and-Decline-I.pdf

http://www.speedyshare.com/tFFA3/Islamic-Expansion-and-Decline-II.pdf

Table of contents:

Preface
Chapter 1: A Powerful and Dangerous Meme
Chapter 2: The Flawed Prophet
Chapter 3: Shadow of the Sword: Patterns of Islamic Conquest
Chapter 4: Limits of Empire: Islam Contained
Chapter 5: Patterns of Treason
Chapter 6: Triumph of the Faith: Conversion of the Vanquished
Chapter 7: Culture of the Harem: Polygamy, Concubinage and the Spread of Islam
Chapter 8: The Slave Society
Chapter 9: Strategies of Cultural Survival
Chapter 10: Phases of Islamic Political Development
Chapter 11: The Parasitic Civilization
Chapter 12: The Islamic Reformation
Chapter 13: Myth and Reality
Chapter 14: The Fire This Time
Chapter 15: Conclusion

"The Curve of Conversion" - how the Middle East and North Africa became Muslim:

http://www.speedyshare.com/m55dn/The-Curve-of-Conversion.pdf

Angela
21-11-15, 15:48
I just read what Kerry said. Holy f***.

In my opinion he revealed, in an unguarded moment, his actual mindset and that of the President and a certain section of the west, to wit, that it's somehow the west's fault that we are being attacked in this way: if we would just stay out of the Middle East, stop supporting Israel and let the Jews be exterminated, and never criticize their religion, this would all stop.

I don't understand it. It's not a logical or rational point of view. When a group tells you that their goal is to set up a world wide caliphate in which people will be forced to either convert or die, and Sharia law will be imposed, why precisely wouldn't you take them at their word?

Why would you refuse to say that it is radical Islam, with roots in Wahabism, which is providing the religious rationale? They're not mad Buddhists! I don't think most westerners are so stupid or racist as to think that all Muslims subscribe to these beliefs.

I can and do deeply deplore Torquemada and all his ilk, and the doings of the Spanish Inquisition, but I don't deny that they were Christians.

@Tomenable,

I don't see the point of listing all the objectionable passages in the Koran. I could quote you chapter and verse equally horrific things from the Old Testament, which I would remind you is, according to Christian belief, as much the inspired word of God as the New Testament. It's just that the theology of Christianity, and Judaism for that matter, has evolved over time, and thus so has the interpretation of those scriptures. The attitudes and behaviors of some tribe from the first millennium BC are not held up as some sort of modern standard.

Islam has not yet gone through the same process to the same extent, although it would be a disservice to Islam to claim that all interpretations of it are like Wahabism. Sufi Islam is very different.

Ed. As to Putin's role in all of this, it is ambiguous to say the least. This massive outpouring of refugees to Europe started because Assad was bombing and gassing his own people. Putin's main goal is supporting Assad. In fact, in the beginning he was bombing Assad's opponents, not ISIS. I think people need to take a clear headed view of his participation in all of this.

bicicleur
21-11-15, 16:34
@Tomenable,

I don't see the point of listing all the objectionable passages in the Koran. I could quote you chapter and verse equally horrific things from the Old Testament, which I would remind you is, according to Christian belief, as much the inspired word of God as the New Testament. It's just that the theology of Christianity, and Judaism for that matter, has evolved over time, and thus so has the interpretation of those scriptures. The attitudes and behaviors of some tribe from the first millennium BC are not held up as some sort of modern standard.

Islam has not yet gone through the same process to the same extent, although it would be a disservice to Islam to claim that all interpretations of it are like Wahabism. Sufi Islam is very different.



it is not because you find the same things in the Old Testament that the Quran is excused

the Old Testament was written by writers commissioned by some Jewish king in the 8th century BC who was at war with the Filistines and some rival Jewish kings
this king justified his actions and his wars because he was leading the chosen people and the Filistines happened to be trespassing the promised land
when you see how Jewish colonists took the lands of the Palestine farmers, it sounds familiar

do you think ISIS would be able to convince his warriors to commit suicide in order to kill innocent people without quoting the Quran?

don't think the wholy books are innocent
it is so easy to abuse them, because they were originaly written for that purpose

Dimitri Verhulst has 'rewritten the Bible'.
In order to make publicity and present his new book he has been asking why 'Mein Kampf' is forbidden and not the Bible because the bible uses the same 'language of genocide'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitri_Verhulst

the publicity for his book worked, he got the attention, but what he said was not contradicted

Angela
21-11-15, 17:25
Bicicleur, I was force fed Biblical analysis, including textual analysis, Biblical archaeology, the history of the periods involved, and even some elementary linguistic analysis for 45 minutes a day for the entire four years of my theology classes in high school, and then again in college courses. You don't need to convince me that there are such passages in the Old Testament, nor that they reflect the history and mores of that particular time, place and people.

Nor do you need to convince me that similar kinds of passages in the Koran are being used to justify this psychopathic behavior.

As I said, the theology of Christianity and Islam has evolved, there are strains of Islam which have not.

bicicleur
21-11-15, 17:42
Bicicleur, I was force fed Biblical analysis, including textual analysis, Biblical archaeology, the history of the periods involved, and even some elementary linguistic analysis for 45 minutes a day for the entire four years of my theology classes in high school, and then again in college courses. You don't need to convince me that there are such passages in the Old Testament, nor that they reflect the history and mores of that particular time, place and people.

Nor do you need to convince me that similar kinds of passages in the Koran are being used to justify this psychopathic behavior.

As I said, the theology of Christianity and Islam has evolved, there are strains of Islam which have not.

it's not just a few strains
there are whole countries or areas in the world where the majority is susceptible for this rhetoric
Europe imported some of them over the last few decades

Angela
23-11-15, 19:12
A thoughtful piece by a Muslim, " Does Isis really have nothing to do with Islam"?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/11/18/does-isis-really-have-nothing-to-do-with-islam-islamic-apologetics-carry-serious-risks/?postshare=5991447954776444&tid=ss_tw

Angela
23-11-15, 19:48
Life in Raqqa: the epicenter of Hell

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/telling-the-truth-about-isis-and-raqqa

bicicleur
23-11-15, 20:27
Life in Raqqa: the epicenter of Hell

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/telling-the-truth-about-isis-and-raqqa

I hope they start acting.
I read today, don't know if it is correct, but the number of NATO raids in the Bosnian war was 20 times higher than the raids today against ISIS.

bicicleur
23-11-15, 20:43
this is the man that didn't blow himself up in Paris and came back to hide in Brussels :

https://tribwxin.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/police-nationale-has-just-issued-this-arrest-warrant-for-abdeslam-salah-suspected-of-being-involved-in-the-paris-attacks.jpg?w=770

Belgian police is looking for them
but also ISIS is
if he doesn't blow himself up soon in a place with many people around, his family won't be safe for ISIS

and this is what Brussels looks like today :

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12295394_10206601118120196_7573921459023488147_n.j pg?oh=f8610ee239b8abdc86b2e0e85300eb0d&oe=56DE3AD7

Angela
23-11-15, 23:15
QUOTE=bicicleur;471263]this is the man that didn't blow himself up in Paris and came back to hide in Brussels :

https://tribwxin.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/police-nationale-has-just-issued-this-arrest-warrant-for-abdeslam-salah-suspected-of-being-involved-in-the-paris-attacks.jpg?w=770

Belgian police is looking for them
but also ISIS is
if he doesn't blow himself up soon in a place with many people around, his family won't be safe for ISIS

and this is what Brussels looks like today :

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12295394_10206601118120196_7573921459023488147_n.j pg?oh=f8610ee239b8abdc86b2e0e85300eb0d&oe=56DE3AD7[/QUOT

We've had non stop tv coverage of it, and even that is depressing. Living with it must be absolutely terrible. I'm sure they are desperate to catch Abdeslam and whoever is helping him before too much more time passes because how long can you keep a city shut down like this?

Amazing, isn't it, that for months all we had were a few half-hearted raids, and now all of a sudden we miraculously have all of these "targets" such as training camps, fuel transport, and on and on.

Meanwhile, some intelligence analysts here complained to their Inspector General that their assessments were being altered by Defense Department commanders to present a "rosier" picture of the situation vis a vis ISIS. Another scandal, just what we needed. The Democrats will, I'm sure, try to argue that the administration was misled by dastardly military types. Now we'll see if the Commanders will fall on their swords or whether they'll claim that White House operatives told them to do it. I've yet to figure out how the administration's supporters think they can blame the Defense Department when the two prior Secretaries of Defense in this administration, most recently Leon Panetta, have gone public in recent weeks and months that the President in effect didn't want to see the situation realistically.

Leon Panetta on what needs to be done:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/former-defense-secretary-leon-panetta-isis-fight-u-s-has-n467801

This from a man who was born a dedicated Democrat. He's being a little coy there. Article 5 isn't being invoked because the administration doesn't want it to be invoked. Hollande will get no joy from his visit here.

Tomenable
24-11-15, 19:21
Amazing, isn't it, that for months all we had were a few half-hearted raids, and now all of a sudden we miraculously have all of these "targets" such as training camps, fuel transport, and on and on.

AFAIK, already months ago ISIS publicly informed Europeans, that they were going to smuggle ISIS terrorists disguised as refugees into Europe, and also to recruit local Muslims as suicide fighters. So it is not so amazing. More amazing is why the EU was cheerfully embracing the process of cultural enrichment without seriously treating those warnings, or even just paying attention to them.

Maybe they thought, that ISIS guys were just bluffing. Well, they were not.

LABERIA
24-11-15, 21:12
Sorry. Wrong thread.

Angela
27-11-15, 17:48
This blogger has done a map of the percentage of Muslims by country who believe in the death penalty for apostasy.

I don't agree with everything he says, and most certainly not the tying of support for radical Islam with lowered IQ because of extensive cousin marriage. That sounds like outright racism to me. There was a lot of cousin marriage in Europe too up until the 20th century.

Still, it's sobering.

Tunisia is indeed one of the few bright spots. The figures for Turkey, after decades of secularization, are particularly worrying.

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/map-death-for-apostasy/

Rethel
27-11-15, 18:04
This blogger has done a map of the percentage of Muslims by country who believe in the death penalty for apostasy.

It is not matter of personal belive.
If you are a muslim, you must belive in what Islam teaches.
Otherwise, you are an apostate.




That sounds like outright racism to me.

And what is racism in that?
That author do not like muslims (who are not a race) or that muslims are trying
to make some race (like Darwin and his followers) by marrying own cousins?


There was a lot of cousin marriage in Europe too up until the 20th century.

1. It was not between 3 and 4 degree (at least very very rare).
2. It wasnt a religious rule, becasue religion banned every marriage until 8 degree
3. more over, it was a need of suspence of bishop or pope to make such legal marriage until 8 relation degree.
4. Mohammedians are marring cousins, not becasue they want to, but because Mohammed did. And this is the reason.

LeBrok
27-11-15, 18:28
Another contradiction by Rethel's "logic":


]It is not [/B]matter of personal belive.

If you are a muslim, you must belive in what Islam teaches.
Otherwise, you are an apostate.
Either it is a belief or it is not. It can't be both.
Unless you meant "belief" as personal judgment, personal choice, but confused it with word "belief"?

Rethel
27-11-15, 19:15
Quote was: Muslims by country who believe in the death penalty for apostasy.

I meant, that if you are a muslim, you cannot decide about this matter on your own.
You cannot say: I am a faithfull muslim, but I do not belive in death penalty for apostates.
If you say so, you are an unbeliver - maybe not so huge degree but still... you must obey
and imitate Muhammed. And he certainly belived in death penalty for apostasy, and even
was executing this belive - whatever your definition of this word is. Islam is a package so
you are taking all, or nothing.

Personal belive - what I think, like or want about something.
Muslim belive - what muslims should belive as Islam teaches.

Did you now uderstand what I meant?

Angela
27-11-15, 19:57
It is not matter of personal belive.
If you are a muslim, you must belive in what Islam teaches.
Otherwise, you are an apostate.





And what is racism in that?
That author do not like muslims (who are not a race) or that muslims are trying
to make some race (like Darwin and his followers) by marrying own cousins?



1. It was not between 3 and 4 degree (at least very very rare).
2. It wasnt a religious rule, becasue religion banned every marriage until 8 degree
3. more over, it was a need of suspence of bishop or pope to make such legal marriage until 8 relation degree.
4. Mohammedians are marring cousins, not becasue they want to, but because Mohammed did. And this is the reason.

You are misinformed again.

First cousin marriages in Europe:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/02/people-stop-thinking-appropriate-cousins-marry/

The best analysis of consanguineous marriages in Europe that I've ever seen was the one done by Cavalli-Sforza, which focused on Italy but also discussed the phenomenon in broader pan European terms.

See:
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v96/n4/full/6800801a.html

As to the role of Christian doctrine, the following summarizes the rules of the Catholic Church:
"Lateran Council in 1215 with the decision that the restrictions on consanguineous marriage applied to third-cousin relationships or closer (F ≥ 0.0039).7 (http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/6/1453.full#ref-7) This level of regulation was confirmed by the post-Reformation Council of Trent (1545–63) and remained in force until 1917 when the requirement for consanguinity dispensation was reduced to couples related as second cousins or closer (F ≥ 0.0156) and in 1983 to first cousins or closer."

These marriages could not be performed by the church unless the couple applied for and received a dispensation. However, records show that requests were often made and almost always granted. Royalty even received dispensations for uncle/niece marriages. Keeping the money and power intact was a powerful inducement for the upper and middle classes. In rural villages, particularly when serfdom was still in force, there was no choice.

These kinds of rules did not apply in Protestant Europe after the Reformation:

"As part of his criticism on the practices of the Roman Catholic Church, Martin Luther had condemned the requirement for consanguinity dispensation payments, since according to Divine Rule as revealed in Leviticus 18:7–18, there should be no impediment to marriage between first cousins. Accordingly, first-cousin marriages were accepted by the various Protestant denominations founded in much of northern Europe. "

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/6/1453.full

Cousin marriages began to be disfavored in Europe only in the mid-to-late 19th century. Mr. Natural Selection himself, Charles Darwin, was married to this first cousin.

As to the first part of your comment, there is no major religion which has only one branch. Catholics don't believe the same things as Protestants, even, as can be seen, with regard to consanguineous marriages. Mainline Presbyterians and Episcopalians have different tenets with regard to matters both theological and verging on the social, such as doctrine regarding homosexuality than do evangelical denominations such as the Baptists, much less groups like Church of the Nazarene and the Church of Christ.

You may not be aware of it, but there are reform movements within Islam, just as a Reform Judaism developed, and before that the Conservative Movement in Judaism, both of which are different from Orthodox Judaism. The problem is that Wahabism seems to be gaining ground.

Ed. I am not a world authority on Islam, but you know absolutely nothing about it. The Old Testament says that women taken in adultery should be stoned to death. Even the most ultra-Orthodox Jews don't do or advocate that. Religions. evolve and so therefore do interpretations of scripture. There are indeed Muslim Imans who preach that this particular stricture should not be interpreted literally. It's just that they seem to be losing ground. I would suggest you do some reading.

Rethel
28-11-15, 03:37
You are misinformed again.

With what?
Read again please, and show me.


As to the first part of your comment, there is no major religion which has only one branch.

It doesn't matter. I was not talking abut sects, but about Islam. Islam = Mohammed.


Catholics don't believe the same things as Protestants, even, as can be seen, with regard to consanguineous marriages. Mainline Presbyterians and Episcopalians have different tenets with regard to matters both theological and verging on the social, such as doctrine regarding homosexuality than do evangelical denominations such as the Baptists, much less groups like Church of the Nazarene and the Church of Christ.

That only means, that some of them, or maybe all, are wrong.
One is certain - they all cannot be right simultaniosly. If some
church is teaching that homosexuality is ok, it is not christian
church who is teaching according to the scripture. He could
be call nominally "christian", but if you look into scriptures,
you'll see what is the right doctrine.


You may not be aware of it, but there are reform movements within Islam, just as a Reform Judaism developed, and before that the Conservative Movement in Judaism, both of which are different from Orthodox Judaism.

And what that means? That they changing Islam? No.
They are creating some silly imitation of this religion,
which became a new schisma or sect - uncoranic.

If you have a dollar, and you will try to change him,
becasue maybe you do not like Washington in front
on the blanquet, and you print dollar whith Mahatma
Gandhi - it will be still dollar, but not the original one.
This is a difference between sect and original religion.


The problem is that Wahabism seems to be gaining ground.

And salafism. Most of muslims are agree with that kind of "interpretation" - if you like this word.
And they will grow, becasue they are close to true Islam. Reform moovments will be destroyed
as an apostates, becasue you can't reform something what is perfect, eternal and godly. How
can you reform something like that? HOW? Yu must be someone who is more powerfull than
Ałłah, or someone who knows better than Mohammed. Are you?


Ed. I am not a world authority on Islam, but you know absolutely nothing about it.

Nothing at all. But it is normall, that atheists know evrything better. But after that, they are shocked...


The Old Testament says that women taken in adultery should be stoned to death.

Yes. It said this. You can obey or not. If you are not obeying,
then - according to that source, not me - you are an apostate.


Even the most ultra-Orthodox Jews don't do or advocate that.

I doubt such boldly conclusion.
But they never ever say, that this is wrong.
Their ancestors were stoning according to that verses.


Religions. evolve and so therefore do interpretations of scripture. There are indeed Muslim Imans who preach that this particular stricture should not be interpreted literally. It's just that they seem to be losing ground.

Did I say, that such imams do not exist?


I would suggest you do some reading.

Everything can be reading as a alegory and at the end, the book
become worthless, becasue everyone will read what he like to. :)

Do you read in such manner books, acts, or penalty codex?:laughing:

When you break the law, and judge will jugde you, then say to
him, that you was reading in evolving interpretation and you was
not interpreted this stuff literally.. It will be certainly seem, that
judge will be loosing his ground... or you? :laughing:

Angela
28-11-15, 15:57
Rethel;471709]With what?
Read again please, and show me.

I'm afraid it is you who must read again. Go back to my post and read the documentation which proves that you were totally incorrect about the history of cousin marriage, even first cousin marriage, in Europe. Did you somehow miss it, or you preferred to ignore it? I've personally always found that you garner more respect when you admit you've been wrong about something, but hey, do what you want.


It doesn't matter. I was not talking abut sects, but about Islam. Islam = Mohammed.

That only means, that some of them, or maybe all, are wrong.
One is certain - they all cannot be right simultaniosly. If some
church is teaching that homosexuality is ok, it is not christian
church who is teaching according to the scripture. He could
be call nominally "christian", but if you look into scriptures,
you'll see what is the right doctrine.


You don't get to decide what the one true version of Islam is, or Judaism, or Christianity, for that matter. That is something for the practitioners of those religions to decide, usually through their Synods or Convocations or with their Imans.

The entire tenor of many of your posts is that ALL Muslims are dangerous, and you attempt to prove that by quoting from their scripture. What is clear is that not ALL Muslims interpret the Koran literally, just like most Christians don't interpret the Old Testament literally. So, your argument logically fails.




And salafism. Most of muslims are agree with that kind of "interpretation" - if you like this word.
And they will grow, becasue they are close to true Islam. Reform moovments will be destroyed
as an apostates, becasue you can't reform something what is perfect, eternal and godly. How
can you reform something like that? HOW? Yu must be someone who is more powerfull than
Ałłah, or someone who knows better than Mohammed. Are you?

Now, in addition to being a theological authority, you have a crystal ball? Let's just hope it's cracked, which would be apt. :)


Nothing at all. But it is normall, that atheists know evrything better. But after that, they are shocked...



Who says I'm an atheist? Do you know what they say about people who assume things not in evidence?


Did I say, that such imams do not exist?

Then we're in agreement, which means that indeed all Muslims don't believe that apostates should be killed.


Everything can be reading as a alegory and at the end, the book
become worthless, becasue everyone will read what he like to. :)

That is indeed an argument that is made by fundamentalists. However, it's irrelevant to the point that there are millions of people following a variety of religions, including Muslims, who interpret certain parts of their scriptures as allegory. I assure you, for example, that the Catholic Church does not teach that the Creation Stories in the Bible should be read literally.

Let's try to keep the arguments within the realm of logic and not prejudice, shall we?

Rethel
28-11-15, 16:43
.I'm afraid it is you who must read again. Go back to my post and read the documentation which proves that you were totally incorrect about the history of cousin marriage, even first cousin marriage, in Europe. Did you somehow miss it, or you preferred to ignore it? I've personally always found that you garner more respect when you admit you've been wrong about something, but hey, do what you want.

So, you do not even know what you were talking
about, if you do not know, what I said wrong :)

You see - you do not listen, what someone says,
but you based on your imagination what someone
should say according to you, becasue you know
better what someone is thinking.

You even didn't read enaough to mention, that I
was mention about Darwin, becasue you do not
must read what someone else write, becasue you
know before that, what someone was writing - so
you make an argument against me from the thing
which I admitted in my previous statement.

So, as alwawy it is poitless to talk with you.
I leave you with your imaginary world alone. :)

If you figurate out about what I was talking
about, and you come on earth again, than I
will return to this discussion. I really do not
have time ten times to explain what I wrote
expecially, if some one do not want listen.

Brave New World is wonderfull, but
the landing is very real and is hard :laughing:

Angela
28-11-15, 17:05
So, you do not even know what you were talking
about, if you do not know, what I said wrong :)

You see - you do not listen, what someone says,
but you based on your imagination what someone
should say according to you, becasue you know
better what someone is thinking.

You even didn't read enaough to mention, that I
was mention about Darwin, becasue you do not
must read what someone else write, becasue you
know before that, what someone was writing - so
you make an argument against me from the thing
which I admitted in my previous statement.

So, as alwawy it is poitless to talk with you.
I leave you with your imaginary world alone. :)

If you figurate out about what I was talking
about, and you come on earth again, than I
will return to this discussion. I really do not
have time ten times to explain what I wrote
expecially, if some one do not want listen.

Brave New World is wonderfull, but
the landing is very real and is hard :laughing:

When you're already in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

Rethel
28-11-15, 17:08
When you're already in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

As you like to think so, rather reflect - be my guest.

Tomenable
28-11-15, 23:03
I understand their frustration: :laughing:

http://i.imgur.com/4zBTZ4i.png

Angela
28-11-15, 23:58
I understand their frustration: :laughing:

http://i.imgur.com/4zBTZ4i.png

Of course it's a Muslim thing, in so far as ISIS followers, as part of their process of radicalization, have accepted a Wahabist version of Islam, although they, under the direction of their Imans, have their own "spin" on the Koran even in addition to that. I fail to see how anything I've posted contradicts that fact.

What frustrates me is the lack of rationality that surrounds this subject. None of the above means that ALL Muslims hold these beliefs. We know, for example, that not ALL Muslims are Wahabists, much less followers of ISIS.

There are bizarre Christian sects as well, and always have been. In the first centuries after the death of Christ there were Christian sects which promoted both male/female promiscuity and homosexuality, and which preached that union with the Godhead could be achieved through orgasm. At the other extreme, the Shakers, an American sect, didn't believe in sexual congress between man and woman, like the Cathars of the Middle Ages. Unsurprisingly, they're not around any more. :) The Shakers were few in number, but there were lots and lots of Cathars. It took a Crusade to burn them out. In the American heartland we periodically get weird Christian churches that highlight "snake handling" as well as speaking in tongues. Excommunicated offshoots of the Mormons still practice polygamy, and have been accused of sexual rape and abuse of underage girls.

No one says that all Christians believe this. Well, all Muslims aren't Wahabists either. The problem is that Wahabism is taught in a lot of Muslim schools because of Saudi money, and more and more young people are "converting".

Boreas
29-11-15, 01:47
Quote was: Muslims by country who believe in the death penalty for apostasy.

I meant, that if you are a muslim, you cannot decide about this matter on your own.
You cannot say: I am a faithfull muslim, but I do not belive in death penalty for apostates.
If you say so, you are an unbeliver - maybe not so huge degree but still... you must obey
and imitate Muhammed. And he certainly belived in death penalty for apostasy, and even
was executing this belive - whatever your definition of this word is. Islam is a package so
you are taking all, or nothing.

Personal belive - what I think, like or want about something.
Muslim belive - what muslims should belive as Islam teaches.

Did you now uderstand what I meant?

How do you explain, countries whose population mostly Muslim but there is no death penalty in their law system?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Capital_punishment.PNG

Angela
29-11-15, 02:05
Challenge to Islam From World's Largest Muslim State:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/27/world/asia/indonesia-islam-nahdlatul-ulama.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


@Boreas, You're not going to get logic from certain people. It's useless to expect it.

Rethel
29-11-15, 02:18
How do you explain, countries whose population mostly Muslim but there is no death penalty in their law system?


1. Most muslim states have death penalty.
2. This couple which do not have this kind of penalty, are not governing by islamic law or are under some kind of secular influace.
3. Government of state of some forbidden country doesn't change the teachings of Mohammed.


@Boreas, You're not going to get logic from certain people. It's useless to expect it.

It is really hard to understand someone, if you do not read what someone writes, but you
over and over again imputing everyone, not only me, somthing what you want me to say.
If you are talkin about something else than your intelocutor, then you have problems with
understanding logic - but probably not mine, but your own.

Boreas
29-11-15, 03:41
@Boreas, You're not going to get logic from certain people. It's useless to expect it.

Yeap, maybe that's why I feel like talking with a wall when I try to make conversation with him :grin:



1. Most muslim states have death penalty.
2. This couple which do not have this kind of penalty, are not governing by islamic law or are under some kind of secular influace.
3. Government of state of some forbidden country doesn't change the teachings of Mohammed.


It is really easy to forget your previous post. :laughing:

You said this



I meant, that if you are a muslim, you cannot decide about this matter on your own.
You cannot say: I am a faithfull muslim, but I do not belive in death penalty for apostates.


According to your logic, if you change the rules, you can't be Muslim, so you can't say most Muslim, all or not. This is your logic.

Do you think we are stupid and won't see the inconsistency in your words?

Sorry Mate. :innocent:

Sile
29-11-15, 04:54
How do you explain, countries whose population mostly Muslim but there is no death penalty in their law system?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Capital_punishment.PNG

What are you talking about ...The muslim women due to the fact they are second or third class citizens in the society are already walking around as if they are on death row

Rethel
29-11-15, 06:51
Yeap, maybe that's why I feel like talking with a wall when I try to make conversation with him

Or maybe becasue you want proof, that you know better that Mohammed, what Islam is about?


According to your logic, if you change the rules, you can't be Muslim, so you can't say most Muslim, all or not. This is your logic.

Not mine, but islamic. This is a logic of Mohammed.
I never deny, that exists muslims like you, who want do what they want,
against teachings of Mohammed and still call themaselves muslims.
But according to standarts of Mohammed you are an apostate.


Do you think we are stupid and won't see the inconsistency in your words?

I use only language of your religion.

Btw - you cannot disscuse with Mohammed.
Either you do what he tells or not.
There is no third option if you want be a true muslim.

You cannot choose what you want - and be faithfull.

And you perfectly understand this, and this
is a reason why you telling that nonsense.

kyrani99
29-11-15, 12:39
Or maybe becasue you want proof, that you know better that Mohammed, what Islam is about?

Not mine, but islamic. This is a logic of Mohammed.
I never deny, that exists muslims like you, who want do what they want,
against teachings of Mohammed and still call themaselves muslims.
But according to standarts of Mohammed you are an apostate.


If, as a Christian you are stilling on the high ground of morality maybe you'd have something to say but you seem to have forgotten the huge atrocities that the Christians have done, not even for apostasy but for refusing to become a Christian. Hundreds of thousands were burnt alive at the stake all across Western Europe and thousands more in distant lands were killed by the missionaries.

Oh that was in the past you say, just consider though the Muslims have a long, long way to go to catch up in the numbers killed by Christians. Every religion is evolving and every peoples are changing. To be clear sighted better to give support to those that lead the way to change than condemn them because you see fit to condemn.

Boreas
29-11-15, 13:16
What are you talking about ...The muslim women due to the fact they are second or third class citizens in the society are already walking around as if they are on death row


You are incredle.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/07/FT_15.07.24_womenLeadersMap.png

So Modern Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia have been ruled by womens which makes nearly 37% of all Muslims (according to current populations)

How do you explain it? Do 37% of Muslim some kind of masochist so they were ruled by women (who were second class citizen) ?



Not mine, but islamic. This is a logic of Mohammed.
I never deny, that exists muslims like you, who want do what they want,
against teachings of Mohammed and still call themaselves muslims.
But according to standarts of Mohammed you are an apostate.


How do you know mohammed's idea what much certainly, are you talking with him in your dream? :grin:




Btw - you cannot disscuse with Mohammed.


Yes, I can.

Let me help you to understand, Quran was written after the Muhammed, so I can totally say that Muhammed didn't see this Quran and didn't give his approval.

Even Satan has been tried to get in Quran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

Or there is also goat issue. A goat ate some parts (which is about stoning) of Quran(before collecting and making a book) etc...

Tomenable
29-11-15, 13:34
and thousands more in distant lands were killed by the missionaries.

^ I think you are confusing missionaries with conquistadores. :laughing:

A "subtle" difference. Like between U.S. Marines and U.S. pastors... :laughing:


the Muslims have a long, long way to go to catch up in the numbers killed by Christians.Muslims have already killed much more in the name of Muhammad, than Christians have ever killed for Christ.


Every religion is evolving and every peoples are changing.

Some are doing this way too slowly, and some in the wrong direction (e.g. Islam seems to be becoming more violent).

BTW - there were studies which measured how level of religious devotedness correlates with violence. And guess what, Devoted Jews and Devoted Christians were not more violent than those without strong faith, while in case of Muslims there was a positive correlation - the more Devoted a Muslim is, the more violent he/she is. Maybe because Jesus was a socialist-pacifist hippie, who never harmed a fly and let himself get crucified, while Muhammad was a ruthless conqueror! Islam is not a religion of peace.

The essential difference between Christianity and Islam is in the very core roots of these religions.

Take a look at the biography of Jesus, then take a look at the biography of Muhammad...

For instance - Jesus preached pacifism, Muhammad preached (and practiced!) war.

Rethel
29-11-15, 17:44
How do you know mohammed's idea what much certainly, are you talking with him in your dream? :grin:

Mohammeds idea it is this, what we have anout this: Koran and Sunna.


Yes, I can.

You can everything. You can even not beliving in Allah and Mohammed and call yourself muslim. You can everything. But this what you wish to do dosnt mean that this is islamic teaching. If you are trying say, that in Islam are no standards at all - if so it is indeed, go and preach this Idea in your neighbour mosque and in Mekka. If you do this, and you still will be alive, than I admitt my mistake. Until this better say nothing more, becasue you are talking nonsense.


Let me help you to understand, Quran was written after the Muhammed, so I can totally say that Muhammed didn't see this Quran and didn't give his approval.

As I said above, you can claim what you wish, but it not necessary means that this is islamic.
Islam means, that you belive in Koran and Sunna as trustworthy sources of faith. It does not
matter even what is the truth, because, Islam don't care about truth - muslim must belive like
that becasue this is sense of any faith - to belive. If you want be like stupid and hypocythe
christians, who don;t belive in Bible - you can be, but do not tall me, that this is Islam, and if
it is Islam indeed - go to Mekka and loudly preach this, and will see, how long will you preaching
this your real Islam...


Even Satan has been tried to get in Quran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

He not only try to get to Koran, but he is probably the author of most part of this book if not all.
But I think, that Satan is not so stupid, to make such idiotic mistakes, as authors of Koran did, so
he is probably an inspirator, and author on most part, but this also gives him credit as author of all.


Or there is also goat issue. A goat ate some parts (which is about stoning) of Quran(before collecting and making a book) etc...

And you still belive in such goat-faith, or you are only pretending?

Rethel
29-11-15, 17:53
For instance - Jesus preached pacifism, Muhammad preached (and practiced!) war.

Jesus preached peacefully, and Mohammed preached violently.

Jesus neither preached pacifism neither was a pacifist.

But the fruit of Jesus's teachings is peace, and fruit of Mohammed teachings is non ending violance.

This is the difference.

Angela
29-11-15, 18:05
There is no place here for comments to the effect that Satan wrote the Holy Book of another religion.

Perhaps members should be reminded that if you accumulate enough infractions it results in an automatic ban.

kyrani99
29-11-15, 18:26
^ I think you are confusing missionaries with conquistadores. :laughing:

A "subtle" difference. Like between U.S. Marines and U.S. pastors... :laughing:

Muslims have already killed much more in the name of Muhammad, than Christians have ever killed for Christ.

Columbus was a slave trader and Holy Crusader. The conquest of the "New World" was understood as a way of propagate Christianity, to teach the gospel to the ends of the earth. And there is evidence in that Columbus described the native Indians as "idolators" and "slaves.

By the end of the 16th century 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas and just prior to and including that time more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
An estimated total of around 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, some by direct violence (50 million) but most because they were forced to live under intolerable fear for extended periods of time.....by Christians!

The argument that 2/3rds died because of the colonists brought smallpox from Europe and they had no immunity to this. Hogwash!

Scientific evidence.
1. no one is infectious of any microorganism EXCEPT during the time of infection and illness. The Spaniards were not sick. They were healthy otherwise they would not have even crossed the ocean. This is evidence that the natives could not have been infected by any European bugs.

2. Immunity is declined during times of extreme fear especially over an extended period of time. This is clear that there had to have been violence right from the start. At least there would have been enough violence as to have the natives held in fear of their lives for extended periods of time.

3. With immunity declined they would have died of any infection, even those that they would have antibodies because the immune system is not active. Clearly the smallpox story is a lie.

The conquistadors saw these deaths a boon, a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God". They were happy that "the natives, are near all dead of the smallpox (so they claimed), so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." This is not missionary????

As for US pastors and US marines, mostly they are different and I feel sure that most of them are good and carry out their different duties honorably but there are some that are similar, eg Jim Jones was hardly a nice guy and we can find many accounts of marines that were violent outside of the call of duty.

kyrani99
29-11-15, 19:13
Muslims have already killed much more in the name of Muhammad, than Christians have ever killed for Christ.

The problem is that Christians don't like to see or even report on the atrocities they have committed but only to look at others.
1349 in about 350 towns in Germany all Jews were murdered, mostly burned alive. In that year more Jews were killed by Christians than in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians.

Catholic extermination camps
The Nazi extermination camps in World War II were not the only ones in Europe. In the years after the war ( 1942-1943 ) there were concentration camps in Croatia. They were run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor of the pope at that time. There were even concentration camps for children!

The most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar. Here orthodox-Christian serbians and a large number of Jews were murdered. Like the Nazis, the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, but where the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first, the Catholic Ustasha burnt them alive. The number of victims has been estimated to be between 300,000 and 600,000, in what is a tiny country. Many of the murderers were Franciscan friars and the pope knew about these atrocities and did nothing to stop them.

The begining of the Crusaders in Western Europe, when they captured Béziers in the heart of Cathar territory they followed the instructions of a papal legate. And when asked how the Crusaders should distinguish the heretics from true Christians he supposed have said, “Kill them all. God will know his own.” They massacred almost the entire population of the city.
The last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. An estimate of those killed in Cathar alone is one million.

This was the beginning of the Inquisition conducted by the judicial system of the Roman Catholic Church to combat heresy. And heresy in their way of thinking was anything that opposed their views. This was a period of 600 years of persecution for the sake of heresy, the "you got it wrong its not this it's that" far less than apostasy.

Those destroyed for heresy were the Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects were exterminated.

Then there is the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to some scholars this also runs into the millions (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.

If we add in the Asia-Pacific region and Africa we get many more millions.
It is not hard to find that there are more Christian murders for heresy and for not converting to the faith than there is Muslims for Apostasy. And we must take into account that many of the Muslim violence took place because of sociopolitical issues that were taking place. We tend to ignore this and blame Muslims indiscriminately.

Boreas
29-11-15, 19:18
Mohammeds idea it is this, what we have anout this: Koran and Sunna.


At least, a guy who was born in a muslim community. I have more right to say that. :good_job:

LeBrok
29-11-15, 20:05
Jesus preached peacefully, and Mohammed preached violently.

Jesus neither preached pacifism neither was a pacifist.

But the fruit of Jesus's teachings is peace, and fruit of Mohammed teachings is non ending violance.

This is the difference.

You only kid yourself. He was a definition of pacifist.

Jesus taught that the right response to aggression is love, not hate.
“Do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Matthew 5:39
“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.”

Matthew 5:44
“Blessed are the peacemakers”

Matthew 5:9
“Peace I leave with you, my peace I give you.”

John 14v27

When Jesus was arrested, he would not let his disciples use violence to prevent his arrest:
“Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. ‘Put your sword back in its place,’ Jesus said to him, ‘for all who live by the sword will die by the sword.’ Enough of this, stop it!”

Luke 22:49-51

Christians who try to follow Jesus’ example might say that because Jesus would not allow people to use violence to defend him, then violence is wrong, and that peaceful methods should be used.

http://www.rsrevision.com/GCSE/christian_perspectives/peace/pacifism/bible.htm

epoch
29-11-15, 20:30
Then there is the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to some scholars this also runs into the millions (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.


Very bad scholars, one may add. Scholars that tend to extrapolate where such a thing is not possibly. After regarding such numbers with scrutiny it turns out these "scholars" lumped demographic demise caused by such things as plague together with their figures.

Tomenable
29-11-15, 21:38
Catholic extermination camps

The Nazis disliked the Catholic Church, most of their supporters were Lutherans.

Share of Nazi votes was inversely proportional to share of Catholics in the population:

https://i.imgur.com/JK67iaA.jpg

And here an even better map, showing the same correlation between Protestant population and support for Nazis:

LINK (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/hitler.htm)


(...) This map shows the influence of religious conviction on the Nazi vote for the Reichstag election 7/32. Elevation represents the share of Catholics / protestants (the higher, the more Catholics live in a Kreis / county) in relation to total population. The Nazi vote share is represented by different color shadings (dark red: highest NSDAP share; light green: lowest NSDAP share). The map reveals that the NSDAP strongholds are clearly restricted to protestant areas. This becomes very clear e.g. in East Prussia, where in a small catholic enclave the NSDAP performed very poorly in comparison to the surrounding Kreise dominated by protestants. It is also inportant to note that of the 21 Nazi Germans tried as war criminals at Nuremberg 16 indicated they were "Protestant." Lets Look at three of the most distinguished German Protestant theologians--Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch. These men were highly respected, extremely erudite, uncommonly productive, and internationally known professors, each at a different, first-class university. (...)

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/Protnazi10.jpg

And by the way - camps were neither "Protestant" (though supported by Protestants), nor "Catholic" - but GERMAN.

And "German" is not a religion.

Tomenable
29-11-15, 21:49
Here orthodox-Christian serbians and a large number of Jews were murdered.

Now check how many Serbs and Jews in WW2 were murdered by Muslim Bosniaks and Muslim Albanians.

There were Muslim Waffen SS Divisions serving as allies of the Nazi Germany - for example SS "Skanderberg".

I don't even count killings by Muslim in WW2 as "victims of Islam", because they were not motivated by religion. I count only victims in the name of Allah as victims of Islam. SS "Skanderberg" killed in the name of a racial ideology, not Islam. That said, most of people ever killed by people who happened to be Christians, were also killed not because of religion. For example Germans decided to exterminate Jews, Slavs and Gypsies in WW2 due to their Scientific Racism Ideology, not because they happened to be Protestants.


If we add in the Asia-Pacific region and Africa we get many more millions.

"The death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 112 million":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA#t=513

Add to this the death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Europe, which was also many millions.

Tomenable
29-11-15, 22:06
^ Not to mention victims of Muslim slavery in Asia, including India, who also numbered many millions.


By the end of the 16th century 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas and just prior to and including that time more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."


These are some absurd numbers (the latter one is absurd).



An estimated total of around 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, some by direct violence (50 million) but most because they were forced to live under intolerable fear for extended periods of time.....by Christians!

The argument that 2/3rds died because of the colonists brought smallpox from Europe and they had no immunity to this. Hogwash!There were never 150 million people in the Americas before Columbus.

Not even the highest estimates claim that 150 million people lived there:

Here some good demographic estimates: http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/other_books/appendix_B.pdf

And most of those people lived in South America and Mesoamerica.

In North America north of Rio Grande there were 1,5 - 3,5 million people.

Tomenable
29-11-15, 22:14
Scientific evidence.
1. no one is infectious of any microorganism EXCEPT during the time of infection and illness. The Spaniards were not sick. They were healthy otherwise they would not have even crossed the ocean. This is evidence that the natives could not have been infected by any European bugs.

There is a thing called "incubation period", which is time between the actual infection, and first symptoms of a disease:

https://www.google.pl/search?client=opera&q=incubation+time+for+smallpox&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=incubation+period+for+smallpox


On average, the time between coming in contact with the smallpox virus and developing symptoms (the incubation period) is 12 days. The incubation period ranges from 7 to 17 days. The first symptoms of smallpox are high fever, fatigue, headaches, and backaches.

Then of course between first symptoms and death (or getting healthy again) there was also a long time.

They could get on board without knowing they were sick, develop first symptoms half-way, and still get to the New World.

LABERIA
29-11-15, 22:16
Now check how many Serbs and Jews in WW2 were murdered by Muslim Bosniaks and Muslim Albanians.

There were Muslim Waffen SS Divisions serving as allies of the Nazi Germany - for example SS "Skanderberg".


Honestly i do not know where to check. You look more informed. Can you help us by bringing this information? It`s the only way to make credible this post.
What i know is that during WWII, several Albanians partisan brigades from Albania and Kosova, continued to pursue and develop battle with the Nazis until the complete liberation of Yugoslavia. These units conducted fighting until Visegrad Bosnia. Many Albanian partisans gave their lives and blood for the liberation of Yugoslavia. When these units with Albanian partisans retreated to Albania after the end of hostilities, the Serbian Communists treacherous as they are as a nation, started to commit atrocities against Albanians of Kosova. This is History, and not BS.
About the jews, it is a known fact that the Albanians protected the jews during WWII. This fact is recognized by the State of Israel and Jewish organizations around the world.

So you have to check well your sources.

Tomenable
29-11-15, 22:26
Read about Muslim SS divisions and their operations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg #Operations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_ (1st_Croatian)#Composition

More about Albanian and Bosniak Nazi collaborators:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Albanian_collaborators_with_Nazi_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bosnian_Muslim_collaborators_with_Nazi_Ge rmany


and Jewish organizations around the world.

Such as the Jewish Task Force, perhaps ??? :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00qsLjYDG0Y

Tomenable
29-11-15, 22:46
Anyway history is irrelevant to this debate.

There is no problem of Christian terrorism in the world today.

We are dealing with Islamic terrorism now.

LABERIA
29-11-15, 22:51
Read about Muslim SS divisions and their operations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg #Operations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_ (1st_Croatian)#Composition

More about Albanian and Bosniak Nazi collaborators:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Albanian_collaborators_with_Nazi_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Bosnian_Muslim_collaborators_with_Nazi_Ge rmany



Such as the Jewish Task Force, perhaps ??? :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00qsLjYDG0Y

First of all i want to make clear that is out of my interest what happened between serbs and other south slavs, musslims and catholics. I am speaking about albanians.
Personaly i don`t prefer to use Wiki. I can enter now and edit the pages posted by you.
Let see what british military sources have to say:
1945
Ralph Skrine Stevenson:
Kosova in the spring of 1945

The Second World War ended in Europe on 7 May 1945. German forces had withdrawn from Kosova on 19 November 1944 on their retreat northwards, leaving the region in a state of confusion and uncertainty. British career diplomat, Ralph Skrine Stevenson, who had served in Spain during the Spanish Civil War and was later to become British Ambassador to Egypt, was in Yugoslavia after the German withdrawal and sent the following report to the Foreign Office, describing the turbulent state of events in Kosova and western Macedonia in the spring of 1945.

Belgrade, 21th April, 1945
1. I have the honour to report that there have recently been a number of indications that in the last few months there has been serious unrest amongst the Albanian population of the Kosovo and Metohija, and the north-western corner of Macedonia
2. The areas in question have throughout the war been in the main hostile to the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation and it appears that up to the present the partisan movement has found little sympathy or understanding there. This is due to a number of factors, the chief of which was the repression of the Albanian minority by the Yugoslav Government between 1920 and the present war.
3. In the face of this strong opposition, the partisan movement in the Kosovo never reached considerable proportions. From 1941 efforts had been made to enlist some support amongst the Albanians and in that year, two delegates from Tito, Ali Dusanovic and Miladin Popovic, are believed to have attended a conference of the Albanian Communist party. They were arrested in Albania in 1942 but escaped with the help of Albanian Communists, and apparently continued to maintain contact between the Yugoslav partisans and the Albanian Communist party and to try to build up the partisan movement in the Kosovo and Metohija. Towards the end of 1943, the first was heard of Kosmet, the staff of the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation for the Kosovo and Metohija. This was responsible directly to Tito and consisted half of Serbs and half of Albanians, amongst whom were Mehmet Hoxha and Fadil Hoxha. Kosmet was forced to confine itself to political activity, mainly trying to abate anti-Serb feeling among the Kossovars. Some attempt was made to set up a partisan political organisation in the Kosovo, and a few National Liberation committees were formed. Contact was maintained with the Serbian, Montenegrin and Macedonian partisans, and in 1944 a conference was held at Kolgecaj which the Serbian and Montenegrin partisans attended.
4. Despite the lack of military activity in the Kosovo, Kosovo units fought from an early date with the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation both in Macedonia and Serbia under the command of the headquarters for these areas. In 1942, two Kosovo battalions formed in the hills west of Tetovo and fought with the 1st Macedonian Brigade until transformed into the 1st Kosovo Brigade, about 800 strong, in June 1944.Another Kosovo brigade, some 400 strong, formed probably in the Skopska Crna Gora, was, in the early part of 1944, in the area east of the Nis-Skoplje railway. Part of the Kosmet staff were located in Serbian territory south of the Radan, protected by a battalion of about 100 Kossovars.
The partisan forces in the Kosovo remained, however, weak, and failed to bring in with them any other resistance movements, of which the most important was built up by Gan Kryeziu, a Kosovo landowner from the Djakovica area. Relations between Kryeziu and Kosmet were correct and occasional military operations are thought to have been carried out together, but because of his failure to join them, Kryeziu incurred the dislike of Kosmet, who are believed to have threatened his life. Furthermore, the attempts of the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation to send troops into the Kosovo were not successful. The resistance put up by the Kossovar frontier guards was fanatical, and in May the 2nd Corps, attempting to break through Montenegro, and in July the Serbian forces of Lieutenant-General Popovic advancing from the north on to Gnjiline, were driven back.
In general, the majority of the partisans, who had much to do with the Albanian minority during the war, such as General Vukmanovic Tempo, often stated that they were unregenerate bandits who must be brought to heel by harsh methods when the country was liberated. The Albanian minority in north-west Macedonia, many of whom belonged to the Bal Kombetar, were particularly regarded as brigands.
5. The fact that Kosmet was able to exist at all in the Kosovo was probably due to the support of the F.N.C. in Albania. So close was the liaison of Kosmet with the F.N.C. that British officers who penetrated the Kosovo at the end of 1943 believed Kosmet to be an offshoot of the F.N.C. The F.N.C. appear, however, to have recognised that Kosmet formed part of the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation rather than of their own forces and, during the summer of 1944, Hoxha publicly recognised Kosmet and recognised Kosovo as belonging to Tito's sphere of influence. From Macedonia, constant contact was maintained with the F.N.C. by Tempo and in the summer of 1944, joint operations were undertaken by units of the F.N.C. and of the Yugoslav Army of National Liberation against the Germans and Bal Kombetar in north-west Macedonia.
9. In the Kosovo, Miladin Popovic, Tito's early envoy to the Albanian partisans, was assassinated in Pristina on the 12th March.
Trouble, seems to have continued in north-west Macedonia, and on the 7th April, two O.Z.N.A. (police) brigades appeared in Skoplje in answer to a request from the Macedonian Federal Government for reinforcements. The area, bounded by the Albanian frontier, Sar Mountains, Skoplje, Karabzica Mountains, Brod, Kicevo, and inclusive of Tetovo and Gostivar to Debar, was reported on the 16th April to be a war zone owing to the alarming proportions which the Albanian rising there had assumed. Large forces were engaged, including the 1st Skoplje Cavalry Brigade, the 8th, 9th and 16th Macedonian Brigades, and other unidentified troops from the Bitolj area.
7,000 Albanians were alleged to have been imprisoned in Tetovo and large numbers of Albanians from the Skoplje area to have taken to the woods, 140 having deserted from the municipal power station in one day. In Skoplje itself there were continual rumours of Albanian trouble and 12,000 Albanians were stated to have been forcibly deported from the Kumanovo, Gnjiline and Vranje area to the Banat. There is little independent confirmation of these reports, but towards the end of March, there was talk in Belgrade of Albanians being marched northwards through the town under guard, and an American report of cases of typhus among Albanians in the Banat. From Split there were reports between the 5th and 8th April of the arrival of three parties of Kossovars, totalling about 2,000 men and some of them under guard, who were said to have been mobilised in the Kosovo to clear the area of troublesome factions after trouble in the neighbourhood of Pristina.
10. In recent conversations with members of my staff, General Velebit has confirmed that conditions have been disturbed in the Kosovo and attributed this mainly to the dropping of parachutists by the Germans. These, he said, were mainly drawn from the Skanderbeg Division. He maintained, however, that the trouble is now largely over, due in the main to the co-operation in the suppression of the rising of troops of the Albanian National Liberation Army whose lack of racial differences from the rebels and obvious sympathy with partisan aims has made a deep impression. The presence of troops of the Albanian National Liberation Army in the area is confirmed by an American report of the 25th March to the effect that the 5th Division of the Albanian National Liberation Army was in the Kosovo with its headquarters at Kosovoska Mitrovica. General Velebit said that in the north-west corner of Macedonia there was a certain amount of brigandage, but this had been the case even before 1941. The Minister for Macedonia made much the same comment.
18. I am sending copies of this despatch to the Resident Minister, Central Mediterranean; His Majesty's Ambassador in Athens; Lieut.-Colonel Clarke, 37 Military Mission, in Bari; and to the British Delegation in Belgrade.


I have, &c.
RALPH SKRINE STEVENSON
[from: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 939-944.]

1945
Brigadier Edward Hodgson:
Report on the Present Administration of Albania

Report on the Present Administration of Albania



May 29, 1945
7. The Albanian National Liberation Army

(a) A.N.L.A. strength is estimated at about 60,000 including all personnel under arms.
(e) The Albanian formations previously fighting in Yugoslavia have now been withdrawn to Albania or Kossovo.


[British Foreign Office document, preserved in the National Archives in London (FO 371/48091).]

LABERIA
29-11-15, 22:55
From Split there were reports between the 5th and 8th April of the arrival of three parties of Kossovars, totalling about 2,000 men and some of them under guard, who were said to have been mobilised in the Kosovo to clear the area of troublesome factions after trouble in the neighbourhood of Pristina.


http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/ata/1996/96-09-19.ata.html#03

LABERIA
29-11-15, 23:00
The presence of troops of the Albanian National Liberation Army in the area is confirmed by an American report of the 25th March to the effect that the 5th Division of the Albanian National Liberation Army was in the Kosovo with its headquarters at Kosovoska Mitrovica. General Velebit said that in the north-west corner of Macedonia there was a certain amount of brigandage, but this had been the case even before 1941. The Minister for Macedonia made much the same comment.
18. I am sending copies of this despatch to the Resident Minister, Central Mediterranean; His Majesty's Ambassador in Athens; Lieut.-Colonel Clarke, 37 Military Mission, in Bari; and to the British Delegation in Belgrade.


I have, &c.
RALPH SKRINE STEVENSON
[from: Bejtullah D. Destani (ed.), Albania & Kosovo: Political and Ethnic Boundaries, 1867-1946. Documents and Maps. Slough: Archive Editions, 1999, p. 939-944.]

1945
Brigadier Edward Hodgson:
Report on the Present Administration of Albania

Report on the Present Administration of Albania



May 29, 1945
7. The Albanian National Liberation Army

(a) A.N.L.A. strength is estimated at about 60,000 including all personnel under arms.
(e) The Albanian formations previously fighting in Yugoslavia have now been withdrawn to Albania or Kossovo.




About the albanian units who fought for the liberation of Yugoslavia:
I will quote you another source, which I have no desire to quote, I am forced, Enver Hoxha. I am an anticomunist and i hate him.

Communist leaders in Eastern countries had a habit that publish their memoirs. They were very careful when talking about international problems, because they knew that their books were read out of the country. For international problems they were correct, the interpretation of those facts was of course ideological. Of course their style of writing causes inconvenience.
http://www.enverhoxha.info/english/books.php
http://www.enverhoxha.info/_img/_books/v8d8qThe-Titoites%20.jpg

"I was in Berat when I received the news about the liberation of our beloved capital city, and a little later, the news of the liberation of virtually all Albania. From Berat I issued the order to some other brigades of our triumphant army to cross our state borders and advance into Yugoslavia. There these brigades, together with two other brigades of our army (the 5th and 3rd), which had received orders to cross the border in September and had liberated most of Kosova, were to continue thle war against the German nazis, fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Yugoslav partisan comrades. I instructed our partisans that they must fight unsparingly in complete unity with the Yugoslav partisans and in an internationalist spirit for the liberation of the peoples of Yugoslavia. And the Albanian partisans made the word of their Communist Party a reality. [B]They fought with great heroism in Kosova, Montenegro, Sandjak, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Serbia and Macedonia. In these battles hundreds of our partisans were killed and thousands wounded. But the Titoites trampled with both their feet over their heroism and blood and repaid us with hostility and plots against our Party and our socialist Homeland. Nevertheless, we carried out an internationalist duty, and irrespective of what happens, the peoples of Yugoslavia will never forget this sacrifice which the Albanian people made for them.
I mentioned above our action in sending some units of our army to assist in the liberation of Kosova and the peoples of Yugoslavia in the hot pursuit of the nazi beast.
The entry of our forces finto Kosova once again confirmed the patriotic vitality and undaunted revolutionary spirit of the people of Kosova. What the Tempos and others had been deliberately saying for years on enti about the people of Kosova describing them as «linked with reaction» was quickly refuted. From valiant Kosova, especially after the entry of our forces, 53 000 young men and women filled the ranks of the brigades of the National Liberation Army of Albania and those of Kosova. Although young partisans, they distinguished themselves for their bravery in the war against the nazi-fascists, just like the older partisans. The entry of our brigades brought about that the state power of the national liberation councils, comprised of the finest patriotic sons of Kosova, was extended over the whole province.
However, precisely when the whole of Kosova had turned finto a hotbed of the National Liberation War, suddenly an order Game from Tito's staff that the partisan forces of Albania and those of Kosova should leave Kosova and pursue the nazi enemy «to the north» of Kosova, deep finto Yugoslavia. Our forces carried out this order, becausa they had gone there to pursue fascism until the complete liberation of the peoples of Yugoslavia. But later we were to learn that the purpose of Tito's order about «the pursuit of the enemy in depth» was nothing but an almost precise repetition of that trickery which the kraljs and princes had tried to carry through in the past. in the fight against the Ottoman yoke. Especially when they saw clearly that the Ottoman forces were being routed and Albania was on the eve of independente the kraljs of Serbia and the princes of Montenegro left nothing undone so that the Albanian insurgent forces should leave Kosova which was liberateti and engage themselves as long as possible in the pursuit of the Ottoman torces in other regions «to the south». Their aim was that the Serbo-Montenegrin armies could occupy Kosova and other Albanian regions without meeting the resistance of the Albanian insurgent forces, or even of the Ottoman occupation forces. This is precisely what Tito was doing in 1945. The Titoite forces entered Kosova, liberateti by the forces of our army and the Kosova forces, in order to eliminate the national liberation councils that had been set up and to launch the unrestrained mass terror against the Albanians. These unprecedented reprisals of the Titoites quite rightly caused a great popular revolt which put the «new Yugoslavia» in doubt, because the people of Kosova were not seeing any differente from what they had suffered under the «old Yugoslavia». In this extremely difficult situation the patriotic people of Kosova demanded «the return of the Albanian partisans», with the aim that the situation should be resolved justly and the savage terror stopped. In order to avoid the further complication of the situation Tito and company were obliged to agree to this demand, and the partisans returned. No kind of «organized reactionary» forces, such as the Yugoslav propaganda talked of, were found in Kosova, but a people who welcomed our partisans exactly as if they were carrying out a second liberation of Kosova. Calm was re-established and after this Tito planned new manoeuvres. Now that the war was over, in the new situation he could solve the acute problems in Kosova with his own forces. However, in order to do this, far from the eyes of the world, and especially far from our eyes, fit was necessary that our forces should be finally withdrawn from Kosova and return to Albania. But how? The direct withdrawal of our forces from Kosova over the then state borders would create unpleasant, perhaps grave, scenes for the Titoites. The people of Kosova might rise in revolt again when they saw that the forces of our army were withdrawing. To overcome this stuation Tito again copied the kraljs of the past and staged the need to pursue reactionary bands towards the south, towtds Greece» and for this he sought the «aid» of those forces of ours which were there. We, who stili did not understand Tito's filthy plans, ordered our divisions to act. After they reached the southernmost borders of Macedonia our forces were told that «there was no further need» for them to stay in Yu;oslavia! The border was crassed in the zone of Korça and Preda, far from the eyes of the people of Kosova. Tito and Rankcvié were left free tc operate, as they did, with their barbar)us methods against martyred Kosova.



IV



WITH TITO



Tito's unexpected invitation to go to Belgrade • Official talks between the Albanian and Yugoslav delegations. Discussion of the ques.tion of Kosova and the other Albanian regions in Yugoslavia • Tito aims to gobble up the whole of the Balkans m Policy of extermination in Kosova • Tito's haughtiness and scandalous luxury • About the visits in Croatia and Slovenia • Ceremony in the Presidium of the Yugoslav Skupstina • A meeting with Tito in Bled. HNas Tito» or «Duce a noi!»? • On the Treaty of Friendship and Mutual Aid • «Aid» in driblets.


Looking down from the aircraft on the territory of Montenegro and other regions of Yugoslavia I thought with deep grief and great respect of the hundreds of my partisan comrades who were killed in these parts while fighting the German nazis. On the order which I issued from Berat on the eve of the complete liberation of Albania two divisions of young men and women of Albania crossed the border and won fame in those parts for their heroism, self-sacrifice, discipline, internationalism and fighting skill, in fierce battles with the occupiers. Sitting in the aircraft I thought about those dear Albanian mothers who unhesitatingly sent their sons and daughters to join in the war for the liberation of the Homeland, a war which required these sons and daughters, educated by the Party of communists, to think about and go to shed their blood for the freedom of the neighbouring peoples, too. Thousands returned from these heroic battles, but hundreds fell on the battlefield in the territory of Yugoslavia, and at those moments I thought about the hundreds of Albanian mothers who were waiting for us to bring the sacred remains of their sons and daughters home. «We shall do it!» I said to myself, «It is our duty! They will lie in the most beautiful places in the Homeland where the generations will sing to their glory and heroism throughout history.»* *( The remains of hundreds of our martyrs who fell in Kosova, Montenegro and elsewhere were brought back to Albania and buried in the Cemetery of the Martyrs of the Nation or in the martyrs' cemeteries of the respective districts in 1947 and in 1975.)
The aircraft reached Belgrade and we were looking down on the capital......"

To put it simple.
Because of the genocide committed by the Serbs, for almost a century, Kosova Albanians were determined to fight the Serbs after the withdrawal of the Germans. To avoid this, the Yugoslav Communists sought the assistance of the Albanian communists. Albanian partisans entered in the province and were welcomed by Kosovo Albanians. They organized communist structures and at the request of Yugoslavs continued operations in Sandzak and Bosnia. After departure the Albanian partisans in the north, in pursuit of Germans, Serbs treacherously entered the province and committed atrocities against Albanians, among them the massacre of the Tivar (Bar).
These two issues are today known to all in Albania and are part of the political debate in Albania between the left and right. Because the right accused Communists as traitors to the national cause. But these are other problems.

LABERIA
29-11-15, 23:07
About the jews:
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/besa/introduction.asp

Besa: The Promise

http://40.media.tumblr.com/89e85deeb0fbf56349b75a5f1c484273/tumblr_mzh4foCb7F1rtxb17o1_500.jpg

"There is an expression: Ne bese tane - under your given promise. My life is in your hands. Albania - apologies for any lack of modesty here - is known for this."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_%28Albanian_culture%29
According to Albanian historian Apostol Kotani, Jews may have first arrived in Albania as early as 70 C.E. as captives on Roman ships that washed up on the country's southern shores. Kotani believes that is was the descendants of these captives that would build the first synagogue in the southern port city of Sarande in the fifth centry.
Following World War I, the few remaining Jews in Albania, lived primarily in Koritsa. By 1930, the national census reported only 204 Jewish inhabitants. Despite this low number, in 1935, British journalist Leo Elton visited Albania and reported to the president of the Hebrew University in Jersualem that Albania an ideal refuge for the Jews. On April 2, 1937, the Jewish community was granted official recognition by the government. The largest Jewish populations were located in Kavaje and Vlora. Approximately, 600 Jews were living in Albania prior to World War II, 400 of whom were refugees.

By the end of the war Albania was home to about 2,000 Jews due to the bravery of Albanian citizens in risking their own lives to provide a haven for the fleeing Jews from neighboring countries. Albania was the only Nazi-occupied territory to experience an increase in Jewish population during the Holocaust.

By January 2011, the Israeli Holocuast Memorial Museum Yad Vashem had recognzied 69 Albanians as Righteous Gentiles - those who helped shetler or save Jews from the Nazi's during the Holocaust.

http://www.cjnews.com/uncategorized/harpers-address-holocaust-remembrance-ceremony

At a national Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremony at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa yesterday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper gave a keynote address to the Jewish community - See more at: Harper's address to Holocaust remembrance ceremony | The Canadian Jewish News (http://www.cjnews.com/harpers-address-holocaust-remembrance-ceremony#sthash.8LO0gWtK.dpuf)

"At the end of today’s ceremony will be the launch of an exhibit from Yad Vashem, on Muslim Albanians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.
We have much to learn from their example.
Following Nazi occupation in 1943, the Albanians refused to turn over lists of Jews within their borders.
They gave false documents to Jews, to help them avoid detection.
The country protected not only its own Jewish citizens; they welcomed an even larger number of Jewish refugees from neighbouring lands.
As a result, almost all of them were saved.
What is the reason for this magnificent example?
It is besa, a code of honour, the highest ethical code in Albania.
Besa means literally “to keep the promise” – to keep one’s word, to the point of being someone in whom a person in need can entrust his or her very life".


"Rescue in Albania" // Documentary Film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ8szhccfZM

Muslim Families Who Saved Jews in World War II

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MdxW6SnVNI

Besa: The Promise - Movie Trailer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJBBdXtzXpQ

Albert Einstein benefited from Albanian help to transit through Europe to America. He stayed in Durrës on the Albanian coast for three days in the royal mansion and then, equipped with an Albanian passport, continued his journey towards the free world.
But not only musslim albanians saved jews, all the albanians helped those peoples.

LABERIA
29-11-15, 23:15
Anyway history is irrelevant to this debate.

There is no problem of Christian terrorism in the world today.

We are dealing with Islamic terrorism now.

Ok, but don`t put all the people at the same bag.
Albanian government as the government of a country NATO is providing assistance in the struggle against terrorism. In coordination with the relevant NATO structures, large quantities of ammunition and weapons are sent to aid the rebel Kurdish.

bicicleur
29-11-15, 23:36
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/29/turkish-human-rights-lawyer-shot-dead-during-press-conference

the accusation that PKK is responsable doens't make any sense at all

it looks like the Turkish government itself is responsable, as it is for the 'terrorist' attack in Ankara

Sile
30-11-15, 07:44
[QUOTE=Boreas;471790]You are incredle.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/07/FT_15.07.24_womenLeadersMap.png

So Modern Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Indonesia have been ruled by womens which makes nearly 37% of all Muslims (according to current populations)

How do you explain it? Do 37% of Muslim some kind of masochist so they were ruled by women (who were second class citizen) ?



What are silly answer...........neither you or me will be leaders of anything, why do you want to bring up women in power...........I am talking about every other women, 99% that are second or third class citizens in moslem society, especially arabic women.



How do you know mohammed's idea what much certainly, are you talking with him in your dream? :grin:




Yes, I can.

Let me help you to understand, Quran was written after the Muhammed, so I can totally say that Muhammed didn't see this Quran and didn't give his approval.

Even Satan has been tried to get in Quran

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

Or there is also goat issue. A goat ate some parts (which is about stoning) of Quran(before collecting and making a book) etc...

Well to all the fools who believe in any writings of religious books, by MEN who have their own agenda, ................you are all brain dead.
People know how to read and write now, they must surely realise these religious books are in majority propaganda , are wrong and are entirely used to subjugate the illiterate to be "enslaved" by practices which GOD did not create.

Ike
30-11-15, 08:12
Because of the genocide committed by the Serbs, for almost a century, Kosova Albanians were determined to fight the Serbs after the withdrawal of the Germans.

Deliberate mistakes?

1. Albanians were on Nazi side from the beginning. They were promised the territory of Kosovo for plundering and murder, and they've jumped at it with a smile.
2. Albanians were the one committing ethnic cleansing. Whole world knows what you did in Kosovo from 1950-1990. Numbers speak for themselves:

7539

Your intentions are quite clear from your behavior. Lets disregard the Serbs, but why do you persecute all the other ethnic minorities since the occupation of the province in 1999?

Boreas
30-11-15, 13:46
[QUOTE]
What are silly answer...........neither you or me will be leaders of anything, why do you want to bring up women in power...........I am talking about every other women, 99% that are second or third class citizens in moslem society, especially arabic women.


I have no idea what kind of drug are you using in Australia :laughing:, but women-men equality is world problem. I will try to focus on other 99% as you wish, my friend.



http://www.worldpolicy.org/sites/default/files/uploaded/image/Screen%20Shot%202014-03-14%20at%203.18.25%20PM_0.pnghttps://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/03/Capture3.png&w=1484
Let's criticize women's experience of male physical abuse. Poland, Japan, New Guniea, Spain and Turkey. Let's accept high percent of violence in Belgium because of Muslim immigrants. Will you able to say same thing for Japan, Bolivia and Poland?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xetcSKHp4Rc/TbRGG1l1EdI/AAAAAAAAAAM/pkkpbJyY8zs/s1600/map%2Bon%2Bdomestic%2Bviolence.jpg


Before that type charges, please think first. :good_job:

Arban Hoti
30-11-15, 16:58
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims#Ni.C5.A1_and_the_wi der_Toplica_and_Morava_regions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
http://espressostalinist.com/genocide/albanian-genocide/
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_1.html
We have carried out the attempted premeditated murder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder) of an entire nation. We were caught in that criminal act and have been obstructed. Now we have to suffer the punishment.... In the Balkan Wars, Serbia not only doubled its territory, but also its external enemies.
— Dimitrije Tucović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrije_Tucovi%C4%87)

Sile
30-11-15, 19:49
[QUOTE=Sile;471853]

I have no idea what kind of drug are you using in Australia :laughing:, but women-men equality is world problem. I will try to focus on other 99% as you wish, my friend.



http://www.worldpolicy.org/sites/default/files/uploaded/image/Screen%20Shot%202014-03-14%20at%203.18.25%20PM_0.pnghttps://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/03/Capture3.png&w=1484
Let's criticize women's experience of male physical abuse. Poland, Japan, New Guniea, Spain and Turkey. Let's accept high percent of violence in Belgium because of Muslim immigrants. Will you able to say same thing for Japan, Bolivia and Poland?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xetcSKHp4Rc/TbRGG1l1EdI/AAAAAAAAAAM/pkkpbJyY8zs/s1600/map%2Bon%2Bdomestic%2Bviolence.jpg


Before that type charges, please think first. :good_job:



What does violence have to do with equality by law by the constitution of a nation?

You are deflecting the issue ....................get to the legal facts.

Boreas
01-12-15, 14:39
What does violence have to do with equality by law by the constitution of a nation?


In women issue, being second class citizen and facing violence are parallel issues. Without real social situations, laws don't makes sense. Laws are for giving a order/shape the society. If they can't change the society or keep the order of society, they are just a piece of paper.

kyrani99
01-12-15, 17:39
Very bad scholars, one may add. Scholars that tend to extrapolate where such a thing is not possibly. After regarding such numbers with scrutiny it turns out these "scholars" lumped demographic demise caused by such things as plague together with their figures.

The scholars have every right to make the connection between the inquisitions and witch hunts etc., as well as wars and ill-treatment of natives by colonizers for deaths due to plagues.

There is such a thing as the "germ theory", which says that microorganisms cause infectuous diseases. Indeed we can find evidence in that microorganisms are present and if we give appropriate medication, eg antibiotics, which kill bacteria, we can treat the disease.. in many cases. And associated with this theory is the notion that people have developed immunity over generations so the argument goes that the American natives died because of the introduction of European bugs brought across by the colonialists. This is rubbish. EVERY infant has NO adaptive immunity only inate immunity, which does not discriminate for a particular microbe. So the truth is that there is no bugs that we have become immune to over the generations.

BUT it is worse because even the germ theory is incomplete. It neglects a critical factor and that has to do with the immune system. In states of fear, where there is a perceived external threat or danger the immune system is declined. Normally an external danger only lasts for a short time so the body rationalizes its resources to give the musculature an advantage. It therefore declines the immune, digestive and reproductive systems.

If there is an ongoing danger or threat, especially when it lasts for months or years, then there is a long term decline of immunity with devastating consequences as is seen in ALL plagues throughout history. And it stands in dire contradiction to the excuses and reason given that the microbes came from the East or came from the West, North or South. The population decline may also not be due to simply the death toll. The number of births is also in decline if people's reproductive systems are in decline. It means they are less able to reproduce or to be able to sustain a pregnancy.

If you look up this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics and investigate the history of the time in each case you will find that there was war, famine, revolutions or harsh treatment of natives at the hands of colonialists, e.g.,

Reign of Justinian I there was the Justinian plague. What was going on at the time.. a reign of terror for many people, not only pagans but also Christians who held views that didn't coincide with Justinian's views.
The Great Plague or Black Plague. There was famine, cold climate sure but there was also wars, the inquisistion and a variety of revolts.

If we look at China from where they claim the black plague's bacterias come riding on the fleas that rode on the rats that came in the traders caravans over the Silk Road, you have to ask yourself why was there no plague in China? Why was there no noticeable reduction of the population in China? After all the European lost about 60% of the population during the worst of the times about 200years.

Mexico in 1545-1548, there was famine but there was also massive cruelty from the Spaniards.

Australia 1789-1790 there was a smallpox epidemic in Aboriginal people and what was happening at the time, whites were taking their land off them, killing them off to clear the land and so on. A reign of terror.

429–426 BC Athens a devastating plague but again this was the second year of the Peloponnesian War (430 BC) and people living in terrifying times.

There is justifiable grounds to associate the deaths of war /inquisitions/ colonialists' maltreatment of natives and death toll due to plagues.

kyrani99
01-12-15, 18:37
Muslims have already killed much more in the name of Muhammad, than Christians have ever killed for Christ.

Some are doing this way too slowly, and some in the wrong direction (e.g. Islam seems to be becoming more violent).

BTW - there were studies which measured how level of religious devotedness correlates with violence. And guess what, Devoted Jews and Devoted Christians were not more violent than those without strong faith, while in case of Muslims there was a positive correlation - the more Devoted a Muslim is, the more violent he/she is. Maybe because Jesus was a socialist-pacifist hippie, who never harmed a fly and let himself get crucified, while Muhammad was a ruthless conqueror! Islam is not a religion of peace.

The essential difference between Christianity and Islam is in the very core roots of these religions.

Take a look at the biography of Jesus, then take a look at the biography of Muhammad...

For instance - Jesus preached pacifism, Muhammad preached (and practiced!) war.

IMO
The Christians are not killing in the name of Christ but in the name of money and exploitation of natural resources and the policy of "divide and rule". The Muslims are killing in the name of defending their territories from Western aggression, but also in disputes with each other over territory.

I don't think we can say that Jesus was a pacifist because there is a lot of contradiction in the scriptures. For instance when Jesus went into the temple and saw the corruption he did not say "I forgive you" but instead whipped them. Plus we have nothing written by Jesus himself, nor even from his apostles. All of the gospels are "the gospel according to......"

I also strongly believe that Paul/Saul portrayed Jesus in the manner that suited the Romans. He was a Jew but also a Roman citizen and very likely a Roman agent. There are political reasons for many of the words put into Jesus's mouth, especially those of pacifism. Love thy enemies and forgive thy enemies. I doubt very much that Jesus ever uttered these words.

There was a lot of interest in Judaism by the Greeks. There was Hellenic Judaism and Gnosticism. So there was a lot of sympathy for the Jews by the Greeks of the times. And don't forget the Eastern Roman Empire was essentially Greek city states with a few extras such as Palestine. Meanwhile the Jews were in revolt. If the Romans had tried to crush them before they had a chance to brainwash their Greek subjects they may have lost the Eastern Roman Empire. So I believe what they did was use Paul/Saul to re-invent Jesus and portray him in a manner that would dis-empower the Greeks and then attack Palestine and crush the Jews, which is exactly what they did. And this "pacifism" has dis-empowered millions ever since with dire consequences.

The Muslims on the other hand, may have corrupted the Koran to some extent, in adding in tribal laws and customs, but from my own understanding and experience at least, I see that the theology is sound. And there is ample indication that while Mohammed supports defending one's self and property/ territory, he also uphold ideals that speak loudly for peace and co-operation between people with differences in culture and religion.

According to Feisal Abdul Rauf, "the Quran expressly and unambiguously prohibits the use of coercion in faith because coercion would violate a fundamental human right—the right to a free conscience. A different belief system is not deemed a legitimate cause for violence or war under Islamic law. The Quran is categorical on this: "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256); "Say to the disbelievers [that is, atheists, or polytheists, namely those who reject God] "To you, your beliefs, to me, mine"

We are prompted to see whole groups when in fact the enemy is not "the Christians" or"the Muslims" or any particular nation. The enemy is hidden and interwoven throughout every society on earth. Whether you like to believe it or not, there are evil people (what psychiatrists call functional psychopaths or successful psychopaths), who are networked. There is no one big network and there are not signed up memberships or leaders etc. There are small networks that have become inter-connected simply because evil people, like all other people move from one place to another. The difference however is that while humane people form circles of friends for the joy of friendship, evil people make new "like-minded friends" because they need others to play the power games they play and to ensure what they call "the quintessential".. the ability to hurt others and get pleasure from seeing their suffering. These are the real enemy and they are in every culture.

Tomenable
01-12-15, 19:06
If we look at China from where they claim the black plague's bacterias come riding on the fleas that rode on the rats that came in the traders caravans over the Silk Road, you have to ask yourself why was there no plague in China?

Kyrani, the plague is much older than previously thought - we now know that it existed already in the Early Bronze Age, and it was then being spread by people expanding from the Eurasian steppe (that is, Proto-Indo-Europeans, among others). We don't have written records about that plague, because Europe and China were still illiterate at that time (but I guess that there was plague in China at that time). The plague which hit later in the Middle Ages was caused by a mutated version of the same Yersinia pestis:

This is a very recent discovery, but it's certain - they have found confirmed traces of plague from the Bronze Age:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151022124532.htm


(...) They say the new evidence that Y. pestis bacterial infection in humans actually emerged around the beginning of the Bronze Age suggests that plague may have been responsible for major population declines believed to have occurred in the late 4th and early 3rd millennium BC.

The work was conducted by an international team including researchers from the universities of Copenhagen, Denmark, and Cambridge, UK, and the findings are published today in the journal Cell.

"We found that the Y. pestis lineage originated and was widespread much earlier than previously thought, and we narrowed the time window as to when and how it developed," said senior author Professor Eske Willerslev, who recently joined Cambridge University's Department of Zoology from the University of Copenhagen.

"The underlying mechanisms that facilitated the evolution of Y. pestis are present even today. Learning from the past may help us understand how future pathogens may arise and evolve," he said.

Researchers analysed ancient genomes extracted from the teeth of 101 adults dating from the Bronze Age and found across the Eurasian landmass from Siberia to Poland.

They found Y. pestis bacteria in the DNA of seven of the adults, the oldest of whom died 5,783 years ago -- the earliest evidence of plague. Previously, direct molecular evidence for Y. pestis had not been obtained from skeletal material older than 1,500 years.

However, six of the seven plague samples were missing two key genetic components found in most modern strains of plague: a "virulence gene" called ymt, and a mutation in an "activator gene" called pla.

The ymt gene protects the bacteria from being destroyed by the toxins in flea guts, so that it multiplies, choking the flea's digestive tract. This causes the starving flea to frantically bite anything it can, and, in doing so, spread the plague.

The mutation in the pla gene allows Y. pestis bacteria to spread across different tissues, turning the localised lung infection of pneumonic plague into one of the blood and lymph nodes.

Researchers concluded these early strains of plague could not have been carried by fleas without ymt. Nor could they cause bubonic plague -- which affects the lymphatic immune system, and inflicts the infamous swollen buboes of the Black Death -- without the pla mutation.

Consequently, the plague that stalked populations for much of the Bronze Age must have been pneumonic, which directly affects the respiratory system and causes desperate, hacking coughing fits just before death. Breathing around infected people leads to inhalation of the bacteria, the crux of its human-to-human transmission.

Study co-author Dr Marta Mirazón-Lahr, from Cambridge's Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies (LCHES), points out that a study earlier this year from Willerslev's Copenhagen group showed the Bronze Age to be a highly active migratory period, which could have led to the spread of pneumonic plague.

"The Bronze Age was a period of major metal weapon production, and it is thought increased warfare, which is compatible with emerging evidence of large population movements at the time. If pneumonic plague was carried as part of these migrations, it would have had devastating effects on small groups they encountered (...) Well-documented cases have shown the pneumonic plague's chain of infection can go from a single hunter or herder to ravaging an entire community in two to three days." (...)

The plague is around 6,000 years old (at least 5,783 years old):

http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674%2815%2901322-7


The most recent common ancestor of all Y. pestis was 5,783 years ago

http://s29.postimg.org/rjadhqg6v/Plague.jpg

http://www.dailygrail.com/Essays/2015/10/Nightmares-the-Future-THE-PLUTOCRATIC-EXIT-STRATEGY-Plague-Progress-News-Update


One of the key quotes in Part 2 of the Plutocratic Exit Strategy series was that:

"plague may have played a larger role in the past than we imagined"

That was made in relation to the discovery of "flea-like creatures" in fossils from the Age of the Dinosaurs that are thought now to be one of the agents of their extinction; insects which, acting as "carriers of disease, may have played a role in the demise of the ancient reptiles."

In today's news we learn that the role plague has played in shaping human history has been pushed back by 3000 years, to mark the beginning of the Bronze Age. That in fact, plague may have caused the mass migration and cultural and technological transfer that kick started this new era of human civilisation.

As Nature reports the story:

http://www.nature.com/news/bronze-age-skeletons-were-earliest-plague-victims-1.18633

DNA from Bronze Age human skeletons now shows that the plague had first emerged at least as early as 3,000 bc. The earlier outbreak (...) may (...) have driven mass migrations across Europe and Asia.

The Bronze Age — between about 3000 and 1000 bc — was a tumultuous period that saw new cultural practices and weapon and transport technologies spread rapidly across Eurasia. Earlier this year, a pair of ancient-genome studies documented a massive exodus of people from the steppe of what is now Russia and Ukraine; they scattered west into Europe and east into central Asia.

“But we didn’t know what the cause of these quite sudden migrations was,” says Morten Allentoft, an evolutionary geneticist at the Natural History Museum of Denmark in Copenhagen, who was part of a team that sequenced DNA from 101 Bronze Age skeletons.

Such outbreaks could have aided the spread of Eastern European steppe herders known as the Yamnaya during the Bronze Age, says Johannes Krause, an evolutionary geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany. The Yamnaya rapidly supplanted local farming populations in Western Europe between 3000 and 2500 bc. “How is it possible that the local farmers have been replaced by people from the steppe? A pandemic is a good possibility,” Krause says.

http://www.dailygrail.com/sites/dailygrail.com/files/storyimages/nature-plague-map-22-10-15.jpg

For some microbiologists, this discovery has not been surprising at all:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5679-Early-Divergent-Strains-of-Yersinia-pestis-in-Eurasia-5-000-Years-Ago


I thought everyone knew that Y. pestis home was the Eurasian steppes mostly in Asia, and by extension the steppes where the Proto-Indo-Europeans are said to come from in far eastern Europe. Steppes, grasslands and prairies are Rodent heaven, and rodents have fleas or ticks or some other disease transmitting vector. Wherever people live they make it suitable for rodents and other pests. Ever wondered why Northern Europeans have a greater immunity to the Plague? The steppes north of the Caucasus region is the homeland of Indo-Europeans and Northern Europeans. The two go together like a hand in a glove.

Tomenable
01-12-15, 19:34
The Muslims are killing in the name of defending their territories from Western aggressionNot sure what you are talking about. The original Muslim territory is only the Arabian Peninsula.

Other Muslim territories had belonged to the Roman Empire and to the Persian Empire, and were either Pagan, Christian, Zoroastrian or Jewish, etc., etc. - but not Muslim -, before they got conquered by the Muslims and subjected to Islamization.

In this thread I have posted a link to a study concerning conversions to Islam under Arab rules.


then attack Palestine and crush the Jews, which is exactly what they did.

The Crusaders attacked the Muslims in Palestine. Jews had been expelled from Palestine by the Romans.

Some Jews stayed there, but they got conquered by the expanding Arabs.

European Jews came to Palestine in the 20th century, expelling the Arabs and creating the State of Israel.


And there is ample indication that while Mohammed supports defending one's self and property/ territory

In times of Mohammed only the Arabian Peninsula was the property / territory of the Muslims.

A little more than one century later they ruled over vast swathes of Eurasia stretching from Iberia to India.

It really, really does not look like "defending" anything - it was a war of conquest and aggression.


There was a lot of interest in Judaism by the Greeks. There was Hellenic Judaism and Gnosticism. So there was a lot of sympathy for the Jews by the Greeks of the times. And don't forget the Eastern Roman Empire was essentially Greek city states with a few extras such as Palestine. Meanwhile the Jews were in revolt. If the Romans had tried to crush them before they had a chance to brainwash their Greek subjects they may have lost the Eastern Roman Empire.

I don't think there was such a "perfect harmony" as you described. There was much hatred between Jews and Greeks within the Roman Empire and many pogroms of one group by the other group took place. For example in Cyprus local Jews organized massacres of local Greeks. In other places it was the other way around, with Greeks attacking Jewish Diaspora communities.

kyrani99
01-12-15, 19:36
Kyrani, the plague is much older than previously thought - we now know that it existed already in the Early Bronze Age, and iwas later being spread by people expanding from the Eurasian steppe (that is, Proto-Indo-Europeans, among others). We don't have written records about that plague, because Europe and China were still illiterate at that time (but I guess that there was plague in China at that time). The plague which hit later in the Middle Ages was caused by a mutated version of the same Yersinia pestis:



The point I am trying to make is that "the plague" of which ever era you care to name is always associated with some sort of mass threat and/ or hardship. Medical science is not spelling the matter out properly IMO. The bacteria may be from the beginning of time. This is a whole different matter, but it is being sold as "the plague" or some disease. Disease is only the resulting condition of either the body's failure to fight off an infection or the period in which the body is making a more strenuous effort to fight off infection due to a poor immune response.

We have an adaptive immune system. When we come into contact with a pathogenic microbe.. whatever it is a bacteria, virus, protozoa etc., our system recognizes it as a pathogen when it attacks our cells. The dying cells, infected and under attack will break up the microbe and display portions of it on the cell surface. Immune system cells see these and act on that information to form antibodies (as well as other means of defense eg compliment system). The antibodies are then used to fight off the invaders and some of these are kept in memory cells for any further attack to be more quickly dealt with. So it is not a case that "the plague existed since the year dot". The plague is only the manifestation of disease that is cause by:
1. the invading organisms, yersinia pestis in this case AND
2. the failure of the immune system to fight them off.

The second cause is due to prolonged fear because fear declines immunity and if it is prolonged then there is no immune response.
The point is that anything, even a germ to which a person has immunity, can cause that person harm IF their immune system is not working/ in decline due to fear.
We meet new bugs all the time and any new bug that a person may encounter can be effectively dealt with and destroyed so that no sickness results.

Tomenable
01-12-15, 19:51
In Europe plague has existed constantly for hundreds of years, and - when it comes to smallpox - adults were immune to smallpox because most of them had survived it as children (those who had not survived, never became adults - because they died).

In the Americas smallpox was new - it means, that neither children nor adults were immune to it. When smallpox (and then other exclusively Eurasian diseases) hit Native Americans, entire population got infected, because nobody was immune.

When entire population is infected, there is noone left to take care of those who are sick. There is simply noone left to provide food and medical care. This means that mortality had to be much higher, even if their immune systems were not so weak.


The second cause is due to prolonged fear because fear declines immunity

Starvation also causes decline of immunity, and when everybody was infected, there was noone left who could provide food.

Many parts of the Americas were hit by the plague before first Europeans showed up - so there was no fear of Europeans.

==================================

EDIT:

I agree with you, that "the plague" is some catastrophic event when an extraordinarily high % of the population is sick.

But we must remember, that in Europe smallpox was constantly killing people. When there was "a plague", it was simply killing extraordinarily large numbers of people over very short periods of time. But smallpox was one of the main killers in Europe ALL THE TIME, also when there was no plague. Check my thread about death causes of people in Warsaw as late as the 1800s:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31168-Difference-in-death-causes-among-Christians-amp-Jews-of-Warsaw-in-years-ca-1800-1805

As you can see Smallpox and Tuberculosis were among the main causes of death in Warsaw as late as years 1800 - 1805.

So it was not the case, that there was one "Black Death" in the 1300s, and later Europeans were disease-free.

Infectious diseases were killing Europeans all the time, but they were doing it slowly most of the time.

Rapid increases in mortality caused by infectious diseases is what we call "plagues". As for the Americas - they were disease-free until the 1500s. They did not have smallpox. Their first encounter was in the 1500s. So here is the main difference - for Europeans, children killed by smallpox was everyday reality, while for Native Americans it was something new. And in Europe adults were immune to smallpox, so the main victims were always children, while in the Americas nobody was immune when Columbus landed.

EDIT 2:

I can't agree that lower immunity must always be caused by "fear" or some other "trauma".

What about mutating bacteria and viruses? A new mutated version of a bug, can be the reason of lower immunity for it. Adults have immunity for old versions of a bug, but once a bug mutated and became a new version, there was - initially - no immunity for that new version. And mortality rates were then rapidly increasing also among adults, causing what we call "a plague".

kyrani99
01-12-15, 20:00
Not sure what you are talking about. The original Muslim territory is only the Arabian Peninsula.

Other Muslim territories had belonged to the Roman Empire and to the Persian Empire, and were either Pagan, Christian, Zoroastrian or Jewish, etc., etc. - but not Muslim -, before they got conquered by the Muslims and subjected to Islamization.

In this thread I have posted a link to a study concerning conversions to Islam under Arab rules.
.

Iraq and Afghanistan.. are they not Muslim territories / nations? Also Palestinian lands are Muslim territory. That is what I meant.


The Crusaders attacked the Muslims in Palestine. Jews had been expelled from Palestine by the Romans.

Some Jews stayed there, but they got conquered by the expanding Arabs.

European Jews came to Palestine in the 20th century, expelling the Arabs and creating the State of Israel.



The crusaders came a lot later. I am talking about the Jewish revolt. The Romans crushed them and reduced their temple to ruins in 66-70AD Paul/Saul missionary journey was between 52 to 62AD. After that in 62AD he was supposedly arrested. How many people do you know who are arrested and spend their "jail time" as a guest of the Emperor? And allowed to continue their missionary work!





In times of Mohammed only the Arabian Peninsula was the property / territory of the Muslims.

A little more than one century later they ruled over vast swathes of Eurasia stretching from Iberia to India.

It really, really does not look like "defending" anything - it was a war of conquest and aggression.

These may be empires because peoples had converted to Islam but maybe you're right. Even if so it is no different to Alexander the Great's conquests, the colonial empires of Britain, France and other European nations and these days the Americans as well only they have a different approach that is not so obvious.

Tomenable
01-12-15, 20:04
I have edited my last post (please read also the text added after "EDIT" and "EDIT 2").


Iraq and Afghanistan.. are they not Muslim territories / nations?

They weren't before the 7th - 8th centuries. They became Muslim only after getting conquered by Muslims.

Of course it doesn't mean that the USA is justified to invade them every time they want to. As for Iraq - it is a kind of an "artificial state", isn't it? There was no such historical nation. Also, many distinct religious denominations and ethnic groups were included in it.

Kurds who aspire to have their own nation-state, are currently split between Iraq, Syria, Turkey and Iran...

Tomenable
02-12-15, 04:23
"Islamic State Manifesto: Sleeper Cells Sent To Europe Posing As Refugees":

http://www.investigativeproject.org/5052/islamic-state-manifesto-sleeper-cells-sent-to#


The Islamic State claims it sent highly trained sleeper agents to Europe through Turkey posing as refugees as far back as 2012. A 99-page manifesto issued in January, "Black Flags from Rome," also details the Islamic State (ISIS)'s desire to spark a Europe-wide Islamic insurgency using "Muslim No Go Zones" as bases of operations.

As an example, it claims that some Syrian refugees fled to Italy. "No doubt, some of these refugees were undercover fighters of Al Qa'idah and the Islamic State," the manifesto says. "They were quick to take the opportunity of entering into the different countries of Europe (most probably as early as 2012). All this was happening under the nose of the European intelligence services whose job during this time (2012) was only to prevent European Muslims from entering Syria. (This shows how quick the Islamic groups were in planning ahead. Years before Europe even knew where its Muslim citizens were going - experienced Islamic fighters had already found safety in Europe.)"

These highly trained fighters were instructed to form secret cells and wait until called on by the Islamic State's self-proclaimed caliph, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. At that time they would "continue the Jihad and ... seek revenge for the Western occupation of Muslim lands." "Black Flags From Rome" claims the sleeper agents were well-trained in urban combat tactics similar to this month's Paris attacks. It proudly contrasts past Al-Qaida's terrorists with its fighters, whom it describes as "untrained" and "vulnerable," noting that Western intelligence agencies never faced professionally trained fighters with combat experience.

"These young Europeans had been professionally trained, and given training most specific to the context of the war they would battle within Europe," the manifesto says.

ISIS training included instruction on buying and firing weapons and making improvised explosives. Such training could explain the sophistication of the Paris attacks and the attackers' competence in making suicide vests, which experts say takes weeks of training.

"Their locations were unknown, and police raids wouldn't even have the same impact as unarmed lone wolf terrorists' (sic), because these young men were armed and able to shoot back in groups. There were small armies of the Islamic State within every country of Europe by late 2014, and the intelligence agencies didn't even know about it!" the manifesto says.

ISIS propagandists based in Syria were quick to take responsibility for the attacks. An updated edition titled "Black Flags From the Islamic State," written in the past week, calls them "one of the first organised attacks done by the Islamic State in Europe which involved a Network of Cells working together in an organized way."

Police described the Paris attackers as "seasoned fighters by the looks of it and perfectly trained, with witnesses describing them as quite young and cool-headed," the London Daily Telegraph reports.

Furthermore, during the attacks, a mid-level Syrian Islamic State leader known as @Jazrawi_Oooud tweeted during the attacks: "... Syrian refugees sent by Islamic state carried out today's offensive names battle of Paris. More to come."

This statement came out a day before the media or French authorities mentioned any possibility that people who might have infiltrated the wave of refugees from Syria could have been responsible for the attacks. A fake Syrian passport bearing the name "Ahmad alMohammad" was found next to a suicide bomber who blew himself up at the soccer stadium. Two other stadium bombers arrived on Oct. 3, blending in with scores of refugees on the Greek island of Leros.

Several of the Paris attackers fought for ISIS in Syria and their leader, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, freely traveled to and from Europe. The Islamic State claims it selected Abaaoud to lead the mission and trained him in insurgency skills before sending him to France to create clandestine cells with the aim of starting a jihad in France. Abaaoud hid among the flow of refugees from Syria, and travelled to Turkey and Greece before making his way to France, according to "Black Flags From the Islamic State."

If what "Black Flags From Rome" and "Black Flags From the Islamic State" say is true, it could influence subsequent debate over the flood of refugees from Syria and Iraq into Europe and possibly America.
It could mean that the attacks in Paris weren't just a sign of a wounded Islamic State lashing out at Europe in retaliation for lost territory in Iraq as some suggest. The Black Flag manifestos, and a third called "How to Survive in the West: A Mujahid's Guide," all show a greater strategy to import the group's jihad to Europe.

"Once the media attention dies down, the Islamic State will tell another "sleeper Cell" (secret Cell which has not yet activated) to do another attack again," Black Flags From the Islamic State says.

"How to Survive in the West: A Mujahid's Guide", published in 2015 (PDF file, 71 pages):

http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/863.pdf

"Black Flags from Rome. The Coming Insurgency", published in 2015 (PDF file, 99 pages):

https://ia802600.us.archive.org/0/items/EbookBlackFlagsFromRome/Ebook-blackFlags-from-rome.pdf

"Black Flags from the Islamic State. How al-Qa'idah became the IS (1986-2016)", 130 pages:

http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/864.pdf

Table of contents from "How to Survive in the West: A Mujahid's Guide":


http://s16.postimg.org/m0gk8nyw5/How_to_Survive_in_the_West.png

Tomenable
02-12-15, 05:04
How many Special services secret agents have already immigrated to Europe?:


Chapter 11: The Jihad Begins

By now you will have; Anonymity, Money, weapons, Training, knowledge of how to make improvised explosives anywhere, how to transport dangerous things secretly and how to avoid spies. You are now your own one man army! Say Alhamdulillah, and thank Allah He has taught you what you did not know yesterday. You are now a Special services secret agent, and your job now is to support the Jihad. (...)

And this excerpt is from "Black Flags...":


Final Chapter – Be prepared for a Global War which will hit every member of this Ummah (global community):

We are living in the time of global Jihad, when the war now is not about countries fighting each other for land, but for dominance of ideas (our battle is to make the Truth superior over falsehood). The leaders and strategists of the global Jihad like Osama bin Laden, Abu Mus'ab al-Suri, and Abu Bakr Naji wanted sincere believers from every land to start their own Jihad project based on the guidelines they lay out for us. Today the Islamic State is leading the global Jihad, and we are seeing the different strategies they have used.

Remember that Jihad in every Muslim land started with only a few sincere men who relied on Allah, and look how Allah blessed their efforts. Allah gave them 'izzah (respect and authority) after they sacrificed their free time and comfort to reach Paradise.

So they are loved by believers and they are an example like the Sahaba (Companions of Prophet Muhammad) in giving light to the Earth after it had been filled with the darkness of misguidance. We see that there is no honor for the believers, except through Jihad. Do you see how humiliated the Muslims who keep saying 'Peace, peace!' are? Yet look at those who are changing history, the world is in awe of them. You could be one of those people who are honored in this life and the next, if only you follow their path.

The battle will wage in every country, and this is why there is over 1 and a half Billion Muslims in the world.

"The religion of piss" ...

FBS
02-12-15, 16:12
IMO
The Christians are not killing in the name of Christ but in the name of money and exploitation of natural resources and the policy of "divide and rule". The Muslims are killing in the name of defending their territories from Western aggression, but also in disputes with each other over territory.

I don't think we can say that Jesus was a pacifist because there is a lot of contradiction in the scriptures. For instance when Jesus went into the temple and saw the corruption he did not say "I forgive you" but instead whipped them. Plus we have nothing written by Jesus himself, nor even from his apostles. All of the gospels are "the gospel according to......"

I also strongly believe that Paul/Saul portrayed Jesus in the manner that suited the Romans. He was a Jew but also a Roman citizen and very likely a Roman agent. There are political reasons for many of the words put into Jesus's mouth, especially those of pacifism. Love thy enemies and forgive thy enemies. I doubt very much that Jesus ever uttered these words.

There was a lot of interest in Judaism by the Greeks. There was Hellenic Judaism and Gnosticism. So there was a lot of sympathy for the Jews by the Greeks of the times. And don't forget the Eastern Roman Empire was essentially Greek city states with a few extras such as Palestine. Meanwhile the Jews were in revolt. If the Romans had tried to crush them before they had a chance to brainwash their Greek subjects they may have lost the Eastern Roman Empire. So I believe what they did was use Paul/Saul to re-invent Jesus and portray him in a manner that would dis-empower the Greeks and then attack Palestine and crush the Jews, which is exactly what they did. And this "pacifism" has dis-empowered millions ever since with dire consequences.

The Muslims on the other hand, may have corrupted the Koran to some extent, in adding in tribal laws and customs, but from my own understanding and experience at least, I see that the theology is sound. And there is ample indication that while Mohammed supports defending one's self and property/ territory, he also uphold ideals that speak loudly for peace and co-operation between people with differences in culture and religion.

According to Feisal Abdul Rauf, "the Quran expressly and unambiguously prohibits the use of coercion in faith because coercion would violate a fundamental human right—the right to a free conscience. A different belief system is not deemed a legitimate cause for violence or war under Islamic law. The Quran is categorical on this: "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256); "Say to the disbelievers [that is, atheists, or polytheists, namely those who reject God] "To you, your beliefs, to me, mine"

We are prompted to see whole groups when in fact the enemy is not "the Christians" or"the Muslims" or any particular nation. The enemy is hidden and interwoven throughout every society on earth. Whether you like to believe it or not, there are evil people (what psychiatrists call functional psychopaths or successful psychopaths), who are networked. There is no one big network and there are not signed up memberships or leaders etc. There are small networks that have become inter-connected simply because evil people, like all other people move from one place to another. The difference however is that while humane people form circles of friends for the joy of friendship, evil people make new "like-minded friends" because they need others to play the power games they play and to ensure what they call "the quintessential".. the ability to hurt others and get pleasure from seeing their suffering. These are the real enemy and they are in every culture.

I agree with every word kyrani99. I may disagree in many other of your posts but with this one, you've nailed it.

LeBrok
02-12-15, 17:17
IMO
The Christians are not killing in the name of Christ but in the name of money and exploitation of natural resources and the policy of "divide and rule". The Muslims are killing in the name of defending their territories from Western aggression, but also in disputes with each other over territory.

I don't think we can say that Jesus was a pacifist because there is a lot of contradiction in the scriptures. For instance when Jesus went into the temple and saw the corruption he did not say "I forgive you" but instead whipped them. Plus we have nothing written by Jesus himself, nor even from his apostles. All of the gospels are "the gospel according to......"

I also strongly believe that Paul/Saul portrayed Jesus in the manner that suited the Romans. He was a Jew but also a Roman citizen and very likely a Roman agent. There are political reasons for many of the words put into Jesus's mouth, especially those of pacifism. Love thy enemies and forgive thy enemies. I doubt very much that Jesus ever uttered these words.

Wait a minute, you are not being objective and consequential at all. Both of these examples come form the same source, and yet you believe only one is true?!!!



We are prompted to see whole groups when in fact the enemy is not "the Christians" or"the Muslims" or any particular nation. The enemy is hidden and interwoven throughout every society on earth. Whether you like to believe it or not, there are evil people (what psychiatrists call functional psychopaths or successful psychopaths), who are networked. There is no one big network and there are not signed up memberships or leaders etc. There are small networks that have become inter-connected simply because evil people, like all other people move from one place to another. The difference however is that while humane people form circles of friends for the joy of friendship, evil people make new "like-minded friends" because they need others to play the power games they play and to ensure what they call "the quintessential".. the ability to hurt others and get pleasure from seeing their suffering. These are the real enemy and they are in every culture. I pretty much agree with this. The "Evil" is in us, and religion is used to legitimize bad actions. To have god(s) backing you, gives an ultimate authority, even if you do "evil".

matbir
02-12-15, 20:11
The scholars have every right to make the connection between the inquisitions and witch hunts etc., as well as wars and ill-treatment of natives by colonizers for deaths due to plagues. Do not bull s**** us. The basic knowledge is that witch hunt occurred in countries under influence of reformation. Catholic countries ware much more conservative in that matter so inquisition killed much less people then angry crowds in heretic countries. Example in Southern catholic Europe (Portugal, Spain and Italy) there was only 10 000 trials and less then 1000 convicted in 300 years (1450-1750) while in Holy Roman Empire there was about 50 000 trials and 25 000 to 30 000 convicted.
In whole Catholic Europe there was about 20 000 trials and up to 4 000 convicts for 300 years in protestant Europe 60 000 trials and up to 34 000 convicts. So the reality of inquisition was 80% of suspects ware found not guilty - that means scared people throw accusations but only few of accused was found to be violating the law. But in protestant countries there was no authority to hold back that madness.
BTW Inquisition was convicting only people who did not want to admit publicly that what they sad and done before was heresy.
I recommend book: “Witchcraft and magic in Europe” volume 4 William Monter - author among others. Data I mentioned are from that William's estimations.


There is such a thing as the "germ theory", which says that microorganisms cause infectuous diseases. Indeed we can find evidence in that microorganisms are present and if we give appropriate medication, eg antibiotics, which kill bacteria, we can treat the disease.. in many cases. And associated with this theory is the notion that people have developed immunity over generations so the argument goes that the American natives died because of the introduction of European bugs brought across by the colonialists. This is rubbish. EVERY infant has NO adaptive immunity only inate immunity, which does not discriminate for a particular microbe. So the truth is that there is no bugs that we have become immune to over the generations.
I have read that church scriptures from 16th century from Peru shows that Amerindians had lots of children but majority of them was dead until the age of 5. Ask someone who deals with this problem instead of telling that whole story is rubbish.

Aaron1981
02-12-15, 20:43
Do not bull s**** us. The basic knowledge is that witch hunt occurred in countries under influence of reformation. Catholic countries ware much more conservative in that matter so inquisition killed much less people then angry crowds in heretic countries. Example in Southern catholic Europe (Portugal, Spain and Italy) there was only 10 000 trials and less then 1000 convicted in 300 years (1450-1750) while in Holy Roman Empire there was about 50 000 trials and 25 000 to 30 000 convicted.
In whole Catholic Europe there was about 20 000 trials and up to 4 000 convicts for 300 years in protestant Europe 60 000 trials and up to 34 000 convicts. So the reality of inquisition was 80% of suspects ware found not guilty - that means scared people throw accusations but only few of accused was found to be violating the law. But in protestant countries there was no authority to hold back that madness.
BTW Inquisition was convicting only people who did not want to admit publicly that what they sad and done before was heresy.
I recommend book: “Witchcraft and magic in Europe” volume 4 William Monter - author among others. Data I mentioned are from that William's estimations.


I have read that church scriptures from 16th century from Peru shows that Amerindians had lots of children but majority of them was dead until the age of 5. Ask someone who deals with this problem instead of telling that whole story is rubbish.


Of course...says the good Polish Catholic. Not biased at all are we? Since the Reformation happened quite late in history, and Roman Catholicism has, simply for sake of argument, quite a number more centuries under its belt than any Reformed church, your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Angela
02-12-15, 23:27
Of course...says the good Polish Catholic. Not biased at all are we? Since the Reformation happened quite late in history, and Roman Catholicism has, simply for sake of argument, quite a number more centuries under its belt than any Reformed church, your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

How is that relevant when the prior poster is comparing Catholic versus Protestant Europe for the same 300 year period?

matbir
03-12-15, 02:36
Of course...says the good Polish Catholic. Not biased at all are we? Since the Reformation happened quite late in history, and Roman Catholicism has, simply for sake of argument, quite a number more centuries under its belt than any Reformed church, your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense. O, I see, you seem to have special abilities to predict somebody’s' faith.

For the rest I see Angela have stolen my point ;)

To do good comparison of regimes or institutions you need to check time and standards. I bet you that in Muslim countries and even more in far eastern ones cruelty was even bigger then in Europe.

Ike
03-12-15, 03:22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims#Ni.C5.A1_and_the_wi der_Toplica_and_Morava_regions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Albanians_in_the_Balkan_Wars
http://espressostalinist.com/genocide/albanian-genocide/
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_1.html
We have carried out the attempted premeditated murder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premeditated_murder) of an entire nation. We were caught in that criminal act and have been obstructed. Now we have to suffer the punishment.... In the Balkan Wars, Serbia not only doubled its territory, but also its external enemies.
— Dimitrije Tucović (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrije_Tucovi%C4%87)

You can say whatever you like on this Nazi forum. But the truth is out there in the fields. I know it, you know it, and I hope other people here will never know it first hand.

LeBrok
03-12-15, 03:44
I bet you that in Muslim countries and even more in far eastern ones cruelty was even bigger then in Europe. What do you base your assumption on?
I'm sure Europeans know how to stick a guy on a sharpened post, how to blow a guy tide to a canon or ripped apart with horses, how to remove fingernails, how to burn a guy or a girl slowly, or six million of them, etc. I'm sure you would love to forget how crafty Europeans are with torture and industrious with mass killing.

matbir
03-12-15, 12:38
What do you base your assumption on?
I'm sure Europeans know how to stick a guy on a sharpened post, how to blow a guy tide to a canon or ripped apart with horses, how to remove fingernails, how to burn a guy or a girl slowly, or six million of them, etc. I'm sure you would love to forget how crafty Europeans are with torture and industrious with mass killing.
Mass extermination never happened in Europe before the rise of Marxist revolution in Russia (Bolsheviks) and Germany (National Socialists). While in China mass extermination happened in 1755-1758 when 80 % out of 600 000 Oirats ware killed or died (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide). Today after 250 years so more or less 10 generations all Oirat tribes consists of around 600 000 people 1/3 of them - Kalmyks lives in European Russia.
If you are shocked by number of killed during which hunt, you would be even more by learning about Muslim conquest and rule in India; same time period, number of victims about 10 000 times higher. Do not ask me check for your self, it was hundreds of millions people. Mass castration of Hindus was very common practice.

That is one of many reasons why in 18th and 19th century literature Asians are described mostly as savages, habits of Asians were far too cruel for Europeans to admire their culture.
When Europeans turned their backs on Christianity they started same practices as Asians, we know from Germany and Russia. Nazis even found inspiration in Islamic ideology.
Himmler: Islam is a practical and sympathetic religion for soldiers"; "Islam is very similar to our world view"

Hitler referring to Poles and Armenian Genocide: "Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order–and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism–that the aim of {translator: this} war does not consist in reaching certain {translator: geographical} lines, but in the enemies’ physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death’s Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

LeBrok there is no assumption, just facts.

BTW during WW II Japanese weren’t much less skilled in death industry then Germans or Communists. Numbers speak for themselves.

bicicleur
03-12-15, 13:27
Mass extermination never happened in Europe before the rise of Marxist revolution in Russia (Bolsheviks) and Germany (National Socialists). While in China mass extermination happened in 1755-1758 when 80 % out of 600 000 Oirats ware killed or died (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide). Today after 250 years so more or less 10 generations all Oirat tribes consists of around 600 000 people 1/3 of them - Kalmyks lives in European Russia.
If you are shocked by number of killed during which hunt, you would be even more by learning about Muslim conquest and rule in India; same time period, number of victims about 10 000 times higher. Do not ask me check for your self, it was hundreds of millions people. Mass castration of Hindus was very common practice.

That is one of many reasons why in 18th and 19th century literature Asians are described mostly as savages, habits of Asians were far too cruel for Europeans to admire their culture.
When Europeans turned their backs on Christianity they started same practices as Asians, we know from Germany and Russia. Nazis even found inspiration in Islamic ideology.
Himmler: Islam is a practical and sympathetic religion for soldiers"; "Islam is very similar to our world view"

Hitler referring to Poles and Armenian Genocide: "Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order–and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism–that the aim of {translator: this} war does not consist in reaching certain {translator: geographical} lines, but in the enemies’ physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death’s Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

LeBrok there is no assumption, just facts.

BTW during WW II Japanese weren’t much less skilled in death industry then Germans or Communists. Numbers speak for themselves.

allways big outrage when there is something happening in the west, but in the mean time we let ISIS and Boko Haram have their way

in 2014 more than 32000 people were killed by terrorists, Boko Haram is number one, ISIS is second
this year it will be more
all this outrage for 130 killed in Paris, while every average day that many are killed

and don't tell me Islam has nothing to do with it

LeBrok
03-12-15, 17:41
Mass extermination never happened in Europe before the rise of Marxist revolution in Russia (Bolsheviks) and Germany (National Socialists). They were Europeans, right?




Hitler referring to Poles and Armenian Genocide: "Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Hitler was European, right?


Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, Give me a source of this claim.

LeBrok there is no assumption, just facts.

BTW during WW II Japanese weren’t much less skilled in death industry then Germans or Communists. Numbers speak for themselves. Stop helping me.

You missed my point totally. There is no way to figure out who of all the human races and ethnicities is more cruel than others. All are capable of the same crimes and bestiaries.

kyrani99
03-12-15, 18:14
In Europe plague has existed constantly for hundreds of years, and - when it comes to smallpox - adults were immune to smallpox because most of them had survived it as children (those who had not survived, never became adults - because they died).

In the Americas smallpox was new - it means, that neither children nor adults were immune to it. When smallpox (and then other exclusively Eurasian diseases) hit Native Americans, entire population got infected, because nobody was immune.

When entire population is infected, there is noone left to take care of those who are sick. There is simply noone left to provide food and medical care. This means that mortality had to be much higher, even if their immune systems were not so weak..

There is no case to be made about a disease being "new and thus having no immunity". Whether child or adult, IN EVERY case a person who is confronted by a new organism will build immunity. There is no such thing as any inherited immunity. When we encounter a new organism our immune system recognizes it and builds a defense, i.e., antibodies are made from characteristic bits of the offending microorganism and are displayed on the surface of infected cells and immune cells to alert other immune cells that these are pathogens and need to be destroyed. Thus the immune system sets about to kill the invaders. Sure if you have had the disease as a child you have already got that immunity but you can still get the immunity as an adult.




Starvation also causes decline of immunity, and when everybody was infected, there was noone left who could provide food.

Many parts of the Americas were hit by the plague before first Europeans showed up - so there was no fear of Europeans..


Starvation over time will cause a person fear for survival and thus declined immunity.
There is probably very few cases if any where all of the population is sick. It is possible to have microorganism that are pathogenic in a person's system that do not lead to disease. This is being labelled as "latent infection".

There may have been plagues in the Americas before Europeans but you will find that they would have been associated either with natural disaster, eg fires or famines etc., or by warring tribes.



==================================

EDIT:

I agree with you, that "the plague" is some catastrophic event when an extraordinarily high % of the population is sick.

But we must remember, that in Europe smallpox was constantly killing people. When there was "a plague", it was simply killing extraordinarily large numbers of people over very short periods of time. But smallpox was one of the main killers in Europe ALL THE TIME, also when there was no plague. Check my thread about death causes of people in Warsaw as late as the 1800s:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31168-Difference-in-death-causes-among-Christians-amp-Jews-of-Warsaw-in-years-ca-1800-1805

As you can see Smallpox and Tuberculosis were among the main causes of death in Warsaw as late as years 1800 - 1805.

So it was not the case, that there was one "Black Death" in the 1300s, and later Europeans were disease-free.

Infectious diseases were killing Europeans all the time, but they were doing it slowly most of the time.

Rapid increases in mortality caused by infectious diseases is what we call "plagues". As for the Americas - they were disease-free until the 1500s. They did not have smallpox. Their first encounter was in the 1500s. So here is the main difference - for Europeans, children killed by smallpox was everyday reality, while for Native Americans it was something new. And in Europe adults were immune to smallpox, so the main victims were always children, while in the Americas nobody was immune when Columbus landed..

I will answer you also in the thread above.
I did not say that later Europeans are disease-free. I was only talking about the Black Death because it was a particularly bad plague.
Certainly the plague was a catastrophic event but this is not what I meant. I meant that where you find plague you find that there is some catastrophic event or events happening that stress masses of people at the same time.

There is a difference between an individual's life and the community's life.
We see disease all the time but in small amounts because it affects individuals and their lives vary so while most people may feel safe and secure and thus have a good immune response some people may be suffering abuses and hence suffer with a reduced immune response.




EDIT 2:


I can't agree that lower immunity must always be caused by "fear" or some other "trauma".

What about mutating bacteria and viruses? A new mutated version of a bug, can be the reason of lower immunity for it. Adults have immunity for old versions of a bug, but once a bug mutated and became a new version, there was - initially - no immunity for that new version. And mortality rates were then rapidly increasing also among adults, causing what we call "a plague".

Viruses and bacteria can mutate till the cows come home but they won't affect the immune response of a healthy unstressed individual. Mutating microorganisms are a headache only for the pharmaceutical companies who are keen to make money selling vaccines and if the microorganisms mutate then they have to go back to the laboratory and start again.

Also an individual who is stressed can respond to the stress in a way that helps maintain their normal immune response. I can vouch for this personally. I have upset toxic people, who have been aggressively seeking to destroy me for 15 years now and I can still maintain my health. This is the secret that big pharma wants hidden.

kyrani99
03-12-15, 18:48
The Nazis disliked the Catholic Church, most of their supporters were Lutherans.

Share of Nazi votes was inversely proportional to share of Catholics in the population:

https://i.imgur.com/JK67iaA.jpg

And here an even better map, showing the same correlation between Protestant population and support for Nazis:

LINK (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/hitler.htm)



http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/Protnazi10.jpg

And by the way - camps were neither "Protestant" (though supported by Protestants), nor "Catholic" - but GERMAN.

And "German" is not a religion.

Well what about these?
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p101_Lang.html

https://promoteliberty.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/catholic-extermination-camps/

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/01/20/jasenovac-the-cruelest-death-camp-of-all-times-26/

kyrani99
03-12-15, 18:52
"The death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Africa is estimated at over 112 million":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA#t=513

Add to this the death toll from 14 centuries of the Muslim slave trade in Europe, which was also many millions.

Yes this is true but you have to see the responsibility of the Christians in the matter too. There is no trade where there is no market!

Edit.
The problem is we see only the group at large, so we talk about Christians and Muslims or we talk about the Germans, the Russian, the Greeks, the British etc., etc.,

Who is the enemy?
The problem is that humanity is made up of two completely different types of human beings. The majority is the humane and yes some of them might at times be swayed by common reasoning but while they may be persuaded into wars, they do not commit atrocities.

Then you have the inhumane, who may be as much as 20% of the world's population, 1/5th of approx. 7.2 billion. That is about 1.4 billion! They will offend because they hate justice and because they get pleasure out of the harm they do AND they exist in EVERY country. It is useless to talk about "us and them" if we are identifying whole nations or whole religious groups. Every nation and every religious group is a mixture and the badies hide behind a good public image in many cases. Some make themselves obvious but most don't.

bicicleur
03-12-15, 19:03
They were Europeans, right?


Hitler was European, right?

, Give me a source of this claim.
[/I] Stop helping me.

You missed my point totally. There is no way to figure out who of all the human races and ethnicities is more cruel than others. All are capable of the same crimes and bestiaries.

you didn't like what matbir told, did you?

did you know about the Muslim conquest of India?

I'm surprised you even didn't know about Dzjenghis Khan
he still is a hero in Mongolia, he has a big statute over there

try this for a starter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire
and don't miss the positive footnote in the end :
Environmental impact[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empir e&action=edit&section=8)]According to a study by the Carnegie Institution for Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Institution_for_Science)'s Department of Global Energy, the destruction under Genghis Khan may have scrubbed as much as 700 million tonnes of carbon from the atmosphere by allowing forests to regrow on previously populated and cultivated land.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire#cite_note-23)

you should be aware of human nature

people visit Auschwitz yet they fail to understand what Muslim fundamentalism stands for

kyrani99
03-12-15, 19:25
There is a thing called "incubation period", which is time between the actual infection, and first symptoms of a disease:

https://www.google.pl/search?client=opera&q=incubation+time+for+smallpox&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=incubation+period+for+smallpox



Then of course between first symptoms and death (or getting healthy again) there was also a long time.

They could get on board without knowing they were sick, develop first symptoms half-way, and still get to the New World.

There is a thing call the germ theory, which states that some diseases (i.e., infecteous diseases) are caused by microorganisms. This was of course the famous Dr Louis Pasteur.
Then along came the German doc Dr Robert Koch who said “if that was true then it would have to mean that….” and he put forth his four postulates.


The pathogenic microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
The microorganism must be re-isolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

And here there is trouble.
Koch discovered asymptomatic carriers of cholera and later, of typhoid fever. Oooops! Asymptomatic carriers have the microorganism but have no symptoms! Bit embarrassing.. so they call it “subclinical infection” because they are married to the idea that the microorganism causes the disease or at least an infection.

People who have the microorganism but have no symptoms, i.e.., are not harmed by the microorganism are now known to be a common feature of many infectious diseases, especially viruses such as polio, herpes simplex, HIV, and hepatitis C.

However while all doctors and scientists studying the microbes agree that the poliovirus causes paralysis in just a few of the infected subjects, by continuing to talk about infected subjects and insisting that the poliovirus is the cause of the disease, they serve big pharma and the successful sales of the polio vaccine as a preventative of the disease. It is doubtful that the polio vaccine was responsible for the downward trends of polio nor the other vaccines of the many other diseases, for which there are vaccines because the downward trend was already in place for decades before the vaccines and the vaccines did not change the shape of the downward trend. Here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuHra7ZcAa8
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuHra7ZcAa8)It is a long video (1.5hrs) but the trends are discuss in the first 20mins or so.

In the third postulate the wording is "should", not "must", because Koch and others showed clear evidence, we might even say proof, that at least with regard to tuberculosis and cholera, only some organisms, which are exposed to the supposed “infectious agent”, the microorganism, will become sick. And IMO they are devious in the way they explain this phenomenon. They say that “non-infection may be due to such factors as general health and proper immune functioning; acquired immunity from previous exposure or vaccination; or genetic immunity, as with the resistance to malaria conferred by possessing at least one sickle cell allele”. This of course preserves the germ theory and thus the reason to vaccinate.

The truth is that the microorganism IS NOT the causative agent of the disease. A person can be in good health and still get sick. The real reason is that if the person is being terrorized or feel they are in mortal danger for some reason over a prolonged period of time then they will have a depressed immunity for the well-known reason that fear declines immunity, when the danger is perceived to be external because the body seeks to manage its resources efficiently so as to give the musculature (which is needed in fight or flight) the best supply of its resources, ie sugars and oxygen to create the energy demands that may be needed. AND furthermore danger is only the preparation of the body or mobilization of the body for fight or flight. This means that fear will continue to dominate as long as the danger persists or the individual perceives it as current. It is in this atmosphere, when immunity is declined and not operative, at least not in sufficient levels, that the microorganisms may gain an advantage.

As for Columbus he stopped in Haiti on his first trip for a month and on his second trip too at another location for a long time. If he had anyone on board that was sick he would have known and left them behind. After all it makes no sense to travel with a sick person on such a voyage.

The Spanish and others that went to the Americas were brutally cruel to the natives and that is what caused them the problem. After all there may have been smallpox bugs in the Americas since the year dot! But that fact doesn't help sell vaccines. So the story is told that the bugs cause the disease.. the germ theory.

kyrani99
03-12-15, 19:44
There is no way to figure out who of all the human races and ethnicities is more cruel than others. All are capable of the same crimes and bestiaries.


I agree with you that it is often very hard to figure out who is cruel but I strongly disagree that we can talk about which races or ethnicities are more cruel than others. There are good and evil, humane and inhumane IN EVERY RACE. Not everyone is capable of the same crimes and bestiaries. I have seen time after time in families where either one or both parents are evil. They NEVER try to make a good /humane child evil because it never works. They aggressively train their evil/inhumane children in the ways of being evil and they persecute and torment their good/humane children.

Evil /inhumane people want to hide inside the group so they use phrases to try and convince others that are not evil and who are naive about evil. Saying such as "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" as if it applies to everyone is a way of putting everyone in the same group. It is false. There are plenty of examples where national /tribal leaders were benevolent and though held absolute power yet were never corrupted. The two that come to mind and which are highly relevant to this threat are Jesus and Mohamed. Both were benevolent and were prepared to fight and die along side their followers, who were also subjects in the case of Mohamed, to protect the whole from an enemy.

kyrani99
03-12-15, 20:03
Do not bull s**** us. The basic knowledge is that witch hunt occurred in countries under influence of reformation. Catholic countries ware much more conservative in that matter so inquisition killed much less people then angry crowds in heretic countries. Example in Southern catholic Europe (Portugal, Spain and Italy) there was only 10 000 trials and less then 1000 convicted in 300 years (1450-1750) while in Holy Roman Empire there was about 50 000 trials and 25 000 to 30 000 convicted.
In whole Catholic Europe there was about 20 000 trials and up to 4 000 convicts for 300 years in protestant Europe 60 000 trials and up to 34 000 convicts. So the reality of inquisition was 80% of suspects ware found not guilty - that means scared people throw accusations but only few of accused was found to be violating the law. But in protestant countries there was no authority to hold back that madness.
BTW Inquisition was convicting only people who did not want to admit publicly that what they sad and done before was heresy.
I recommend book: “Witchcraft and magic in Europe” volume 4 William Monter - author among others. Data I mentioned are from that William's estimations.

The connection I am pointing to is terror and plague, not how many died in witch hunts and inquisitions. The witch hunts and the inquisitions were times of terror for many people. The point is terrorized people are most likely to get sick and die and NOT those infected by a microorganism. There are plenty of cases, in fact it is quite common for people to have contacted a microorganism said to be the agent of disease and never get sick.




I have read that church scriptures from 16th century from Peru shows that Amerindians had lots of children but majority of them was dead until the age of 5. Ask someone who deals with this problem instead of telling that whole story is rubbish.

I don't know what you are taking about here. I was talking about immunity. EVERY child acquires adaptive immunity, which is the immunity the body uses to fight infections.

Angela
03-12-15, 20:40
Mass extermination never happened in Europe before the rise of Marxist revolution in Russia (Bolsheviks) and Germany (National Socialists). While in China mass extermination happened in 1755-1758 when 80 % out of 600 000 Oirats ware killed or died (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide). Today after 250 years so more or less 10 generations all Oirat tribes consists of around 600 000 people 1/3 of them - Kalmyks lives in European Russia.
If you are shocked by number of killed during which hunt, you would be even more by learning about Muslim conquest and rule in India; same time period, number of victims about 10 000 times higher. Do not ask me check for your self, it was hundreds of millions people. Mass castration of Hindus was very common practice.

That is one of many reasons why in 18th and 19th century literature Asians are described mostly as savages, habits of Asians were far too cruel for Europeans to admire their culture.
When Europeans turned their backs on Christianity they started same practices as Asians, we know from Germany and Russia. Nazis even found inspiration in Islamic ideology.
Himmler: Islam is a practical and sympathetic religion for soldiers"; "Islam is very similar to our world view"

Hitler referring to Poles and Armenian Genocide: "Our strength is our quickness and our brutality. Genghis Khan had millions of women and children hunted down and killed, deliberately and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great founder of States. What the weak Western European civilization alleges about me, does not matter. I have given the order–and will have everyone shot who utters but one word of criticism–that the aim of {translator: this} war does not consist in reaching certain {translator: geographical} lines, but in the enemies’ physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death’s Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

LeBrok there is no assumption, just facts.

BTW during WW II Japanese weren’t much less skilled in death industry then Germans or Communists. Numbers speak for themselves.

Have you forgotten the extermination that went on during the crusade against the Cathars?
http://www.cathar.info/cathar_wars.htm
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Albigensian_Crusade

As many as one million people may have been killed.

How about the extermination of the Jews in France and Germany during the Middle Ages? Spearing babies, herding people into a synagogue and then setting it alight doesn't constitute cruel behavior to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_anti-Jewish_pogroms

They were so severe that the entire Jewish population was reduced to a couple of hundred people.

How about the atrocities committed by the Crusaders not only in the Near East but on Orthodox Christian Constantinople?
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture25b.html

First Crusade: "Meanwhile, the main body of the army was besieging the great city of Antioch which was finally conquered after seven months. Antioch became the second crusader state under Bohemond. The other crusaders then took Jerusalem by assault in July 1099, followed by the wholesale slaughter of Muslims and Jews, men, women, and children, an event recorded by FULCHER OF CHARTRES (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/fulcher.html). "

The Third Crusade also involved a lot of barbaric slaughter, and ironically, a lot of the Christians, who wore Middle Eastern garb, were among the Muslims and Jews who were killed.

Fourth Crusade: "In March 1204 the crusaders and Venetians agreed to seize the city a second time and to elect a Latin emperor. This siege ended in a second capture and a three-day sack of Constantinople."

Ironically, the biggest gains were made by the Emperor Frederick II without a single battle. " Emperor Frederick II (1194-1250) personally led the Sixth Crusade (1228-1229). No fighting was involved. Speaking Arabic and long familiar with the Muslims from his experience in Sicily, Frederick secured more for the Christians by negotiation than any crusader had secured by force since the First Crusade. In 1229 he signed a treaty with Saladin's nephew that restored Jerusalem to the Latin world. Bethlehem and Nazareth were also handed over and a ten year truce was signed."

Heck, if some people are correct, the "Indo-European" or Eastern Europeans, take your pick, exterminated most of the MN men living in central, northern and southern Europe.

I think you're starting the reckoning far too late in European history.

LeBrok
04-12-15, 04:13
you didn't like what matbir told, did you?

did you know about the Muslim conquest of India? I don't like his lack of objectivity. He believes in millions of children killed by Genghis Khan but he never mentiones millions killed by Europeans. Could you give me a reason for it, bicicleur?


I'm surprised you even didn't know about Dzjenghis Khan
he still is a hero in Mongolia, he has a big statute over there

try this for a starter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire
and don't miss the positive footnote in the end :
Environmental impact[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empir e&action=edit&section=8)]

According to a study by the Carnegie Institution for Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Institution_for_Science)'s Department of Global Energy, the destruction under Genghis Khan may have scrubbed as much as 700 million tonnes of carbon from the atmosphere by allowing forests to regrow on previously populated and cultivated land.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire#cite_note-22)[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire#cite_note-23)
Did you really read my quote? Give me the figure of millions children and women murdered by Genghis Khan from a serous paper, or keep quiet.









people visit Auschwitz yet they fail to understand what Muslim fundamentalism stands for What is a reason you wort it?!!! People can't visit Auschwitz because they don't understand Muslims? Precious.

LeBrok
04-12-15, 05:19
Have you forgotten the extermination that went on during the crusade against the Cathars?
http://www.cathar.info/cathar_wars.htm
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Albigensian_Crusade

As many as one million people may have been killed.

How about the extermination of the Jews in France and Germany during the Middle Ages? Spearing babies, herding people into a synagogue and then setting it alight doesn't constitute cruel behavior to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_anti-Jewish_pogroms

They were so severe that the entire Jewish population was reduced to a couple of hundred people.

How about the atrocities committed by the Crusaders not only in the Near East but on Orthodox Christian Constantinople?
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture25b.html

First Crusade: "Meanwhile, the main body of the army was besieging the great city of Antioch which was finally conquered after seven months. Antioch became the second crusader state under Bohemond. The other crusaders then took Jerusalem by assault in July 1099, followed by the wholesale slaughter of Muslims and Jews, men, women, and children, an event recorded by FULCHER OF CHARTRES (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/fulcher.html). "

The Third Crusade also involved a lot of barbaric slaughter, and ironically, a lot of the Christians, who wore Middle Eastern garb, were among the Muslims and Jews who were killed.

Fourth Crusade: "In March 1204 the crusaders and Venetians agreed to seize the city a second time and to elect a Latin emperor. This siege ended in a second capture and a three-day sack of Constantinople."

Ironically, the biggest gains were made by the Emperor Frederick II without a single battle. " Emperor Frederick II (1194-1250) personally led the Sixth Crusade (1228-1229). No fighting was involved. Speaking Arabic and long familiar with the Muslims from his experience in Sicily, Frederick secured more for the Christians by negotiation than any crusader had secured by force since the First Crusade. In 1229 he signed a treaty with Saladin's nephew that restored Jerusalem to the Latin world. Bethlehem and Nazareth were also handed over and a ten year truce was signed."

Heck, if some people are correct, the "Indo-European" or Eastern Europeans, take your pick, exterminated most of the MN men living in central, northern and southern Europe.

I think you're starting the reckoning far too late in European history.
Great points Angela.
We shouldn't forgotten the last crusade against pagans which happened Prussia, and other Baltic nations. Who knows how many were killed, slaughtered till all were enslaved.

Sile
04-12-15, 08:17
Great points Angela.
We should forgotten the last crusade against pagans which happened Prussia, and other Baltic nations. Who knows how many were killed, slaughtered till all were enslaved.

estimations where 320,000 west-balts ( old -prussians ) before the Teutonics arrived ............and when the war finished 60 years later ..........the prussians lost 60% of their people.

Note: they (balts ) where fighting Poles before the teutons.......but Poles kept losing, that why the Poles asked the church for help ..............in come the teutonics ( saxons and thuringians)

bicicleur
04-12-15, 09:43
Have you forgotten the extermination that went on during the crusade against the Cathars?
http://www.cathar.info/cathar_wars.htm
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Albigensian_Crusade

As many as one million people may have been killed.

How about the extermination of the Jews in France and Germany during the Middle Ages? Spearing babies, herding people into a synagogue and then setting it alight doesn't constitute cruel behavior to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Medieval_anti-Jewish_pogroms

They were so severe that the entire Jewish population was reduced to a couple of hundred people.

How about the atrocities committed by the Crusaders not only in the Near East but on Orthodox Christian Constantinople?
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture25b.html

First Crusade: "Meanwhile, the main body of the army was besieging the great city of Antioch which was finally conquered after seven months. Antioch became the second crusader state under Bohemond. The other crusaders then took Jerusalem by assault in July 1099, followed by the wholesale slaughter of Muslims and Jews, men, women, and children, an event recorded by FULCHER OF CHARTRES (http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/fulcher.html). "

The Third Crusade also involved a lot of barbaric slaughter, and ironically, a lot of the Christians, who wore Middle Eastern garb, were among the Muslims and Jews who were killed.

Fourth Crusade: "In March 1204 the crusaders and Venetians agreed to seize the city a second time and to elect a Latin emperor. This siege ended in a second capture and a three-day sack of Constantinople."

Ironically, the biggest gains were made by the Emperor Frederick II without a single battle. " Emperor Frederick II (1194-1250) personally led the Sixth Crusade (1228-1229). No fighting was involved. Speaking Arabic and long familiar with the Muslims from his experience in Sicily, Frederick secured more for the Christians by negotiation than any crusader had secured by force since the First Crusade. In 1229 he signed a treaty with Saladin's nephew that restored Jerusalem to the Latin world. Bethlehem and Nazareth were also handed over and a ten year truce was signed."

Heck, if some people are correct, the "Indo-European" or Eastern Europeans, take your pick, exterminated most of the MN men living in central, northern and southern Europe.

I think you're starting the reckoning far too late in European history.

we know about all of this because Europe has one of the best documented histories in the world
but do you think in other parts of the world there was less violence ?
the few things we know don't suggest that

what concerns me more is the violence and the hatred that exists today

kyrani99
04-12-15, 13:14
Wait a minute, you are not being objective and consequential at all. Both of these examples come form the same source, and yet you believe only one is true?!!!


I pretty much agree with this. The "Evil" is in us, and religion is used to legitimize bad actions. To have god(s) backing you, gives an ultimate authority, even if you do "evil".

It is possible to see somethings in a document are supported while others are not. I don't see how I am not being objective.
In the case of evil is in us, I disagree. There are good and there are evil. There is not one nature in all.

kyrani99
04-12-15, 13:17
what concerns me more is the violence and the hatred that exists today

This is exactly the point, not only for the bombing in Paris but as you say the hatred that exists today in the world. The problem is identifying who is involved. Who are the haters? Their handiwork is often obvious as in this bombing but in the great bulk of the problem their handiwork is hidden. Disease is the damage taken and it points to perpetrators of violence right inside every community, even at the grass roots level.. in the family.

Tomenable
04-12-15, 16:16
estimations where 320,000 west-balts ( old -prussians ) before the Teutonics arrived ............and when the war finished 60 years later ..........the prussians lost 60% of their people.
Note: they (balts ) where fighting Poles before the teutons.......but Poles kept losing, that why the Poles asked the church for help ..............in come the teutonics ( saxons and thuringians)

^ That is not 100% true.

At that time (1200s) Poland was politically divided between competing realms of several dukes of the Piast dynasty, and various Polish duchies were more busy fighting against each other than against Prussians. They were not interested in conquering Pagan Prussians, those were Pagans who were organizing plundering raids against borderland areas (especially in Northern Mazovia).

The Teutonic Order and other crusaders were called to protect the borderland, but they went on to invade the Baltic Pagans.

The one who asked for help - Conrad - was just the duke of Mazovia (north-eastern Poland), not of entire Poland.

It can be noted, that in the 1300s the Teutonic Order also turned against fellow Christians - Poles. Pope Clement V wrote about that in 1310-1317, condemning Teutonic Order's atrocities against Christian Poland, and seized East Pomerania from Poland:

Latin original: "Novissime vero ad nostrum pervenit auditum, quod dicti praeceptores et fratres hospitalis eiusdem dilecti filii nobilis viri Wladislai Cracovie et Sandomirie ducis terram hostiliter subintrantes in civitate Gdansco ultra decem milia hominum gladio peremerunt infantibus vagientibus in cunis mortis exitum inferentes, quibus etiam hostis fidei pepercisset."

(in English: "It has recently come to our attention that the said preceptors and brothers of the same hospital [Order], stealing into the land of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Vladislav of Cracow and Sandomir, in a hostile manner, killed more than 10,000 people in the city of Gdansk by the sword, inflicting death upon infants crying in their cradles, whom even the enemies of the faith would have spared.")

So according to Pope Clement V, the Teutonic Order was even worse than Pagans in their atrocities against fellow Christians.

And the second excerpt by Pope Clement V is from Lites I (3), 69 (Papal bull):

Latin original: "Gravem dilecti nobilis viri Wladislai ducis Polonie querelam accepimus, continentem, quod magister et fratres domus s. Marie Theutonicorum non attendentes, quod quondam Conradus dux Polonie avus eiusdem ducis eosdem magistrum et fratres, quos veros credebat katholice fidei defensores, ad partes illas pro defensione ipsius fidei primitus advocavit et nonnula inmobilia et mobilia bona liberaliter concessit eisdem, alias eos dictus Conradus et successors sui benigne ac favorabiliter prosequendo; sed ipsi dicto duci se reddentes ingratos et ad bona ipsius rapacitatis manus extendentes, illicite ducem ipsum terra sua Pomoranie Wladislauiensis dyocesis, que de regno Polonie fore dinoscitur temeritate propria spoliantes, illam cum hominibus, vasallis, castris, villis, possessionibus et bonis existentibus in eadem contra iusticiam occuparunt et detinuerunt iam per octo annos et amplius sicut adhuc detinent violenter, fructus ac redditus et proventus provenientes ex illa percipientes indebite et iniuste, illam sibi reddere contradicunt in ipsius ducis grave dispendium et regni predicti diminucionem enormem et scandalum manifestum."

(in English: "We accepted the serious complaint of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Vladislav of Poland, the master and brothers of the Teutonic Order not being present, maintaining that the late Duke Conrad of Poland, grandfather of the same duke, first called the master and brothers, whom he believed true defenders of the Catholic faith, and he freely conceded to them some movable and immovable goods, and the said Conrad and his successors with benign favour followed these up with others. But, showing no gratitude to the said duke and extending the hands of rapacity towards his goods, they [the Teutonic Knights] boldly and illicitily robbed that duke of his own land of Pomerania, of the diocese of Włocławek, which it is known should belong to the kingdom of Poland, along with the men, vassals, castles, villages, possessions, and goods in it, now occupying and detaining it against justice for eight years and more still violently detaining its fruits and revenues and produce wtihout right and unjustly, they refuse to return it to him at great cost to the duke himself and immense damage to the aforesaid kingdom and in manifest scandal.")

So as you can see the German Order / Teutonic Order were not "defenders of Christianity", but rather "greedy aggressors".

Angela
04-12-15, 16:18
we know about all of this because Europe has one of the best documented histories in the world
but do you think in other parts of the world there was less violence ?
the few things we know don't suggest that

what concerns me more is the violence and the hatred that exists today

Bicicleur, I never said, nor said anything from which anyone could infer that there was less violence in other parts of the world. Violence is endemic wherever human beings are gathered. I was responding to a statement that Europeans only started committing acts of mass violence, or even mass extermination, very late in their history. That statement was in absolute contravention of history.

The violence and the hatred that exists today is also my concern, believe me. We now have had a mass shooting in California where a man and his wife, radicalized Muslims, who had ties with some low level Syrian terrorist groups, and had recently traveled to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, went into a Christmas party hosted by the man's employers and killed 14 people and wounded 17. If police units hadn't been training nearby and gotten there within three minutes, who knows how many might have been killed.

Their garage was full of thousands of rounds of ammunition, pipe bombs, other explosive devices etc. Yet, some in our media, MSNBC, The Times, even CNN, and our President, keep saying it might have been "work place violence" by a disgruntled employee who had a fight with someone at the party, left, and proceeded to come back and try to kill everyone.

Right, he and his wife collected all of that in an hour, and his wife was willing to go on this rampage with him and leave behind a six month old child because he was fighting with his employees. It is beyond me. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If you don't call something what it is, you can't fight it.

Yahoo News is at least giving it straight.
http://news.yahoo.com/san-bernardino-mass-shooting-investigation--fbi-probes-possible-terror-ties-215937533.html#

bicicleur
04-12-15, 16:37
Bicicleur, I never said, nor said anything from which anyone could infer that there was less violence in other parts of the world. Violence is endemic wherever human beings are gathered. I was responding to a statement that Europeans only started committing acts of mass violence, or even mass extermination, very late in their history. That statement was in absolute contravention of history.

The violence and the hatred that exists today is also my concern, believe me. We now have had a mass shooting in California where a man and his wife, radicalized Muslims, who had ties with some low level Syrian terrorist groups, and had recently traveled to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, went into a Christmas party hosted by the man's employers and killed 14 people and wounded 17. If police units hadn't been training nearby and gotten there within three minutes, who knows how many might have been killed.

Their garage was full of thousands of rounds of ammunition, pipe bombs, other explosive devices etc. Yet, some in our media, MSNBC, The Times, even CNN, and our President, keep saying it might have been "work place violence" by a disgruntled employee who had a fight with someone at the party, left, and proceeded to come back and try to kill everyone.

Right, he and his wife collected all of that in an hour, and his wife was willing to go on this rampage with him and leave behind a six month old child because he was fighting with his employees. It is beyond me. If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If you don't call something what it is, you can't fight it.

Yahoo News is at least giving it straight.
http://news.yahoo.com/san-bernardino-mass-shooting-investigation--fbi-probes-possible-terror-ties-215937533.html#

these details have been seeping through here in Europe too, yet in the afternoon news today we see Obama not mentioning any detail, it seems to be 'just a tragic accident'

if these people don't want to call things by its name, I expect a lot more dammage will be done and the cancer will grow till maybe it will be to late

Tomenable
04-12-15, 17:05
Violence is endemic wherever human beings are gathered.Some papers about this:

The society of our “out of Africa” ancestors (I)
The migrant warriors that colonized the world:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104569/


The “out of Africa” hypothesis proposes that a small group of Homo sapiens left Africa 80,000 years ago, spreading the mitochondrial haplotype L3 throughout the Earth.1–10 Little effort has been made to try to reconstruct the society and culture of the tribe that left Africa to populate the rest of the world.1 Here, I find that hunter-gatherers that belong to mitochondrial haplotypes L0, L1 and L2 do not have a culture of ritualized fights. In contrast to this, almost all L3 derived hunter-gatherers have a more belligerent culture that includes ritualized fights such as wrestling, stick fights or headhunting expeditions. This appears to be independent of their environment because ritualized fights occur in all climates, from the tropics to the arctic. There is also a correlation between mitochondrial haplotypes and warfare propensity or the use of murder and suicide to resolve conflicts. The data implicate that the original human population outside Africa is descended from only two closely related sub-branches that practiced ritual fighting and had a higher propensity towards warfare and the use of murder for conflict resolution. This warfare culture may have given the out of Africa migrants a competitive advantage to colonize the world. But it could also have crucially influenced the subsequent history of The Earth. In the future, it would be interesting to see how we could further reconstruct the society and culture of the “Out of Africa Tribe.”

The “Out of Africa Tribe” (II):
Paleolithic warriors with big canoes and protective weapons:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656025/

Culture Out of Africa:

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm

Max Hartshorn et al. 2013, Evolutionary Dominance of Ethnocentric Cooperation:

http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html

As well as:

http://www.livescience.com/8189-individuals-rare-disorder-racial-biases.html

And there is also such a book:

Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

Tomenable
06-12-15, 04:20
Suppression of free speech in London:

http://www.londonstudent.coop/death-threats-goldsmiths-speaker-maryam-namazie/

What has become of Universities in the West:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/12030100/A-refusal-to-think-freely-is-making-universities-increasingly-irrelevant.html


A refusal to think freely is making universities increasingly irrelevant
The vast majority of academics are of the Left – and their research often disappears without trace
By Allister Heath 8:56 PM GMT 02 Dec 2015 Comments 136 Comments

There was a time, not that long ago, when universities embodied the best of Western civilisation. Having broken away from their narrowly theological and often obscurantist past, they thrived during much of the 20th century, dedicating themselves to research, debate and learning. They were, at their best, cosmopolitan in outlook before the rest of society, beacons of genuine diversity and home to the greatest of thinkers.

But with a few brilliant and wonderful exceptions, they are now slowly drifting back to their pre-19th century role as a purveyor of a single, illiberal world view. Instead of opening the minds of young people by exposing them to every kind of idea and every sort of controversy, they are losing their nerve, pandering to destructive activists who would rather they serve up a thin, tightly controlled and unchallenging intellectual gruel. Rather than pushing the boundaries of human knowledge, most universities now churn out dreary, predictable research that nobody reads.

"There was a time when universities set the political agenda; today, too many appear to be mere angry onlookers, giant Left-wing content factories with little practical relevance"

The real crisis is in the humanities and the social sciences; there is still much great work carried out in science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine, of course, with plenty of British university departments continuing to distinguish themselves. Yet the overall mood across UK and American universities has become more authoritarian and less rational. Non-scientific areas of research have gone shockingly stale.

Derek Bok’s Higher Education in America, which is making waves, contains many staggering revelations which apply just as much to British institutions. No fewer than 98 per cent of academic papers in the arts and humanities are never cited in any subsequent research. The same is true of three quarters of social science research: the papers must be statistically dubious, trapped in flawed paradigms or obsessed with irrelevant minutia. There are now at least 100,000 academic journals worldwide – “publish or perish” has been pushed well past breaking point. It is a horrendous waste of so many intelligent people’s time and so many students’ money.

Here another paper about this issue:

http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/14/bbs-paper-on-lack-of-political-diversity/


It’s finally out–The big review paper on the lack of political diversity in social psychology
by Jonathan Haidt | Sep 14, 2015 |

HeterodoxAcademy has its origins in a collaborative effort by five social psychologists (Jose Duarte, Jarret Crawford, Lee Jussim, Phil Tetlock and me) and a sociologist (Charlotta Stern) to study a problem that has long been noted in psychology: nearly everyone in the field is on the left, politically. We have been working together since 2011 to write a paper explaining how this situation came about, how it reduces the quality of science published in social psychology, and what can be done to improve the science. (Note that none of us self-identifies as conservative). In the process we discovered the work of the other scholars in other fields who joined with us to create this site. (...)

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9945982&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0140525X14000430


Psychologists have demonstrated the value of diversity – particularly diversity of viewpoints – for enhancing creativity, discovery, and problem solving. But one key type of viewpoint diversity is lacking in academic psychology in general and social psychology in particular: political diversity. This article reviews the available evidence and finds support for four claims: (1) Academic psychology once had considerable political diversity, but has lost nearly all of it in the last 50 years. (2) This lack of political diversity can undermine the validity of social psychological science via mechanisms such as the embedding of liberal values into research questions and methods, steering researchers away from important but politically unpalatable research topics, and producing conclusions that mischaracterize liberals and conservatives alike. (3) Increased political diversity would improve social psychological science by reducing the impact of bias mechanisms such as confirmation bias, and by empowering dissenting minorities to improve the quality of the majority's thinking. (4) The underrepresentation of non-liberals in social psychology is most likely due to a combination of self-selection, hostile climate, and discrimination. We close with recommendations for increasing political diversity in social psychology.

1. Introduction

In the last few years, social psychology has faced a series of challenges to the validity of its research, including a few high-profile replication failures, a handful of fraud cases, and several articles on questionable research practices and inflated effect sizes… In this article, we suggest that one largely overlooked cause of failure is a lack of political diversity. We review evidence suggesting that political diversity and dissent would improve the reliability and validity of social psychological science…

We focus on conservatives as an underrepresented group because the data on the prevalence in psychology of different ideological groups is best for the liberal-conservative contrast – and the departure from the proportion of liberals and conservatives in the U.S. population is so dramatic. However, we argue that the field needs more non-liberals however they specifically self-identify (e.g., libertarian, moderate)…

The lack of political diversity is not a threat to the validity of specific studies in many and perhaps most areas of research in social psychology. The lack of diversity causes problems for the scientific process primarily in areas related to the political concerns of the Left – areas such as race, gender, stereotyping, environmentalism, power, and inequality – as well as in areas where conservatives themselves are studied, such as in moral and political psychology.

2. Psychology is less politically diverse than ever

[In this section we review all available information on the political party identification of psychologists, as well as their liberal-conservative self descriptions. The graph below says it all. Whichever of those two measures you use, you find a big change after 1990. Before the 1990s, academic psychology only LEANED left. Liberals and Democrats outnumbered Conservatives and Republican by 4 to 1 or less. But as the “greatest generation” retired in the 1990s and was replaced by baby boomers, the ratio skyrocketed to something more like 12 to 1. In just 20 years. Few psychologists realize just how quickly or completely the field has become a political monoculture. This graph took us by surprise too.] (...)

Of course the word "liberals" is misused in these excerpts above - in reality they are talking about non-liberal leftists.

kyrani99
08-12-15, 17:01
regarding these two points in your articles
1. The real crisis is in the humanities and the social sciences; there is still much great work carried out in science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine,
2. But as the “greatest generation” retired in the 1990s and was replaced by baby boomers,
.

I don't know about the humanities because I am a scientist but I can say that there is good work and there is bad work in science. There are lots of papers that are not worth the paper they are written on and there are others that are very good.

What happened in the 1970s and more so in the 1980s in Australia at least, was that big cooperation were quite literally wanting to "buy the departments.. scientists and all". In the school of computing science they wanted to provide funding and in exchange to erect a big sign on the top of the building advertising, it was IBM if I remember correctly. The school refused but maybe succumbed later. I would say industry and the demands of big business has been the major influence and too many academics just want to get published so they do what is wanted of them.

I am of the baby boomer generation and I left the university to work elsewhere in 1989. There were plenty of baby boomer generation at the university and they were not all left. I would have said most were middle of the road.

Yetos
06-04-16, 20:29
What about building a fence on Greek land boarder up North? It would keep all the refugees in Greece till they are processed.

what are you talking about?

refuggee escape Jihadists, enter Greece, and went to Albania? to do what?
if refuggees want it to, surely they would have gone already, but since they don't, i do not know.