PDA

View Full Version : Evidence for Early Pleistocene Afro-Iberian dispersals



Ziober
13-01-16, 13:04
That's it!

7601

English L. press:
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/winter-2015-2016/article/latest-study-suggests-early-human-dispersal-into-spain-through-strait-of-gibraltar

Spanish L. press:
http://terraeantiqvae.com/profiles/blogs/un-ultimo-estudio-sugiere-que-humanos-arcaicos-se-dispersaron-por#.VpYt1H12HNd

Article (English):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248415001967

Greying Wanderer
13-01-16, 22:03
cool, always seemed likely to me there would have been a flow up the atlantic coast as well - maybe smaller than the main one but there

LeBrok
14-01-16, 03:03
That's what I thought looking at admixtures of Mesolithic hunter gatherers from Iberia. There must have been contact with contemporary hunters from Africa. I wasn't sure if the contact happened in Iberia by new arrivals from Africa or in Marocco by Iberian HGs going back and forth during last LGM period, looking for a refugium. This African signal was also present in Swedish HG too, carried there by HGs after glacials were gone.

MOESAN
16-01-16, 15:41
That's what I thought looking at admixtures of Mesolithic hunter gatherers from Iberia. There must have been contact with contemporary hunters from Africa. I wasn't sure if the contact happened in Iberia by new arrivals from Africa or in Marocco by Iberian HGs going back and forth during last LGM period, looking for a refugium. This African signal was also present in Swedish HG too, carried there by HGs after glacials were gone.

Nothing impossible (why?)
But let's keep in mind the admixtures results at EurogenesK15, DodecadK12 and DodecadV3 which showed all of them some African component in Ust'Ishim and Kostenki14 (+ some % of Oceanian): Ust'Ushim seems old enough for not having been influenced by post LGM recolonization of Northern Lands (U'I showed from 8,35% to 16,30% of something African (North, Subsaharian, Paleo-) according to calculators. Some Archaic African remnants in genome??? Mal'ta was more Eastern, so this can explains his very insignifiant % of "african" DNA; but a sa whole the results show also a decreasing gradiant of African or Oceanian DNA as time passed... Maybe I 'm confused
?

LeBrok
17-01-16, 03:36
Nothing impossible (why?)
But let's keep in mind the admixtures results at EurogenesK15, DodecadK12 and DodecadV3 which showed all of them some African component in Ust'Ishim and Kostenki14 (+ some % of Oceanian): Ust'Ushim seems old enough for not having been influenced by post LGM recolonization of Northern Lands (U'I showed from 8,35% to 16,30% of something African (North, Subsaharian, Paleo-) according to calculators. Some Archaic African remnants in genome??? Mal'ta was more Eastern, so this can explains his very insignifiant % of "african" DNA; but a sa whole the results show also a decreasing gradiant of African or Oceanian DNA as time passed... Maybe I 'm confused
?
I think the older samples show archaic African admixture, or perhaps Kostenki14 shows contemporary to him migration from Africa to this region.
However in case of Iberian post Glacial period show new admixture, I think. I'm saying that because they plot on PCA towards Africa, more south than other HGs, unlike Koestenki and others more ancient. Can't find the best PCA, (maybe later):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-43E4svnkMzs/Vh5zRmfJ1zI/AAAAAAAADNA/65q0gGxhJcE/s1600/PCA.png

epoch
17-01-16, 08:17
The African - and possibly some of the Oceanian - admixture in paleolithic AMH sample doesn't show up in D-stats. If one adds a Neandertal or Denisovan genome to an admixture run it will show almost completely African while being absolutely different from them and having absolutely no admixture (See Genetikers runs for examples). This is simply shared ancestral, i.e. SNPs that did not yet changed in the older genomes. That is why older genomes are more likely to have a tad more of this "admixture". See Oase 1 in Davids K15 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/06/oase-1-early-modern-human-from-romania.html), and check against Oase 1's D-stats (https://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2015_Nature_Fu_Oase.pdf) in the paper (table S3.1) which show it to be really un-African.

See also this: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2015/05/03/snp-confusion/

epoch
17-01-16, 09:38
That's it!

7601

English L. press:
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/winter-2015-2016/article/latest-study-suggests-early-human-dispersal-into-spain-through-strait-of-gibraltar

Spanish L. press:
http://terraeantiqvae.com/profiles/blogs/un-ultimo-estudio-sugiere-que-humanos-arcaicos-se-dispersaron-por#.VpYt1H12HNd

Article (English):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047248415001967


This is very interesting because some consider the dispersal of humans, AMH and Flores man, across the Wallace line proof of boating. The monkey find at least shows that other ways to cross a strait exist. And maybe this puts Homo Antecessor in a different perspective. Chris Stringer brought up Homo Antecessor as possible source for the strange mtDNA in the Sima del Huesos sample.

bicicleur
17-01-16, 10:12
That's what I thought looking at admixtures of Mesolithic hunter gatherers from Iberia. There must have been contact with contemporary hunters from Africa. I wasn't sure if the contact happened in Iberia by new arrivals from Africa or in Marocco by Iberian HGs going back and forth during last LGM period, looking for a refugium. This African signal was also present in Swedish HG too, carried there by HGs after glacials were gone.

The paleolithic and mesolithic HG in Europe never came into contact with the humans described in this study, for the simple fact that they were extinct. They were replaced by Neanderthals before modern humans arrived in Europe. And the common ancestor of modern humans and Neanderthals is only about 500.000 years old.

epoch
17-01-16, 11:42
cool, always seemed likely to me there would have been a flow up the atlantic coast as well - maybe smaller than the main one but there

A million years ago mankind was far less adapted to the cold. There is no evidence H. Erectus - or any of the hominids that are contemporary to H. Erectus, if you are a splitter rather than a lumper - had clothes. I think that limits the ability to go north. Although the Dmanisi Homo Erectus must have seen winter.

MOESAN
17-01-16, 13:51
I think the older samples show archaic African admixture, or perhaps Kostenki14 shows contemporary to him migration from Africa to this region.
However in case of Iberian post Glacial period show new admixture, I think. I'm saying that because they plot on PCA towards Africa, more south than other HGs, unlike Koestenki and others more ancient. Can't find the best PCA, (maybe later):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-43E4svnkMzs/Vh5zRmfJ1zI/AAAAAAAADNA/65q0gGxhJcE/s1600/PCA.png
plottings are plottings, with their proper accuracy and inaccuracy- in this one, which is very useful for Europeans, there is no SSA African to make comparisons.
at the opposite, some admixture calculators as in GENETIKER showed some SSA among Chalcolithic or EBA people (even in Sintashta). Reality or errors of calculators?

ElHorsto
17-01-16, 16:14
I think the older samples show archaic African admixture, or perhaps Kostenki14 shows contemporary to him migration from Africa to this region.
However in case of Iberian post Glacial period show new admixture, I think. I'm saying that because they plot on PCA towards Africa, more south than other HGs, unlike Koestenki and others more ancient. Can't find the best PCA, (maybe later):
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-43E4svnkMzs/Vh5zRmfJ1zI/AAAAAAAADNA/65q0gGxhJcE/s1600/PCA.png

We have to distinguish North-African and SSA. If I recall correctly, the SSA admixture in La Brana - if real - was East African. Anyway, the WGH-SHG-EHG continuum is certainly not defined by degrees of SSA admixture.

LeBrok
17-01-16, 19:23
plottings are plottings, with their proper accuracy and inaccuracy- in this one, which is very useful for Europeans, there is no SSA African to make comparisons.
at the opposite, some admixture calculators as in GENETIKER showed some SSA among Chalcolithic or EBA people (even in Sintashta). Reality or errors of calculators?

Sure, I don't claim it as a fact, just what I see from couple of clues.

bicicleur
17-01-16, 20:31
This is very interesting because some consider the dispersal of humans, AMH and Flores man, across the Wallace line proof of boating. The monkey find at least shows that other ways to cross a strait exist. And maybe this puts Homo Antecessor in a different perspective. Chris Stringer brought up Homo Antecessor as possible source for the strange mtDNA in the Sima del Huesos sample.

Sima de Los Huesos has a common ancestor with Denisovans
that makes an entry through the Levant and subsequent split between Sima de Los Huesos and Denisovans more likely

bicicleur
17-01-16, 20:58
That's what I thought looking at admixtures of Mesolithic hunter gatherers from Iberia. There must have been contact with contemporary hunters from Africa. I wasn't sure if the contact happened in Iberia by new arrivals from Africa or in Marocco by Iberian HGs going back and forth during last LGM period, looking for a refugium. This African signal was also present in Swedish HG too, carried there by HGs after glacials were gone.

the Iberomaurusian would be a possibility
it was in the Atlas Mts, but would also have had a spillover in Iberia

epoch
17-01-16, 21:59
Sima de Los Huesos has a common ancestor with Denisovans
that makes an entry through the Levant and subsequent split between Sima de Los Huesos and Denisovans more likely

Sima de los Huesos mtDNA showed that. Two sequenced autosomal genomes show these to be roughly half way (David Reichs words) of becoming Neandertals [1]. These samples were considered Homo Heidelbergensis. Now, either that consideration is wrong or Heidelberg man wasn't the forefather of Neandertals and AMH but already halfway Neandertal. In the last case H. Antecessor could come into view as last common ancestor. Which would be very interesting. The teeth of Denisovans do resemble an Indonesian H. Erectus. What if both Denisovans and H. Antecessor are evolved H. Erectus?

Also, we seem to get new reports of an active human population (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160113-stone-tool-sulawesi-hobbit-flores-archaeology/) 120.000-190.000 years old in Sulawesi (http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/archaeology/early/indonesia/van-den-burgh-sulawesi-talepu-2016.html), across the Wallace line that is. All peoples with substantial Denisovan admixture seem to live across the Wallace line as well. See also this post: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31874-Wallace-Line-and-Denisovan-Admixture and this article: https://www.academia.edu/4860959/Did_the_Denisovans_Cross_Wallaces_Line

[1] The official paper hasn't been published yet.

Greying Wanderer
18-01-16, 20:31
A million years ago mankind was far less adapted to the cold. There is no evidence H. Erectus - or any of the hominids that are contemporary to H. Erectus, if you are a splitter rather than a lumper - had clothes. I think that limits the ability to go north. Although the Dmanisi Homo Erectus must have seen winter.

could be but from Tierra del Fuego

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#Adaptations_to_climate


They were famed for their complete indifference to the bitter weather around Cape Horn.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#cite_note-8) Although they had fire and small domed shelters, they routinely went about completely naked in the frigid cold and biting wind of Tierra del Fuego. Women swam in its 48-degree-south (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/48th_parallel_south) waters hunting for shellfish.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#cite_note-9) They often were observed to sleep in the open, completely unsheltered and unclothed, while Europeans shivered under blankets.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#cite_note-m134-5) A Chilean researcher claimed their average body temperature was warmer than a European's by at least one degree.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#cite_note-Murphy_140-7)

The bit about higher metabolism is interesting. IIRC metabolism is connected to mtdna.

RobertColumbia
19-01-16, 02:50
could be but from Tierra del Fuego

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#Adaptations_to_climate



The bit about higher metabolism is interesting. IIRC metabolism is connected to mtdna.

That's quite interesting. Thanks! Perhaps this could be investigated today by testing the cold tolerance of people with various mtDNA haplogroups.

On a more personal note, I don't have a cold-tolerance "score" (does a rating scale even exist?), but many people who know me tell me that I have an above-average cold tolerance. Has anyone found a connection between mtDNA H and cold tolerance?

LeBrok
19-01-16, 05:46
I don't have cold tolerance. I prefer warm and hot weather to cold one, and I don't sweat much.

Greying Wanderer
19-01-16, 19:12
That's quite interesting. Thanks! Perhaps this could be investigated today by testing the cold tolerance of people with various mtDNA haplogroups.

On a more personal note, I don't have a cold-tolerance "score" (does a rating scale even exist?), but many people who know me tell me that I have an above-average cold tolerance. Has anyone found a connection between mtDNA H and cold tolerance?


I've only skim read this stuff so only throwing it out as an interesting idea but for example

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586348


Common African haplogroups L0, L2 and L3 had significantly lower RMRs than European haplogroups H, JT and UK with haplogroup L1 RMR being intermediate to these groups. This study links mitochondrial haplogroups with ancestry-associated differences in metabolic rate and energy expenditure.

LeBrok
19-01-16, 19:34
I've only skim read this stuff so only throwing it out as an interesting idea but for example

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586348

A while ago I was musing about role of Mt DNA and it's role in cold and hot climates:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29376-Mt-DNA-and-energy-production-Do-Mt-U-people-love-to-suntan

Angela
19-01-16, 20:00
A while ago I was musing about role of Mt DNA and it's role in cold and hot climates:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29376-Mt-DNA-and-energy-production-Do-Mt-U-people-love-to-suntan

I'm mtDna U2e, and obviously so was my mother, and yet our tolerances for heat and humidity were diametrically opposed. It was never too hot for my mother, and high humidity had barely any effect on her. She also absolutely loved sunbathing, although she rarely indulged in it because she was always working.

As for me, it depends, as Maciamo said, where I am. My idea of hell is a humid Florida summer (all of the southeast in fact) and the American midwest at any time of year, because it's freezing cold and humid in the winter and broiling hot and humid in the summer, and the other two seasons barely exist. (Parts of Italy are like that too in certain areas like the Po Valley or even the area around Firenze for example; it might not snow as much, but constant low temperatures and rain can be very unpleasant. ) My preference is a Mediterranean, dry climate, but even then I really don't like it when it gets too hot, and although I love the sensation of the sun on my skin, more than an hour or so of sunbathing can lead to sunburns and even sun poisoning, so I run from shade to shade. I used to blame all this on my father and his Alpine genes. He'd start moaning at the fist warm day after spring ended. :)

So, I think it's more complicated than just the mtDna. It might be overall adaptation to climate, perhaps?

LeBrok
20-01-16, 04:34
I'm mtDna U2e, and obviously so was my mother, and yet our tolerances for heat and humidity were diametrically opposed. It was never too hot for my mother, and high humidity had barely any effect on her. She also absolutely loved sunbathing, although she rarely indulged in it because she was always working.

As for me, it depends, as Maciamo said, where I am. My idea of hell is a humid Florida summer (all of the southeast in fact) and the American midwest at any time of year, because it's freezing cold and humid in the winter and broiling hot and humid in the summer, and the other two seasons barely exist. (Parts of Italy are like that too in certain areas like the Po Valley or even the area around Firenze for example; it might not snow as much, but constant low temperatures and rain can be very unpleasant. ) My preference is a Mediterranean, dry climate, but even then I really don't like it when it gets too hot, and although I love the sensation of the sun on my skin, more than an hour or so of sunbathing can lead to sunburns and even sun poisoning, so I run from shade to shade. I used to blame all this on my father and his Alpine genes. He'd start moaning at the fist warm day after spring ended. :)

So, I think it's more complicated than just the mtDna. It might be overall adaptation to climate, perhaps?
I dwelled on the subject but couldn't find anything obvious. This story is complicated, as you noticed, and advantages of Mt DNA in relation to energy production not very pronounced to catch it with a naked eye.

Angela
20-01-16, 04:51
I dwelled on the subject but couldn't find anything obvious. This story is complicated, as you noticed, and advantages of Mt DNA in relation to energy production not very pronounced to catch it with a naked eye.

Well, U2e must be maladapted in some way, because we barely make a blip anywhere.

LeBrok
20-01-16, 05:09
Well, U2e must be maladapted in some way, because we barely make a blip anywhere. Don't despair, maybe its best days are still to come. :)

Angela
20-01-16, 05:40
Don't despair, maybe its best days are still to come. :)

Well, it won't be due to the women of my maternal line. We get hives at the thought of more than two or three children. :)

LeBrok
20-01-16, 09:10
Well, it won't be due to the women of my maternal line. We get hives at the thought of more than two or three children. :) Oh, if this sits on Mt DNA then we might have a problem. ;)

epoch
20-01-16, 10:54
It will be quite interesting to see the genome of the Sima de los Huesos samples. First, how related are they to Denisovans. Secondly, it would be interesting to see if they have either Denisovan admixture or share the 10% admixture that Denisovans received from a mystery population. As we already have been granted a glimpse into the results being that these samples are halfway Neanderthals there has to be an admixture event that brought the Denisovan mtDNA into these proto-Neanderthals.

epoch
20-01-16, 14:41
could be but from Tierra del Fuego

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaghan_people#Adaptations_to_climate



The bit about higher metabolism is interesting. IIRC metabolism is connected to mtdna.

Aborginals, while AHM still our best proxy for all paleolithic hominids, also were know to sleep naked outside even during frost nights. From the book The Original Australians. Furthermore it is noticeable that Tibetans have a height adaptation gene received from Denisovans that influences metabolism rather than increase hemoglobin content.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/07/tibetans-inherited-high-altitude-gene-ancient-human

Greying Wanderer
21-01-16, 00:35
Well, U2e must be maladapted in some way, because we barely make a blip anywhere.

Perfect for Mars maybe ;)

Greying Wanderer
21-01-16, 00:38
Aborginals, while AHM still our best proxy for all paleolithic hominids, also were know to sleep naked outside even during frost nights. From the book The Original Australians. Furthermore it is noticeable that Tibetans have a height adaptation gene received from Denisovans that influences metabolism rather than increase hemoglobin content.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/07/tibetans-inherited-high-altitude-gene-ancient-human

Yes, cold desert nights.