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Fire Haired14
26-11-15, 10:20
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/25/032763)

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
7527


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.

bicicleur
26-11-15, 10:41
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/12250065_790524204407116_745812012668454460_n.jpg? oh=b52a413d37a33e9c38a879e3ca466e85&oe=56E47A30

Theopetra cave was occupied since 24 ka

Sile
26-11-15, 10:47
Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/25/032763)

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
7527


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.


where didyou get your years from, the paper says

Recent radiocarbon dating indicates that by 6,600 to 6,500 cal BCE, sedentary farming

communities were established in northwest Anatolia,

bicicleur
26-11-15, 11:08
https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12249772_790531767739693_9089865242335866509_n.jpg ?oh=27b7741797f0d39ad5bf590c0401d835&oe=56F911EF

bicicleur
26-11-15, 15:15
WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
with neolithic more EEF arrived
actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG

LeBrok
26-11-15, 18:07
They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.
What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.

Sile
26-11-15, 18:51
WHG arrived at Theopetra Cave 24 ka and Franchthi Cave 20 ka
WHG was at the Marmara coast before Barcin neolithic (8.6 ka)
EEF fishermen arrived at Franchthi cave 13 ka with obsidian from Melos and seeds of pulses from Anatolia, the fishermen even reached Grotta del'Uzzo in Sicily by 9.5 ka and they were HG on Cyprus 12.5 ka
EEF replaced most of the WHG but admixed with a small part of them ; this was done allready before the arrival of the neolithic in SE Europe
with neolithic more EEF arrived
actually Stutgart genome, defined as EEF is allready mixture of pure EEF with some WHG

some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF

Angela
27-11-15, 20:15
some have said that the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF

Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?

MOESAN
27-11-15, 20:36
@bicicleur: on this mapping, the CHG seems at the opposite of WHG and even EHG, far from Bedawins too, and very Central Asian (ANE rich?)... not very "southerner" indeed? But I doubt the today and even the 3000 BC Caucasus populations was so close to them (drift + SOuthwest Asian...

Sile
27-11-15, 21:01
Who, now that we have ancient dna, is saying that?

the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???

Angela
27-11-15, 21:24
http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=471604#post471604)

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.


LeBrok:What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.

The EEF/WHG combo didn't exist until after this Mesolithic sample lived. What this paper tells us, in my opinion is that mesolithic hunter gatherers moved around and that they didn't know or care if they were in the "European" part of Eurasia or the "West Asian" part of Eurasia.

I'm not surprised by some of these conclusions. It was pretty clear right after Dienekes published that first talk by one of these authors about the mesolithic mtDna they found, which was very similar to what was found in the Central European Neolithic, and which contained no U5 at all.

This paper provides further support for what I speculated about in the past, that hunter-gatherers already autosomally, and yDna, and mtDna "EEF" like, or, if you prefer, "Anatolian farmer" like, might have migrated into Europe proper by the Mesolithic, and that when agriculture developed, it was brought to Europe by "cousins" very much similar to them autosomally. For all we know, similar populations might have existed in Italy as well.

The other thing the paper confirms is that, as I said many times, Paschou et al were correct. Both Cardial and LBK derived from a group that went from the Near East to Greece (the Aegean), where the two streams separated.

"This result is consistent with early farmers migrating from the Aegean via at least two independent routes into central and southwestern Europe."


The authors point out the obvious discontinuity between the Anatolian farmers and modern Near Easterners. The question remaining is when and with what group(s) did this change come? According to prior papers, the change in Greece, at least, doesn't seem to have occurred in the Bronze Age, but earlier during the transition to the late Neolithic. Unfortunately I don't remember if any dates were provided. That would be important, given the differences in nomenclature depending on the area and even on the nationality of the researchers.

Angela
27-11-15, 22:04
the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???

I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.

Sile
27-11-15, 23:13
I'm sorry, but none of this makes any sense. You stated that some people were claiming that "the LBK_EN in central germany where WHG who converted to EEF". First of all, you can't "convert" to a different autosomal group, although you can "convert" from hunter-gathering to farming. Second of all, if what these people meant was that this LBK sample was a WHG genetically who adopted farming, that is patently absurd given all the ancient dna papers published in the last four years, which shows that the EN in Europe were all very much alike and had picked up very MINIMAL WHG. Obviously, I wondered who could be saying such a totally unsupported thing.

Just parenthetically, when people post on a website, it should be clear that ANY member can either support the comment or ask for proof of what is being claimed. If you don't want to be questioned about your statements, don't post. Plus, I actually didn't think that it was you who believed this.

Your subsequent statement is about a totally different matter, which has to do with which ancient population groups in Anatolia admixed to "create" the first farmers. It is based on speculation about Basal Eurasians, a ghost population for which we don't have a sample, and may or may not in actuality exist. IF they existed, and IF they are a "source" for the Anatolian farmers, the other group, IF there was only one, would at most have been WHG like, not Loschbour, as these groups were separated from each other for tens of thousands of years. Given all of this, any numbers about "Basal UHG" vs other "UHG" in the early Anatolian farmers are so speculative as to be totally unhelpful.

As to the "invention" of agriculture in the NEAR EAST, I have no idea whether there was a "Basal Eurasian" group that "invented" farming, or if it was a group already admixed for thousands of years which invented it. If I had to guess I'd guess the latter, but no one can possibly know at the present time.

I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about in the last part of your post. What data did I promise you a year ago? I always try to respond to civil requests for information, although sometimes I either can't find it, or it doesn't exist. I suggest you cool off and try to conduct yourself rationally.

your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.

Tomenable
28-11-15, 00:40
What border? Farmers settled South and Central Europe rather quickly, in 200-300 years.

??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/106/20150166.figures-only

http://d10k7sivr61qqr.cloudfront.net/content/royinterface/12/106/20150166/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):

http://d10k7sivr61qqr.cloudfront.net/content/royinterface/12/106/20150166/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Angela
28-11-15, 01:48
your reply is illogical for you to state a percentage of WHG or EEP cannot change ............you make no sense. Please stop inventing data to suit your needs.

Your typical reply from yourself and others on other forums when the results do not fit their thinking is ..................we need to get more ancient DNA ..............most likely you will still be saying this even if after another 10000 ancients are discovered.

This will be my last reply to you until the matter discussed in my last sentence in my previous post is resolved.

That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.

LeBrok
28-11-15, 03:39
??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/106/20150166.figures-only



Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):


According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31447-Incredible-speed-of-colonization-by-First-Farmers-EEF?p=463469#post463469

Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.

Twilight
28-11-15, 03:46
That will obviously absolutely shatter me, but as I don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about, I will have to try to bear it bravely.

For the record, I will in the future, as I have done in the past, point out that certain posts make absolutely no sense or are unsupported by any genetic, archaeological and/or historic data, regardless of the identity of the poster.

Im no moderator but I can say this, some of us are here to boast about their "ancestry's pureness" but some of us are here to learn. Every good scholar may get the answer wrong but the most important part is to learn from our mistakes. ^_^


Early farmers from across Europe directly descended from Neolithic Aegean (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/11/25/032763)

Below is a Table of the Samples with information(inclu. Y DNA, mtDNA).
7527


Reich already took genomes from the Barcin site in Neolithic Anatolia. This is more confirmation they were "EEF". Although the DNA from Greece is new, and confirms from 8,000-6,000 years ago in Greece there were "EEF" people. The mtDNA and Y DNA results are consistent with EEFs from Central Europe. Both Y DNAs are G2a2 and most mtDNA is K1.

They got mtDNA from a Mesolithic site in Greece(9,000+ years old) and both had mtDNA K1c. This confirms to me Greece was at least partially a continuation of Anatolia genetically back then. We can probably mark the original border of WHG/EEF just west and north of Greece.

I'll look at the details later.

Such a nice article btw :)

Angela
28-11-15, 14:57
According to new research it was a bit faster than that. Except the Northern part of Europe. They took over Balkans in 200-300 years.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31447-Incredible-speed-of-colonization-by-First-Farmers-EEF?p=463469#post463469

Regardless of the speed, I'm not sure where FireHaird want to draw the border between EEF and WHG? Farmers progress was constant.

I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.

Danelaw
28-11-15, 21:50
ROFL none of these Northern Greek samples was E-V13. It looks like E-M78 mutated in E-V13 somewhere in the western med. It's either Italy or Iberia.

LeBrok
28-11-15, 22:17
I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.
Now I get it, thanks. Perhaps it denots some border between them.
What immediately pops up is close relation of hunter gatherers in their tribes, and "international" character of farmers, judging by variety or lack of such of haplogroups. Farmers were like a vacuum going over carpet of Eurasia, lol.

Danelaw
29-11-15, 10:02
So is this the ultimate evidence that at least some mtdna K linages are linked with WHG? That would explain why MENAs who havs them, like Levantines, have some WHG.

epoch
29-11-15, 11:22
the question was raised by T project in regards to the ancient T1a ( LBK_EN ) found in Karsdorf central germany
autosomal ancestral components has been point to be around 70% Western European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) and 30% Basal Eurasian but If the WHG Loschbour is admixed with a Basal Eurasian group then the percentages for KAR6a should be around 34% WHG and 66% Basal Eurasian.

Its an ongoing discussion in another forum.

why do you never answer questions I give you , but you EXPECT answers from me ...........is this an administrators rights?I still await my data you requested and sent for your answers, I think its over a year or more now...........will I ever see this promised reply???


Is that because in some ADMIXTURE runs K=20 Loschbour has EEF admixture? Because I have a hunch that it's noise, caused by the way ADMIXTURE tries to separate core populations and admixted ones.

epoch
29-11-15, 11:33
I think he may have meant that the border between the WHG and the genetically "Anatolian farmer/EEF like" hunter-gatherers of Greece (if it turns out that Mesolithic hunter gatherers similar to the farmers genetically had indeed moved into Greece before the "invention" of farming and animal domestication) was probably north and west of Greece.

That may be true, but as I've speculated before, perhaps it went up along the Adriatic, and perhaps it extended further to the west into Italy as well.

Ed. At any rate, this doesn't mean that the Neolithic didn't come to Europe with farmers from the Near East. It just means that it's possible some of their cousins had arrived before them.


Kostenki14 has affinity with the non-WHG part of EEF:

Bichon Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0065 -0.877 309406
Iberia_Mesolithic Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0284 -3.942 396775
Loschbour Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0215 -3.029 439854
Hungary_HG Kostenki14_UP Oetzi_Iceman Iberia_MN -0.0045 -0.633 351009

Middle Neolithic Iberians have far more WHG than Oetzi.

I have a hunch that a small part of EEF actually is decendant from K14, and that the alleged Basal Eurasian admixture in K14 is actually not admixture in K14, but admixture in Anatolians from K14, which was eliminated by drift in other decendants of K14 due to isolation of LGM. I'm still thinking of the D-stat which could separate that, though.

EDIT: The difference in those D-stats between Bichon (13k yo) and Iberian_mesolithic subtracted from K14 on the one end and Losch and KO1 subtracted from K14 on the other end puzzles me very much. The CB13 paper already found out that KO1 like type WHG is the most likely candidate for WHG admixture in EEF. But Loschbour is not, as is clearly shown in that paper. The only thing that I can think of is that La Brana is far older than currently is mentioned - Misdated somehow - and some shared drift by the newer ones is also shared by the EEF part. But that would still be very strange.

epoch
29-11-15, 11:37
It is a damn shame that we only have the mtDNA of those HG's. This way we can't correlate the mtDNA with a component.

Maciamo
29-11-15, 13:52
What I find particularly interesting in this study is the absence of mt-haplogroup H, apart from one H5 sample. I have long argued that most H subclades were native to Europe (except H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, which are Near Eastern in origin). Most people seem to have been convinced that H1, for instance, came with Neolithic farmers, simply because it hasn't been found in Mesolithic Europeans samples so far but suddenly pops up in Neolithic samples. Despite that evidence I continued to be skeptical and argued that H1 originated in southern Europe and was among the first lineages assimilated by Neolithic farmers and brought further north. The Anatolian data supports my hypothesis.

As for the Mesolithic Greek K1c, I have written several years ago that K1c was not brought by Neolithic farmers, but was probably of Indo-European origin, meaning Eastern Hunter-Gatherer. Those samples Mesolithic Thessaly would imply that K1c was found not just in the Steppes, but also a bit further south following the western Black Sea coast, which is very plausible for mobile hunter-gatherers.

EDIT : It would be interesting to see how the two Mesolithic Greeks samples compare with Steppe samples in term of admixture. Will they carry EHG admixture ?

MOESAN
29-11-15, 14:49
??? Actually it took them around 2000 years (from ~8000 ybp to ~6000 years before present):

By the way - they migrated not only by land, but also by boat (for example from Greece to Iberia):

http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/12/106/20150166.figures-only

http://d10k7sivr61qqr.cloudfront.net/content/royinterface/12/106/20150166/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Here we can see that once they moved north, the speed of their advance slowed down (red color):

http://d10k7sivr61qqr.cloudfront.net/content/royinterface/12/106/20150166/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

It seems serious enough. Thanks for docs.
curiously, Britain which was settled among the later lands, show big speed of propagation: Long Barrows? It could check the period?

Fire Haired14
29-11-15, 20:49
The only way lots of H could be from Mesolithic Europeans IMO is if SE Europe was autosomally not WHG and had lots of H. IMO, there isn't enough data on H to have an idea what its history is. We need full sequences Hs from all over West Eurasia. We don't currently have that.

If it weren't for ancient mtDNA I'd think J1c and T2b colonized Europe after the Ice age, because there's not much of it in West Asia. But, ancient DNA has shown modern people aren't representative of ancient people in the same region. So, what may appear to be European H(or J or T) today is may not be from Europe.

Sile
30-11-15, 07:50
What I find particularly interesting in this study is the absence of mt-haplogroup H, apart from one H5 sample. I have long argued that most H subclades were native to Europe (except H2, H5, H7, H13 and H20, which are Near Eastern in origin). Most people seem to have been convinced that H1, for instance, came with Neolithic farmers, simply because it hasn't been found in Mesolithic Europeans samples so far but suddenly pops up in Neolithic samples. Despite that evidence I continued to be skeptical and argued that H1 originated in southern Europe and was among the first lineages assimilated by Neolithic farmers and brought further north. The Anatolian data supports my hypothesis.

As for the Mesolithic Greek K1c, I have written several years ago that K1c was not brought by Neolithic farmers, but was probably of Indo-European origin, meaning Eastern Hunter-Gatherer. Those samples Mesolithic Thessaly would imply that K1c was found not just in the Steppes, but also a bit further south following the western Black Sea coast, which is very plausible for mobile hunter-gatherers.

EDIT : It would be interesting to see how the two Mesolithic Greeks samples compare with Steppe samples in term of admixture. Will they carry EHG admixture ?

In reply to your H1

The T1a-m70 man in Karsdorf Germany from 7222ybp has H1au1b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28mtDNA%29#H1)

So, his father met this H1au1b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_%28mtDNA%29#H1) in Karsdorf , which would indicate earlier times

Maciamo
30-11-15, 08:17
The only way lots of H could be from Mesolithic Europeans IMO is if SE Europe was autosomally not WHG and had lots of H. IMO, there isn't enough data on H to have an idea what its history is. We need full sequences Hs from all over West Eurasia. We don't currently have that.

If it weren't for ancient mtDNA I'd think J1c and T2b colonized Europe after the Ice age, because there's not much of it in West Asia. But, ancient DNA has shown modern people aren't representative of ancient people in the same region. So, what may appear to be European H(or J or T) today is may not be from Europe.

The way I see it is that J1c and T2b were already present in the Balkans AND Anatolia when the first farmers arrived from the Fertile Crescent. T2b was found in Mesolithic Russia and Sweden, so it must have expanded early, probably just after the LGM. It could have originated in the Caucasus or anywhere around the Caspian Sea, then spread north to Russia (then Sweden), and west to Anatolia and the Balkans.

Let's not forget that agriculture arose about 11,500 years ago in the Fertile Crescent, but these early farmers remained in the Fertile Crescent for some 2500 years before they decided to expand to northern and western Anatolia and Europe. Once they had started it only took them a few centuries to reach Germany and France from Greece.

The original farmers (9500-6500 BCE) were Basal Eurasian in term of autosomal DNA, and also carried Basal Eurasian Y-DNA (G2a and surely also G2b in the south) and mtDNA (N1, N2, W, X). We have seen times and again that Paleolithic and Mesolithic tribes were fairly homogeneous in terms of both admixture and haplogroups. By this logic, the first farmers in the Fertile Crescent must have carried overwhelmingly Basal Eurasian haplogroups. The only notable exceptions are H5 and K1a. But who knows, they could have been absorbed from close neighours within or just outside the Fertile Crescent between 9500 and 6500 BCE. Since R1b was already in the region at the time, domesticating cattle in the northern Fertile Crescent, it is not unreasonable that G2a farmers picked up lineages like H5 or even U8b1 (the ancestor of K*) and K1a from intermarriages with their cattle herding neighbours. After all H is overwhelmingly European and U8 has been found in Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe, including Russia, where other R1 tribes lived.

In my eyes, the J1c, T2b, U3 found in the Bacin site were all assimilated Mesolithic Anatolians. I have linked (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29400-Correlating-the-mtDNA-haplogroups-of-the-original-Y-haplogroup-J1-and-T1-herders) mtDNA U3 to Y-haplogroup J1 and T1, which both seem to have expanded from the Caucasus region. J1c was surely found in the Balkans and Anatolia, while T2b would have been all over the Black Sea and Caspian Sea periphery. In other words, T2b and U3 were almost surely found among J1, J2 and T1 tribes living at the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent, while J1c could have belonged to a yet undefined Mesolithic Aegean tribe (C1a2, I2c, H2 ?), with other mt-haplogroups like various H subclades.

Fire Haired14
30-11-15, 10:56
@Maciamo,

I agree with that. It makes sense for much of EEF mtDNA to be from hunter gatherers in Anatolia and Greece. I doubt the first farmers were 100% Basal Eurasian though. In Palaeilthic Caucasus there were WHG/ANE+Basal Eurasian admixed populations so I suspect the first farmers were WHG+Basal Eurasian, just less WHG than in Anatolian Neolithic.

Angela
07-06-16, 23:46
The new, official version of this paper can be found here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32342-New-data-from-Greek-amp-Anatolian-Neolithic