What is PIE - language or culture - clarification urgently needed

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I think the confusion is because many users here are from the USA, and they all speak English, but declare different "cultures" (for example - French, African, German, Italian, even "American"), so it's hard for them to grasp the importance of language in PIE studies. In the USA you can be Italian and speak English. But in case of PIEs it was different than with Americans - there could not be Proto-Indo-Europeans who did not speak PIE. Of essential importance for PIE origins is PIE language.

If some people spoke PIE language but - for instance - did not burry their dead in kurgans, they were PIE.

And if some people spoke Turkic language, but did burry their dead in kurgans, they were not PIE, but Turkic.

So language is more important for the issue of PIE origins, than is material culture.

And while Proto-Indo-European language contained words which indicated common culture (for example the word for wheel - which indicated that they had wheeled vehicles), this does not tell us anything about the beginning of PIE language, only about the end of it.

Because all IE languages have words for wheels which are cognates (derived from a common PIE root), it means that Proto-Indo-Europeans had wheels before they split into different groups and before their languages became differentiated into different IE languages.

What it does not mean, however, is that PIE was spoken only after PIEs acquired wheels.

It could be spoken also waaaay before the acquisition of wheels by that community. The so called "Wheel Line", dated to 3500 BC, only means that Late Proto-Indo-European was still a single language in year 3500 BC, but it does not tell us anything about when it originated (for example, it could had originated in 6000 BC, and then continued to be a single language for 2500 years, starting to split into what later became various Indo-European linguistic families and languages only after 3500 BC):

wheel.png


The "PIE cultural package" as defined by some users here, emerged during the existence of PIE speakers.

It did not initiate their existence.
 
If some people spoke PIE language but - for instance - did not burry their dead in kurgans, they were PIE.
We don't know if there were such people.


So language is more important for the issue of PIE origins, than is material culture.
I'm not sure. For some people genetics can me more important than language.
I would say, all Yamnaya folks spoke IE language and all Yamnaya folks had same customs, rode horses and had same material culture.

And if some people spoke Turkic language, but did burry their dead in kurgans, they were not PIE, but Turkic.
There are instances were language could be a dominant factor.

I'm not sure if I can call myself IE, or any modern inhabitant of the world is IE. I can easily say that part of my genetics and some culture (language included) comes from IEs.

These are the dilemmas of nomenclature in ever changing environment.
 
It could be spoken also waaaay before the acquisition of wheels by that community. The so called "Wheel Line", dated to 3500 BC, only means that Late Proto-Indo-European was still a single language in year 3500 BC, but it does not tell us anything about when it originated (for example, it could had originated in 6000 BC, and then continued to be a single language for 2500 years, starting to split into what later became various Indo-European linguistic families and languages only after 3500 BC):

wheel.png


The "PIE cultural package" as defined by some users here, emerged during the existence of PIE speakers.

It did not initiate their existence.

At least someone get it! - after couple of infractions for that (y)

I can add:

R1 = Indoeuropeans, especially, that they were patrylinear, so this rule rules.
R1-M173 tribe was developing this language which is called indoeuropean...
If some one was banned, and go to patagonia - he is still R1, so he is still IE.
If someone came as a slave to IE-country - he is still not R1, so he is not IE.
This two examples are tiny minority exeptions, because majority R1 always
was in one place and was speaking one language. And even, if they in this
so far past change their language - it does not change that they where who
they where - but no one can ever know this. Exept of language, R1 people
invent some culture(s) and after that they spread across the globe.

Indoeuropeans are only R1 people. Thier language is called indoeuropean,
becasue this is language by which their are comunicating with each other.
Aso, aso...

p.s. on that time line, there could be even earlier some lines with dialects,
but they where all dead after spreading the last stage wheel-language, all
but exept maybe one - lusitanian, which could be from this V-88 guys.
 
LeBrok said:
I'm not sure. For some people genetics can me more important than language.

In pre-modern times there was a strong correlation between language and genetics because 95% of the time children learned to speak the same language as their parents spoke, and that process repeated itself in each generation. I'm talking about times before public education, when children did not learn languages in school from teachers, as there were no schools and no teachers.

In 95% of instances children inherited genes from their parents, and also learned to speak the language of their parents. The remaining 5% of instances can be considered cases of linguistic assimilation of individuals or entire groups collectively.

bicicleur said:
how about the wheel vocabulary in Anatolian language?

Does their wheel vocabulary have different origin than wheel vocabulary in other IE languages ???

Well, then maybe Proto-Anatolian branch split from the rest of PIE before PIE acquired wheels? If I recall correctly, it is usually considered that Proto-Anatolian was the first branch of IE that split from the rest (followed by Proto-Tocharian, IIRC).
 

Does their wheel vocabulary have different origin than wheel vocabulary in other IE languages ???

Well, then maybe Proto-Anatolian branch split from the rest of PIE before PIE acquired wheels? If I recall correctly, it is usually considered that Proto-Anatolian was the first branch of IE that split from the rest (followed by Proto-Tocharian, IIRC).

it was my question and it is yours
 


In pre-modern times there was a strong correlation between language and genetics because 95% of the time children learned to speak the same language as their parents spoke, and that process repeated itself in each generation. I'm talking about times before public education, when children did not learn languages in school from teachers, as there were no schools and no teachers.

In 95% of instances children inherited genes from their parents, and also learned to speak the language of their parents. The remaining 5% of instances can be considered cases of linguistic assimilation of individuals or entire groups collectively.
I think it might have been the case in creation of IE culture in Yamnaya. From all the separate ethnic groups they mixed into one race, language and culture. That's why we can talk about IE cultural package, not just the language. This is in light of scientific developments of last 100 years. Before that only connection for IEs existed by language family. Just because they didn't know what we know now.

Now we are in position to expand meaning of IE to their whole culture.

I have my doubts about one well mix race of Yamnaya. Their territory was so vast that it would be hard for them to mix uniformly. I'm sure West Yamnaya will turn to be genetically distinct from East Yamnaya. Otherwise we wouldn't have strongly defined groups as per R1a and R1b subclades.

Perhaps we can only talk about IE horizon, as Yamnaya horizon, and never about exactly one monolith group?


If 10k years in the future someone would discover that I wrote in English, he would proclaim me English as per my spoken language. I would be much happier if he/she proclaimed me European as per my cultural heritage and place of origin. I guess in 1000 yeas when everyone in Europe speaks English it won't matter anymore. Or will it?
 
I have my doubts about one well mix race of Yamnaya. Their territory was so vast that it would be hard for them to mix uniformly. I'm sure West Yamnaya will turn to be genetically distinct from East Yamnaya. Otherwise we wouldn't have strongly defined groups as per R1a and R1b subclades.

Y chromosome is one chromosome, while autosomal DNA is much more important in defining "races".

There are a lot of African-Americans with R1b-L51 (see: plantation rapes) who are autosomally over 90% Sub-Saharan West African and maybe up to 10% European, so you wouldn't classify them as "European race" or anything like this.

LeBrok said:
I guess in 1000 yeas when everyone in Europe speaks English it won't matter anymore.

Well, 2000 years ago most of the population of Europe spoke Latin, and now only few people know Latin.

What makes you so sure that in 1000 years we will still be speaking English, and not something else ??? I have no doubt that if you asked any Roman patriot in year 200 AD what language will Europe speak in 1200 AD, he would answer that Latin.

In 300 BC most of Western Europe spoke Celtic (except for coastal Greek etc. colonies), and now Celtic is almost extinct.
 


Y chromosome is one chromosome, while autosomal DNA is much more important in defining "races".

There are a lot of African-Americans with R1b-L51 (see: plantation rapes) who are autosomally over 90% Sub-Saharan West African and maybe up to 10% European, so you wouldn't classify them as "European race" or anything like this.

I didn't mean it like this. You see by Y haplogroups you can learn who met who. Conversely by lack of Y DNA we can conclude that the carriers of these chromosomes didn't meet. R1b came without R1a to Western Europe. It could mean that there was part of Yamnaya (heritage of Italo-Celtic tribes) which didn't have mixed R1b and R1a. Also IE R1a Z283 didn't mix with Z93, though they are both IE.


Well, 2000 years ago most of the population of Europe spoke Latin, and now only few people know Latin.
Even people from Rome don't speak Latin, but what does that mean?

What makes you so sure that in 1000 years we will still be speaking English, and not something else ???
Not sure, but it is a trend today. If not the collapse of Roman Empire we would speak Latin and maybe the whole world now.
More and more people communicate for work, pleasure, science in English in modern world. As long as our world doesn't collapse into Dark Ages, like Roman empire did, english will stay dominant. At the moment English has a critical mass to be the dominant one, and easy to learn. Furthermore, there are no serious attempts to dethrone it, and fewer with time.
 
A list of dominant Eurasian (and Eurasian offshoot) civilizations according to A. Van Sloan and James Sheehan:

Time of domination (number of years) - civilization:

4300-2700 BC (1600) - Sumerians
2700-1075 BC (1625) - Egyptians
1075-745 BC (330) - Phoenicians
745-612 BC (133) - Assyrians
612-539 BC (73) - Babylonians
539-478 BC (61) - Persians
478-323 BC (155) - Greeks
323-197 BC (126) - Hellenistic
197 BC - 378 AD (575) - Romans
378-467 AD (85) - Gupta India
467-589 AD (122) - Byzantines
589-756 AD (167) - Tang China
756-976 AD (236) - Muslims
976-1071 AD (126) - Byzantines
1071-1294 AD (223) - Song China and Mongol China
1294-1527 AD (233) - Renaissance Italy
1527-1588 AD (61) - Spain
1588-1609 AD (21) - England
1609-1672 AD (63) - Netherlands
1672-1814 AD (142) - France
1814-1830 AD (16) - Austria
1830-1918 AD (88) - Great Britain
1918-2015 AD (97+) - the USA

After the fall of Rome, no civilization managed to be dominant / most advanced for more than ca. 250 years.

The longest unbroken period of dominance enjoyed by a single civilization was by Egypt in 2700 BC - 1075 BC.

LeBrok said:
Not sure, but it is a trend today.

There are more Chinese speakers than English speakers in the world, and China's economy is growing fast.
 
R1b came without R1a to Western Europe.
There is at least one-digit percent of R1a in every corner of Western Europe and R1a-CTS4385 subclade is specific to that area.

It could mean that there was part of Yamnaya (heritage of Italo-Celtic tribes) which didn't have mixed R1b and R1a.

But we have no proof that Italo-Celtic tribes are descended from Yamnaya because there was no R1b-P312 found in Yamnaya.

Also IE R1a Z283 didn't mix with Z93, though they are both IE.

Yes indeed, and R1b-L51 didn't mix with R1b-Z2103 - in Yamnaya we found only the latter, but not the former. No P312 and U106.

By the way - I think this is because PIEs were mostly divided into clans (each clan sharing a common male ancestor), and those clans migrated in different directions. That's why different lineages were spreading PIE language in different directions.
 
There are a lot of African-Americans with R1b-L51 (see: plantation rapes)


This is a myth.
1. Slaves were offten concubines - in such cases
there was no need to raping over and over agian.
2. After manummission during last 150 years were
a lot of formal & unformal unions between whites
and blacks - especially white men + black women.

Roman patriot in year 200 AD what language will Europe speak in 1200 AD, he would answer that Latin.

And he would be right, because all Europe was speaking on latin
at that time as an international, religious and culture language:)

About english? He will be replaced by arabic during next 100 years
smile.gif
 
LeBrok said:
As long as our world doesn't collapse into Dark Ages, like Roman empire did, english will stay dominant.

And what makes you think, that it won't collapse into Dark Ages?

We (= people of native European descent) have low birth rates, and "barbarians" are already immigrating. These "barbarians" will eventually create a new wolrd, maybe even better than ours, but "Dark Ages" between the two eras are inevitable.

The so-called "Western Civilization" is already past its Golden Age.

Rethel said:
About english? He will be replaced by arabic during next 100 years :)
Quite possible (or MAYBE Arabs will adopt English just like Germanic barbarians learned Romance languages).
 
There is at least one-digit percent of R1a in every corner of Western Europe and R1a-CTS4385 subclade is specific to that area.


Almost everywhere where is R1b is a majority- R1a is a minotity.
And almost everywhere where R1a is majority R1b is in minority.
In some areas is even ~50:50. So, they always were together.


By the way - I think this is because PIEs were mostly divided into clans (each clan sharing a common male ancestor), and those clans migrated in different directions. That's why different lineages were spreading PIE language in different directions.

Right. And the same was at the beginning.:)
 
A list of dominant Eurasian (and Eurasian offshoot) civilizations according to A. Van Sloan and James Sheehan:

Time of domination (number of years) - civilization:

4300-2700 BC (1600) - Sumerians
2700-1075 BC (1625) - Egyptians
1075-745 BC (330) - Phoenicians
745-612 BC (133) - Assyrians
612-539 BC (73) - Babylonians
539-478 BC (61) - Persians
478-323 BC (155) - Greeks
323-197 BC (126) - Hellenistic
197 BC - 378 AD (575) - Romans
378-467 AD (85) - Gupta India
467-589 AD (122) - Byzantines
589-756 AD (167) - Tang China
756-976 AD (236) - Muslims
976-1071 AD (126) - Byzantines
1071-1294 AD (223) - Song China and Mongol China
1294-1527 AD (233) - Renaissance Italy
1527-1588 AD (61) - Spain
1588-1609 AD (21) - England
1609-1672 AD (63) - Netherlands
1672-1814 AD (142) - France
1814-1830 AD (16) - Austria
1830-1918 AD (88) - Great Britain
1918-2015 AD (97+) - the USA

After the fall of Rome, no civilization managed to be dominant / most advanced for more than ca. 250 years.

The longest unbroken period of dominance enjoyed by a single civilization was by Egypt in 2700 BC - 1075 BC.
There will be no one dominant country in the future. The world will be all developed and run under Unions, or perhaps one global Union. Look around, there are no true empires anymore. The world changed, and we can't look into history to foresee our future.
There have been profound paradigm shift. You don't need to conquer others and enslave populations to live good life. You just need to grow your economy. Everyone is educated. We look into science to invent and understand world. We live in world of plenty with full belly every day.
Who wants to go and conquer, possibly die, to take stuff from others, if you already have job, family, kids, car, house, vacations, games, food from every corner of the world, etc, and you can enjoy all of it till you are 80. Well, not everybody has this yet, but it is coming to every human being soon. Thanks to advances in science and robotics.



There are more Chinese speakers than English speakers in the world, and China's economy is growing fast.
[/QUOTE]
There will be more Indians soon than Chinese, they are growing fast too and half of them speaks English. Even to communicate between ethnic groups in India.
Anyway regardless if it is english or chinese, there will be one dominant language in the future, just because it is easy for all humans to communicate, work, travel, enjoy movies and music, etc.
 
LeBrok said:
u don't need to conquer others and enslave populations to live good life.

If only "modern barbarians" such as ISIS fighters and their supporters (and many others!), understood this!
:LOL: :grin:

Germanics entered the Western Roman Empire also as "poor refugees", and later destroyed it from within by causing internal turmoil:




 


Almost everywhere where is R1b is a majority- R1a is a minotity.
And almost everywhere where R1a is majority R1b is in minority.
In some areas is even ~50:50. So, they always were together.
Genius! Did you notice it by yourself?



I think this is because PIEs were mostly divided into clans (each clan sharing a common male ancestor), and those clans migrated in different directions. That's why different lineages were spreading PIE language in different directions.
Now, if you could present a mechanism by which all these unmixed clans learned the same language, please?
 
These "barbarians" will eventually create a new wolrd, maybe even better than ours,


Comparing to this brave current world - certainly you are right.
Islamic civilisation is more superior than rainbow civilization.

Quite possible (or MAYBE Arabs will adopt English just like Germanic barbarians learned Romance languages).

As international in Europe? No. As local tounges? Probably.
Arabic is sacred and muslims are from many lands living in
many european countries. Arabic is the exellent choice for
them. Only some empire can change it, like Ottomans did.
 


If only "modern barbarians" such as ISIS fighters and their supporters (and many others!), understood this!
:LOL: :grin:
you mean 30 thousand deranged people against the whole world?

Germanics entered the Western Roman Empire also as "poor refugees", and later destroyed it from within by causing internal turmoil:
At the end these migrants created something more advanced than Romans did, right?
 

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