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Angela
10-02-16, 20:36
It's a very good example of how climate change can be a very important factor in political upheavals. Another one is in the Bronze Age, and in the Neolithic as well.

See: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3437314/Did-climate-change-cause-collapse-eastern-Roman-Empire-Little-Ice-Age-535-AD-led-famine-political-upheaval-ancient-world.html

The analysis is based on tree rings.

The authors point to the period just before 600 AD, when famine followed by the plague decimated them. They also link the wetter weather in Arabia that resulted as perhaps making the Arab expansion more likely. I think the Slavic invasions might also be related.


"Based on these measurements, the researchers believe the Late Antique Little Ice Age began in around 535 AD.

There was a marked temperature drop following three major volcanic eruptions, in 536, 540 and 547 AD."



"Volcanoes can cause climate cooling by ejecting large volumes of small particles – sulphate aerosols - that block sunlight.

The researchers think this spate of eruptions may have combined with a solar minimum, when the sun radiates less heat, extending the grip of the freezing climate for over a century.
These events likely affected food supplies and a major famine struck the region at precisely this time followed immediately by the Justinian plague pandemic.
The Justinian plague started in 541 AD and swept through the Mediterranean, striking Constantinople and killing millions of people in the following centuries."

I have no idea what they're talking about when they say the Western Empire fell "later".

arvistro
10-02-16, 21:45
Yeah, there was an Estonian paper claiming about 50% or higher population loss around Baltics in the second half of 6th Century, trade disruptions and what not.

Angela
10-02-16, 23:17
Yeah, there was an Estonian paper claiming about 50% or higher population loss around Baltics in the second half of 6th Century, trade disruptions and what not.

That's when the Lombards showed up in northern Italy too, malnourished and bearing the signs of very violent encounters.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110793

bicicleur
11-02-16, 00:57
and then there were the Vikings in Greenland
when they arrived there were birch trees growing in the Greenland fjords
they kept sheep but a few centuries later they couldn't survive any more because of a cold period
today it seems it is possible to grow tomatoes on Greenland
and ground prices are getting sky high because of Chinese want to come and live there
you see .. global warming isn't all bad

LeBrok
11-02-16, 06:32
It's good to be vindicated again. I always said that fall of Roman Empire, Slavic Expansion, depopulation of Europe and Dark Ages were due to Cold Climatic spell. Also the time when we should big spike in Lactose Persistence in northern and central Europe.

If anything, I'll take the warming than global cooling, which was implicated in ending many civilizations.
According to the chart from Angela's link, between 520 and 540 AD there was 3 deg C average temperature drop!!! How does it compare, when we are being frightened by 1C temp rise in last 100 years?
First one was catastrophic, which is confirmed by historical events. The latter is mild and enjoyable so far.

bicicleur
11-02-16, 08:31
there was another climate change 5-600 BC when climate became colder
it may also have contributed to the fall of the Roman empire
that climate change triggered the move southward of pré-Germanic tribes
before that they were peacefull farmers as high north as southern Finland

Alan
11-02-16, 12:19
and then there were the Vikings in Greenland
when they arrived there were birch trees growing in the Greenland fjords
they kept sheep but a few centuries later they couldn't survive any more because of a cold period
today it seems it is possible to grow tomatoes on Greenland
and ground prices are getting sky high because of Chinese want to come and live there
you see .. global warming isn't all bad
For Northern regions yes but dry deserts of get even dryer which will cause more refugee effect.

Tomenable
11-02-16, 17:09
What conferred an advantage for Slavs that allowed them to vastly expand in such hard times, when others were in decline?

I have found an interesting thread about this on another forum: http://historum.com/european-history/100075-migration-period-why-did-slavs-expand-but-not-balts-finno-ugrians.html

Angela
11-02-16, 22:30
For Northern regions yes but dry deserts of get even dryer which will cause more refugee effect.

In this particular event they seem to feel Arabia got wetter, so more camels, more population, thereby feeding the expansion. I'm not familiar with the particulars.

@Tomenable,

Yes, you've mentioned that before. It would be something for scientists to study, I suppose, i.e. whether Slavs had a slightly better resistance to the Plague. If they did, I think it's more likely something to do with their mtDna.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699618/

"MtDNA haplogroups J and U5a were elevated among HIV-1 infected people who display accelerated progression to AIDS and death. Haplogroups Uk, H3, and IWX appeared to be highly protective against AIDS progression."

Oddly, the Basques were less affected as well, if that map in your link is correct, which perhaps led to their retention of an older genetic signature? The area in Italy almost duplicates the strongest area of U-152, although there's lots of it in Germany and France and they didn't have a lower level. so again it may be related to mtDna.

I've always thought that the Plague might have changed the genetic signature in Europe if a certain genetic profile was more resistant. It used to be a very unpopular position to hold among the more mathematically oriented enthusiasts.

bicicleur
11-02-16, 23:54
In this particular event they seem to feel Arabia got wetter, so more camels, more population, thereby feeding the expansion. I'm not familiar with the particulars.



that is possible if this climate shift goes along with a shift in lattitude of high and low pressure areas

LeBrok
12-02-16, 04:52
In this particular event they seem to feel Arabia got wetter, so more camels, more population, thereby feeding the expansion. I'm not familiar with the particulars.

@Tomenable,
http://www.divermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Dead-Sea-levels.jpg

It is hard to be certain but it seems that it rains more in Near East when Europe is in cold climate.