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Tomenable
15-02-16, 02:37
The oldest surviving Jewish grave in Europe, is the grave of Jacob ha-Bachur, from ca. 1076/1077 - this grave can be found at the Jewish cemetery in Worms (Celtic: Borbetomagus; Roman: Civitas Vangionum) in Rhineland-Palatinate:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4277.jpg

And here the grave of Yaakov ben Moshe Levi Moelin (born 1365 - died September 14, 1427), the Maharil:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Raschi_grave.jpg

Other old Jewish graves from this cemetery:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/J%C3%BCdischer_Friedhof_Worms-4176.jpg?uselang=de

IMO at least Jacob ha-Bachur (who died in 1076/1077) should be exhumated, and a sample of aDNA should be extracted from his bones.

holderlin
15-02-16, 16:48
Is this kinda like the "Hey check out my black friends" thread

And yes I agree they should test this sample. They should also involve the local holocaust association.

Angela
15-02-16, 17:51
Is this kinda like the "Hey check out my black friends" thread

And yes I agree they should test this sample. They should also involve the local holocaust association.

Well, the closest Synagogue/Temple, Jewish Community Association, yes. Also, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that there are descendants, although it may be very unlikely. There are a few Jewish families which can trace their ancestry back pretty far.

My bet would be that they're remarkably like modern Ashkenazim, given that they probably formed from these groups.

I'm more interested in seeing the genomes of Roman Era Levantine and Diaspora Jews in comparison to other coastal Mediterranean populations of the time.

Tomenable
16-02-16, 19:47
Also, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that there are descendants, although it may be very unlikely.

When did the bottleneck take place? If I recall correctly, Jacob ha-Bachur lived already after the bottleneck.

If so, then not only there are descendants, but pretty much every modern Ashkenazi can be his descendant.

holderlin
17-02-16, 07:40
Well, the closest Synagogue/Temple, Jewish Community Association, yes.

Dumb bad joke. Sorry for making a stupid first post and corrupting your thread Tomenable. For some reason the steppe/baltic PIE homeland proponent, many of which are presumed to have some sort of racist agenda, making a thread to honor Jews had me laughing one morning I dunno. You post all kinds of different stuff so it doesn't make sense but for some reason I read it as "I'll show them I'm not agenda driven....a few threads like this and I'm free to swing from every new EHG genome's nuts for awhile"


Also, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that there are descendants, although it may be very unlikely. There are a few Jewish families which can trace their ancestry back pretty far.


My bet would be that they're remarkably like modern Ashkenazim, given that they probably formed from these groups.

I'm more interested in seeing the genomes of Roman Era Levantine and Diaspora Jews in comparison to other coastal Mediterranean populations of the time.

Yes I think Middle Age Ashkenzis for the most part will = moderns. I believe the data we have so far is consistent in every way with a small population in relation to surrounding Europeans meaning they interbred for a long time, and 1000AD is only 50 generations away.

It be would interesting to see an "original Jew". Probably would be ENF like actually because I'm pretty sure modern day Ashkenazi's are EEF/ENF like. This wouldnt seem to make sense at first because by the Roman Era the region would presumably have gone through countless admixture events. Just before Rome Judea was Greek, Persian before that, Assyrian, Egyptian/Hittite, Caananite(sometimes),? .......then off into the pre-historical where we only have artifacts and computational genetics. Thank god for the genetics. I'm sure the only thing happening here is that we still have very few ancient genomes from that region for comparison and that's if you count Anatolia, none if we don't. Resolution will increase.

I guess my main question for that region would be where the afro-asiatic languages originated. Was it Natufian/Gobekli tepean-PPNA->..... with more or less continuity all the way till now? Or did the G2 original farmers speak something different, perhaps some sort of Proto-hattic? I guess with the estimated age of PAA the former might be the only possibility. But that would mean the farmers entering the Balkans would have originally spoken a AA language.

A Semitic like language to be clear. I think the local Synagogue/Holocaust association would be very interested to hear this indeed.

Tomenable
17-02-16, 22:50
the steppe/baltic PIE homeland proponent, many of which are presumed to have some sort of racist agenda

Yes it is understandable because of how the Nazis exploited the PIEs in their propaganda of master race just 70-80 years ago. But let's remember that the Nazis claimed that the PIE homeland was in Germany (Central-Northern Europe), not in the Volga-Ural region.

Check this quote from the Nazi brochure for the 1938 Nuremberg Rally, about the "Proto-Indo-Germanic peoples":


(...) At the beginning of the most recent Ice Age, around 5,000 BC, a Nordic Indo-Germanic Urvolk of the Nordic race existed in Central and Northern Europe, with the same language and civilized mode of behavior [Gesittung], which divided into smaller and larger groups as it expanded. From these went forth Germans, Celts, Romans, Greeks, Slavs, Persians, and Aryan Indians. (...) The original racial unity and common ownership of the most important cultural artifacts remained for thousands of years the cement holding together the Western peoples. (...)

So the Nazis equated "Nordic race" with Indo-Europeans, and claimed that the PIE homeland was in Central-Northern Europe.

Not quite the same as the Kurgan Hypothesis, or any other hypotheses about Baltic-Ural or Volga-Ural PIE homelands.

And also recognizing Slavs as part of "Indo-Germanic" family, did not prevent the Germans from judging them as inferiors.

When it comes to Semites, the Nazis recognized both Arabs and Jews as Semitic peoples, but only Jews as subhumans.

Do not try to find consistency or logic in Nazi ideologies, because you won't find much anyway. As for the "Nordic race":

One of Nazi Germany's anthropologists, Hans Friedrich Karl Günther (also known as Race Pope - Rassenpapst - or Race Günther - Rassengünther), who was a Nordicist not a Germanicist (a difference was that Germanicists preached the supremacy of Germanic peoples, while Nordicists preached the supremacy of "Nordic types" regardless of what language they spoke) acknowledged this in 1933:

"(...) Günther found the overwhelming majority of Germans racially mixed, just 6-8% pure Nordic and the East-Europid race, which he despised, common in the east and north ... (Günther 1933: pages 57 and 112)"

So just 5-10% of Germans could be classified as pure Nordic - a ratio probably lower than among some of Baltic and North Slavic groups. By contrast among ethnic Swedes, as many as over 30% were classifed as pure Nordic, and another 1/3 as East Baltid:

"(...) Swedish anthropologists like Nordenstreng adopted the East-Baltic, along with the Nordic, as the real races of Sweden ... (Kemilainen 1994: p. 402; Hildén 1928: pp. 220-21). Nordenstreng ... identified ... 31% ... of pure Nordics ... in Sweden ..., while Lundborg and Linders in 1926 said 36% of Swedes were East-Baltic (Kemilainen 1994: pp. 402-3)."

Based on those stats, some members of the SS started to claim, that 90% - 95% of ethnic Germans were also subhumans:

"(...) The more extreme SS men began to take Nordic supremacy to its logical conclusion that Non-Nordic Germans were inferior, and that five to ten percent of the [ethnic German] population, its best selection, would ultimately rule the rest (Ackermann 1970: page 174). Would Nazi Germany eventually have instituted a truly anthropological race discrimination system ... ? The fate of Germany's brown-haired brachycephals might ultimately have depended on Heinrich Himmler's aptitude for factional manouvering within the Nazi party. (...)"

But other Nazis tried to find excuses & solutions to the problem of incorporating 90% of "impure" Germans into the master race:

"(...) A prominent German anthropologist was accused of explaining away the numerous inconvenient Non-Nordic Germans by attributing head-shape to infants pillows (Huxley & Haddon 1935: p. 40). To absorb South Germans into an expanded Nordic race, Fritz Lenz questioned the validity of the Alpine race (Eickstedt 1934: p. 388; Lenz1936: p. 726)."

Nazis considered Non-Nordic looking Germans superior, but Nordic looking Jews (yes, such types also existed) inferior.

Quote:

"(...) Unlike scientific anthroposociological elitism, mystical, cultural Germanicism made almost all Germans into superior Aryans, even if as blond as Hitler, as dolichocephalic as Rosenberg, as tall as Goebbels, as slender as Goering, and as manly as Streicher , as an anti-Nazi joke put it (Huxley & Haddon 1935: 26). While Lenz criticised the mythical, irrational excesses of Nazi race propaganda, and Günther declared the Nordic movement will always ruthlessly reject Germanicist enthusiasm , his Nordicist rival Clauß advocated a less biological and more culturally defined northern supremacism, while Kaup led a more populist campaign for an inclusive German national race [so a race including all Christian German-speakers regardless of their anthropological traits] (Wiercinski 1962: 12; Lutzhöft 1971: 17 & 22-23; Graham 1977: 1159). (...)"

And:

"(...) Himmler [for some reason] equated former inclusion in the Holy Roman Empire with possession of the same blood as Germans (Ackermann 1970: 110). Nazis strained to be Nordicists, but within limits: Himmler, watching Jews going to the gas chamber, picked out a blond, blue-eyed boy and asked him if he were a Jew and if both his parents were Jews. When the boy answered in the affirmative, Himmler replied: What a pity, then I cannot save you. (Mosse 1978: 221). (...)"

====================

Source of all quotes:

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Genesis%20X%20and%20Origins/Races%20of%20Europe_McMahon.pdf

====================

This is all totally off-topic here, though... :(

Tomenable
17-02-16, 23:39
This is totally off-topic here, though. :(

holderlin
18-02-16, 00:30
Yes it is understandable because of how the Nazis exploited the PIEs in their propaganda of master race just 70-80 years ago. But let's remember that the Nazis claimed that the PIE homeland was in Germany (Central-Northern Europe), not in the Volga-Ural region.

Check this quote from the Nazi brochure for the 1938 Nuremberg Rally, about the "Proto-Indo-Germanic peoples":



So the Nazis equated "Nordic race" with Indo-Europeans, and claimed that the PIE homeland was in Central-Northern Europe.

Not quite the same as the Kurgan Hypothesis, or any other hypotheses about Baltic-Ural or Volga-Ural PIE homelands.

And also recognizing Slavs as part of "Indo-Germanic" family, did not prevent the Germans from judging them as inferiors.

When it comes to Semites, the Nazis recognized both Arabs and Jews as Semitic peoples, but only Jews as subhumans.

Do not try to find consistency or logic in Nazi ideologies, because you won't find much anyway. As for the "Nordic race":

One of Nazi Germany's anthropologists, Hans Friedrich Karl Günther (also known as Race Pope - Rassenpapst - or Race Günther - Rassengünther), who was a Nordicist not a Germanicist (a difference was that Germanicists preached the supremacy of Germanic peoples, while Nordicists preached the supremacy of "Nordic types" regardless of what language they spoke) acknowledged this in 1933:

"(...) Günther found the overwhelming majority of Germans racially mixed, just 6-8% pure Nordic and the East-Europid race, which he despised, common in the east and north ... (Günther 1933: pages 57 and 112)"

So just 5-10% of Germans could be classified as pure Nordic - a ratio probably lower than among some of Baltic and North Slavic groups. By contrast among ethnic Swedes, as many as over 30% were classifed as pure Nordic, and another 1/3 as East Baltid:

"(...) Swedish anthropologists like Nordenstreng adopted the East-Baltic, along with the Nordic, as the real races of Sweden ... (Kemilainen 1994: p. 402; Hildén 1928: pp. 220-21). Nordenstreng ... identified ... 31% ... of pure Nordics ... in Sweden ..., while Lundborg and Linders in 1926 said 36% of Swedes were East-Baltic (Kemilainen 1994: pp. 402-3)."

Based on those stats, some members of the SS started to claim, that 90% - 95% of ethnic Germans were also subhumans:

"(...) The more extreme SS men began to take Nordic supremacy to its logical conclusion that Non-Nordic Germans were inferior, and that five to ten percent of the [ethnic German] population, its best selection, would ultimately rule the rest (Ackermann 1970: page 174). Would Nazi Germany eventually have instituted a truly anthropological race discrimination system ... ? The fate of Germany's brown-haired brachycephals might ultimately have depended on Heinrich Himmler's aptitude for factional manouvering within the Nazi party. (...)"

But other Nazis tried to find excuses & solutions to the problem of incorporating 90% of "impure" Germans into the master race:

"(...) A prominent German anthropologist was accused of explaining away the numerous inconvenient Non-Nordic Germans by attributing head-shape to infants pillows (Huxley & Haddon 1935: p. 40). To absorb South Germans into an expanded Nordic race, Fritz Lenz questioned the validity of the Alpine race (Eickstedt 1934: p. 388; Lenz1936: p. 726)."

Nazis considered Non-Nordic looking Germans superior, but Nordic looking Jews (yes, such types also existed) inferior.

Quote:

"(...) Unlike scientific anthroposociological elitism, mystical, cultural Germanicism made almost all Germans into superior Aryans, even if as blond as Hitler, as dolichocephalic as Rosenberg, as tall as Goebbels, as slender as Goering, and as manly as Streicher , as an anti-Nazi joke put it (Huxley & Haddon 1935: 26). While Lenz criticised the mythical, irrational excesses of Nazi race propaganda, and Günther declared the Nordic movement will always ruthlessly reject Germanicist enthusiasm , his Nordicist rival Clauß advocated a less biological and more culturally defined northern supremacism, while Kaup led a more populist campaign for an inclusive German national race [so a race including all Christian German-speakers regardless of their anthropological traits] (Wiercinski 1962: 12; Lutzhöft 1971: 17 & 22-23; Graham 1977: 1159). (...)"

And:

"(...) Himmler [for some reason] equated former inclusion in the Holy Roman Empire with possession of the same blood as Germans (Ackermann 1970: 110). Nazis strained to be Nordicists, but within limits: Himmler, watching Jews going to the gas chamber, picked out a blond, blue-eyed boy and asked him if he were a Jew and if both his parents were Jews. When the boy answered in the affirmative, Himmler replied: What a pity, then I cannot save you. (Mosse 1978: 221). (...)"

====================

Source of all quotes:

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Genesis%20X%20and%20Origins/Races%20of%20Europe_McMahon.pdf

====================

This is all totally off-topic here, though... :(

Yes, I know all about the strange and bizarre history of Nazism. Horrifying and still unbelievable. If I knew nothing of WWII and someone tried to explain it to me I would not believe it, but I guess now it's hard to imagine what our world would be like without having gone through WWII. I dunno.

Sometimes for a fleeting moment I succeed in putting myself there, imagining myself being a Jew at the time, perhaps a loving father with a family, and I'm nearly overcome with grief and horror. I would have done anything to get my family out of there.

Tomenable
29-02-16, 22:15
Yes, I know all about the strange and bizarre history of Nazism. Horrifying and still unbelievable. If I knew nothing of WWII and someone tried to explain it to me I would not believe it, but I guess now it's hard to imagine what our world would be like without having gone through WWII. I dunno.

Sometimes for a fleeting moment I succeed in putting myself there, imagining myself being a Jew at the time, perhaps a loving father with a family, and I'm nearly overcome with grief and horror. I would have done anything to get my family out of there.

Have you already seen this documentary, titled "The Last Generation" ??? :

http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=64646


Zabno, a small town in Southern Poland, was a haven for Jewish families until WWII broke out. In this moving report, we hear the disturbing stories of people who experienced Nazi cruelty first hand and see just how fresh the wounds left by the Final Solution still are.

Although many Jewish people from the former Krakow Province of Zabno were transported to concentration camps such as Belzec, this moving film focuses on those who were left behind - murdered in their own gardens and buried in unmarked graves, and the lucky few that managed to escape. But were they really lucky? Through startling and frank accounts of their experiences, a small group of surviving women recount how they suffered terrible beatings at German hands and watched with horror as their families were taken away to their deaths. "From that moment everyone thought about leaving the town". Yet even for those who escaped, their ordeals were far from over. "You could say animals lived in better conditions," one woman recalls, remembering the filthy barn she shared with nine others for over two years. The atrocities they suffered are only made more potent by the passing of time: "The worst thing is, we know we're the last generation of witnesses."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2hCH5ANJBE

Tomenable
02-03-16, 01:35
Here a very interesting website about the "founding fathers" (Y-DNA lineages) of Ashkenazi Jews:

http://jewishdna.net

Info on lineages (each leading to a common male ancestor) & how numerous (%) they are today.

moore2moore
02-03-16, 19:28
Complicating matters further is that under halachic law, Judaism was passed along the paternal line until ~1000 A.D. Now, it is passed along the maternal line.

John Doe
02-03-16, 19:54
Should they examine it? Yes!
Would they? Seem to be taking their time.

holderlin
02-03-16, 20:10
Have you already seen this documentary, titled "The Last Generation" ??? :

http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=64646




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2hCH5ANJBE

Yeah, I'll check it out. Thanks

Sloven-Vened
23-09-16, 11:52
Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#The_Khazar_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

Vallicanus
25-09-16, 10:28
Jews are not Semites. Semites have dark skin and black hair. Jews are Khazars. Khazars are Germanic nation. Language of Khazars is germanic Yiddish language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#The_Khazar_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry

Khazars were a Turkic nation and they did not speak Yiddish which is essentially a German dialect mixed with Hebrew, Slavic and other elements.

firetown
09-01-17, 15:14
From what I understand, less than 15% of the Ashkenazi gene pool could possibly be from a Khazar ancestry, so claiming that both equal another is complete hogwash.
Regarding old DNA:
I would assume K and J frequencies were higher back then.
Also the E1B1B element stemming possibly from a migration via north western Africa toward Spain and Italy by turning into Sephardics possibly beginning to add that DNA to the equation.

stoningbull54
09-05-17, 22:23
Interesting topic. I found out recently from Ancestry DNA that I am indeed part Jewish. My ancestry DNA result revealed:

- 62% Eastern European
-30% Italian/Greek
-4% European Jewish
-4% Caucasian

What I am wondering about this result is whether that 4% Jewish is due to similar genes being present in the Serbian gene pool to Jews or is it the result of having a recent Jewish ancestor (great great grandparent) considering that Askhenazi Jews are a very closed genetic community.