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bicicleur
23-11-15, 11:59
three tribes of J survived LGM : J1, J2a and J2b
these tribes have now been identified with the Eastern Epigravettian in Georgia
a J HG has been found in Karelia, he had probably joined R1 in their journey north along the big rivers of eastern Europe

according to YFull both J1 and J2a started to expand 18 ka, J2b 16 ka

if they were not the Natufians, how could they expand that early, even before the domestication of the goat (14-13 ka) or cattle (10 ka)?

were they the ones who were trading obsidian with the Natufians 16 ka?

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/ObsidianRoutes.php

Epigravettians came to Lake Sevan in summertime to hunt and collect obsidian since 17 ka.

http://www.digitorient.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Montoya-et-al.-2013-JHE-in-press.pdf

Were the same people collecting the obsidian from Cappadocia and Bingöl?

The most important obsidian source in Cappadocia was Mt Hassan.
10.2 ka Acikli Hoyuk was founded in the foothills of Mt Hassan.
There were many obsidian collectors around Mt Hassan and they needed to be fed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%9F%C4%B1kl%C4%B1_H%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

Acikli Hoyuk was the predecessor of Catal Hoyuk and numerous other settlements in Central Anatolia.
Does this represent the further expansion of haplo J?

Twilight
23-11-15, 18:12
Too early to tell. I'm curious to see what place has the highest J1 and j2 diversity; either levant or Georgia.

LeBrok
23-11-15, 18:49
Do we have finds of Caucasian obsidian in far away places?

bicicleur
23-11-15, 19:24
Do we have finds of Caucasian obsidian in far away places?

http://www.iatp.am/news/dijest/dijest4/chataigner_obsidian.pdf

there were a lot of obsidian sources in Transcaucasia and eastern Anatolia which were used more locally (within a few days walking distance, maybe between summer and winter hunting grounds)
but I guess Cappadocia and Bingöl were better fit for export as they were closer to 'the market' which was the Levant, the Middle Euphrates and the Central Zagros or maybe some hostile tribes in eastern Anatolia stood in the way for trade

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/Slide1.jpg

according to Bar Yosef this was the trade route during epipaleolithic and early neolithic :

http://www.archatlas.org/OriginsFarming/Colledge/Slide30.jpg

http://www.archatlas.org/OriginsFarming/Colledge/Slide39.jpg
and this is a map near Mt Hassan when Asikli Hoyuk was founded :

http://www.archatlas.org/OriginsFarming/Colledge/Slide32.jpg
Sultansazligi in the east was a camp, some kind of checkpoint which controlled access to the Mt Hassan area


this is Mt Hassan, an extinct volcano :

http://www.archatlas.org/OriginsFarming/Colledge/Slide31.jpg

this is the valley where Asikli Hoyuk was founded, in the volcanic tuff :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Ihlara-Est_(7).jpg/576px-Ihlara-Est_(7).jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a9Da8PwGZ-M/VZKN-5z0uUI/AAAAAAAAKjA/FAI1Y0GEIgo/s1600/DSC06925_.JPG

I visited Konya and Cappadocia once - a magical place

Alan
23-11-15, 23:26
Too early to tell. I'm curious to see what place has the highest J1 and j2 diversity; either levant or Georgia.

The region between the Zagros and Taurus mountains, specifically the Zagros mountains as far as I know.

Twilight
24-11-15, 00:38
The region between the Zagros and Taurus mountains, specifically the Zagros mountains.
I suppose to find out wether HG J is really the real people, we should probably concentrate our DNA testing on the Prehistoric Zagros Mountains remains.

bicicleur
24-11-15, 01:49
I suppose to find out wether HG J is really the real people, we should probably concentrate our DNA testing on the Prehistoric Zagros Mountains remains.

The J found in Georgia were Eastern Epigravettian, that is why I don't expect J in the Zagros Mountains. In the Zagros Mountains the HG were Zarzian. My guess would be T or L.