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Tomenable
31-01-16, 21:13
I have recently learned, that there is a surprising difference in facial shapes between Germans and Austrians.

See chapter "The Degree of Facial Flatness" - data by ethnic group - pages from 6 to 10 out of 33:

http://mankindquarterly.org/sample/niskanenbalticcorrected.pdf

Quote:


The Volga-Finnic-speaking Mordvians (39.4%) and Austrians (32.4%) have the flattest faces in Europe

The value of Mongol-index (degree of facial flatness) for Austrians is 32.4%, compared to 39.4% for Mordvins and 16.7% for Germans:

http://s11.postimg.org/r5ytgfrur/Mongol_Index.png

Any ideas on why there such a considerable difference between neighbouring peoples ???

MOESAN
06-02-16, 01:34
The study where this table was picked shows it's proper limits considering distances, admixtures and so on.
Concerning Austrians, I wonder if there has not been an error. It's a pity Hungarians are not studied; they could have had kind of imput upon modern Austrians?
the regions taken in account in samplings could have some imput too

Angela
06-02-16, 19:26
This is why I don't take these kinds of studies very seriously. From my experience I don't at all think that Austrians are as flat faced as Mordovians. Some of them are quite a bit darker than some people imagine, however. A good number of them look sort of like this:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Joachim_L%C3%B6w,_Germany_national_football_team_% 2805%29.jpg

Or from the old days, Maximilian Schell, who was actually Austrian. He was a spectacular looking man, and a great actor.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Maximilian_Schell_-_1970-1.jpg

I was reminded of this recently when watching an Austrian TV series.
http://theeurotvplace.com/2015/12/anatomy-of-evil-austrian-mystery-series-starring-heino-ferch-is-worth-binge-watching/

Of course, maybe the minor parts weren't all played by actual Austrians. I'd have to check it. Maybe someone more familiar with their cinema and tv would know.

I'm obviously addicted to crime procedurals. :) I warn any potential viewers that although brilliantly acted and filmed, these five films can be very heavy going. It's not just the lead who is morose, glum, isolated, and emotionally closed off; it's the whole damn cast with the possible exception of the housekeeper and the caffe owner. Depressing doesn't begin to cover it; no wonder all he does is drink and smoke joints all alone in his apartment. Yikes!

MOESAN
07-02-16, 18:59
I have at hand some about 400 Austrian sportsmen pictures that do'nt allow me to do scientific statements about nose and face; but as a lot of people I think Austrians don't show aa a whole any visible tendancy to flat faces more than any other European population, maybe the contrary!
Pigmentation: my observations for the 1960/1980's say 29% light hairs opposed to 21% dark hairs (nothing valuable about eyes and skin) (Germans: respectively 44% and 8% at national level): darkest Austrians:Tyrolians. concerning intra-eyes distances and cheekbones breadth I saw some (rare) special cases among Hungarians, more seldomly among Czechs and Slovakians, flat noses compared to cheekbones position? nothing too evident in favour of"flat faces".
When I speak of "error" I think in a print error: helas it occurs among the more serious scholars papers, sometimes (more than a time). 22,4 could fit better tha 32,4, but who knows? That said, Austrians seems to me more affected by the 'dinaric' combination imput than Germans as a whole so nothing on the way to "flat faces". Maybe some districts could show different means (Huns and Magyar imput???). The same remark for Norwegians: which Norwegians? Norrland or South?...

Sile
07-02-16, 20:51
I have at hand some about 400 Austrian sportsmen pictures that do'nt allow me to do scientific statements about nose and face; but as a lot of people I think Austrians don't show aa a whole any visible tendancy to flat faces more than any other European population, maybe the contrary!
Pigmentation: my observations for the 1960/1980's say 29% light hairs opposed to 21% dark hairs (nothing valuable about eyes and skin) (Germans: respectively 44% and 8% at national level): darkest Austrians:Tyrolians. concerning intra-eyes distances and cheekbones breadth I saw some (rare) special cases among Hungarians, more seldomly among Czechs and Slovakians, flat noses compared to cheekbones position? nothing too evident in favour of"flat faces".
When I speak of "error" I think in a print error: helas it occurs among the more serious scholars papers, sometimes (more than a time). 22,4 could fit better tha 32,4, but who knows? That said, Austrians seems to me more affected by the 'dinaric' combination imput than Germans as a whole so nothing on the way to "flat faces". Maybe some districts could show different means (Huns and Magyar imput???). The same remark for Norwegians: which Norwegians? Norrland or South?...

You do realise that Austrians stem from ancient Bavarians ..............Austria only began to exist in 998AD from Bavarians

Tomenable
08-02-16, 02:03
From my experience I don't at all think that Austrians are as flat faced as Mordovians.

Who says that Mordovians are flat faced, though? Maybe you have not enough experience about Mordovians?

They are among more flat-faced groups in Europe, but still much less than for example Japanese or Buryats.

Tomenable
08-02-16, 02:10
You do realise that Austrians stem from ancient Bavarians

Not only from them, of course. Lots of admixtures from other peoples later on.

Also for example Huns and Avars were around in that region (modern Austria-Hungary).


22,4 could fit better than 32,4

Well - this 32,4 is still less than half of the Japanese 69,2 and only 1/3 of the Buryat 90,0.

Even the Ainu have 52,0 and they sometimes used to be described as "Caucasoid" in the past.

Probably difference between 22,4 and 32,4 would not be easy to spot with the naked eye.

Tomenable
08-02-16, 02:24
I'm not really sure what exactly is being measured to calculate the value of this Mongol-index ???

But Joachim Löw (the first photo posted by Angela) looks quite flat-faced, compared - for example - to this Russian guy:

Are prominent brow ridges (like the ones this guy has) also taken into account in calculating that index?:

http://s23.postimg.org/ez0331tob/Russian.png

Here two examples of very flat East Asian faces (plus also some European and Sub-Saharan faces):

http://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/antropometria/kranioskopia/prognatyzm

http://s30.postimg.org/iyarc6o81/Flat_face_2.png

http://s18.postimg.org/j8l7pipnt/Flat_face.png