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View Full Version : interpretation of last surveys results about transition Meso-Neolithic-Bronze



MOESAN
05-12-15, 23:52
What followsunder is a kind of personal so maybe unrelying digest of the up todate situation concerning aDNA ; it can be overlooked or at theopposite serve point by point for more precisely dedicated threads.Sorry if sometimes I seem repeating myself.


Whatever thecomputing and the PCAs or admixtures used*, I see :
- The Neolithicpeople arrived in Europe were autosomally globally homogenous* enoughat the origin. The same can be said concerning the HGs region byregion (West, North, East...) ;
* :I take admixtures as a tool for comparisons between chronologicallyclose enough populations, not as an absolute bible ; an auDNApartial package 'labelled' Z shared by populations don't prove thehigher provided one is the source of the other : they can havereceived this Z elements from a third contemporaneous or more ancientpopulation, and helas the labelling of this auDNA can change fromstudy to study...
* :in fact, every local group is homogenousenough : we can see a shift from West Anatolian Neolithic peopletowards today Sardinians position (so partly towards Basques and WHC,but more « southern » : >> AFN ? Or LessFertile Crescent ?) ; on this way we find Early Neolithicof Hungary and Early Neolithic LBK, then Early Neolithic of Iberiathen Middle Neolithic of Central Europe, then Middle Neolithic ofIberia ; these last « Iberians » have already passedSardinians towards WHG, and the phenomenon a bit confirmed byChalcolithic of Iberia (North). As time passed the pre-Neolithicelement augments in the admixture, whatever the kind of WHG whichparticiped to it. This problem of what sort of HG needs more detailsbut we could suppose the (W)HG absorbed by some future « Iberians »could have been taken in Central Europe or elsewhere, and not byforce among Iberia Leon WHGs. Same « local » aspect ofhomogeneity for HGs (West, Scandinavia, East). Baalberge, Esperstedtand Gokhem MN show some trend towards WHG too, not surprising in MN ;question : what (W)HG ? A Loschbour or Gamba's one, aScandinavian one, or a more atlantic one, interesting to knowconcerning the coastal megalitihtism question.
- What stroke me isthe great heterogeneity of Late Neolithic-Copper transition andBronze Age people in North-Central and East-Central Europe comparedto the stage of Early Bronze Samara Yamnaya.
It is evident inCorded CWC but also in BBs, spite their Y-Haplos stayed veryhomogenous (R1a or R1b). Evident too for Hungary Bronze. Not onlythey covered a large range on PCAs and show their individualvariability, but their heterogeneity is evident compared to modernpopulations and Steppes populations which preceded them or followedthem, except at Iron Age. Someone can object some culture wereanalysed through small samples. We can also object that some ancientADN was poorly recovered. But even like that, seen from far, thesketch remains the same. It is true the Lazaridis PCA showing thelonger within distances has more individuals than an older Haak's oneshowing less. This is not only an impression caused by PCA's for theadmixtures by individuals show the same, what we don't find at thislevel of variation in modern populations, except recent migrantscases.
- concerning timingin supposed steppic descendants, I see a light shift of EneolithicSamara towards today North Caucasus populations ('teal' ?CHG?) with a stronger shift in the same direction among subsequentEarly Yamnaya Samara, as with a few remnants of Poltkava Samara andPotapovka Samara. Continual gradual shift sinceNeolithic and not a subit introgression at metals ages ? Orboth ? The human exchangesbetween Corded and Pit Grave Yamnaya cultures is not clear to me.Corded DNA seems a mix of Yamnaya Samara with modern North Europeans,what is a weird picture, chronologically impossible : but itshows for me Cordedwere shifted towards aneuropean mix of neolithic EEF and somediverse (?)additional HGs. In Lazaridis PCA I have picked, Corded seem drownamong a LNBA of Central Europe*, so with Unetice and others ?It's very possible firstCorded were more homogenous people at some stage, as thought Coon.BBs are very heterogenousspanning among others amongFrench, British, Czech andBulgarian people of today, so even more « southerned »than other LBA people except the Hungary ones.Thesubsequent groups of Steppes seem more homogenous ; Srubnaya areshifted from Samara Yamanya towards central Europe, and not the mosthomogenous. The others, Sintashta and Andronovo seem more homogenousand shifted even farther towards EEF, evocating South-Central modernEuropean populations.
* :I repeat Unetice auDNA isjust in middleof Cordedand BBs : no hazard, confirmation of archeology ; Unetice =osmosis before kinf odstabilization.
-North Europe LNBA, BBs, Hungary BA,Sintashta, Andronovo, all overlapone with another spite beingmore or less homogenous and havng different centroids. Cordedseems making the link between them and Srubnaya, but none doesoverlap seriously with Yamnaya Samara ; would this statementprove Corded was the historical provider of the apparently sharedauDNA ? I cannot say. Things are surely more complicated. Butphysical types of Coon 's 'corded' definition were seen in all metalsages from Scandinavia, France, Britain to Greece, accordingot time and culture stage... common type among steppic tribes with diverse %s ofimput? almost sure !






- It does not seemthe case concerning Copper Age in Balkans or Italy, where theautosomes point to a very southern kind of population, almost moresouthern than Early Neolithic ones and without too much traces ofsteppic or west-asian imputs. Close case with North IberiaChalcolithic but here the WHG accretion is stronger, making themcloser to Basques, but not indentical : Chalco- Iberians lac kthe 'northern+steppic' element today Basques have, that cannot be amodern Spanish inheritage for good reasons (%s!) ; when II drawa ratio 'gedrosia-caucasus' of Iberia, Basque country is the centerof radiation of 'gedrosia', the gradiant passing throughCastile-Leon, then Catalunya, decreasing towards South and West(Galicia is poor of 'gedrosia', confirming other odd things) ;'gedrosia' in Iberia is not an old peripheric southwestern form of anold layer of 'westasian' which would have lacked innovations, and itseems an element arrived there from North Atlantic...


-This large span ofLN-C-BA merging populations autosomes affiliations North Hungarycountry seems in part theresult of very mobile small enough groups of predominantly maleselites mating here and there generation by generation according tothe place they were colonizing, said in a simplistic way. Only afterthe first stage begun the stabilization and homogeneization we seeamong Sintashta or Andronovo* people for the most, and perhaps at alower scale, among Unetice.
* :For Andronovo I doubt the more eastern sites were so homogenous butwho knows ?
The question of BBsremains : are the BBs we see studied in Germany or Bohemia thesame as the first ones in North Portugal (before expansion to SouthIberia and later ones to North or East) ? Difference of placeand time ! Concerning auDNA, spite they have more EEF orMediter+Atlantic than Corded have, these northern BBs were a bit onthe northeastern side of Europeans ! And in the hypothesis of aremote iberian origin I have hard work to imagine some foreign peoplein relatively limited number taking over greater populations andeliminating the original Y-DNA of these predecessors.
Were the firt BBs ofSouth Y-R1b people too ? Not sure, not excluded spite my firstbelievings ! But they could also have born an Y-R1b distinctfrom the P312 if not distinct from L51 ? Southern Y-R1b rich forL23 and poor for the previous stage for L51, in too reduced number topromote new mutations ? Colonizating Western Europe in smallnumbers through Southern Italy and Eastern Iberia ? The « H15 »connexion ? The 'dinaric' types who seem associated with metalsprospectors in Western Europe since the Chalcolithic (so even before3000 BC and after) could be the result of a stage of a Y-R1b clan inthe Carpathians* where this type is present today at some visiblelevel in some places. When we see the very open fork of variationsamong the elites at those times everything seems possible...
* :rich for mtH too ; R1b-L23 could have come directly from WestAnatolia, but it is not sure for me at this stage : the diverseR1b South Caucasus seem more lost tails than demographic hearths fordownstreams SNPs ; I can be wrong as easily, interpretation ofsuccessions of SNPs and variability of STRs are so hazardous.
- To come back tothe first metals cultures in East Europe the different PCAsadmixtures works (scientists, hobbyists) about ancDNA seem to metend towards the same conclusions : Bronze Armenians compared tomodern Armenians had less 'teal' or 'west-asian' (in it, CHG), lessEEF and more « WHG » (+ EHGs ?) than modernArmenians, so they were maybe more « steppic » butperhaps on the « northwestern » aspect of « steppic » ;the between situation of Bronze Armenians does not say us at firstthe direction of flow either genetic or cultural, but the presence ofEEF among them - even if low enough – when EEF is absent amongYamnaya, does not plaid for a demic move of Armenia bronzers towardsthe Steppes at those times, or I am wrong somewhere ?
- The Sintashta andAndronovo compared to Yamnaya seem showing a complement of DNA fromCentral-South-Eastern Europe increasing the WHG and the EEF part atthe cost of 'teal' and surely EHG.


& :objections : the BBs, Corded and subsequant phenomena spanned alittle bit of time and the sketch I make here concerningheterogeneity doesn't take this in account. It is very possible firstCorded were more homogenous before gaining place and « audiance ».


in Hungary, theBronze people (the few we have) seem having incorporated more (W)HGsince Copper. The question could be : is the WHG element a localone resurging after they had stayed concealed somewhere in diverseplaces of Europe (some cases) or is this WHG a southeastern Europeone taken on the road by Anatolian metallurgists.

MOESAN
10-01-16, 00:47
addenda based upon GENETIKER admixtures runs K15 with the risk of bias maybe?
4 Funnelbeaker men
one shows a little 'gravettian', less than 3% (EHG?) and about 12-14% 'westasian' or 'caucasianlike', the remnant: his kind of 'mediterranean' or 'EEFlike', so a big majority.
the 3 others: more than 20% of 'gravettian', 0% 'caucasianlike' so majority of 'mediterranean' too. the first one is the newcomer I think, the 3 others are the predecessors "westerners", more megalithic.
His Timber Graves people are - as almost all the 2000 BC and later people so later come compared to Pit Grave Yamnaya - less 'westasian' or 'caucasianlike' but more 'mediterranean' than Pit Grave and Afansyevo precedent people. But this Timber Grave are very unlevel between themselves concerning some 'eastasian' component. Contacts of post-Corded tribes with early finno-ugric people of East before these last ones took the strong side in Northern Central Eurasia?