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View Full Version : C.S. Coons Races of Europe 2.0 or E1b1b1a3 in Northwestern Europe...



Northener
31-01-16, 19:51
Because of my E-V22 YDNA some people ask me: 'How do you think your paternal line arrived in your recorded homes of paternal ancestry?'

That's my key question, my known lineage goes back to seventeenth century Friesland. As far as I know my oldest ancestors were farmers/sailors in Wartena in the centre of Friesland. They had typical Frisian names like Haije or Fokke. So the surface looks very Frisian. So E-V22 is for Friesland (mostly very Nordic types) at least a bit surprising, until now non-existing in the tests.....

This goes for whole Northwestern Europe, 'we' are white ravens there, in Scandinavia non existent, in Germany few of them, in the Benelux (Low Countries) a handful of families, only in England/Ireland (with some offspring in the US) there are a few more, is my impression. When you look at their heritage some can be traced as Jewish (or Southern European immigrants), but not all. When you look at the cases in the Anglo Saxon Countries and in the Low Countries this doesn't always fit, I guess. Just like in my case (is my suspicion).

The only common explanation which might be reasonable that it has something to do with seafaring people. May be a megalithic/neolithic expansion. First from the Nubian area (one of the oldest megalith areas) to Southern Europe. And than from the Southern Europe, for example by the early Maritime Bell Beaker or so, to Northwestern Europa. At least before the big roll over by R1b....May be the following map from C.S. Coon, Races of Europe (https://aspergerhuman.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/455c2-troemap2.jpg)(1939) wasn't so wrong at all. The North Atlantid type revisited? But how such (most probably) tiny lineage could survive for so very long?:thinking:
7611

Northener
31-01-16, 21:51
And Lundman called it "Litoriden" an Armenid / East Mediterranean mixture, and the distribution would be like in the map. Friesland is also marked. It's published in 1977. Don't know the background, who knows?

7612

Greying Wanderer
01-02-16, 16:03
Because of my E-V22 YDNA some people ask me: 'How do you think your paternal line arrived in your recorded homes of paternal ancestry?'

That's my key question, my known lineage goes back to seventeenth century Friesland. As far as I know my oldest ancestors were farmers/sailors in Wartena in the centre of Friesland. They had typical Frisian names like Haije or Fokke. So the surface looks very Frisian. So E-V22 is for Friesland (mostly very Nordic types) at least a bit surprising, until now non-existing in the tests.....

This goes for whole Northwestern Europe, 'we' are white ravens there, in Scandinavia non existent, in Germany few of them, in the Benelux (Low Countries) a handful of families, only in England/Ireland (with some offspring in the US) there are a few more, is my impression. When you look at their heritage some can be traced as Jewish (or Southern European immigrants), but not all. When you look at the cases in the Anglo Saxon Countries and in the Low Countries this doesn't always fit, I guess. Just like in my case (is my suspicion).

The only common explanation which might be reasonable that it has something to do with seafaring people. May be a megalithic/neolithic expansion. First from the Nubian area (one of the oldest megalith areas) to Southern Europe. And than from the Southern Europe, for example by the early Maritime Bell Beaker or so, to Northwestern Europa. At least before the big roll over by R1b....May be the following map from C.S. Coon, Races of Europe (https://aspergerhuman.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/455c2-troemap2.jpg)(1939) wasn't so wrong at all. The North Atlantid type revisited? But how such (most probably) tiny lineage could survive for so very long?:thinking:
7611

I wonder about this too and I think it most likely relates to the Atlantic Megalith culture. My guess would be there was once traces of this all along the Atlantic coast in Megalithic sites from Portugal to the Baltic but it mainly survives now in places that were at the time refuge zones from later expansions e.g. swamps and mountains, hence the cluster in North Wales and maybe Frisia?

If not that then earlier.

Northener
01-02-16, 23:13
Thank you for the reply! "refuge zones from later expansions e.g. swamps and mountains" ....in the Dutch mountains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPyiZI_WrXw
Serious,
Yes, Wartena was in a swamp district, at first only reachable by water (until 1953 the waterway was still the best).....so.....!
On the other hand waterways were always the high ways of the past, they were fully integrated in early commercialization. In the early middle ages was Frisian= trader ;)
See:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/05/the-edge-of-the-world-north-sea-michael-pye-review

Greying Wanderer
02-02-16, 08:18
Yes it's an interesting mystery. IIRC there's another E hotspot on the Isle of Wight.

Northener
02-02-16, 17:47
@Greying Wanderer, It would be nice if finest research could see a difference between 'relict' areas form the coastal lines like swamps and mountains and the rest.....anyone familiair with it. I remember some kind of research I think from Belgium which stated that the diversity in the inlands was bigger than at the coasts....In advance they expected reverse.
Also you most remember that E know a lot of diversity. E-V13 and E-V22 are cousins, but E-V22 is almost twice as old as E-V13 and probably came on the scene in a very different area

One very obvious fact is that the grandfather of E-V13 and E-V22 namely E-V1083/ E-Z1919 is only found on Sardinia (0,3%) and along the Saho in Eritrea (1,1%). No where else. Sardinia is nowadays seen as the old relict area of the Neolithic EEF. So was there indeed an old Neolithic connection between the Mediterranean area and Northeast Africa?

When it comes to the relationship between the Mediterranean and the Neolithization of Northwestern Europe and especially the coastal parts of it, we must keep in mind of Spencer Wells from Genographic: "The issue here is that the Mediterranean is a genetic jacuzzi, if you will, it's had people moving around all over the place for millennia. Teasing apart something that's specifically Levantine, or Phoenician, from the background of the general Neolithic expansion, or Greek colonisation, is actually quite tough."

Recent research is mostly concentrated on the Anatolian influence. But wo takes in account the influence from the Egyptian. In other times and with other frames Giuseppe Sergi argued in 1901 that the 'Mediterranean race' had in fact originated in Africa, probably in the Sahara region, and that it also included a number of Ethiopians and Somalis. I think the Egypt/Nubian megalithic civilization must have had it's influence on the Mediterranean people....and thereby also had it's influence in Northwest Europa (before the R1b gulf).

Another old crack C. G. Seligman also stated that "it must, I think, be recognized that the Mediterranean race has actually more achievement to its credit than any other, since it is responsible for by far the greater part of Mediterranean civilization, certainly before 1000 B.C. (and probably much later), and so shaped not only the Aegean cultures, but those of Western as well as the greater part of Eastern Mediterranean lands, while the culture of their near relatives, the Hamitic pre-dynastic Egyptians, formed the basis of that of Egypt." And though his opinion was that the neolithic was brought form north to south (=Hamites were some kind of Caucasians), I now like to reverse it!


Maciamo, the big moderator here, has the following quote, which I only correct for one thing, namely that on the way from Southwestern Europe (Iberia) tot outmost Northwestern Europe (South Sweden) it dit not pass by the Northern Low Countries it most probably had it's influences there (look at the dolmens in the Northern part of the Netherlands).

"What surprised me most about this Neolithic sample is that it was overwhelmingly Southern and Western European, and almost not West Asian/Caucasian at all. Archaeologists have retraced the spread of agriculture from the Balkans to Scandinavia following the Danube, then moving north across Germany (LBK Culture). Coming from Southeast Europe, how could Neolithic farmers be genetically alike to Southwestern Europeans ? If they didn't mingle with the hunter-gatherers they encountered, how could they lack almost entirely West Asian/Caucasian or Southeast European DNA ? This doesn't make sense at all. Unless of course the farmers did not come from the LBK Culture of Germany, but directly by boats from the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe.

This would explain how megalithic sites were found around Denmark and southern Sweden, virtually bypassing (touching! the coastal lines of ;) the Benelux and Germany . It also explains why modern Scandinavians have such a small percentage of West Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (roughly 6% for G2a, J1, J2, E1b1b and T together) despite substantial amount of South European autosomal DNA (33% of Atlantic-Med at K12b and 14% of Mediterranean at K12 for the Swedes ). Megalithic people were seafarers. They traded from Iberia to the British Isles along the coast of France, and to Sardinia and Sicily. Continental LBK people apparently lacked the skills to build boats to colonise Scandinavia and the British Isles. That is why these regions seem to have been colonised for Southwest European farmers in the 5th millennium BCE. That would also explain the similarity between Sardinia, Corsica, Iberia, Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia is head shapes (all dolicocephalic, in contrast to the rest of Europe). We still need to find out where exactly the Megalithic culture started and how it expanded."

Wen it comes to the divers E haplogroups we in Northwestern Europe always first try to link it with the Romans or modern migrations (like the Sefaridim), but don't we overlook the foundations from the Neolithic!?

Tomenable
05-02-16, 02:12
I have found such an interesting book which describes how the racial classifications of Europeans evolved over time:

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Genesis%20X%20and%20Origins/Races%20of%20Europe_McMahon.pdf

This book is not yet another racial classification, but rather it discusses the works of all anthropologists of the past.

Northener
23-07-16, 22:24
A late reaction sorry Tomenable I will take a look at it and comment!


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Northener
23-07-16, 22:26
I have found such an interesting book which describes how the racial classifications of Europeans evolved over time:

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Genesis%20X%20and%20Origins/Races%20of%20Europe_McMahon.pdf

This book is not yet another racial classification, but rather it discusses the works of all anthropologists of the past.

A late reaction, sorry!, but thanks I will take a look at it and comment!


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