Invent names for haplogroup bearers (fun thread)

Tomenable

Elite member
Messages
5,419
Reaction score
1,336
Points
113
Location
Poland
Ethnic group
Polish
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b-L617
mtDNA haplogroup
W6a
I came across a scientific publication titled "Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b":

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=19567

I thought it would be fun to invent similar names for bearers of other haplogroups as well. Let's try. :)

Bearers of Y-DNA R1b - Arbins
Bearers of Y-DNA R1a - Arians

Any ideas for other hg-s ??? :grin: You may also suggest alternative names for bearers of R1a & R1b.
 
If anything Arians were Z-93. Z283, the European R1a were not.
 
It would be more fun to guess what ancient people called themselves. The Celts were probably called either Gael and Gaul.

Bearers of Y-DNA R1b - Arbins
Bearers of Y-DNA R1a - Arians

It makes sense to call the R1a PIE 'Aryans' as it is their historical name. It's not impossible that all PIE people had a common tribe name with regional variations, like the Celts/Gaels/Gals/Gauls. If that is the case, the name of R1b Centum branch name may only have differed slightly from the name 'Aryan', but I would rather be inclined to think it was something like Alba(n). This name is found throughout the R1b-L51 world:

- There are places called Alba(n) in all ancient Italo-Celtic regions, including France, central Spain, northern Italy and Romania.
- Alba/Albany is the ancient name of Scotland and Albion is the oldest known name of the island of Great Britain.
- Alban is a Welsh surname.
- The Alban hills of Rome and the ancient city of Alba Longa in the Latium were among the oldest recorded names in Roman history.
- The country Albania (Centum language and much more R1b than R1a).
- In Roman times Albania was modern Daghestan, a region rich in R1b derived from Maykop and Yamna.

The PIE root *albho- means "white". As Proto-Indo-Europeans were apparently the first people in history to carry both derived versions of light skin genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, it would be natural for them to refer to themselves as the 'white people'.
 
I came across a scientific publication titled "Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b":

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=19567

I thought it would be fun to invent similar names for bearers of other haplogroups as well. Let's try. :)

Bearers of Y-DNA R1b - Arbins
Bearers of Y-DNA R1a - Arians

Any ideas for other hg-s ??? :grin: You may also suggest alternative names for bearers of R1a & R1b.

Bearers of Y-DNA R2 - Artoos (was there ever a hg R2d2?)
Bearers of Y-DNA I - Introverts (based on their decline in Europe with respect to hg R since the Bronze Age)
Bearers of Y-DNA E1b1a - The Expanse (based on their association with the Bantu Expansion in Africa)
Bearers of Y-DNA E1b1b - The Napoleonic Code
Bearers of Y-DNA N1 - Northerners
Bearers of Y-DNA O - O, the Humanity
Bearers of Y-DNA A - Africani A
 
It would be more fun to guess what ancient people called themselves. The Celts were probably called either Gael and Gaul....

Or at least something containing the sounds G and L, as also found in the Galicians (of Spain) and the Galatians (of Anatolia, as mentioned in the Bible). If you propose a sound change from G-K and L-R (not that farfetched), you can also include the Cymri (Welsh) and Kernowyon (Cornish).
 
It would be more fun to guess what ancient people called themselves. The Celts were probably called either Gael and Gaul.

Actually, I do think the reverse is more accurate, that the Gauls called themselves "Celts" (Keltoi), while "Gauls" (Galli) was the Latin exonym. The term "Gael" is actually unrelated, it is actually a Brythonic loan into Irish, from the word for 'wild' (Welsh "gwydd", also there's a native cognate in Old Irish, "fíad", with the same meaning as in Welsh). My personal hunch is that the name stems from Irish piracy activity in Britain during the Late(st) Antiquity and the Dark Ages. As for overall terms for someone who speaks a Celtic language, in my opinion the ancient Celts did not have such a term. (In turn, the name "Celt" as used today by linguists is very much a modern invention).

It makes sense to call the R1a PIE 'Aryans' as it is their historical name. It's not impossible that all PIE people had a common tribe name with regional variations, like the Celts/Gaels/Gals/Gauls. If that is the case, the name of R1b Centum branch name may only have differed slightly from the name 'Aryan', but I would rather be inclined to think it was something like Alba(n). This name is found throughout the R1b-L51 world:

The Sarmatian ethnic name "Alans" is also a related with the Indian "Aryans", as is the country name "Iran".

- There are places called Alba(n) in all ancient Italo-Celtic regions, including France, central Spain, northern Italy and Romania.
- Alba/Albany is the ancient name of Scotland and Albion is the oldest known name of the island of Great Britain.
- Alban is a Welsh surname.
- The Alban hills of Rome and the ancient city of Alba Longa in the Latium were among the oldest recorded names in Roman history.

I would add the river name "Elbe" (to the Romans, the Albis) into that list.

- The country Albania (Centum language and much more R1b than R1a).

Modern Albanian (an exonym) is a Satem language.

- In Roman times Albania was modern Daghestan, a region rich in R1b derived from Maykop and Yamna.

The Caucasian Albanians were non-Indo-Europeans, for sure (though I would place it more into the area of modern Azerbaijan). I also would strongly suspect that "Albania" is a Roman exonym (I'm not ruling out a relationship with the Latin word "albus").
 
Actually, I do think the reverse is more accurate, that the Gauls called themselves "Celts" (Keltoi), while "Gauls" (Galli) was the Latin exonym. The term "Gael" is actually unrelated, it is actually a Brythonic loan into Irish, from the word for 'wild' (Welsh "gwydd", also there's a native cognate in Old Irish, "fíad", with the same meaning as in Welsh). My personal hunch is that the name stems from Irish piracy activity in Britain during the Late(st) Antiquity and the Dark Ages. As for overall terms for someone who speaks a Celtic language, in my opinion the ancient Celts did not have such a term. (In turn, the name "Celt" as used today by linguists is very much a modern invention).

Etymology is often just a matter of guesswork and personal preferences over several hypotheses.

I would add the river name "Elbe" (to the Romans, the Albis) into that list.

That's a good example of what I meant. According to Wikipedia, the etymology is Elbe comes from the High German word for river-bed (albiz), related to the Old English river name elf, and Middle Low German elve. So whether you go with the Latin, Italo-Celtic or PIE word Alban, or with that Germanic word is a matter that cannot be resolved by any amount of logic or discussion. We will never be able to know for sure.


Modern Albanian (an exonym) is a Satem language.

Yes, but I believe that ancient Albanian was a Centum language. Unfortunately it is undocumented, but modern Albanian does show signs of incomplete satemization. It was obviously strongly influenced by Slavic languages and other ancient Satem/R1a IE languages before that, or other languages that were satemized themselves like Thracian or Dacian. It is interesting that these IE languages in the Balkans appear to be intermediary between Centum and Satem and also happen to be regions that were first settled by R1b people, then invaded repeatedly by R1a tribes. I suppose that each wave of R1a invader brought their own grammatical and lexical contributions and languages blended over time a bit like Middle English blended with Norman French to form Modern English, or how Jomon and Yayoi languages merged to form Old Japanese. Thracian, Dacian and Albanian may all be such hybrids of R1b Centum and R1a Satem, so that they can't really fit in one group only.

The Caucasian Albanians were non-Indo-Europeans, for sure (though I would place it more into the area of modern Azerbaijan). I also would strongly suspect that "Albania" is a Roman exonym (I'm not ruling out a relationship with the Latin word "albus").

The Caucasian Albanians were non-Indo-Europeans, for sure (though I would place it more into the area of modern Azerbaijan). I also would strongly suspect that "Albania" is a Roman exonym (I'm not ruling out a relationship with the Latin word "albus").[/QUOTE]

Actually Caucasian Albania was straddling southern Daghestan and northern Azerbaijan, pretty much exactly the region occupied by the Lezgian people, and according to Wikipedia, originally at least some of the Caucasian Albanians spoke Lezgic languages. Eventhough these are non-IE languages, it is very interesting to note that Lezgian people represent a hotspot of R1b (21.5% of the population) in the Caucasus region, and these are all R1b-L23 of Yamna origin. It's not just that. The Lezgians have an amazingly high 24% of West European admixture at the Dodecad K=12, 24% of North European and 28% of ANE at the K=12b. In Eurogenes K=15, their North Sea+Atlantic+Baltic+East_Euro totals 34%. That's 3x more than Kurdish people and 4x more than Armenian people, who are both Indo-European speakers and are their neighbours in the South Caucasus. So I think that the term Albania does really refer to that 24% to 34% of Yamna ancestry in the Lezgians, even if, like the R1b Basques, Hungarians and Turks, they lost their IE language along the way. Languages sometimes mix to some extent, but more often replace completely each others. Genes mix and the beauty of genetics is that it can tell us just how much of an ancient population survives in a modern one, even when their language has disappeared.
 
I was a bit confused that there was no such term as Aryan in Baltic languages, so I searched it.
On Arians:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h₂eryós
"Possibly a loanword from Ugaritic, from Proto-Afro-Asiatic *ħər ‎(“free, noble”)."

Also, apparently Baltic languages are not the only languages that lack this term:
"A comparable word does not exist in any other Indo-European language"

Unless some Slavic user comes up with a Slavic cognate for Aryan, I will believe the above.
 
I came across a scientific publication titled "Ancient History of the Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b":

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=19567

I thought it would be fun to invent similar names for bearers of other haplogroups as well. Let's try. :)

Bearers of Y-DNA R1b - Arbins
Bearers of Y-DNA R1a - Arians


Also known as AR1ans lol.

But LeBrok is right Arian R1a would be pred. Z93 however I go even one step further and say any R1a z93 outside the Indo_Iranic language family is not Arian. J2a, J1, G, R1b/R2 and even z283 among Indo_Iranic speakers would be rather Arian cause Arian is an ethno-linguistic term.
 
It would be more fun to guess what ancient people called themselves. The Celts were probably called either Gael and Gaul.



It makes sense to call the R1a PIE 'Aryans' as it is their historical name. It's not impossible that all PIE people had a common tribe name with regional variations, like the Celts/Gaels/Gals/Gauls. If that is the case, the name of R1b Centum branch name may only have differed slightly from the name 'Aryan', but I would rather be inclined to think it was something like Alba(n). This name is found throughout the R1b-L51 world:

- There are places called Alba(n) in all ancient Italo-Celtic regions, including France, central Spain, northern Italy and Romania.
- Alba/Albany is the ancient name of Scotland and Albion is the oldest known name of the island of Great Britain.
- Alban is a Welsh surname.
- The Alban hills of Rome and the ancient city of Alba Longa in the Latium were among the oldest recorded names in Roman history.
- The country Albania (Centum language and much more R1b than R1a).
- In Roman times Albania was modern Daghestan, a region rich in R1b derived from Maykop and Yamna.

The PIE root *albho- means "white". As Proto-Indo-Europeans were apparently the first people in history to carry both derived versions of light skin genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2, it would be natural for them to refer to themselves as the 'white people'.

The Germanic Alemanni I think is also Alban derived. As well Iberian "Alba" as surname.

There is no evidence that all Satem Indo Europeans called themselves "Arian". Arian is a specific Indo_Iranic version of "Noble". There are signs that Arian shares roots with other Indo-European languages with the same meaning but there are no signs that these words were used as ethnic designation among other.
 
Last edited:
The Sarmatian ethnic name "Alans" is also a related with the Indian "Aryans", as is the country name "Iran".

It is dervied from the long version Alanoi which on itself is derived from Arianoi what the Medes called themselves.
 
Last edited:
The Germanic Alemanni I think is also Alban derived.

There is no evidence that all Satem Indo Europeans called themselves "Arian". Arian is a specific Indo_Iranic version of "Noble". There are signs that Arian shares roots with other Indo-European languages with the same meaning but there are no signs that these words were used as ethnic designation among other.
Care to provide those signs?
I know only orja:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja

But not exactly Indo-European :)
 
If anything Arians were Z-93.

It's a thread intended to be with a pinch of salt. But of course a more serious discussion is also welcome.

Besides - your post is about Aryans, not Arians.

Arians were actually a religious group, believers of Arianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

And AR1ans are bearers of R1a haplogroup. ;)

But LeBrok is right Arian R1a would be pred. Z93

Aryan you mean. Arians were a religious group in Europe, so probably had more of Z283, if anything. :wink:
 
The Germanic Alemanni I think is also Alban derived.

There is no evidence that all Satem Indo Europeans called themselves "Arian". Arian is a specific Indo_Iranic version of "Noble". There are signs that Arian shares roots with other Indo-European languages with the same meaning but there are no signs that these words were used as ethnic designation among other.

A form of Aryan was, and is used to describe the (Satem-speaking) Iranian people. You are right that there does not seem to be an indication that ALL Satem speakers universally called themselves "Aryans", but at least some have used it to describe their ethnic group.
 
I was a bit confused that there was no such term as Aryan in Baltic languages, so I searched it.
On Arians:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h₂eryós
"Possibly a loanword from Ugaritic, from Proto-Afro-Asiatic*ħər ‎(“free, noble”)."

Also, apparently Baltic languages are not the only languages that lack this term:
"A comparable word does not exist in any other Indo-European language"

Unless some Slavic user comes up with a Slavic cognate for Aryan, I will believe the above.

It's not surprising. Peoples' or tribes' names are often defined by outsiders to distinguish them from themselves. For example, I doubt that the Lombards (Langobardi or "long beards") gave themselves that name. If they had a tradition if letting their beards grow longer than average, then other tribes would have defined them as the 'long beards'. The same would have happened with the Albans or 'white people' when the Proto-Indo-Europeans started invading Europe and the Middle East. Descriptive names only work if they are used to contrast against other tribes/peoples, and therefore very often the name is bestowed by outsiders. In the case of Aryan, the term was apparently applied only to the Indo-Iranian R1a tribes when they invaded Central, South and West Asia.
 
I think many nations even fabricate the meaning of some names for ancient tribes........In Italy they have the Veneti as the Beloved ........ tribes called themselves something different to what the others named them...............so, I really do not see the point of this thread.

La frequenza di questo etnonimo in diverse aree europee non va però spiegata con ipotetici legami storici e linguistici tra i diversi popoli che ne hanno fatto uso, quanto piuttosto con un'uguale derivazione, più volte ripetuta in modo indipendente, dalla medesima radice indoeuropea *wen ("amare"). I "Veneti" (*wenetoi) sarebbero pertanto gli "amati", o forse gli "amabili", gli "amichevoli".[8]

, from the same [URL="https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com.au&sl=it&u=https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radice_%28linguistica%29&usg=ALkJrhhRmWA9l8HJWyoeIqU5dKCxgOQMMg"]root Indo-European * wen ("love"). The "Venetian" (* wenetoi) would therefore be the "beloved", or perhaps "loving" the. "Friendly" [8]
[/URL]
 
It's a thread intended to be with a pinch of salt. But of course a more serious discussion is also welcome.

Besides - your post is about Aryans, not Arians.

Arians were actually a religious group, believers of Arianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

And AR1ans are bearers of R1a haplogroup. ;)



Aryan you mean. Arians were a religious group in Europe, so probably had more of Z283, if anything. :wink:


Arian is simply a synonym, a different version of the same word Aryan. This religious group which calls itself Arian does so because they derive it from Aryan. For example in German you write it as Arian :)
 

This thread has been viewed 17226 times.

Back
Top