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Mammoth Rider
08-02-16, 17:40
Hello,

I received my results for the basic 23andme test and have two questions.

The last Y-DNA mutation I can see is M423 which is a marker for the Group I2a1b.
Does it mean that this is really the last muattion of my Y-DNA type or can I check my raw data to go deeper?

I found out that there are three further possible branches beign L161.1, L162 and L41.2 and am curious if I belong to one of these.

My other markers are:
I2a defining mutations - P37.2
I2 defining mutations - M438
I defining mutations - U179, M258

Can this information be used for an estimation of a more detailed Y-DNA analysis?

P37.2 is more common for north east Germany but M423 is marker most common in todays Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. So how does this fit?
After all its all based on probablities and we build our assumptions on very little archeological data, I understand this, but non the less I have great fun with thinking about my quite distant genetic ancestors and imagine where they lived. The last 3 generations of my relatives are from todays Poland and Lithuania.

Any comments would be welcome as I am very new to this.

sparkey
08-02-16, 19:00
I'm not a 23andMe expert, but in my experience they don't go very deep down the Y-DNA tree, so I'd be surprised if there was a more specific SNP than M423 hiding in your raw data. You can try this sort of technique if you want to be certain: http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/a-web-site-with-tools-for-y-and-other-dna-analysis/

If your test does indeed terminate at M423, that's unfortunate, because its two subclades have very different patterns (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b) and would imply different things about your lineage. At least, there's always FTDNA (for some $$$).

Mammoth Rider
08-02-16, 20:44
Thank you. I was able to make the ISOGG scan but it didn't reveal much more information.


Interestingly P37.2 couldn't be found, instead PF4004 was positive.

I2a1b with M423 ist still valid.
As for further subclades only one can be ruled out but no further positive hits.

I2a1b1 L161.1/S185


Does this mean that the raw data is incomplete or is it possible that the Y-DNA last mutation is just I2a1b?
Because if S185 is ruled out so there must be data at least for this marker which goes deeper than I2a1b.

sparkey
08-02-16, 22:42
Interesting! Knowing that you're L161.1- actually cuts your possibilities in half, eliminating the subclade nicknamed I2a "Isles." Last I checked, the only known I2 M423+ L161.1- carriers were those who also carried L621, which means that you're in either the (huge, younger, typically Slavic) I2a "Din" group or the (tiny, older, typically British) I2a "Disles" group.

sparkey
08-02-16, 22:44
Does this mean that the raw data is incomplete or is it possible that the Y-DNA last mutation is just I2a1b?

Incomplete. 23andMe doesn't test the whole tree.

Mammoth Rider
09-02-16, 12:20
Incomplete. 23andMe doesn't test the whole tree.

This is quite unfortunate. Even more so as 23andme presents the results in a very simplified graphic so most people take what they see as their accurate result. This could be troublesome for those who are checking their relations to their siblings or parents.

The advice you gave me was very good. Yesterday I found out by accident that not all markers are read properly and displayed in the ISOGG list and that I have R1 markers which 23andme didn’t mention at all.

I’m positive for R-P285 and R1a1- PF6234

Which is quite a game changer for me as I am very interested in ancient history and I did this test because I want to check if I can learn something about the ancient people my most recent Haplogroup belongs to.

So assuming that R1 is younger in Europe than I2a1b, my last Y mutation is R1a1. That’s not enough to attempt a match to an ancient civilization but it’s a start. It could be anything from e.g. north Yamna Culture, Corded Ware to maybe even Thracians.

One question, am I correct – I have so far 30 positive markers for F, 9 for IJ and 16 for I and just 2 for R1, so I assume that my paternal line came to Europe from southern Asian (F) over the near east and Anatolia (IJ), entered the Balkans as hunter gatherers (i) and spread a bit further to the north east where they mixed with R1 groups.
It’s very simplified and not really based on science but could this be a possible scenario?

sparkey
09-02-16, 18:24
I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.

Mammoth Rider
09-02-16, 19:45
I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.

Yes you are right, I expected this to work out differently. I spent several hours today to check every positive and negative marker in the source list and learnt a bit more about DANN genealogy and archeogenetics.

I guess there are far more things to discover but unfortunately it’s not in the raw data I got from 23andme.

Would you suggest that if I want a better result I need to go to a different company like FTDNA and buy a more expensive package or is there a way to use the results I already got to narrow the further testing somehow so it won't cost a lot?

(I have a question about R1 markers but I will post this in the R group forum)

sparkey
09-02-16, 22:36
Would you suggest that if I want a better result I need to go to a different company like FTDNA and buy a more expensive package or is there a way to use the results I already got to narrow the further testing somehow so it won't cost a lot?

I think you've squeezed what you can out of 23andMe's Y-DNA test, which is an inexpensive option that also gives you tons of insight into autosomal DNA. In fact, I'd call 23andMe primarily an autosomal test that also tells you a bit about your Y-DNA and mtDNA as a plus. If you want a Y-DNA specialty test, FTDNA is the obvious next step. 37 STRs is probably enough for an I2 carrier (R1 carriers tend to need more)--right now that is $169, and sometimes you can catch a sale. Knowing the STRs may narrow it down enough that you don't even need another SNP test, and if you do end up needing a specific SNP test, those aren't very expensive and FTDNA Project admins can tell you which one to get.

Also, I haven't used it, but FTDNA seems to offer a free transfer service so you don't have to redo autosomal testing: https://www.familytreedna.com/AutosomalTransfer

RobertColumbia
11-02-16, 05:49
I think you're reading too much into having a couple of Haplogroup R SNPs. It's not possible to be both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup R at the same time. You definitely seem to be Haplogroup I. If you carry some SNP more typical of an R carrier, it's more likely due to that SNP arising naturally at multiple places in the human haplotree (probably because it's unstable, i.e., it tends to mutate frequently) than it is that you somehow got Haplogroup R spliced into your Y chromosome.

Good point. While it is theoretically possible, in a broad sense of possible, to have a hybrid I-R y-chromosome, it is very unlikely. In the rare event that you do have a spliced I-R, that would be notable and a subject of interesting research!

I agree with Sparkey. Unless there is more evidence, I would say that you just have some interesting downstream mutations that mimic some of the changes found in certain R clades.

singingfalls
15-03-16, 07:58
Mammoth Rider - This is a less expensive way to find out where you are located down stream from M423.
YSEQ has updated their I2a M423 panel to include many new SNPs including A7358. Info here: http://www.singingfalls.com/dna.html#ydna Scroll down to updates.
Here is an image of the new panel tree: http://www.singingfalls.com/images/d...M423_panel.jpg (http://www.singingfalls.com/images/dna/YSEQ_M423_panel.jpg)