Neolithic Greek and Anatolian genomes.

Fire Haired14

Fire Haired14

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R1b DF27*
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a2b1
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
Neolithic greek Dna.jpg


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
View attachment 7527


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.
Click to expand...


where didyou get your years from, the paper says

Recent radiocarbon dating indicates that by 6,600 to 6,500 cal BCE, sedentary farming

communities were established in northwest Anatolia,
 
WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
with neolithic more EEF arrived
actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG
 
Fire Haired14 said:
They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.
Click to expand...
What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.
 
bicicleur said:
WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
with neolithic more EEF arrived
actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG
Click to expand...

some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF
 
Sile said:
some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF
Click to expand...

Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?
 
@bicicleur: on this mapping, the CHG seems at the opposite of WHG and even EHG, far from Bedawins too, and very Central Asian (ANE rich?)... not very "southerner" indeed? But I doubt the today and even the 3000 BC Caucasus populations was so close to them (drift + SOuthwest Asian...
 
Angela said:
Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?
Click to expand...

the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Fire Haired14

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.
Click to expand...
LeBrok:What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.
Click to expand...

The EEF/WHG combo didn't exist until after this Mesolithic sample lived. What this paper tells us, in my opinion is that mesolithic hunter gatherers moved around and that they didn't know or care if they were in the "European" part of Eurasia or the "West Asian" part of Eurasia.

I'm not surprised by some of these conclusions. It was pretty clear right after Dienekes published that first talk by one of these authors about the mesolithic mtDna they found, which was very similar to what was found in the Central European Neolithic, and which contained no U5 at all.

This paper provides further support for what I speculated about in the past, that hunter-gatherers already autosomally, and yDna, and mtDna "EEF" like, or, if you prefer, "Anatolian farmer" like, might have migrated into Europe proper by the Mesolithic, and that when agriculture developed, it was brought to Europe by "cousins" very much similar to them autosomally. For all we know, similar populations might have existed in Italy as well.

The other thing the paper confirms is that, as I said many times, Paschou et al were correct. Both Cardial and LBK derived from a group that went from the Near East to Greece (the Aegean), where the two streams separated.

"This result is consistent with early farmers migrating from the Aegean via at least two independent routes into central and southwestern Europe."


The authors point out the obvious discontinuity between the Anatolian farmers and modern Near Easterners. The question remaining is when and with what group(s) did this change come? According to prior papers, the change in Greece, at least, doesn't seem to have occurred in the Bronze Age, but earlier during the transition to the late Neolithic. Unfortunately I don't remember if any dates were provided. That would be important, given the differences in nomenclature depending on the area and even on the nationality of the researchers.
 
Sile said:
the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.
 
Angela said:
I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.
Click to expand...

your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.
 
Sile said:
your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.
Click to expand...

That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.
 
Tomenable said:
??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/106/20150166.figures-only



Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):
Click to expand...
According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tion-by-First-Farmers-EEF?p=463469#post463469

Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.
 
Angela said:
That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.
Click to expand...

Im no moderator but I can say this, some of us are here to boast about their "ancestry's pureness" but some of us are here to learn. Every good scholar may get the answer wrong but the most important part is to learn from our mistakes. ^_^

Fire Haired14 said:
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
View attachment 7527


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.
Click to expand...

Such a nice article btw :)
 
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LeBrok said:
According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tion-by-First-Farmers-EEF?p=463469#post463469

Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.
Click to expand...

I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
 
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ROFL none of these Northern Greek samples was E-V13. It looks like E-M78 mutated in E-V13 somewhere in the western med. It's either Italy or Iberia.
 
Angela said:
I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
Click to expand...
Now I get it, thanks. Perhaps it denots some border between them.
What immediately pops up is close relation of hunter gatherers in their tribes, and "international" character of farmers, judging by variety or lack of such of haplogroups. Farmers were like a vacuum going over carpet of Eurasia, lol.
 
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