R1b question...and my first post!

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daihatsu

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Goodmorning,

First of all I would like to introduce myself a little. I am adopted and I already know my biological mother. My biological father is not known.. Since I live, I always wanted to know my ancestry. It feels like a gap that I do not have this information.

I have tested at Consanguinitas in The Netherlands, but I feel not happy about my results. I mean, it was kind of expensive and I only got a very basic test. I want to do further testing, but I would like to know if my results can say something about my subclade or countries of origin.

My question...is there somebody who can give me some details based on the information I have?

My Haplogroups is R1B. Below are my results:
DYS456= 15
DYS389I=13
DYS390= 25
DYS389II= 29
DYS458= 16
DYS19= 14
DYS385= 12, 14
DYS393= 13
DYS391= 10
DYS439= 13
DYS635= 24
DYS392= 13
YGATAH4= 11
DYS437= 15
DYS438= 12
DYS448= 18

Thank you in advance for your effort and replies!

Greetings from Holland! :)
 
That's not a lot to go on, but you match a couple of L21 guys from England I was just looking at.

Haplogroup-R1b-L21.jpg
 
Welcome to Eupedia Daihatsu.
 
Thanks for your replies! L21 seems very British to me. It is hard to understand, because I do not have a British look :). Some way I feel connection with Eastern European countries, since my childhood. Some results point at that direction, DYS390=25. My DYS393=13, which could indicate AMH (HT15). But there are some values different, which overturn that.
 
Welcome! I put your data into nevgen.org and got the following results:

R1b-L21 North Atlantic 48.3%
R1b P312/S116* WesternEuropean 21.7%
R1b DF27/S250 Ibero-Atlantic 16%
R1b U152/S28 Italo-Gaulish 10.1%
R1b U106/S21 Proto-Germanic 2.3%
R1b Z2103>L584 1.3%
R1b Z2103>Z2106 0.3%

It looks like you are probably R-L21, which is generally associated with Celtic areas and heritage. I am also an R-L21 (with downstream mutation M222), but that doesn't mean we are closely related, as the L21 mutation is thousands of years old.
 
daihatsu said:
L21 seems very British to me. It is hard to understand, because I do not have a British look :)
Click to expand...

Sure, but keep in mind that that it only takes one guy to make you L21. By that, I mean you could be entirely Dutch (or Polish, or Italian, or whatever) and if some Irish sailor or English merchant or whatever had a son a thousand years ago in the Netherlands, and that son married a local, and so on for a thousand years, you'd end up with a predominantly-Celtic haplogroup whilst not being terribly British at all. :)

Iceland is pretty Norse, after all, but something like 20% of men there carry L21. Additionally, I find it highly likely that some variants of L21 have lived among predominantly-Germanic cultures for thousands of years, thus accounting for some of its continental distribution.
 
daihatsu said:
Goodmorning,

First of all I would like to introduce myself a little. I am adopted and I already know my biological mother. My biological father is not known.. Since I live, I always wanted to know my ancestry. It feels like a gap that I do not have this information.

I have tested at Consanguinitas in The Netherlands, but I feel not happy about my results. I mean, it was kind of expensive and I only got a very basic test. I want to do further testing, but I would like to know if my results can say something about my subclade or countries of origin.

My question...is there somebody who can give me some details based on the information I have?

My Haplogroups is R1B. Below are my results:
DYS456= 15
DYS389I=13
DYS390= 25
DYS389II= 29
DYS458= 16
DYS19= 14
DYS385= 12, 14
DYS393= 13
DYS391= 10
DYS439= 13
DYS635= 24
DYS392= 13
YGATAH4= 11
DYS437= 15
DYS438= 12
DYS448= 18

Thank you in advance for your effort and replies!

Greetings from Holland! :)
Click to expand...

I would recommend one of the R1b SNP tests for more information. You don't quite match the N-S haplotype, but you do have its rare DYS448 value. Due to all sorts of STR overlap amongst the R1b subgroups, it's impossible to determine your terminal branch without SNP information.
 
Good morning to you all!

Many thanks again for the new replies! This is very helpful to me, thanks! I have seen in Ysearch that most R1b have the DYS385= 11,15 (or other values, compared to my 12,14. This in combination with the DYS393=13 and DYS390=25. I have tried to search for information about DYS448 in combination with DYS437, but so far no result.

Have a nice day!
 
Athiudisc said:
Sure, but keep in mind that that it only takes one guy to make you L21. By that, I mean you could be entirely Dutch (or Polish, or Italian, or whatever) and if some Irish sailor or English merchant or whatever had a son a thousand years ago in the Netherlands, and that son married a local, and so on for a thousand years, you'd end up with a predominantly-Celtic haplogroup whilst not being terribly British at all. :)

Iceland is pretty Norse, after all, but something like 20% of men there carry L21. Additionally, I find it highly likely that some variants of L21 have lived among predominantly-Germanic cultures for thousands of years, thus accounting for some of its continental distribution.
Click to expand...

I rather disagree with you on this last point. L21 is old enough to precede the very germanic language formation and its today distribution doesn't confirm Germanics genealogy even on the continent. Its presence in Southwestern Norway could be due to I-E but non-Germanics settlements of Bronze Age before Germanic cristallization which apparently took foot around Denmark Southern Scandinavia Northern Germany. Of course being present before full Germanic "birth" doesn't mean it could not have taken part in it, but the geographical distribution doesn't seem to check the supposed craddle. Surely ancient DNA could tell us more?
 
Ancient DNA can always tell us more. :) I tend to think much of the L21 in Norway is the result of slavery, but that wouldn't account for its continental distribution.
 
MOESAN said:
I rather disagree with you on this last point. L21 is old enough to precede the very germanic language formation and its today distribution doesn't confirm Germanics genealogy even on the continent. Its presence in Southwestern Norway could be due to I-E but non-Germanics settlements of Bronze Age before Germanic cristallization which apparently took foot around Denmark Southern Scandinavia Northern Germany. Of course being present before full Germanic "birth" doesn't mean it could not have taken part in it, but the geographical distribution doesn't seem to check the supposed craddle. Surely ancient DNA could tell us more?
Click to expand...

Athiudisc said:
Ancient DNA can always tell us more. :) I tend to think much of the L21 in Norway is the result of slavery, but that wouldn't account for its continental distribution.
Click to expand...


Has the diversity of L21 in Iceland been compared with its diversity in the British Isles and elsewhere? One would expect a low diversity to represent fairly recent (e.g. medieval) settlement of Celtic peoples, possibly as slaves, while a great diversity would be more likely to represent ancient settlement that could predate any notion of Celticness or Germanicness. A similar process has been used to determine that R1b spread from east to west - because while there is more R1b in Western Europe, it has greater diversity in the east.
 
Good question, Robert. I'm not having much luck finding details on Icelandic L21.
 
except we find Y-R1b is older in W-Europe than we believe, I doubt first R-L21 could be older than Western I-Eans. But?... That said, Irish people discovered Iceland before Vikings, but when exactly? Did they follow predecessors there? L21 in SW Norway could easily be I-E pre-Germanics, maybe already proto-Celtic; could they explain a lot of the Iceland R-L21 after their integration within norse culture<?? As some said before, we need more precise subclades
 
MOESAN said:
except we find Y-R1b is older in W-Europe than we believe, I doubt first R-L21 could be older than Western I-Eans. But?... That said, Irish people discovered Iceland before Vikings, but when exactly? Did they follow predecessors there? L21 in SW Norway could easily be I-E pre-Germanics, maybe already proto-Celtic; could they explain a lot of the Iceland R-L21 after their integration within norse culture<?? As some said before, we need more precise subclades
Click to expand...

It's possible that the L21 has several different origins. Some could be pre-Celtic, some could be pre-Viking Celts who remained, and some could be from Celtic slaves taken to Iceland later.
 
As I said in other thread, I doubt about dense births upon slave males, whatever the country. If Slaves had been so fruitful concerning posterity it would not have been so necessery to make so much slaves all the time? All the way I doubt the most of L21 of Western Norway would have been Irish slaves descendants.
your pre-Vikings doesn't contradict my possible pre-germanic I-Ean (or even pre-I-Ean??? less credible); OK for that. All that doesn't exclude L21 of Irish AND Scottish origin, BUT with the statut of Vikings. We know some Gaels after first very hard contacts with Vikings became their "friends or war". Someones could have acquired later the "Icelandish nationality" and come "back" to Western Norway...Nothing too impossible, I think.
 
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