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View Full Version : So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid?



Gurka atla
06-12-15, 13:41
Based on at-DNA and anthropology of ancient and medieval Turks seems to suggest they were Mongoloid and part Mongoloid ( from 1/5 to 4/5 Mongoloid ).
How else do we explain these signfificant East Eurasian / Mongoloid admixture in modern Turkish population?

( Note: Mongoloid admixture is only low in East Turkey because that region is predominated by Kurdish ethnic minority 15 million )

http://i.hizliresim.com/vEB25v.png

http://i57.tinypic.com/a4wmyx.png



http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg



Mongoloid admixture is low in East Turkey because they are predominated by Kurish speakers and even in the Northeast are populated by many other ethic minorities of non-Turkic origin.

http://www.iranreview.org/file/cms/files/kurdistan1.gif


In fact they even dream of a Kurdistan country in Turkey ( which will always be a dream )

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KCiXuLgcW6w/VQ1J0GQXNdI/AAAAAAAABYM/cpRmyaFT7qg/s1600/Kurdistan%2BHypocristan%2BTurkey%2Badministration% 2Bmap2.jpg

Gurka atla
06-12-15, 13:45
OGHUZ TURKS

Oghuz from Western + Southern Kazakhstan.

" Among the Oghuz (mainly in the steppe zone of their resettlement) mainly dominant Mongoloid racial type. "They - wrote about the Aral Oghuz in the tenth century. Al-Masudi, - most of undersized (Turks) and they have very small eyes" [11]. Other medieval authors note poorly defined vegetation on the face and body and Ploskonos Oguz. All of this suggests Mongoloid features that were characteristic of the bulk predominantly steppe Oguz [12]. "


http://i45.tinypic.com/zmf75y.jpg


Click here to view the original image of 600x798px.


They later mixed with the Central Asian Iranic inhabitants




" These written sources of X-XII centuries. the physical appearance of the Oghuz confirm some paleoanthropological materials.

Among the found in the Oguz-Pecheneg mounds of western Kazakhstan skulls dominant Mongoloid types with the South Siberian features. However, there are also found the skull Caucasoid and metisnogo appearance. [13]

More intensive process of ethnic assimilation is likely to take place among the Oghuz south-western regions of Central Asia. Quite a few, but very interesting in this respect craniological material is located in southern Kazakhstan. In excavated ANBernshtam Oguz cemeteries Sasyk-Bulak buried dolihokrannye Caucasoids mixed with Mongoloid features. [14] "


http://i50.tinypic.com/73hqo0.jpg

GOKTURKS


Gokturk from Altai



http://i48.tinypic.com/2cz4nwz.jpg

Click here to view the original image of 672x869px.



An Gokturk V-VIII AD, Kyrgyzstan

http://i48.tinypic.com/kbpuf5.jpg


Gokturk from Mongolia

http://s018.radikal.ru/i507/1207/6a/7aff2dd0817b.jpg
http://s11.radikal.ru/i183/1207/1b/c13fc0deb0fb.jpg

Gurka atla
06-12-15, 13:48
OGHUZ TURKS ( it includes both Gokturks and Seljuks )


" Among the Oghuz (mainly in the steppe zone of their resettlement) mainly dominant Mongoloid racial type. "They - wrote about the Aral Oghuz in the tenth century. Al-Masudi, - most of undersized (Turks) and they have very small eyes" [11]. Other medieval authors note poorly defined vegetation on the face and body and Ploskonos Oguz. All of this suggests Mongoloid features that were characteristic of the bulk predominantly steppe Oguz [12]. "


XIONGNU ( possibly ancestors of Huns )


" Well-preserved bodies in Xiongnu and pre-Xiongnu tombs in the Mongolian Republic and southern Siberia show both 'Mongoloid' and 'Caucasian' features[50] but are predominantly Mongoloid with some admixture of European physical stock, nonetheless the Xiongnu shared many cultural traits with their Indo-European neighbors, such as horse racing, sword worship.[51] Analysis of skeletal remains from sites attributed to the Xiongnu provides an identification of dolichocephalic Mongoloid, ethnically distinct from neighboring populations in present-day Mongolia.[52]

Danelaw
06-12-15, 15:10
Anatolian Turks as whole score about 6% East Eurasian admixture. Not all of it came with Oghuz Turks, because many steppe groups of eastern central asia were already mixed with Mongoloids and larer these people migrated in the middle east.

Gurka atla
06-12-15, 17:09
Anatolian Turks as whole score about 6% East Eurasian admixture. Not all of it came with Oghuz Turks, because many steppe groups of eastern central asia were already mixed with Mongoloids and larer these people migrated in the middle east.

It really depends on what region.

1/2 of them have 5-10%
1/3 of them have 10-15%
1/4 of them have 2-3%
1/10 of them have 15-18%

There are also individual samples with 20 - 24.7% East Asian but it's extremely rare ( properly 1/100 ) and most sample study are ussually just 20 to 50.

And haplogroup does not suggest they have much Central Asian markers. Y-DNA shows only 5.7% Q, N in turkey ( although this ranges from 3% to 13% depending on the region ) but it's hard to say because some of the R1a and R1b in Turkey may have possibly derived from the Central Asian varitiety of Mongoloids or Turanids. As many of ancient Turks ( predating the existance of Turkic ethnicity and maybe even language ) hand carried R1a and were of Mongoloid appearance that included many of the Xiongnu elite burial who were Mongoloids with R1a while other were C3, D4 Tungids, other Xiongnu carried mostly Q, N.

Not only is Central Asia extremely complex but so is the the region of Turkey who had many different states and many different ethnicities long before Turkic intrusion.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Anatolian_Beyliks_in_1300.png

Tomenable
06-12-15, 17:38
Yes, but what exactly defines Mongoloid? Is there a clear-cut boundary between it and Caucasoid? For example Turkic and Mongolic languages are relatively closely related to Indo-European and Uralic, while the latter groups are Caucasoid (or rather Uralics are transitional Caucasoid-Mongoloid, Turkics are transitional Mongoloid-Caucasoid, Mongolics are "pure" Mongoloid):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ANXG-rqrwyw/VgSscg2-slI/AAAAAAAADck/C70ttuZWRuo/s632/Fig_1_macrofamilies.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ANXG-rqrwyw/VgSscg2-slI/AAAAAAAADck/C70ttuZWRuo/s632/Fig_1_macrofamilies.png

How do languages evolve:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDKsHm6gTA

Tomenable
06-12-15, 18:04
many of the Xiongnu elite burial who were Mongoloids with R1a

Not sure where did you take this from. The scientific study described him as "a Western Eurasian male", so not a Mongoloid:

An autosomally Western Eurasian male, with haplogroups R1a1 (Y-DNA) and U2e1 (mtDNA), found in Xiongnu elite cemetery:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract;jsessionid=B58DE687130C09668A1B0A5BB78080 94.f02t01


A western Eurasian male is found in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Mongolia:

We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP), and autosomal short tandem repeats (STR) of three skeletons found in a 2,000-year-old Xiongnu elite cemetery in Duurlig Nars of Northeast Mongolia. This study is one of the first reports of the detailed genetic analysis of ancient human remains using the three types of genetic markers. The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia. This might indicate an Indo-European migration into Northeast Asia 2,000 years ago. Other specimens are a female with mtDNA haplogroup D4 and a male with Y-SNP haplogroup C3 and mtDNA haplogroup D4. (...) There was no close kinship among them. The genetic evidence of U2e1 and R1a1 may help to clarify the migration patterns of Indo-Europeans and ancient East-West contacts of the Xiongnu Empire. Artifacts in the tombs suggested that the Xiongnu had a system of the social stratification. The West Eurasian male might show the racial tolerance of the Xiongnu Empire and some insight into the Xiongnu society.

Read more here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31576-What-branch-of-R1a-M417-could-Caucasoid-mummies-of-Xiaohe-belong-to?p=467059&viewfull=1#post467059

And here as well:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31587-J1-Sarmatians-in-Beslan?p=467645&viewfull=1#post467645

That man was not native to that region, but an immigrant from behind the Altai, most likely an Indo-European speaker.

Genetic boundary between East Asians and West Eurasians was along in the Altai region during the Bronze Age:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31587-J1-Sarmatians-in-Beslan?p=467395&viewfull=1#post467395

A. Frequency of East Asian mtDNA haplogroups prior to the Iron Age.
B. Frequency of East Asian mtDNA haplogroups by the end of the Iron Age.

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

Anthropological studies also confirm what those mtDNA maps say - in the Bronze Age Kazakhstan was Caucasoid:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

Boreas
06-12-15, 23:13
In my opinion,

First of all, we need to accept the faluire of mongoloid term. Even Mongol people are mixed so they can't be a race name. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMAFTnweRjI/AAAAAAAACvw/vWC37ZhaxZ8/s1600/color8.png

You can use Sardiniod term instead of Mediterreanean Race or you can use term yakutoid. Because Yakut people and Sardinian people are very pure, they can be core race, but not the mongols.

An other example
http://i45.tinypic.com/2zo9nvt.jpg

Gurka atla
07-12-15, 01:59
Not sure where did you take this from. The scientific study described him as "a Western Eurasian male", so not a Mongoloid:

An autosomally Western Eurasian male, with haplogroups R1a1 (Y-DNA) and U2e1 (mtDNA), found in Xiongnu elite cemetery:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21242/abstract;jsessionid=B58DE687130C09668A1B0A5BB78080 94.f02t01



Read more here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31576-What-branch-of-R1a-M417-could-Caucasoid-mummies-of-Xiaohe-belong-to?p=467059&viewfull=1#post467059

And here as well:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31587-J1-Sarmatians-in-Beslan?p=467645&viewfull=1#post467645

That man was not native to that region, but an immigrant from behind the Altai, most likely an Indo-European speaker.

Genetic boundary between East Asians and West Eurasians was along in the Altai region during the Bronze Age:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31587-J1-Sarmatians-in-Beslan?p=467395&viewfull=1#post467395

A. Frequency of East Asian mtDNA haplogroups prior to the Iron Age.
B. Frequency of East Asian mtDNA haplogroups by the end of the Iron Age.

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

Anthropological studies also confirm what those mtDNA maps say - in the Bronze Age Kazakhstan was Caucasoid:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg


The Pazyryk culture is Indo-European but many of the burials are between Half Mongoloid men with Europoid females, the males seems to be R1a. The R1a in Turkic could have predated Turkic ethnicity and languages rather than recieving from Indo-Europeans.


It's only 1 Western Eurasian male. The others 2 were found to be a male with haplogroup C3 and mtDNA D4, and another with D4.

Three Xiongnu elite

1 Xiongnu R1a and U2e1
1 Xiongnu C3 and D4
1 Xiognu with D4.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091844

Kim K1, Brenner CH, Mair VH, Lee KH, Kim JH, Gelegdorj E, Batbold N, Song YC, Yun HW, Chang EJ, Lkhagvasuren G, Bazarragchaa M, Park AJ, Lim I, Hong YP, Kim W, Chung SI, Kim DJ, Chung YH, Kim SS, Lee WB, Kim KY.

Author information

Abstract

" We analyzed mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP), and autosomal short tandem repeats (STR) of three skeletons found in a 2,000-year-old Xiongnu elite cemetery in Duurlig Nars of Northeast Mongolia. This study is one of the first reports of the detailed genetic analysis of ancient human remains using the three types of genetic markers. The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia. This might indicate an Indo-European migration into Northeast Asia 2,000 years ago. Other specimens are a female with mtDNA haplogroup D4 and a male with Y-SNP haplogroup C3 and mtDNA haplogroup D4. Those haplogroups are common in Northeast Asia. There was no close kinship among them. The genetic evidence of U2e1 and R1a1 may help to clarify the migration patterns of Indo-Europeans and ancient East-West contacts of the Xiongnu Empire. Artifacts in the tombs suggested that the Xiongnu had a system of the social stratification. The West Eurasian male might show the racial tolerance of the Xiongnu Empire and some insight into the Xiongnu society. "

The most newest and recent data by Chinese and Russian anthropologist shows Xiongnu were Mongoloid, not Europoid Chinese translation to English (you can still understand most of it )

( English translation to Chinese )

" Xiongnu were of dolichocephalic Mongoloid rather than Europoid, a mestizo crossbreed nation of primary South Siberian and Indo-European traits ".

" Wrong classifications of Xiongnu being Europoid was due to the fact dolichopehalic is rare in Eastern Asia but extremely common among the Europeans, Turkic, East African, Oceanic "

" A re-examining shows all physical traits of Xiongnu can be found in modern Central Asia rather than West Eurasia ".

" Xiongnu craniofacial clusters with present day population of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan more than they do with Mongolia, Turkey, Russia "

" Biological traits of east-west mestizo populations had existed in pre-Xiongnu tombs which supports a very positive hypothesis that not all Central Asia were resulted from the Mongol invasion "

Face reconstruction of Xiongnu.


http://i50.tinypic.com/4sl1ft.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/14buxit.jpg

Gurka atla
07-12-15, 02:08
Yes, but what exactly defines Mongoloid? Is there a clear-cut boundary between it and Caucasoid? For example Turkic and Mongolic languages are relatively closely related to Indo-European and Uralic, while the latter groups are Caucasoid (or rather Uralics are transitional Caucasoid-Mongoloid, Turkics are transitional Mongoloid-Caucasoid, Mongolics are "pure" Mongoloid):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ANXG-rqrwyw/VgSscg2-slI/AAAAAAAADck/C70ttuZWRuo/s632/Fig_1_macrofamilies.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ANXG-rqrwyw/VgSscg2-slI/AAAAAAAADck/C70ttuZWRuo/s632/Fig_1_macrofamilies.png

How do languages evolve:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDKsHm6gTA


Mongol / Turkic are not close to Indo-European, but close to Uralic.

Any similarties was due to cultural exchanges, borrowing words, not because they came from the same root so overall they are all completely seperate language families.


Tell a half black / half white person how he defines himsefl and he always defines themselves as black.

In my opinion, I think Turkic people are Eurasians although we call them Central Asian Turanids, they are not that much different from those Half Asian / Half White. Both are mixture of Mongoloid and Caucasoid except the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz are more like 2/3 Mongoloid While Uzbeks, Uyghur are roughly 1/2 while Turkmen are 1/4 to 1/3 on average ( although many are also 1/2 ).




Half Chinese / Half White
http://images.phlog.net/photos/6888/images/296519_c0255_original.jpg?1278099699

Half Chinese / Half white
http://i42.tinypic.com/zsmgw0.jpg

Half Japanese / Half British
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIlSCoBCYAA7uYm.jpg:large

Half Korean / Half White
http://i.mdldb.net/cache/caw/86055420778046628_7a8d2bbf_c.jpg

Half Korean / Half White
https://ktopia.net/images/stars/julienkang.png

Gurka atla
07-12-15, 02:41
In my opinion,

First of all, we need to accept the faluire of mongoloid term. Even Mongol people are mixed so they can't be a race name. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMAFTnweRjI/AAAAAAAACvw/vWC37ZhaxZ8/s1600/color8.png

You can use Sardiniod term instead of Mediterreanean Race or you can use term yakutoid. Because Yakut people and Sardinian people are very pure, they can be core race, but not the mongols.

An other example
http://i45.tinypic.com/2zo9nvt.jpg



So how would you define them?

They are basically Northern Mongoloid ( Tungids ) with little Caucasian admixture

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Mongoloid_Australoid_Negrito_Asia_Distribution_of_ Asian_peoples_Sinodont_Sundadont.GIF/200px-Mongoloid_Australoid_Negrito_Asia_Distribution_of_ Asian_peoples_Sinodont_Sundadont.GIF


Also if Mongols can't be described as Mongoloid than I don't think Southeast Asians can be called Mongoloid aswell. True Mongoloids can therefore be only Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese. ( and maybe Japanese is you include Jomon to be Mongoloid )

Especially when Southeast Asian like Indonesians, Cambodians, Malay, Burmese, Thais all have South Asian and Australoid admixture but it doesn't change the fact they still part of Mongoloid race.

http://i48.tinypic.com/29o5qj5.jpg



Indonesians and Burmese lack Australoid admixture but they have 10-20% Indian/Paki mtDNA with 10-15% in Y-DNA Indian/Paki Y-DNA.

Malays, Thais have 7-11% Negrito mtDNA , and 5-10% Indian/Paki mtDNA , 5-10% Indian/Paki Y-DNA

Cambodians lack australoid admixture but 5% Indian/Paki mtDNA and 18% Indian/Paki Y-DNA.



Look at the bottom. Notice How Thais and Cambodians are less Asian than Mongolians? Thais, Cambodians have 18-23% non-Asian admixture while Mongolians have only 3-5% non-asian admixture in this study.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Oa3bBts6e3M/Ur6VH_81tpI/AAAAAAAAAUI/JGoPs1UmWyA/s1600/Lazaridis2014_EDF3_K6.png

Tomenable
07-12-15, 18:27
The R1a in Turkic could have predated Turkic ethnicity and languages rather than recieving from Indo-Europeans.

IMO they received R1a from Indo-Europeans, but what do you think about such an idea:

That Turkic peoples (and languages) emerged as a mixture of Mongolic and IE groups ???

As for Xiongnu, IMO they could mixed Mongoloid-Caucasoid, as these guys from your photos.

Even today in Mongolia there is some West Eurasian admixture, higher than in Japan or China.

Easternmost Indo-European groups also became partially Mongoloid as they mixed with the locals.

Boreas
07-12-15, 21:18
So how would you define them?

They are basically Northern Mongoloid ( Tungids ) with little Caucasian admixture


Using another term for example if the mongoliod features show with yellow colour in your figure, using word han / hanoid is more logical, so Mongol people are mostly Hanoid with a little other features, but not Han people are mongoid.

It is like you are living in blue-green world and when you see firstly orange and then red, you are saying that red is varyant of orange. The main colour should be red. Orange is the mixed colour of red and yellow.

We have to eliminate historical naming and perspective for the truth.

Tomenable
07-12-15, 23:00
The R1a in Turkic could have predated Turkic ethnicity and languages rather than recieving from Indo-Europeans.

What variety of R1a do Turkic peoples have? As far as I know they have mostly R1a1a1b2a Z94.

We have an ancient DNA sample of Z94 from Poltavka culture, dated to 4940 - 4550 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltavka_culture

And if you check YFull website, they estimate the TMRCA of Z94 as around 4800 years ago:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

So unless YFull estimates are too young, that Z94 guy lived very close to the emergence of Z94.

That is not the last time we see Z94 in aDNA record, it appears later in all Indo-Iranian cultures.

We have Z93 / Z94 (and their derived subclades) in Sintashta, Srubna, Andronovo, and so on.

So in my opinion with 99% certainty Turkic peoples inherited R1a-Z93/Z94 from Indo-Iranians.

oriental
08-12-15, 00:25
Gurka Atla, are you a Turk or just a Spaniard playing a role to defame Asians by their looks? I know the Spanish did terrible things to Amerindians.

Tomenable
08-12-15, 00:54
In Central Asia today, both Turkic-speaking groups and Indo-European speaking groups have mixed West Eurasian and East Asian ancestries, but Turkic-speakers have visibly more of East Asian admixture (with few exceptions), while IE-speakers have visibly more of West Eurasian admixture (with no exceptions) - check this map; some Turkic groups are even majority-Mongoloid (= red):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TJCuJVizYSI/AAAAAAAAClY/KT6PkWSIZnM/s1600/centralasianmartinez.jpg

Gurka atla
08-12-15, 04:31
IMO they received R1a from Indo-Europeans, but what do you think about such an idea:

That Turkic peoples (and languages) emerged as a mixture of Mongolic and IE groups ???

As for Xiongnu, IMO they could mixed Mongoloid-Caucasoid, as these guys from your photos.

Even today in Mongolia there is some West Eurasian admixture, higher than in Japan or China.

Easternmost Indo-European groups also became partially Mongoloid as they mixed with the locals.


Is clear that R1a in Turks had predated the existence of any Turkic ethnicity/empire, so contact with Indo-European was far more earlier than previously though. For example people say Indian with R1a came from outside of India subcontinent perharps that is true but it also shows Indians with R1a predates any so called Aryan invasion


Chadic people have 72-95% R1b but they seem to have this marker before the existence of any western European ethnicity/identify was formed. This very clearly proves that haplogroup does no define racial heritage because these people are as black as any pure Sub-Saharan ethnic groups.


http://legacy.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p10166.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0weSbf0TsZ0




What variety of R1a do Turkic peoples have? As far as I know they have mostly R1a1a1b2a Z94.

We have an ancient DNA sample of Z94 from Poltavka culture, dated to 4940 - 4550 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltavka_culture

And if you check YFull website, they estimate the TMRCA of Z94 as around 4800 years ago:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

So unless YFull estimates are too young, that Z94 guy lived very close to the emergence of Z94.

That is not the last time we see Z94 in aDNA record, it appears later in all Indo-Iranian cultures.

We have Z93 / Z94 (and their derived subclades) in Sintashta, Srubna, Andronovo, and so on.

So in my opinion with 99% certainty Turkic peoples inherited R1a-Z93/Z94 from Indo-Iranians.


I'm not saying that it doesn't have a connection with with Indo-European but because it was 4500-5000 years ago it's more like a Turkic marker.


R1a1a1b2a Z94 is basically as Turkic marker.

If a group of Turkic invaders mixed with another group of Iranian , their marker would be the Turkic version of R1a rather than Indo-European ( although it originated from them it's long mutated to be a distinct Turkic marker )

Gurka atla
08-12-15, 04:40
Using another term for example if the mongoliod features show with yellow colour in your figure, using word han / hanoid is more logical, so Mongol people are mostly Hanoid with a little other features, but not Han people are mongoid.

It is like you are living in blue-green world and when you see firstly orange and then red, you are saying that red is varyant of orange. The main colour should be red. Orange is the mixed colour of red and yellow.

We have to eliminate historical naming and perspective for the truth.

I'm fine with the wording. I don't see Mongolians being any less Asian than others. If we have to change historical naming of Mongoloid than we must do the same for other races.

How would you describe African Americans who are genetically 21% White and 77% African-American? African American always refer themselves as Black but they never call themselves mixed but genetically they are mixed.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2ba7ok.png


You can even find Mongolians with green eyes , red hair, blue eyes, blonde hair

Although most Mongolians have only 2-3% caucasian admixture, some have 15%. These traits are also found in other Mongoloids in Central Asia and Siberia, and in th Hmong ( 0% Caucasian admixture ).
http://i66.tinypic.com/5bxzj6.jpg

Tomenable
08-12-15, 14:20
Indians with R1a predates any so called Aryan invasion

No, most of Indian R1a is also under Z93/Z94 - actually most is under even younger L657:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

It most certainly came with the Aryan migration ("invasion" is a wrong term) to India:


Sites of the Fedorovo type extend from Central Kazakhstan to the Yenisey. In
the Urals sites of the Alakul’ type are found while mixed types prevail in north
and central Kazakhstan; these formed as a result of the interaction between the
Alakul’ and the Fedorovo tribes. Differences are evident only between the
extreme sites of the typological scale. In linguistic terms, this continuous chain
of interrelated complexes can be described as the area of settlement of the
bearers of related dialects of the Indo-Iranian community.

The sites of the Fedorovo type demonstrate the closest resemblance to the
reconstructed culture of the Vedic Aryans: the existence of inhumation alongside
the prevailing rite of cremation, the rite of sati, specific types of ritual ceramics.
This provides good reason to suggest that the Fedorovan tribes were Indo-Aryans.

Three chronological stages are distinguished in the history of migration of the
steppe tribes to Central Asia and farther south.

Stage I: the 20th - 17th centuries BC: the appearance of cheek-pieces of the
Sintashta type on the Zeravshan in the grave of Zardcha-Halifa and a cult of the
horse from the Urals and later ceramics of the Petrovka type in the camp of
Tugai near the agricultural settlement of Sarazm. There is no evidence that they
reached India. According to the materials of Dzharkutan, the newcomers were
not numerous but they employed horses and chariots and established elite
dominance and adopted the culture of the BMAC. It is not known whether some
part of this population moved south and was among those who established the
BMAC contacts with Baluchistan.

And there is, of course, no data to support the theory that it was the early
Andronovans who destroyed the Harappan civilization and were guilty of
the massacre in Mohenjo-daro, as M. Wheeler (1968) assumed.

His opponents pointed out, first, that in other Harappan cities there
were no signs of violence and destruction. Secondly, according to the stratigraphy
of Harappa, there is a chronological hiatus between the downfall of this
city and Cemetery H. This leads to the conclusion that the collapse of the centers
of civilization was caused by ecological, social and political reasons (Bongard-
Levin and Il’in 1985).

The hypothesis of B. and R. Allchin (1973) is very probable: they thought
that pastoral tribes settled on the frontiers of the Harappan centers that were
experiencing a crisis because of ecological disasters and internal social and
economic catastrophies. The downfall of the cities cleared the way for the
newcomers, and they began to settle along the borders of oases. Yet we are not
speaking of hordes but isolated groups. Meanwhile a part of the indigenous
Harappan population moved east to Haryana and south to Gujarat where the
Harappan sites, as some scholars think, are younger than in the west.
Of extreme importance is the continuity in the culture of the Harappan and
Post-Harappan period on the periphery of Harappan territory (Joshi 1978). This
proves that the movement of the Aryan groups was slow and gradual. Initially
the newcomers and the aborigines settled near each other but not together.

Vedic sources clearly reflect the relations with the indigenous population.
Already in the 19th century the existence of borrowings from the local languages
was discovered. Now there is a large literature concerning this problem (Witzel
1999 and others).

There are very few loan-words in the Rigveda, but some names of tribes
included in the Aryan community and the names of several rulers and especially
priests are definitively non-Indo-Aryan. This means that the newcomers established
contacts with the elite of several adjacent tribes and a part of the priests
turned to their side and joined the new nobility (as we have seen, this process
began already in North Bactria).

In the Brāhmanas the number of loan-words from the Dravidian and Munda
languages increases, and there are new borrowed lexical fields: not only the
names of flora and fauna unknown to the Aryans, but also the words of economy
and everyday life.

This reflects the fact that the Aryans came into closer contact with ordinary
people of the land—craftsmen and farmers. This is the time when it becomes
legitimate to speak of the formation of a new culture—the culture of the people
of India, that formed as a result of an organic synthesis of the strange culture of
the Aryans mostly revealed in the language, and the aboriginal culture that
preserved the ancient Harappan traditions.

As G. Possehl (2002) has shown, the way of life essentially changed in India
in this period: small villages, the centers of agriculture and handcrafts that
became much degraded, replaced populous cities. Harappan writing, costly
jewels and seals disappeared, international trade stopped, but the old methods of
economy, tools, domestic animals, the traditions of house-building, the types of
means of transportation and, most importantly, the tradition of ceramic production
on a potter’s wheel were preserved. So the opinion of the Indian scholars
who emphasize the conservation of the Harappan traditions in the culture of the
subsequent periods is quite correct.

The Aryan contribution was the spread of horse and chariot, which is recorded
in the petroglyphs of India and the burial rite: the prevalence of cremation
with the existence of inhumation, the rite of sati, sacrifices of horses and
essentially new mythological beliefs and a social structure close to that of other
Indo-European peoples.

The second stage of the migration of pastoral tribes south was in the 16th–
14th centuries BC. People from the mixed Timber-grave-Alakul’ zone occupied
new territories and formed the original farming culture of Tazabagyab. The sites
of the Andronovan tribes are recorded across Central Asia. In the Tashkent and
Samarkand oases the Timber-grave population appears and comes into contact
with the Andronovans.

The Fedorovan tribes reached the Amu-Darya, took part in the formation of
the Tulkhar culture and actively interacted with the bearers of the farming
Bactria-Margiana culture.

Cultural contacts among the groups of the steppe population can be defined
as the integration of the bearers of related languages or dialects.
Interaction between farmers and stock-breeders was very diverse and
followed very different patterns (see part II). South Tadzhikistan and Uzbekistan
illustrate different patterns of contact: cultural influence: the conservation of
culture with the change of burial rite (the Tadzhik variant of the Andronovo
Fedorovo culture); integration: the formation of the new culture of Bishkent as a
result of the synthesis of the Andronovo Fedorovo culture and BMAC; elite
dominance migration and then integration: the penetration of the Andronovo
population in the BMAC and the probable subjugation of the indigenous
population, primarily in the ideological sphere. This pattern is of great interest; it
is displayed in the materials of the cemetery and especially the temple of
Dzharkutan.

These facts could be interpreted as a gradual aryanization of the
population of south Central Asia and the peaceful spread of the Indo-Aryan and
the Dardic-Nuristani languages in this region. If this model is correct, it agrees
well with the hypothesis of Th. Burrow (1973) that the Indo-Aryans first settled
in Central Asia and then migrated to India from there; the Iranians followed
them, which explains why the Iranian languages lack loan-words so numerous in
Sanskrit. The movement south to Afghanistan and India of the cultures that were
combinations (in different proportions) of Andronovan Fedorovan and BMAC
traits demonstrated the Kulturkugel model of Aryan migration suggested by J.
Mallory (1998).

The 13th–9th(8th) centuries BC was the period of the third stage of
migration. It was caused by the cultural transformation of the Eurasian steppes as
a result of internal development and ecological crises.

At that time the new cultural and economic type was becoming firmly
established: the mobile (yayla-type) stock breeding which implied the emergence
of riding. Migrations became more active: a part of the Timber-grave tribes
moved to the North Caucasus because of the crisis; they had already begun
appearing and settling in the Caucasus at an earlier time and adopted some
features of the material culture of the highlanders. M. N. Pogrebova (1977)
connects the migration of the descendants of the Timber-grave population from
the Caucasus to Iran with the appearance of West Iranians in Iran. Another way
might have lain through Central Asia.

This was an elite dominance migration with the subsequent adoption of
the aboriginal culture by the newcomers and of the Iranian language by
the indigenous population. Having come to Iran, the
West Iranians borrowed local grey-black ceramics and contributed to its wide
dissemination, as well as of the Western-Iranian language, for they roamed a lot
in the region. The Fedorovans moved to Central Asia and their territory in south
Siberia was occupied by the bearers of the Karasuk culture.

The other part of the Timber-grave population came to the Urals region and
moved to Central Asia along the Caspian Sea. The activation of cultural
connections, the mobility of population led to a considerable unification of
culture, which is graphically demonstrated by the emergence of a common type
of ceramics with applied roller. The departure of the Fedorovans and the
interaction of Timber-grave and Alakul’ tribes who were closely related not only
in their culture but also in their anthropology, especially in the contact zone of
the Urals, led to the replacement of the diversity of many individual variants that
existed in the High Bronze Age by the cultural uniformity of vast steppe
territories in the Final Bronze Age. This may have been connected with the
formation and the spread over the whole steppe zone of the proto-Eastern-Iranian
language.

Source (pages 471 - 473 out of 782):

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf

Tomenable
08-12-15, 14:26
I'm not saying that it doesn't have a connection with with Indo-European but because it was 4500-5000 years ago it's more like a Turkic marker.

R1a1a1b2a Z94 is basically as Turkic marker.

If you count people who have R1a-Z94 and speak Indo-Iranian, and then people who have R1a-Z94 and speak Turkic languages, you will find out that Turks with R1a-Z94 are outnumbered several times even without counting Indians with R1a-Z94.


If a group of Turkic invaders mixed with another group of Iranian, their marker would be the Turkic version of R1a rather than Indo-European ( although it originated from them it's long mutated to be a distinct Turkic marker)

If you go deep enough into subclades then yes, you will find some Turkich-specific sub-branches as well, sure.

But generally Indo-Iranians and Turkic peoples share similar variants of R1a.

And we know that Turkic expansion was later, and largely assimilated previous Iranian inhabitants.

Tomenable
08-12-15, 14:32
Chadic people have 72-95% R1b but they seem to have this marker before the existence of any western European ethnicity/identify was formed.

But Chadic people have R1b-V88, which is a completely different branch than Western European R1b-L51 - check:

By contrast, Indo-Iranians and Turkic peoples share mostly the same branch of R1a, Z93:

Some Turkic groups (e.g. Bashkirs) have quite a lot of R1b-M478 (left side of the graph), which is not under M269:

This R1b-M478 might be originally Turkic, but R1a-Z93 is inherited from Indo-Iranians:

http://s15.postimg.org/3p6zzfty3/R1_Tree.png

http://s15.postimg.org/3p6zzfty3/R1_Tree.png

Tomenable
08-12-15, 14:45
haplogroup does no define racial heritage

Y-DNA is just one chromosome and it tells just about one branch of ancestors (direct paternal ancestors). Better in defining racial heritage is autosomal DNA, which covers all of ancestors (including women and male ancestors other than father's, father's, father...):

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA

"Autosomal DNA is a term used in genetic genealogy to describe DNA which is inherited from the autosomal chromosomes. An autosome is any of the numbered chromosomes, as opposed to the sex chromosomes. Humans have 22 pairs of autosomes and one pair of sex chromosomes (the X chromosome and the Y chromosome). Autosomes are numbered roughly in relation to their sizes. That is, Chromosome 1 has approximately 2,800 genes, while chromosome 22 has approximately 750 genes."

Some Y lines are much more successful than others because people like Genghis Khan or Niall of the Nine Hostages had plenty of sons with multiple women. Today in Ireland and in the USA a few million people have Y-DNA lineage of Niall of the Nine Hostages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_of_the_Nine_Hostages

If some very powerful man lived a very long time ago, and had a lot of sons - and if we assume that his sons also had a lot of sons (because if their father was powerful then we can assume that many of his children and grandchildren also had a lot of inherited power for, at least several generations), then it is quite possible, that today millions of people carry their Y-DNA lineages.

According to one estimate, population of the entire world 8000 years ago was only 5 million people:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/the-axial-age-world-population/

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/12/World_population_growth_li.png

This 5 million is a rather low estimate (some other estimates put it at ca. 10 million at that time).

But 50 males (assuming that someone had 100 children at that time) is 0.002% out of 2,5 million.

But what if someone 8000 years ago had 50 sons, and each of his sons had on average 25 sons?

That would be 1250 grandsons or already 0.05% out of 2,5 million males (1/2 of 5 million were men).

Today 0.05% of the world's male population would be 1,750,000, in the one - two million range.

But it seems that some of males who lived 6000 years ago have many millions of descendants today.

Gurka atla
08-12-15, 17:06
No, most of Indian R1a is also under Z93/Z94 - actually most is under even younger L657:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

It most certainly came with the Aryan migration ("invasion" is a wrong term) to India:



Source (pages 471 - 473 out of 782):

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/30/items/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranians/TheOriginOfTheIndo-iranian.pdf


There was no such thing as " Aryan migration " , it was migration of Indo-European speakers and Aryan is not a racial terms, it means "noble" .

R1a in India predate the existence of any ethnic group. Also R1a in India were clearly not European, because Indian are DNA mixture of 2 large components. They are West Asian and Weddoids.

Gurka atla
08-12-15, 17:10
But Chadic people have R1b-V88, which is a completely different branch than Western European R1b-L51 - check:

By contrast, Indo-Iranians and Turkic peoples share mostly the same branch of R1a, Z93:

Some Turkic groups (e.g. Bashkirs) have quite a lot of R1b-M478 (left side of the graph), which is not under M269:

This R1b-M478 might be originally Turkic, but R1a-Z93 is inherited from Indo-Iranians:

http://s15.postimg.org/3p6zzfty3/R1_Tree.png

http://s15.postimg.org/3p6zzfty3/R1_Tree.png


But my point is it predates the existence of Turkic language/empire was formed.



Pazyryk culture ( 600 BC ) Males were R1a part Mongoloid, females were Europoid.


" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "


http://bks0.books.google.co.uk/books?id=LAwuAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE72hDP14IoK15eHuSP9yEPt5NELMRMEpd3ydYpcp z20cwdRComgrp_V63PnxdIFr2WZ9PVius6Hl6lmmaiGI8hJbJm 7OKh2G_bcqL-YoOPd4JFp1F4g



" Though almost 3000 miles separate the Scythian Empire from Pazyryk, both belonged to a world shared by peoples of different origins and languages (in one burial theman is of Mongoloid, the woman of Indo-European type) with a common burials of Europoid females and part Mongoloid males. "

oriental
08-12-15, 21:29
If one looks at the Y DNA tree all non-Africans are from C Haplogroup. Just one branch remained that identifies the mongols. However, mongols are composed of many tribes. Genghis Khan is the one who unified them all and the mongols were formed. It is said he had red hair and green eyes. All non-Africans are C Haplogroup at the very top. The later adaptations are to local environment, diet and customs or culture.

Tomenable
08-12-15, 21:41
Haplogroup C1a also could be found in ancient DNA from Europe until Neolithic times.

For example prehistoric Kostenki14 who lived in Russia at the Volga River had C1a.

It has not disappeared completely, it seems.

For example in a sample of 234 people from Halle an der Saale, one (0,43%) had C.

Tomenable
08-12-15, 21:52
There was no such thing as "Aryan migration", it was migration of Indo-European speakers and Aryan is not a racial terms, it means "noble"

Aryan at first meant "companion", not noble (it started to mean "noble" later). This is how Indo-Iranians described themselves.

In addition the Indian branch of Indo-Iranian languages and peoples is called Indo-Aryan languages (and Indo-Aryan peoples).

So using a term "Aryan migration" is not incorrect. You can as well use a term "Indo-Aryan migration".


Pazyryk culture (600 BC) Males were R1a part Mongoloid, females were Europoid.

Pazyryk culture were people who spoke Iranian languages - not Turkic. What was their physical type is a different issue.

But it is IMO impossible that males and females of the same reproductive communicy can be so different "racially".

Maybe they are drawing conclusions based on a very small sample of people.


R1a in India predate the existence of any ethnic group.

Ethnic groups exist as long as humans do, so how can it "predate the existence of any ethnic group"?

The first ethnic group which expanded out of Africa, was the "Out-of-Africa Tribe" - check:

The society of our “out of Africa” ancestors (I)
The migrant warriors that colonized the world:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104569/

The “Out of Africa Tribe” (II):
Paleolithic warriors with big canoes and protective weapons:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656025/

Culture Out of Africa:

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm


Also R1a in India were clearly not European

Who said they were European? R1a-Z93 split from R1a-Z283 somewhere near the Ural Mountains, it seems.

At least in Kapova Cave in the Ural they found a burial of a man with Z645, which is ancestral to both Z93 and Z283.


because Indian are DNA mixture of 2 large components. They are West Asian and Weddoids.

A lot of North Indian ancestry is from the Eurasian steppe as well, because that's where Indo-Aryans came from.

By the Eurasian steppe in this case I mean mostly Central Asia, Southern Russia and the Ural Region.

West Asia is to the south and to the south-west of Central Asia, and that's not where Indo-Aryans came from:

Central Asia according to 3 different definitions:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Central_Asia_borders.png

Tomenable
08-12-15, 21:54
The Pazyryk culture is Indo-European but many of the burials are between Half Mongoloid men with Europoid females, the males seems to be R1a. The R1a in Turkic could have predated Turkic ethnicity and languages rather than recieving from Indo-Europeans.

It's only 1 Western Eurasian male. The others 2 were found to be a male with haplogroup C3 and mtDNA D4, and another with D4.

Three Xiongnu elite

1 Xiongnu R1a and U2e1
1 Xiongnu C3 and D4
1 Xiognu with D4.

I know that one was Caucasoid and 2 were Mongoloid. But you claimed, that the one with R1a was Mongoloid - which isn't true.

The R1a elite burial was that of a West Eurasian male, while one of the other two elite burials was that of a C3 Mongoloid male.

This pattern can also be observed in other burials of racially mixed communities of that region in which C and Q haplogroups correlate with more Mongoloid features and darker hair & eyes, while R1a with more Caucasoid features and lighter hair & eyes.

In terms of mitochondrial (mtDNA) female haplogroups, there was also a mix of West Eurasian and East Asian lineages.

oriental
08-12-15, 21:57
That is the point we can't define C Haplogroup as phenotypes developed over thousands of years of adaptation. The original phenotype would be African if one morphs African with current groups that would be how East Asians, Mid East, Siberian and Europeans looked after the Ice Age. There are software that does that. Models of ancient people show African descent. The refined features developed over thousands of years.

Tomenable
09-12-15, 04:26
So - what do you think - were original Proto-Turks more like Turks from Siberia, or more like Turks from Central Asia?

Today, there are considerable "racial" differences between these two groups (different proportions of Caucasoid/Mongoloid):

http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png

http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 04:58
If one looks at the Y DNA tree all non-Africans are from C Haplogroup. Just one branch remained that identifies the mongols. However, mongols are composed of many tribes. Genghis Khan is the one who unified them all and the mongols were formed. It is said he had red hair and green eyes. All non-Africans are C Haplogroup at the very top. The later adaptations are to local environment, diet and customs or culture.

But than again Green eyes, red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes is nothing unsual for the Mongolians, Kazakhs, Nenets, Tuvans, Selkups. It even exists in the Hmong population where caucasian admixture is 0%

Mongolians
http://i66.tinypic.com/5bxzj6.jpg


Kazakhs and Tuvans
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Asia/Kazakhwithlightcoloredhairandoreyeskz.jpg

Nenets
http://img.index.hu/cikkepek/kultur/galeria/me18.jpg

Selkups
http://i59.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1017/e6/d26fe48b5cadc55bad664f6fabd9cee6.jpg

Hmong
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s283/shortypai/paisdigital043.jpg

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 05:01
If one looks at the Y DNA tree all non-Africans are from C Haplogroup. Just one branch remained that identifies the mongols. However, mongols are composed of many tribes. Genghis Khan is the one who unified them all and the mongols were formed. It is said he had red hair and green eyes. All non-Africans are C Haplogroup at the very top. The later adaptations are to local environment, diet and customs or culture.

However these traits are nothing unsual for Central Asian and Siberian Mongoloids. You can find Hmong with similar traits even though they have 0% Caucasian admixture. So Genghis Khan would have look like a Mongoloid with light traits.

Mongolians on average have 3-5% Caucasian admixture but some have 10-15%.

http://i66.tinypic.com/5bxzj6.jpg


Besides the drawing of Odegei Khan, the Chinese draw him very Mongoloid

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 05:07
Haplogroup C1a also could be found in ancient DNA from Europe until Neolithic times.

For example prehistoric Kostenki14 who lived in Russia at the Volga River had C1a.

It has not disappeared completely, it seems.

For example in a sample of 234 people from Halle an der Saale, one (0,43%) had C.

Haplogroup C is a complicated and diverse marker.

C3 is typical of Mongolic speakers
C2 is typical of Melanesian Black Papuan
C4 is typical of Australian aborigines
C5 is typical of North Indian sub-tribes

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 05:24
Aryan at first meant "companion", not noble (it started to mean "noble" later). This is how Indo-Iranians described themselves.

In addition the Indian branch of Indo-Iranian languages and peoples is called Indo-Aryan languages (and Indo-Aryan peoples).

So using a term "Aryan migration" is not incorrect. You can as well use a term "Indo-Aryan migration".



Pazyryk culture were people who spoke Iranian languages - not Turkic. What was their physical type is a different issue.

But it is IMO impossible that males and females of the same reproductive communicy can be so different "racially".

Maybe they are drawing conclusions based on a very small sample of people.



Ethnic groups exist as long as humans do, so how can it "predate the existence of any ethnic group"?

The first ethnic group which expanded out of Africa, was the "Out-of-Africa Tribe" - check:

The society of our “out of Africa” ancestors (I)
The migrant warriors that colonized the world:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3104569/

The “Out of Africa Tribe” (II):
Paleolithic warriors with big canoes and protective weapons:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3656025/

Culture Out of Africa:

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture.htm



Who said they were European? R1a-Z93 split from R1a-Z283 somewhere near the Ural Mountains, it seems.

At least in Kapova Cave in the Ural they found a burial of a man with Z645, which is ancestral to both Z93 and Z283.



A lot of North Indian ancestry is from the Eurasian steppe as well, because that's where Indo-Aryans came from.

By the Eurasian steppe in this case I mean mostly Central Asia, Southern Russia and the Ural Region.

West Asia is to the south and to the south-west of Central Asia, and that's not where Indo-Aryans came from:

Central Asia according to 3 different definitions:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Central_Asia_borders.png



My point is R1a have many different variations and mutations. So one cannot really say Turkic R1a is the same as Indo-Europeans because it long intermixed with different ethnic group and mutated into it's own unique marker ( predating the Turkic ethnicity ). North Indians indo-aryan ancestry are derived from to the area of Afghanistan-Pakistan and they had already intermixed with the Weddoid/Dravidian like people. All Afghan, Pakistan, North Indians have weddoid admixture, Afghan having the lowest 10-15% while Pakistan and North Indians have 45-55%.

History is far too complexed. The people who migrated to India would have still looked like modern day Pakistani and east Afghans, they wouldn't have looked like some nordic type people.


A very broad definition of Central Asia. North India in South Asia bothers next to Tibet ( Sino-Tibetan speakers ) Pakistan not central Asia. While Pakistan bothers next to Afghanistan, Tibet, North India. Afghanistan is considered a South Asian country, sometimes in tge Middle east but realistlically they were inbetween Middle east, South Asia, Central Asia.

China and Tibet are sino-Tibetan, Mongolia are Mongolic speakers.

And this region Qinghai are Tibetan speakers rather than Han Chinese

http://www.chinatoday.com/china-map/location_maps/qinghai_location.gif
https://tibettruth.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/map.png

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 05:34
So - what do you think - were original Proto-Turks more like Turks from Siberia, or more like Turks from Central Asia?

Today, there are considerable "racial" differences between these two groups (different proportions of Caucasoid/Mongoloid):

http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png

http://s9.postimg.org/qfaoixfsv/Human_clusters.png

Most likely original Turks were from Siberia. And than they mixed with Indo-Europeans of Central Asia ( both from Turkic and Mongol-Turkic invasion ).

Anatolian were mixed with the Turkic and Turkified Indo-Europeans to become the modern Turkish people.

Gurka atla
09-12-15, 06:01
I know that one was Caucasoid and 2 were Mongoloid. But you claimed, that the one with R1a was Mongoloid - which isn't true.

The R1a elite burial was that of a West Eurasian male, while one of the other two elite burials was that of a C3 Mongoloid male.

This pattern can also be observed in other burials of racially mixed communities of that region in which C and Q haplogroups correlate with more Mongoloid features and darker hair & eyes, while R1a with more Caucasoid features and lighter hair & eyes.

In terms of mitochondrial (mtDNA) female haplogroups, there was also a mix of West Eurasian and East Asian lineages.

They found only 1 western eurasian male, what about his descendants and others with R1a? surely they were mixed with Mongoloid. The Xiongnu should have significant R1a since Xiongnu also have 11% European mtDNA but all they found was 1 western eurasian male. And I'm curious, do they even say he is pure western Eurasian based on genetics or anthropology ? because even the Scythians were already mixed but with small degrees of Mongoloid admixture despite their western eurasian Y-DNA and mtDNA

Kyrgyz have 63% R1a and 42% western Eurasian mtDNA but are genetically 68% - 72% Mongoloid as anyone can clearly see from that autosomal DNA you provided.

Surely there is a at least some Kyrgyz with R1a with western eurasian mtDNA and still look Mongoloid.

http://www.morselt.eu/galleries/Id450_Kyrgyzstan/photos/FM2005-CentraalAzie-134.jpg
http://redkiteyurts.com/wp-content/uploads/3kyr_lrg.jpg
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/international/foust%20dec1%20p.jpg

Boreas
09-12-15, 13:30
I'm fine with the wording. I don't see Mongolians being any less Asian than others.

Again I will use Sardinian Example. Which ethnic group can give you a example Sardinian, Greeks in Crete, People of Sicily, South Italy? If you take the reference of South Italian as a mediterraean race, Turkey and other North West Asian countries will be more Mediterranean, in Sicily case, Egypt can be seem as more mediterraean. But the truth just can be found with Sardinians.

but whatever :grin:

MOESAN
10-12-15, 20:29
However these traits are nothing unsual for Central Asian and Siberian Mongoloids. You can find Hmong with similar traits even though they have 0% Caucasian admixture. So Genghis Khan would have look like a Mongoloid with light traits.

Mongolians on average have 3-5% Caucasian admixture but some have 10-15%.

http://i66.tinypic.com/5bxzj6.jpg


Besides the drawing of Odegei Khan, the Chinese draw him very Mongoloid

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg

Before other proofs I still think light pigmentation for eyes and hairs is an 'europoid' trait yet not universal among 'europoids';
the 0% of something in rough autosomals admixtures is not the proof of 0% true admixture - the small numbers or alleles pairs involved in pigmentation can pass 'incognito' through rough estimations? all the way the unique way to know is a peer analysis of the chromosomes segments concerned by pigmentation (for what we know) as it has been done for red hairs among Jamaicans, which showed being caused by genes in European inherited segments.
WHo knows: maybe it will be discovered other mutations among typica mongoloids? But I wait serious results before changing mind.

MOESAN
10-12-15, 20:49
@Gurka
You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

&: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.

Sile
10-12-15, 21:34
@Gurka
You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

&: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.

asian eyes with red hair
https://aratta.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/the-genetic-causes-ethnic-origins-and-history-of-red-hair/

most populace people with red hair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=udmurts&biw=1484&bih=763&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAk9GyhNLJAhWBQpQKHWzVA5oQsAQIKQ

MOESAN
11-12-15, 01:48
asian eyes with red hair
https://aratta.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/the-genetic-causes-ethnic-origins-and-history-of-red-hair/

most populace people with red hair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=udmurts&biw=1484&bih=763&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAk9GyhNLJAhWBQpQKHWzVA5oQsAQIKQ


THanks for kind communication of rough compilation texts plus some interesting pictures; nothing new to me.
they are interesting in that they show Udmurts have more europoid traits than mongoloid traits as a whole, and perhaps an old undifferantiated type at play too (the proto-uralic type of some scientists) - the point is that there are several mutations favorizing red hairs and that the three commonest are all centered in Europe among today 98% 'europoid' types; have we a typical "red hair mutation" specific for North Central Asia or East Asia? it could help.
when population mate one together, none has the property of the mutation, but different percentages can help to show the direction of flow and explain history.
Buona notte

Gurka atla
11-12-15, 05:57
Before other proofs I still think light pigmentation for eyes and hairs is an 'europoid' trait yet not universal among 'europoids';
the 0% of something in rough autosomals admixtures is not the proof of 0% true admixture - the small numbers or alleles pairs involved in pigmentation can pass 'incognito' through rough estimations? all the way the unique way to know is a peer analysis of the chromosomes segments concerned by pigmentation (for what we know) as it has been done for red hairs among Jamaicans, which showed being caused by genes in European inherited segments.
WHo knows: maybe it will be discovered other mutations among typica mongoloids? But I wait serious results before changing mind.


Here are ethnic groups who have blonde hair and brown hair but yet still have 0% Caucasian admixture

Australian aborigines with blonde/brown hair

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/52/30/0c5230067b9921c7825d46f313cdb729.jpg

Solomon ( <----- one of highest percent of blonde )

http://mykeshinihair.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/blonde-hair-dark-skin.jpg

Hmong with red hair, blue eyes and blonde hair

(red hair )
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s283/shortypai/paisdigital043.jpg

(blonde hair )
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52010&d=1415065935

South Amerindian tribes Kuna and other Panama Amerindian

http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mamhomRVPa1r8vrhxo1_1280.jpg
http://www.zaucke.com/wp-content/uploads/albino-3824.jpg

Gurka atla
11-12-15, 06:05
@Gurka
You say yourself Miongols have some degrees of 'caucasian' DNA and this is enough to explain the rare cases of light pigmentation which is not "not-unusual" as you say. To solve the problem it would be possible to make states of light pigmentations %s and 'caucasian' DNA %s ???

&: the female of your post #35 is far to be pure mongloid, according to my criteria

Thanks for the picture. I 'm not far to think that the first turkic speakers of Altai were (at this stage of the language birth) a predominently 'mongoloid' group but they had already a slight 'caucasian' admixture, which one augmented with time and colonizations towards West.

Their caucasian admixture is too low. While I agree the small degree of caucasian admixture could be most likely the reason why these Mongolians have these light traits is also too strange....because of their extremely full Mongoloid appearance.

Usually light hair and light eye traits on Half Asian / Half European tend to look more caucasoid but these Kazakhs, Mongolians, Nenets look either full Mongoloid or predominant Mongoloid.


Here is a 50% Chinese, 50% New Zealander white.

Despite the fact how she looks caucasoid, she has black hair with green eyes

http://41.media.tumblr.com/8eaab61f619eddb4ddaf086dc1feb45d/tumblr_nckr0vK6fJ1sbzfnjo1_500.jpg


Others like this 50% Chinese, 50% French have green eyes , brown hair but still look more caucasoid than Mongoloid

https://earthenergyreader.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/600full-mylene-jampanoi.jpg

Boreas
11-12-15, 06:30
Anatolian were mixed with the Turkic and Turkified Indo-Europeans to become the modern Turkish people.

You said well

LeBrok
11-12-15, 07:52
http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mamhomRVPa1r8vrhxo1_1280.jpg

These guys might have albino mutation, rare but happens. If they live in South America they need to stay out of sun or they will get skin cancer very fast. Guy on the right has already some suspicious spots on his arms.

Tomenable
11-12-15, 13:51
By the way, we should clarify who were the "original Turks". The Turkicness of the Xiongnu & Huns is sometimes disputed.

The Tiele people, described in Chinese chronicles, were Turks for sure (they lived in Siberia to the north of Mongolia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiele_people)
They emerged after the disintegration of the Xiongnu confederation, which could be multi-ethnic (including Turks).

The Turkic part of the Xiongnu could be descended from the Dinglings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingling

The Huns who invaded Europe around year 375 AD (and remained powerful in the continent roughly for the next century) are believed to had been descended from the Xiongnu - or from some specific branch of the Xiongnu.

Another multi-ethnic confederation were the Xianbei. From the Xianbei descended the Rouran (who are sometimes hypothesized to be the ancestors of the Avars, who invaded Europe in 561 AD, 200 years after the Huns, and also remained powerful for around a century), as well as Mongolic-speaking tribes and the Khitans, who spoke a language distantly related to Mongoloic languages.

The first Kagan (ruler) of the Rouran, was an ethnic Chinese, who had before served as a mercenary cavalryman for the Xianbei.

The name "Rouran" is of Chinese origin and means "swarming worms", perhaps reflecting the multi-ethnic character of that "horde".

These connections of Xiongnu -> Huns and Rouran -> Avars are based, among other things, on similarity of names.

What language the Avars spoke as their main language is also disputed - it could be even Iranic. But their origins were mixed.

Between the Huns (375+ AD) and the Avars (561+ AD) there was also Slavic expansion (which continued after 561 AD as well), but where did Slavs come from is uncertain, probably not directly from the steppe because they were only semi-nomadic.

The Magyars (Hungarians) - who were the next major ivaders from the steppe after Avars - spoke an Uralic language, something unusual for a steppe tribe. They were most likely of mixed origin, part of their ancestry being Turkic and perhaps also part Iranic.

Ugric-speaking ancestors of Magyars adopted a nomadic lifestyle after coming into contact with Turkic and Iranic steppe tribes.

MOESAN
11-12-15, 16:56
@Gurka:

OK for blond Southeastern Asians of Paleo block (some Pacific islands as Papooslike people and Australia Aborigenes: I had forgot them, sorry!
I'm curious to know what mutation caused this, an indepandant one: the most probable. But the between area of Asia before reaching Eurasia show almost NO such partly or completely hair-eyes depigmented people and the phenomenon increase gradually with ancien 'europoids' contact in Steppes.
concerning Spouthamerindians of the forest, the people you show are albinos, not blonds - the picture of the girl: his light red hair seem articificially coloured upon an albinos white hair. the difference between albinos and blonds is that that the blonding mutation affects solely partially the skin colour when albinism cause NO pigmentation at all.

concerning your second post: 1) children dark blonds became rarely true blond adults (but it surely shows maybe a lightening mutation at a heterozygotic level).
2) in crossings between A and B population as you know, the chromosomes and even the genes are exchanged between chomosomes (crossing over process) by the two "donors" ancestral populations and you cannot wait that every A trait would stay with all other A traits, the same for B traits: the result is a "mixture" and the dominantly european featured with dark complexion and the dominantly east-asian features with lighter complexion don't prove anything concerning the original distributions of traits among ancestral populations before crossing: even among "blacks" (for American criteria, that'sto say: no value on this field: for them, if you are not "anglo" or north European, your are a kind of "black") of the USA you finds sometimes a blond or a red haired man: for I know at this date, NO blond or red population (even partly) in SS Africa before colonization- North Africa: it's an other game...
thanks all the way for pictures concerning people I was poorly aware of. Good week-end in debating forum.

Tomenable
11-12-15, 16:58
Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.

MOESAN
11-12-15, 17:14
@Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.

Gurka atla
11-12-15, 19:08
Australo-Melanesians sometimes have blond hair, but they have their own mutation for it. There are a few mutations for blond hair in Western Eurasia and they are different. While these South Amerindians are - as LeBrok wrote - simply Albinos.

Albinos have no pigment anywhere, also in hair, so they appear as blonde or even white-haired.

Such Albinos can be found even in Sub-Saharan Africa as well.

As for Hmongs - I think they could inherit their blond hair either from the West or from Australo-Melanesians.

One needs to check which mutations for blond hair they have.

As for that Hmong woman with red hair, that color looks artificial to me, probably it is dyed hair.


The Hmong spoke of their ancestors having blonde, brown red hair but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.
That hair doesn't look dyed to me but that's my opinon.


Here is a Hmong man with reddish/brunette like hair
http://cdn.gogetfunding.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/usersphoto/126523/2014-10-09_0526.png

Here is a Hmong girl with slightly reddish/brunette like hair
http://images.travelpod.com/tw_slides/ta00/afb/9d4/black-hmong-children-sapa.jpg
http://www.haivenu-vietnam.com/travel-blogs/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Flower-Hmong-girl-in-Muong-Khuong.jpg

Gurka atla
11-12-15, 19:12
@Tomenable: thanks for useful clarification.
IT seems a lot of Steppes migration or invasion envolved almost everytime a sort of confederation of diverse tribes, sometimes (or everytime? I don't know), implying hyerarchy
As you evocate AVars, their cimeteries in Hungarian plain contain several human types, with social stratification (the uppest: 'mongoloids' of 3 types, 1 'sinid' and a 1 from Baykal region and the typical almost long faced 'mongol' type) - East Asian high placed in society but low number: about 19% according to estimations always debatable.
first nomadic Hungarians showed too a mix, even more europeanlike, where appeared types of South Central Asia of ancient Iranic and Tukicized iranoc elements.

For Huns I don't know but surely crossed too in some level.


Anthropological evidence[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pannonian_Avars&action=edit&section=4)]

Anthropological (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropological) research has revealed few skeletons with Mongoloid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid)-type features, although there was continuing cultural influence from the Eurasian nomadic steppe. The late Avar period shows more hybridization, resulting in higher frequencies of Euro-Mongoloids (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Euro-Mongoloids&action=edit&redlink=1).[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#cite_note-24) Mongoloid and Euro-Mongoloid types compose about one-third of the total population of the Avar graves of the eighth century.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#cite_note-25) According to Pál Lipták (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1l_Lipt%C3%A1k) the early Avar anthropological material was almost exclusively Europoid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europoid) in the 7th century, while grave-goods indicated Middle and Central Asian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian) parallels.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#cite_note-F.C3.B3thi-26) On the other hand, cemeteries dated for the 8th century contained Mongoloid elements among others. He analysed population of theDanube-Tisza midland region (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danube-Tisza_midland_region&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Avar period and found that 80% of them showed Europoid characteristics.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#cite_note-F.C3.B3thi-26) The Turanid was most common Europoid type among the Avars graves. Pál Lipták (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A1l_Lipt%C3%A1k) (1955) the Turanid type is a Caucasoid type with significant Mongoloid admixture, arising from the mixture of the Andronovo type of Europoid features and the Oriental (Mongoloid).[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Avars#cite_note-27)

Yeah, the Central Asian nomads seems very complicated. There are Turks, Turkified Indo-European, mix breeds

They race includes Mongoloid , Mongoloid-Europoid, Europoid with slight Mongoloid admixture, Europoid with some Mongoloid admixture,

Tomenable
11-12-15, 21:28
but every autosomal DNA genetic shows they all have 0% west eurasian / caucasian admixture or Melanesian admixture.

That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE. EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:


86.40% European
12.72% Amerindian
0.87% African
0.01% Asian

In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.

Gurka atla
12-12-15, 11:30
That's because the admixture was a long time ago. If something was a long time ago, it will show 0% today using methods that they use for such calculations. For example, we are all from Africa but calculations show 0% African admixture. But in case of Paleolithic specimens, like Kostenki14, Ush-Ishtim or Oase - calculatorsshow at least few percent of African admixture for them.

That's because those Paleolithic specimens lived much closer in time to the Out-of-Africa event than we do.

Remember that all of these autosomal calculators only examine similarities to modern populations, not to ancient ones.

Anyway - they could acquire these traits from ANE (Ancient North Eurasians). Remember, that Sardinians score as "ideal Caucasoids", but they are dark-pigmented. In my opinion light pigmentation of hair could be from descendants of ANE. EHG were ANE-admixed and had many light traits. All Indo-Europeans from the steppe were ANE-admixed and had many light-pigmented people.

By the way, in Dienekes' globe4 calculator, Loschbour WHG hunter (who lived in Western Europe) scored:


86.40% European
12.72% Amerindian
0.87% African
0.01% Asian

In globe4 he scored 13% Native American, but he did not score any ANE in calculators which actually include ANE.

In general not all calculators are good, scores always depend on what populations are actually being compared.

The sun's effect. Have you ever heard of beach hair? Pigmentation wise, hair becomes lighter. It also becomes drier and damaged, which results in further bleaching. Like I said again, Hmong score 0% Caucasian/ western Eurasian admixture, we can see the same development in the Melanesian population and other Southeast Asian population.


Besides it seems ridicolous to claim these Hmong blondes ( with 0% of any Caucasian phenotypes ) is due to western Eurasian admixture while we have many full blooded caucasians who have black hair and other Eurasians with black hair.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyhvydVN4U1rorrqno1_400.jpg

You can see the same effect on other southeast Asian ethnic groups ( NON- hmong )

Blondes/brown
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9bw3kETp01rsqusgo1_1280.png

Red hair
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/2526662631_c23d907179.jpg

Tomenable
12-12-15, 13:31
These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5204/5240674388_2892aa7715_z.jpg

But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

"Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

"Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282
(http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282)
Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/)http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_%28mtDNA%29

Gurka atla
12-12-15, 15:30
These Hmongs mostly have just childhood blondness (while when they become adults, their hair is getting dark).

However, I have found also one photo of an adult Hmong with rather light hair:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5204/5240674388_2892aa7715_z.jpg

But Hmongs have South-East Asian origin, so their variant of blonde may be the same as Australo-Melanesian:

"Southeast Asian origins of five Hill Tribe populations and correlation of genetic to linguistic relationships inferred with genome-wide SNP data":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/

"Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes":

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282
(http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0024282)
Also, it seems that Hmongs have some mtDNA haplogroup W, which is not typically East Asian, but rather West-South Asian and European:

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3021592/)http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_W_%28mtDNA%29

Some? they only found 1 out of 537, so it's like 0.18% < far less than one percent

I seriously doubt that these blonde/red/brown hair Hmong is due 0.18% ( Soutwest Asian marker), even the Burmese and Thais have 5-20% West Eurasian / South Asian mtDNA marker and you don't see any of them with light hair traits and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids with far less blondes and brown hair than Hmong.


Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.


http://oi64.tinypic.com/2mi5fs3.jpg




Here are more light haired Hmong adults

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac21/lnou07/34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n.jpg
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac21/lnou07/34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n-1.jpg

LeBrok
12-12-15, 17:27
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac21/lnou07/34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n.jpg

Wow, they are like "Irish" white.

Tomenable
12-12-15, 19:45
Autsomal DNA of Hmong is 100% Mongoloid/East Eurasian.

K=4 is a very low resolution (just 4 components), so in most comparisons it cannot be very useful anyway.

But the thing is that it doesn't show what you claim it does - Japanese scored 100% orange, which is East Asian.

By contrast - Hmong scored mostly purple, which is Southeast Asian, and therefore not pure Mongoloid.

South-East Asians emerged as the result of mixing of North-East Asians with Australo-Melanesians and Negritos.

So your data actually proves my point that they can have the same variant of blond as Solomon Islanders.

Tomenable
12-12-15, 20:02
and besides mtDNA W is a haplotype that is so prominent in the dark, brown swarthy caucasoids

Actually no - at least in Europe W tends to be common in areas where blond hair is also common. The correlation is not perfect (for example it does not work for Hungary), but you can't say that W is more common in dark-pigmented populations:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png

Light hair in Europe:

http://s24.postimg.org/ry0a3qzhx/Light_Hair.jpg

Light eyes and fair hair in Europe:

http://s13.postimg.org/6y8vudnwn/Alleles.png

==========================================

As for possible Turkic / East Asian admixture in Europe and possible links with some phenotypes.

Here is a map by Maciamo showing the frequency of East Asian/North Asian mtDNA haplogroups:

Map of East/North Asian mtDNA in Europe (LINK) (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png)

I've noticed, that the area with the highest % of East/North Asian mtDNA in Poland, coincides with area with the highest frequency of Lapponoid phenotype / anthropological type according to Stanislav Górny, "Anthropological Territories of Poland". Górny divided Poland into three territories - southern with prevalence (plurality) of Lapponoid type, central with prevalence of Sub-Nordic type (which is basically brachycephalized / broader-headed version of Nordic) and northern with prevalence of Nordic type:

http://s13.postimg.org/rsg4rjzgn/S_Gorny.png

In Hungary on the other hand, so called Turanid types (TUR) are quite common:

(as I wrote, the Ugric-speaking Magayrs mixed with Turkic tribes once they settled in the steppe):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vuz_fhzkQA

Tomenable
12-12-15, 20:15
Another video - I didn't know that such very Asian looking people can also be found in Hungary:
(they are obviously rare because most of Hungarians I know look clearly European - but still):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWPCVMEsyeM

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-Q9rAieWU

Are all of these people actually ethnic Hungarians, or are some of them recent immigrants?

=======================================

In Scandinavia you can also find people who look mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid, or even genuinely East Asian - like singer Bjork:

https://changesoft.co/pictures/bjork/bjork-singer-wallpaper-wallpaper-9b9c6a29f95dda29b5357f9f2b53d288-big-66375.jpg

People speculated that she might be descended from Amerindians who were - supposedly - brought back to Iceland by Vikings.

But this story sounds like a legend - and actually in Scandinavia "proper" there are also many people who look similar, and frequency of East/North Asian mtDNA is actually higher in - for example - Sweden, than in Iceland (see the map above).

There is of course also Y-DNA haplogroup Q, which might be ultimately from East Asians, even if assimilated early on by PIEs:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

One sample of Q was found among steppe people of Khvalynsk culture - perhaps an Eastern visitor to Indo-European homeland?

Tomenable
12-12-15, 20:30
One think that is very peculiar in Sweden (at least from my observations):

A lot of Swedes are light blonde-haired, but also a lot of Swedes are very black-haired. On the other hand, intermediate hair colours are not so frequent - not as frequent as in many other countries with both fewer blondes and fewer black-haired people.

By intermediate I mean darker shades of blonde and various shades of brown.

Among Poles, for example, intermediate colours are most frequent, while very light blond and black as coal are less frequent.

Tomenable
13-12-15, 00:39
There is a website SNPedia, with a search engine available:

http://snpedia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&search=blond&fulltext=Search

Type "blond" and we find that there are over a dozen mutations associated with blond hair.

Most of them are western, but a few can be found outside of Western Eurasian populations.

As for Melanesian blond hair:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481182/#SD1

Gurka atla
13-12-15, 11:00
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac21/lnou07/34495_410261142535_548612535_5048101_1824566_n.jpg

Wow, they are like "Irish" white.


Like Irish white? so you're telling me a Mongoloid can look Irish with light eyes/ hair?

Maybe dalits / South Indian australoids look more Irish white




http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Common/India/Indian_Albinos/redneck_s.jpg
http://nyc.barstoolsports.com/files/2012/03/Screen-shot-2012-03-06-at-12.37.07-PM.png
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HXW-Hxnf1c4/maxresdefault.jpg

Gurka atla
13-12-15, 11:07
Actually no - at least in Europe W tends to be common in areas where blond hair is also common. The correlation is not perfect (for example it does not work for Hungary), but you can't say that W is more common in dark-pigmented populations:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-W-map.png

Light hair in Europe:

http://s24.postimg.org/ry0a3qzhx/Light_Hair.jpg

Light eyes and fair hair in Europe:

http://s13.postimg.org/6y8vudnwn/Alleles.png

==========================================

As for possible Turkic / East Asian admixture in Europe and possible links with some phenotypes.

Here is a map by Maciamo showing the frequency of East Asian/North Asian mtDNA haplogroups:

Map of East/North Asian mtDNA in Europe (LINK) (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png)

I've noticed, that the area with the highest % of East/North Asian mtDNA in Poland, coincides with area with the highest frequency of Lapponoid phenotype / anthropological type according to Stanislav Górny, "Anthropological Territories of Poland". Górny divided Poland into three territories - southern with prevalence (plurality) of Lapponoid type, central with prevalence of Sub-Nordic type (which is basically brachycephalized / broader-headed version of Nordic) and northern with prevalence of Nordic type:

http://s13.postimg.org/rsg4rjzgn/S_Gorny.png

In Hungary on the other hand, so called Turanid types (TUR) are quite common:

(as I wrote, the Ugric-speaking Magayrs mixed with Turkic tribes once they settled in the steppe):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vuz_fhzkQA









This marker is not common on world but it reachest highest frequencies in ethnic minorities of Middle east.

Haplogroup mtDNA W in Middle eastern ethnic groups




mtDNA Iranian Kurdistan.


I - 5%
W - 10%
HV* - 10%
HV1 - 5%
HV2 - 5%
H - 10%
U5 - 5%
U7 - 20%
U8b - 10%
K - 10%
J1 - 10%




Iran zoroastrian 13% mtDNA W

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrians_in_Iran




Clade W* is found in 8.3% of the Svan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svan_people) population of the Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svans


Here are Iran Kurdish, they have 10% W


http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2013/6/27/20136271635850734_20.jpg


Iran Zorochastrians 13% mtDNA W

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn2/feeds/Associated%20Press/2014/06/15/876/493/Mideast%20Iran%20Zoroastrians-4.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Indian Zorochastrians (descendants from Iran )



Svan people 8.3% mtDNA W from South Caucasus, borthering Georgia, Azerbaijan

http://www.georgianjournal.ge/images/georgianews/2015/March/Discover/svaneti-wash%202.jpg


Scandinavians are the blondest and lightest hair people. The Swedes , Danish have lower percentage ( 1-2% ) of mtDNA W than some South/Central European ( 3-4% , 5-6% , 6-7% ) and Middle easternerns (3-4%)

mtDNA W clearly does not correlate with blonde or light hair

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/liberapedia/images/b/b1/Europe-hair0223--light-h.png/revision/latest?cb=20130113090724




Turkish people have 6.7% East Asian/Northeast Asian paternal DNA and 13% East Asian/Northeast Asian maternal DNA but these East Eurasian DNA could be far more higher, the real percentage could be 22% for each male and female because we have know that the Turkic invaders had intebreeded with Indo-European. The Kygyz are racially predominant Mongoloid but they have 65% Caucasian Y-DNA and 42% Caucasian mtDNA and I suspect some of the R1b, R1a in Turkey properly came from partially intebreded Mongoloid males.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Haplogrupo_N_(ADN-Y).PNG

Gurka atla
13-12-15, 11:09
Another video - I didn't know that such very Asian looking people can also be found in Hungary:
(they are obviously rare because most of Hungarians I know look clearly European - but still):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWPCVMEsyeM

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-Q9rAieWU

Are all of these people actually ethnic Hungarians, or are some of them recent immigrants?

=======================================

In Scandinavia you can also find people who look mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid, or even genuinely East Asian - like singer Bjork:

https://changesoft.co/pictures/bjork/bjork-singer-wallpaper-wallpaper-9b9c6a29f95dda29b5357f9f2b53d288-big-66375.jpg

People speculated that she might be descended from Amerindians who were - supposedly - brought back to Iceland by Vikings.

But this story sounds like a legend - and actually in Scandinavia "proper" there are also many people who look similar, and frequency of East/North Asian mtDNA is actually higher in - for example - Sweden, than in Iceland (see the map above).

There is of course also Y-DNA haplogroup Q, which might be ultimately from East Asians, even if assimilated early on by PIEs:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

One sample of Q was found among steppe people of Khvalynsk culture - perhaps an Eastern visitor to Indo-European homeland?


There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation

http://wadiyan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rsz_miracle-baby.jpg

Hauteville
13-12-15, 11:49
There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation

http://wadiyan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rsz_miracle-baby.jpg
Or more like that
7558

Hauteville
13-12-15, 11:54
That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia than to central and eastern part since Mongols (Ilkhanate), Seljuks, Ottomans and even Timurid (Tamerlano) entered and settled more in central and eastern part. Maybe after the expulsion of christians (greeks,armenians etc) the western Anatolia was settled by other peoples?

http://s8.postimg.org/q0vh91rhh/v_EB25v.png (http://postimg.org/image/q0vh91rhd/full/)

Gurka atla
13-12-15, 12:05
That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia than to central and eastern part since Mongols (Ilkhanate), Seljuks, Ottomans and even Timurid (Tamerlano) entered and settled more in central and eastern part. Maybe after the expulsion of christians (greeks,armenians etc) the western Anatolia was settled by other peoples?

http://s8.postimg.org/q0vh91rhh/v_EB25v.png (http://postimg.org/image/q0vh91rhd/full/)


There was a huge migrations of Turkic and Turkified people to populate regions of Greek speaking areas and other non-Turkic speaking areas.


That's because there is 15 million Kurdish minorities. Almost all Kurdish speakers are populated in East Turkey regions so they make up the predominant population in the eastern part.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/11763645624_09a3ab20f1_o.gif



In fact they even dream of their own Kurdistan country in Turkey (which will always be a dream)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KCiXuLgcW6w/VQ1J0GQXNdI/AAAAAAAABYM/cpRmyaFT7qg/s1600/Kurdistan%2BHypocristan%2BTurkey%2Badministration% 2Bmap2.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2121/1766550752_9d4f20be9f.jpg

Hauteville
13-12-15, 12:56
Yeah this explain all. Basically a relocation of turkic peoples into the west.

Tomenable
14-12-15, 05:01
That map is quite weird imo. I dunno why the far asian admixture is stronger in western Anatolia

Western Anatolia is inhabited mostly by Turks, while Eastern Anatolia mostly by Kurds.

So East Asian admixture is lower in areas with ethnically Kurdish population.

Tomenable
14-12-15, 05:05
Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation

No, it was like this:


“Most likely, Joseph Smith had had sex with a prostitute who just prior to that had sex with an anonymous black dude who came inside her. When Joseph Smith made love to the prostitute, sperm from the black man inside the prostitute got caught up in his foreskin. Later, the same day, Joseph Smith went home and made love to his wife. Now, the black dude’s sperm, which was on the tip of his penis made it’s way to Mary’s vagina and fertilized her eggs.”

http://wadiyan.com/2013/04/09/miracle-black-baby-born-to-white-parents/

http://wadiyan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rsz_1miracle-babies-explained-scientific.jpg

Sile
14-12-15, 07:07
There was a huge migrations of Turkic and Turkified people to populate regions of Greek speaking areas and other non-Turkic speaking areas.


That's because there is 15 million Kurdish minorities. Almost all Kurdish speakers are populated in East Turkey regions so they make up the predominant population in the eastern part.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/11763645624_09a3ab20f1_o.gif



In fact they even dream of their own Kurdistan country in Turkey (which will always be a dream)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KCiXuLgcW6w/VQ1J0GQXNdI/AAAAAAAABYM/cpRmyaFT7qg/s1600/Kurdistan%2BHypocristan%2BTurkey%2Badministration% 2Bmap2.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2121/1766550752_9d4f20be9f.jpg


top picture using the mid-green should be the nation called Kurdistan

Gurka atla
14-12-15, 13:42
Yeah this explain all. Basically a relocation of turkic peoples into the west.


But even in the west it was filled with all Kind of non-Turkic ethnicties. Turkey was inhabited Hittites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites), Persians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia), Luwians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwians), Hurrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians), Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_people), Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people), Cimmerians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians), Galatians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia), Colchians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchian),Iberians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians), Carians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carian), Lydians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydians), Lycians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycians), Phrygians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia), Arameans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arameans), Assyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrians), Corduenes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduene), Cappadocians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian), Cilicians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilician), Kurds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people) and scores of others. The presence of many Greeks, and the process of Hellenization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization),


Than there was the assimilation, voluntary and involuntary, including the Anatolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia), Balkan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan), Caucasian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_of_the_Caucasus) and Middle Eastern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eastern) peoples from different ethnic origins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origin), such as the Albanians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), Arabs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_people), Armenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians), Assyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people), Circassians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians), Greeks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews), Romani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people), South Slavic peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_peoples) and East Slavic Ukrainians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians), Iranic peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples) such as Kurds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_People), as well as Lazs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people) from all the regions of the Ottoman Empire and Iran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).

Turkey properly has the most complex history in all the Europe/Middle east region.

Gurka atla
14-12-15, 13:44
top picture using the mid-green should be the nation called Kurdistan

Properly that region was not even Kurdish in the past. This was Anatolian in 200 BC which is already complexed enough.

http://www.kurdistanica.com/sites/default/files/images/content/article-77-izady.jpg

MOESAN
17-12-15, 18:55
There people are just a Asiatic throwback.


Here is 2 white parents with a black child, the white father carried the gene of a Black ancestors slave and passed it to this generation

http://wadiyan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rsz_miracle-baby.jpg


Sorry, Gurka, but this child seems very very 50/50 so almost a genuine 'metis even if in fact his true father is only 80/90% "black": it's not only a question of pigmentation but form of hair, of nose, mouth and so on; never two parents of this kind can without a magic trick give birth to this kind of metis; some europoid" or "SS-african" traits can be hidden at some level but two completely white skins give never a so pigmented child (and at this young age!); the "black" north American families where babies are classified as "white" and "black" include rarely very "black" skinned people and when "white" skinned people occur, they show always some SSAfrican traits, even if slight.
plus: Keep in mind most of the visible African traits are dominant: black hair, black eyes, very curly hair ... other traits are not but...
there is not complete thowback among mixed people where a component has been drastically wahsed out by time and history, or I missed a huge thing?
That said, I agree with you concerning the West Turkey population: repopulation - ? OR/AND ? front ligne warriors like in other historic colonizations after conflict in old times?

MOESAN
17-12-15, 19:24
@Gurka:
OK for the most you say; concerning Avars what you say is not too different from what I said; but if Avars were at first 'europoids' people, why their elite seemed more 'mongoloid'? a mystery for me.
concerning pigmentation (we passed a lot of time about it!) and auDNA, we need deeper auDNA analysis and more numerous stuff with %s for pigmentation; in Asia (Indochine of the Frenchies) scholars of ancient time found only 1 blond for 1000 by instance (there, as said Tomenable, the blondism could be of Oceanian origin, only DNA can say.
the rare red hair found today among Easter Islands population would be of european origin concerning DNA if I red well and believed Genetiker (?) as for Jamaicans.
good evening

Sile
17-12-15, 19:56
Properly that region was not even Kurdish in the past. This was Anatolian in 200 BC which is already complexed enough.

http://www.kurdistanica.com/sites/default/files/images/content/article-77-izady.jpg

thanks

Cilicia was once Armenian

Cappodacia was the lands that crimean people settled and mixed with the locals

Paphlongia ...states as home of the Veneti

Bithynia only thracian region in anatolia

Galatea ...settled by celts from eastern alps area

Pontus and colchis, settled by greeks

Dersene, stated as original home of the kurds

Boreas
17-12-15, 21:10
What is the questions and what are you talking about :confused2:

The question is So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31780-So-it-s-official-that-Original-Turks-Xiongnu-Huns-Gokturks-were-Mongoloid)

but you are discussing on Turkey :embarassed:

MOESAN
18-12-15, 01:06
What is the questions and what are you talking about :confused2:

The question is So it's official that Original Turks , Xiongnu, Huns, Gokturks were Mongoloid? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31780-So-it-s-official-that-Original-Turks-Xiongnu-Huns-Gokturks-were-Mongoloid)

but you are discussing on Turkey :embarassed:

Good remark. I took part in some side gossips too; the answer could be given when we have metrics and DNA surveys about every population you mentioned here above, when cultural-linguistic identification will be reliably made; the question of 'mongoloid' or 'east-asian' admixture in West Anatolia today could confirm that at least a sensible percentage of first Turks would have been of 'east-asian' stock, broadly said. A roughly East>>West gradiant of 'east-asian' %s could confirm it, but Mongols story could put some mess in the game without speaking of some 'east-asian' females coopted by I-Eans males, so ancient DNA would be useful but only if well identified and dated.

Gurka atla
19-12-15, 02:54
Sorry, Gurka, but this child seems very very 50/50 so almost a genuine 'metis even if in fact his true father is only 80/90% "black": it's not only a question of pigmentation but form of hair, of nose, mouth and so on; never two parents of this kind can without a magic trick give birth to this kind of metis; some europoid" or "SS-african" traits can be hidden at some level but two completely white skins give never a so pigmented child (and at this young age!); the "black" north American families where babies are classified as "white" and "black" include rarely very "black" skinned people and when "white" skinned people occur, they show always some SSAfrican traits, even if slight.
plus: Keep in mind most of the visible African traits are dominant: black hair, black eyes, very curly hair ... other traits are not but...
there is not complete thowback among mixed people where a component has been drastically wahsed out by time and history, or I missed a huge thing?
That said, I agree with you concerning the West Turkey population: repopulation - ? OR/AND ? front ligne warriors like in other historic colonizations after conflict in old times?


Although it is extremely, there had been plenty of cases where White couples give birth to black childrens and Black couples giving birth to White childrens.

Genetics is a very complicated thing.

Gurka atla
19-12-15, 03:02
Good remark. I took part in some side gossips too; the answer could be given when we have metrics and DNA surveys about every population you mentioned here above, when cultural-linguistic identification will be reliably made; the question of 'mongoloid' or 'east-asian' admixture in West Anatolia today could confirm that at least a sensible percentage of first Turks would have been of 'east-asian' stock, broadly said. A roughly East>>West gradiant of 'east-asian' %s could confirm it, but Mongols story could put some mess in the game without speaking of some 'east-asian' females coopted by I-Eans males, so ancient DNA would be useful but only if well identified and dated.


Mongoloid/Caucasoid intermixing dates back long before the existence of Turkic empire, language, ethnicity was even formed. Turkic genetic legacy is far more complicated than first though. Although there is no doubt that Central Asia was heavily effected by the Mongol invasion, Central Asia already had a signficant portion of Mongoloid/Caucasian people although majority was still Iranic, Mongol invasion later added much more. I now even doubt that the Kyrgyz with R1a derived from Indo-European male ( I mean the origin is I-Eans ) . Given the fact Kyrgyz also gave 42.6% of Caucasian maternal lineages or I-Eans females. I rather trust in anthropological evidence rather DNA haplogroup who doesn't tell the whole story.



Pazyryk culture ( 600 BC ) Males were R1a part Mongoloid, females were Europoid.


" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "


http://bks0.books.google.co.uk/books?id=LAwuAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE72hDP14IoK15eHuSP9yEPt5NELMRMEpd3ydYpcp z20cwdRComgrp_V63PnxdIFr2WZ9PVius6Hl6lmmaiGI8hJbJm 7OKh2G_bcqL-YoOPd4JFp1F4g

Gurka atla
19-12-15, 03:07
@Gurka:
OK for the most you say; concerning Avars what you say is not too different from what I said; but if Avars were at first 'europoids' people, why their elite seemed more 'mongoloid'? a mystery for me.
concerning pigmentation (we passed a lot of time about it!) and auDNA, we need deeper auDNA analysis and more numerous stuff with %s for pigmentation; in Asia (Indochine of the Frenchies) scholars of ancient time found only 1 blond for 1000 by instance (there, as said Tomenable, the blondism could be of Oceanian origin, only DNA can say.
the rare red hair found today among Easter Islands population would be of european origin concerning DNA if I red well and believed Genetiker (?) as for Jamaicans.
good evening

They were not pure Europoid, they were Turanids. A europoid with signficant Mongoloid influence. Perharps It was Mongoloid elite minority who subjugated the Iranic majority.

The red hair in Easter Islands is properly not European origin. I watched a youtube video saying the red hair mummy found in south America was the result of decaying and found no evidence of European origin at all.

MOESAN
20-12-15, 00:34
Although it is extremely, there had been plenty of cases where White couples give birth to black childrens and Black couples giving birth to White childrens.

Genetics is a very complicated thing.

If you accept to believe it I see no objection - but genetics, spite complicated, is NOT SO complicated to put me to swallow this. No offense.
you should look at genetics dominance question and mulitibiallelic traits... by the way, the most complicated are transmission paths, the less possible to pass from a 100% something to a 100 % other thing.

MOESAN
20-12-15, 00:46
They were not pure Europoid, they were Turanids. A europoid with signficant Mongoloid influence. Perharps It was Mongoloid elite minority who subjugated the Iranic majority.

The red hair in Easter Islands is properly not European origin. I watched a youtube video saying the red hair mummy found in south America was the result of decaying and found no evidence of European origin at all.

Turanid is an easy way to qualifiy an heterogenous mean population rather than a well isolated type; I saw Tadjiks and red about them; they are crossings with 'east-asian' more than an 'europoid' type, but with a dominant brachycephalic one evocating something between 'borreby' and 'dinaric' at first sight, and pigmentary 'europoid' for the most. Old anthropolgy was not always too precise concerning non european populations and I saw too low number of Tadjiks to be sure of any thing (it spites me).
concerning the 'red hair' I cited Genetiker without too much confidence because he seems having some agenda but who knows? he seemed knowing something about his (or their) DNA; have you the reference of your 'You Tube' extract?
thanks in advance;

Alpakut
14-03-16, 22:03
No, most of Indian R1a is also under Z93/Z94 - actually most is under even younger L657:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L657/

It most certainly came with the Aryan migration ("invasion" is a wrong term) to India
Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old. This R1a type has nothing to do with the so called "Aryan migration". The other Z93 markers are clearly Turkic, and looking at the Z93 basic map it turns out a purely Turkic haplogroup diffused into south Asia.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg
(I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93)

Goga
14-03-16, 22:12
According to that academic study where your pictures are from, R1a evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau.


Not really. The so called 'Aryan' R1a is actually Z94. R1a-Z94 evolved somewhere on the Iranian Plateau also.


Btw, Aryans were not only R1a-Z94, but also R2a, J2a, G2, J1 etc. They were Caucaso-Gedrosia folks = Iranid ...

Tomenable
14-03-16, 23:42
Alpakut, you should check ancient DNA samples, not modern distribution.

Based on modern distribution, it was believed that R1b is a Basque marker.


I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93

Eupedia map is actually much better, as it is not automatically generated.


Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old.

Entire R1a-Z93 is just 5.000 years old, and Indian subclades even younger:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

Ailchu
02-07-18, 04:42
is that map in the first post still up to date? the distribution of east asian ancestry in south western turkey seems unrealisticly high. did the turkic people all migrate there? and 20% is still massive even if the turkic conquerors were 100% east asian. or does east eurasian not only include east asian admixtures but also admixtures that were already present in anatolia before?

Ed the Red
02-10-18, 05:08
They can’t denote a single population as a start! Especially when they intermingled from the very start. And wherever we all started doesn’t matter as much as what all our last inclusion of genetics is. But remember if you were royal you need a son for an unbroken Y-DNA chromosome. Amazing that the line is unbroken. But which dynasty has some of the longest Y-DNA? Guess I will google haha

Ed the Red
02-10-18, 05:24
Just remember basic history of war and conquerors. The mongols never quite made it past Poland. And Poland stopped the ottomans from entering Western Europe with their cavalry. The Siege of Vienna. If you have characteristics of different populations that is then the signal of your past. But If you have characteristics of your historical population well then you will have to delve into history which will explain. But there is a lot of history to be collected thus far through DNA so don’t count on anything. We know that southern Russia was a highway of many cultures. The steppes intermingled quite prominently. You may have even red hair in what is china from ancient population movements, and also Sanskrit has Indo-European elements. Well pretty obvious if they correlate Indo with European. Can’t say the one cause of migrations East and West but they were quite prominent as technology from the Fertile Crescent proceeded North. It all has to do with advanced technology that cultures may have learned from others or developed ingenuity with themselves or I mean their own unique culture. The bottom line is we all have an ability to advance and evolve, so it’s about time we do, don’t ya think! But elements of how we have become over time, should remain........within reason of focusing on good elements. Because now we are connected worldwide. We will always advance our history of the beginning as we push forward for answers. Some amazing cultures developed more independently as well as communicated. And war I hate to say advanced populations most technologically. Now every advancement affects us all. Is life gonna be more of a privilege than before. I wish I knew

MOESAN
14-10-18, 21:39
Here under a digest of a new paper about Tagars, compared to other Asia old pops. Not without interest even if not centered about all Turk ancient tribes.
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jeudi 11 octobre 2018
ADN mitochondrial ancien de la population Tagar du Sud de la Sibrie (http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?post/2018/10/11/ADN-mitochondrial-ancien-de-la-population-Tagar-du-Sud-de-la-Sib%C3%A9rie) Par Bernard Scher le jeudi 11 octobre 2018, 19:12 - ADN ancien (http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/index.php?category/ADN-ancien)
Au 1er millnaire av. JC., de nombreux groupes nomades ont prospr dans la ceinture des steppes d'Eurasie, entre la rgion nord Pontique et le sud de la Sibrie. Les diffrentes phases de dveloppement de ces communauts se distinguent par les donnes archologiques et historiques (pr-Scythes, Scythes et Sarmates). La culture Tagar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture) est un des groupes archologiques les plus tudis de nomades du Sud de la Sibrie. Elle se situe dans le bassin de Minoussinsk (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoussinsk) autour de la rivire Ienisse (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ienisse%C3%AF) et des monts Saan (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monts_Sa%C3%AFan), et date du premier millnaire av. JC.

Aleksandr Pilipenko et ses collgues viennent de publier un papier intitul: Maternal genetic features of the Iron Age Tagar population from Southern Siberia (1 st millennium BC) (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0204062). Ils ont analys l'ADN mitochondrial de 79 squelettes de la culture Tagar dont 46 de la phase ancienne (9me au 6me sicles av. JC.), 24 de la phase moyenne (5me au 3me sicles av. JC.) et 9 de la phase finale (2d et 1er sicles av. JC.). La figure ci-dessous indique la localisation gographique des diffrents cimetires dont sont issus les chantillons tudis:
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2018_Pilipenko_Figure1.jpg

Les auteurs ont squenc la rgion HVR1 de la rgion de contrle et test certains SNPs de la rgion codante pour discriminer les principaux haplogroupes. Ils ont ainsi dtect 39 haplotypes diffrents. Les haplogroupes appartiennent en majorit l'ouest de l'Eurasie (65%: H, HV6, HV* , I, K, T, U2e, U4, U5a et U*), mais galement l'Eurasie de l'est (35%: A, A8, C, C4, C5, D, G2a et F1b). 23 des 39 haplotypes sont originaires de l'ouest de l'Eurasie. Les haplogroupes T, U2e et U4 sont les plus frquents. Les haplogroupes est Asiatiques les plus frquents sont A, C et D. Les haplotypes les plus frquents appartiennent aux haplogroupes suivants: T1 (10 individus), U4 (6 individus) et D (5 individus):
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2018_Pilipenko_Figure2.jpg

Les auteurs ont ensuite compar la diversit gntique de la population Tagar avec celle d'autres populations anciennes en ralisant une analyse multi-chelles. Dans la figure ci-dessous la population Tagar est reprsente par un pentagone rouge, les populations de l'ge du Fer relies aux Scythes par des cercles rouges (Pazyryks, Aldy-Bel et Scythes de la rgion nord Pontique), les populations de l'ge du Fer non relies aux Scythes par des cercles noirs, les populations plus anciennes du Nolithique et de l'ge du Bronze par des carrs noirs:
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2018_Pilipenko_Figure3.jpg

Parmi les populations de l'ge du Bronze, les Tagars se situent entre les populations Okunevo, Andronovo du bassin de Minoussinsk, Afanasievo et ge du Bronze moyen de l'Alta Mongole. Parmi les populations de l'ge du Fer, les Tagars se situent proches des populations du monde Scythe.

Les auteurs ont ensuite refait la mme analyse en sparant la population Tagar en trois groupes chronologiques (Ancien, Moyen et Rcent):
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2018_Pilipenko_Figure5.jpg

Les Tagars Anciens (pentagone orange) sont plus proches des Scythes de l'ouest, alors que les Tagars Moyens (pentagone bleu) sont plus proches des populations sud Sibriennes. Les Tagars Rcents (pentagone vert) sont nouveau plus proches des anciennes populations occidentales, cependant le faible nombre (9) d'individus de ce dernier groupe suggre de rester prudent sur ces rsultats.

Les auteurs ont galement compar la population Tagar avec des populations contemporaines. Ainsi elle est proche de certaines populations Turques (Bachkirs (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachkirs) de la rgion Volga-Oural et Tatars (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) de Sibrie), mais galement d'une population Indo-Iranienne: les Tadjiks (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadjiks).

En conclusion, la population Tagar est proche gntiquement des populations de l'ge du Fer relies au monde Scythe. La prsence d'haplogroupes ouest Eurasiens dans la rgion de l'Alta date probablement des diffrentes migrations de l'ge du Bronze: Afanasievo (Bronze Ancien) et Andronovo (Bronze Moyen). D'autre part la prsence des haplogroupes est Asiatiques, notamment A8 et C4, en Eurasie de l'ouest pendant la priode Scythe, est probablement due aux mouvements des populations nomades de l'ge du Fer.

TheKong
05-11-18, 01:32
Actually Turks and Turkic culture is Andronava and they are brakisefal. These map is wrong, most people of Adana and Urfa Turkic and Turks hyprotetic .Erzincan, Erzurum and Kars too. Turks are different from Mongolid...

kmak
17-11-20, 13:01
Indian R1a came to India from central Asia but it is 14.000 years old. This R1a type has nothing to do with the so called "Aryan migration". The other Z93 markers are clearly Turkic, and looking at the Z93 basic map it turns out a purely Turkic haplogroup diffused into south Asia.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg
(I also don't want to see the eupedia cosmetic fake map of Z93)

Z93 is indo-iranian origin, Turkic R1a-Z93 is descent from indo-iranians.