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berun
24-12-15, 16:28
In many studies there is a trend to consider actual Basques as descendants of a pre-Indoeuropean population speaking a language unrelated to Indoeuropean, so to know their genetic make up is important to try to understand the ancient peopling of Europe.

By sure many people is not aware that all it is not so cristal clear; in fact there is a very important theory that says that Basque Country (Euskadi, that is Guipuzcoa, Vizcaya, Álava provinces) suffered a Basquisation in the V-VI centuries, in a epoch of wolkenwanderungen or migration of tribes (at least one of such migrations was documented for Gascony, aka medieval Wasconia).

English Wikipedia has some data, but the Spanish one has more facts content:

https:// en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Late_Basquisation

So it would make actual Basques to be old Celts like their western neighbors with additional Vascon migrants; the place to look for Vascon genes would be where there were the ancient Vascones: Navarre province

https:// upload dot wikimedia dot org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/PrerromanosN.png

berun
24-12-15, 16:32
In the Vascones territory is where Basque onomastics (toponymy, teonymy, anthroponymy) is known since Roman epoch; the Basque Country onomastics were mainly Celtic by then.

Fire Haired14
26-12-15, 05:17
Basque country is pretty close to where Vascons lived. If the Basque country wasn't Vasconic in the Middle Ages, the people living there could not have been too differnt from Vascon speakers in SW France. So, whether or not Basque lived in the Basque country in the Middle Ages doesn't change things very much. SW French and Basque are very similar genetically. Basque have lots of decent from the Vascons.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Basque country was Celtic then Latin speaking. The ridiculous romanticism over Basque ignored the fact Iberia/SW France became IE-speaking with little gene flow(Romans didn't migrate en masse to Iberia). Much of that region was non-IE speaking before Rome conquered them. Basque shouldn't be very differnt from their neighbors. The uniqueness of Basque only goes back to historical times, because they retained their pre-Latin language. They aren't sometypeof Paleolithic or Neolithic isolate.

berun
26-12-15, 20:33
OK, you are right; i have got Y-DNA results for Navarre province (Vascones' urheimat) from here:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/12/molbev.mss091/suppl/DC1

summing RON + NCO + NNO regions you get 164 Navarrese cases that give similar results to their Basque neighbors:

2 I-M223, 2 E-M81, 9 I-M26, 6 J-M410, 25 R-L21, 27 R-M153, 65 R-P312, 13 R-SRY2627, 2 R-U106, 2 R-U152

even so it would be nice to detect from here the "Basque language genes" if the theory of Basquisation is right

berun
26-12-15, 20:59
Basque country is pretty close to where Vascons lived. If the Basque country wasn't Vasconic in the Middle Ages, the people living there could not have been too differnt from Vascon speakers in SW France. So, whether or not Basque lived in the Basque country in the Middle Ages doesn't change things very much. SW French and Basque are very similar genetically. Basque have lots of decent from the Vascons.

In whichever case it is good to verify assumptions like that: check up the different make up between Austria and Hungary per example: things are not like that there.

MOESAN
26-12-15, 22:40
Basque country is pretty close to where Vascons lived. If the Basque country wasn't Vasconic in the Middle Ages, the people living there could not have been too differnt from Vascon speakers in SW France. So, whether or not Basque lived in the Basque country in the Middle Ages doesn't change things very much. SW French and Basque are very similar genetically. Basque have lots of decent from the Vascons.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Basque country was Celtic then Latin speaking. The ridiculous romanticism over Basque ignored the fact Iberia/SW France became IE-speaking with little gene flow(Romans didn't migrate en masse to Iberia). Much of that region was non-IE speaking before Rome conquered them. Basque shouldn't be very differnt from their neighbors. The uniqueness of Basque only goes back to historical times, because they retained their pre-Latin language. They aren't sometypeof Paleolithic or Neolithic isolate.

Things are not so simple: Basque population show some autosomals êculiar links with SW France, but they seem the source of these links, not the target. And SW French History is complicated. Celtic tribes were living side by side with Aquitanian tribes in Aquitania. Other autosomal traits are less peculiar, by instance some HLA groups, and show links with Madrid Spanyards, Central-Western Europeans, Sardinians and even Maghrebins of Alger. So, Neolithic and perhpas pre-Neolithic "mditerranean" heritage, some North Pyrenean heritage. The peculiar traits, found too in physical aspect at some level, could have their sources a) in a special substrata - b) peculiar evolution upon common heritage by drifts caused by narrow endogamy. By the way, a subjacent tendancy among modern basques (temporal broadening, high but bigonials narrowing bigonials was visible in West Pyrenees at Late Neolithic-Eneolithic periode, upon a strata where 'cromagnoid' traits were still common; that said, it seems to me Chancelade type show a bit earlier same evolution compared to Combe-Capelle, the magdalenians there was surely already mixed of 'cromagnoids' and 'chancelad-oids' men. Details apart, all that could prove a part of the Basque strata was and stayed local spite Neolithic "mediterraneans" contribution and northern introgression. I 'll try to develop other arguments about Basques, even if I'm far to have found a good conclusion.
That said It's true the doorstep between Basques and SW French people is smooth when it is more steep between Basques and other Iberians.

MOESAN
26-12-15, 23:38
Please, do take a pill or two before to read.

Therehas been a relativeshiftbetween Chalcolithic/Bronze basque country inhabitants and the todayBasques: the today ones show a lot of auDNA of "neolithic"origin but also something more western and northern, for a part. Notonly what could be seen as an old WHG inheritage of diverse sources(Mesolithicpopulation and partly Mesolithic doted post-Early Bronze otherpopulations) and a maybe steppic element with some peculiarity: insome admixtures analysis the Basque Country shows a 100% 'gedrosia' /'gedrosia'+'caucasus' components, ratio decreasing from Basquecountry onwards to other today Iberia provinces; it cannot be only acalculator artifice andlinks partly basques to Northwestern today Europeans in the samedirection as DOD 'basque'/'sardinian' ratio;the closer are in the order the Castile-Leon, Catalunia,Castile-Mancha, Aragon, Valencia. the farther: Baleares and Galicia.Very often, Cantabricas shows differences, being close enough forabsolute %s in Y-R1b-S116 but not so close for absolute DF27%s and relative%s D27/S116. I don't see too close relation between the'gedrosia'/'caucasus' ratio and D27/S116 ratio. Nevertheless Y-R1bseems being come for the most from the other side of Pyrenees, andsurely not only with late true Basques from Aquitania, a lot too withI-Eans, vaguely Ligurianlike old-west-european I-Eans and Celtspartly akin to them.
theReconquista seems having send bearers of Y-R1b-S116 firstly toCastile and then to Andalusia. The lost of 'gedrosia' when leavingN-E Spain could mark the male aspect of recolonization of SouthSpain, keepingthe male lignages but not all the auDNA. But the same occurs forother Spain regions, so the male aspect doesn't trace only toreconquista andcould better be linked to post-Chalcolithic introgressions.It's intructive the "new-Basquized" people of Spain Basqueshave less total S116 than old "autochtonous" Basques butproprotionally abit higherratio for D27/S116, so less S116*: here the difference Basque/otherregions is flatter almost 0 (Portuguese have a ratio a bit higherthan the "autochtonous" Basques, as people of Madrid havetoo. The more S116* among trueBasques COULD be interpreted as a first step of S116 in North Spainthrough Basquecountry; the new settlements around loose a part of the already rarerS116* old forms and by later demic encreasing favorized the newerDF27? In other parts, as Galicia and Catalunia, the even lower ratioof DF27/S116 seems to me linked to a all horizon larger spectre ofY-R1b with other SNPs as R-U152, arrived there with othercolonizations – (other)Celts?Romans?Germanics? -. Question:if there would be an impoverishment of whole Y-R1b-S116 for a whileamong Basques (bottleneck) we would have waited a lost of S116*. Itis not the case COMPAREDto otherIberians.So I wonder if a numerousenough populationof S116 gave birth to DF27 in France or elswhere not too far, and asmall part of it went ahead towards SouthwestFrance, rich enough yetfor S116* spite DF27 was already growing up to largemajorityinthis small group,without the other fortuned SNP like L21 or U152. Andit is this firstly small group which latergrew up and wentdown to North Iberia. Themore S116* among the more numerous S116 is a proof of anteriority andsource position. The relative greater not-S116* not-DF27 amongregions (Galicia, Asturies, Cantabricas the most) with less absoluteR-S116 is rather the result of complementary Y-R1b people of diverseother sources. So I retain the impression of a first wave* of Y-R1bS116 specialized into DF27 came from North Spain, rather throughFrench Basque country from an unprecise region in West France, butsurely notas late as the basqueethnic group, rather around or just before Bronze Age. Therelatively flat variation of the ratio DF27/S116 push me to presumeit was the same wave of males, the closer ratios in Madrid, Portugaland Andalusia don't contradict this. I would say : Celts, butare we sure all of them were Celtic speaking ? In Iberia, almostsure. In Western France ?
Thelinguistic/genetic discrepancy could be explained by a progressiveintroduction of Y-R1b males and maybesome associatedfemales generation by generation in a proto-basque speakingpopulation were the steppic male system of matingprimautyforrulers wasnot in use.
NoteI don't speak here of somepre-S116R1b, and even less of R-V88 I see other sources and times for them inIberia.


Whenlooking at Basque country ancient mtDNA we see bigger changes inNavarra (Center and South) than in other Basque regions, but if morecomplicated it seems due also for the most to mt-H increase and lostof mt-U. We see here the importance of regional scale surveys. Inmean, Basque country, spite the « no change-stability »religion, shows changes at Neolithic and at Chalcolithic, spitegloballynot too striking*. But at modenr times, Basque country mt-DNA shows akind of return to older positions : increase of mt-H (>than Chalco) andmt-U (>than Neo and Chalco) anddecrease of Neolithic non-Hmt-DNAbut a strong enough score of mt-J. Butthe mt-H does not seem linked to basic southeasterners / neolithicpeople. It couldbemore linked waveor maritimeMegalithers of West, or to Southpre-agricultureEurope (famoussecond Mesolithic?) takenwith Megalithers,and by the fact it decreased a bit during Chalcolithic. It's true welack here the subclades of mt-H andothers.Somepresumed H5 could have been arrived from East at BBs time ? Mt-Jis interestingbecause it did not decrease after Neolithic/Copper and we know it'sweighty enough among today British populations, themost in West, in Denmark, W-Norway (but too in North-Pyerene andAragon).ButmtDNA today seems so capriciously distributed, as stroke by the «great numbers law » when it does not outpasses the 1à-12 %...
* :butin North basque country the mesolithic mt DNA heritage stayed verystronger at Neolithic, in what I red.


Concerninglanguage, we could take the problem the other side and say firstY-R1b waves in Western Europe were proto-basquic speakers ?Metals names in Basque are not of I-Ean origin... anindoeuropeanization in Eastern Europe at some stage progressingwestwards? Few small tribes stayed at the L21-DF27 frontier onAtlantic with old basquic/wasconic, between Loire and Pyrenees whenother more southernly accepted I-E ? (old I-Ean?)
I've hard work to swallow it but who knows ? A bit toospeculative.


Iconcludesaying Basques did not came from planet Mars – theircountry show influences of Megalithers and then from BBs - butkept more ancient auDNA and adopted more new North and East auDNAthan Spanyards, these last ones themselves less demicly neolithicizedandless « westasianized » thanother people of Mediterranea.

Fire Haired14
26-12-15, 23:58
In whichever case it is good to verify assumptions like that: check up the different make up between Austria and Hungary per example: things are not like that there.

True. I might check how similar Basque are to SW French.

MOESAN
27-12-15, 17:18
I resume myself:
-a pre-Neolithic imput a bit higher than among other Iberians: for the most from autochtonous people: so trace of a bit more isolation, confirmed by some phenotypic features due to endogamy
-neolithization by western 'mediterraneans' of today (in fact EEFlike) as the others all around
-some intriguing light imput from not-caucasus 'westasian': a small link with I-Eans or rather a big one because this component was only a small part among I-Ens of West? all the way this component went surely with some other EEF and other (W)HG in "I-Eans".
-the Chalcolithic period show people merely from "South", highly EEF too spite some variation: I 'm not sure of a direct filiation between these newcomers and today Basques, it's rather the Chalcolothic who took some DNA from preceding local people.
&: the apparently source position of Basques today compared to S-W Fance and the gentle doorstep are not the proof of them having populated recently SW France from Pyrenees: it could be the result In Gascogne-Guyenne ex Aquitania of a dilution of their same shared (already complexe) origin among other populations with time; the more abrupt doorstep with Iberians (and yet not so strong) could show their mixture arrived there from North and took lands without mixing to much with previous populations, at first; what doesn't mean they did not share ancient common ancestry as did the surroundings regions. Nothing against History, nothing against %s of Y and mt DNA, all showing kind of isolationS episodes. (in W-Pyreness at least at Mesolithic for a part and then after historic arrival* in Spain)*.
the Y-R1b-DF27 communauty centered around them is not the recent result of basquicization of their lands in Spain, but for the most the result of more global and ancient colonization of Spain across the Pyrenees they took their part from as SW French people did.

*: the all-public abstracts about Basques are not always reliable and I'm not a specialist of their languages. I lack the serious toponymic studies about the spread of basquic in ancient time: Vascones are mentioned in Iberia by Romans and they cited other tribes West of them, but the linguistic affinities of these last tribes are still debated. It could be that Southwestern Pyrenees were inhabited by basquic speaking populations since very more ancient times; the Northern part of Navarra has a marked majority of basque toponyms but are they all so ancient?
*;

berun
27-12-15, 19:57
the apparently source position of Basques today compared to S-W Fance and the gentle doorstep are not the proof of them having populated recently SW France from Pyrenees: it could be the result In Gascogne-Guyenne ex Aquitania of a dilution of their same shared (already complexe) origin among other populations with time;

The source position fits well with historical facts:

Grégoire de Tours, Histoire des Francs: editor J.-L.-L. Brière, Paris 1823. Volume II, Book IX, De l'année 587 à l'année 589. Gontran, Childebert II et Clotaire II, Rois page 8.
The Vascones rushing in from their mountains, descended to the plains, ravaging vineyards and farms, burning down houses, taking many captives and sheep. Duc Austrowald often triumphed against them, but he did not got much revenge from it.

The names are quite conclusive: the region was known as Aquitania but after this episode it changed name to Gascony (Wasconia).

I come to believe that the easiest the theory the more probable it is and in this case genes, names and descending vascones are supporting each other.

berun
27-12-15, 20:11
True. I might check how similar Basque are to SW French.

I think there is an study about French Basques, but in the same excel file given in the first post it's possible to get cases (NLA + SOU regions); from 119 samples there are 17 I-M26, 2 J-M267, 2 J-M410, 12 R-L21, 2 R-L48 (who is?), 33 R-M153, 35 R-P312, 9 R-SRY2627, the rest other haplos

berun
27-12-15, 20:19
Not very academic analisy but the difference between north and south Pyrenees is: south has x3 J-M410 and x2 R-L21; instead the north has 1/2 more than the south of R-M153 (but it is in the south where R-P312 has 1/3 more than north), for I-M26 it is 3 times more northener.

MOESAN
02-01-16, 23:56
The source position fits well with historical facts:

Grégoire de Tours, Histoire des Francs: editor J.-L.-L. Brière, Paris 1823. Volume II, Book IX, De l'année 587 à l'année 589. Gontran, Childebert II et Clotaire II, Rois page 8.
The Vascones rushing in from their mountains, descended to the plains, ravaging vineyards and farms, burning down houses, taking many captives and sheep. Duc Austrowald often triumphed against them, but he did not got much revenge from it.

The names are quite conclusive: the region was known as Aquitania but after this episode it changed name to Gascony (Wasconia).

I come to believe that the easiest the theory the more probable it is and in this case genes, names and descending vascones are supporting each other.

You and Gregoire did not lie! But the related facts are "young" compared to Basque genesis. The more accepted theory is Vascones came from Aquitania: the Ausci tribes in Aquitania could very well be the origin of the basque endonym EUSKARI and exonym VASCONES/VASQUES/BASQUES, GWASCONIA/GASCOGNE (NF Gasc dimin. Gasquet, Gâcoin = Gascon, Gwaskogn in breton).
/ ?/awsk-/ >> ewsk-/: >< /wask-
So the simplest is not always the most true.the story of Y-Haplo's is not simple in Northern Pyrenees near Basque country: Celts and Germans came there, settled and/or crossed the mountains passes a lot of times.Look at the maps of Maciamo about Y-Haplo (Bigorre in S-E Gascogne, a bit special, not coining the Basque mean).

berun
03-01-16, 07:03
Vascologist are thinking different:

enuskara or *enuskera, derived from the verb *enau(t)si 'say' with the same adverbial suffix -(k)ara (-like),

You have also erdara 'foreigner'

For the ausci there are given some IE etymologies. I think one related to *aus- 'ear'

MOESAN
03-01-16, 20:34
I can accept 'enuskara' for 'euskara' if the intervocalic '-N-' falls between vowels, what I ignore; it occurred among Galaico-Portuguese languages as in Gascogne dialects I could accept it spite 'N' is conserved in the words used for your demonstration, if I consider fixed ethnic and personal names can be deformed easier than common words (it's the case in Brittany where names of towns are reduced to kind of "pet names" in colloquial language spoken by illitterate people, loosing the basic form and meaning of the words having served to compose them. Concerning 'erdara', sorry I can't see any phonetic link. All the way etymologies of ancient names are very often subjects to contestation.

other aspect of the question: a survey about today Basque people mt DNA have shown that the specific mt (local subclades of mt-H for the most) of Spain Basques decrease dramatically in Spain around Basque country outside the ancient borders were basque language is historically attested when at the contrary they can be found at some degree in S-W France (Gascogne) outside the France Basque country. I cannot find the abstract but I' ll try to do it: it's better read oneself rather than rely upon other eyes. That said it confirms the autosomals survey made in France not too long ago, which shows the gradual influences of Basques upon S-W French people West the Garonne river when this influence is close to 0 in S-E France even in close languedoc.

berun
03-01-16, 22:48
Yes. Basque lost -n- as can be seen in latin loanwords

For erdara it shares the same ending that euskara (-like)

MOESAN
04-01-16, 00:02
OK for the ending but endings are not roots; but I think I now understand why you put this : an ethnics formation?

here under, better than my "raccourci", a bit of the full abstract I spoke about; principally mt DNA but reference to Y DNA too :


AmJ Hum Genet. 2012 Mar 9; 90(3): 486–493.doi: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2012.01.002 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.ajhg.2012.01.002)
PMCID: PMC3309182TheBasque Paradigm: Genetic Evidence of a Maternal Continuity in theFranco-Cantabrian Region since Pre-Neolithic Times


Doron M.Behar (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Behar%20D%5Bauth%5D),1,2 ChristineHarmant (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Harmant%20C%5Bauth%5D),1,3 JeremyManry (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Manry%20J%5Bauth%5D),1,3 Mannisvan Oven (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=van%26%23x000a0%3BOven%20M%5Bauth%5D),4 WolfgangHaak (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Haak%20W%5Bauth%5D),5 BegoñaMartinez-Cruz (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Martinez-Cruz%20B%5Bauth%5D),6 JasoneSalaberria (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Salaberria%20J%5Bauth%5D),7 BernardOyharçabal (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Oyhar%26%23x000e7%3Babal%20B%5Bauth%5D),7 FrédéricBauduer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bauduer%20F%5Bauth%5D),8 DavidComas (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Comas%20D%5Bauth%5D),6 LluisQuintana-Murci (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Quintana-Murci%20L%5Bauth%5D),1,3,∗ andThe Genographic Consortium9Authorinformation ► (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#)Articlenotes ► (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#)Copyrightand License information ► (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#)





[---Themost dominant H haplogroup of the Franco-Cantabrian region is H1j1,which accounts for 12.4% of haplogroup H variation of our data set(Figure S1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).This haplogroup has only been observed in four previously reportedindividuals of Basque origin (D.M.B., unpublished data).43 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib43) Likewise,haplogroup H1t1, which explains 8.1% of haplogroup H variation,displays its highest frequencies in the Basque-speaking populationsfrom France and Spain, and has been previously observed only amongBasques (Figure S2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).32 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib32)HaplogroupH2a5 accounted for 5.2% of haplogroup H variation. Here, we havefurther resolved the phylogeny of H2a5, now termed H2a5a1, and allpreviously reported individuals carrying this haplogroup34,44 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib34) belongindeed to the herein refined H2a5a1a (Figure S3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).Haplogroup H1av1, which accounts for 4% of H haplogroup variation,has been found so far only in our data set and its distribution isrestricted to Basque-speaking populations and immediately adjacentSpanish-speaking populations (Figure S4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).Finally, haplogroups H3c2a (Figure S5 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2))and H1e1a1 (Figure S6 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)),which explain 3.3% and 2.9% of haplogroup H variation, respectively,have each been observed only once in a composite sample fromSpain.13 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib13) Overall,the exclusive geographic distribution of H1j1, H1t1, H2a5a1, H1av1,H3c2a, and H1e1a1 among Basque-speaking populations and immediatelyadjacent populations and their absence from a large data set ofpopulations of western European-descent strongly suggest that thesehaplogroups are indeed autochthonous to the region.Furthermore,significant matrilineal structure within this geographic region wasobserved in our database. The frequency of haplogroup H per se wasnot significantly different between the six geographic zones (Table1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/table/tbl1/)),indicating that the mere comparison of low-resolved haplogroups isnot informative enough to detect fine population structure. However,the proportions of the autochthonous haplogroups varied dramatically,and significantly, between Basque- and non-Basque-speaking regions(χ2 test, p < 0.01). These six haplogroups accountedcumulatively for 44%–54% of the total haplogroup H variation amongBasque-speaking populations from France and Spain (zones B and D),whereas only for 10%–14% among Spanish-speaking regions (zones Eand F) (Table1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/table/tbl1/)).Intermediate frequencies of ∼28% were observed in French-speakingregions and in Spanish regions that historically spoke Basque (zonesA and C). The somewhat closer affinity between French speakers (i.e.,Gascons) and Basque speakers than between Spanish speakers and Basquespeakers is concordant with previous observations based on the Ychromosome.25,26 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib25)--- ]

nos vad deoc'h

MOESAN
04-01-16, 00:06
[---Themost dominant H haplogroup of the Franco-Cantabrian region is H1j1,which accounts for 12.4% of haplogroup H variation of our data set(Figure S1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).This haplogroup has only been observed in four previously reportedindividuals of Basque origin (D.M.B., unpublished data).43 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib43) Likewise,haplogroup H1t1, which explains 8.1% of haplogroup H variation,displays its highest frequencies in the Basque-speaking populationsfrom France and Spain, and has been previously observed only amongBasques (Figure S2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).32 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib32)HaplogroupH2a5 accounted for 5.2% of haplogroup H variation. Here, we havefurther resolved the phylogeny of H2a5, now termed H2a5a1, and allpreviously reported individuals carrying this haplogroup34,44 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib34) belongindeed to the herein refined H2a5a1a (Figure S3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).Haplogroup H1av1, which accounts for 4% of H haplogroup variation,has been found so far only in our data set and its distribution isrestricted to Basque-speaking populations and immediately adjacentSpanish-speaking populations (Figure S4 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)).Finally, haplogroups H3c2a (Figure S5 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2))and H1e1a1 (Figure S6 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#app2)),which explain 3.3% and 2.9% of haplogroup H variation, respectively,have each been observed only once in a composite sample fromSpain.13 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib13) Overall,the exclusive geographic distribution of H1j1, H1t1, H2a5a1, H1av1,H3c2a, and H1e1a1 among Basque-speaking populations and immediatelyadjacent populations and their absence from a large data set ofpopulations of western European-descent strongly suggest that thesehaplogroups are indeed autochthonous to the region.Furthermore,significant matrilineal structure within this geographic region wasobserved in our database. The frequency of haplogroup H per se wasnot significantly different between the six geographic zones (Table1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/table/tbl1/)),indicating that the mere comparison of low-resolved haplogroups isnot informative enough to detect fine population structure. However,the proportions of the autochthonous haplogroups varied dramatically,and significantly, between Basque- and non-Basque-speaking regions(χ2 test, p < 0.01). These six haplogroups accountedcumulatively for 44%–54% of the total haplogroup H variation amongBasque-speaking populations from France and Spain (zones B and D),whereas only for 10%–14% among Spanish-speaking regions (zones Eand F) (Table1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/table/tbl1/)).Intermediate frequencies of ∼28% were observed in French-speakingregions and in Spanish regions that historically spoke Basque (zonesA and C). The somewhat closer affinity between French speakers (i.e.,Gascons) and Basque speakers than between Spanish speakers and Basquespeakers is concordant with previous observations based on the Ychromosome.25,26 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309182/#bib25)--- ]

MOESAN
04-01-16, 00:06
I 've some problem with my last 2 posts - sorry - could you fix that???

Greying Wanderer
04-01-16, 17:24
Couple of thoughts

1. Disconnect of language and genetics: People from the same region as IE but themselves possibly PIE, or even pre PIE so the genetics is detached from other aspects of IE, traveling as a minority group along the pre-existing Cardial / Megalith routes around the coasts either with a pre PIE language or adopting the language of the Cardial / Megalith culture along the way. Some combination of those things might explain a possible disconnect between the genetics and language / culture.

2. Military advantage of materials shift: I don't know for sure but although copper weapons may have had some military advantage over stone, being such a soft metal i'd imagine it would blunt fast and mostly suited to daggers and small axe heads. However it seems to me bronze weapons would be a definite game changer both as weapons and armor - could copper or stone weapons even penetrate a bronze shield?

So I think the tribes who got access to plentiful bronze weaponry earliest might have had an extreme advantage for a while (hence imo all the myths about dwarves and cyclops etc providing magic weapons) and which tribes would be the first to get plentiful bronze weapons? The metal workers in regions with copper-bronze or access to tin.