Geographic barriers determine more R1b subclade's areas than ethnic groups

berun

berun

Regular Member
Messages
1,084
Reaction score
183
Points
0
After looking the maps for L21, U152, DF27, U106 it's absolutely normal to link each subclade with know ancient cultures (per example Irish/Q-celts, P-Celts/Italics, Iberians/Basques, or Germanics)... but taking into account history, it's possible to map these subclades how would be 2000 years ago: French Britanny was colonized by Britons fleeing from invading Saxons, Germanic Saxons were invading Great Britain after crossing the sea like Germanic Franks were occupying mainly the north of France after crossing the Rhine (the same was done by the Alamani but in Alsace); Vascones were also pushing inside France founding a new country (Wasconia > Gascony)... so 2000 years ago the subclades L21, DF27 and U106 most problably coincided with geographic barriers (the sea, Pyrenees, Rhine), and that would imply that the area occupied by such subclades by then were not determined so much by ethnics but by barriers. The main exception would be to explain why U152 is not taking into account the Alps, but there are also known historical causes to explain it: Hallstadt Celts invaded Noth Italy around XII bC, creating there the Canegrate/Golasecca Cultures which led to the Lepontian language, and by IV bC some Gaulish tribes crossed the Alps, so that North Italy was known as Cisalpine Gaul. The Villanovan Culture of Tuscany also had strong ties with Hallstadt, but the language that dominated there was Etruscan, maybe by their superior civilization.

So geographic barriers are determining important R1b subclades (but also geographic barriers can determine language's areas).

A little problem about this thinking about geographic barriers is the presence of U106 in both Scandinavia and Germany; the sea barrier is not so strong as there are many islands in between, but it could be supposed by statistical means that U106 developed somewhere in Germany (there were more people living in Germany than in Scandinavia, so the possibilities to have the U106 mutations was bigger in Germany). The presence of U106 in Scandinavia could be explained as that it was carried along indoeuropeanization, possibly led by R1a Corded Ware people.
 
Hello there Berun, welcome to Eupedia. What ydna maps are you referring too? Maciamo has made a waiver saying that we aren't calling any ancient histories actual fact since history was not writen down until the days of Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. And we as Eupedians strive to collect propaganda-free data from archeologists and Geneticists.

The history of R1b as you see it is the history of Ydna R1b with the most up to date information.

here is the link to Maciamo's disclaimer

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
 
Hello Twilight, the source (among others) is the Eupedia itself

doublevx3 dot eupedia dot com /europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

The early split of L21 from the main Proto-Celtic branch around Germany would explain why the Q-celtic languages (Goidelic and Hispano-Celtic) diverged so much from the P-Celtic branch (La Tène, Gaulish, Brythonic), which appears to have expanded from the later Urnfield and Hallstat cultures.
Click to expand...

After the Unetice expansion to Western Europe between 2300 and 1800 BCE, the Urnfield/Hallstatt/La Tène period represents the second major R1b expansion that took place from Central Europe, pushing west to the Atlantic, north to Scandinavia, east to the Danubian valley, and eventually as far away as Greece, Anatolia, Ukraine and Russia, perhaps even until the Tarim basin in north-west China
Click to expand...

The principal Proto-Germanic branch of the Indo-European family tree is R1b-S21 (a.k.a. U106). This haplogroup is found at high concentrations in the Netherlands and north-west Germany. It is likely that R1b-S21 lineages expanded in this region through a founder effect during the Unetice period, then penetrated into Scandinavia around 1700 BCE, thus creating a new culture, that of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE).
Click to expand...

and so on...
 
berun said:
so 2000 years ago the subclades L21, DF27 and U106 most problably coincided with geographic barriers (the sea, Pyrenees, Rhine), and that would imply that the area occupied by such subclades by then were not determined so much by ethnics but by barriers.
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing it. The sea wasn't a huge barrier, as it had been crossed centuries prior (Celts into the Isles), and the Romans and Germanic tribes were pirating each other all over it. The Rhine is a convenient border, but was never much of a barrier. Am I just misunderstanding?
 
berun said:
After looking the maps for L21, U152, DF27, U106 it's absolutely normal to link each subclade with know ancient cultures (per example Irish/Q-celts, P-Celts/Italics, Iberians/Basques, or Germanics)... but taking into account history, it's possible to map these subclades how would be 2000 years ago: French Britanny was colonized by Britons fleeing from invading Saxons, Germanic Saxons were invading Great Britain after crossing the sea like Germanic Franks were occupying mainly the north of France after crossing the Rhine (the same was done by the Alamani but in Alsace); Vascones were also pushing inside France founding a new country (Wasconia > Gascony)... so 2000 years ago the subclades L21, DF27 and U106 most problably coincided with geographic barriers (the sea, Pyrenees, Rhine), and that would imply that the area occupied by such subclades by then were not determined so much by ethnics but by barriers. The main exception would be to explain why U152 is not taking into account the Alps, but there are also known historical causes to explain it: Hallstadt Celts invaded Noth Italy around XII bC, creating there the Canegrate/Golasecca Cultures which led to the Lepontian language, and by IV bC some Gaulish tribes crossed the Alps, so that North Italy was known as Cisalpine Gaul. The Villanovan Culture of Tuscany also had strong ties with Hallstadt, but the language that dominated there was Etruscan, maybe by their superior civilization.

So geographic barriers are determining important R1b subclades (but also geographic barriers can determine language's areas).

A little problem about this thinking about geographic barriers is the presence of U106 in both Scandinavia and Germany; the sea barrier is not so strong as there are many islands in between, but it could be supposed by statistical means that U106 developed somewhere in Germany (there were more people living in Germany than in Scandinavia, so the possibilities to have the U106 mutations was bigger in Germany). The presence of U106 in Scandinavia could be explained as that it was carried along indoeuropeanization, possibly led by R1a Corded Ware people.
Click to expand...


The Balkan gallic celts spoke Q-celtic ..............there are many papers
on the invasion of q speaking celts in the balkans.


Like below....after the celts annexed and absorbed the illyrians, they attakced greece bu failed so they fought the thracians

https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On_The_Celtic_Conquest_of_Thrace_280_279_BC_
 
Athiudisc said:
I'm not seeing it. The sea wasn't a huge barrier, as it had been crossed centuries prior (Celts into the Isles), and the Romans and Germanic tribes were pirating each other all over it. The Rhine is a convenient border, but was never much of a barrier. Am I just misunderstanding?
Click to expand...

The English Channel is 50 km wide in it's narrowest point, that's a geographic barrier more important than Gibraltar's Strait with 14 km... (!) Of course you will find invaders going to the opposite coast (Hallstadt Celts, Belgians, Saxons...), but that are episodic events which could be tracked moreover with genetics; to share habitualy DNA with such frontier is not more easy or regular, maybe some fisher going to live in the other coast... For pirates standing in the isle... they must be more to keep the territory (what if 50000 tribal Britons against 50 pirates?).

The Rhine was an effective frontier by four centuries,

https:// en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Crossing_of_the_Rhine

"DNA interchange" can be done crossing the river, but allways will be less than by connected land; you can guess that to cross such water wouldn't be suitable if there was not some profit to do it.
 
Sile said:
The Balkan gallic celts spoke Q-celtic ..............there are many papers
on the invasion of q speaking celts in the balkans.
Click to expand...

Can you give an example? I'm aware of Q-Celt dialects only in "marginal" areas (or no central areas): Celtiberian and Old Irish.

By the way the development of "regional R1b" ADN would be mainly independent of ancient language replacements.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 5684 times.

Back
Top