PDA

View Full Version : 9000 years old neolithic bones discovered in Kurdistan, Zagros Mountains!



Goga
04-04-16, 01:35
" New archeological discovery in the Kurdistan Region

A team of archeologists has begun digging at a site in the Bestan Sur village. After intensive study, extensive mapping and painstaking digging, the team made a new discovery: agriculture here began more than 9000 years ago .

"This village is older than Charmo. We have discovered that people began to move from cattle farming to agriculture, so agriculture began here in the stone age and ice age," Professor Roger Matthews, an archeologist told Rudaw.

Since 1947 Bestan Sur has been classified as an archeological site.

In Sulaimani there are more than 600 archeological areas. Eight German, French and British teams are searching for new finds.

Bestan Sur is located in the southeast of Sulaimani. Might historians rewrite history just because of new discoveries in Bestan Sur. "


http://rudaw.net/NewsDetails.aspx?pageid=205922

Goga
04-04-16, 01:43
Video inside. Actually that person is saying 7700 - 7600 BC. So, those bones are at least 9600 years old. I hope they are planning to do a DNA test.

LeBrok
04-04-16, 05:54
I hope you noticed that 9kya was after Ice Age. Right? It ended 12kya.
I would be surprised if there was no Neolithic folks at this time, right after Ice Age. They were spreading rather fast.
I also hope for quick DNA test of these old bones. I bet, most will be G2a.

elghund
04-04-16, 07:17
The man in the video clearly stated in the neolithic, New Stone Age, and after the ice age. The writer if the article erred. At least he got the story out there.

More reading regarding the site: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264400781_A_LATE_NEOLITHIC_FISHING_NET_FROM_KURDIS TAN_NORTHERN_IRAQ

Goga
04-04-16, 13:59
Are those modern human bones the oldest farmer/pastoralist bones found to date?

For me it's very interesting because those pastoralists who lived in Kurdistan 9700 years ago could be the ancestors of the proto-proto-proto-Kurds (Iranids).

10000 years ago humans in Kurdistan could be a lot of haplogroups, from G, J1, J2, R1a, R1b, P*, R1*, T etc.
One wave (R1b) went to Africa, one wave (R1a) went to the Steppes, one wave (J1) went to Arabia, one wave (G2a) went to Europe etc.

LeBrok
04-04-16, 16:10
Are those modern human bones the oldest farmer/pastoralist bones found to date?

For me it's very interesting because those pastoralists who lived in Kurdistan 9700 years ago could be the ancestors of the proto-proto-proto-Kurds (Iranids).

10000 years ago humans in Kurdistan could be a lot of haplogroups, from G, J1, J2, R1a, R1b, P*, R1*, T etc.
One wave (R1b) went to Africa, one wave (R1a) went to the Steppes, one wave (J1) went to Arabia, one wave (G2a) went to Europe etc. Sure, they all started from Eden in Zagros, lol. Could you explain why they didn't mix together before expansions? They must have their Y haplo written on their foreheads.

Goga
04-04-16, 16:39
Tribes and clans were divided by the mountains and between the valleys & rivers.

And I'm not saying that they were not mixed.


R1b in Africa came with the farmers. R1* evolved into R1a and R1b somewhere on the Iranian Plateau. Where is ancient farmer R1b in Africa from if it's not from pastoralists from Kurdistan? It has been said that before pastoralist R1b folks migrated into Maykop & then Yamnaya, they migrated into Africa. Could be with T and J1.


Agriculture in the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula is also from Kurdistan. J1 is dominant there. But J1 evolved somewhere in Kurdistan. This means that J1 migrated into the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula from Kurdistan during the Neolithic times. Could be also with T and som R1b & R1a.


Same can be said about R1a. R1a evolved also on the Iranian Plateau as it's R1b cousin. So, a couple of thousands of years ago R1a pastoralists from the Iranian Plateau (Zagros) also migrated into the Steppes.
But, don't forget that there were 2 waves of R1a into the Steppes from the Iranian Plateau. 1: very ancient one with hunter & gatherers and early pastoralists and the 2nd wave via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea into Western Kazakhstan (Steppes). The second wave gave birth to the European R1a-Z280 etc. R1a in Eastern Europe is very recent and mostly from 1 source (not very diverse). At least, it is what the ACADEMIC world is saying.


J2 is also native to Kurdistan. J2 pastoralists from Kurdistan could migrate into Central Mesopotamia, Western Anatolia, Caucasus, Iran, Greece etc.


There's a native NorthWest Asian auDNA all over those place. And that NorthWest Asian auDNA in those places was brought by native West Asian haplogroups, it didn't came out of blue, right?

Goga
04-04-16, 16:41
Sure, they all started from Eden in Zagros, lol.
No it's in Poland! :laughing:

MOESAN
08-04-16, 00:06
Goga, To produce a so extend pannel of Haplo's + numerous subclades needs a very dense population; I see no reason it would be in Kurdistan or in any relatively small region of the world. It needs expansionS and returnS, not an Eden (even in Poland!!!)

Goga
08-04-16, 11:52
Goga, To produce a so extend pannel of Haplo's + numerous subclades needs a very dense population; I see no reason it would be in Kurdistan or in any relatively small region of the world. It needs expansionS and returnS, not an Eden (even in Poland!!!)
Ok. But today in Turkey + Iran + Iraq + Syria the population = 79 mil + 79 mil + 37 mil + 18 mil = at least 213 million people in such a small area. Even after so many genocidal wars...

+ in total there are more than 235 million Iranid race people (Kurds + Persians etc.)

I'm sure, because of the CENTRAL geographical location those areas were always very heavy populated, even in the prehistoric times. It's on the crossroad between Europe, East Asia, Africa etc. In the ancient times all big Empires were surrounded around those areas. In the ancient times it was one of the most populated places in the world, maybe after China, India and Africa. After the ice age, it was much more populated than Europe and the Eurasian Steppes combined. Because of the cold climate and ice Europe and the Steppes were almost not populated at all in the ice age.

MOESAN
08-04-16, 14:53
Goga, I was not clear enough in my post:
need of huge population and spreading at some scale to allow the success of firstly rare mutations (some successive founders effects permettings multiplication and later, multiple pole positionS): the today specific distributions of some important Y-ligneages does not check an evolution in situ, EVEN IN A NUMEROUS POPULATION. My feeling is that the Near-East and close surroundings have been more receptors than donors, even around the 4500/3500 BC. My bet to date.

Goga
08-04-16, 21:16
My feeling is that the Near-East and close surroundings have been more receptors than donors, even around the 4500/3500 BC. My bet to date.
Honestly I don't think so. Why? Because from which areas should those 'donors' come from. From China (East Asia)? Well, there's not much of East Asian DNA in West Asia. From India? There is not much of SouthEast Asian DNA in West Asia. From Africa? There's not much of African DNA in West Asia. From Europe? There is not much of European DNA (auDNA & haplogrops) in West Asia.

But there is West Asian auDNA in much many places outside West Asia.


But there is lots of West Asian auDNA in Northern & Eastern Africa, India, the Steppes and Europe. And West Asia has been always heavy populated to spread outside it's region. And they were advanced enough to do that also. Who was the real donor and who was the receiver? Think about it..

MOESAN
10-04-16, 00:15
I spoke of Proto-historic and Antiquity; sure this region was one of the most populated in Prehistory compared to others and gave a lot around, a lot which differentiated over time, more outside than inside, by the way. But we can also suppose it received already some outside imput (Y-E? East-Africa autosomes? by instance)
+ West-Asia is not specifically "Near-East and (close) surroundings".
Concerning auDNA, your opinion is shared by someones, not by all. And we have to improve the methodologies to analyse auDNA results, I think.
concerning these points, my opinion is only an opinion, and I have not the aim to fight for it, waiting more informations.