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Tomenable
28-12-15, 12:33
Soon a study with Epipaleolithic and Neolithic samples from Kamarband/Belt and Hotu/Huto caves will most likely be published:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huto_and_Kamarband_Caves

Location of these caves near the Caspian Sea (4 and 5):

http://www.michaelwgregg.com/ArchSci/Welcome_files/Mesolithic-Neolithic%20cave%20map.jpg

These are caves located in Northern Iran close to the southern coast of the Caspian Sea. I think there might be some R1 hg.

This is roughly the same area where Underhill found several out of 24 of most basal R1a (R1a-M420*) modern samples in 2014:


(...) Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey (...) Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a. (...) Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. (...)

Most likely they will find also J, and maybe some R1* or R1b. Perhaps it will also explain some links between CHG, EHG and ANE.

What do you think? Any speculations or guesses? :grin:

Tomenable
28-12-15, 12:49
More about those caves can be found for example here:

http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/PDFs/11-2/A%20Decade.pdf

And it seems that those caves were inhabited also much earlier (but I don't know if they are testing also these most ancient samples):

http://www.rarenewspapers.com/view/585765

bicicleur
28-12-15, 14:20
this area was inhabited since 14-15 ka
it is speculated to be have been an early R1a and/or R1b area
I think that is likely, and I don't realy expect any other clades than R and Q(xQ1a)
of course, if they find other clades it will be very interesting to learn
any idea when results will be published?

LeBrok
28-12-15, 18:42
Looks like LGM refugium. Place to find ancient R1s pushed down from Siberia. By Neolithic we should see mostly R1b there, but by Bronze Age mostly R1a Z93 moving down to the Middle East.

bicicleur
28-12-15, 19:27
not LGM, afaik only since 15 ka it was populated
IMO they came from the east, from north of the Hindu Kush and
after the youngest dryas (12.7-11.6 ka) they started to expand into eastern Europe along the big streams (Ural, Volga, Don, Dnjepr, ..)
that is where some J joined them

holderlin
31-12-15, 21:47
My official call is no R1.

I think these are CHG J's just like the caucuses.