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View Full Version : "R1a subclades and Bronze Age migrations on the Eurasian steppes" (December 2015)



Tomenable
02-03-16, 04:14
I've just stumbled upon this new paper:

Csaba Barnabas Horvath, "R1a subclades and Bronze Age Migrations on the Eurasian Steppes":

http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/6837/6563

When discussing the oldest known samples, the author didn't mention Khvalynsk R1a from Mathieson:


- 10433 / SVP46 (grave 1)

Male (confirmed genetically), age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a
copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in
the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves. His U5a1i
MtDNA haplotype is part of a U5a1 group well documented in the Samara series.

I guess it wasn't yet available when he was writing this paper, because missing it would be unlikely.

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The author of this paper thinks, that R1a samples will show up in Ukrainian regions of Yamnaya.

So far all Yamna samples are from Russia, some people expect R1b-L51 in Ukrainian part.

bicicleur
02-03-16, 09:08
R1a1a1 was north of the Pontic steppe 5 ka, the eastern part of the Pontic steppe was R1b1a1-M73 and R1b1a2-M269 6.5 ka, R1b-M269 expanded westward
R1a-Z93 was Abashevo and became Sintashta 4.1 ka, and they became Andronovo and Srubnaya (Petrovka was an outlier)
Srubnaya forced R1b-L23 west of the Dnjepr

eastern Yamnaya was R1b-Z2103, R1b-L23 and R1b-L51 should - presumably show up further west

that is my personal view

bicicleur
02-03-16, 09:21
' As a conclusion to this paper, we can state that the presentgeographic range of different R1a haplogroups strongly suggests theprehistoric migration described in the hypothesis of this paper, and even inthe scope of ancient DNA samples, it still seems to be the most likely, or atleast the least unlikely scenario of those presented. This suggests aprehistoric migration most likely starting from the Eastern LBK culture ofpresent day Hungary and Romania. Then in the next step, splitting into awestern and an eastern flank around 5000-4500 BC, with the western flankmarked by the L664 subclade of R1a1a, and founding the Neolithic Rössenculture (4600-4300 BC) along the Danube river as far west as Germany, andan eastern flank marked by non-L664 R1a1a, founding the ChalcoliticCucuteni culture(4800-3000BC) in present day Romania, Moldova andUkraine. Then in the third phase, a new wave of migration starting fromCucuteni '

I don't think so.
If R1a were part of LBK, I think we should have seen it in the ancient DNA. Cucuteni is a possibility, as we don't have ancient DNA from there yet.

MOESAN
03-03-16, 21:02
' As a conclusion to this paper, we can state that the presentgeographic range of different R1a haplogroups strongly suggests theprehistoric migration described in the hypothesis of this paper, and even inthe scope of ancient DNA samples, it still seems to be the most likely, or atleast the least unlikely scenario of those presented. This suggests aprehistoric migration most likely starting from the Eastern LBK culture ofpresent day Hungary and Romania. Then in the next step, splitting into awestern and an eastern flank around 5000-4500 BC, with the western flankmarked by the L664 subclade of R1a1a, and founding the Neolithic Rössenculture (4600-4300 BC) along the Danube river as far west as Germany, andan eastern flank marked by non-L664 R1a1a, founding the ChalcoliticCucuteni culture(4800-3000BC) in present day Romania, Moldova andUkraine. Then in the third phase, a new wave of migration starting fromCucuteni '

I don't think so.
If R1a were part of LBK, I think we should have seen it in the ancient DNA. Cucuteni is a possibility, as we don't have ancient DNA from there yet.

I'm stunned by their affirmation. Have they ancient Y-R1a of the alleged cultures??? What a precision without any proof (from what I know, maybe I'm unaware of new works?).
Even Cucuteni seems a bad bet to me. They seems more an Anatolian second wave to me, and Romania is poor enough for diverse R1a. I even wonder if the North Caucasus specific Y-G2a are not a Cucuteni-Tripolye heritage but it deserves more attention of mine concerning the genealogy of y-G2a -

arvistro
03-03-16, 21:39
If there is any grain of truth into this, then it would be quite a revolutionary thing contrary to current knowledge and assumptions.