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Maciamo
22-03-16, 10:09
The news just announced (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254) that a bomb exploded in Brussels Airport, killing and wounding many people. Apparently it was close to the American Airlines check-in area.

I am pretty sure that was a terrorist attack conducted by IS to show that Salah Abdeslam was not the only active terrorist in Belgium and that his arrest won't change anything. No surprising when we know that there are hundreds of thousands of disgruntled, poor, and terror-supporting Muslims in Brussels alone, and millions in Western Europe.

By my own reckoning 5 years ago, I estimated that between 20% and 40% of unemployed Muslims in Belgium are members of terrorist organisations (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26489-Belgian-social-security-funds-Islamic-terrorism) (i.e. between 10,000 and 20,000 people) and between 40% and 100% of these unemployed immigrants passively supported terrorist organisations by donating money. Employment status seems to be an important factor in determining whether Muslim immigrants support terrorism or not. That was long before the Paris attacks. I am surprised that almost nobody reacted to my posts on the subject.

It was only after the Paris attack last November, when the police managed to make the link with the Molenbeek Muslim neighbourhood of north-west Brussels, that the authorities and journalists started to worry about that terrorist nest in Brussels. Maybe it's time they checked Eupedia a bit more often and listened to my warnings. If tough measures are not taken to expel from Europe* the most dangerous bunch of the unemployed Maghrebi Muslims, more terrorist attacks will happen, at an increasingly frequent pace, and it won't be limited to Belgium and France. It's time that the authorities woke up. For years they have been asleep, complacent and hoping nothing would happen. For the last few months they have made some rustle through the media, which mostly scared tourists away and had a negative impact of the economy. That's self-mutilation. The half measures they have taken so far are not what I call 'waking up'. This is lucid dreaming at most! They just realised that they had been dreaming, but don't know how to take control of their mind and body yet.


* I say 'expel from Europe' because incarcerating them won't be possible without proofs of wrongdoings, which may not happen until it's too late. Besides, prison are notorious breeding grounds for terrorist organisations. They are places that turn disgruntled men into true terrorists and facilitate recruitment for terrorist organisations. Another possibility would be to create a completely new type of prison where all prisoners are in complete isolation from one another, with no common area, no chance of socialising and no Internet/phone or other form of outside contact.

Of course expelling potential terrorists only works if:
- they are DNA tested
- they have their eyes scanned for future iris recognition programmes
- they are listed by Interpol with all the biometrics data and prevented from ever re-entering the EU or other Western countries.

Another reason why expelling potential terrorists is the better solution is that it costs far less than incarceration or constant monitoring of free suspects.

Goga
22-03-16, 11:46
True, I do agree with you that deportation is the best solution. Deportation of Muslims (Northern Africans) already happened in Europe, Spain. "Expulsion of the Moriscos": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos . But This is not that simple. What about their relatives? If uneducated and unemployed Muslim with radical ideas and hatred toward the West is married and has little children who are born in Europe, should they also be deported? But I don't agree with you that ONLY unemployment should be the only criteria. Lacking of any education and a criminal record would be a much better criteria together with unemployment. If someone is unemployed, has no education and has a criminal record, he/she has not really a very bright future right? To survive he would make more radical, extreme and outlaw choices. Such people should be deported. But then again, what about their parents or children. The best solution should be if someone wants to denounce Islam. Everyone who doesn't want to abandon Islam should be deported. Why? Because Islam is the enemy of the Western Values!

Maciamo
22-03-16, 11:51
True, I do agree with you that deportation is the best solution. Deportation of Muslims (Northern Africans) already happened in Europe, Spain. "Expulsion of the Moriscos": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos . But This is not that simple. What about their relatives? If uneducated and unemployed Muslim with radical ideas and hatred toward the West is married and has little children who are born in Europe, should they also be deported? But I don't agree with you that ONLY unemployment should be the only criteria. Lacking of any education and a criminal record would be a much better criteria together with unemployment. If someone is unemployed, has no education and has a criminal record, he/she has not really a very bright future right? To survive he would make more radical, extreme and outlaw choices. Such people should be deported. But then again, what about their parents or children. The best solution should be if someone wants to denounce Islam. Everyone who doesn't want to abandon Islam should be deported. Why? Because Islam is the enemy of the Western Values!

I didn't say that unemployment was the only factor. Just one that tend to correlate. Obviously it is not as simple as deporting all the unemployed. That wouldn't be fair.

As for the relatives, they could be given the choice to stay or to leave with the deported person. That's a personal decision.

Maciamo
22-03-16, 11:54
UPDATE: an explosion also hit Maalbeek metro station at the heart of the EU neighbourhood. (Maalbeek sounds like Molenbeek but they are completely unrelated. Maalbeek is a station name, not a neighbourhood and not close to Molenbeek).

So far 13 people are reported dead and at least 35 wounded at Zaventem airport, and 15 dead at Maalbeek station.

"The Belga news agency reports that shots were fired and shouts in Arabic were heard before the two explosions. Some reports say it was a suicide attack."

Goga
22-03-16, 12:13
This is terrible. On twitter I read much more reported dead people. For how long will the EU tolerate this madness? Allcountries within the EU should act together and raise 1 voice against thecommon enemy.

Gather some courage, grow some balls and do what you need to do, NOW!

Maciamo
22-03-16, 13:08
Regardless of the number of casualties, I think that this terrorist attack is psychologically worse than the Paris attack because it struck at the heart of the European neighbourhood during the morning rush hour for EU workers, which means that the whole EU is affected. It also means that it is the European Union who cannot defend itself, not just Belgium. It's high time EU-wide (FBI style) police and homeland security forces were established.

I live in Brussels and frequently go to the EU neighbourhood where the explosion happened. For those of you who aren't in Brussels, you should know that since the Paris attacks 4 months ago, Belgian soldiers have already been posted at practically all important metro stations as well as in Brussels-Zaventem Airport. It did not deter terrorists at all. That is visibly not the solution. These are half-measures that attempted to reassure the population. Now, even that won't reassure anybody.

Alan
22-03-16, 13:27
Three days ago, Erdogan who was angered by the fact that Kurds were allowed to protest against him said this about Brussel.

"There is no reason why a bomb like in Ankara couldn't go up in Brussel"

Advise/Warning or threatning? I have my doubts about the Istanbul bombing also, since most of the victims were either foreigners, Jews, westerners or unliked shias.

https://www.facebook.com/Hinter.d.Kulissen/videos/995369040556954/?fref=nf

(https://www.facebook.com/Hinter.d.Kulissen/videos/995369040556954/?fref=nf)
condolense to the familys of the victims

bicicleur
22-03-16, 13:35
True, I do agree with you that deportation is the best solution. Deportation of Muslims (Northern Africans) already happened in Europe, Spain. "Expulsion of the Moriscos": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos . But This is not that simple. What about their relatives? If uneducated and unemployed Muslim with radical ideas and hatred toward the West is married and has little children who are born in Europe, should they also be deported? But I don't agree with you that ONLY unemployment should be the only criteria. Lacking of any education and a criminal record would be a much better criteria together with unemployment. If someone is unemployed, has no education and has a criminal record, he/she has not really a very bright future right? To survive he would make more radical, extreme and outlaw choices. Such people should be deported. But then again, what about their parents or children. The best solution should be if someone wants to denounce Islam. Everyone who doesn't want to abandon Islam should be deported. Why? Because Islam is the enemy of the Western Values!

you don't know these Maghrebi people that live in the Brussels suburbs
they form their own ghetto and don't want to integrate
they should have been sent back 30 years ago

bicicleur
22-03-16, 13:37
Three days ago, Erdogan who was angered by the fact that Kurds were allowed to protest against him said this about Brussel.

"There is no reason why a bomb like in Ankara couldn't go up in Brussel"

Advise/Warning or threatning? I have my doubts about the Istanbul bombing also, since most of the victims were either foreigners, Jews, westerners or unliked shias.

https://www.facebook.com/Hinter.d.Kulissen/videos/995369040556954/?fref=nf

(https://www.facebook.com/Hinter.d.Kulissen/videos/995369040556954/?fref=nf)
condolense to the familys of the victims

it was not a Kurdish attack, it was ISIS
it was not Erdogan's enemy, it was his friends who attacked

bicicleur
22-03-16, 13:42
IMO ISIS was preparing a big attack in several European cities this spring.

They caught Saleh Abdeslam yesterday and found weapons and detonators in the house, but not explosives, so it was clear something was underway.

I think though it was a setback for ISIS which crossed their big plan.
They now executed plan B with far less casualties than their plan A.

But of course more attacks may follow.

Alan
22-03-16, 13:48
it was not a Kurdish attack, it was ISIS
it was not Erdogan's enemy, it was his friends who attacked

I know, neither was the attacks in Ankara (where hundred of Kurds and leftists died) or Istanbul(where Jews, Westerners and Shias died), they were allegedly ISIS, I was just pointing out the obvious. Erdogan "warned" the EU the same could happen in Brussel three days ago, because he was furious that Kurds were allowed to demonstrate there.

Angela
22-03-16, 15:41
In response to this horror, I hear the usual drivel on CNN. Widening the security circle around airports is not really the solution. Yes, you can stop cars on the way to the airport, but that will make air travel so inconvenient that it will have a huge, negative effect on the economy. In addition, the long line of stalled cars is just another target. Plus, what are you going to do at train stations, subway stations, bus stations?

What is needed is intelligence. That's why the shutting down of groups like the New York City one that was focused on infiltrating mosques and Islamic groups was so incredibly stupid.

Donald Trump has already weighed in, of course, saying he would have had this detainee water boarded. First of all, although it may be likely that he had knowledge of this, we don't know it yet. Then, that is now specifically against the law in the U.S., and some military leaders and counter-terrorism people have already gone on record that they wouldn't follow an order to commit war crimes. So, again, it will get him votes, without any chance that it will happen as things stand now.

In terms of Europe, the establishment of an EU wide counter-terrorism organization would seem absolutely essential. The police forces of these smaller countries, in particular, don't seem to have the resources or the expertise, and there has to be a central organization where all the information is gathered.

One other thing I would say is that I think it's a good idea that the media have censored themselves in terms of broadcasting about the things that law enforcement is doing. It seems to escape people that bad guys watch television, and use the information to their benefit.

As to expelling people, and putting it in American terms, it's one thing to expel illegal immigrants or refugees; it's entirely another thing to expel American citizens without a trial and conviction for terrorist activity. That would involve a shredding of the American constitution. I don't think it will ever happen, but if it does, I hope I'm not alive to see it.

bicicleur
22-03-16, 16:03
I won't listen to the media any more today, to avoid hearing the same things 20 more times.

Of course Trump will benefit, because there are so many things that should have been said and done before the attack that never were said and done.
They have presented him an open goal in which he can score.
Trump should never have made it this far as a candidate.
But it is because so many things remained untold.

I agree it is very hard to expell people once they are in. They shouldn't be allowed in that easy. We should be very critical about those coming in, and those who we let in should not get a permit for permanent stay. It should be conditional with a trial period of a couple of years whiole they are monitored. Those who are not integrated and can't support themselves after that trial period should be sent back again.

Fire Haired14
22-03-16, 16:37
Waiting for Obama to give another "They're not real Muslims. They're a tiny minority. We need to let in Syrian refugees" speech. However, when crazy people in America shoot schools, there's something wrong with American society according to Obama.

As arrogant and racist and unprepared people say Trump is, one thing he will do is protect us.

Alan
22-03-16, 16:42
you don't know these Maghrebi people that live in the Brussels suburbs
they form their own ghetto and don't want to integrate
they should have been sent back 30 years ago

Were the bombers third generation Maghrebis? I heard this kind of rumors.

Alan
22-03-16, 16:43
Waiting for Obama to give another "They're not real Muslims. They're a tiny minority. We need to let in Syrian refugees" speech. However, when crazy people in America shoot schools, there's something wrong with American society according to Obama.

As arrogant and racist and unprepared people say Trump is, one thing he will do is protect us.

However as far as I have learned these guys were not refugees but third generation immigrants who have been living there for long. In Belgium they have build literally their own Ghettos.

Yetos
22-03-16, 16:45
After the minute of silence and respect,
Let the dead find peace at the underworls island of hapiness,
may their sleep awake the Gods,

Maciamo
22-03-16, 17:09
In response to this horror, I hear the usual drivel on CNN. Widening the security circle around airports is not really the solution. Yes, you can stop cars on the way to the airport, but that will make air travel so inconvenient that it will have a huge, negative effect on the economy. In addition, the long line of stalled cars is just another target. Plus, what are you going to do at train stations, subway stations, bus stations?

What is needed is intelligence. That's why the shutting down of groups like the New York City one that was focused on infiltrating mosques and Islamic groups was so incredibly stupid.

Donald Trump has already weighed in, of course, saying he would have had this detainee water boarded. First of all, although it may be likely that he had knowledge of this, we don't know it yet. Then, that is now specifically against the law in the U.S., and some military leaders and counter-terrorism people have already gone on record that they wouldn't follow an order to commit war crimes. So, again, it will get him votes, without any chance that it will happen as things stand now.

In terms of Europe, the establishment of an EU wide counter-terrorism organization would seem absolutely essential. The police forces of these smaller countries, in particular, don't seem to have the resources or the expertise, and there has to be a central organization where all the information is gathered.

One other thing I would say is that I think it's a good idea that the media have censored themselves in terms of broadcasting about the things that law enforcement is doing. It seems to escape people that bad guys watch television, and use the information to their benefit.

I agree with everything you said.



As to expelling people, and putting it in American terms, it's one thing to expel illegal immigrants or refugees; it's entirely another thing to expel American citizens without a trial and conviction for terrorist activity. That would involve a shredding of the American constitution. I don't think it will ever happen, but if it does, I hope I'm not alive to see it.

The Muslims ghettoes in Brussels are mostly composed of Moroccans. Many of them still have Moroccan nationality even if they are third-generation migrants, as Belgium does not automatically grant citizenship to people born in the country like in the US. It's actually not very difficult to get Belgian citizenship, but many of these immigrants don't bother doing it. Until a few years ago Belgium didn't allow dual citizenship, so becoming Belgian meant giving up their nationality.

For those who already have Belgian (or other EU) citizenship, the easiest thing to do would be to pass a law to strip Muslims of their citizenship if:
- they have a criminal record
- belong to organisations supporting terrorism (including making donations or attending meetings)
- are caught expressing views in support of religious extremism, terrorism, or the like.

It's just a matter of political will. This kind of law could be passed almost immediately as citizenship law is not inscribed in the constitution (nothing like the Fourteenth Amendment here).

bicicleur
22-03-16, 17:15
However as far as I have learned these guys were not refugees but third generation immigrants who have been living there for long. In Belgium they have build literally their own Ghettos.

Most of Belgian Syria fighters are 3rd generation Maghrebi. Belgium has the highest number per capita of Syria fighters in Europe.
And yes these bombers came back from Syria. Just like the Maghrebi new year eve rapists in Köln they came back to Europe with false Syrian pasports and mixed among Syrian refugees.

It is the only community of foreigners that stay in such ghettos and don't integrate at all.
They don't get a job and many live on drug traficking and small crimes.
In France there are such ghettos too, as France had many colonies in Northern Africa.

Pointing a finger at them was considered racism.

And yes, they are Muslims and they are not a tiny minority.

bicicleur
22-03-16, 17:17
For those who already have Belgian (or other EU) citizenship, the easiest thing to do would be to pass a law to strip Muslims of their citizenship if:
- they have a criminal record
- belong to organisations supporting terrorism (including making donations or attending meetings)
- are caught expressing views in support of religious extremism, terrorism, or the like.

I'm afraid the Brussels suburbs will become half depopulated.

gyms
22-03-16, 18:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbINrdyAXlE

Victor Orban gives historic speech and appears to be putting Hungary on a war footing.(03.15.2016.)

LeBrok
22-03-16, 18:58
It is terrible to wake up to the news like this. My heart goes to all Belgians.


IMO ISIS was preparing a big attack in several European cities this spring.

They caught Saleh Abdeslam yesterday and found weapons and detonators in the house, but not explosives, so it was clear something was underway.

I think though it was a setback for ISIS which crossed their big plan.
They now executed plan B with far less casualties than their plan A.

But of course more attacks may follow.
I think this is the case. Police was on their backs and they needed to rush the attacks.
I hope Belgian police will flash away and capture all of the terrorists and in time improve their techniques finding newly formed cells quickly. Your immigration policy need to be revised too. Belgium became a magnet for radical Muslims and the lazy immigrants.
Good Luck friends.

Maciamo
22-03-16, 19:21
I'm afraid the Brussels suburbs will become half depopulated.

Only the northern and western suburbs. Anyway better depopulated and safe than full of Islamists and potential terrorists.

Maciamo
22-03-16, 19:29
Pointing a finger at them was considered racism.

It may have been. Now it's common sense. Anyway I never liked how the term racism could be applied so loosely when talking about a group that is not a race, but a particular members of society that are better defined by their social class and religious extremism. Racism would be hate/discrimination against all Arabs, regardless of their social class, education, religion (many are Christian or Jewish, and some even Agnostic or Atheistic). That is not the case. People rightly fear religious extremists who have nothing to loose in life and don't mind blowing themselves up for their beliefs to kill as many people as possible. If anyone think that such fear is racism, then they are not better than the terrorists and should be arrested for defending them.

Angela
22-03-16, 22:10
It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

@Fire-Haired,
Any Republican would be good on this issue, even Kasich, unlike the Democrat candidates; we don't need that clown Trump. What we also don't need is more of the Obama foreign policy, like Kerry's visit to Paris after the bombings...a wreathe of flowers, a hug, and James Taylor singing "You've Got a Friend". Pathetic doesn't begin to describe it. Meanwhile, Hollande's plea to stop batting away bees and go after the hive were ignored by this administration. This is the modern Democrat Party.

Also, nice as these light displays in the European capitols are, what they need to do is focus less on symbolism, forget their childish ethnic and nationalistic disputes, and put together an EU wide plan for immigration, refugees and security. Otherwise, just scrap the whole damn thing. This is a joke.

Oh, and meanwhile the U.S President is watching a baseball game in Cuba and discussing the long term deleterious effects of colonialism, global initiatives against poverty, and other progressive goals with those champions of civil rights, the Castro Brothers.

He is the definition of an empty suit. A Nato ally has been attacked. He should be in the Situation Room in contact with European leaders hammering out a plan.

You couldn't make this up.

All of that said, if you're going to strip people of their citizenship for committing crimes, then it should apply to everyone. You can't penalize people just based on their ethnicity and religion.

ThirdTerm
22-03-16, 22:58
Molenbeek seems to be full of wannabe jihadists and this is where Salah Abdeslam was captured in a recent raid. The bombings may be closely related to Abdeslam's arrest. His fingerprints were found in an apartment in Brussels during a raid last week, when officers also found the type of detonators that may have been used in the attack today. It's unfortunate that today's attack could have been prevented, if the Belgian authorities had connected dots and rounded up Abdeslam's associates, who are still hiding in Molenbeek.

bicicleur
23-03-16, 00:34
It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.


afaik it is not the Belgian authorities who told this guy was going to talk
it was his lawyer who proposed to make a deal with this guy in return for information
it was the same lawyer who said he would sew the French authorney because he had made public info about the interrogation of Saleh Abdeslam

these lawyers defend these kind of well-known terrorists and criminals almost for free, because of all the publicity they get from that (allthough they don't admit it, they say that they are the saviours of the justice principles)

and the dogs are sniffing the luguage to be boarded on the planes, they are not sniffing everybody who enters the airport boarding hall

bicicleur
23-03-16, 00:40
Molenbeek seems to be full of wannabe jihadists and this is where Salah Abdeslam was captured in a recent raid. The bombings may be closely related to Abdeslam's arrest. His fingerprints were found in an apartment in Brussels during a raid last week, when officers also found the type of detonators that may have been used in the attack today. It's unfortunate that today's attack could have been prevented, if the Belgian authorities had connected dots and rounded up Abdeslam's associates, who are still hiding in Molenbeek.

this is not just a tiny group of extremists
there are a lot of people in Molenbeek and other Brussels suburbs who are not actively involved but who sympathise
that is how Abdeslam was able to hide himself for 4 months, during which period he lived in at least 4 different hideouts around Brussels
but saying such things has been a taboo

Maciamo
23-03-16, 08:40
It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

It is indeed ridiculous. All Belgians know that the Belgian police is a joke. By the way, many policemen in Brussels are of Moroccan extraction, so they may not be efficient at catching their fellow Moroccans on purpose.

I confirm that I have never seen sniffing dogs in metro stations or airports in Belgium.




Any Republican would be good on this issue, even Kasich, unlike the Democrat candidates; we don't need that clown Trump. What we also don't need is more of the Obama foreign policy, like Kerry's visit to Paris after the bombings...a wreathe of flowers, a hug, and James Taylor singing "You've Got a Friend". Pathetic doesn't begin to describe it. Meanwhile, Hollande's plea to stop batting away bees and go after the hive were ignored by this administration. This is the modern Democrat Party.

Also, nice as these light displays in the European capitols are, what they need to do is focus less on symbolism, forget their childish ethnic and nationalistic disputes, and put together an EU wide plan for immigration, refugees and security. Otherwise, just scrap the whole damn thing. This is a joke.

Oh, and meanwhile the U.S President is watching a baseball game in Cuba and discussing the long term deleterious effects of colonialism, global initiatives against poverty, and other progressive goals with those champions of civil rights, the Castro Brothers.

He is the definition of an empty suit. A Nato ally has been attacked. He should be in the Situation Room in contact with European leaders hammering out a plan.

I agree with all this. But what do you think the American president be doing concretely in such a situation ? It's mostly the EU that should get its act together and make in-depth reforms about immigration, refugees and security, as you said. The US could maybe consult to help establish security agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security at the EU level.


All of that said, if you're going to strip people of their citizenship for committing crimes, then it should apply to everyone. You can't penalize people just based on their ethnicity and religion.

Europe traditionally applied the principle of jus sanguinis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis) for nationality, even though politicians have yielded to the pressure of immigrants in countries like the UK, France and Belgium to make it easier for anyone to acquire citizenship after 5 to 10 years of residence in the country.

For me the whole concept of nationality in non-colonial countries does not make much sense without a reference to ancestry. If it were up to me there would be a clear distinction between nationality, which requires continuous ancestry in one country for at least 7 generations at least on one parent's side, and permanent residence, which would confer similar rights to any family who has immigrated to the country without intermarrying (and having children) with locals.

In the case of Muslims living in Europe, if they have acquired the country's citizenship it must have happened only in the last few decades. Since they have no right of jus sanguinis their citizenship should be conditional to good behaviour. Therefore logic dictates that a criminal could be stripped of their acquired citizenship. And that is in fact the law in the UK, France and Belgium, among others.

British Law stipulates that a naturalised citizen could be deprived of their British citizenship if they engaged in conduct “seriously prejudicial” to the UK’s vital interests. (source (https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwiZ6IWXrNbLAhVCQBoKHfywAVgQFgglMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliament.uk%2Fbriefing-papers%2Fsn06820.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEtv2_a8Vj_mg6DxgZxOuN0TYpyxA&sig2=Hty9wZFE4Vy2OhH9xXvXFw&cad=rja)) That would include terrorism, but also planned terrorist activities, Islamic activism, etc.

French Law foresees five cases in which a naturalised citizen can be deprived of his/her nationality:

1. If he is convicted of an act of crime or offense constituting a breach of fundamental interests of the nation

2. If he is convicted of an act of planned crimes or offenses punishable under Chapter II of Title III of Book IV of the Criminal Code (that is to say as part of an attack on the public administration)

3. If convicted of evading his obligations under the Code of National Service

4. If they committed acts incompatible with the status of French and detrimental to the interests of France to the benefit of a foreign state

5. If he was convicted in France or abroad for an act constituting a crime under French law and that resulted in a sentence of at least five years' imprisonment

That's more than enough to strip most naturalised criminals and suspected terrorists of their citizenship and expel them from the country. I think that the law should apply also for children of naturalised citizens.


Art. 23 of the Belgian citizenship code also specifies that a naturalised citizen can be stripped of their nationality if he/she seriously neglects his duties as Belgian citizens (e.g. terrorism) (the law does mention the example of terrorism).


In conclusion, you may be right that you cannot discriminate based on ethnicity or religion. BUT, you can make a clear distinction between citizens by ancestry and naturalised citizens. Deprivation of citizenship applies to any naturalised citizens conducting criminal activities or any other activities that are seriously prejudicial to the country's interests or incompatible with the country's values. This would include any individual who belongs to an organisation that supports terrorism (even if they haven't committed terrorist acts themselves), plan the overthrow of the government, or try to establish Sharia Law, or professes values that are contrary to Western values. In other words, any radical Muslim should be stripped of their citizenship according to the law as it is now.

It would be easy enough for Western governments to infiltrate radical Islamic organisations in their country, list all the members, gather evidence, then strip them all of their citizenships and expel them back to their country or origin. This is the first and most important step in combatting terrorism.

Maleth
23-03-16, 12:29
The fact that Abdelsalam was stopped (not recognized with another four accomplice soon after the Paris bombings) and let free somehow says alot on how softly the situation is tackled. Europe has been dealing with various terrorist groups from ETA (Spanish police), IRA (British police) and Mafia (Italian police) style terror. As Renzi said there are already a good number of logistics in place these police groups adopted by time and there should be a much greater deal of synergy between them. I have a feeling that this is not happening, which is a shame if its just in the name of pride.

France must be doing something good anyway as the unfortunate terror on its soil just like the barbaric one we seen in Brussles was imported from Belgium, even though it has a much bigger Muslim community then the one in Belgium. Why is Molenbeek offering such a breeding ground? Nearly 50% of Marseilles is Muslim and while there seems to be other related crime, its not '''religious'''. So what is Molenbeek doing differently? Just asking

@Maciamo, I would suggest a change a title of this thread to Brussles bombings or something similar, since it seems more innocent people were killed at the Metro besides the airport.

Angela
23-03-16, 18:23
But what do you think the American president be doing concretely in such a situation ? It's mostly the EU that should get its act together and make in-depth reforms about immigration, refugees and security, as you said. The US could maybe consult to help establish security agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security at the EU level.

From my perspective, this isn't just an EU problem or a U.S. problem; it affects every western style democracy, and they have to present a united front. Part of what has become clear to me watching as the chaos around the world has increased during his two terms is that the U.S. has to lead these coalitions. Holland knows that; that's why he came to the U.S. after the terrorist bombings in Paris. Leading from behind hasn't worked.

So, as to what he should have done, in my opinion, he should have come home and gathered his entire national security team together, demanding precise information on how there could have been such a security failure and what part we may have played in it. Then, he should have ordered a total re-examination of our current directives on the gathering of such information both electronically and through human intelligence. This would never happen, of course; this is a President of the United States, the leader of the free world, who goes weeks without getting a briefing from the CIA or the NSA, and who gutted intelligence gathering. Of course he also wouldn't do that because that would be to acknowledge that this is a huge problem, and that indeed the west is at war with radical fundamentalist Muslims...not all Muslims, but those Muslims who espouse this ideology. You can't fight something you won't call by its real name.

There's also a symbolic component to this as well. Yes, I know I just railed against the inadequacy of lighting up buildings. However, people need to be calmed and reassured so that they can think clearly and make good decisions. That's the role of a leader. They have to believe that someone is on top of things, is in charge. They also have to be inspired to do their absolute best...why should all these security people put everything into their work when their Commander in Chief thinks listening to a dictator condescend to a President of the United States and lecture him about democracy is more important? I almost thought he would whip off his shirt to reveal a Che T-shirt. The man is a walking cliche of 60s western Marxism, a true pupil of Marcuse and Ayres.

The next thing he should have done is to start sounding out the leaders of all the European democracies and getting them to understand that they have to work together and with the United States to get a handle on the problem. Maybe that would entail a meeting of all the Defense Ministers and Security and Intelligence Chiefs of these countries. Co-ordinate enhanced intelligence gathering methods, share technology and security procedures to be used at high value targets. I would think it should be clear by now that the U.S. was right and wasn't being paranoid about what could happen. Knock some heads together, even if just figuratively, and get them to stop this nation on nation squabbling. Make it crystal clear that if they don't cut this crap out, the U.S. will leave them to drown in their own mess.

Then, there is the broader attack on ISIS. If ISIS is obliterated as a force, how strong will its appeal be then? Disaffected low level criminals who really have nothing to lose anyway, which seems to be the profile of many of these new converts, might think twice about signing on. Every video showing those monsters crucifying boys who won't convert, or raping women, or beheading people with impunity is a recruitment tool for every sick **** out there, and there's a lot of them in every nation and ethnic group, trust me on that. If Europe, and more importantly the Obama administration, hadn't pulled out of the Middle East, and telegraphed exactly when they were going to do it, to add insult to injury, ISIS could have been stopped before they got off the ground, and Europe would be facing far less of a refugee crisis, a refugee crisis that serves to bring in jihadists to add to the home grown terrorists. There also wouldn't be all these training camps for your own disaffected Muslim youths.

This is not just a defensive problem. You can never totally protect all of an area's soft targets; intelligence services can never get it right all of the time. You have to go after the source.

Maybe that would require making it a NATO mission. If Turkey won't go along with it, kick them out until they have a new leader.

bicicleur
23-03-16, 18:49
Then, there is the broader attack on ISIS. If ISIS is obliterated as a force, how strong will its appeal be then? Disaffected low level criminals who really have nothing to lose anyway, which seems to be the profile of many of these new converts, might think twice about signing on. Every video showing those monsters crucifying boys who won't convert, or raping women, or beheading people with impunity is a recruitment tool for every sick **** out there, and there's a lot of them in every nation and ethnic group, trust me on that. If Europe, and more importantly the Obama administration, hadn't pulled out of the Middle East, and telegraphed exactly when they were going to do it, to add insult to injury, ISIS could have been stopped before they got off the ground, and Europe would be facing far less of a refugee crisis, a refugee crisis that serves to bring in jihadists to add to the home grown terrorists. There also wouldn't be all these training camps for your own disaffected Muslim youths.

This is not just a defensive problem. You can never totally protect all of an area's soft targets; intelligence services can never get it right all of the time. You have to go after the source.

Maybe that would require making it a NATO mission. If Turkey won't go along with it, kick them out until they have a new leader.

I agree, ISIS and the like (e.g. Boko Haram of which nobody speaks but who makes more casualties than ISIS) should be attacked in their own home bases.
We need to make a U-turn, for what has been done till now is quite the oposit.
Both US and Europe supported Arab spring and so created an unstable area where ISIS could and still can (in Lybia) grow.
And Turkey and Saudi Arabia are still considered allies. NATO is not an option.

We should stop being naive and rely on partners that are not thrustworthy.
We shouldn't think the west can solve the problems worldwide if there are areas where the western values are not accepted.
For some areas and some instances we need some kind of martial law.

I'm very vague, I'm not an expert, I don't know the solution, I only know we are on the wrong track.

bicicleur
23-03-16, 19:00
Erdogan claims Turkey delivered one of the attackers to Belgium and Belgium released him despite warnings from the Turkish authorities.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aanslagen-Brussel/article/detail/2655651/2016/03/23/Erdogan-Dader-aanslagen-uitgeleverd-door-Turkije-maar-vrijgelaten-door-Belgie.dhtml?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458751673

I'm not sure this is true, but it is possible.
Belgian justice is a very expensive joke.

Angela
23-03-16, 19:50
Erdogan claims Turkey delivered one of the attackers to Belgium and Belgium released him despite warnings from the Turkish authorities.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aanslagen-Brussel/article/detail/2655651/2016/03/23/Erdogan-Dader-aanslagen-uitgeleverd-door-Turkije-maar-vrijgelaten-door-Belgie.dhtml?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458751673

I'm not sure this is true, but it is possible.
Belgian justice is a very expensive joke.

If it is true, does anyone know why? I ask because it's important to know whether it's mainly a question of lack of resources or lack of proper training. The "talking heads" on cable news shows seem to think it's a little of both.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/22/u-s-officials-bash-shitty-belgian-security-forces.html

Btw, I hope the Belgian people don't get too down about reports like this.

It absolutely stinks to me of typical Obama administration "cover your ***". Notice that this is coming partly from a Democratic lawmaker, and it was a featured story in "The Daily Beast" in the U.S. They want the world to believe that none of this was their fault, their policies are not to blame; it was these feckless Europeans. It's just like after nearly eight years as President he's still blaming Bush for everything that's gone wrong in the Middle East. What does he expect from a country the size of Belgium? There's more people in the New York metro area.

Where is their honor for God's sake? You kick an ally when he's down? Where is their knowledge of human psychology? Do they really want to demoralize these security people totally just when they need to up their game? Of course, once you realize that it's always and forever about ego gratification and reputation and maintaining power, and not about the country or international security, then it makes perfect sense.

@Maleth,
I think part of the answer is indeed that as I've always heard, the French security apparatus is pretty damn good, even if they don't have the kind of resources the U.S. has. From news reports, they foiled a lot of attacks; this one got past them because it was hatched in Brussels, not France.

Could another part of the puzzle be that even though France also has an integration problem, it's not as severe as the one in Belgium and Germany? I'm in France almost every year, often specifically around the Midi, and I don't get the feeling of constant tension between the two groups. I don't know though, someone with experience of all these countries would be better equipped to answer.

bicicleur
23-03-16, 20:55
I think the integration problem in Germany is less than in Belgium and France. That is due to the German government and also because there are less Maghrebi immigrants in Germany.
Belgium and France were on the same level, though France has made more progress lately.
You've visited the Midi. I wonder whether you have visited the suburbs of Marseille?
If you go to Brussels and don't go to the particular suburbs you won't feel the tensions either (except today of course).

The terrorist was released because there was no solid evidence to link him with terrorism at that moment.
So it is a problem with the law. Security forces were not even allowed to detain the man. And I guess his network helped him to dissapear from the radar at some point.
I'm sure discussions here in Belgium will follow the coming days. I think the laws have to be changed.
I don't know whether the security forces are efficient or not, but they can't do anying without the right legal framework.
Belgium as a whole is to soft with criminals.

And there is the Molenbeek and a few other suburbs with their ghettos and some kind of omerta existing.
It was an area on which the law had little grip.
That is the responability of the former socialist mayor Philippe Moureaux who didn't allow his own police force to act.
Oh, and yes there is the problem of the Brussels police force divided in 6 corpses. It is very inefficient.
The responsables are the politicians, and mainly the Brussels mayors who don't want to solve this. They want to influence their own police corps which they couldn't do if there was one unified corps. It is a big shame. It is a consequence of the Belgian 'compromise culture' of which so many politicians are proud here. Brussels should be placed under federal Belgian curatele.

Angela
23-03-16, 22:24
I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

Aaron1981
24-03-16, 00:31
I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

That's because the attitude in America is to be American first and foremost, something black and white people take equal pride in. Let's not blame the victim here. Belgians have every right to be Belgian, as do the French. They should take pride in their identity, and there is no room for hyphens, or people who have loyalty to a religion, or some other identity outside of France or Belgium. Nobody would challenge this in China, India, Japan, Iran or elsewhere, just in Europe, where you get called a racist for having loyalty to the heritage of your freaking country. It needs to stop.

bicicleur
24-03-16, 00:44
I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:
http://www.cfr.org/religion/europes-angry-muslims/p8218

you forget 9/11 and the attack on the London subway ?

the threat in Belgium doesn't come from 'the immigrants', it comes from a well-known specific corner with specific religion, ideologie and ethnicity
they chose to live in ghettos amongst each other
many of them have a criminal record, Belgium is far to leniant with them

I didn't propose a 7 generation time before they get definitive rights
but there sure should be an evaluation time which is long enough
today they arrive at the border and they apply for asylum, maybe with fake pasports and fake stories, and maybe bad intentions
immigration authorities have to accept their stories if they cannot disprove them and have to motivate if asylum is refused
even if asylum is refused, it is very dificult to sent them back, many turn into illegality
if asylum is granted, they get full citizenship rights and social security from day one, and it is irreversible
there is a big chance there are another bunch of troublemakers among the new immigrants who will cause dificulties over the next decades
we've allready seen it happening at the Köln new years eve

I don't think you can get a green card and full American citizenship by telling fake stories nobody can check?
No, they have to apply from abroad and everything is checked before they can enter America

That is the madness and the hipocrisy of 'Wir schaffen dass' and of the Geneva Convention.

Angela
24-03-16, 01:32
All this talk about terrorists coming into Europe in the last couple of years, and discussions about green cards etc. are not relevant to my argument, because it ignores the fact that many of these jihadis in Euroope are second and third generation, born and raised in Europe, and some are also citizens. There are also obviously native born people who are providing aid for would be terrorists. Pretending that this isn't the case, and that many Europeans have never made any secret of their antipathy and their disinclination to accept these people as full citizens is dishonest. The Muslims are not the only ones to blame for their alienation.

As both the Obama administration and academics have pointed out,

"Unlike their U.S. counterparts, most Muslim newcomers to western Europe started arriving only after World War II, crowding into small, culturally homogenous nations. Their influx was a new phenomenon for many host states and often unwelcome. Meanwhile, North African immigrants retained powerful attachments to their native cultures. So unlike American Muslims, who are geographically diffuse, ethnically fragmented, and generally well off, Europe's Muslims gather in bleak enclaves with their compatriots.

The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States. Unlike the jumble of nationalities that make up the American Latino community, the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam": militant Islamic resentment at Western dominance, anti-imperialism exalted by revivalism.

As the French academic Gilles Kepel acknowledges, "neither the blood spilled by Muslims from North Africa fighting in French uniforms during both world wars nor the sweat of migrant laborers, living under deplorable living conditions, who rebuilt France (and Europe) for a pittance after 1945, has made their children ... full fellow citizens."

As for 9/11, I assure you that I don't need a foreigner to remind me of it; I went to the funerals of a dozen friends who died on that day. Not one of the jihadis responsible for it was an American. Yes, we've had some isolated incidences by a few people who've spent a lot of time here, but that's exactly what they've been, isolated. We have no enclaves that are breeding grounds for terrorism and also no go zones. We have no third generation jihadis. Generally, the Muslim-American community is quite different from the one in Europe, partly perhaps because different types of people came, but partly also because they've been treated differently. Those are the facts, whether it's convenient or not.


@Aaron,
I'm not telling any country how to conduct its immigration and labor policy. I'm a firm believer in only legal, controlled immigration. Neither am I telling them how they should define themselves. However, I'll repeat; if there was never any intention to integrate these people as full citizens with equal rights, they shouldn't have been brought into the country. To think that doing less than that wouldn't eventually result in resentment and a lack of commitment to the larger society and its culture shows a stunning lack of reason and no understanding whatsoever, imo, of either personal or group psychology. You either co-opt them or they're going to be a festering enemy colony in your own country. The leaders of the United States, Canada, and Australia understood that. The Europeans didn't.


Now, as the comments seem to be veering away from reasoned discussion and into emotional responses, I'm out of this discussion.

bicicleur
24-03-16, 09:31
I've said it many times, those Maghrebis should never have been allowed.
And I blaim the Walloon socialists for that, who thaught they were importing a whole new voting public for themselves.

And it is true, America can absorb those North African immigrants because they can diffuse them over a large territory and they don't have these strong links with their home country any more.
But also America is much more selective on who they let in. They don't arrive en masse in small rubber boats on the remote American shores.

And subscribing this quote from Gilles Kepel, you might as well subscribe Trumps ideas. Both have the same validity.

And for 9/11 it may be commited by different people, the ideology that make people blow themselves up to make as many casualties as possible is the same in both cases.

Maciamo
24-03-16, 10:06
That's because the attitude in America is to be American first and foremost, something black and white people take equal pride in. Let's not blame the victim here. Belgians have every right to be Belgian, as do the French. They should take pride in their identity, and there is no room for hyphens, or people who have loyalty to a religion, or some other identity outside of France or Belgium. Nobody would challenge this in China, India, Japan, Iran or elsewhere, just in Europe, where you get called a racist for having loyalty to the heritage of your freaking country. It needs to stop.

That's also the way I see it.

Colonial countries, including the whole American continent, Australia and New Zealand, have completely different attitudes to the whole concept of citizenship, because the majority of the population are immigrants from Europe, Africa or even Asia. But anywhere else in the world citizenship is perceived as something linked with ancestry and ethnicity.

One of the concepts I like about the EU is that is confers a broader EU citizenships to all citizens of member states. This allows to have a two-level concept of citizenship, in which people can see themselves as belonging to their part of Europe (member state, country, region or whatever you call it) AND belonging to a larger country called the European Union. This allows Europeans to set aside their historical differences and see themselves as part of a common society where anyone can move, live and work anywhere else in the EU. This is the foundation idea behind the EU.

However, even EU citizenship would, in my eyes, require at least partial European ancestry, with the added condition of being born in the EU or to at least one parent with EU citizenship. I would set the minimum European ancestry to around 25% (one grand parent) so that Turks, Iranians, upper-caste Indians and Central Asians who have between 10% and 20% of Bronze Age European ancestry do not automatically qualify if they were born in Europe from first generation immigrants.


I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

I proposed 7 generations because practically any European can trace back their ancestry that far. For young people today, 7 generations means ancestors in the early to mid 19th century, during the Industrial Revolution, and after Napoleon imposed civil registries for births, marriages and deaths on over half of Europe. Seven generations of ancestors is also what modern inhabitants of Rome consider necessary for someone to be accepted as a "native Roman" (or so I was told when I was studying in Rome). The idea of seven generations has long had a symbolic value in many cultures.

Seven generations is also long enough for practically any migrant family to have intermarried with locals and absorbed local language and culture (I would hope). So far we can see that many Maghrebi families are still not integrated on any level (social, economic, religious, cultural, linguistic, political, psychological) after three generations, and in some cases even four (their marriage age being much lower than that of average Europeans). So seven generations seems like a reasonable minimum for people like that. Actually we can't know if all of them will be integrated in 3 or 4 generations from now. At the rate things are evolving, and with the ever increasing tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims since the rise of Islamic terrorism in the last 15 years, it is totally conceivable that ghetto Muslims will not integrate any faster than Gypsies have since the Middle Ages. Then there is no hope for them and it would be better for everyone if they just went back to their country of origin while they still have ties with it (for the Gypsies it's too late).

Maciamo
24-03-16, 10:31
today they arrive at the border and they apply for asylum, maybe with fake pasports and fake stories, and maybe bad intentions
immigration authorities have to accept their stories if they cannot disprove them and have to motivate if asylum is refused
even if asylum is refused, it is very dificult to sent them back, many turn into illegality
if asylum is granted, they get full citizenship rights and social security from day one, and it is irreversible
there is a big chance there are another bunch of troublemakers among the new immigrants who will cause dificulties over the next decades
we've allready seen it happening at the Köln new years eve

I don't think you can get a green card and full American citizenship by telling fake stories nobody can check?
No, they have to apply from abroad and everything is checked before they can enter America

That is the madness and the hipocrisy of 'Wir schaffen dass' and of the Geneva Convention.

Very good point. Americans are much stricter when it comes to conferring Green Cards and citizenships than we are in Europe. It is a huge mistake to grant citizenship to Third World immigrants and refugees. First they wouldn't qualify in the US because they couldn't pass any citizenship or language test, they don't have stable employment or ties to the local community. But i's not just because they aren't integrated yet. These poor immigrants and refugees come to Europe (and not the USA) because they know that once they get citizenship or permanent residence they will qualify for the very generous social security and unemployment benefits, especially in countries like Belgium and France. The system as it is now is a giant magnet for all the opportunistic, lazy, poor, illiterate and good-for-nothing people in the world. No wonder local people are fed up and governments are crumbling under debts.

The Third World immigrant situation was already bad enough before terrorism. Now it is insufferable. And it really gets on my nerves when Americans (mostly Trump and his supporters) compare the situation in Europe with Mexican immigrants to the US. I would trade all the Mexicans in the US for the Muslims of Europe in the blink of an eye! There is nothing comparable between poor, but hard-working Mexicans with Western values doing all they can to integrate in American society, and lazy opportunistic Maghrebi who come to live on free benefits, don't work, don't integrate, don't share remotely similar values, and come to bomb local people. This is when they are not conducting other criminal activities, considering that 45% for all prisoners in Belgium are Muslim, almost 10x more than there share of the population. In France 60% of people in jail are Muslim. In the prison of Forest in Brussels, 80% of the inmates are Muslim. I think that says a lot about their efforts to integrate after three generations.

bicicleur
24-03-16, 11:52
One of the concepts I like about the EU is that is confers a broader EU citizenships to all citizens of member states. This allows to have a two-level concept of citizenship, in which people can see themselves as belonging to their part of Europe (member state, country, region or whatever you call it) AND belonging to a larger country called the European Union. This allows Europeans to set aside their historical differences and see themselves as part of a common society where anyone can move, live and work anywhere else in the EU. This is the foundation idea behind the EU.

However, even EU citizenship would, in my eyes, require at least partial European ancestry, with the added condition of being born in the EU or to at least one parent with EU citizenship. I would set the minimum European ancestry to around 25% (one grand parent) so that Turks, Iranians, upper-caste Indians and Central Asians who have between 10% and 20% of Bronze Age European ancestry do not automatically qualify if they were born in Europe from first generation immigrants.


That would be ideal. I believe most Belgians would like to switch their Belgian identity for a European identity.
I think most Europeans would like to do that.
There exists something like a European identity.
And most Europeans realise that their own national identity doesn't mean anything in the world.

But politicians are opposed to that.
They cling to their own power on all levels. If there were a unified Europe, we would need much less politicians.

mr_y82
24-03-16, 18:10
^I think this is a sound point...


And to all, I wanted to say thanks for such a diplomatic thought based discussion... An uncommon commodity on this side of the pond... see the end of my post for some links that sum up ¨debate¨ over here.... (well in a couple posts; I will break this up a bit)



Donald Trump has already weighed in, of course, saying he would have had this detainee water boarded.

In terms of Europe, the establishment of an EU wide counter-terrorism organization would seem absolutely essential. The police forces of these smaller countries, in particular, don't seem to have the resources or the expertise, and there has to be a central organization where all the information is gathered.

One other thing I would say is that I think it's a good idea that the media have censored themselves in terms of broadcasting about the things that law enforcement is doing. It seems to escape people that bad guys watch television, and use the information to their benefit.

As to expelling people, and putting it in American terms, it's one thing to expel illegal immigrants or refugees; it's entirely another thing to expel American citizens without a trial and conviction for terrorist activity. That would involve a shredding of the American constitution. I don't think it will ever happen, but if it does, I hope I'm not alive to see it.

I hope we can leave Trump out of it permanently... I tend to agree with your logic... :)


It's a detail I know, but what possessed Belgian authorities to tell the press that this guy was talking? I'm sure that influenced the cells to push the attacks forward. Honestly, these people need some serious retraining. Or is there another ridiculous law that says information like that has to be released? Also, are bomb sniffing dogs deployed at transportation hubs? If they're not, they should be, and I don't mean just for a few weeks; I mean year round, seven days a week.

Fire-Haired,
Any Republican would be good on this issue, even Kasich, unlike the Democrat candidates; we don't need that clown Trump. What we also don't need is more of the Obama foreign policy, like Kerry's visit to Paris after the bombings...a wreathe of flowers, a hug, and James Taylor singing "You've Got a Friend". Pathetic doesn't begin to describe it. Meanwhile, Hollande's plea to stop batting away bees and go after the hive were ignored by this administration. This is the modern Democrat Party.

Also, nice as these light displays in the European capitols are, what they need to do is focus less on symbolism, forget their childish ethnic and nationalistic disputes, and put together an EU wide plan for immigration, refugees and security. Otherwise, just scrap the whole damn thing. This is a joke.

Oh, and meanwhile the U.S President is watching a baseball game in Cuba and discussing the long term deleterious effects of colonialism, global initiatives against poverty, and other progressive goals with those champions of civil rights, the Castro Brothers.

He is the definition of an empty suit. A Nato ally has been attacked. He should be in the Situation Room in contact with European leaders hammering out a plan.

You couldn't make this up.

All of that said, if you're going to strip people of their citizenship for committing crimes, then it should apply to everyone. You can't penalize people just based on their ethnicity and religion.

Obama may not have the answer, but suggesting any member of our GOP does, gives me pause... I think they do more to perpetuate problems (both foreign and domestically) than to solve them... This goes for both Corporately owned parties... Republicans and Democrats... Our system is broke largely because our electorate is so ignorant and disinterested...

I agree with most of what you said!


Waiting for Obama to give another "They're not real Muslims. They're a tiny minority. We need to let in Syrian refugees" speech. However, when crazy people in America shoot schools, there's something wrong with American society according to Obama.

As arrogant and racist and unprepared people say Trump is, one thing he will do is protect us.

Southern US drivel! People don´t just call Trump those things, he seems to have embraced and embodied those characteristics... Even if he´s not a racist, he´s exploiting people fear, prejudices, biases, etc... for the good of no one (ultimately including himself)...


I won't listen to the media any more today, to avoid hearing the same things 20 more times.

Of course Trump will benefit, because there are so many things that should have been said and done before the attack that never were said and done.
They have presented him an open goal in which he can score.
Trump should never have made it this far as a candidate.
But it is because so many things remained untold.

I agree it is very hard to expell people once they are in. They shouldn't be allowed in that easy. We should be very critical about those coming in, and those who we let in should not get a permit for permanent stay. It should be conditional with a trial period of a couple of years whiole they are monitored. Those who are not integrated and can't support themselves after that trial period should be sent back again.

Have you seen the movie ¨Idiocracy¨ (trailer attached to below post)? It may shed some light on how the US has regressed to the state it´s in... I wish we could figure out a way to help Europe and the World, but we´re generally too stupid to help ourselves!


From my perspective, this isn't just an EU problem or a U.S. problem; it affects every western style democracy, and they have to present a united front. Part of what has become clear to me watching as the chaos around the world has increased during his two terms is that the U.S. has to lead these coalitions. Holland knows that; that's why he came to the U.S. after the terrorist bombings in Paris. Leading from behind hasn't worked.

So, as to what he should have done, in my opinion, he should have come home and gathered his entire national security team together, demanding precise information on how there could have been such a security failure and what part we may have played in it. Then, he should have ordered a total re-examination of our current directives on the gathering of such information both electronically and through human intelligence. This would never happen, of course; this is a President of the United States, the leader of the free world, who goes weeks without getting a briefing from the CIA or the NSA, and who gutted intelligence gathering. Of course he also wouldn't do that because that would be to acknowledge that this is a huge problem, and that indeed the west is at war with radical fundamentalist Muslims...not all Muslims, but those Muslims who espouse this ideology. You can't fight something you won't call by its real name.

There's also a symbolic component to this as well. Yes, I know I just railed against the inadequacy of lighting up buildings. However, people need to be calmed and reassured so that they can think clearly and make good decisions. That's the role of a leader. They have to believe that someone is on top of things, is in charge. They also have to be inspired to do their absolute best...why should all these security people put everything into their work when their Commander in Chief thinks listening to a dictator condescend to a President of the United States and lecture him about democracy is more important? I almost thought he would whip off his shirt to reveal a Che T-shirt. The man is a walking cliche of 60s western Marxism, a true pupil of Marcuse and Ayres.

The next thing he should have done is to start sounding out the leaders of all the European democracies and getting them to understand that they have to work together and with the United States to get a handle on the problem. Maybe that would entail a meeting of all the Defense Ministers and Security and Intelligence Chiefs of these countries. Co-ordinate enhanced intelligence gathering methods, share technology and security procedures to be used at high value targets. I would think it should be clear by now that the U.S. was right and wasn't being paranoid about what could happen. Knock some heads together, even if just figuratively, and get them to stop this nation on nation squabbling. Make it crystal clear that if they don't cut this crap out, the U.S. will leave them to drown in their own mess.

Then, there is the broader attack on ISIS. If ISIS is obliterated as a force, how strong will its appeal be then? Disaffected low level criminals who really have nothing to lose anyway, which seems to be the profile of many of these new converts, might think twice about signing on. Every video showing those monsters crucifying boys who won't convert, or raping women, or beheading people with impunity is a recruitment tool for every sick **** out there, and there's a lot of them in every nation and ethnic group, trust me on that. If Europe, and more importantly the Obama administration, hadn't pulled out of the Middle East, and telegraphed exactly when they were going to do it, to add insult to injury, ISIS could have been stopped before they got off the ground, and Europe would be facing far less of a refugee crisis, a refugee crisis that serves to bring in jihadists to add to the home grown terrorists. There also wouldn't be all these training camps for your own disaffected Muslim youths.

This is not just a defensive problem. You can never totally protect all of an area's soft targets; intelligence services can never get it right all of the time. You have to go after the source.

Maybe that would require making it a NATO mission. If Turkey won't go along with it, kick them out until they have a new leader.

Again, I find myself largely in agreement, but please don´t bastardize Marx´s name by associating him with the likes of any Democrat (save maybe Bernie and a fraction of FDR, lol)... We certainly do need a strong, united coalition... If the US was not such a bully people might be more open to the idea... I agree we destabilized the Middle East... Hussein was not a nice guy, but he was a stabilizing force (and no worse than a lot of leaders we ignore due to no vested economic interest)... Anyway, I think a better plan would have been to never launch the Neoimperialist war in the first place... I guess the US formed late and we missed out on all that good Imperialism... so now we want to make up for lost time, and be like our European Brethren of old! Whilst those Brethren have become much more progressive and don´t deserve to suffer the negative consequences of ill thought out military and political interventions!

mr_y82
24-03-16, 18:15
It is indeed ridiculous. All Belgians know that the Belgian police is a joke. By the way, many policemen in Brussels are of Moroccan extraction, so they may not be efficient at catching their fellow Moroccans on purpose.

I confirm that I have never seen sniffing dogs in metro stations or airports in Belgium.

I agree with all this. But what do you think the American president be doing concretely in such a situation ? It's mostly the EU that should get its act together and make in-depth reforms about immigration, refugees and security, as you said. The US could maybe consult to help establish security agencies like the FBI and Homeland Security at the EU level.

Europe traditionally applied the principle of jus sanguinis for nationality, even though politicians have yielded to the pressure of immigrants in countries like the UK, France and Belgium to make it easier for anyone to acquire citizenship after 5 to 10 years of residence in the country.

For me the whole concept of nationality in non-colonial countries does not make much sense without a reference to ancestry. If it were up to me there would be a clear distinction between nationality, which requires continuous ancestry in one country for at least 7 generations at least on one parent's side, and permanent residence, which would confer similar rights to any family who has immigrated to the country without intermarrying (and having children) with locals.

In the case of Muslims living in Europe, if they have acquired the country's citizenship it must have happened only in the last few decades. Since they have no right of jus sanguinis their citizenship should be conditional to good behaviour. Therefore logic dictates that a criminal could be stripped of their acquired citizenship. And that is in fact the law in the UK, France and Belgium, among others.

British Law stipulates that a naturalised citizen could be deprived of their British citizenship if they engaged in conduct “seriously prejudicial” to the UK’s vital interests. That would include terrorism, but also planned terrorist activities, Islamic activism, etc.

French Law foresees five cases in which a naturalised citizen can be deprived of his/her nationality:

1. If he is convicted of an act of crime or offense constituting a breach of fundamental interests of the nation

2. If he is convicted of an act of planned crimes or offenses punishable under Chapter II of Title III of Book IV of the Criminal Code (that is to say as part of an attack on the public administration)

3. If convicted of evading his obligations under the Code of National Service

4. If they committed acts incompatible with the status of French and detrimental to the interests of France to the benefit of a foreign state

5. If he was convicted in France or abroad for an act constituting a crime under French law and that resulted in a sentence of at least five years' imprisonment

That's more than enough to strip most naturalised criminals and suspected terrorists of their citizenship and expel them from the country. I think that the law should apply also for children of naturalised citizens.

Art. 23 of the Belgian citizenship code also specifies that a naturalised citizen can be stripped of their nationality if he/she seriously neglects his duties as Belgian citizens (e.g. terrorism) (the law does mention the example of terrorism).

In conclusion, you may be right that you cannot discriminate based on ethnicity or religion. BUT, you can make a clear distinction between citizens by ancestry and naturalised citizens. Deprivation of citizenship applies to any naturalised citizens conducting criminal activities or any other activities that are seriously prejudicial to the country's interests or incompatible with the country's values. This would include any individual who belongs to an organisation that supports terrorism (even if they haven't committed terrorist acts themselves), plan the overthrow of the government, or try to establish Sharia Law, or professes values that are contrary to Western values. In other words, any radical Muslim should be stripped of their citizenship according to the law as it is now.

It would be easy enough for Western governments to infiltrate radical Islamic organisations in their country, list all the members, gather evidence, then strip them all of their citizenships and expel them back to their country or origin. This is the first and most important step in combatting terrorism.

well said. One thing this tread certainly makes clear is our problems cannot be solved simply!


I agree, ISIS and the like (e.g. Boko Haram of which nobody speaks but who makes more casualties than ISIS) should be attacked in their own home bases.
We need to make a U-turn, for what has been done till now is quite the oposit.
Both US and Europe supported Arab spring and so created an unstable area where ISIS could and still can (in Lybia) grow.
And Turkey and Saudi Arabia are still considered allies. NATO is not an option.

We should stop being naive and rely on partners that are not thrustworthy.
We shouldn't think the west can solve the problems worldwide if there are areas where the western values are not accepted.
For some areas and some instances we need some kind of martial law.

I'm very vague, I'm not an expert, I don't know the solution, I only know we are on the wrong track.

Firstly, you said THRUSTworthy! I laughed!!! :)
Indeed... We can´t just ¨kinda interfere¨ (stir things up, destabilize, and leave) and expect positive results... We created the opportunity for ISIS to rise, and now it seems we have a responsibility to react... But what are the chances we will do a better job than we have been? lol... well I guess ¨nrl¨, as the kids say... I´d like to believe Noam Chomsky... If we had just left the global status quo alone under Reagan (in the Middle East and Central America), or before... Vietnam was certainly not a bright idea either... maybe our problems today would not be so severe... I can get behind justified humanitarian intervention (if such a thing exists), but US policy has been much more about our own interests at the expense of so many nations and people... Did we not expect this to cause some tension?


That's because the attitude in America is to be American first and foremost, something black and white people take equal pride in. Let's not blame the victim here. Belgians have every right to be Belgian, as do the French. They should take pride in their identity, and there is no room for hyphens, or people who have loyalty to a religion, or some other identity outside of France or Belgium. Nobody would challenge this in China, India, Japan, Iran or elsewhere, just in Europe, where you get called a racist for having loyalty to the heritage of your freaking country. It needs to stop.

I think loyalty to heritage/nation is great so long as it does not preclude our greater identity... Might sound idealistic, but I want to be a global citizen with all who will join me. I know some will not, and I am no pacifist (even if my last name is Amish/Swiss Anabaptist), some will undoubtedly have to be dealt with as the era of global cooperation begins... but long story short guys... If we don´t change our mentality we are doomed as a species regardless, and these attacks are just the tip of the iceberg... I can be proud to live in Appalachia, I can simultaneously be proud of being a North Carolinian, an ¨American,¨ etc... Nothing wrong with that unless it influences me to have unethical attitudes toward other human beings. Let´s take the power back and use it for good.


I'm not going to go into detail about all of this because I really don't believe in heaping criticism on a country in the middle of this kind of crisis, but if the prevailing attitude is that these people can only become "real" Belgians after seven generations in the country, then not only the immigrants are to blame for their alienation. Part of the blame for all of this lies also with the Belgian people and their attitudes. If this was going to be the attitude then these people should never have been allowed to immigrate to Europe.

The attitude is very different here because of decisions made over a hundred years ago by the ruling people of mostly British descent. That's why the Islamist attacks here have been by one or two people radicalized over the internet. We don't have this kind of organized terrorist activity even among the most disadvantaged residents of our black ghettos.

I'm a naturalized American citizen, not from an "Anglo" country, and I've never been treated as a second class citizen because of that. Does anyone think that I would have such admiration for the American system, have taught my children to subscribe to an American identity and ideals if I had been? Maybe it should be a surprise that every man, woman and child in those suburbs isn't a sympathizer and co-conspirator.

The opinion of some experts:


This illuminates further the complexity of these issues... Otherwise we´d all still be on the same page. :)

mr_y82
24-03-16, 18:20
If it is true, does anyone know why? I ask because it's important to know whether it's mainly a question of lack of resources or lack of proper training. The "talking heads" on cable news shows seem to think it's a little of both.


Btw, I hope the Belgian people don't get too down about reports like this.

It absolutely stinks to me of typical Obama administration "cover your ***". Notice that this is coming partly from a Democratic lawmaker, and it was a featured story in "The Daily Beast" in the U.S. They want the world to believe that none of this was their fault, their policies are not to blame; it was these feckless Europeans. It's just like after nearly eight years as President he's still blaming Bush for everything that's gone wrong in the Middle East. What does he expect from a country the size of Belgium? There's more people in the New York metro area.

Where is their honor for God's sake? You kick an ally when he's down? Where is their knowledge of human psychology? Do they really want to demoralize these security people totally just when they need to up their game? Of course, once you realize that it's always and forever about ego gratification and reputation and maintaining power, and not about the country or international security, then it makes perfect sense.

Maleth,
I think part of the answer is indeed that as I've always heard, the French security apparatus is pretty damn good, even if they don't have the kind of resources the U.S. has. From news reports, they foiled a lot of attacks; this one got past them because it was hatched in Brussels, not France.

Could another part of the puzzle be that even though France also has an integration problem, it's not as severe as the one in Belgium and Germany? I'm in France almost every year, often specifically around the Midi, and I don't get the feeling of constant tension between the two groups. I don't know though, someone with experience of all these countries would be better equipped to answer.

Problems in the Middle East certainly have their origins long enough ago that one man in 8 years is not going to fix it... Maybe a lot of people working together and using good sense... but good sense is hardly a threat in the current US political climate... I sent the following to a friend in response to an email... Some related videos at the end of post (Trump is also creating huge revenue for the media... it´s a shame and a sham).

Happy Easter... The Bunny is one of my favorite remnants of European paganism!


I saw a clip... maybe on the daily show... in which Rubio made a good point (pause and be scared)... Pertaining to the free media coverage given Trump ($2 billion worth... more than all other GOPers together), he made the observation that he didn´t get any attention when he talked policy, but as soon as he responded to Trump´s personal attacks, with attacks of his own, the media picked it up posthaste (and primarily to tell us how sad it is that our political process has been reduced to this, which he is right in suggesting the media is perpetuating by covering it, to the exclusion of anything with SUBSTANCE)... He compared the campaign to reality shows... which I don´t think is news to any of us, but it´s a little disconcerting to find common ground with anything GOP these days...


It´s pretty clear the media is helping (intentionally or not) to make a Trump presidency a likely reality... and I certainly can´t get pumped for Hilary... I prefer that barking to her speeches of late... Her voice... it grates on my nerves...


Cheers!

mr_y82
24-03-16, 18:21
Very good point. Americans are much stricter when it comes to conferring Green Cards and citizenships than we are in Europe. It is a huge mistake to grant citizenship to Third World immigrants and refugees. First they wouldn't qualify in the US because they couldn't pass any citizenship or language test, they don't have stable employment or ties to the local community. But i's not just because they aren't integrated yet. These poor immigrants and refugees come to Europe (and not the USA) because they know that once they get citizenship or permanent residence they will qualify for the very generous social security and unemployment benefits, especially in countries like Belgium and France. The system as it is now is a giant magnet for all the opportunistic, lazy, poor, illiterate and good-for-nothing people in the world. No wonder local people are fed up and governments are crumbling under debts.


The Third World immigrant situation was already bad enough before terrorism. Now it is insufferable. And it really gets on my nerves when Americans (mostly Trump and his supporters) compare the situation in Europe with Mexican immigrants to the US. I would trade all the Mexicans in the US for the Muslims of Europe in the blink of an eye! There is nothing comparable between poor, but hard-working Mexicans with Western values doing all they can to integrate in American society, and lazy opportunistic Maghrebi who come to live on free benefits, don't work, don't integrate, don't share remotely similar values, and come to bomb local people. This is when they are not conducting other criminal activities, considering that 45% for all prisoners in Belgium are Muslim, almost 10x more than there share of the population. In France 60% of people in jail are Muslim. In the prison of Forest in Brussels, 80% of the inmates are Muslim. I think that says a lot about their efforts to integrate after three generations.

But I thought they were all rapists and murderers... All kidding aside, I would compare our hard working Mexican Americans (and other Latinos, who are more closely related to the aboriginal people of this territory anyway, before it was rudely take away by a bunch of guys with metal) more to the Turks who have been living and working in Germany for decades now... They are not a threat to our society and I am also sick of the nonsense!


That's also the way I see it.


Colonial countries, including the whole American continent, Australia and New Zealand, have completely different attitudes to the whole concept of citizenship, because the majority of the population are immigrants from Europe, Africa or even Asia. But anywhere else in the world citizenship is perceived as something linked with ancestry and ethnicity.

One of the concepts I like about the EU is that is confers a broader EU citizenships to all citizens of member states. This allows to have a two-level concept of citizenship, in which people can see themselves as belonging to their part of Europe (member state, country, region or whatever you call it) AND belonging to a larger country called the European Union. This allows Europeans to set aside their historical differences and see themselves as part of a common society where anyone can move, live and work anywhere else in the EU. This is the foundation idea behind the EU.

However, even EU citizenship would, in my eyes, require at least partial European ancestry, with the added condition of being born in the EU or to at least one parent with EU citizenship. I would set the minimum European ancestry to around 25% (one grand parent) so that Turks, Iranians, upper-caste Indians and Central Asians who have between 10% and 20% of Bronze Age European ancestry do not automatically qualify if they were born in Europe from first generation immigrants.

I proposed 7 generations because practically any European can trace back their ancestry that far. For young people today, 7 generations means ancestors in the early to mid 19th century, during the Industrial Revolution, and after Napoleon imposed civil registries for births, marriages and deaths on over half of Europe. Seven generations of ancestors is also what modern inhabitants of Rome consider necessary for someone to be accepted as a "native Roman" (or so I was told when I was studying in Rome). The idea of seven generations has long had a symbolic value in many cultures.

Seven generations is also long enough for practically any migrant family to have intermarried with locals and absorbed local language and culture (I would hope). So far we can see that many Maghrebi families are still not integrated on any level (social, economic, religious, cultural, linguistic, political, psychological) after three generations, and in some cases even four (their marriage age being much lower than that of average Europeans). So seven generations seems like a reasonable minimum for people like that. Actually we can't know if all of them will be integrated in 3 or 4 generations from now. At the rate things are evolving, and with the ever increasing tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims since the rise of Islamic terrorism in the last 15 years, it is totally conceivable that ghetto Muslims will not integrate any faster than Gypsies have since the Middle Ages. Then there is no hope for them and it would be better for everyone if they just went back to their country of origin while they still have ties with it (for the Gypsies it's too late).

I can see the validity of some of this, but also understand how it could make some uneasy... Again these issues are so complex and so many innocent good people can be affected either way (by harsh policies or unchecked terrorism)... I really appreciate the mood of the discussion here. Maybe I am used to interacting with ¨Americans¨ and expect any disagreement to descend into a riot!

Prost!


I've said it many times, those Maghrebis should never have been allowed.

And I blaim the Walloon socialists for that, who thaught they were importing a whole new voting public for themselves.

And it is true, America can absorb those North African immigrants because they can diffuse them over a large territory and they don't have these strong links with their home country any more.
But also America is much more selective on who they let in. They don't arrive en masse in small rubber boats on the remote American shores.

And subscribing this quote from Gilles Kepel, you might as well subscribe Trumps ideas. Both have the same validity.

And for 9/11 it may be commited by different people, the ideology that make people blow themselves up to make as many casualties as possible is the same in both cases.

Geography certainly does make a difference!


All this talk about terrorists coming into Europe in the last couple of years, and discussions about green cards etc. are not relevant to my argument, because it ignores the fact that many of these jihadis in Euroope are second and third generation, born and raised in Europe, and some are also citizens. There are also obviously native born people who are providing aid for would be terrorists. Pretending that this isn't the case, and that many Europeans have never made any secret of their antipathy and their disinclination to accept these people as full citizens is dishonest. The Muslims are not the only ones to blame for their alienation.


As both the Obama administration and academics have pointed out,

"Unlike their U.S. counterparts, most Muslim newcomers to western Europe started arriving only after World War II, crowding into small, culturally homogenous nations. Their influx was a new phenomenon for many host states and often unwelcome. Meanwhile, North African immigrants retained powerful attachments to their native cultures. So unlike American Muslims, who are geographically diffuse, ethnically fragmented, and generally well off, Europe's Muslims gather in bleak enclaves with their compatriots.

The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States. Unlike the jumble of nationalities that make up the American Latino community, the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam": militant Islamic resentment at Western dominance, anti-imperialism exalted by revivalism.

As the French academic Gilles Kepel acknowledges, "neither the blood spilled by Muslims from North Africa fighting in French uniforms during both world wars nor the sweat of migrant laborers, living under deplorable living conditions, who rebuilt France (and Europe) for a pittance after 1945, has made their children ... full fellow citizens."

As for 9/11, I assure you that I don't need a foreigner to remind me of it; I went to the funerals of a dozen friends who died on that day. Not one of the jihadis responsible for it was an American. Yes, we've had some isolated incidences by a few people who've spent a lot of time here, but that's exactly what they've been, isolated. We have no enclaves that are breeding grounds for terrorism and also no go zones. We have no third generation jihadis. Generally, the Muslim-American community is quite different from the one in Europe, partly perhaps because different types of people came, but partly also because they've been treated differently. Those are the facts, whether it's convenient or not.

@Aaron,
I'm not telling any country how to conduct its immigration and labor policy. I'm a firm believer in only legal, controlled immigration. Neither am I telling them how they should define themselves. However, I'll repeat; if there was never any intention to integrate these people as full citizens with equal rights, they shouldn't have been brought into the country. To think that doing less than that wouldn't eventually result in resentment and a lack of commitment to the larger society and its culture shows a stunning lack of reason and no understanding whatsoever, imo, of either personal or group psychology. You either co-opt them or they're going to be a festering enemy colony in your own country. The leaders of the United States, Canada, and Australia understood that. The Europeans didn't.

Now, as the comments seem to be veering away from reasoned discussion and into emotional responses, I'm out of this discussion.

More good points... A sad proportion of Americans don´t or can´t differentiate between Central American immigrants... Your point still stands though, there´s not the same kind of cohesion and bitterness... I appreciate all of your input on this thread. Thanks for sharing and being diplomatic!



The promised videos... Surely none of the well spoken individuals in this thread think either of these two are the answer...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMZqS7q7voY



http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/hillary-ad-mocks-trump/2016/03/17/id/719619/



Soon this will be us!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGUNPMPrxvA

LeBrok
25-03-16, 02:06
I proposed 7 generations because practically any European can trace back their ancestry that far. For young people today, 7 generations means ancestors in the early to mid 19th century, during the Industrial Revolution, and after Napoleon imposed civil registries for births, marriages and deaths on over half of Europe. Seven generations of ancestors is also what modern inhabitants of Rome consider necessary for someone to be accepted as a "native Roman" (or so I was told when I was studying in Rome). The idea of seven generations has long had a symbolic value in many cultures.
7 must be a lucky number. It won't work in Eastern Europe though, where records were destroyed in many recent wars, WW1 and 2, Bolshevik Revolution, uprisings , domestic wars, you name it, plus many fires of wooden churches where most certificates were kept, etc. History of last 200 years were not kind for Eastern Europe.


Seven generations is also long enough for practically any migrant family to have intermarried with locals and absorbed local language and culture (I would hope). So far we can see that many Maghrebi families are still not integrated on any level (social, economic, religious, cultural, linguistic, political, psychological) after three generations, and in some cases even four (their marriage age being much lower than that of average Europeans). So seven generations seems like a reasonable minimum for people like that. Actually we can't know if all of them will be integrated in 3 or 4 generations from now. At the rate things are evolving, and with the ever increasing tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims since the rise of Islamic terrorism in the last 15 years, it is totally conceivable that ghetto Muslims will not integrate any faster than Gypsies have since the Middle Ages. Then there is no hope for them and it would be better for everyone if they just went back to their country of origin while they still have ties with it (for the Gypsies it's too late).
There are always few weird cases to throw off a perfect plan. Are Gypsies Europeans? Even though they didn't intermarry with locals, or got assimilated much? Are Jews in Israel, whose parents or grandparents lived in Europe, able to get EU citizenship? What about Europeans who de-assimilated themselves, became buddhists with all their traditions and values, or became Islamic Terrorists. Where are they going to live if their EU citizenship is revoked? No other country will accept them. Perhaps Antarctica? Antarctica becomes new Australia for modern convicts.

What does it mean to assimilate? Apart from language and subscribing to democratic values, what about religion, clothing, music, dancing, food, alcohol, calendar, holidays, symbols, jewelry, traditions, etc. I'm curious if there is a scale, for example in Germany which is strong on assimilation, against which assimilation could be measured?
For me most important are western values of freedom, equality, tolerance and democracy, and of course language for communication. If an immigrant doesn't subscribe to them, is out. On other hand half of Europeans wouldn't pass the criteria.
It almost impossible to devise anything acceptable in this regard to pass through EU legislation and implement it. Europe is too diverse in its borders to have one solid measure for integration and assimilation.

LeBrok
25-03-16, 07:48
^I think this is a sound point...


And to all, I wanted to say thanks for such a diplomatic thought based discussion... An uncommon commodity on this side of the pond...We are trying to keep it civilized here. Not always works, but we don't spare the effort.



Obama may not have the answer, but suggesting any member of our GOP does, gives me pause... I think they do more to perpetuate problems (both foreign and domestically) than to solve them... This goes for both Corporately owned parties... Republicans and Democrats... It is hard to say if Obama's philosophy, either on domestic or foreign arena, is the right one. Only future will tell. However, I appreciate his willingness to try something new. For example, if decades of hardline sanctions can't keep Iran from atom bomb, let's try engagment, negotiations and new deals. Perhaps a promise of a bigger carrot will have greater value for Iranian leaders than owning nuclear weapon. If decades of sanctions couldn't make a dent in Cuba's terrible conduct, let's try humain face and seduction of American goods. It might work it might not, but at least let's try.
Actually there are great examples of friendly engagement with enemy bringing positive results. When Reagan opened to Gorbachev communist block dissolved few years later. When China opened to US and vice versa, we have 500 million middle class buying western goods and enjoying more freedoms, in spite of communist party still in power and I'm sure its days are numbered.


Our system is broke largely because our electorate is so ignorant and disinterested... Whole democratic world is in the same pickle, I suppose. What would be the way to improve on Democracy, so we always have the smartest and most honest politicians of us all.


Southern US drivel! People don´t just call Trump those things, he seems to have embraced and embodied those characteristics... Even if he´s not a racist, he´s exploiting people fear, prejudices, biases, etc... for the good of no one (ultimately including himself)...
I completely agree, he plays his electorate like a fiddle.



Hussein was not a nice guy, but he was a stabilizing force (and no worse than a lot of leaders we ignore due to no vested economic interest)... Anyway, I think a better plan would have been to never launch the Neoimperialist war in the first place... Sooner or later Hussein would be gone and Iraq disintegrated in 3 parts. US only accelerated the process. Keeping a bloody dictator indefinitely in power it is not a viable solution, neither for Iraqis nor for the world. Change needed to happen.

Maciamo
25-03-16, 11:57
7 must be a lucky number. It won't work in Eastern Europe though, where records were destroyed in many recent wars, WW1 and 2, Bolshevik Revolution, uprisings , domestic wars, you name it, plus many fires of wooden churches where most certificates were kept, etc. History of last 200 years were not kind for Eastern Europe.

Hence the alternative of DNA tests. I wasn't clear enough, but there are two possibilities for citizenship:

1) Prove that the family has been in the country for 7 generations

2) Have at least 25% of European DNA for EU citizenship + being born in Europe (otherwise most North and South Americans and Australians would qualify too).



There are always few weird cases to throw off a perfect plan. Are Gypsies Europeans? Even though they didn't intermarry with locals, or got assimilated much? Are Jews in Israel, whose parents or grandparents lived in Europe, able to get EU citizenship?

Both Gypsies and Jews did mix to some extent with Europeans. Ashkenazi Jews have the highest percentage of European ancestry. Using Eurogenes K=15 they have 32% of North Sea; Atlantic, Baltic, and Eastern Euro + nearly 15% of West Mediterranean. So they are almost half European, and almost as European as South Italians and Greeks, and considerably more than Cypriots (who have 14% + 16% using the same admixtures). I don't have the admixture data for the Gypsies, but I expect at least 20% of European ancestry.


What about Europeans who de-assimilated themselves, became buddhists with all their traditions and values, or became Islamic Terrorists. Where are they going to live if their EU citizenship is revoked? No other country will accept them. Perhaps Antarctica? Antarctica becomes new Australia for modern convicts.

I don't see how Buddhist values clash with modern Western ones. If anything they might be more compatible than Christian values from an Atheist point of view (Buddhism being an Atheist religion, so actually more a philosophy or lifestyle than an actual religion). Nowadays about half of people in northern and central Europe are Agnostics or Atheists (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32016-Lack-of-religious-affiliation-set-to-become-mainstream-in-Western-countries) (the main exceptions being Ireland and Poland), and the percentage increases every year.

If an ethnic European converts to Islam and becomes a terrorist, he should be executed, like all terrorists. I have always supported death penalty for terrorists, serial killers and war criminals (but not in other cases). So ethnicity and citizenship are irrelevant for terrorists. If such a person were simply to join a radical Islamist group, then they should be imprisoned as you can't send them back to their home country. Anyway such cases are extremely rare and they won't affect much prison population.



What does it mean to assimilate? Apart from language and subscribing to democratic values, what about religion, clothing, music, dancing, food, alcohol, calendar, holidays, symbols, jewelry, traditions, etc. I'm curious if there is a scale, for example in Germany which is strong on assimilation, against which assimilation could be measured?

Assimilate means mostly:

- Learning the local language with the aim of speaking it like a native speaker. This may not be possible for most adult immigrants, but their children, especially if born and raised in the new host country, should have no difficulty. If the children and grandchildren or immigrants still do not speak the local language properly it means that they have little contact with the local community, do not go to compulsory school, do not socialise with locals, etc.

- Subscribing to democratic values and respecting the freedoms and rights defined by the constitution (or other relevant laws).

- Understand the country's political system

- Being economically active as an adult

- Do not engage in criminal activities

Other things you mention like clothing, music, dancing, food, alcohol, jewellery and traditions are less important, although they play a part in integration.

Integration is a gradual process. It's not black or white. People are more or less integrated, for example on a scale from 0 to 10. Each small thing you mention contribute to the level of integration. It's not because you always listen to your ancestral country's music that you aren't integrated, if in every other respect you behave like a local citizen.

When I say that someone is not integrated, I mean that they have adopted less than 50% (or often less than 30%) of the local ways and customs. The poorly integrated Moroccans of Molenbeek speak Arabic (or French with a strong Arabic accent and grammar as they speak in Morocco), eat Moroccan food, listen to Arabic music, follow the rules of Islam (even when it's illegal in Belgium, like sacrificing sheep in their bathtub) and follow the Moroccan traditions and holidays, and none of the Belgian ones. If in addition they don't socialise or intermarry with Belgians, don't have jobs, don't pay taxes and engage in criminal activities to survive, then their integration level is close to 0. And unfortunately it is the case of many of them.

A religion like Islam acts as a strong deterrent against integration because it is a religion that aims to dictate how everything in a Muslim's life should be done. That is why Islam is so popular in poor countries with weak or selfish governments that do not care about their citizens. Islam takes over the role of the government in these countries. This is also why Muslims (especially if they aren't very educated or intellectually flexible) cannot or do not want to integrate in Western countries.

Modern Western countries value a certain amount of freedom and cultural diversity, as long as they do not go against the fundamental values of democracy. The problem of religion, and particularly of dogmatic religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism, is that they cannot adapt to modern values and lifestyle. I would consider that religious fundamentalists and extremists can never properly integrate in the EU, whether they are Muslim or Christian.


For me most important are western values of freedom, equality, tolerance and democracy, and of course language for communication. If an immigrant doesn't subscribe to them, is out. On other hand half of Europeans wouldn't pass the criteria.

He is out ? I only proposed to expel radical Muslims promoting Jihad and the violent overthrow of Western society. How many ethnic Europeans do you know who would adhere to such values ?

Note that I have nothing against ethnic Arabs who aren't particularly religious (or downright Atheistic) and lead a peaceful life in Europe. Regarding food, I also eat falafel, hummus and couscous from time to time, and much more often curry, which could be seen as a partly Muslim dish too (Pakistan, Bangladesh + parts of India are all Muslim). Turkey and Indonesia are good examples of Muslim countries where I didn't feel uncomfortable when I visited them because they are relatively secular, democratic and tolerant (especially when compared to places like Saudi Arabia).



It almost impossible to devise anything acceptable in this regard to pass through EU legislation and implement it. Europe is too diverse in its borders to have one solid measure for integration and assimilation.

I strongly disagree. I have always been in favour of cultural diversity and tolerance (N.B.: my wife isn't European), but only as long as it respects fundamental democratic values. Islamists want to impose their Sharia Law and their religion on Westerners and kill those who resist (just as the IS is doing in Syria now). This is a complete breach of democratic values. How can you say that it is impossible to pass EU-wide laws against that ? It is already illegal. It's just that governments are not enforcing enough the law and expelling foreigners who hold such extremist beliefs.

bicicleur
25-03-16, 12:37
What does it mean to assimilate? Apart from language and subscribing to democratic values, what about religion, clothing, music, dancing, food, alcohol, calendar, holidays, symbols, jewelry, traditions, etc. I'm curious if there is a scale, for example in Germany which is strong on assimilation, against which assimilation could be measured?
For me most important are western values of freedom, equality, tolerance and democracy, and of course language for communication. If an immigrant doesn't subscribe to them, is out. On other hand half of Europeans wouldn't pass the criteria.
It almost impossible to devise anything acceptable in this regard to pass through EU legislation and implement it. Europe is too diverse in its borders to have one solid measure for integration and assimilation.

half of the Europeans wouldn't subscribe these values?
where did you get that?
do you have info to support that or are you just asuming that? that would make you a racist, Lebrok ;-)
I think you have a totally wrong idea of Europeans in general

it is like Europeans would listen to Trump and believe every American thinks like Trump

yes, Europe is diverse, but I believe something like European identity exists, it is politicians that don't want to give up national/regional identities in fear of losing their power bases.
If Europe were one we would need a lot less administrators, but also a lot of politicians would becom jobless
I have to admit I'm pessimistic about that, but it is not because of what is in the European peoples mind

Carlos
25-03-16, 17:32
My sincere condolences to all the families of the victims of the terrorist attacks of Brussels. My mother has been crying all day.

mr_y82
25-03-16, 17:37
Yes, this^ first and foremost. My heart aches every time this happens... And for innocent civilians who have been slain otherwise in recent years.


half of the Europeans wouldn't subscribe these values?
where did you get that?
do you have info to support that or are you just asuming that? that would make you a racist, Lebrok ;-)
I think you have a totally wrong idea of Europeans in general

it is like Europeans would listen to Trump and believe every American thinks like Trump

yes, Europe is diverse, but I believe something like European identity exists, it is politicians that don't want to give up national/regional identities in fear of losing their power bases.
If Europe were one we would need a lot less administrators, but also a lot of politicians would becom jobless
I have to admit I'm pessimistic about that, but it is not because of what is in the European peoples mind

you guys are just further clarifying the complexity of the issue... the balance between liberty and security, the effort to keep people safe while trying not to infringe on rights unduly... It is a tricky business... Trump studied a lot of Hitler and seems to model his public appearance style after Mussolini, so we here in the US especially need to make sure we don´t slip into the same kind of (albeit more subtle) traps of Germans before WWII... It´s a potentially dangerous and slippery slope...


We are trying to keep it civilized here. Not always works, but we don't spare the effort.[/COLOR][/FONT]


It is hard to say if Obama's [/COLOR]philosophy, either on domestic or foreign arena, is the right one. Only future will tell. However, I appreciate his willingness to try something new. For example, if decades of hardline sanctions can't keep Iran from atom bomb, let's try engagment, negotiations and new deals. Perhaps a promise of a bigger carrot will have greater value for Iranian leaders than owning nuclear weapon. If decades of sanctions couldn't make a dent in Cuba's terrible conduct, let's try humain face and seduction of American goods. It might work it might not, but at least let's try.
Actually there are great examples of friendly engagement with enemy bringing positive results. When Reagan opened to Gorbachev communist block dissolved few years later. When China opened to US and vice versa, we have 500 million middle class buying western goods and enjoying more freedoms, in spite of communist party still in power and I'm sure its days are numbered.

Whole democratic world is in the same pickle, I suppose. What would be the way to improve on Democracy, so we always have the smartest and most honest politicians of us all.

I completely agree, he plays his electorate like a fiddle.


Sooner or later Hussein would be gone and Iraq disintegrated in 3 parts. US only accelerated the process. Keeping a bloody dictator indefinitely in power it is not a viable solution, neither for Iraqis nor for the world. Change needed to happen.

Civil is good and much more productive... :) I agree with you we need to use our mouths, not our bombs, to figure out how to get along as a species... What a novel idea! I can grant Reagan a little credit for Glasnost, but it´s overshadowed by his interventions in the middle east and central american. Obama is, in my opinion, a much better president than he gets credit for in the South (and maybe elsewhere), but I still see him as an establishment candidate who stands for lobbies and corporate interests (even if he says otherwise)... When <5% control 95%+ of the wealth it´s hard to prevent them from controlling the entire process! We didn´t learn a lot from the Gilded Age!

I agree Hussein was a problem, but meanwhile female circumcision was still occurring in Sudan, there were a variety of warlords tearing Africa apart, and there was still plenty of corruption in the Middle East and elsewhere... Here´s my problem... First we were there for WMDs... Didn´t pan out so we decided it was out job to bring democracy to the Iraqi people... What a joke! In my mind (and I am not the origin of such thinking), revolution has to start in the hearts and minds of the people revolting, not some imperialist country thousands of miles away... Imagine if France had a vested interest in naval stores, or tobacco, or whatever, and they wanted to control that economy... So, they invade the continental US and then attempt to force us to fight, with them, against the Brits... I am pretty sure we would have been very suspicious, and probably turned our guns on the French, before sorting out of differences with the Brits... Franklin went to France, and appealed for support in our effort, because we had a Podunk army and our navy consisted of some guys floating around on driftwood (yes, I am exaggerating... a bit). The French graciously agreed to help us and here we are today, free to elect one of the dumbest individuals to ever strive for the US presidency... and to make fun of our French allies (¨freedom fries¨ *shudder*)... Good for us! lol...

Anyway, had an Iraqi independence movement appealed to us for help fighting off a brutal dictator, I may have enlisted myself! I just don´t think that we stood a chance of success because of the nature of our entry into the war and our Imperialist past in the region, dating to well before the first Gulf War... I might just be confused and naive though! :)

Cheers LeBrock!


Hence the alternative of DNA tests. I wasn't clear enough, but there are two possibilities for citizenship:

1) Prove that the family has been in the country for 7 generations

2) Have at least 25% of European DNA for EU citizenship + being born in Europe (otherwise most North and South Americans and Australians would qualify too).




Both Gypsies and Jews did mix to some extent with Europeans. Ashkenazi Jews have the highest percentage of European ancestry. Using Eurogenes K=15 they have 32% of North Sea; Atlantic, Baltic, and Eastern Euro + nearly 15% of West Mediterranean. So they are almost half European, and almost as European as South Italians and Greeks, and considerably more than Cypriots (who have 14% + 16% using the same admixtures). I don't have the admixture data for the Gypsies, but I expect at least 20% of European ancestry.



I don't see how Buddhist values clash with modern Western ones. If anything they might be more compatible than Christian values from an Atheist point of view (Buddhism being an Atheist religion, so actually more a philosophy or lifestyle than an actual religion). Nowadays about half of people in northern and central Europe are Agnostics or Atheists (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32016-Lack-of-religious-affiliation-set-to-become-mainstream-in-Western-countries) (the main exceptions being Ireland and Poland), and the percentage increases every year.

If an ethnic European converts to Islam and becomes a terrorist, he should be executed, like all terrorists. I have always supported death penalty for terrorists, serial killers and war criminals (but not in other cases). So ethnicity and citizenship are irrelevant for terrorists. If such a person were simply to join a radical Islamist group, then they should be imprisoned as you can't send them back to their home country. Anyway such cases are extremely rare and they won't affect much prison population.




Assimilate means mostly:

- Learning the local language with the aim of speaking it like a native speaker. This may not be possible for most adult immigrants, but their children, especially if born and raised in the new host country, should have no difficulty. If the children and grandchildren or immigrants still do not speak the local language properly it means that they have little contact with the local community, do not go to compulsory school, do not socialise with locals, etc.

- Subscribing to democratic values and respecting the freedoms and rights defined by the constitution (or other relevant laws).

- Understand the country's political system

- Being economically active as an adult

- Do not engage in criminal activities

Other things you mention like clothing, music, dancing, food, alcohol, jewellery and traditions are less important, although they play a part in integration.

Integration is a gradual process. It's not black or white. People are more or less integrated, for example on a scale from 0 to 10. Each small thing you mention contribute to the level of integration. It's not because you always listen to your ancestral country's music that you aren't integrated, if in every other respect you behave like a local citizen.

When I say that someone is not integrated, I mean that they have adopted less than 50% (or often less than 30%) of the local ways and customs. The poorly integrated Moroccans of Molenbeek speak Arabic (or French with a strong Arabic accent and grammar as they speak in Morocco), eat Moroccan food, listen to Arabic music, follow the rules of Islam (even when it's illegal in Belgium, like sacrificing sheep in their bathtub) and follow the Moroccan traditions and holidays, and none of the Belgian ones. If in addition they don't socialise or intermarry with Belgians, don't have jobs, don't pay taxes and engage in criminal activities to survive, then their integration level is close to 0. And unfortunately it is the case of many of them.

A religion like Islam acts as a strong deterrent against integration because it is a religion that aims to dictate how everything in a Muslim's life should be done. That is why Islam is so popular in poor countries with weak or selfish governments that do not care about their citizens. Islam takes over the role of the government in these countries. This is also why Muslims (especially if they aren't very educated or intellectually flexible) cannot or do not want to integrate in Western countries.

Modern Western countries value a certain amount of freedom and cultural diversity, as long as they do not go against the fundamental values of democracy. The problem of religion, and particularly of dogmatic religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism, is that they cannot adapt to modern values and lifestyle. I would consider that religious fundamentalists and extremists can never properly integrate in the EU, whether they are Muslim or Christian.

He is out ? I only proposed to expel radical Muslims promoting Jihad and the violent overthrow of Western society. How many ethnic Europeans do you know who would adhere to such values ?

Note that I have nothing against ethnic Arabs who aren't particularly religious (or downright Atheistic) and lead a peaceful life in Europe. Regarding food, I also eat falafel, hummus and couscous from time to time, and much more often curry, which could be seen as a partly Muslim dish too (Pakistan, Bangladesh + parts of India are all Muslim). Turkey and Indonesia are good examples of Muslim countries where I didn't feel uncomfortable when I visited them because they are relatively secular, democratic and tolerant (especially when compared to places like Saudi Arabia).

I strongly disagree. I have always been in favour of cultural diversity and tolerance (N.B.: my wife isn't European), but only as long as it respects fundamental democratic values. Islamists want to impose their Sharia Law and their religion on Westerners and kill those who resist (just as the IS is doing in Syria now). This is a complete breach of democratic values. How can you say that it is impossible to pass EU-wide laws against that ? It is already illegal. It's just that governments are not enforcing enough the law and expelling foreigners who hold such extremist beliefs.

Totally out of unrelated curiosity, where is your wife from? Maciamo, I think Islam can evolve and become generally less fundamentalist. I don´t think it´s unsalvageable... I have a great deal of respect for Muslims I have met here in the US and those whom I have gotten to know are kind-hearted people, who embody some of the universal ideals their doctrine shares with other religions, specifically respect for others and love rather than hate... The Bible can be used for similarly radical purposes/ideologies (and is here in the US); I have never done an in depth study of the Quran or Bible (beyond exposure due to being an ex-catholic... I am not a Zennonite, lol... it´s not really a thing, but it sounds cool... ¨Buddhist¨+ Amish ancestry), but from what I have read I don´t think the Quran is significantly more radical than the Bible (esp. the Old Testament)... Am I wrong? I think Islam can, and for many many people around the world, has transcended the need to be a homogeneous forcec and destroy the separation of church and state... Maybe I am too much of an optimist or idealist in this regard, but sitting here in a rural town in the safety of the US might make that easier than for you, who have just suffered another tragic attack and are reeling with the effects of that reality.

Cheers Maciamo!

Carlos
25-03-16, 17:50
Killer in Spain to cook in Belgium.

Belgium refuses to extradite the alleged ETA member Nativity ...
http://www.lavanguardia.com/.../belgica-niega-extraditar-presunta-etarra-nativi...

Jauregui Espina, Spanish escape from justice since 1979 and detained in Belgium this October, has been released for "immediate" way
http://www.abc.es/espana/20131120/abci-extradicion-etarra-201311201801.html

A Belgian court has denied the extradition of ETA Ventura Tomé Quiroga, a 17-year sentence pending in Spain. ... The terrorist is pending a sentence of 17 years in prison for placing explosives.
http://www.elperiodico.com/.../belgica-niega-extradicion-del-etarra-tome-quiro...

Belgium refuses to send an ETA member to Spain for alleged risk of torture and leave it free
The Spanish Foreign Ministry has moved its "deep concern" that no protest despite the insult received, the Belgian Government and the European Commission by the Ghent court decision denying the extradition to Spain of ETA
http://xyzediciones.com/belgica-se-niega-a-enviar-a-una-etarra-a-espana-porque-alegan-riesgo-de-torturas-y-la-dejan-libre/

BELGIAN PARADISE OF ALLEGED ETA member
Jauregui remained fled more than 30 years, until he was found and arrested in Belgium. However, it not is judged on charges of murder and belonging to a terrorist organization imposed on it due to an unpublished decision of Justice of Belgium, which has refused to extradite to Spain.

I hope that does not happen again such disunity, barbarity and injustice in Europe. In Spain we have experience with the cruel and savage terrorism E.T.A. and after 11M with those beasts that threaten our world and way of life.

Maleth
25-03-16, 18:51
Y The Bible can be used for similarly radical purposes/ideologies (and is here in the US); I have never done an in depth study of the Quran or Bible (beyond exposure due to being an ex-catholic... I am not a Zennonite, lol... it´s not really a thing, but it sounds cool... ¨Buddhist¨+ Amish ancestry), but from what I have read I don´t think the Quran is significantly more radical than the Bible (esp. the Old Testament)... Am I wrong?

There are some fundamental differences and one can interpret basically anything the way they want to to any direction they would like it to go. They all claim Abraham as the founder. Most things written in the Quran all have a link to the The Jewish Torah (Old testament found in the bible) One can find in the three literature's a kind of angry god that is in a constant battle with the satan (the one who he himself created but betrayed him) so the ideology is that god is good, he had to chose some people to represent him and the rest (who were satans servants unless they converted) were continuous ordered to be slaughtered and kill non believers with this angry god giving a helping hand (The flood story, sodom and gomorah, the misfortunes of the Egyptians pharaohs to support Moses..... so and and so forth)

These are stories to be found in all three religions. The main difference is that some just over 2000 years ago there was a new movement called the Jesus movement that believe that Jesus was sent by his father (god) to perfect the atrocities that were committed in the name of religion. He was very anti establishment saying things like eye for an eye tooth for a tooth happens no more...its turn your cheek kind of thing. He abolished stoning (story of Maria Magdelene) we are all sinners so who are we to stone?, he also promoted forgiving (how much shall we forgive asked a disciple, he said 7 for seven for seven times). There are many more anti establishment quotes and comments, and a good chunk of the Gospel is slamming the pharisees (who could be equivalent to book keepers and lived by the book, that ordered stoning and things of the sort). So while Christians like to say that Jesus perfected things, in reality he clearly challenged the old establishment.....and that was ultimately the reason why he was executed which happens to be celebrated today.

Now some 600 years after this new movement of challenging the establishment a new person Mohamed came along and he describes both Christians and Jews (because they were not practicing the mosaic law word to word) as lost people. Now here came the revival of the Mosaic law especially Deuteronomy that allows all these atrocities to happen in the name of god. So stoning and killing people because of sin (satan) amoungst so many other things like the allowance to marry four wives (mosaic law) so on and so forth. These teachings were revived and became law.

Today most Christian countries have separated the law of Religion and that of the state, however there are many Muslim countries that are still run by religions law (in this case the Muslim one). The Sharia law differs greatly from one country to the other and some have very soft approaches towards it while others are radical.

Now having said all this logical and realistic people try to find softer interpretations not to promote unnecessary violence and persecution. The irony with the Christian religion is that while its founder had preached so much tolerance and peace and charity, example the popes during the middle ages had to quote the old testament to justify the crusades, that killing in the name of god is ok and also quoted some verses from the Gospel to persecute Jews (for example)

This is very simply stated, as its much more complicated then this. One can go into much more detail into what the literature say and how it worked on the Psyche of the people in different regions of the world and how it all evolved by time and how it all was woven with changing times especially with growing knowledge and Science.

mr_y82
25-03-16, 20:02
Thanks Maleth. I (obviously) knew about the Abrahamic origin of the 3 faiths, and I am aware that Islam has (like all other major religions) a form of the ¨Golden Rule¨ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Islam)

¨Aheb li akheek ma tuhibu li nafsik. This can be translated as "Wish for your brother, what you wish for yourself" or "Love your brother as you love yourself".¨

¨"...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."
— Quran (Surah 24 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nur), "The Light", v. 22)¨

etc....

---------------


I have spent a great deal of time studying human consciousness, and the evolution of consciousness throughout history. In my opinion (and again I am not the origin of the idea, Ken Wilber is the transpersonal psychologist I borrowed this from) the shift from the Old Testament power god (vengeful and violent as you say) to the New Testament mentality of forgiveness, compassion, and more equality (but a strict doctrine and Absolute Truth) represents a greater paradigm shift that swept across society... My assumption was that Mohammed took this legacy and extended it; I know he shifted from a nonviolent approach to a reactionary/defensive position, but I thought Islam promoted peace and equality in general (in doctrine and amongst many followers, obviously there are exceptions). My belief in the evolution of human consciousness is one reason I think that Islam can (and in some places does) still fit within the framework of democratic western society, but it may only resemble itself once that transition occurs/finishes... I think a literal interpretation of any religious doctrine, especially dating 1500-3000+ years, is a mistaken trajectory, but I know many will be reluctant to give up those positions (Christian and Muslim alike)... I think it can work (and I would like it to), but that does not mean that it will.

Ken Wilber wrote a book called ¨Up From Eden¨ on the subject of societal evolution and how it corresponds with individual evolution of the consciousness (he wrote a lot more too, but this one deals specifically with societal evolution)... He proposes 4 quadrants (in all his work), as on the chart below... You have ¨exterior,¨ ¨interior,¨ ¨individual,¨ and ¨collective.¨ Taken together they form 4 areas we can ¨observe¨ evolution in...

¨Interior self¨ would be your subjective experience at each level, ¨exterior self¨ if what others can observe and the ¨science¨ that makes you you... ¨interior collective¨ is like the collective subjective experience of a society ("culture"...think of anthropologists who want to understand society from the point of view of the people, and what it ¨means¨ to them, versus the objective approach of trying to understand the structure and function of society in "scientific" terms, stripping it of it´s cultural meaning and trying to understand the root purpose of rituals etc. in terms of how they help a society meet its needs and survive...); the latter is the ¨exterior collective¨... So everyone from Freud to Jung, from Aristotle to Descartes to Maslow, from tribal religions to the western philosophical ¨religions¨ exist on this spectrum, and as humans we share the same capacity to awaken greater and greater understandings, but the global population is not equally evolved...

7656
Some New-Agers, here in the states at least, want to believe all cultures are equally valid; they deny hierarchy in human consciousness because they believe it to be misguided (and this is reinforced when they mistakenly compare it to outdated anthropological practices that supposed some humans were "better" than others)... But in essence they are saying their position of cultural relativism is better than not believing in cultural relativism, and thus they create a hierarchy and destroy their own position...

Anyway... I have great respect also for Sufism, or indeed any member of any religion who does not promote self righteous positions of Absolute Truth and silly dogma... I believe that Jesus, Muhammad, Siddhartha, and others realized truths that had not occurred to most others around them at the time, and at the core their teachings were the same (or similar); most religious texts, when literalism is discarded, can be interpreted along very similar lines.

A related field called Spiral Dynamics has emerged that deals with the same concepts... I will stop with my lecture, but include this final image to help clarify the murky waters I may have stirred up!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7zrkd5RcoEM/URc4vZdOnmI/AAAAAAAAAqw/VodDG_8SR2E/s1600/spiral_dynamics_aqal_simple.jpg

Maleth
25-03-16, 20:50
Thanks Maleth. I (obviously) knew about the Abrahamic origin of the 3 faiths, and I am aware that Islam has (like all other major religions) a form of the ¨Golden Rule¨ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Islam)

¨Aheb li akheek ma tuhibu li nafsik. This can be translated as "Wish for your brother, what you wish for yourself" or "Love your brother as you love yourself".¨

¨"...and you should forgive And overlook: Do you not like God to forgive you? And Allah is The Merciful Forgiving."
— Quran (Surah 24 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nur), "The Light", v. 22)¨

etc.... That is exactly what I meant when you can pick and choose for someone to take it where ever they like:- At the same breath to this there is

Quran (2:191-193) (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura2.html#191) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you"

Quran (3:56) (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura3.html#56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (4:104) (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
And there is so much more violence to quote. These teachings came 600 years after Christianity where the founder has rejected converting people by violence but spoke mostly of the hereafter and the suffering will be done in hell.---------------



I have spent a great deal of time studying human consciousness, and the evolution of consciousness throughout history. In my opinion (and again I am not the origin of the idea, Ken Wilber is the transpersonal psychologist I borrowed this from) the shift from the Old Testament power god (vengeful and violent as you say) to the New Testament mentality of forgiveness, compassion, and more equality (but a strict doctrine and Absolute Truth) represents a greater paradigm shift that swept across society... My assumption was that Mohammed took this legacy and extended it

Not exactly so in my opinion. Dont forget that Mohamed was a warrior himself and spent the last few years of his life fighting the pagans in Mecca. Jesus never had an army and Rome was not converted by war, there was never a Christian army that attacked Pagan Rome.


I know he shifted from a nonviolent approach to a reactionary/defensive position, but I thought Islam promoted peace and equality in general (in doctrine and amongst many followers, obviously there are exceptions). My belief in the evolution of human consciousness is one reason I think that Islam can (and in some places does) still fit within the framework of democratic western society, but it may only resemble itself once that transition occurs/finishes... I think a literal interpretation of any religious doctrine, especially dating 1500-3000+ years, is a mistaken trajectory, but I know many will be reluctant to give up those positions (Christian and Muslim alike)... I think it can work (and I would like it to), but that does not mean that it will.

My experience with Muslims is also that they are normal people and as societies they are very kind and friendly and cannot do enough to help you. I have a friend who been to Syria before the civil war, and told me he was impressed with the hospitality and was really looking forward to go back. Personally I have been to Tunisa and Beirut. Both were nice experiences. Tunis was a bit dodgie in the Kasba, but it was more people haressing you to shop and getting abit agressive you did buy nothing. People who worked in Libya always praised how friendly the Libyans where and some of them left really in the last moment when things got out of hand. However they are very sensitive to Religion and no one can even discuss it and have their own dogmatic approaches towards it. (I consider its just like how Christianity was even up to a 100 years ago) But as I have stated before they also have their pains visa vi Western society and Politics and religion can be intertwined and Religion always used as an excuse. Example the Palestine issue and the creation of Israel has created a huge resentment towards what we call the west, and the west has not really been kind to them even in the aftermath (like insult to injury kind of thing) and they see it as a huge injustice. They even have their own interpretation of the crusades and the aggression it brought about. It all depends on the sentiments of the day and political evolution of the time.

mr_y82
25-03-16, 21:56
^all well said... My interpretation of the Crusades is very critical of Europe... Seems unrealistic to believe anything other than that those were dark violent times that had little to do with what Christianity (New Testament) teaches... Anyway, I do see your point about picking and choosing (people here do that all the time... using the old testament to condemn gays while eating their pork and shellfish while wearing their cotton polyester blends, and planting more than one crop in the same field, etc...Thanks Leviticus!). I agree that Christianity was still similarly trouble not all that long ago, and we have still some pretty weird Fundamentalists remaining, lol... Google "Holy Ghost People" (i.e. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40931991?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).

One thing I find curious is that seemingly preexisting Arab culture "hijacked" (no pun intended) some of the teachings of Islam, just as Paganism influenced Christianity in Europe... What I mean is, it seems in early Islam, as they conquered Northern Africa etc, they practiced a great amount of religious tolerance to hold the large empires together (similar to the Persians, Alexander the Great , etc...), and persecuted people much less that Christianity did, esp. later when it was stronger and divided (Inquisition, etc...)... Islam proposed equality for women too, but local culture again derailed that (in my eyes)... So maybe we need to be careful not to blame some cultural faults on a doctrine that they don't necessarily follow to a tee?

Doesn't even the New Testament have it's share of violence passages and dogmatic statements?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Descriptions_of_violence_2


I will give this a listen when I get home... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 (of course here in the US NPR may be considering liberal quackery, but relative to Europe it's much more center of the road...).

Thanks for the conversation!

ADDENDUM: CAN I CHANGE MY SETTINGS SO THAT I AM NOT SIGNED OUT SO QUICKLY??? I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ AND RESPOND TO POSTS BEFORE IT BOOTS ME, LOL... GUESS I AM SUPPOSED TO READ AND TYPE FASTER!!! :)

Garrick
26-03-16, 03:44
half of the Europeans wouldn't subscribe these values?
where did you get that?
do you have info to support that or are you just asuming that? that would make you a racist, Lebrok ;-)
I think you have a totally wrong idea of Europeans in general

it is like Europeans would listen to Trump and believe every American thinks like Trump

yes, Europe is diverse, but I believe something like European identity exists, it is politicians that don't want to give up national/regional identities in fear of losing their power bases.
If Europe were one we would need a lot less administrators, but also a lot of politicians would becom jobless
I have to admit I'm pessimistic about that, but it is not because of what is in the European peoples mind

Terrorism is European problem, and it is better level, rather than each country individually acts.

European identity exists despite differences, and some common values exist.

I'm slightly more optimistic, events will affect faster integration.

bicicleur
26-03-16, 09:42
Killer in Spain to cook in Belgium.

Belgium refuses to extradite the alleged ETA member Nativity ...
http://www.lavanguardia.com/.../belgica-niega-extraditar-presunta-etarra-nativi...

Jauregui Espina, Spanish escape from justice since 1979 and detained in Belgium this October, has been released for "immediate" way
http://www.abc.es/espana/20131120/abci-extradicion-etarra-201311201801.html

A Belgian court has denied the extradition of ETA Ventura Tomé Quiroga, a 17-year sentence pending in Spain. ... The terrorist is pending a sentence of 17 years in prison for placing explosives.
http://www.elperiodico.com/.../belgica-niega-extradicion-del-etarra-tome-quiro...

Belgium refuses to send an ETA member to Spain for alleged risk of torture and leave it free
The Spanish Foreign Ministry has moved its "deep concern" that no protest despite the insult received, the Belgian Government and the European Commission by the Ghent court decision denying the extradition to Spain of ETA
http://xyzediciones.com/belgica-se-niega-a-enviar-a-una-etarra-a-espana-porque-alegan-riesgo-de-torturas-y-la-dejan-libre/

BELGIAN PARADISE OF ALLEGED ETA member
Jauregui remained fled more than 30 years, until he was found and arrested in Belgium. However, it not is judged on charges of murder and belonging to a terrorist organization imposed on it due to an unpublished decision of Justice of Belgium, which has refused to extradite to Spain.

I hope that does not happen again such disunity, barbarity and injustice in Europe. In Spain we have experience with the cruel and savage terrorism E.T.A. and after 11M with those beasts that threaten our world and way of life.

I can't tell whether this is correct or not, I don't know the details.
I can only say, the Belgian juridical power is very arrogant. It claims to know everything and does not allow criticism.
In their mind, that is how it should be.
I guess it is the same in other countries.

bicicleur
26-03-16, 10:08
Belgian authorities believe they've arrested the 3rd bomber on Brussels airport

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/36484/Aanslagen-Brussel/article/detail/2658109/2016/03/26/Is-journalist-terrorist-met-hoedje.dhtml?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1458972681

he resembles the man seen on camera in the airport
he wouldn't have been able to detonate his bomb as he was blown away by the explosion of the other bombs
but he escaped

the man arrested now calls himself a 'freelance reporter'
during his 'reports' he becomes angry in front of the camera because of 'injustice done to Muslims in Belgian prisons'

bicicleur
26-03-16, 10:13
king Abdullah of Jordan acuses Erdogan of sending jihadis to Europe

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/jordans-king-accuses-turkey-sending-terrorists-europe-1687591648

I believe him

Frau Merkel, John Kerry, Obama, I know this is inconvenient for you, but it is time to wake up.

Don't tell this to Trump. He would love to elaborate on this.

bicicleur
26-03-16, 10:23
^all well said... My interpretation of the Crusades is very critical of Europe... Seems unrealistic to believe anything other than that those were dark violent times that had little to do with what Christianity (New Testament) teaches... Anyway, I do see your point about picking and choosing (people here do that all the time... using the old testament to condemn gays while eating their pork and shellfish while wearing their cotton polyester blends, and planting more than one crop in the same field, etc...Thanks Leviticus!). I agree that Christianity was still similarly trouble not all that long ago, and we have still some pretty weird Fundamentalists remaining, lol... Google "Holy Ghost People" (i.e. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40931991?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).

One thing I find curious is that seemingly preexisting Arab culture "hijacked" (no pun intended) some of the teachings of Islam, just as Paganism influenced Christianity in Europe... What I mean is, it seems in early Islam, as they conquered Northern Africa etc, they practiced a great amount of religious tolerance to hold the large empires together (similar to the Persians, Alexander the Great , etc...), and persecuted people much less that Christianity did, esp. later when it was stronger and divided (Inquisition, etc...)... Islam proposed equality for women too, but local culture again derailed that (in my eyes)... So maybe we need to be careful not to blame some cultural faults on a doctrine that they don't necessarily follow to a tee?

Doesn't even the New Testament have it's share of violence passages and dogmatic statements?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Descriptions_of_violence_2


I will give this a listen when I get home... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 (of course here in the US NPR may be considering liberal quackery, but relative to Europe it's much more center of the road...).

Thanks for the conversation!

ADDENDUM: CAN I CHANGE MY SETTINGS SO THAT I AM NOT SIGNED OUT SO QUICKLY??? I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ AND RESPOND TO POSTS BEFORE IT BOOTS ME, LOL... GUESS I AM SUPPOSED TO READ AND TYPE FASTER!!! :)

Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?

Maleth
26-03-16, 13:20
^all well said... My interpretation of the Crusades is very critical of Europe... Seems unrealistic to believe anything other than that those were dark violent times that had little to do with what Christianity (New Testament) teaches... Anyway, I do see your point about picking and choosing (people here do that all the time... using the old testament to condemn gays while eating their pork and shellfish while wearing their cotton polyester blends, and planting more than one crop in the same field, etc...Thanks Leviticus!). I agree that Christianity was still similarly trouble not all that long ago, and we have still some pretty weird Fundamentalists remaining, lol... Google "Holy Ghost People" (i.e. http://www.jstor.org/stable/40931991?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents).

I am very much aware of the hypocrisy with these people, and I am a homosexual so I do understand these kind of persecutation, BUT yet again their is a very important difference you are missing out on. Radical Christians (such as evangelists I presume) and some others embark on verbal persecutions and never incited killing for any kind of what they perceive as a sin. In the Quran you have these horrible and Nazi like doctrine:-

Abu Dawud


Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.

Abu Dawud (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts) 38:4447 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4447)

Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death.
Abu Dawud (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Compendium_of_Muslim_Texts) 38:4448 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4448)


These are texts written at least 600 years after Jesus. You do not find any of these texts in the new testament. So there is a big difference. Again we always come to the same issue. As a non religious person I find the Islamic texts much more offensive to instruct someone for their life to be terminated in the name of a god. Such actions are inspired in the Quran by the Jewish Torah (The old testament)

Lev. 20:13



"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them," (NASB).
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them," (ESV).

Again here there is a very important difference as I have explained before:- The new testament superceeds the old testament and Christianity makes a clear distinction that it has made a new covenant with god. That means alot of fundamental differences, including eating pork, marrying one women, end of killing (stoning) in the name of god for non believers and so much more. Mohamed has revived all this. The Quran mentions Jesus as one of the great prophets but NONE of his teachings are there. Of course they cannot as they would be in TOTAL contradiction with the new revived Mosaic Law. Please note I am discussing things from a historical prospective and not a religious one, as personally I find Religion a total waste of time and rather then mystical I find it to be much more politcal.


One thing I find curious is that seemingly preexisting Arab culture "hijacked" (no pun intended) some of the teachings of Islam, just as Paganism influenced Christianity in Europe... What I mean is, it seems in early Islam, as they conquered Northern Africa etc, they practiced a great amount of religious tolerance to hold the large empires together (similar to the Persians, Alexander the Great , etc...), and persecuted people much less that Christianity did, esp. later when it was stronger and divided (Inquisition, etc...)...

Again we come to the choose your pick to justify anything desired at the time. There was a time when Islam was more tolerant then Christianity but that also has to be seen in a geographical context and in which time frame. There were different factions who gave different interpretation to their religion. We still have that today in 2016. But one generally speaking even though a minority Islam produced the most radical religious motivated groups, that use terror on a global scale to promote their believes. This happens on a much much bigger scale then any other 'Religion world wide'. I dont think I need to prove my point, its a well established fact. This of course does not mean that all Muslims are like that like some individuls are so ready to state. I do not believe that this will always be the case but it will take a long time for things to level out.



Islam proposed equality for women too, but local culture again derailed that (in my eyes)... So maybe we need to be careful not to blame some cultural faults on a doctrine that they don't necessarily follow to a tee?

Im not sure if its just cultural because again the Quran like the Torah (old testament) and sometimes in the New testament too (but not in Jesus teachings. It was Mary magdeline who saw him first risen the writings say) always projected women as inferior to men and all the mathematics lead that women are worth half of men. Even in Sharia law example women inherit half of what men do. So In Islam we still see a situation were they are quite eager to follow to a tee (so to speak). Both Christians and Jews have managed to rise above that, even though somehow they seem to go against their own scriptures. Maybe separating Church (Religion) from state was a good beginning. Something that does not happen very much in Islamic communities.



Doesn't even the New Testament have it's share of violence passages and dogmatic statements?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence#Descriptions_of_violence_2


I will give this a listen when I get home... http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 (of course here in the US NPR may be considering liberal quackery, but relative to Europe it's much more center of the road...).

As i have said before to make it simple and straight to the point the New testament clearly does not incite violence or killings to other human beings. The Quran has direct references to kill people if they are perceived to be seen as satanic. This is a big big difference.


Thanks for the conversation!

you are most welcome


ADDENDUM: CAN I CHANGE MY SETTINGS SO THAT I AM NOT SIGNED OUT SO QUICKLY??? I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ AND RESPOND TO POSTS BEFORE IT BOOTS ME, LOL... GUESS I AM SUPPOSED TO READ AND TYPE FASTER!!! :)

Same thing happens to me if its a rather long post. What I do I copy all text just in case it boots me out and loose what i have written. Sometimes what you write is not lost, but it dosent always happen so better to copy before to just paste it after :). I think it works better if you click on Go Advanced before posting.

PS. Please excuse bold type as I could not fix in any way :)

Garrick
26-03-16, 15:18
Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?

Just all told, reputation.

In the Middle ages Balkan countries have been developed as countries in Central Europe, Britain or Scandinavia. But unfortunately these countries have not had lack and for centuries they have been occupied by Ottoman Empire.

Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia have been longest under Ottoman rule and they have been hardly liberated during the 19th and in early 20th century.

Today Turkish leadership does not hide that their country has neo Ottoman ambitions and this causes concern among the peoples in Balkans (Christians and Atheists). But Erdogan is counting on the support of people in Islamic areas of the Balkans who were Ottoman allies in the time of Ottoman Empire.

I hope that neo Ottoman ambitions are short lived and that European integrations will whole Balkans move toward progress.

Angela
26-03-16, 17:49
Just read the following this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attacks-police.html?_r=0

Between what is highlighted in the article and reports about laws saying you can't raid private homes at night, it's a wonder there haven't been more large scale attacks.

Obviously, I'm not clued in to how things work in some European countries. Why, precisely, were the two resignations not accepted? The one official, Green, deserves to get sacked for trying to weasel out of responsibility, if for no other reasons. The only statement that is adequate in these circumstances is, "I accept full responsibility". Who does he think is responsible for the lack of training, sense of urgency, etc. of the people under his command? Like I said, "Weasel".

@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.

mr_y82
26-03-16, 18:19
^doesn't sound good!


Explain, why is Erdogan so popular amongst Turkish Muslims when he tells them fairy tales about good old Ottomans and Muslim supremacy, like Muslims that discovered America first.
Why is it so easy to hijack Islam for such fascist ideas?

I am not qualified to answer this (Garrick's answer sounds good to me! But I am curious to research some)... You guys are obviously more aware of the current political landscape on your side of the pond... I feel like I have helped steer the conversation away from the topic, but it's still related and you guys seem tolerant of an evolving conversation. :good_job:


1) Radical Christians (such as evangelists I presume) and some others embark on verbal persecutions and never incited killing for any kind of what they perceive as a sin. In the Quran you have these horrible and Nazi like doctrine:-
...

These are texts written at least 600 years after Jesus. 2)You do not find any of these texts in the new testament. So there is a big difference. Again we always come to the same issue. As a non religious person I find the Islamic texts much more offensive to instruct someone for their life to be terminated in the name of a god. Such actions are inspired in the Quran by the Jewish Torah (The old testament)

Lev. 20:13



"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them," (NASB).
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them," (ESV).

Again here there is a very important difference as I have explained before:- The new testament superceeds the old testament and Christianity makes a clear distinction that it has made a new covenant with god. That means alot of fundamental differences, including eating pork, marrying one women, end of killing (stoning) in the name of god for non believers and so much more. Mohamed has revived all this. The Quran mentions Jesus as one of the great prophets but NONE of his teachings are there. Of course they cannot as they would be in TOTAL contradiction with the new revived Mosaic Law. Please note I am discussing things from a historical prospective and not a religious one, as personally 3)I find Religion a total waste of time and rather then mystical I find it to be much more politcal.

Again we come to the choose your pick to justify anything desired at the time. There was a time when Islam was more tolerant then Christianity but that also has to be seen in a geographical context and in which time frame. There were different factions who gave different interpretation to their religion. We still have that today in 2016. But one generally speaking 4)even though a minority Islam produced the most radical religious motivated groups, that use terror on a global scale to promote their believes. This happens on a much much bigger scale then any other 'Religion world wide'. I dont think I need to prove my point, its a well established fact. 5)This of course does not mean that all Muslims are like that like some individuls are so ready to state. I do not believe that this will always be the case but it will take a long time for things to level out.

Im not sure if its just cultural because again the Quran like the Torah (old testament) and sometimes in the New testament too (but not in Jesus teachings. It was Mary magdeline who saw him first risen the writings say) always projected women as inferior to men and all the mathematics lead that women are worth half of men. 6)Even in Sharia law example women inherit half of what men do. So In Islam we still see a situation were they are quite eager to follow to a tee (so to speak). Both Christians and Jews have managed to rise above that, even though somehow they seem to go against their own scriptures. 7)Maybe separating Church (Religion) from state was a good beginning. Something that does not happen very much in Islamic communities.

As i have said before to make it simple and straight to the point the New testament clearly does not incite violence or killings to other human beings. The Quran has direct references to kill people if they are perceived to be seen as satanic. This is a big big difference.

you are most welcome

8) Same thing happens to me if its a rather long post. What I do I copy all text just in case it boots me out and loose what i have written.
PS. Please excuse bold type as I could not fix in any way :)

my underlining/numbers above... I think we share a lot of views and values... I really value the input from those of you who are closer to this and know more about the nuances... Thanks as always for the feedback.

1) Fair enough, but as you pointed out before Christianity transformed pretty quickly, so maybe Islam will manage to do the same... I don't want to give up hope yet.

2) As is typical, I see your point; your examples from the Quran seem harsher, but I maintain that, although the New Testament was head and shoulders above the old, it was not exempt from suggesting violence towards non-believers or those who broke God's law... Just another reason I maintain hope!

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15), Lev 20:9 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9), Dt 21:18-21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18)) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/15.html#4)

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex 21:15 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15), Lev 20:9 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9), Dt 21:18-21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18)) 7:9-10 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/7.html#9)

Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/18.html#18) refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/3.html#23)

Hebrews: Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

God saved Rahab because she believed. (He killed all the non-believers in Jericho.) (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/heb/10.html#28)11:31 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/heb/11.html#31)

3) Again, at a personal level I agree completely... a complete misuse of spirituality if you ask me...

4) I can't argue with the statistics... Unless you count US foreign policy as a Christian force... then the death count goes to us...

5) Still can't argue...

6) Is this actually Quranic law, or just a practice that has developed since?

7) Certainly not going to argue with that... Could not agree more...

8) I do the same thing (copy and paste)... and I had the same problem with the bold yesterday, but when I edited it, it let me change it...

Carlos
26-03-16, 19:14
I can't tell whether this is correct or not, I don't know the details.
I can only say, the Belgian juridical power is very arrogant. It claims to know everything and does not allow criticism.
In their mind, that is how it should be.
I guess it is the same in other countries.



Total de asesinatos de ETA
según el estatus de las víctimas1 (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_cometidos_por_ETA_desde_la_muerte _de_Francisco_Franco#cite_note-casualities_eta_829-1)


Estatus



Civiles
343


Miembros de fuerzas armadas
o cuerpos policiales
486


De los cuales:


Guardia Civil (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Civil)
203


Policía Nacional (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuerpo_Nacional_de_Polic%C3%ADa_(Espa%C3%B1a))
146


Fuerzas Armadas Españolas (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerzas_Armadas_Espa%C3%B1olas)
98


Policía local (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polic%C3%ADa_local_de_Espa%C3%B1a)
24


Ertzaintza (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ertzaintza)
13


Mozos de Escuadra (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozos_de_Escuadra)
1


Gendarmería Nacional (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmer%C3%ADa_Nacional_(Francia))
1


Total


829 personas asesinadas



https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Asesinatos_cometidos_por_ETA_desde_la_muerte _de_Francisco_Franco

829 people killed by the terrorist group E.T.A. in Spain.

Maleth
26-03-16, 19:28
1) Fair enough, but as you pointed out before Christianity transformed pretty quickly, so maybe Islam will manage to do the same... I don't want to give up hope yet.

I do believe that, as more and more people will share more and more information and knowledge, I believe it will be a process that cannot be stopped. The vast majority of Muslim people as I stated before are normal people who only want normal things out of life. But there are certain environments that can nurture a criminal behavior more then others. This does not relate only to Religion but other non religious terror organizations around the world. I dont think that anyone has had the magic formula of how these environments can be totally elimnated, but I am sure there are many factors that contribute to this kind of behavior.....including a genetic disposition that can be found in any society.


2) As is typical, I see your point; your examples from the Quran seem harsher, but I maintain that, although the New Testament was head and shoulders above the old, it was not exempt from suggesting violence towards non-believers or those who broke God's law... Just another reason I maintain hope!

As i mentioned before it (old testament) was quoted by popes during the crusades to guarantee a seat in heaven. Muslims have similar promises of rewards after death.


Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See
Ex 21:15 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15), Lev 20:9 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9), Dt 21:18-21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18)) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/15.html#4)

This is totally incorrect. In a historical and political scenario it is very obvious that Jesus was questioning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was asking if you go so much by the book (to the tee) so why are you not killing the children who rebel against their parents as you are instructed to do according to the law. This to the contrary show how against Jesus was of such practices and not encouraging it.

The verse beneath confirms what I am stating.

John 8:44 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-43.htm)"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-44.htm)"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-45.htm)"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…



Peter claims that Dt 18:18-19 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/18.html#18) refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/acts/3.html#23)

Please give link as i have made a search and could not find such texts. I am not aware that there is any such texts. Am I right to say you are referring to the old testament (Torah)? We already pointed out the differences. The New testament refers as punishment going to hell or being judged at the end of the world. It never incites killing while still on earth. Unlike the Quran does.


(http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/heb/10.html#28)


6) Is this actually Quranic law, or just a practice that has developed since?

Clearly stated in the Quran (also inspired from certain versus in the Jewish Torah)

Quran (4:11) (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176 (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#176)).

Carlos
26-03-16, 19:36
Belgium and was a sanctuary for E.T.A members in the past

It was the first country to extradite ETA, but refused to do so between 1984 and 2005.

03/25/2016 - 05:00 H.
The attacks this week have highlighted the ease with which the jihadists have been operating in Belgium, especially in its capital. However, not only Islam, but violent organizations around the world have been present in this country, starting with ETA. Although Belgium was the first country to deport about ETA claimed by Spain in 1984 even before France-, the situation would soon change.
Brussels is one of the world capitals of arms trafficking, so many armed movements maintained representatives there, where also was relatively safe to make contact with like-minded organizations (ETA did, at least, with the IRA and mayflies Cells Communist Combat Belgian). The city was also considered the safest way to travel to training camps in South Yemen exit point, via Rome and Beirut, led by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), which were trained a dozen ETA members.




Read more: Bombings in Brussels: Belgium and was a sanctuary for ETA members in the past.

It is believed that Belgian banks were also used by the organization to receive transactions, such as $ 900,000 allegedly sent by Libya to ETA in 1985 through Bruxelles Lambert Bank. But above all, the militants benefited from the reluctance of a Belgian judiciary who refused to authorize the extradition to Spain of those ETA members arrested in Belgium. For example, in 1982 Juan José Arrese and Fernando Bilbao avoided 'in extremis' deportation after being arrested by Belgian police when a judge granted them a residence permit.

The following year, Joseba Artetxe 'Txistu' and Salvador Corral Ormazábal 'Yosu', were intercepted by Belgian agents when carrying a cargo of ammunition in a car. This time there was no doubt: both were sent to Spain (which would eventually acquitted by the High Court). But in retaliation, ETA placed a bomb-pm at the Palace of Justice in Antwerp, which caused no casualties.

Since that year no longer any extradition occur until 2005, when the Belgian Supreme Court granted Diego Ugarte Lopez de Arkaute and Jon Lopez Gomez, considered responsible for the murder of socialist Fernando Buesa and his bodyguard. To this followed, in 2010, Luis Maria Zengotitabengoa, accused of having rented a van loaded with explosives that the Civil Guard intercepted in Zamora and in 2011 the Ventura Tomé, a "historic" 80s But those intervening two decades previous, Belgium served as an "alternative base" for those who had problems of residence in France, a flow that accelerated after the government of François Mitterrand accept start collaborating with Felipe González on terrorism.

Accusations of torture
The most famous case was that of Raquel Garcia and Jose Luis Moreno, suspected collaborators of Vizcaya command. arrested in the town of Vilvoorde in 1993. Shortly thereafter, a Belgian judge took into consideration the allegations that incriminating statements against them, based on the testimony of ETA member Juan Ramon Rojo, had been achieved "through ill-treatment". Three years later, the Belgian government halted the extradition, and both were released.
The same happened in 1996 with the alleged ETA member Enrique Fagoagas, 'Peixotin', arrested on arrival in Belgium from Venezuela carrying a false passport. Although he was not granted political asylum, shortly after he was released and allowed to obtain a residence permit. The State Council also ordered in 1998 to suspend the expulsion of Ricardo Cruz Maiztegui to Mexico, authorized by the Belgian Government.

The tension between the different Belgian institutions for the presence of ETA members in the country is one of the reasons why achieving extradition from Belgium has been often much more complicated than from other European states. The judiciary seems especially sensitive to allegations of torture against the Spanish authorities, such as those made by lawyer Paul Bekaert: even as recently as 2011, this could prevent Natividad Jauregui, an alleged member of the Comando Vizcaya and suspicious of at least six attacks, who lived quietly until his arrest in Ghent, could be deported to Spain.

At that time, Bekaert claims that, after 32 years, had been the "reasonable time" in which it was reasonable to consider extradition. And less, he said, to our country, "a democracy except for Basque prisoners, tortured, special laws or incorrect prison policy concerns." The argument convinced the Ghent Court trying the case, which ruled in favor of ETA, ensuring that there were "grounds to suspect that Natividad Jáuregui could suffer a violation of their human rights in Spain".

In 2015, the program of Four "A New Time" could even locate Jauregui living in Ghent under the false name of Jaione, although the former ETA militant declined to speak with reporters. Cases like this, however, are the exception, and today Belgium can no longer be considered an 'alternative sanctuary' for ETA members, as it was once.

http://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2016-03-25/belgica-ya-fue-un-santuario-para-los-etarras-en-el-pasado_1173928/

7657
Natividad Jáuregui terrorist shot in the neck under a false Facebook account unpunished enjoying a seafood platter in Gante.

Maleth
26-03-16, 19:38
@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.

I agree, very much my perception too. On the other hand however I feel we need to be careful not to demonize all Muslims as its so easy to do so at present. Very often its Muslims themselves who are suffering the most and they are the ones who are also fighting radicalism on many fronts. These were normal Muslim people just want to have some fun.... :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/25/middleeast/iraq-violence/

bicicleur
26-03-16, 19:43
Just read the following this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attacks-police.html?_r=0

Between what is highlighted in the article and reports about laws saying you can't raid private homes at night, it's a wonder there haven't been more large scale attacks.

Obviously, I'm not clued in to how things work in some European countries. Why, precisely, were the two resignations not accepted? The one official, Green, deserves to get sacked for trying to weasel out of responsibility, if for no other reasons. The only statement that is adequate in these circumstances is, "I accept full responsibility". Who does he think is responsible for the lack of training, sense of urgency, etc. of the people under his command? Like I said, "Weasel".

@Maleth,
I don't have much personal experience with North Africans, but my father spent almost five years in Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco. He had nothing but good things to say about them on a personal level, especially the Libyans and Tunisians. However, he did say a lot of them were religion mad. Any ideology, whether religious or political, or both in the present case can so brainwash people with certain personality traits that they lose any critical judgment and eventually their very humanity. I don't see how this is any different from what the Nazis or Stalinists or what some people in the Balkans did.

It seems to me that what is going on is that a good number of the young men going to Syria and then returning to commit these acts are criminals, with all that says about their alienation, lack of internalization of social mores, etc. They are ripe for indoctrination into a violent cult, and they're already pretty far along in terms of contacts, weapons use etc. It's not a good scenario.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes.
In Belgium it is very rare that a politician resigns out of his own initiative.
Normally it is when he does not get support from his own political party any more.
And that happens when something fishy appears to the public and the party then offers one of its minsiters in the hope the rest of the party is purified by that.
Jan Jambon would have first offered his resignation, maybe to force Koen Geens to do the same, both don't belong to the same party.

Anyway the discussion is not over yet. A parliamentary enquiry commision will investigate what went wrong, starting tuesday.
A lot more political profiling from opposition parties will start now.
In the mean time the police union expressed their anger against Jan Jambon because he would have pointed at a negligent officer.
Games and theater assured, but not very amusing.

Angela
26-03-16, 20:23
I don't know what happened behind the scenes.
In Belgium it is very rare that a politician resigns out of his own initiative.
Normally it is when he does not get support from his own political party any more.
And that happens when something fishy appears to the public and the party then offers one of its minsiters in the hope the rest of the party is purified by that.
Jan Jambon would have first offered his resignation, maybe to force Koen Geens to do the same, both don't belong to the same party.

Anyway the discussion is not over yet. A parliamentary enquiry commision will investigate what went wrong, starting tuesday.
A lot more political profiling from opposition parties will start now.
In the mean time the police union expressed their anger against Jan Jambon because he would have pointed at a negligent officer.
Games and theater assured, but not very amusing.

No, it's not amusing at all. I'm more sorry than I can say that your country is going through this. I don't often speak of it, but 9/11 was a very traumatic time for me, not only as an adopted New Yorker, but on a personal level, as I lost a lot of friends that day. Even the ones who survived it were unalterably changed. The effects go on for years, for their families, friends, for the whole community.

Sometimes I wish I were still a praying person; maybe that would help.

mr_y82
26-03-16, 21:07
Angela, you are indeed correct... It is so tragic, the number of deaths, and collateral deaths (including emergency personnel, who were irreparably harmed by the toxic dust and gas after the collapses and have died since) caused by those attacks... I still believe US foreign policy could have done much to avoid the attack, but that doesn't make me any less sorry for all the innocent lives that were lost and irreparably harmed... I want to understand why it happened (beyond typical rhetoric) so that we actually stand a chance of preventing such events... As Maleth (or someone) stated earlier having a conversation with people is a good place to start... but if you bomb their homeland first they might not approach the conversation with open ears...

My father was born in the county where the 4th plane crashed (in rural SW Pennsylvania) after it was hijacked from the hijackers... I was grateful for their prevention of further intended destruction. I wish your friend could have been spared by similar actions, but I know that is no kind of solace...



1)"Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

This is totally incorrect. In a historical and political scenario it is very obvious that Jesus was questioning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was asking if you go so much by the book (to the tee) so why are you not killing the children who rebel against their parents as you are instructed to do according to the law. This to the contrary show how against Jesus was of such practices and not encouraging it.

The verse beneath confirms what I am stating.

John 8:44 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-43.htm)"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-44.htm)"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.45 (http://biblehub.com/john/8-45.htm)"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…



[COLOR=#FF0000]2)Please give link as i have made a search and could not find such texts. I am not aware that there is any such texts. Am I right to say you are referring to the old testament (Torah)? We already pointed out the differences. The New testament refers as punishment going to hell or being judged at the end of the world. It never incites killing while still on earth. Unlike the Quran does.


3)Clearly stated in the Quran (also inspired from certain versus in the Jewish Torah)

Quran (4:11) (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#11)[FONT=Calibri] - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176 (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/noble/sura4.html#176)).

1) Upon rereading that quote I am embarrassed that, in quick skimming, the meaning totally evaded me... in my native tongue no less... scratch that "example" for sure! :ashamed2:

2) I'm no Biblical Scholar, but I got those passages from a site that claims to be New Testament allusions or references of violence (link I posted before: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html), some of which were based in the Old Testament, but reiterated by Jesus or his followers... The one you specifically asked about is from Acts 3:23 "And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+3%3A23&version=ESV (this site gives cross references to the Old Testament inspiration, http://biblehub.com/acts/3-23.htm)

Anyway, I'm basically just playing the Devil's Advocate at this point... Seeing as my original statement was that the New Testament was about egalitarian peace loving hippies, even if I was right, I sabotaged my own point... In trying to present the Quran as peaceful, I have actually managed to bring the New Testament into question instead... I clearly don't know enough about any religious scripture to keep espousing a point of view... especially if I am incapable of reading and interpreting the scripture accurately... Had I had carefully read the previous passage we discussed, I never should have missed Jesus' intended meaning... And, if I can't be careful, I should be wary of chiming in on a forum of informed intelligent people... :ashamed2:

3) I probably could have googled that, but why pass up an opportunity for you to prove me wrong again... publicly? :grin:
Back to the "picking and choosing" to support a given purpose, here is what I was referring to in terms of male/female equality:
http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/women/equality.html (discusses the idea I suggested about preexisting culture being the main basis for the subjugation of women...)
http://www.mwlusa.org/topics/equality/gender.html
I won't bother to include any specific passages in my post, as you may just prove me wrong again and I will continue to become increasingly confused, haha.


I agree, very much my perception too. On the other hand however I feel we need to be careful not to demonize all Muslims as its so easy to do so at present. Very often its Muslims themselves who are suffering the most and they are the ones who are also fighting radicalism on many fronts. These were normal Muslim people just want to have some fun.... :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/25/middleeast/iraq-violence/

Well said... Muslims are, by far, the most numerous victims of extremist Islam... I wish that majority, of well adjusted peaceful followers, could or would overwhelm the extremists, and bring this era of extremism to a close... I sometimes wonder how this has not already occurred, but I yield to you guys to explain how that has not already become a viable option...?

edit: I am under the impression Shi'a Muslims are typically less violent than Sunni counterparts... Am I mistaken in that?
"Shi'a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a) communities preach on Islamic unity as well as inter-faith dialogue despite being persecuted historically.(See Persecution of Shia Muslims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Shia_Muslims)) As of September 2014, mainly Shi'a activists continue to lead peaceful protests throughout Bahrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain) demanding the overthrow of the royal family (whom they accuse of practising Apartheid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid) against the Shi'a majority) and in place implementation of a democracy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_in_Islam

bicicleur
26-03-16, 22:22
No, it's not amusing at all. I'm more sorry than I can say that your country is going through this. I don't often speak of it, but 9/11 was a very traumatic time for me, not only as an adopted New Yorker, but on a personal level, as I lost a lot of friends that day. Even the ones who survived it were unalterably changed. The effects go on for years, for their families, friends, for the whole community.

Sometimes I wish I were still a praying person; maybe that would help.

none of my family or friends was affected
compared to 9/11 it was a small scale attack
after the Paris attack everybody expected something like this to happen
still, it's a wake up call
and we expect more to come

I heared today there has been an attack on Mosul university I don't know when, sometime ago.
200 students were killed by ISIS
It even didn't get the news here at the time

what happened in Brussels shouldn't have been a wake up call

I'm sure on 9/11 many people in Molenbeek were chearing while watching on TV in their rooms what had happened
After Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris early 2015 this was discussed in classes, many Muslim children said it was right to kill them, because they had insulted Islam. Some children who didn't agree were beaten up after class.
What more did Belgium need to wake up?
We've been instructed far to long, not to criticise and have respect for their 'culture'.

Thanks for your sympathy and concern.
But I've been angry myself for the stupidity and naivity that has reigned here for so long.
And it is not the fault of the present government, mentality was already changing.
It's the fault of the governments we've had (and was chosen) the last 4 decades.
Those governments ended up claiming everyone voting for the oposition were racist.
The Walloon socialsits who lost last elections and were out of the federal government since decades out of frustration accused some of the new ministers in parliament of racism and nazi sympathy.

Carlos
26-03-16, 22:35
http://www.larazon.es/internacional/schulz-propone-destinar-fondos-europeos-a-la-integracion-de-musulmanes-FG12270612?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#.Ttt1q0RSZOukGKV

Schulz proposes allocating EU funds to the integration of Muslims

Euro Foolish (Eurotonto) What else has to happen in Europe? Not in my name, integration is impossible, countries want to share until they are large enough in number to ... It's another world, another world, another world, copy 1000 times on the blackboard.

mr_y82
26-03-16, 23:32
^I understand your frustration, but hardline approaches may be counter productive (I was inclined to say "close-minded," but I prefer to assume you are not)... Explain a plan that will work, which assumes that integration is not possible... (without using conservative US rhetoric that involves turning the sand to glass...).

Linked from a story someone posted earlier, an example of a Muslim who also tragically died in the attack... Integration with radicals may not be possible; I grant you that, but I'd say those with the mentality expressed here certainly can:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attack-victims-loubna-lafquiri.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-2&action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

Salud!

bicicleur
27-03-16, 00:05
^I understand your frustration, but hardline approaches may be counter productive (I was inclined to say "close-minded," but I prefer to assume you are not)... Explain a plan that will work, which assumes that integration is not possible... (without using conservative US rhetoric that involves turning the sand to glass...).

Linked from a story someone posted earlier, an example of a Muslim who also tragically died in the attack... Integration with radicals may not be possible; I grant you that, but I'd say those with the mentality expressed here certainly can:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/world/europe/brussels-attack-victims-loubna-lafquiri.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-2&action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

Salud!

The Walloon socialist mayor of Molenbeek Philippe Moureaux refused to use his own police force to fight criminality in Molenbeek, these people started to feel themselves above the law.
It was his voting public.
Most Belgian jihadi have a criminal record (for crimes commited outside of Molenbeek).

Jan Jambon proposed to send the federal police to search every house in Molenbeek, but Walloon socialists said it would be 'stigmatising'.
It appears actualy it is not possible because it would require enourmous manpower.

The main effort for integration should come from the Muslims themselves. If we don't demand their own effort for integration from them, funding will become a bottomless pit.
I can assure you there has been made a lot of government efforts for integration in these areas.
Better use the funds to detect and fight the criminals in these areas. That would be the right signal to give.

His proposal will look good in the press but I have the impression Schultz doesn't know what he's talking about.

mr_y82
27-03-16, 01:15
^thanks bicicleur, I was not meaning to chime in on how funding is divided, just that having the attitude that integration is impossible is not helpful. I agree people have to choose to be integrated... Many "Germanic Americans" were neutral during the American Revolution because they had not yet assimilated even though they had been here, in some cases, for generations... Some people probably thought they would never assimilate, but here I am, writing in crude rudimentary English (self-depraving humor)... This is just one of hundreds of examples and I just don't think there is much hope if people adopt the attitude that we can't evolve as a society.

I appreciate the clarification on things I know very little about. Sante!?

bicicleur
27-03-16, 11:09
the Muslim community in Belgium decided it was not appropriated to pray for the victims of the attack in the mosques last friday, 'because not all victims were Muslims'
'it is not appropriate to pray for non-believers'
nor did they find it appropriate to commemorate the victims with a minute of silence

http://www.lacapitale.be/1522136/article/2016-03-24/attentats-de-bruxelles-le-conseil-des-theologiens-refuse-de-reciter-une-priere-d

it shows how 'moderate' Muslims think and how connected Muslims in Belgium feel with their host country

mr_y82
27-03-16, 15:12
^that's pretty low... the climate here seems a bit different to me, maybe due to our history of immigration and distance from the "front lines"...

Carlos
27-03-16, 18:27
The cowardice of the Belgian authorities once again gives reason to writer
Arturo Perez-Reverte: "That is to be consistent, Brussels suspended the 'March Against Fear' for fear"

http://www.periodistadigital.com/periodismo/internet/2016/03/27/arturo-perez-reverte-eso-es-ser-consecuente-bruselas-suspende-la-marcha-contra-el-miedo-por-miedo.shtml

jihadists must be scared shitless by the flowers, the candles and our strong 'we are all Brussels'

Ignacio Camacho on the attacks in Brussels: "This is the company that best mourns victims not defend"

Tweets Perez-Reverte have been directed, for example, cowardice demonstrated in the capital of Belgium and, by extension, of the European Union to suspend a baptized manifestation of form rimbombate as 'The March Against Fear', for fear the reaction of Islamic fanatics.


Sunday March 27, 2016, had called for a propular rally against jihadist murderers and the moment of truth, incompetent responsible for the public's been sheathed, shrivel before the murderers of Allah and cancel the actosl, citing of security:

In another tweet, academia has resorted to something that has already pointed out on several occasions: that what is coming to Europe is what takes years happening outside and we did not want to see live in our own bubble ("We are not the ones who have failed to integration: Muslims have been ").

Arturo Perez-Reverte ✔ @perezreverte
As you hear a cello again, I'll shoot.

mr_y82
28-03-16, 16:42
Reading this certainly doesn't inspire hope:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/bible-quran-violence.aspx

At this point I am sure most of your heard of the attacks in Pakistan... so pointless and tragic...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Sympathy to all who are victimized by violence and extremism.

Yetos
28-03-16, 17:44
the time of mourning has past, time to think

After the human bomb at Pakistan
and the crussifiction of a Bishop at Yemen
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/27/isis-crucifies-catholic-priest-good-friday/



for 2 things I am certain :

1) NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS

but last 40 years, from Heathrow 1974 or even before
2) ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSMLIMS
and the last makes every Muslim suspicious

it is time the Islamic world, to react, and not wait from Eu USA and Russiia to exteminate warmheads,
strange isn't it?
ISIS was bombed by USA France Russia, but was it from Turkey, Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan?
Boco Haram terrorise Africa, but who cares, did you hear any muslim soldier to went there to support a strungle against that terror spread group?

PS
have I islamophobia? or via terror islamists win our demand for a free world?

mr_y82
29-03-16, 01:15
Things are understandably more strained in Europe... I just saw a video of a German mom portraying the gang beating of her son and failure by the police to react accordingly... Here in the US it is much more limited to verbal assaults, most of the time. I agree the Muslim world has to take a front seat in the fight against extremism...

If you have patience for cheesy American TV, or if you want a little peak into American culture (for better or worse) these clips show some organic interactions between people and illuminates how different the situation is here... There are some very prejudiced people, but the likelihood of violence on either side is low... and usually blown out of proportion by scared citizens and media... There's a Jewish woman who comforts a Muslim man, a Muslim woman who explains what it means to be an American Muslim (those 2 are the second video link)... Again this is silly American TV, but some of the reactions are still telling, and I hope will help you understand why I did not understand the climate in places like Belgium as much as I should have. I am trying to become more informed about the situation for Europe. I assumed there had been more assimilation to this point... I obviously need to stay more informed. I put the clips in the order I thought was most worth watching to least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbWmBUONtFY#t=416.875407 (clerk refusing to serve a Muslim... reactions vary from very prejudiced to admirable.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2JAzdLpBBs (American girl going to marry Muslim American man; the clips I mentioned above are in this video.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrbnnEZnMOU (I included this one mainly for boobs, joking aside mainly for the guy at 3:40 that talks about being an American and the prejudice he and friends have faced)

As you can see, our problems are minor... A few people here have pointed out, I think the difference has a lot to do with the immigrant basis for the entire US concept from the get go, and obviously the fact that refugees can't arrive here by the thousands on foot...

Carlos
29-03-16, 01:24
¡Sí Señora!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z760wI_89Y
https://www.facebook.com/anti.podemos/videos/942948265818909/?pnref=story



7661

Carlos
29-03-16, 01:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z760wI_89Y
¡Sí Señora!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z760wI_89Y
https://www.facebook.com/anti.podemos/videos/942948265818909/?pnref=story



7661

LeBrok
29-03-16, 04:35
Things are understandably more strained in Europe... I just saw a video of a German mom portraying the gang beating of her son and failure by the police to react accordingly... Here in the US it is much more limited to verbal assaults, most of the time. I agree the Muslim world has to take a front seat in the fight against extremism...

If you have patience for cheesy American TV, or if you want a little peak into American culture (for better or worse) these clips show some organic interactions between people and illuminates how different the situation is here... There are some very prejudiced people, but the likelihood of violence on either side is low... and usually blown out of proportion by scared citizens and media... There's a Jewish woman who comforts a Muslim man, a Muslim woman who explains what it means to be an American Muslim (those 2 are the second video link)... Again this is silly American TV, but some of the reactions are still telling, and I hope will help you understand why I did not understand the climate in places like Belgium as much as I should have. I am trying to become more informed about the situation for Europe. I assumed there had been more assimilation to this point... I obviously need to stay more informed. I put the clips in the order I thought was most worth watching to least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbWmBUONtFY#t=416.875407 (clerk refusing to serve a Muslim... reactions vary from very prejudiced to admirable.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2JAzdLpBBs (American girl going to marry Muslim American man; the clips I mentioned above are in this video.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrbnnEZnMOU (I included this one mainly for boobs, joking aside mainly for the guy at 3:40 that talks about being an American and the prejudice he and friends have faced)

As you can see, our problems are minor... A few people here have pointed out, I think the difference has a lot to do with the immigrant basis for the entire US concept from the get go, and obviously the fact that refugees can't arrive here by the thousands on foot...
Great examples of humanity, inclusiveness and tolerance. We can expect same reactions from bystanders here in Canada. Beautiful people, and I just don't mean this busty brunet ;). Things like these make me very happy.

bicicleur
29-03-16, 07:43
Things are understandably more strained in Europe... I just saw a video of a German mom portraying the gang beating of her son and failure by the police to react accordingly... Here in the US it is much more limited to verbal assaults, most of the time. I agree the Muslim world has to take a front seat in the fight against extremism...

If you have patience for cheesy American TV, or if you want a little peak into American culture (for better or worse) these clips show some organic interactions between people and illuminates how different the situation is here... There are some very prejudiced people, but the likelihood of violence on either side is low... and usually blown out of proportion by scared citizens and media... There's a Jewish woman who comforts a Muslim man, a Muslim woman who explains what it means to be an American Muslim (those 2 are the second video link)... Again this is silly American TV, but some of the reactions are still telling, and I hope will help you understand why I did not understand the climate in places like Belgium as much as I should have. I am trying to become more informed about the situation for Europe. I assumed there had been more assimilation to this point... I obviously need to stay more informed. I put the clips in the order I thought was most worth watching to least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbWmBUONtFY#t=416.875407 (clerk refusing to serve a Muslim... reactions vary from very prejudiced to admirable.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2JAzdLpBBs (American girl going to marry Muslim American man; the clips I mentioned above are in this video.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrbnnEZnMOU (I included this one mainly for boobs, joking aside mainly for the guy at 3:40 that talks about being an American and the prejudice he and friends have faced)

As you can see, our problems are minor... A few people here have pointed out, I think the difference has a lot to do with the immigrant basis for the entire US concept from the get go, and obviously the fact that refugees can't arrive here by the thousands on foot...

very cheesy sketches indeed compared to the real harrasments in European suburbs
combined with very cheesy European police forces

Carlos
29-03-16, 14:50
Terrorism has achieved one of its main purposes: the possibility of dying violently blown up by a bomb in the subway or shot at random on a terrace, has become for any of us in an occupational hazard of life. It must be accepted with certain stoicism: the jihadist barbarism found him turns to democracy. It's funny how the Western world has had enough collective intelligence to create the most refined of political and social systems and at the same time is able to deploy the necessary stupid for not knowing defend effectively. Admit it: we are victims of our own weakness and can perish by it. But in no way we are that we can admit up guilty, even remote, as claimed by some left. That one-eyed, sectarian, ignorant, a hemiplegic fanaticism, who believes that Islamic fundamentalism is the new term, global and radical, of the class struggle left.
(Ignacio Camacho)

LeBrok
29-03-16, 17:03
Terrorism has achieved one of its main purposes: the possibility of dying violently blown up by a bomb in the subway or shot at random on a terrace, has become for any of us in an occupational hazard of life. It must be accepted with certain stoicism: the jihadist barbarism found him turns to democracy. It's funny how the Western world has had enough collective intelligence to create the most refined of political and social systems and at the same time is able to deploy the necessary stupid for not knowing defend effectively. Admit it: we are victims of our own weakness and can perish by it. But in no way we are that we can admit up guilty, even remote, as claimed by some left. That one-eyed, sectarian, ignorant, a hemiplegic fanaticism, who believes that Islamic fundamentalism is the new term, global and radical, of the class struggle left.
(Ignacio Camacho) Carlos, you are the best example why terrorism works. The odds of being killed by a terrorist in Western World is much lower than being strike by a lightning, or even lower than winning 6/49 lottery (1 in 16 million). To equate it with work hazard is unbelievably naive and irresponsible. Another IS terrorist goal is to create hate between Christians or Europeans in general and all Muslims. Judging by behaviour of many Europeans, they are achieving their goal. To beat IS and their hateful ideology, the West should support and unite with ordinary Muslims against all the extremists, ether Saudi's mullas, IS or Nazi.

bicicleur
29-03-16, 19:02
Carlos, you are the best example why terrorism works. The odds of being killed by a terrorist in Western World is much lower than being strike by a lightning, or even lower than winning 6/49 lottery (1 in 16 million). To equate it with work hazard is unbelievably naive and irresponsible. Another IS terrorist goal is to create hate between Christians or Europeans in general and all Muslims. Judging by behaviour of many Europeans, they are achieving their goal. To beat IS and their hateful ideology, the West should support and unite with ordinary Muslims against all the extremists, ether Saudi's mullas, IS or Nazi.

the goal of the IS terorist is to end up in heaven with 49 virgins
and ordinary Muslims should join non-Muslims, not the other way around

mr_y82
29-03-16, 19:42
^"ordinary Muslims should join non-Muslims, not the other way around"

Seems fair enough. It's not really time to be on the sidelines, that's for sure!


It must be accepted with certain stoicism.

I can agree with this... It provides some insight into how many people around the world have had to live for a long time


Great examples of humanity, inclusiveness and tolerance. We can expect same reactions from bystanders here in Canada. Beautiful people, and I just don't mean this busty brunet ;). Things like these make me very happy.

In some ways it seems really unfair we are so secure in the US as I feel like our policies and actions have helped create negative consequences for everyone involved (other that ISIS, which we essentially helped to grow... but I think we can all agree it's still a negative consequence)... Now it seems Europe is suffering on behalf of us as well... I wish I understood the climate there better (anyone have suggested reading?), I thought the progressiveness and non intervention that has become more and more part of European foreign policy (compared to the US) would have made Europe LESS of a target, but that does not seem to be the case... I guess it's my fault for thinking some terrorist leaders might have some inkling of rationality floating around somewhere in there... And LeBrok, haha to the comment about the brunette... I would have helped her with that tire either way I (and in the first scenerio by wife would probably have given me some really nasty looks!)! lol

bicicleur
29-03-16, 20:01
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/after-asad-shahs-religiously-prejudiced-death-we-know-inter-muslim-hatred-is-a-problem-in-britain-a6955146.html

a British Pakistani Muslim shopkeeper wished a Happy Easter to his Christian customers
he was stabbed to death
a racist motif was suspected
now it looks like he was killed by a Sunni Pakistani Muslim because the shopkeeper belongs to the wrong sect
the murderer has been applauded by other Sunni Pakistani Muslims

persecution inside Pakistan is exported to Britain
it should be the other way
the west shouldn't allow persecution of minorities in Pakistan and the like

just 2 days ago there was the Lahore attack by the Taliban, almost twice as much victims as in Brussels, but nobody reacts to that

https://www.rt.com/news/337383-reactions-brussels-lahore-attacks/

Yetos
29-03-16, 20:43
Carlos, you are the best example why terrorism works. The odds of being killed by a terrorist in Western World is much lower than being strike by a lightning, or even lower than winning 6/49 lottery (1 in 16 million). To equate it with work hazard is unbelievably naive and irresponsible. Another IS terrorist goal is to create hate between Christians or Europeans in general and all Muslims. Judging by behaviour of many Europeans, they are achieving their goal. To beat IS and their hateful ideology, the West should support and unite with ordinary Muslims against all the extremists, ether Saudi's mullas, IS or Nazi.

it is not the odds that kill our civilization,
it is where terror strikes, and why.

and from WW2 till 80's we had economical class and believes terror, or liberty terror inside the enemy,
BUT WHAT TERROR WE HAVE TODAY?

from Heathrow till 90's a good percentage was religious terror,
from 90's till today
ALL TERORISTS ARE MUSLIM
AND TERROR IS USED TO CAUSE FEAR AT THE ENEMY, AND THE STRIKES SHOW THE ENEMY IS,

and to make my shelf clear,
I DON"T BELIEVE THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS,
BUT ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS,

AND THAT IS THE DILEMA THAT THIS SITUATION CAUSES US, AND DIFUSE WESTERN WORLD LOGICAL THINKING, creates a fog and the exit is to panic, or fear,
and due to that dilema, we can not think and react correct, as societies and civilizations, to protect our freedom agaist religious fasism.

and I do not see Saudis or Turkey bomb DAESH,
Neither BOCO HARAM, but EU USA and Russia,
so I wonder what is going on here?


PS
HOW CAN I LIVE WHEN AFRAID TO USE METRO FOR MY WORK?
AIRPORT AND TRAIN STATIONS FOR MY TRAVEL,
AND FEAR TO CELEBRATE OR HAVE FUN AT A STADIUM?

mr_y82
29-03-16, 21:07
^ It is scary, but statistically the threat is small... I know that is hardly a comfort, but it is a reality... Does that mean we should ignore the problem...? NO!!! (we accept the threat of shark attack and lightening strikes because we don't have the technology to stop them, or it would be ecologically unsound to attempt to, but this is a threat we should actually be able to, and should, do something about)... How we do that exactly? I am not qualified to say (but I might try anyway)...



just 2 days ago there was the Lahore attack by the Taliban, almost twice as much victims as in Brussels, but nobody reacts to that

https://www.rt.com/news/337383-reactions-brussels-lahore-attacks/

Well, if by nobody you mean politicians, media, celebs, etc... as stated by the article... A least a couple of us did mention it here... It's truly tragic, and those responsible should be crushed like the heathen they are... I have no sympathy or patience for senseless violence, but quashing extremism of any kind (that condones and promotes violence in the name of purity or progress) should be on the minds of all Westerners, as well as Muslims who want to help stop the stereotypes, prejudice, and fear that stems from the radicals... They have to disown and disavowal what is happening in a strong and unified way... The majority of level-headed Muslims should start a stronger physical movement against this nonsense and petition the West for help in the struggle...

I'm probably as naive as ever....

Angela
29-03-16, 21:36
America needs a crash course in Realpolitik, in my opinion. Europe may have already gotten one.

I'm tired of the West, and particularly the U.S., being blamed for the fact that Muslim societies are, by and large, dysfunctional, and have been for the last couple of hundred years.

At some point, people are responsible for their own destinies.

The biggest single cause of Islamist terrorism is the Wahabism exported by Saudi Arabia and funded by oil dollars, and imams who sell their people victimhood. What are we supposed to do about that? Well, attacking Saudi Arabia or being too aggressive is out of the question, because until very recently if they turned off the oil spigot, the economy of Europe would have crashed, and still might, and ours would have followed. That threat might be lessened if Europe wasn't so dependent on foreign sources for energy, but who is doing anything about that?

We tried troops followed by nation building, because democracies don't go on wars of extermination by and large. Were mistakes made in dealing with the Middle East? Absolutely, but if anything the mistake was in giving them more credit than they deserved. The vast majority of Iraqis and Afghans were far more interested in stealing whatever wasn't locked down, including aid money for women and children, making multiple and contradictory back stabbing deals with anyone in sight, and settling old tribal scores, than in building a new society. We might still have avoided the current chaos of genocide and mass, uncontrolled migration into Europe if it weren't for our "leading from behind" President who is more interested in fulfilling old campaign promises than in dealing with realities on the ground. We've had tens of thousands of troops stationed along the DMZ between North and South Korea since the early 1950s, but we couldn't have done the same in the Middle East? Don't get me started. So, a totally hands off approach hasn't worked either.

No one needs to tell me that there aren't a lot of good options, but sitting on our hands isn't cutting it, nor is the appeasement and abasement that Europe has been practicing, partly because of its nonsensical ultra "progressive" policies and partly out of self interest because of oil and trade. When you sup with the devil the old saying goes, you have to have a very long spoon. It may be that you shouldn't sup with him at all.

We may not be able to directly control Saudi Arabia, but we don't have to let foreign Imams preach jihad within our own borders, and we don't have to let Wahabi schools indoctrinate children either. Nor should any western society have to accept enclaves in its borders that hold to their own laws, and where the laws of the host country aren't enforced. Nor, if Europe wants to stem this tidal wave of often uneducated, sometimes radicalized Muslim young men from flowing into Europe can it think it can just sit back and let the Middle East descend into barbarism.

This is total madness.

Ed. Oh, and for goodness sakes, Europeans need to totally retrain their police and security forces in general. I haven't wanted to rub salt in the wounds, but this is like the Keystone Cops. If the FBI can't do it, get people from the NYPD, or private contractors...get somebody, and get them quick.

bicicleur
29-03-16, 21:57
indeed there are few good options, but just let things come is the worst

we should break some taboos, and chose our priorities instead
some exceptional measures should be taken to fight the terrorism, not only in our home country but also abroad

if we don't break taboos and chose priorities someone will do it for us
just a year ago, there was no question for the west, Assad had to go
now we realise there is not a safe alternative at hand

we have to start cooking and sometimes an egg will be broken

mr_y82
29-03-16, 22:05
And sometimes many eggs!


America needs a crash course in Realpolitik, in my opinion. Europe may have already gotten one.

I'm tired of the West, and particularly the U.S., being blamed for the fact that Muslim societies are, by and large, dysfunctional, and have been for the last couple of hundred years.

At some point, people are responsible for their own destinies.

The biggest single cause of Islamist terrorism is the Wahabism exported by Saudi Arabia and funded by oil dollars, and imams who sell their people victimhood. What are we supposed to do about that? Well, attacking Saudi Arabia or being too aggressive is out of the question, because until very recently if they turned off the oil spigot, the economy of Europe would have crashed, and still might, and ours would have followed. That threat might be lessened if Europe wasn't so dependent on foreign sources for energy, but who is doing anything about that?

We tried troops followed by nation building, because democracies don't go on wars of extermination by and large. Were mistakes made in dealing with the Middle East? Absolutely, but if anything the mistake was in giving them more credit than they deserved. The vast majority of Iraqis and Afghans were far more interested in stealing whatever wasn't locked down, including aid money for women and children, making multiple and contradictory back stabbing deals with anyone in sight, and settling old tribal scores, than in building a new society. We might still have avoided the current chaos of genocide and mass, uncontrolled migration into Europe if it weren't for our "leading from behind" President who is more interested in fulfilling old campaign promises than in dealing with realities on the ground. We've had tens of thousands of troops stationed along the DMZ between North and South Korea since the early 1950s, but we couldn't have done the same in the Middle East? Don't get me started. So, a totally hands off approach hasn't worked either.

No one needs to tell me that there aren't a lot of good options, but sitting on our hands isn't cutting it, nor is the appeasement and abasement that Europe has been practicing, partly because of its nonsensical ultra "progressive" policies and partly out of self interest because of oil and trade. When you sup with the devil the old saying goes, you have to have a very long spoon. It may be that you shouldn't sup with him at all.

We may not be able to directly control Saudi Arabia, but we don't have to let foreign Imams preach jihad within our own borders, and we don't have to let Wahabi schools indoctrinate children either. Nor should any western society have to accept enclaves in its borders that hold to their own laws, and where the laws of the host country aren't enforced. Nor, if Europe wants to stem this tidal wave of often uneducated, sometimes radicalized Muslim young men from flowing into Europe can it think it can just sit back and let the Middle East descend into barbarism.

This is total madness.

Ed. Oh, and for goodness sakes, Europeans need to totally retrain their police and security forces in general. I haven't wanted to rub salt in the wounds, but this is like the Keystone Cops. If the FBI can't do it, get people from the NYPD, or private contractors...get somebody, and get them quick.

You come across as so rational that it would be hard to argue against you (but see if that stops me from chiming in! :))... I agree with almost all of this.

I don't really think the period of "hands off" has been tried, at least not by the US (but I agree 100% that appeasement is not the answer)... Our drones are ever active, not to mention "advisors," "peace-keeping forces," etc... But there is a difference between hands-off and appeasement, even if subtle...

In my mind hands-off implies no political, economic, and military intervention, but this was pretty much a non-option given the long history of tension... However, before the era of increased terrorism, maybe we could have relied on domestic (US), Norwegian, South American, heck even Russian oil ;) sorry Ruskies!... AND BUILT THORIUM REACTORS (why has this not caught on? can some scientist please set me straight... I know you could not weaponize it, so we ended the research, but you can make energy so incredibly efficiently from what I have read and seen... And it's not a dangerous process like modern nuclear power... taking this on the word of people much smarter than me!)... If we had truly stopped the Imperialism of the 20th century US we could have seen if hands-off was even possible... As long as we rely on them economically, there is always a conflict of interest concern...

Appeasement implies that you are being wronged, or overlooking some territorial advance (like Hitler... I don't think we need remind Europeans of this!) and you keep giving something up to prevent open conflict. Appeasement has a bad (albeit earned and well deserved) reputation for not working... If we had truly been hands-off, and the various attacks still persisted, we would have been justified in reacting accordingly (before my political awakening prior to the 2000 election, I thought I would go into the military)... Here's the problem... given the US' past, everything we do, whether well intended or not, is currently tainted with that imperial past... To deny that serves neither the West nor the Middle East, and the dirty history sheds light on the complexity of the issue as well... There is a very real source of distrust on both sides... I just want the quickest and least bloody path to a better more peaceful world while we still have a snowball's chance in hell of saving our species... I think ALL of us here agree on that front, and if it was an easy fix we'd all share the same opinion or the problem would already have been solved...

I AM NOT PROPOSING APPEASEMENT, FOR THE ATTACKS TAKING PLACE, JUST IN CASE I WAS NOT CLEAR... I think it is clear that doing nothing is not the solution... No one accused me as such, this is preemptive (like George W. Bush's war... :P)

If everyone would just watch some Carl Sagan and chill the f--k out we could start having a serious global conversation!

Carlos
29-03-16, 22:54
Carlos, you are the best example why terrorism works. The odds of being killed by a terrorist in Western World is much lower than being strike by a lightning, or even lower than winning 6/49 lottery (1 in 16 million). To equate it with work hazard is unbelievably naive and irresponsible. Another IS terrorist goal is to create hate between Christians or Europeans in general and all Muslims. Judging by behaviour of many Europeans, they are achieving their goal. To beat IS and their hateful ideology, the West should support and unite with ordinary Muslims against all the extremists, ether Saudi's mullas, IS or Nazi.
This just started, not so confident, he believes not know the plans of the countries' rich Europe "are intended to deliver Spain to calm the beast and gain time. If Europe betrays Spain and surrender to Islam provoke World War III. Dead before our country in the hands of the Beast.


Why not moderate Islamists chivaron that the terrorist was in the Belgian Quarter, he believes not know? that performance of silence is the purest style mobster and kills innocent Europeans, ordinary people, the people.


The Spanish authorities and Spanish intelligence services are prevented at the betrayal of Europe. Spain never Muslim.

LeBrok
30-03-16, 02:12
the goal of the IS terorist is to end up in heaven with 49 virginsThat's plan B. Main goal is the Caliphate and the last biblical battle, the Armageddon.

and ordinary Muslims should join non-Muslims, not the other way around And how is this different from West helping them anytime there is a need? Came to US and Canada to see how it works. Again, it is not my fault that Belgium got lots of crappy immigrants, with crappy Muslims. Learn from us how to do it right.

LeBrok
30-03-16, 02:29
^"ordinary Muslims should join non-Muslims, not the other way around"

Seems fair enough. It's not really time to be on the sidelines, that's for sure!



I can agree with this... It provides some insight into how many people around the world have had to live for a long time



In some ways it seems really unfair we are so secure in the US as I feel like our policies and actions have helped create negative consequences for everyone involved (other that ISIS, which we essentially helped to grow... but I think we can all agree it's still a negative consequence)... Now it seems Europe is suffering on behalf of us as well... I wish I understood the climate there better (anyone have suggested reading?)I don't think it had much to do what America did, but it is more about what we stand. The rise of Islamic extremism was slow and steady for last 100 years, or perhaps longer. To get some details I would need to do some reading too. Sure, Americans can reach within and ask "what did they do to offend Islamists and being attacked", but I'm sure Shia muslims ask the same, and Russians and French, and all the Europe, and all Hindu Indians, or normal Muslims, and Yazidi Christians, etc. US leads the free world, is the strongest power in the world, and reaches in almost every corner of the world. As such is viewed as the force to reckon with during Armageddon. America can try to avoid IS and other extremists, but i'm sure they will find her. America, the Satan, is to be killed to fulfill the holy book, the end of world prophecy.

mr_y82
30-03-16, 02:35
^yes, the Great Satan! Maybe I am too cynical in regards to my government... as you may read about, in my posts, in the Celtic gay gene thread...

LeBrok
30-03-16, 02:57
^yes, the Great Satan! Maybe I am too cynical in regards to my government... as you may read about, in my posts, in the Celtic gay gene thread...
I didn't have time to expand the subject, so I only wrote the essential thoughts. Still in short however, I agree that America did bunch of mistakes and they backfire more than not. I just don't think that the biggest mess, Muslim radicals and terrorists have much to do with America or Europe doing but long and steady indoctrination with form of Nazi Islam. Hatred and annihilation of all non-believers.
We could dive in subject of postcolonial geopolitics in Near East and "smart" moves of two Bushes when time allows.

Carlos
30-03-16, 03:07
They have lost control over the neighborhood Molenbeek


23/03/2016 25
Analysis CNI members: the Belgian anti-terrorist intelligence has been a disaster
His agents have not developed a network of informants and are overwhelmed. They have spent months asking for help to Spain

Criticism from members of the antiterrorist intelligence to the role of the Belgian secret services in recent months. They believe that they have failed to effectively control communities to identify Islamic jihadists. "The situation in Molenbeek has gone out of hand" they explain.

Belgian intelligence is "supersaturated"
The Digital Confidential sources could contact the Spanish anti-terrorist intelligence services, who confirmed that Belgium took months "struggling to avoid an attack of this nature".


As they explain these voices, the Belgian intelligence service 'Organe de Coordination pour l'Analyse the Menace' (Coordinating Body for Threat Analysis) had already warned other countries-including services Spain- that its agents "do not They cope to control all suspected of receiving notices ".


The Belgian Government, explain these sources, took months for help to foreign intelligence services to try to prevent an attack. Among them, the Spanish experts jihadism.

They acknowledge privately that the situation "has gone out of hand," especially in the neighborhood of Molenbeek, where he was arrested Abdeslam hidden after four months and where much of the Muslim community living in the Belgian capital.
Hideouts with explosives in Brussels
For the moment, according to data that currently has the Spanish intelligence, it is unknown whether the attacks in Brussels are retaliation for the arrest of the leader of the suicide of Paris, Salah Abdeslam.
However, as long as this data from the Spanish intelligence, there is a suspicion that may have stockpiles of explosives and hidden weapons Molenbeek district, considered a "sanctuary" for terrorism. There is evidence that this is where would the jihadists hiding currently in the city.
According to these voices, Belgian intelligence investigates the existence of at least two more cells in active situation, which could be preparing more attacks in the city.

Criticisms of the Belgian labor
The balance of the work of the Belgian intelligence in these last four months-from the attacks of 13-N Paris- has raised doubts among foreign intelligence services. Also in Spanish.


According to confess, it "inexplicable" to those investigating the jihadist phenomenon Abdeslam Salah has remained "hidden in a neighborhood taken by the police in a city that was literally closed by the military."


Attribute this "chaos" in the investigations to the fact that "has acted too late in Molenbeek. Until four months ago they circulated around there good terrorists and weapons that went to other countries. Belgian services do not have a network of informants or assets within the Muslim community because until recently did not believe it necessary. And it is proving them wrong "explain these voices.
http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/seguridad/Analisis-miembros-CNI-inteligencia-antiterrorista_0_2678132167.html

LeBrok
30-03-16, 05:41
the goal of the IS terorist is to end up in heaven with 49 virginsThat's plan B. Main goal is the Caliphate and the last biblical battle, the Armageddon.

and ordinary Muslims should join non-Muslims, not the other way around Would it hurt your honor to extend your hand first to other human being? I guess it would require some initiative and friendliness on your part. Imposible?

mr_y82
30-03-16, 06:16
I didn't have time to expand the subject, so I only wrote the essential thoughts....
We could dive in subject of postcolonial geopolitics in Near East and "smart" moves of two Bushes when time allows.

It might not be worth the bother....heh, I spent a long time being irate about those guys in my youth... too bad it's gotten so out of hand that Jeb seems like a more sane voice than the 2 GOP front runners, but that's totally off topic too...

Hope progress is possible.

bicicleur
30-03-16, 08:48
They have lost control over the neighborhood Molenbeek


23/03/2016 25
Analysis CNI members: the Belgian anti-terrorist intelligence has been a disaster
His agents have not developed a network of informants and are overwhelmed. They have spent months asking for help to Spain

Criticism from members of the antiterrorist intelligence to the role of the Belgian secret services in recent months. They believe that they have failed to effectively control communities to identify Islamic jihadists. "The situation in Molenbeek has gone out of hand" they explain.

Belgian intelligence is "supersaturated"
The Digital Confidential sources could contact the Spanish anti-terrorist intelligence services, who confirmed that Belgium took months "struggling to avoid an attack of this nature".


As they explain these voices, the Belgian intelligence service 'Organe de Coordination pour l'Analyse the Menace' (Coordinating Body for Threat Analysis) had already warned other countries-including services Spain- that its agents "do not They cope to control all suspected of receiving notices ".


The Belgian Government, explain these sources, took months for help to foreign intelligence services to try to prevent an attack. Among them, the Spanish experts jihadism.

They acknowledge privately that the situation "has gone out of hand," especially in the neighborhood of Molenbeek, where he was arrested Abdeslam hidden after four months and where much of the Muslim community living in the Belgian capital.
Hideouts with explosives in Brussels
For the moment, according to data that currently has the Spanish intelligence, it is unknown whether the attacks in Brussels are retaliation for the arrest of the leader of the suicide of Paris, Salah Abdeslam.
However, as long as this data from the Spanish intelligence, there is a suspicion that may have stockpiles of explosives and hidden weapons Molenbeek district, considered a "sanctuary" for terrorism. There is evidence that this is where would the jihadists hiding currently in the city.
According to these voices, Belgian intelligence investigates the existence of at least two more cells in active situation, which could be preparing more attacks in the city.

Criticisms of the Belgian labor
The balance of the work of the Belgian intelligence in these last four months-from the attacks of 13-N Paris- has raised doubts among foreign intelligence services. Also in Spanish.


According to confess, it "inexplicable" to those investigating the jihadist phenomenon Abdeslam Salah has remained "hidden in a neighborhood taken by the police in a city that was literally closed by the military."


Attribute this "chaos" in the investigations to the fact that "has acted too late in Molenbeek. Until four months ago they circulated around there good terrorists and weapons that went to other countries. Belgian services do not have a network of informants or assets within the Muslim community because until recently did not believe it necessary. And it is proving them wrong "explain these voices.
http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/seguridad/Analisis-miembros-CNI-inteligencia-antiterrorista_0_2678132167.html

it has nothing to do with intelligence
it is the result of 30 years laissez-faire
the law had no impact on these people because the mayor didn't allow the police to do their job properly

bicicleur
30-03-16, 08:50
Would it hurt your honor to extend your hand first to other human being? I guess it would require some initiative and friendliness on your part. Imposible?

I wouldn't mind, but first I have to be convinced of their sincerity.

I refer to my posts 80 and 94.

Angela
30-03-16, 14:06
And sometimes many eggs!



You come across as so rational that it would be hard to argue against you (but see if that stops me from chiming in! :))... I agree with almost all of this.

I don't really think the period of "hands off" has been tried, at least not by the US (but I agree 100% that appeasement is not the answer)... Our drones are ever active, not to mention "advisors," "peace-keeping forces," etc... But there is a difference between hands-off and appeasement, even if subtle...

In my mind hands-off implies no political, economic, and military intervention, but this was pretty much a non-option given the long history of tension... However, before the era of increased terrorism, maybe we could have relied on domestic (US), Norwegian, South American, heck even Russian oil ;) sorry Ruskies!... AND BUILT THORIUM REACTORS (why has this not caught on? can some scientist please set me straight... I know you could not weaponize it, so we ended the research, but you can make energy so incredibly efficiently from what I have read and seen... And it's not a dangerous process like modern nuclear power... taking this on the word of people much smarter than me!)... If we had truly stopped the Imperialism of the 20th century US we could have seen if hands-off was even possible... As long as we rely on them economically, there is always a conflict of interest concern...

Appeasement implies that you are being wronged, or overlooking some territorial advance (like Hitler... I don't think we need remind Europeans of this!) and you keep giving something up to prevent open conflict. Appeasement has a bad (albeit earned and well deserved) reputation for not working... If we had truly been hands-off, and the various attacks still persisted, we would have been justified in reacting accordingly (before my political awakening prior to the 2000 election, I thought I would go into the military)... Here's the problem... given the US' past, everything we do, whether well intended or not, is currently tainted with that imperial past... To deny that serves neither the West nor the Middle East, and the dirty history sheds light on the complexity of the issue as well... There is a very real source of distrust on both sides... I just want the quickest and least bloody path to a better more peaceful world while we still have a snowball's chance in hell of saving our species... I think ALL of us here agree on that front, and if it was an easy fix we'd all share the same opinion or the problem would already have been solved...

I AM NOT PROPOSING APPEASEMENT, FOR THE ATTACKS TAKING PLACE, JUST IN CASE I WAS NOT CLEAR... I think it is clear that doing nothing is not the solution... No one accused me as such, this is preemptive (like George W. Bush's war... :P)

If everyone would just watch some Carl Sagan and chill the f--k out we could start having a serious global conversation!

I don't mean to be brusque, but ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist of your choice is not interested in having a conversation with you; he's interested in forcing you to convert, and if you don't he's going to shoot you or cut your head off and then take your wife and daughters. The goal, as was pointed out above, is to bring about a world wide caliphate. Perhaps even, in the most dedicated ones, to bring about the Apocalypse. I know it sounds mad, but this isn't the first mad ideology to sweep the world.

They're telling us what they want and what they intend to do. Why do so many people refuse to take them at their word, especially when they are actually doing it wherever they take control? When a husband threatens to kill and dismember his wife, and he's already done the exact same thing to a prior wife, not only should he be taken seriously, he should be taken down for everyone's safety. It's like trying to have a philosophical discussion with a rabid dog.

Appeasement in this context is when European countries, not just to protect the flow of oil and trade contracts, or even just to get votes, but in order not to rock the boat and have riots erupt in their cities, allow enclaves to grow where the inhabitants follow not the laws of their host country, but the antiquated laws of their countries of origin. It's when European women and girls in a European city can continually get harassed merely for wearing European clothing, and the police do nothing. It's when law enforcement doesn't come down like a ton of bricks on the vicious harassment rained down on Jews, a situation which has gotten so bad that we're seeing a new exodus of Jews from Europe. It's also when no one dares to say, much less do anything, about the fact that the incidence of rape has skyrocketed since the migration during the last decades of young men from countries with repressive attitudes toward women.

On a more geo-political scale it means thinking that you could let this wildfire spread throughout the Middle East and it wouldn't affect Europe or the U.S. After all, who cares if there's a genocide of Christians and Yazidis? Well, that was obviously a miscalculation. It's hitting Europe the hardest right now, but the U.S. is the big target.

As for the few pitiful sorties a day that the U.S. administration is flying in the Middle East, or the token, perfunctory aid it is giving the Kurds, yes, I do think it's the equivalent of a hands off policy.

mr_y82
30-03-16, 16:25
I can see you points about appeasement regarding Europe...

As far as the statement about having tried hands off, I think I agreed (or meant to) that even if we are doing that in a sense now, it followed a period that built a lot of mistrust... and that cannot be overlooked in analyzing the current situation... You can't just look at a portion of the history and expect to draw accurate conclusions... I don't have the answer, but playing the card of complete historical innocence would certainly misguided (I am not accusing you of this, but do feel you are minimizing the effects of foreign policy in the 20th century....)

"After all, who cares if there's a genocide of Christians and Yazidis?"

For what is is worth, I do care.

"I don't mean to be brusque, but ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist of your choice is not interested in having a conversation with you;"

I don't think I implied they were... I believe I just finished off a serious post with a fanciful idealistic improbability...

Thanks for the feedback.

LeBrok
30-03-16, 16:52
I wouldn't mind, but first I have to be convinced of their sincerity.
. You will never know, neither they, you have to take a chance. Ordinary Muslims need us now to have their back. If we fail them, they will be alienated, and more readily join extremist groups. This will create more mess and problems for us in the future. In short, helping them we help ourselves.

bicicleur
30-03-16, 18:56
I don't mean to be brusque, but ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist of your choice is not interested in having a conversation with you; he's interested in forcing you to convert, and if you don't he's going to shoot you or cut your head off and then take your wife and daughters. The goal, as was pointed out above, is to bring about a world wide caliphate. Perhaps even, in the most dedicated ones, to bring about the Apocalypse. I know it sounds mad, but this isn't the first mad ideology to sweep the world.

They're telling us what they want and what they intend to do. Why do so many people refuse to take them at their word, especially when they are actually doing it wherever they take control? When a husband threatens to kill and dismember his wife, and he's already done the exact same thing to a prior wife, not only should he be taken seriously, he should be taken down for everyone's safety. It's like trying to have a philosophical discussion with a rabid dog.

Appeasement in this context is when European countries, not just to protect the flow of oil and trade contracts, or even just to get votes, but in order not to rock the boat and have riots erupt in their cities, allow enclaves to grow where the inhabitants follow not the laws of their host country, but the antiquated laws of their countries of origin. It's when European women and girls in a European city can continually get harassed merely for wearing European clothing, and the police do nothing. It's when law enforcement doesn't come down like a ton of bricks on the vicious harassment rained down on Jews, a situation which has gotten so bad that we're seeing a new exodus of Jews from Europe. It's also when no one dares to say, much less do anything, about the fact that the incidence of rape has skyrocketed since the migration during the last decades of young men from countries with repressive attitudes toward women.

On a more geo-political scale it means thinking that you could let this wildfire spread throughout the Middle East and it wouldn't affect Europe or the U.S. After all, who cares if there's a genocide of Christians and Yazidis? Well, that was obviously a miscalculation. It's hitting Europe the hardest right now, but the U.S. is the big target.

As for the few pitiful sorties a day that the U.S. administration is flying in the Middle East, or the token, perfunctory aid it is giving the Kurds, yes, I do think it's the equivalent of a hands off policy.

yesterday Russian soldiers were in Palmyra when it was taken back from ISIS
some of them died

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160329/1037166120/russian-hero-palmyra-named-father.html

where are the Europeans and the Americans?
doing bussiness with Erdogan !

Garrick
30-03-16, 22:17
^doesn't sound good!



I am not qualified to answer this (Garrick's answer sounds good to me! But I am curious to research some)... You guys are obviously more aware of the current political landscape on your side of the pond... I feel like I have helped steer the conversation away from the topic, but it's still related and you guys seem tolerant of an evolving conversation. :good_job:


I respect all people and everyone has right to profess and practice his or her religion to be Believer or Atheist.

Unfortunately some people do not have this luck.

We can see whole nations and communities in the Middle East and Asia Minor have disappeared in the last 100 years, some in recent times and today in front of our eyes.

And there are areas in the Balkans where are same processes, where Christians and Atheists disappeared between ten and twenty years before, and there are new areas where the same thing can happen.

Migration crisis that is still in progress showed that Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia are the last line.

Unfortunately these three states are now weak, with many problems, economic, demographic etc.

They cannot alone to cope with the many complex challenges and problems, they need support, if they not endure, the problems will be much bigger and will be moving to central Europe.

Carlos
30-03-16, 23:24
Carlos, you are the best example why terrorism works. The odds of being killed by a terrorist in Western World is much lower than being strike by a lightning, or even lower than winning 6/49 lottery (1 in 16 million). To equate it with work hazard is unbelievably naive and irresponsible. Another IS terrorist goal is to create hate between Christians or Europeans in general and all Muslims. Judging by behaviour of many Europeans, they are achieving their goal. To beat IS and their hateful ideology, the West should support and unite with ordinary Muslims against all the extremists, ether Saudi's mullas, IS or Nazi.

On the contrary, you and people with their ideas will finally contribute to the end of the West. They do not want to realize that moderate Muslims only talk about themselves, their only concern is that not relate to the radicals, a form of survival and move on, people like you can have very good intentions, but only give time or wait for them to explode a bomb in the face and die in their bumbas will: Peace, and the world will already have changed. Go to where the ISIS and say that is a citizen of the world and then tell us what this has done, I think you can not tell us. His false kindness will kill us all, even with yourself, ask yourself if you want harakiri, others will not.

LeBrok
31-03-16, 02:27
On the contrary, you and people with their ideas will finally contribute to the end of the West. They do not want to realize that moderate Muslims only talk about themselves, their only concern is that not relate to the radicals, a form of survival and move on, people like you can have very good intentions, but only give time or wait for them to explode a bomb in the face and die in their bumbas will: Peace, and the world will already have changed. Go to where the ISIS and say that is a citizen of the world and then tell us what this has done, I think you can not tell us. His false kindness will kill us all, even with yourself, ask yourself if you want harakiri, others will not.Did you check the odds, or you don't believe in math and statistics? Carlos it is not the bad world but your mind paralyzing your life. Stop being so afraid. Hug the stranger, be nice to people. It might be the cure you need.

bicicleur
31-03-16, 19:28
Did you check the odds, or you don't believe in math and statistics? Carlos it is not the bad world but your mind paralyzing your life. Stop being so afraid. Hug the stranger, be nice to people. It might be the cure you need.

no he didn't check the statistics, because that is beyond the point
now the casualties are still small, at least in the western world
but should we just sit and wait till the casulties become bigger?
that is at least the goal of these terrorists
their goal is not to divide the west, it is to completley destroy it

Yetos
31-03-16, 20:45
Did you check the odds, or you don't believe in math and statistics? Carlos it is not the bad world but your mind paralyzing your life. Stop being so afraid. Hug the stranger, be nice to people. It might be the cure you need.

indeed, odds are small,

but then why all that mess? for a few tenths of humans? no need to do such mess, like a bus had an accident,
but what is it then that make this aatack repulsive?

IT IS THE CREATION OF DILEMA,
it is to stop western world think clear, and promote panic and fear among Free world,

OK TO MAKE MY SHELF CLEAR,
HOW MANY WERE THE ODDS TO DIE AT 9/11
then why such a mess after?
what is the difference among WTC and Brussels airport?
non, odds still are small,
so ok what next?
hit the white house? or EU parliament?
still odds are small,

it is where terrorists hit and why,
they hit train and Metro station, Bus station airports, why?
simply they want to panic western world, or to input fear,

PANIC, cause if you Panic you make wrong moves,
FEAR, cause if you fear, metro busses airplanes etc, you close your shelf inside the house, and leave free space for 'enemy'


and I ask,
If EURO-2016 will be cancelled,
or to Die by terrorist at a stadium at EURO 2016
how much are the odds? small?
WHO will WIN?
the terrorists? or the West?

so a small mathematic odd, if cancels a European tradition and Fiesta, BECOMES A WINNER.

7663

Carlos
31-03-16, 22:02
Did you check the odds, or you don't believe in math and statistics? Carlos it is not the bad world but your mind paralyzing your life. Stop being so afraid. Hug the stranger, be nice to people. It might be the cure you need.


Have you made a statistic to 20 or 30 years time? Our current problem is that of his country in the future if in the West, the known world loses this war. I know of what I speak I have embraced some 12,000 more approx. unknown in my life between Spanish and international, I take very in and for years wanted to deceive me thinking as you think, but not so confident, in the known world, Western Europe we have the enemy inside the house, from his distant galaxy is not able even to perceive the danger is West, the next will be you.


From here I call on Russia to be alert to the imminent and premeditated betrayal of other Western countries to Spain, I hope that Russia will not suffer that Spain is delivered to Islam. It's horrible belong to the place where always the fate of the world is cooked, are decisive moments, you follow in your remote galaxy, as Australians, we arrive noticas badly and late, is what has to be so far away, not just or even perceive the world as it is.

bicicleur
01-04-16, 00:22
if you want statistics, in 2013 18000 people died from terrorism attacks
in 2014 it was 32000, an increase with more than 75 %
in 2015, it is unknown yet, but it is a lot more than 2014
if we go on at this rate, maybe it will be 100.000 this year
and in in another 3 or 4 year it will be 1.000.000

number 1 terrorist killer is Boko Haram, 2nd is ISIS

LeBrok
01-04-16, 00:42
no he didn't check the statistics, because that is beyond the point
now the casualties are still small, at least in the western world
but should we just sit and wait till the casulties become bigger? And who is advocating sitting and doing nothing?

that is at least the goal of these terrorists
their goal is not to divide the west, it is to completley destroy it[/QUOTE]Isn't it easier to divide first and then conquer? It is known for ages recipe for a easy win. Refresh Roman proverbs.

Yetos
01-04-16, 06:21
And who is advocating sitting and doing nothing?
that is at least the goal of these terrorists
their goal is not to divide the west, it is to completley destroy itIsn't it easier to divide first and then conquer? It is known for ages recipe for a easy win. Refresh Roman proverbs.[/QUOTE]

but they allready did,
half west suffers from Islamophobia
and the rest suffers from immigrantophillia,

WATCH THE RESULTS, OF THE DIVISION.
EUROPE HAS MORE FENCES THAN AT COLD WAR TIMES.

extra-nationalism is raising,
soon Neo-Nazism will run all over Europe.

And I have to agree with you that numbers are still small
drugs and car accidents kill more people than terrorists,
but terrorism is a war of ideology, not car accidents,

car accident death is not an ideology death, people do not die in the idea of a car,
but a shelf-bomb terrorism, is an ideology warrior,
he dies and kills for a reason, religion superiority.

bicicleur
01-04-16, 08:29
And who is advocating sitting and doing nothing?


the people of the 'peace movement'
it is all the fault of the west
and they act as if ISIS don't exist

bicicleur
01-04-16, 14:25
this head of police of Brussels west says the 6 Brussels police departments shouldn't be united

http://www.hln.be/regio/nieuws-uit-brussel/-we-hebben-meer-flikken-nodig-die-arabisch-spreken-a2662857/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1459503795

he also says they should hire policemen who speak Arabic
shouldn't the immigrants learn French or Dutch?

they don't want a proper police force, they want somebocy in a uniform who is 'friend' with everybody in the neighbourhood
and forgives them all their crimes if they promise not to do it any more

it is this approach which lasts allready 30 years that made the Brussels suburbs rotten

Carlos
01-04-16, 14:44
West is already divided, European countries are not really united. If the world wants the Isis would last two days, why they not end with these murderers?

Carlos
01-04-16, 15:03
At least 50 supporters of the terrorist organization Daesh work at Zaventem airport in Brussels, as reported Thursday that several Belgian media quoted police sources and an open letter issued by police officers.


According to the newspaper "Het Belang van Limburg", some of these staff members suspected of supporting jihadist causes have security passes and can even access the aircraft cabins.


Some of these workers were revoked their access cards after discovering that they were supporters of the terrorist organization, but "it is clear that not all" as reported agents working at the airport, was quoted by this newspaper.


The areas where working people suspected of supporting the terrorist organization are the airport shops, cleaning services and luggage transport, according to this media, citing police sources.


President of the Belgian police union SLFP, Vincent Gilles, said Thursday on RTL television that some of these workers "celebrated the attacks in Paris" last November 13, as he confirmed agents working there.


In fact, a hundred of the nearly 400 police officers working at the airport Brussels-Zaventem, one of the scenarios of terrorist attacks in the Belgian capital, issued Wednesday an open letter in which they expressed regret that many people "with serious background criminal "work at the airport.


Police reported that much of the airport workers that deals with the management of luggage on the tracks "have criminal records, often for serious criminal acts," which attributed as a result of "progressive labor activation policies".


Among airport staff would therefore people "suspected" in the opinion of the airport police for their "radical ideology and a long history of history behind them."


In addition, the newspaper "Het Belang van Limburg" reported that the agents detected collaborators of terrorists posing as tourists, had been sent to the airport before the attacks to gather information on the safety of the site.


"Some suspected of having fought in Syria people arrived at the airport as false tourists. Informed of their presence, but do not know if they did something with that information, "they reported the agents quoted by this means.

http://totalviral.es/50-simpatizantes-de-estado-islamico-trabajan-en-el-aeropuerto-de-bruselas

So they will not get anywhere, Belgium again do the wrong thing or get batteries or will contribute to the destruction of Europe.

ElHorsto
01-04-16, 15:18
the people of the 'peace movement'
it is all the fault of the west
and they act as if ISIS don't exist

I see no 'peace movement', I only see some sort of "3D chess", lol.

Angela
01-04-16, 15:28
this head of police of Brussels west says the 6 Brussels police departments shouldn't be united

http://www.hln.be/regio/nieuws-uit-brussel/-we-hebben-meer-flikken-nodig-die-arabisch-spreken-a2662857/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1459503795

he also says they should hire policemen who speak Arabic
shouldn't the immigrants learn French or Dutch?

they don't want a proper police force, they want somebocy in a uniform who is 'friend' with everybody in the neighbourhood
and forgives them all their crimes if they promise not to do it any more

it is this approach which lasts allready 30 years that made the Brussels suburbs rotten

Did he give a rationale for not unifying the police departments? He must have one. Does he understand the urgency of having a unified anti-terrorist team or at least sharing information?

Hiring police who speak Arabic is actually an effective police tool. The goal is to build a rapport with the inhabitants, to gain trust, to develop informants etc. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be learning Flemish. Actually, from what I've been reading, the younger generation supposedly doesn't speak very good Arabic, and speaks better Flemish. Isn't that correct?

Just to address a few things that were said upthread...it's obviously true that more people have died in car accidents than from terrorism, a point that was made by President Obama just this week, but as societies, as people, we've accepted the risk that some people will die in car accidents for the benefit we derive from driving cars. To put it in a very cold blooded manner, car accidents don't stop society in its tracks. If people are afraid to use airplanes, or buses, or trains, it will indeed stop society in its tracks.

There's also an additional, very important factor to consider. How many people die from cancer every year, or heart attacks? Obviously, more than from terrorism, by many orders of magnitude. People are traumatized by death, that's a given, but it is indeed different when you know that your loved one, your friend, your neighbor was killed, not by a natural disease process or an accident but by the malign, deliberate act of someone who didn't even know him. There's also an order of magnitude difference between learning that your husband died in a car accident and learning that on a morning just like any other he went to work, a plane was deliberately flown into his building, and he calls you to tell you how much he loves you and he's now going to jump out of the building because he can't face being burned to death. Oh, and they never identify enough of him to bury. These are the kinds of things that spread panic.

Plus, does anyone doubt that if they could get their hands on a biologic or a dirty bomb they wouldn't use it?

So, with all due respect to people who have raised this issue, it's really beside the point.

Oh, I don't want to speak for LeBrok, but I thought he meant that we should try to divide the Muslim world by forging an alliance with moderate Muslims.

Carlos
01-04-16, 16:38
https://www.facebook.com/1649621598602855/videos/1728720667359614/

There is no moderate Islam

LeBrok
01-04-16, 16:58
https://www.facebook.com/1649621598602855/videos/1728720667359614/

There is no moderate IslamAfter watching room of couple of hundred of muslim men (out of 1.8 billion Muslims) who came to listen to a radical cleric, you declared that there is no moderate Islam. Very smart, Carlos! Keep selling cheeses, don't change your carrier!

LABERIA
01-04-16, 17:40
After watching room of couple of hundred of muslim men (out of 1.8 billion Muslims) who came to listen to a radical cleric, you declared that there is no moderate Islam. Very smart, Carlos! Keep selling cheeses, don't change your carrier!

I think he is right. Islam and especially Arab world are in their middle age.

Maleth
01-04-16, 18:00
https://www.facebook.com/1649621598602855/videos/1728720667359614/

There is no moderate Islam

Firstly I would like to say that if this preacher was not arrested and taken to court for advocating murder including the people present who approved, then the country where ever this speech was done is doing a disservice to the country this has taken place and all the democratic world.

Secondly of course there is a moderate Islam. I agree that Islamic countries are some 100 years behind and the reality will cause a shock to wake up to the truths of life after many decades of indoctrination where people had no information access and will live in denial for a long time. Carlos maybe you can engage in debates like the one below (go to 5:48 since homosexuality was mentioned) and see that there are Muslim people who more then willing to make changes in their societies. Debates / Preaching s (in the Christian world) in the 1800's, 1900's and 2000's are all very different in their content of tolerance and verbal violence. Some are catching up faster then others but no one is going to be immune whether they like it or not. Try to see the whole picture instead of getting fixated on the negatives


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI7D5hU-mU

Tomenable
01-04-16, 18:01
http://img.sadistic.pl/pics/7cbc6099c5b4.png

:laughing:

Maleth
01-04-16, 18:07
I think he is right. Islam and especially Arab world are in their middle age.

Some of it is very middle age but most of the sentiments are not much different from a European Psyche of 100/200 years ago. We only see it that way because its history to us. Some have moved forward more then others and Islam as a generally speaking backward Religion is catching up. Painful? yes but not any more then the Christian / Jewish experience (I mean no offence just the truth)

Sile
01-04-16, 18:54
Firstly I would like to say that if this preacher was not arrested and taken to court for advocating murder including the people present who approved, then the country where ever this speech was done is doing a disservice to the country this has taken place and all the democratic world.

Secondly of course there is a moderate Islam. I agree that Islamic countries are some 100 years behind and the reality will cause a shock to wake up to the truths of life after many decades of indoctrination where people had no information access and will live in denial for a long time. Carlos maybe you can engage in debates like the one below (go to 5:48 since homosexuality was mentioned) and see that there are Muslim people who more then willing to make changes in their societies. Debates / Preaching s (in the Christian world) in the 1800's, 1900's and 2000's are all very different in their content of tolerance and verbal violence. Some are catching up faster then others but no one is going to be immune whether they like it or not. Try to see the whole picture instead of getting fixated on the negatives


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI7D5hU-mU

I agree with Carlos ..................but I include all religions

Plus , all religious leaders for every country should be nominated/elected by the politicians from that country with a change of these religious leaders every 2 years.

Yetos
01-04-16, 21:15
13 countries were ATHEISM is a CRIME with PENALTY DEATH

Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Qatar
Yemen
Sudan
Somalia
Iran
Pakistan
Mauritania
Nigeria
Malaisia !!!!!
Maldives
Afganistan

any coinsidence?

no need to say about the fate of Pagans, gay etc etc

Carlos
01-04-16, 22:53
After watching room of couple of hundred of muslim men (out of 1.8 billion Muslims) who came to listen to a radical cleric, you declared that there is no moderate Islam. Very smart, Carlos! Keep selling cheeses, don't change your carrier!
We do not need all these people with this kind of expansionist religions mercurial aspects, today I am moderate and tomorrow murderer Belgian, and the children of Muslim origin celebrate in schools and Muslim workers Belgian airport celebrate, what the hell celebrate? people that has hosted, pay them rent, school and all have beendismembered by a bomb. What are your feelings? Do you have feelings for Europeans? The answer is no, I, I, me and then me. It is different from our system, do not think, do not feel the same, and they have no appreciation for us, know what I mean, besides that you yourselves are checking, the problem is they do not want to stop having hope in being human, I have not lost, but hope is not in them, in them is our destruction, now if they want to change the model of life, then keep trusting.

Mmmm what good cheeses, dairy products in general, I love milk.

Carlos
01-04-16, 23:04
Firstly I would like to say that if this preacher was not arrested and taken to court for advocating murder including the people present who approved, then the country where ever this speech was done is doing a disservice to the country this has taken place and all the democratic world.

Secondly of course there is a moderate Islam. I agree that Islamic countries are some 100 years behind and the reality will cause a shock to wake up to the truths of life after many decades of indoctrination where people had no information access and will live in denial for a long time. Carlos maybe you can engage in debates like the one below (go to 5:48 since homosexuality was mentioned) and see that there are Muslim people who more then willing to make changes in their societies. Debates / Preaching s (in the Christian world) in the 1800's, 1900's and 2000's are all very different in their content of tolerance and verbal violence. Some are catching up faster then others but no one is going to be immune whether they like it or not. Try to see the whole picture instead of getting fixated on the negatives


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJI7D5hU-mU


I see the whole picture. Look there are religions that are no longer religions are brainwashing, dangerous sects. These people focus all religion, all aspects of his life. What do secretly everything we Westerners without hiding or others in a discreet way? Yes, they commit adultery, many practice homosexuality, drinking alcohol, but the difference is that they have a latent programming can radicalize them, not us. They are like time bombs may be drinking alcohol a day or frolicking in bed with you and the next day can be radical. It is a different world from ours, reconciliation is impossible, want coexistence until we can devour. 0% tolerance, 0% privileges, them or us, and we are in our house.

Please can put these foreign videos with subtitles in Spanish, not too understand what they say.

Carlos
02-04-16, 01:45
Guerrilla tactics that the ISIS prepares for Europe
A laptop found during searches in Brussels contained images and maps of the office of the Belgian prime minister.

A laptop found in one of the houses of the jihadists assumptions contained images and maps of the office of the Belgian prime minister. Not the first time that the European authorities are aware of the importance that these objectives have for jihadists and after the attacks in Paris in November, the testimony of detainees and has witnessed.
All this together with the evidence that two of the terrorists Brussels, Khalid and Ibrahim the Bakraoui, had in their videos from security cameras Tihange Belgium nuclear complex power, which might suggest that some terrorist cells preparing to leave attacks on "soft targets", stations or cafes, and look for some big and most symbolic attack.

'There is every chance'


The probability that the Islamic State to equip itself with nuclear weapons can be higher than what many experts believe, warns a recent report 'Preventing nuclear terrorism' Harvard's Belfer Center.
The study identifies three types of hypothetical threat: that terrorists detonate a real nuclear bomb, sabotage a nuclear facility or using a "dirty bomb" to spread radioactive material.
The authors of the report have stressed, referring to numerous government studies, creating a crude nuclear bomb will not be an easy task for extremists, but "is potentially within the capabilities of a technically sophisticated terrorist group".

http://linkis.com/gaceta.es/noticias/s8w1q

LeBrok
02-04-16, 02:47
We do not need all these people with this kind of expansionist religions mercurial aspects, today I am moderate and tomorrow murderer Belgian, and the children of Muslim origin celebrate in schools and Muslim workers Belgian airport celebrate, what the hell celebrate? people that has hosted, pay them rent, school and all have beendismembered by a bomb. What are your feelings? Do you have feelings for Europeans? The answer is no, I, I, me and then me. It is different from our system, do not think, do not feel the same, and they have no appreciation for us, know what I mean, besides that you yourselves are checking, the problem is they do not want to stop having hope in being human, I have not lost, but hope is not in them, in them is our destruction, now if they want to change the model of life, then keep trusting.
.
Maybe I could believe you but I remember your hatred towards Catalonians and how you treated them. Is this your picture in your Avatar? Exactly how I imagine you. ;)

Maleth
02-04-16, 10:19
I see the whole picture.

I really wish you did. But generalizations and sweeping statements have never helped anyone. Radical and extremism is exactly the same irrelevant where its coming from.

http://www.euronews.com/2016/03/24/muslim-condemnation-of-attacks-not-enough-anymore-says-grand-mosque-imam


Please can put these foreign videos with subtitles in Spanish, not too understand what they say.

I love Spanish language but dont speak Spanish so sorry. I think that there are some rules here, that we have to use English on this forum.

Never the less in Spanish

http://es.euronews.com/2016/03/24/la-comunidad-musulmana-de-bruselas-muestra-su-rechazo-a-los-atentados-de/

Maciamo
02-04-16, 10:51
13 countries were ATHEISM is a CRIME with PENALTY DEATH

Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Qatar
Yemen
Sudan
Somalia
Iran
Pakistan
Mauritania
Nigeria
Malaisia !!!!!
Maldives
Afganistan

any coinsidence?

no need to say about the fate of Pagans, gay etc etc

It's unbelievable for Malaysia considering that 22.5% of the population is Chinese. According tot the religion survey in Malaysia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia) the country has 19.3% of Buddhists (hence by definition Atheists), 6% of self-declared Atheists, and 1.3% of Confucianists (also Atheists). So if they were to enforce their own law, Malaysians would commit a genocide against their ethnic Chinese, killing over 8 million people. I also can't understand how 6% of the population can confidently say they are Atheists when they face death penalty for saying so. Obviously the Malaysian government is not as zealous as Saudi Arabia is sentencing Atheists to death.

bicicleur
02-04-16, 11:53
It's unbelievable for Malaysia considering that 22.5% of the population is Chinese. According tot the religion survey in Malaysia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia) the country has 19.3% of Buddhists (hence by definition Atheists), 6% of self-declared Atheists, and 1.3% of Confucianists (also Atheists). So if they were to enforce their own law, Malaysians would commit a genocide against their ethnic Chinese, killing over 8 million people. I also can't understand how 6% of the population can confidently say they are Atheists when they face death penalty for saying so. Obviously the Malaysian government is not as zealous as Saudi Arabia is sentencing Atheists to death.

it's a law that is very convenient to condemn and execute someone if you don't find any other charge

Malaysia is not a secular country. Muslims are priviliged in Malaysia, others are discriminated.

A. Papadimitriou
02-04-16, 14:30
Well, according to Wikipedia the ethnic group of Malays (the Muslim majority, the privileged group) aren't allowed to change religion. I think the law applies only to them and not to the other ethnic groups (e.g. Han Chinese, Indians etc). And probably it isn't enforced.

"The PAS party wishes that the death penalty be enacted for Muslims who attempt to convert, as part of their ultimate desire to turn Malaysia into an Islamic state"

Carlos
02-04-16, 14:54
7665[/ATTACH];478027]Maybe I could believe you but I remember your hatred towards Catalonians and how you treated them. Is this your picture in your Avatar? Exactly how I imagine you. ;)

The man of my avatar is Bernardo's father of my maternal great great grandmother, pic in 1899 originating in Parauta (Málaga) hometown ibn Umar ibn Hafsun


As you can see I am much younger, I along with my cousins.
7665
7666
I am very young, playing in a field day to be a horse.
7667
Saludos.

bicicleur
02-04-16, 15:14
Well, according to Wikipedia the ethnic group of Malays (the Muslim majority, the privileged group) aren't allowed to change religion. I think the law applies only to them and not to the other ethnic groups (e.g. Han Chinese, Indians etc). And probably it isn't enforced.

"The PAS party wishes that the death penalty be enacted for Muslims who attempt to convert, as part of their ultimate desire to turn Malaysia into an Islamic state"


so not Muslims are priviliged, but Islam is

Yetos
02-04-16, 19:28
It's unbelievable for Malaysia considering that 22.5% of the population is Chinese. According tot the religion survey in Malaysia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Malaysia) the country has 19.3% of Buddhists (hence by definition Atheists), 6% of self-declared Atheists, and 1.3% of Confucianists (also Atheists). So if they were to enforce their own law, Malaysians would commit a genocide against their ethnic Chinese, killing over 8 million people. I also can't understand how 6% of the population can confidently say they are Atheists when they face death penalty for saying so. Obviously the Malaysian government is not as zealous as Saudi Arabia is sentencing Atheists to death.

I put the marks !!!! on Malaisia, cause i could not believe it , cause I also was surprised.
I consider Malaisia a quite stable and progresive country, which tries and make efforts,
yet the source included also Mailaisia,
also Malaysia has a strange kind of goverment,
Barisan National, a kind of autocracy by a party,
perhaps a diplomatic reason or bargain? and they pass such a law?

Garrick
03-04-16, 02:24
After watching room of couple of hundred of muslim men (out of 1.8 billion Muslims) who came to listen to a radical cleric, you declared that there is no moderate Islam. Very smart, Carlos! Keep selling cheeses, don't change your carrier!


Much has been writing about moderate Muslims or Fundamentalist Muslims etc. But it is from our perspective. In reality, in a world that Muslims are created that's different. In another post I will explain in more detail.

I assume you mean the need for dialogue with Muslims.

Yes, Islam is big religion. In the Balkans, there are a lot of Muslims. In Albania, more than 70%, in Bosnia, about 44%, Macedonia 35%, Montenegro 17%, Bulgaria 10%. In Serbia, about 20% (3% if we look at Serbia without Kosovo, in Kosovo now over 92% of the people are Muslims).

Example clips from the Balkans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQG2roYtn_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8XI2tygOJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jZfq9S9xnY

Muslims in religious issues prefer to conduct a dialogue with Christians and Jews.

(The problem may be the omission of Polytheists and Atheists.)

But in any case, the dialogue yields better understanding. With better knowledge of the matter is understandable why the terms moderate Muslims or Fundamentalist Muslim is not happiest forged, given that they are certainly widely entered into use outside the Islamic world.

Carlos
03-04-16, 02:36
They say that Angela Merkel has lost control over the refugee issue, I wonder who would send nosing around, why not take care of refugees all Muslim countries there are Saudi Arabia, even U.S.A.? what Europe looks on that topic. The erroneous decision Merkel is pushing up Germany's anti-immigration and anti-Muslim immigration parties.


Open borders: The collective suicide of Europe

http://vk.com/video195897031_171395793

Yetos
03-04-16, 09:31
@ Carlos,

Spain as also Greece, as also every European country, is guilty for immigration,
Spain once was the open door, before Italy and Greece, and they use them to collect vegetables, remember?
in North they use them to collect carbage, or at coal mines, etc etc,

But now the situation has changed,
they grew in numbers, and continuous entrance might create problem, problem of assimilation to Western culture,
if a 3rd generation immigrant can terrify a country, then the problem is us, we can not assimilate them,
and must be solved quick enough, before religious wars turn back to Europe.

Garrick
03-04-16, 12:16
@ Carlos,

Spain as also Greece, as also every European country, is guilty for immigration,
Spain once was the open door, before Italy and Greece, and they use them to collect vegetables, remember?
in North they use them to collect carbage, or at coal mines, etc etc,

But now the situation has changed,
they grew in numbers, and continuous entrance might create problem, problem of assimilation to Western culture,
if a 3rd generation immigrant can terrify a country, then the problem is us, we can not assimilate them,
and must be solved quick enough, before religious wars turn back to Europe.

Balkans, Italy and Spain are line.

But individual country alone cannot solve problem.

This is European problem, it requests European unity and strong European leadership.

mr_y82
03-04-16, 20:27
I appreciate the continued dialogue...

"

2016.04.01
Syria
Palmyra
40 dead

A mass grave is discovered containing women and children among other victims of the Islamic State.



That was not an April Fools' joke.

"Asad Shah was a true peace-loving (Ahmadi) Muslim in Scotland
who was
stabbed (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/the-questions-nobody-wants-to-ask-about-asad-shahs-murder-2/)
to death by a more orthodox co-religionist
after wishing Christians a Happy Easter on Facebook.
The Imam of that country's largest mosque even
affirmed (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14383412.Imam_at_Scotland_s_biggest_mosque_praises _Islamist_assassin/)
that a
"true Muslim" kills those who are too tolerant of other religions."

7668
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/



What a f---ing shame... Emojis don't really cut it here.

Angela
03-04-16, 23:20
I don't know the specifics of British law, but just off the cuff, if that imam isn't a citizen he should be deported.

On the other hand....

@Garrick,

I have no idea what you are getting at with your videos of Balkan Muslims praying in a mosque. Are you saying that by definition any Muslim who goes to a mosque to pray can't be "moderate"? If that's what you're saying, I vehemently disagree.

Most of the Albanian and Bosnian "Muslims" I've run across both in Italy and here have been secular, but the few who practice their faith whom I've encountered are indeed "moderate". The same is true, for that matter, of the Turkish Muslims I've met here. My hairdresser (it's a husband, wife, brother shop) is from northwestern Turkey and is incredibly warm, kind, gracious and beautifully mannered. It's a pleasure to deal with him and his family. Yes, he goes to the mosque occasionally, but he is certainly no fundamentalist, nor is his very stylish Turkish wife. They left precisely because they wanted more stability in their lives, as well as economic opportunity.

Are there some embittered young Balkan Muslim men who are prey for this kind of ideology? Yes, there are, but that doesn't mean that any young Bosnian who goes to the mosque to pray is just waiting to slaughter Christians who don't convert. That's just absurd.

Garrick
04-04-16, 01:05
I don't know the specifics of British law, but just off the cuff, if that imam isn't a citizen he should be deported.

On the other hand....

@Garrick,

I have no idea what you are getting at with your videos of Balkan Muslims praying in a mosque. Are you saying that by definition any Muslim who goes to a mosque to pray can't be "moderate"? If that's what you're saying, I vehemently disagree.

Most of the Albanian and Bosnian "Muslims" I've run across both in Italy and here have been secular, but the few who practice their faith whom I've encountered are indeed "moderate". The same is true, for that matter, of the Turkish Muslims I've met here. My hairdresser (it's a husband, wife, brother shop) is from northwestern Turkey and is incredibly warm, kind, gracious and beautifully mannered. It's a pleasure to deal with him and his family. Yes, he goes to the mosque occasionally, but he is certainly no fundamentalist, nor is his very stylish Turkish wife. They left precisely because they wanted more stability in their lives, as well as economic opportunity.

Are there some embittered young Balkan Muslim men who are prey for this kind of ideology? Yes, there are, but that doesn't mean that any young Bosnian who goes to the mosque to pray is just waiting to slaughter Christians who don't convert. That's just absurd.

No, quite the opposite, I spoke about dialogue, and in context, in correspondence with LeBrok because I think terms "moderate", "fundamentalist" etc. are not appropriate when someone talks about Muslims.

Yes, putting in some categories is a natural human endeavor to reduce ambiguity and that's all understandable, but in reality it is not appropriate when it comes to subject matter.

Simply Islam is different, and so, these issues are not simple, they take a lot to understand and learn and it requires effort and in reality people do not have time, therefore it is important to understand the terms.

mr_y82
04-04-16, 14:09
This seems counterproductive... http://nypost.com/2016/04/03/muslim-woman-run-down-during-far-right-protest-in-belgium/

edit:
I don't know the specifics of British law, but just off the cuff, if that imam isn't a citizen he should be deported.

agreed

LeBrok
04-04-16, 16:16
This seems counterproductive... http://nypost.com/2016/04/03/muslim-woman-run-down-during-far-right-protest-in-belgium/

edit:

agreed
Good news is that there is only 400 of these nazis in Belgium.

bicicleur
04-04-16, 16:45
Good news is that there is only 400 of these nazis in Belgium.

this woman was not overrun during the protest of 400 hooligans (not nazis) in Brussels, these hooligans never came in Molenbeek
she was overrun by 2 Molenbeek Magrebi Muslims drivers during a violent demonstration of 200 young Magrebis in Molenbeek
one of them was arested still inside the car, but he was not the driver
the other whose identity was known by now finally presented himself at the police station

this New York Post should get its facts straight
or did they purposely blaim the wrong group? are they telling Belgium is full of nazis?
and why didn't they report the 200 violent young Magrebis?

bicicleur
04-04-16, 16:47
I don't know the specifics of British law, but just off the cuff, if that imam isn't a citizen he should be deported.

On the other hand....

@Garrick,

I have no idea what you are getting at with your videos of Balkan Muslims praying in a mosque. Are you saying that by definition any Muslim who goes to a mosque to pray can't be "moderate"? If that's what you're saying, I vehemently disagree.

Most of the Albanian and Bosnian "Muslims" I've run across both in Italy and here have been secular, but the few who practice their faith whom I've encountered are indeed "moderate". The same is true, for that matter, of the Turkish Muslims I've met here. My hairdresser (it's a husband, wife, brother shop) is from northwestern Turkey and is incredibly warm, kind, gracious and beautifully mannered. It's a pleasure to deal with him and his family. Yes, he goes to the mosque occasionally, but he is certainly no fundamentalist, nor is his very stylish Turkish wife. They left precisely because they wanted more stability in their lives, as well as economic opportunity.

Are there some embittered young Balkan Muslim men who are prey for this kind of ideology? Yes, there are, but that doesn't mean that any young Bosnian who goes to the mosque to pray is just waiting to slaughter Christians who don't convert. That's just absurd.

I guess you're right about the Bosnian Muslims, but not about the majority of Turkish Muslims.
But Turkey is a big country, there are all kinds.

mr_y82
04-04-16, 18:31
this woman was not overrun during the protest of 400 hooligans (not nazis) in Brussels, these hooligans never came in Molenbeek
she was overrun by 2 Molenbeek Magrebi Muslims drivers during a violent demonstration of 200 young Magrebis in Molenbeek
one of them was arested still inside the car, but he was not the driver
the other whose identity was known by now finally presented himself at the police station

this New York Post should get its facts straight
or did they purposely blaim the wrong group? are they telling Belgium is full of nazis?
and why didn't they report the 200 violent young Magrebis?

Good questions... I saw another video where the car clearly drives past many people trying to stop it, before it squeezes though as seen in the video with the story... Thanks for the extra details... I did question the source (or any source with the kinds of links and related stories seen at that site... What makes them think I want to watch/read about celebrity as- shaking while reasearching the global political climate? They clearly know us "Americans" too well...).

You are saying the assailants were Muslim? Seems very odd for the author to leave that detail out... Given they had the following info available...

"Two 20-year-old men, reeking of alcohol, later walked into a police station in order to turn themselves in for the violent hit-and-run, according to Belgian news outlet La Libre.Police said the men were under the influence of alcohol and drugs, in possession of smoke bombs, and claimed they had no recollection of the incident.
Both men, who are from Molenbeek, were charged with armed rebellion and hit and run, the outlet said."

bicicleur
04-04-16, 18:50
Good questions... I saw another video where the car clearly drives past many people trying to stop it, before it squeezes though as seen in the video with the story... Thanks for the extra details... I did question the source (or any source with the kinds of links and related stories seen at that site... What makes them think I want to watch/read about celebrity as- shaking while reasearching the global political climate? They clearly know us "Americans" too well...).

You are saying the assailants were Muslim? Seems very odd for the author to leave that detail out... Given they had the following info available...

"Two 20-year-old men, reeking of alcohol, later walked into a police station in order to turn themselves in for the violent hit-and-run, according to Belgian news outlet La Libre.Police said the men were under the influence of alcohol and drugs, in possession of smoke bombs, and claimed they had no recollection of the incident.
Both men, who are from Molenbeek, were charged with armed rebellion and hit and run, the outlet said."

probably it was an accident caused by 2 drunk men, actually Muslims from Molenbeek, driving much to fast
probably some macho criminals, like there are so many in Molenbeek
but it happened during riots in Molenbeek by 200 local youngsters from Molenbeek
and there is no connection at all with the demonstration of 400 hooligans in Brussels which was not in Molenbeek and not even on the same day

Carlos
05-04-16, 15:54
https://www.facebook.com/zaragozadnj/videos/514067162113531/

Drame

bicicleur
05-04-16, 16:25
https://www.facebook.com/zaragozadnj/videos/514067162113531/

Drame

he loves the cameras and the press loves this kind of 'victims'

Garrick
06-04-16, 05:34
I guess you're right about the Bosnian Muslims, but not about the majority of Turkish Muslims.
But Turkey is a big country, there are all kinds.


Islam in the Balkans is legacy of Ottoman Empire.

Usually mixed environments are more exciting and different; certainly ambiguity and complexity are greater.

It is impossible to say what is better, environment with one dominant culture or mixed multicultural environment, for example environment where Christians Atheists, and Muslims live together, the opinions are divided.

Mixed environment emerge through migration. Basically there are two approaches:



Multicultural approach: immigration is allowed and desirable.
Approach which Japanese (Eastern Asians) apply: immigration is not allowed.


For Europe and today’s situation 1) first approach advocates allowance mass migrations toward Europe from South and South East, 2) second approach advocates not allowing migrations toward Europe from South and South East. Only Europe can know what is better for it.

bicicleur
06-04-16, 08:44
Islam in the Balkans is legacy of Ottoman Empire.

Usually mixed environments are more exciting and different; certainly ambiguity and complexity are greater.

It is impossible to say what is better, environment with one dominant culture or mixed multicultural environment, for example environment where Christians Atheists, and Muslims live together, the opinions are divided.

Mixed environment emerge through migration. Basically there are two approaches:



Multicultural approach: immigration is allowed and desirable.
Approach which Japanese (Eastern Asians) apply: immigration is not allowed.


For Europe and today’s situation 1) first approach advocates allowance mass migrations toward Europe from South and South East, 2) second approach advocates not allowing migrations toward Europe from South and South East. Only Europe can know what is better for it.

for Europe controlled immigration letting only people that have the right skills and attitude in is the best option

that is far from todays reality, Europe attracts rather unskilled people who don't have an open mind to integrate in European society

Carlos
07-04-16, 00:55
https://www.facebook.com/Antipodemosenmadrid/videos/944013819027268/

In Europe do not fit or a fool more

bicicleur
07-04-16, 05:21
https://www.facebook.com/Antipodemosenmadrid/videos/944013819027268/

In Europe do not fit or a fool more

these are Nazi schools sponsored by Nazi countries and we do nothing
just sit and wait for the next attack
and after that we burn a few candles on some square

Goga
07-04-16, 05:47
these are Nazi schools sponsored by Nazi countries and we do nothing
just sit and wait for the next attack
and after that we burn a few candles on some squareLike always, the innocent people are victims. But the richer getting richer. The Western Elite doesn't care about the terror attacks in Europe as long they become more wealthier.

It's obvious that users on eupedia.com are common folk here and not part of the Western Elite.


The whole current so called global 'liberal economy' regime doesn't make any sense. Elite cares only about wealth & gold and not about Western people, Western culture and human values in general..

bicicleur
07-04-16, 09:36
Like always, the innocent people are victims. But the richer getting richer. The Western Elite doesn't care about the terror attacks in Europe as long they become more wealthier.

It's obvious that users on eupedia.com are common folk here and not part of the Western Elite.


The whole current so called global 'liberal economy' regime doesn't make any sense. Elite cares only about wealth & gold and not about Western people, Western culture and human values in general..

it is not the rich elite, it is the politicians that fail

what about this :

the auditor of Mainz Germany demands 3 years of emprisonment for making a satyrical and critical videoclip about Erdogan :

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/jan-boehmermann-staatsanwaltschaft-ermittelt-nach-erdogan-satire-a-1085795.html

as you know, Merkel is making deals with Erdogan to solve immigration problems in Europe which she created herself

LeBrok
07-04-16, 16:02
The whole current so called global 'liberal economy' regime doesn't make any sense.Due to this "liberal global economy" you can study and work in Netherlands, though you are Kurd. This doesn't make sense to you? Perhaps you should study harder to understand or go back to Kurdistan, where things will be more traditional and transparent.

LeBrok
07-04-16, 16:11
Merkel is making deals with Erdogan to solve immigration problems in Europe which she created herself Did you forget about IS and Assad and millions living in camps, or that people have free will and money and can cross to Greece on rubber boats? Or that Greeks didn't stop them in camps and let them cross the border without proper papers? Or that EU didn't do much about this problem for couple of years till it got way worse?
You better take care of your home grown terrorists and stop demonizing Syrians and Merkel, they are not the problem.

A. Papadimitriou
07-04-16, 17:10
Did you forget about IS and Assad and millions living in camps, or that people have free will and money and can cross to Greece on rubber boats? Or that Greeks didn't stop them in camps and let them cross the border without proper papers? Or that EU didn't do much about this problem for couple of years till it got way worse?
You better take care of your home grown terrorists and stop demonizing Syrians and Merkel, they are not the problem.
In order to "stop them" detention centers were needed, not "camps". As long as someone is clear about it I don't have a problem with this view. The term "camps" is vague.
If they didn't have "proper" papers, that means that Austria and Hungary let them into their countries without proper papers also.
The number of arrivals rised mainly for 2 reasons 1) the left-wing Greek government didn't want to make detention centers 2) Germany decided to accept at least 800.000 people in a year only.
I agree though with your last sentence.

bicicleur
07-04-16, 17:12
Did you forget about IS and Assad and millions living in camps, or that people have free will and money and can cross to Greece on rubber boats? Or that Greeks didn't stop them in camps and let them cross the border without proper papers? Or that EU didn't do much about this problem for couple of years till it got way worse?
You better take care of your home grown terrorists and stop demonizing Syrians and Merkel, they are not the problem.

don't change the subject

Merkel is negotiating with Nazi Erdogan and is censoring those who try to critisize her

what do you have to tell about that?

and for the rest, there is no EU immigration policy at all
EU politicians should be persecuted for criminal neglect
Merkel who takes the lead in Europe and tries to impose her policies to the other EU member states does not dare to even criticisize her fellow politicians
she is putting herself at the top of an incapable and rotten system

Angela
07-04-16, 17:16
How on earth can criticizing a foreign leader be a crime? Under what kind of law? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Just another example of how essential it is in a democracy to have a constitutional provision guaranteeing free speech.

bicicleur
07-04-16, 18:02
How on earth can criticizing a foreign leader be a crime? Under what kind of law? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Just another example of how essential it is in a democracy to have a constitutional provision guaranteeing free speech.

ein Ermittlungsverfahren wegen Verdachts der Beleidigung von Organen oder Vertreter ausländischer Staaten eingeleitet worden. Der Paragraf 103 des Strafgesetzbuchs sieht im Fall einer Verurteilung eine Freiheitsstrafe von bis zu drei Jahren vor.

because of an 'insult to a representative of a foreign state' ; punishment is up to 3 years in jail

this is the clip in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc


how low can Merkel go?
she's going down the same road as Erdogan himself

bicicleur
07-04-16, 18:07
in the mean time, what was predicted is happening : now the Balkanroute is closed, today Italian coastguard picked up 300 boat refugees from Egypt

I wonder how this will handled now

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/34662/Buitenland/article/detail/2669035/2016/04/07/Italiaanse-kustwacht-pikt-300-migranten-op-vanuit-Egypte.dhtml?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=volghetnieuwsvanvandaaguitbelgi%C3%ABe nhetbuitenlandopdevoetophlnbe

PS : these refugees in the picture don't look very Syrian

Angela
07-04-16, 18:14
ein Ermittlungsverfahren wegen Verdachts der Beleidigung von Organen oder Vertreter ausländischer Staaten eingeleitet worden. Der Paragraf 103 des Strafgesetzbuchs sieht im Fall einer Verurteilung eine Freiheitsstrafe von bis zu drei Jahren vor.

because of an 'insult to a representative of a foreign state' ; punishment is up to 3 years in jail

this is the clip in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc


how low can Merkel go?
she's going down the same road as Erdogan himself

If this kind of speech is prohibited, then Germany isn't a free country.

LABERIA
07-04-16, 18:22
don't change the subject

Merkel is negotiating with Nazi Erdogan and is censoring those who try to critisize her

what do you have to tell about that?

and for the rest, there is no EU immigration policy at all
EU politicians should be persecuted for criminal neglect
Merkel who takes the lead in Europe and tries to impose her policies to the other EU member states does not dare to even criticisize her fellow politicians
she is putting herself at the top of an incapable and rotten system
Do you know why Europe accept the emigrants? Because there are no people to clean your toilets.
Of course there is a policie. Europe accepted the most intelligent and prepared people. Latter they ordered FYROM to close the borders. How this people was selected? There was not an selection. It's the current situation, the war who make this selection. Always in this kind of situations, the first who escape are the most intelligent and prepared people.
In the next years in the Western part of Europe, USA, Canada, we will have not only the concentration of the money but also the concentration of the brain. This process started with ex-communist countries and continue still today.

bicicleur
07-04-16, 18:30
If this kind of speech is prohibited, then Germany isn't a free country.

appearantly it is not about the clip itself

Erdogan was outraged by that clip and called the German embassador in Ankara into his office

now there has been a satyrical comment on this event, which is not to be found on the internet, it has been censored and removed

the author of this satire is now persecuted

this is indeed something without antecendents in modern Germany

Europe is getting closer to become Eurabia every day

bicicleur
07-04-16, 18:36
Do you know why Europe accept the emigrants? Because there are no people to clean your toilets.
Of course there is a policie. Europe accepted the most intelligent and prepared people. Latter they ordered FYROM to close the borders. How this people was selected? There was not an selection. It's the current situation, the war who make this selection. Always in this kind of situations, the first who escape are the most intelligent and prepared people.
In the next years in the Western part of Europe, USA, Canada, we will have not only the concentration of the money but also the concentration of the brain. This process started with ex-communist countries and continue still today.

read your own story
what is the conclusion?
that you are one of the dumb-asses who stayed in Albania?

LABERIA
07-04-16, 20:34
read your own story
what is the conclusion?
that you are one of the dumb-asses who stayed in Albania?http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/hour-of-reckoning-how-islamic-state-exploited-belgiums-status-of-being-worlds-richest-failed-state/articleshow/51537209.cms

DejaVu
07-04-16, 21:16
'Right to go to heaven' Turkey promotes Islamic martyrdom to children in colorful comics

The latest issue of a children’s magazine published by Diyanet, the Turkish Presidency of Religious Affairs, which is a government agency and the highest national religious body, contains a series of cartoons glorifying Islamic martyrdom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05D-pKZTe4o

Angela
07-04-16, 21:19
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albanians-rejected-in-germany-try-holland-instead-11-04-2015
Albanians Rejected in Germany - Try Holland Instead

Some Albanians whose asylum requests were rejected in Germany are heading for The Netherlands - where their chances are no better.

Over the course of this year, some 45,000 Albanians came to Germany in order to apply for asylum. Although 99 per cent of these asylum requests in Germany are refused, only a fraction of have been deported back to their country of origin. Some of those who where rejected in Germany are heading for The Netherlands.

Their requests will take at least six months to process there but they have almost zero chance of success. This is because the EU’s so-called Dublin regulations state that the country in which the initial asylum request is made is responsible for handling the request.

In this case a request is useless, as most Albanian asylum seekers applied in Germany before coming to The Netherlands.

Agim, 44, an asylum seeker from the northern Albanian city of Lezha, told BIRN that The Netherlands was the second country in which he had applied for asylum.

“I previously applied in Germany. They rejected me and my family and told us to go back to Albania,” he said.

“But I never want to go back to Albania, which is why I decided to come to The Netherlands to try again,” he added.

In two different asylum camps in Holland, BIRN heard the same story from other asylum seekers.

Arif, a man from the city of Elbasan, told BIRN that after his request was rejected in Germany, he came to The Netherlands to try again. He also took his family with him, unwilling to go back to Albania.

“In Albania the situation is very bad and I could not stay there any longer, which is why I requested asylum,” he said.

“The [Albanian] government has made our life very hard. Should I first pay my electrical bill before feeding my kids? I can’t, so I had to leave,” he added.

Asked if he was aware of the Dublin Regulations, which say that only one country is responsible for examining an asylum request, Arif said he was not.

The Netherlands is dealing with a sharp increase in the number of asylum seekers from around the world, which has increased the time it takes for a request to be considered.

The number from Albania has also risen. Some 431 Albanians requested asylum in the first nine months of 2015 compared to 86 in 2014 and only 32 in 2013.

However, these figures only taken into account Albanian asylum seekers who officially deposited an asylum request. The total number of Albanian asylum seekers housed in temporary crisis venues in Holland is unknown.

Normally, a decision on a request takes up to six months according the Dutch immigration office IND.

All asylum seekers, even those who requested asylum in another country first, have to run through the same procedures.

Owing to the lack of space in regular asylum centres, many asylum seekers are being temporarily accommodated in other venues, such as halls and sports stadiums, which are intended for use in disaster situations.

Conditions in these venues are very basic, which is they are only used to accommodate people until room is found in regular centres.

Because these venues are not meant for asylum seekers but for emergency situations, such as floods, the centres are only licensed for 72 hours at a time by the local municipalities.

This period can be extended but is the main reason why asylum seekers get moved around in The Netherlands.

Alaman, a 59-year-old bus driver who left Albania a month ago and is waiting to apply for asylum, is staying in a sports hall in the town of Tilburg.

“In Albania, there is no work, no education, no future. There is a lot of corruption and the government does not do anything for us,” he said.

“I could not pay my bills and my children could not go to school any longer,” he added.

Alaman told BIRN that Tilburg was the seventh location where he had been placed, and he had no clue when the Dutch authorities would start the six-month application process.

Alaman said he was worried about his children, who are not attending school due to their pending request for asylum.

In the same hall in Tilburg, Tony, 30, said he was tired of being continuously moved from one asylum location to another.

“I am tired, and so are my small children,” he said. “I want an answer about whether I can stay or not as quickly as possible.

“Nobody tells us anything, we just want to know what will happen,” he added



Does this relate to the article from the Financial Times about Belgium to which Laberia provided a link or are you merely pointing out that Albanians are also asylum seekers?

bicicleur
07-04-16, 21:22
http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/hour-of-reckoning-how-islamic-state-exploited-belgiums-status-of-being-worlds-richest-failed-state/articleshow/51537209.cms

the article is quite suggestive and I don't share its analyses about the causes of ghetoising and 'alienation'

furthermore I fail to see how it explains your comment above

LeBrok
08-04-16, 05:17
Does this relate to the article from the Financial Times about Belgium to which Laberia provided a link or are you merely pointing out that Albanians are also asylum seekers?I think he is Macedonian looking for any occasion do demean Albanians.

LeBrok
08-04-16, 05:36
In order to "stop them" detention centers were needed, not "camps". As long as someone is clear about it I don't have a problem with this view. The term "camps" is vague.
If they didn't have "proper" papers, that means that Austria and Hungary let them into their countries without proper papers also. I agree, Greece would need to do drastic unilateral changes in migration policies, build detention camps and enroll all military to guard the coast and borders. It would cost a big amount of euros, which Greece didn't have. In site of inept and not caring EU why would Greece do such effort, if all migrants will leave Greece for Germany. Not many Greeks like Germans anyway after recent economic reforms.
However Greece, being in front of Syrian affair should have shown more initiative (to my liking), engaged EU with ideas and solutions, "force" EU to send support and financial help. I might be missing some information, watching mostly Canadian and BBC news, but Greece looked more like a victim, not to say enabler, being 100% open for immigrants and "sending" them to Germany for enjoyment of many Greeks.

Milan
08-04-16, 17:22
When it come to the refugees i just saw this video from the border in Greece posted on 30.March,but i don't think that this is very appropriate behavior,when tear gas was used last months in R.Macedonia due to same reasons many news agencies were making drama out of it,should our police be beaten up? then the president was complaining that his country information on suspected migrants and seized fake passports etc including some of those from Paris bombings are being refused by authorities of leading EU countries,they can't share information with a third country that perhaps is not in Nato/EU.
Greece is in difficult situation here because on the other side there is fence,the same should be done on Greek-Turkey border and the security should be strengthen.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153641237306939/

here is the same but shorter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlvydufYnnQ&nohtml5=False

A. Papadimitriou
08-04-16, 19:21
When it come to the refugees i just saw this video from the border in Greece posted on 30.March,but i don't think that this is very appropriate behavior,when tear gas was used last months in R.Macedonia due to same reasons many news agencies were making drama out of it,should our police be beaten up? then the president was complaining that his country information on suspected migrants and seized fake passports etc including some of those from Paris bombings are being refused by authorities of leading EU countries,they can't share information with a third country that perhaps is not in Nato/EU.
Greece is in difficult situation here because on the other side there is fence,the same should be done on Greek-Turkey border and the security should be strengthen.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153641237306939/

here is the same but shorter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlvydufYnnQ&nohtml5=False

That incident happened because Greek policemen tried to move a tent of a Syrian woman from somewhere in the train station in Idomeni, she reacted and they arrested her temporarily and some of the people reacted badly. Greek police isn't violent overall and they have orders to approach similar issues without excess of violence. In my opinion the approach is too soft sometimes. Other violent incidents that have happened are due to ethnic tensions between different ethnic groups. For example, Syrians and Afghans don't have the best relations.

Greece has a fence in the land borders with Turkey. Many Middle Eastern and South Asian immigrants came to Greece through Evros, Thrace in the past.
But when they come through the sea ,if they are about to be drown and their life is endangered Greece is obliged to save them. The same is true about Italy. But the people from Syria, Iraq etc are more likely to try to pass through Greece due to the geographical proximity.

The newcomers are detained now. If they make asylum claim they will stay in Greece until their claim is processed. I believe a large number of Syrians will get asylum but since Turkey is considered a "safe country" many of the claims will be rejected. The Greek asylum agency is understaffed and not prepared for high numbers of applications. That should be a problem but not the end of the world.

Closing the borders was right. The new arrivals are reduced significantly. Without the agreement and closing the Balkan route 2000-3000 people would come daily. Those from counties of South Asia or North Africa return to Turkey.

The 50,000 people who came before the EU agreement with Turkey will stay in Greece for a long time. Handling the situation will not be easy but the number is not that big. The problem with those in Idomeni is that they continue to hope that the borders will open sometime and don't want to go in the open camps which are build in other locations. And some of them may try to pass illegaly to other Balkan countries.

@LeBrok
The decison about the ~50,000 people who came before the agreement and didn't manage to pass in other countries is that they will stay in open camps. The problem is that a large number of them is now in the port of Piraeus and the borders in Idomeni, they don't trust the authorities, they fear that the situation in camps will not be good, they continue to think that borders might open someday and some believe that it's possible to find a way to pass illegaly.

There are detention centres now in some islands in Eastern Aegean for the newcomers as I said. Possible problems might arise about the capacity of these centres. But the number of arrivals is significantly reduced already. Greece will need the help of EU about the processing of asylum claims. That's part of the agreement as far as I know but it will take some time.

Milan
08-04-16, 20:55
That incident happened because Greek policemen tried to move a tent of a Syrian woman from somewhere in the train station in Idomeni, she reacted and they arrested her temporarily and some of the people reacted badly. Greek police isn't violent overall and they have orders to approach similar issues without excess of violence. In my opinion the approach is too soft sometimes. Other violent incidents that have happened are due to ethnic tensions between different ethnic groups. For example, Syrians and Afghans don't have the best relations.

Greece has a fence in the land borders with Turkey. Many Middle Eastern and South Asian immigrants came to Greece through Evros, Thrace in the past.
But when they come through the sea ,if they are about to be drown and their life is endangered Greece is obliged to save them. The same is true about Italy. But the people from Syria, Iraq etc are more likely to try to pass through Greece due to the geographical proximity.

The newcomers are detained now. If they make asylum claim they will stay in Greece until their claim is processed. I believe a large number of Syrians will get asylum but since Turkey is considered a "safe country" many of the claims will be rejected. The Greek asylum agency is understaffed and not prepared for high numbers of applications. That should be a problem but not the end of the world.

Closing the borders was right. The new arrivals are reduced significantly. Without the agreement and closing the Balkan route 2000-3000 people would come daily. Those from counties of South Asia or North Africa return to Turkey.

The 50,000 people who came before the EU agreement with Turkey will stay in Greece for a long time. Handling the situation will not be easy but the number is not that big. The problem with those in Idomeni is that they continue to hope that the borders will open sometime and don't want to go in the open camps which are build in other locations. And some of them may try to pass illegaly to other Balkan countries.


Thanks for clearing that out,but this kind of incidents are not happening for the first time,while on the other side they were attempting to cross the border illegally and with force,of course the Police will react no matter who it is.
I know the hostilities between the various groups,they are all jealous to Syrians cause they are allowed to cross many time fight occur for documents etc some Syrians were complaining they are robbed by Afghanis and other groups while on route,there are fights between various groups indeed.
They all wanna go in Western Europe,very little of them almost none request asylum in Balkan countries.
I do not follow much of this migration crisis events,apart that almost all of them cross trough my country,but i don't even see them,only once i have seen large group moving on foot nearby the city,the one that are allowed to cross are loaded on trains.

Yetos
08-04-16, 21:25
Not many Greeks like Germans anyway after recent economic reforms.


No many Greeks like Germans, especially here at north,
Greeks do not like German policies from 1900 till now,

Yetos
08-04-16, 21:31
strange isn't it

they do not have to eat, they protest. close the roads, they stop the railway that connects EU with Greece, etc etc,

but they build a monsk to pray, in less than 30 days that are at eidomene
and they also carry their priests with them


http://www.enikos.gr/images/resized/590_7a62fd6587df8f4291fe996e5ef1b223.jpg


and

http://www.enikos.gr/data/photos/ae00a2008ef34978bf349b3fef9b7ee8.jpg


but none of them wants to go to Bosnia or Albania/kossovo, neither return to Turkey,


they also build merchant tents were they sell food

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pd2kO_f6gpc/VwbfDuNodQI/AAAAAAAEZM0/p6OyalquqJ0ejRKFhe-95dBLmJol52NVw/s640/17719764.jpg


and these guys are Europeans that declare solidarity, a kind of none govermantal organisation, (not Greeks, they came from other corners of EU)
that say stories and guide the refugges and immigrants to activism,
they even used violance agaist local farmers,

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dCbcys3QVJ8/VwbfEGBa97I/AAAAAAAEZM4/3Ww95K6URDYgBaRiXnpH73Ke_qMPROOEw/s1600/4r3wfe_2.jpg


and some tell me, that is not organized?
come on,
it is a clear plan and organised march,

DejaVu
08-04-16, 22:46
strange isn't it

they do not have to eat, they protest. close the roads, they stop the railway that connects EU with Greece, etc etc,

but they build a monsk to pray, in less than 30 days that are at eidomene
and they also carry their priests with them


http://www.enikos.gr/images/resized/590_7a62fd6587df8f4291fe996e5ef1b223.jpg


and

http://www.enikos.gr/data/photos/ae00a2008ef34978bf349b3fef9b7ee8.jpg


but none of them wants to go to Bosnia or Albania/kossovo, neither return to Turkey,


they also build merchant tents were they sell food

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pd2kO_f6gpc/VwbfDuNodQI/AAAAAAAEZM0/p6OyalquqJ0ejRKFhe-95dBLmJol52NVw/s640/17719764.jpg


and these guys are Europeans that declare solidarity, a kind of none govermantal organisation, (not Greeks, they came from other corners of EU)
that say stories and guide the refugges and immigrants to activism,
they even used violance agaist local farmers,

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dCbcys3QVJ8/VwbfEGBa97I/AAAAAAAEZM4/3Ww95K6URDYgBaRiXnpH73Ke_qMPROOEw/s1600/4r3wfe_2.jpg


and some tell me, that is not organized?
come on,
it is a clear plan and organised march,



This is why they dont want to go back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HmJHfGvrEA

Garrick
09-04-16, 02:13
This is why they dont want to go back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HmJHfGvrEA

Islam has mission, and Muslims want to turn non-Muslims in Muslims.

Other religions are trying to spread too, difference is that Islam is comprehensive and does this in a systematic way.

In: Cooper and Yue, Challenges of Muslim World, 2008

(quote)
Islam is not merely a religion. It is a total and unified way of life, both religious and secular; it is a set of beliefs and a way of worship; it is a vast and integrated system of law; it is a culture and civilization; it is an economic system and way of doing business; it is a policy and method of governance; it is a special sort of society and a way of running a family; it prescribes for inheritance and divorce, dress and etiquette, food and personal hygiene. It is spiritual and human totality, this-worldly and other-worldly. Consequently, religion and politics are the two sides of a single coin in Islam.
(end of quote)

...
Knowledge is key, more you know about matter you'll respond better.

Milan
10-04-16, 20:42
Here is a bit of today's news on refugees and Balkan politics;

Greece condemns Macedonia's use of tear gas, rubber bullets on migrants
By Stoyan Nenov
IDOMENI, Greece (Reuters) - Dozens of migrants and refugees were wounded on Sunday when Macedonian police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at crowds on the Greek side of the border, aid workers said, an act condemned by Greece as "dangerous and deplorable".


More than 10,000 migrants and refugees have been stranded at the Greek border outpost of Idomeni since February after a cascade of border shutdowns across the Balkans closed off their route to central and western Europe.


An earlier attempt by a large group of migrants to cross the border fence had resulted in the confrontation, a Macedonian official said.


Greece said police on the Macedonian side of their joint frontier used teargas, rubber bullets and stun grenades to push back the migrants. Macedonian authorities would only confirm they used teargas.


A deputy field coordinator with medical charity Medicins Sans Frontieres (MSF) told Reuters that of around 300 people treated, more than 30 had wounds caused by rubber bullets.


There were many women and children who had respiratory problems from teargas exposure, he said.


Police in Skopje said three officers were also hurt.


More than a million people fleeing conflict poured into Europe mainly through Greece in the past year. The European Union is implementing an accord under which all new arrivals to Greece will be sent back to Turkey if they do not meet asylum criteria.


A Macedonian official who asked to remain anonymous said that a large group of migrants left Idomeni camp on Sunday morning and stormed toward the fence.


"They threw rocks at the Macedonian police. The police fired tear gas in response," the official said.


"The migrants were pushing against the fence but standing on the Greek side of the border. The fence is still there, they have not broken through."


Reuters witnesses said a small group of migrants attempted to talk to Macedonian border guards, asking for them to open the border. After given a negative response, they and other migrants started walking toward the fence.


Macedonian police fired teargas, and some migrants hurled back some gas cannisters and rocks, they said.


"INDISCRIMINATE FORCE"


In an unusually strong statement, George Kyritsis, a spokesman for migration coordinators in the Greek government, said the use of force was unacceptable.


"The indiscriminate use of chemicals, rubber bullets and stun grenades against vulnerable populations, and particularly without reasons for such force, is a dangerous and deplorable act," Kyritsis said.


More than 50,000 refugees and migrants are stranded in Greece as a result of the border shutdowns. By Sunday morning, there were more than 11,200 people at Idomeni.


"We urge the authorities of FYROM to comprehend the potential risks the use of violence against refugees and migrants entails," said Kyritsis, referring to the official title of the neighboring country, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.


Athens has long refused to accept its neighbor as just 'Macedonia'. Some Greeks fear accepting 'Macedonia' could provide a basis for territorial claims by that country on a northern Greek province of the same name.


A Macedonian police spokesman said the situation at the border was under control but still tense, he added.


Achilleas Tzemos, MSF deputy field coordinator, told Reuters more than 300 people had been treated at the makeshift camp.


In addition to more than 30 treated for rubber bullet wounds, more than 30 had open wounds, and 200 had respiratory problems from teargas exposure. "Among those with breathing difficulties there were quite a few women and children," he said.


Greek authorities have been trying to convince the population to move to reception camps, but migrants have been refusing to move.


(Additional reporting By Renee Maltezou, Kole Casule, Ayat Basma and Sergiy Karazy; Writing by Michele Kambas; Editing by Raissa Kasolowsky)

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa5AgufPa2E&nohtml5=False

Here is another where they throw rocks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBQtbODSOgw&nohtml5=False

LeBrok
10-04-16, 21:04
Sad as it is, did someone informed these refugees to go back to official refugee camps and wait for proper processing? They should do it the right and legal way.

bicicleur
10-04-16, 21:10
so the Greek authorities fail to keep this group of immigrants under control and then critisize the actions of the Macedonian border police

Yetos
10-04-16, 21:22
@ Milan

strange news you give,

from yesterday all 'solidarity organisations' and non govermental organisations spread pappers and rumors that borders will open,
refuggees and immigrants gather to see the borders to open,
and at middle of the day 500 march to 'open the borders, using tolls,

Fyrom police use typical police weapons like chemicals and bombs and rubber bullets,
people started to return, but Fyrom police continue throwing chemicals this time inside Greek territory,
and that causes a bigger problem, cause many of refugges were hitten by chmicals and rubber bullets inside Greece, not inside Fyrom,
and the subject now is leaving from protect the borders and turns to attack at foreign borders.


IT WAS ONLY 500 MEN AND FROM THEM 100 WERE ANARCHISTS and ULTRAS FROM ALL OVER EUROPE.


you can see at photo

http://news247.gr/eidiseis/article4000675.ece/BINARY/w660/Untitled+1.jpg

that the usage was not neutral zone, neither at Fyrom sauvereign, but they shoot inside Greece.

Yetos
10-04-16, 21:26
Sad as it is, did someone informed these refugees to go back to official refugee camps and wait for proper processing? They should do it the right and legal way.

are kidding? there is official news in Greece at arab language to inform them,

but when you have only at Eidomene, 2-3 000 Europeans that declare solidarity, and quide them the oposite what do you expect,

it is an organised march by some European non govermental organisations.

besides only the time is good enough to turn the discuss away from other European govermental problems,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V07jCl3iKo

sorry but something is going on with links

Garrick
10-04-16, 21:34
so the Greek authorities fail to keep this group of immigrants under control and then critisize the actions of the Macedonian border police

It is not only Greek problem, or any country individually.

It is European problem, and EU can solve the problem, in the best interest of Europe.

For this is necessary European unity, determination and strong leadership.

Yetos
10-04-16, 21:34
so the Greek authorities fail to keep this group of immigrants under control and then critisize the actions of the Macedonian border police


semi yes semi no

Greeks prepaired many camps,
but refuggees and immigrants destroy them in purpose,
they do not accept help from Greeks authorities, only by the 'solidarity'
some times they deny the food that red cross is serving,
AT CHIOS ISLAND THEY DESTROY THE CAMP. NAD THEY WENT TO PORT, NAD CREATE 2 CAMPS cause they have inner fight, AND PUT THE FENCEES OF THE DESTROYED CAMP,!!!!! to protect each group from the other!!!!!

they leave the camps cause every day rumors are spread that borders will open,

Greece accuses Fyrom not for using chemiclas and rubber bullets, but using them inside Greek teritory


because I live at North Greece only in my municipal 8 000 places are placed,
but only 600 live at sunday's and about 3000 at mid of the week (they come to rest, wash etc) and move back to border

DejaVu
10-04-16, 21:39
semi yes semi no

Greeks prepaired many camps,
but refuggees and immigrants destroy them in purpose,
they do not accept help from Greeks authorities, only by the 'solidarity'
some times they deny the food that red cross is serving,
they leave the camps cause every day rumors are spread that borders will open,

Greece accuses Fyrom not for using chemiclas or rubber bullets, but using them inside Greek teritory

It is at the center of Macedonian territory :)
http://basementgeographer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/500px-Macedonia_overview.svg_.png
http://orig15.deviantart.net/fb29/f/2010/340/8/5/8531d81357b724842818e21bd8dbffaf-d1154jh.jpg

Milan
10-04-16, 21:41
@ Milan

strange news you give,

from yesterday all 'solidarity organisations' and non govermental organisations spread pappers and rumors that borders will open,
refuggees and immigrants gather to see the borders to open,
and at middle of the day 500 march to 'open the borders, using tolls,

Fyrom police use typical police weapons like chemicals and bombs and rubber bullets,
people started to return, but Fyrom police continue throwing chemicals this time inside Greek territory,
and that causes a bigger problem, cause many of refugges were hitten by chmicals and rubber bullets inside Greece, not inside Fyrom,
and the subject now is leaving from protect the borders and turns to attack at foreign borders.


IT WAS ONLY 500 MEN AND FROM THEM 100 WERE ANARCHISTS and ULTRAS FROM ALL OVER EUROPE.
Yetos
That is what i could find,but above all i think the problem is cooperation between both sides.
They should let politics alone and deal with the problem like professionals,what non governmental organization are doing i do not know,
This is not first time using violence against the Police and try to enter by force,whether anyone guide them i don't know either,but if they enter on the other side they should chase them around the fields as they did many times.
I would personally never dare to walk illegally in other country,the border guards have rights to shoot,but this drama is much different.

Garrick
10-04-16, 21:56
Yetos
That is what i could find,but above all i think the problem is cooperation between both sides.
They should let politics alone and deal with the problem like professionals,what non governmental organization are doing i do not know,
This is not first time using violence against the Police and try to enter by force,whether anyone guide them i don't know either,but if they enter on the other side they should chase them around the fields as they did many times.
I would personally never dare to walk illegally in other country,the border guards have rights to shoot,but this drama is much different.

But two or more countries (Greece, Macedonia etc...) cannot solve this problem because it exceeds their capacities.

Only Europe can, but for start we should know what Europe wants.

If Europe wants to receive all the migrants from Northern Africa and western Asia, than transit countries have no option but to pass all migrants.

If Europe doesn't want uncontrolled entrance of hundreds of thousands/million migrants than Europe must do something.

Garrick
10-04-16, 22:00
It is at the center of Macedonian territory :)

DejaVu, please, this is not thread for ancient bickering, about ancient Macedonia there are more threads.

DejaVu
10-04-16, 22:04
DejaVu, please, this is not thread for ancient bickering, about ancient Macedonia there are more threads.

This thread is about the Terrorist attacks inside Brussels airport and metro (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32145-Terrorist-attacks-inside-Brussels-airport-and-metro) not about refugees you continue to respond about.
Use of the name FYROM will be retaliation.

LABERIA
10-04-16, 22:16
This thread is about the Terrorist attacks inside Brussels airport and metro (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32145-Terrorist-attacks-inside-Brussels-airport-and-metro) not about refugees you continue to respond about.
Use of the name FYROM will be retaliation.

The only off-topic here are you fyromski.

DejaVu
10-04-16, 22:27
The only off-topic here are you fyromski.

Shqiptar why dont the refugees pass thru Shqiperia? Or you take their place as undercover refugees?


Rise in Albanian Asylum Seekers Worries Dutch
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/rise-in-albanian-asylum-seekers-worries-dutch-04-05-2016-1
"The ministry said that Albanians now rank first in the overall number of asylum requests."

LABERIA
10-04-16, 22:33
Shqiptar why dont the refugees pass thru Shqiperia? Or you take their place as undercover refugees?


Rise in Albanian Asylum Seekers Worries Dutch
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/rise-in-albanian-asylum-seekers-worries-dutch-04-05-2016-1
"The ministry said that Albanians now rank first in the overall number of asylum requests."

One day we have to meet the Bulgarians and discuss seriously. I like the Bulgarians. I am sure that can be found a fair solution.

DejaVu
10-04-16, 22:36
One day we have to meet the Bulgarians and discuss seriously. I like the Bulgarians. I am sure that can be found a fair solution.

Dont worry the middle east welcomes you with open hands when you are ready to leave.

LABERIA
10-04-16, 22:43
Dont worry the middle east welcomes you with open hands when you are ready to leave.

hahahahahahahah
Enjoy it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-wRtDztuCA

Milan
10-04-16, 23:05
But two or more countries (Greece, Macedonia etc...) cannot solve this problem because it exceeds their capacities.

Only Europe can, but for start we should know what Europe wants.

If Europe wants to receive all the migrants from Northern Africa and western Asia, than transit countries have no option but to pass all migrants.

If Europe doesn't want uncontrolled entrance of hundreds of thousands/million migrants than Europe must do something.
Yes that is true.
I don't know the Chinese want to build the next silk road trough same way the immigrants are walking now (to add some humor)Balkan corridor, the above is boring.
I saw on news they bought the Piraeus port in Greece.

Yetos
10-04-16, 23:47
ok

I could post the photos were FYROM police is tresspassing Greek sauvereign,

but I can link this video, min 1:27 you can see Fyrom police destroy the fence and enter Greece to shoot,

they also drop chemicals at 'medicins sans frontier' tents

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW14A8XJxc8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW14A8XJxc8


ALL THE ABOVE IS TO AVOID MISSINFORMATION AND MISSUNDERSTANDINGS,

I do not see 10 000 people, only few activists, and some of them are not even refuggees,

A TYPICAL SUNDAY AT EIDOMENI, LIKE THE PREVIOUS ONE.

@ Deja vu
I believe you are smart enough to avoid that talk,
at 3-5 May I will be at Doirane acomodated by some nice people there, and then I will go a trip further north, maybe Nis or Sofia,
if you want come to drink a beer or a coffee,
Makedonians do not bite,

Yetos
10-04-16, 23:57
another video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcb9AZAJS9E


AS YOU SEE IT IS JUST AN ACT, AN ACTIVISM PRODUCED BY SOME WHO PROMISE OR QUIDE THE REFUGGEES TO ACT SUCH INFRONT OF MEDIA,
A SET UP WAR FOR MEDIA , BUT STILL I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHY????

Milan
11-04-16, 00:01
ok

I could post the photos were FYROM police is tresspassing Greek sauvereign,

but I can link this video, min 1:27 you can see Fyrom police destroy the fence and enter Greece to shoot,

they also drop chemicals at 'medicins sans frontier' tents



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW14A8XJxc8


ALL THE ABOVE IS TO AVOID MISSINFORMATION AND MISSUNDERSTANDINGS,


[email protected]
I posted this about migrants,aprox what was going on today not to argue.
I again say better cooperation is needed,the other side complain that the Greek police do nothing to stop them,so this is endless.

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:02
Those who know Arabic they can read

the video is about the propaganda given by foreign and maybe also local organisation AGENTS who spread rumors,

watch it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHjPnw-qZF0&amp;nohtml5=False


AS YOU SEE THEY DO NOT HEAR ANY OTHER VOICE< ONLY THE VOICE OF SOME 'SOLIDARITY' ORGANISATIONS

at the end you can see that locals have already bought guns to protect their houses.

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:10
At this video at 1:45 you can see Greek police informing them that borders are closed, and they should return at legal and organized camps,
but as you see they attacked Greek police forces,

BUT THEY WERE INFORMED, AND THEY ACT FOR MEDIA, HEARING THE 'UNKNOWN' VOICES THAT CALLS THEM TO PASS,

<strong>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpTq6fnmfE4&amp;nohtml5=False

Milan
11-04-16, 00:13
Those who know Arabic they can read

the video is about the propaganda given by foreign and maybe also local organisation AGENTS who spread rumors,

watch it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHjPnw-qZF0&amp;nohtml5=False


AS YOU SEE THEY DO NOT HEAR ANY OTHER VOICE< ONLY THE VOICE OF SOME 'SOLIDARITY' ORGANISATIONS

at the end you can see that locals have already bought guns to protect their houses.
There was people that transported them illegals for money from local population in Balkans but many were jailed so this stop.. perhaps you know more since they are more in your region.

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:25
ok wanna also see what is going happening at Peiraius port?
or at Islands?

At peiraus they camp to port, and they deny to leave,
more worse, they slain each other, Morrocans vs Arabs vs Afanistanis vs Syrrians etc,

But still I believe that is not policy,
as EUROPE WE MUST
1) SAVE THEM, CAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN SOULS,
2) CHANGE OUR MIGRATION POLICIES
3)ACCEPT FEW MONTHS SO TO FIND WHO IS BEHIND THAT PUSHES THEM TO EUROPE
4) TEACH THEM WHAT WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SAVED BY THEIR GOD OR THEIR WAY OF LIFE, AND THAT THEY MUST RESPECT THE DIFFERENT
5) CREATE SAFETY TO THEIR HOMELANDS AND RETURN THEM THERE.

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:33
[email protected]
I posted this about migrants,aprox what was going on today not to argue.
I again say better cooperation is needed,the other side complain that the Greek police do nothing to stop them,so this is endless.

@ Milan
I believe you understand now what happened today at Eidomene.
I also believe that you realise what is behind that march,
anyway, if some wanted we might had a strong fight when Fyrom police tresspass the borders and shoot at Greek sauvereign
YET that did not happened,
only a diplomatic protest, as fits to our civilizations.

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:39
AS you can at video at 1:22 some anarcho-left who declare solidarity, from Greece and all over Europe are pushing them to protest and prevent to riots


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_22q-R_vM


today at Athens and Peiraius there were 3 demonstrations,
1) for unemployment, they started from Patra and reach Athens today,
2) a solidarity for immigrants among which there were 100 Deutsch left-ultras
3) an against imigration policy by Golden dawn with participation of 500 Francais from Lepen's party

Yetos
11-04-16, 00:56
and finally

watch the bellow to understand how this 'organisations' work

you can see the plates of the car, which are over timed, expired at 28/03 yet still in traffic for belong to a foreign (non Greek) organisation for refugee solidarity


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXXan1uZJcA&amp;ebc=ANyPxKrDvUV026Yhh02ZkAQA1v 0_X_eO5iC9vxGfJNnsWidynIh3FE9uDkAqVVFpOZRxnAZZTQoC XgH3ytRVAnJ_5LdQOVE1Cw&amp;nohtml5=False

Yetos
11-04-16, 01:09
There was people that transported them illegals for money from local population in Balkans but many were jailed so this stop.. perhaps you know more since they are more in your region.


at balkans we all have have more guns than Iesralites have at their houses, :laughing:

simply we buy new and modern :cool-v:

we all expect the big boom at balkans :innocent::innocent:

Yetos
11-04-16, 01:28
@ Milan

you are smart enough,

Jihad is already at Balkans, as also in Europe,
through immigration secret services play dangerous games,
Jihadists are using immigrants to enter Europe,
and Euroepan secret services use them also to find Jihadists,

Le mond made a big mistake declaring in public the passage of one terrorist,
that pushed arresting jihadists at Norway and Italy, while they already 'watching them' but lost a circle, a link,

Garrick
11-04-16, 02:11
But still I believe that is not policy,
as EUROPE WE MUST
1) SAVE THEM, CAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN SOULS,
2) CHANGE OUR MIGRATION POLICIES
3)ACCEPT FEW MONTHS SO TO FIND WHO IS BEHIND THAT PUSHES THEM TO EUROPE
4) TEACH THEM WHAT WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SAVED BY THEIR GOD OR THEIR WAY OF LIFE, AND THAT THEY MUST RESPECT THE DIFFERENT
5) CREATE SAFETY TO THEIR HOMELANDS AND RETURN THEM THERE.

You've earned a reputation.

And while many in Europe still is not clear what happens, people in the Balkans through several centuries of experience have learned to recognize the essence when it comes to things like this.

bicicleur
11-04-16, 16:14
for those who think radicalisation is a specific problem in Belgium/France :

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/22/polling-muslims-in-the-west-increasingly-sympathise-with-extremism-terror/

Despite the fact (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/19/no-rise-in-anti-muslim-sentiment-in-uk-after-paris-attacks-poll) that “Islamophobia” did not rise after the Paris Attacks, there remains a grievance industry across the Western world which targets young Muslims especially, urging them to feel victimised by Western governments for taking a stance against Islamism – and scarcely a tough stance at that.

Yetos
12-04-16, 07:03
@ Milan

you are smart enough,

Jihad is already at Balkans, as also in Europe,
through immigration secret services play dangerous games,
Jihadists are using immigrants to enter Europe,
and Euroepan secret services use them also to find Jihadists,

Le mond made a big mistake declaring in public the passage of one terrorist,
that pushed arresting jihadists at Norway and Italy, while they already 'watching them' but lost a circle, a link,


I quote my shelf,

as we see , Germany arrested the ibrahim Al .... a known Haleppo 'thief and smuggler' who kill for money,
he was among refuggees pretending a victim of war,
same case was also the case of Leros with the terrorist attack,
simply due to fast anouncement they had to stop operation to observe jow DAESH recruit members,
they arrested only 4 recruiters 2 at Norway 2 at Italy,at Skopjie they also arrested an imam that had recruit 28 DAESh fighters,

as you see although late enough, EU countries secret services started to see and work different,
At last.

Anyway interesting case is that Greek police areested 60 persons with EU id card which declare solidarity but cause trouble,
they are Greeks Germans Italians Spanish British,
I hope even slowly and after time to find who is behind the slavemerchats, and punish them.

strange think!!
they all sleep at night at Eygeli Gevgelia casino, and at day time they enter Greece to give instructions to refuggees!!!!!!
meaning all night they discuss and next day try to do what they decide,
without that meaning that they accept instructions from the casinos

bicicleur
12-04-16, 11:05
activists in Greece near Idomeni spread false rumours trying to create riots at the borders, and then they accuse the border police of 'unproportional violence'
what hipocrisy

http://archyworldys.com/unknown-spreading-rumors-about-border-opening-in-idomeni/

gyms
12-04-16, 16:59
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-matter-controversial-tweet-1.3523055

The Black Lives Matter Toronto group has come under fire over a tweet by one of its co-founders.
On Feb. 9, Yusra Khogali tweeted, "Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today. Plz plz plz," according to Newstalk 1010.

Garrick
13-04-16, 15:53
for those who think radicalisation is a specific problem in Belgium/France :

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/22/polling-muslims-in-the-west-increasingly-sympathise-with-extremism-terror/

Despite the fact (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/19/no-rise-in-anti-muslim-sentiment-in-uk-after-paris-attacks-poll) that “Islamophobia” did not rise after the Paris Attacks, there remains a grievance industry across the Western world which targets young Muslims especially, urging them to feel victimised by Western governments for taking a stance against Islamism – and scarcely a tough stance at that.

Two behaviors non-Muslims towards Muslims are wrong.

First is islamophobia. Muslims are human beings and therefore they need respect as well as all other people in the world.

Second is dhimmi attitude. Originally dhimmi is the term used for Christians, Jews and Sabians as citizens of the Islamic state. Their existence is permitted in Islamic state but dhimmis subject to special laws than laws which is applicable to Muslims.

Today dhimmi is a term that means that non-Muslims accept Muslim supremacy.

Politicians on left side on spectrum sometimes tend to have dhimmi attitudes. Extremely politicians of right wings sometimes show islamophobia.

But it is not easy to accomplish zone, between, on the one hand phobia toward Muslims what is wrong, and in the second entering in the dhimmi status which is also wrong.

Right attitude and behaviors requires knowledge, discipline and practice, and respect for own culture and civilization.

gyms
13-04-16, 16:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8rZTuGfZo

bicicleur
14-04-16, 12:40
Two behaviors non-Muslims towards Muslims are wrong.

First is islamophobia. Muslims are human beings and therefore they need respect as well as all other people in the world.

Second is dhimmi attitude. Originally dhimmi is the term used for Christians, Jews and Sabians as citizens of the Islamic state. Their existence is permitted in Islamic state but dhimmis subject to special laws than laws which is applicable to Muslims.

Today dhimmi is a term that means that non-Muslims accept Muslim supremacy.

Politicians on left side on spectrum sometimes tend to have dhimmi attitudes. Extremely politicians of right wings sometimes show islamophobia.

But it is not easy to accomplish zone, between, on the one hand phobia toward Muslims what is wrong, and in the second entering in the dhimmi status which is also wrong.

Right attitude and behaviors requires knowledge, discipline and practice, and respect for own culture and civilization.

attitude here in western Europe was that we should accomodate these people and respect their 'culture'
which meant we didn't demand from them to subscribe our western values

a big mistake which has done a lot of dammage

Garrick
14-04-16, 23:00
attitude here in western Europe was that we should accomodate these people and respect their 'culture'
which meant we didn't demand from them to subscribe our western values

a big mistake which has done a lot of dammage

Reputable American strategist George Friedman 'maybe read our discussion'.

Interesting text about Islam, Secularism and Christianity in Europe.

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/europe-islam-and-radical-secularism/

(quote)
Secularism is a young religion in a way, and has not yet learned to carry political power gracefully. This places it on the intellectual defensive against Islam in a way that Christianity wasn’t. Christianity understood Islam in a way that secularism can’t. Christians and Muslims were enemies over the centuries. Secularism is both respectful of Islam and outraged at its values. In fighting a complex enemy, it is best to have elegantly consistent beliefs.

When I go to Europe, I speak for the most part to secularists (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/letter-from-amsterdam/), many of whom despise the increasing anti-secular sensibility of the European right, its xenophobia and its repressiveness. Having done that, the secularists must find a way to come to grips with Islam, which shares these traits unapologetically with the right. Yet, they do not wish to be seen as xenophobic and repressive. There is no simple solution for the political problem at the core of Europe. Europe is secular. Secularism has many virtues. Being effective in defining an enemy is not one of them. Secularism has not yet mastered its contradictions. Nor, I expect, will I be able to persuade secularists of these contradictions.
(end of quote)

Angela
14-04-16, 23:44
Reputable American strategist George Friedman 'maybe read our discussion'.

Interesting text about Islam, Secularism and Christianity in Europe.

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/europe-islam-and-radical-secularism/

(quote)
Secularism is a young religion in a way, and has not yet learned to carry political power gracefully. This places it on the intellectual defensive against Islam in a way that Christianity wasn’t. Christianity understood Islam in a way that secularism can’t. Christians and Muslims were enemies over the centuries. Secularism is both respectful of Islam and outraged at its values. In fighting a complex enemy, it is best to have elegantly consistent beliefs.

When I go to Europe, I speak for the most part to secularists (https://geopoliticalfutures.com/letter-from-amsterdam/), many of whom despise the increasing anti-secular sensibility of the European right, its xenophobia and its repressiveness. Having done that, the secularists must find a way to come to grips with Islam, which shares these traits unapologetically with the right. Yet, they do not wish to be seen as xenophobic and repressive. There is no simple solution for the political problem at the core of Europe. Europe is secular. Secularism has many virtues. Being effective in defining an enemy is not one of them. Secularism has not yet mastered its contradictions. Nor, I expect, will I be able to persuade secularists of these contradictions.
(end of quote)

Where, other than in countries that used to be behind the Iron Curtain, do we find right wing anti-immigrant parties that overtly promote traditional Christianity? I know Lega Nord people, and I've spoken to Le Pen supporters, and none of them are observant or even believers in a general sense. In my area of Italy, at least, the churches are museums. Other than older men and women there's no one there, and the priests and nuns come from India or Africa. France is even more extreme. I find it difficult to believe that all the people who vote for these parties in Italy and France are observant Catholics. Perhaps he's talking about really fringe groups?

In my view, most continental Europeans are left wing socialists who want a nanny state. It's just that some are nationalistic and anti-immigrant and some aren't.

I do agree with his general point, however. It's very difficult to combat such certainty with the everything is relative pablum that passes for western thought in this day and age.

mr_y82
02-06-16, 05:25
mostly @ LeBrok, but relevant to earlier conversation... this is more the Canadian/US experience (well "Americans" who have a strong grasp on reality, not everyone will agree)...

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/skmxbz/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-exclusive---prime-minister-justin-trudeau-welcomes-syrian-refugees-to-canada

...notable quote from the video, lol..."We don't blame all Americans for Donald Trump." (totally unrelated to the refugee situation)...

bicicleur
02-06-16, 08:10
mostly @ LeBrok, but relevant to earlier conversation... this is more the Canadian/US experience (well "Americans" who have a strong grasp on reality, not everyone will agree)...

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/skmxbz/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-exclusive---prime-minister-justin-trudeau-welcomes-syrian-refugees-to-canada

...notable quote from the video, lol..."We don't blame all Americans for Donald Trump." (totally unrelated to the refugee situation)...

25000 well-screened refugees in Canada and panick in the US ?
are you kidding ?
a million arrived in Europe last year, unscreened

mr_y82
09-06-16, 18:58
We love our fear in the US.

Dinarid
09-06-16, 19:11
More news about the Religion of Peace that shows it to be the exact opposite. Can anyone here seriously be in favor of letting more of them in?!?!

LeBrok
10-06-16, 02:38
We love our fear in the US.It wouldn't be that bad. Unfortunately, all world is hooked on it these days!!!

LeBrok
10-06-16, 02:39
More news about the Religion of Peace that shows it to be the exact opposite. Can anyone here seriously be in favor of letting more of them in?!?! Yes, we did, 23 thousand more in Canada. Very nice people. I have a friend Gus, muslim from Bosnia. We get along fine, but neither one of us is very religious.

Dinarid
13-06-16, 09:06
Yes, we did, 23 thousand more in Canada. Very nice people. I have a friend Gus, muslim from Bosnia. We get along fine, but neither one of us is very religious.
Bosnians aren't as religious. 23 thousand is small compared to 100 thousands in Europe but in my opinion is still a bad idea.

mr_y82
23-06-16, 23:07
I feel for the Iraqi forces battling ISIS... Respect to them for all their sacrifices in and around Fallujah... Divided we fall...