moore2moore
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moore2moore said:This is why a slightly more downstream clade of R1b*, ancestral to modern lineages, was found, already in Els Trocs Spain, 7000 years ago.
There seem to be disputes online. The Reich paper, i.e. the scientific lab testing the remains, said they were R1b1 (P25).
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.02783.pdf
That is ancestral to M269.
Several others noted this:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3818-Ancient-R1b-DNA-from-Spain
Others try to make calls that the Els Trocs specimen was from a brother clade of M269 and therefore not ancestral, but I am unaware of that being in any scientific paper.
Here's what is certain:
By 7000 years ago, R1b1 P25 was present from Spain to Siberia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b
Think of that. This is pre-plane, pre-mass migration by boat, pre-car, pre-horse.
In other words, whether Els Trocs was a brother clade or not, the daddy clade was present throughout Europe, already, by 7000 years ago. Therefore, the migrations that dispersed it likely happened as early as 8000 years ago. It's a vast range.
It's insanity to think that if the ancestral form was present that long ago, that the derived mutation M269 couldn't have also been present across such a large range.
Use I2 as a model. Several forms of it, grandfather clade, father clade, brother clades, are present during a wide swath of Europe over the millennia of prehistory.
The Reich paper, i.e. the scientific lab testing the remains, said they were R1b1 (P25).
That is ancestral to M269.
Here's what is certain:
By 7000 years ago, R1b1 P25 was present from Spain to Siberia.
Also I2 has a point of origin from where it spreads. The fact because of that we have a lot of I2 samples all over Eurasia isn't due to the fact it was ab origine well and uniformly spread... but it is due to the fact that I2 is more ancient than other clades and it spread before other y-haplogroups began their expansion.
And, of course, it is nearly impossible that the same mutation formed in the mean time in two different places from two different lines. We have. probably, a M269 from El Portalon and we have a M269 in Yamna of the same period: how is it possibile? Probably, one of the two isn't M269. Or, a relative of one of the two samples migrated from a place to the other. But, obviously, we haven't the case that M269 developed from two different lines in two different places in the mean time.
but your absolute rule saying someting like to "the last newcomers are always the most numerous and the preceding stable populations are obliged to be overrun by them" is a big hypothesis without too much basis for its universal affirmation. By the way told in other words it could seem a confirmation of the BA-IE thesis!
they probably had constant fights with the farmers there, so at one point, they probably said "**** it, let's keep moving"
This is exactly what I am saying with respect to R1b-M269. That its predecessor clades are slightly more spread out than people think.
I'm not aware of any people in history (and trust me, I have read a LOT of history in my time) moving as fast as people would need to move to get R1b in El Portalon and the Yamna at the same time, unless it was present before their period.
There's no reason to believe this is true. It's no more probable than saying "it was five years and twelve days of bloody war to the knife."Say it with me everyone: There was no conquest.
I don't know why you're so hung up on this strawman.empires empire empires
Assuming every point of that is true, it still doesn't magically make it impossible there was violent conflict between the previous and new populations. I really, really don't understand why you think this. We know there was apparently massive population replacement. What's convinced you it was all peaceful? Why are you convinced there was never any violence involved? Why does that seem like a logical thing to insist?This was likely very simple. Start with smaller host populations. Add different disease resistances, coupled with a time of famine, but a caloric advantage for the newcomers (wine/milk?), and then differing birthrates. It's that simple.
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