PDA

View Full Version : Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)



berun
01-05-16, 20:36
After checking the "archeoDNA" data, I had a mad idea about how IE would have spread. First let's look at the strange fact that the main IE languages are related to R1a (Germanic / Slavic / Baltic with Corded Ware, Indo-Iranic, and Tocharian), which leaves a bunch of regional IE languages out of the schema (Italic, Celtic from the Alpine arch, Venetic, Dacian-Thracian, Illyrian, Armenian, Greek). A more strange thing is how Yamnaya is supposed to have carried R1b to the West while it carried R1a to the North... when itself was 92% R1b (8% I2a2). A more strange fact is the genetical interruption of about 2200 BC, as the previous cultures of the Volga-Urals were mainly R1b; the Potapovka and Sintashta cultures change the results in the area to almost R1a all samples, and looking for this change it seems to come from the mix of the local Samara/Yamnaya/Poltavka (mainly R1b) with the Corded Ware/Fatyonovo/Abashevo (R1a). Of course the actual paradigm says that Yamnaya people or alike colonized Central Europe, but as far as i can see it's the opposite way, at least in Y-DNA.

The mad idea that R1a could be the real carrier of IE seems to be reflected in the fact that R1a Hunter-Gatherers are not in the Volga but in north Russia (samples in Psov, Karelia, Smolensk), and such genetic make-up continues with Corded Ware, and above all, it jusitifies the apparent expansion of R1a to Central Asia, India, Takkla Makan and so on; at least the expansion of IE seems more easy to explain than with Yamnaya but of course i'm not genetist neither an expert of history of such large region.

MOESAN
01-05-16, 21:21
Your hesitations are the mark of some intellectual honesty and of non-dogmatic deportment. Positive points according to me.
That said, I think you cannot link Germanic languages to Corded, not so straightforwards. Not sure so called "Tokharians" were Y-R1a (I avow I don't know for sure)
the Y-R1a dominated I-Eans seem all of them being on the 'satem' side, at first sight, what could show they are second hand I-Eanized people (not proved, I know)

I, and others, think I-Ean expansion and acculturation is not a single eruptive event.

berun
02-05-16, 10:27
Germanic it's already linked to CW, as the extension of such culture includes Slavic and Baltic and such groups are the first to branch with Germanic, so a linguistic drift from a common source is expected; that also goes well with archaeology, as the first agriculturalists were Funnelbeaker with megaliths, but around 2900 BC came CW / Battle Axe culture with metals and kurgans, from such culture derived the Nordic Bronze Age, then the Nordic Iron Age / Jastorf, till appearing the Vikings in the area. Paleogenetics fit well also the case: HG were I2, a Funnelbeaker case was also I2, but then a CW was R1a, in the period of transit between Battle Axe and Bronze Age results were R1a, R1b, I1, as to have in the Nordic Bronze Age two R1b and a I1. As R1b is linked to the west, to western clades and to Bell Beaker, it's difficult to take it as Indoeuropean (but could be an Indoeuropaized BB), the linguistic change to Germanic only can be given for R1a with such data.

For Tocharian it takes very long from the R1a Tarim mummies to the attested Tocharian A and B, but as such languages come from a common Tocharian such old language might be older, and as I don't know of cultural breaks in the region it's to suppose that the carriers of proto-Tocharian were the "mummies".

Theories can be right till they can't dribble more known facts, so let's see how long such idea could go on in my head...

Tomenable
02-05-16, 16:16
Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.

I0433 / SVP46 (grave 1) - R1a1
I0122 / SVP35 (grave 12) - R1b1

They were from this cemetery:

"The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River,
6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe."

This shows that ca. 7000 years ago there was at least some overlap between R1a and R1b.

We know that R1a people lived from Karelia (sample I0061) to Khvalynsk (sample I0433).

We don't know how far south did Non-V88 R1b extend, it could by more southerly than R1a:

http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png

http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png

Tomenable
02-05-16, 16:27
Yamna was largely R1b but it was Eastern R1b - R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L23*. There was also R1a-Z93 in Yamna.

No R1b-L51 and no R1b-L11 has been found in Yamna so far. Also no "Western" R1a has been found in Yamna.

The problem with R1b-L11 (P312 & U106) expanding from Yamna, is that it shows a West->East distribution:

Expansion of Bell Beaker culture "out of Iberia and Southern France" explains R1b-L51 (ht15) much better:

http://s32.postimg.org/ewzhkb9ph/Frequency_and_Variance.png

Do you have a map showing variance of R1b-L11, because I could only find such a map for R1b-P312 ???

======================================

Expansion of Yamna along the Danube into Southern Europe can be explained well enough by Eastern R1b:

http://s32.postimg.org/s6rq86kf9/Yamna_Westward.png

Tomenable
02-05-16, 16:39
We do have this "controversial" sample of R1b-M269 from Copper Age Spain - ATP3:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-atp3/

That sample is actually older than Indo-European expansions from Russia into Europe.

Recently the authors of "Punctuated bursts in human male demography..." wrote:

"(...) in Western Europe, related lineages within R1b-L11 expanded ~4.8–5.9 kya (Supplementary Fig. 14e), most markedly around 4.8 and 5.5 kya. The earlier of these times, 5.5 kya, is associated with the origin of the Bronze Age Yamnaya culture. The Yamnaya have been linked by aDNA evidence to a massive migration from the Eurasian Steppe, which may have replaced much of the previous European population24,25; however, the six Yamnaya with informative genotypes did not bear lineages descending from or ancestral to R1b-L11, so a Y-chromosome connection has not been established. The later time, 4.8 kya, coincides with the origins of the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture in Eastern Europe and the Bell–Beaker culture in Western Europe26. (...)"

ATP3 from Sierra de Atapuerca (El Portalon cave) in Spain, is dated to ~5.5–5.3 kya (~5466-5312 years ago).

This falls perfectly within the time range for expansion of R1b-L11 in Western Europe (which is ~5.9-4.8 kya).

If ATP3 was R1b-L51+, then Western European R1b could originate in Copper Age Spain, not in Yamna culture.

Tomenable
02-05-16, 16:48
Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:

http://secherbernard.blog.free.fr/public/.L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003_m.jpg

If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.

Goga
02-05-16, 17:27
Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:

http://secherbernard.blog.free.fr/public/.L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003_m.jpg

If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.It is possible that even before the Yamnaya Horizon migration into Europe, so prior to the Yamnaya Steppes migration, the auDNA (autosomal) landscape of Europe and Yamnaya Horzion was already for 50-75% identical to each other.


Not only the Y-DNA haplogroups of Yamnaya were West Asian (Eastern), but Yamnaya was also partly West Asian (Caucaso-Gedrosian) autosomal. So, it is possible that Europe was also prior to migration from Yamnaya already partly West Asian (in addition to Neolithic West Asian) & partly Steppes.


With other words, maybe there was already a migration from the 'east' hundreds of years before the 'out-of-Yamnaya migration'. So that the Yamnaya auDNA influence of Europe could be overrated.

berun
02-05-16, 18:05
Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.

I see, could have this R1a an origin in the local HG then? Take into account that your map for R1a the HG would have a more extended territory:



7500-4500
Russia, Anashkino, Psov oblast
A4
R1a1




Chekunova 2014


mtDNA H


4000 BC
Russia, Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast)

A3
"R1a1"




Chekunova 2014


mtDNA H

berun
02-05-16, 18:13
There was also R1a-Z93 in Yamna.

Which one? i can't detect it.

By the way the map showing the extension of R1b-L23 could fit also a Neolithic diffusion taking in to account the Anatolian stronghold, but also could reflect the Hurrian/Urrite/Pelasgian/Etruscan Bronze Age history...

berun
02-05-16, 18:27
With other words, maybe there was already a migration from the 'east' hundreds of years before out-of-Yamnaya migration. So that the Yamnaya auDNA influence of Europe could be overrated.

I have thought that such common DNA is shared from the same common population but in different times and routes: Westerners through Neolithic colonization coming from Anatolia/Fertile Crescent, and the Yamnaya from Trans-Caucasians/Fertile Crescent through Maykop catalisation. Other ways are also possible but this one is more economic and would allow a late R1a migration to Central Asia from European Russia.

berun
02-05-16, 18:37
Do you have a map showing variance of R1b-L11, because I could only find such a map for R1b-P312 ???

You may get it in "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe" L-11 is Westerner now.

bicicleur
02-05-16, 19:00
Berun, you forgot about Khvalynsk culture (Chalcolithic Samara), where there was both R1a and R1b.

I0433 / SVP46 (grave 1) - R1a1
I0122 / SVP35 (grave 12) - R1b1

They were from this cemetery:

"The cemetery of Khvalynsk II, Saratov oblast, Russia, on the west bank of the Volga River,
6 km north of the village of Alekseevka. Khvalynsk I and II are two parts of the same cemetery,
excavated in 1977-79 (Khvalynsk I) and 1987-88 (Khvalynsk II).23 The two excavations
revealed 197 graves, about 10x larger than other cemeteries of this period in the Volga-Ural
steppes, dated by radiocarbon to 5200-4000 BCE (95.4% confidence). Bones of domesticated
cattle and sheep-goat, and horses of uncertain status, were included in 28 human graves and
in 10 sacrificial deposits. The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe."

This shows that ca. 7000 years ago there was at least some overlap between R1a and R1b.

We know that R1a people lived from Karelia (sample I0061) to Khvalynsk (sample I0433).

We don't know how far south did Non-V88 R1b extend, it could by more southerly than R1a:

http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png

http://s32.postimg.org/npur1zskl/R1b_R1a.png

I'd say both R1a & R1b were around the southern Caspian Sea 14 ka - check Hoti & Belt Caves
R1a was the first to cross the Caucasus and move further north along the big rivers of Eastern Europe
R1b-P297 followed later
First IE were R1b-M269 and M73 (Afanasievo may be R1b-M73)
Suvorovo (anatolian branch) was R1b-M269
R1a-M417 was a herder in the forest-steppe zone north of the Pontic Steppe who adopted IE language and culture,
it was the origin for both corded ware and abashevo, syntashta evolved out of abashevo

Goga
02-05-16, 19:10
Other ways are also possible but this one is more economic and would allow a late R1a migration to Central Asia from European Russia.
Some facts:

a) Haplogroup R1a* is more than 15000 years old. R1a is older than the so called 'Indo-Europeans'.

b) R1a rose from R1*.

c) Central Asia has some local Y-DNA haplogroups like hg. 'L' and hg. 'H' that are almost absent outside Central and SouthCentral Asia.

d) Central Asian R1a is not the same as the European Russian R1a.



There are 2 possibilities.

1.

R1a in European Russia and Central Asia are very different from each other. R1a in Karelia has no direct links with R1a-Z93 in Central Asia. It is not ancestral to it.
And there are almost no other ancient 'European' haplogroups like hg. 'I', hg. 'I1' or hg. 'I2' in Central Asia. This means that there was no migration from the Western Steppes into the Easter Steppes.

So, it is possible that there was already R1a in the whole Eurasia for thousands of years, before Indo-Europeans ever came into the existence.


OR 2.

There is also R1a-Z93 on the Iranian Plateau, but they are not so much other local Central Asian haplogroups in West Asia. And this is an indication that there was no migration from Central Asia into West Asia, because if there was a migration from Central Asia into West Asia, R1a-Z93 would also bring other 'Central Asian' haplogroups with it, like Y-DNA haplogroups 'L' and 'H'. Since Central Asia is full of local hg. L and hg. H. Central Asia as whole region has much more local hg. 'L', hg. 'H' and hg. 'R2' than 'R1a'.

Instead, the R1a-Z93 migration from the Iranian Plateau into Central Asia is possible, because there are many West Asian haplogroups in Central Asia, like hg. 'J2a', hg. 'G' etc.


R1a-Z93 in Iran can't be from Central Asia, but R1a-Z93 in Central Asia could be from Iran. When R1a-Z93 in Iran can't be from Central Asia, where is it from then???

Tomenable
02-05-16, 19:12
New revelations:

First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32260-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe?p=479360&viewfull=1#post479360

bicicleur
02-05-16, 19:13
Check also the distribution of basal subclades of R1b-L51* (i.e. L51 which is neither P312 nor U106).

Such most basal subclades of R1b-L51* are most frequent in South-Western Europe, notably France:

http://secherbernard.blog.free.fr/public/.L51_Map_with_Neolithic_Path_003_m.jpg

If we assume that R1b-L51 came from Yamna, why are there no traces of R1b-L51* left in the East?

Of course, ancient DNA is "superior" to modern DNA. It will provide conclusive evidence in the future.

But so far indeed not a single sample of R1b-L51 has been found in Yamnaya, and it may remain so.

interesting
where did you get this map?

this is the YFull tree :
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/
R-L51 split 5,8 ka in just 2 clades :
- R-Z2118 TMRCA 5000 years
- R-L151 TMRCA 4900 years
it is still possible R-L51 split in the Pontic steppe and both R-Z2118 and R-L151 moved west not earlier than 5000 years ago as attested by new kurgans in the Balkan and the Carpathian Basin around that time ; around 4900 years ago, first Bell Beakers arrive in Portugal
IMO first Bell Beaker in Portugal was R1b-L151

Tomenable
02-05-16, 19:16
YFull age estimates are too young.

For example YFull's estimate for TMRCA of R1b-L11 is only ~5,000 years ago.

But authors of "Punctuated bursts..." estimate its TMRCA as ~6,000 years ago.

I got the map from BB blogger:

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2014/11/apparent-cline-vs-real-cline.html

Goga
02-05-16, 19:28
wrong topic

Tomenable
02-05-16, 19:45
I see, could have this R1a an origin in the local HG then? Take into account that your map for R1a the HG would have a more extended territory:



7500-4500
Russia, Anashkino, Psov oblast
A4
R1a1




Chekunova 2014


mtDNA H


4000 BC
Russia, Serteya (Smolenskaya oblast)
A3
"R1a1"




Chekunova 2014


mtDNA H




7500-4500, really ???

As far as I know, both of them were ~4000 BC, so 6000 years ago.

My map was for samples which are older, ca. 7000 years old.

But I placed an arrow showing expansion towards Pskov/Smolensk.

berun
03-05-16, 00:13
R1a in European Russia and Central Asia are very different from each other. R1a in Karelia has no direct links with R1a-Z93 in Central Asia. It is not ancestral to it.
And there are almost no other ancient 'European' haplogroups like hg. 'I', hg. 'I1' or hg. 'I2' in Central Asia. This means that there was no migration from the Western Steppes into the Easter Steppes.

So, it is possible that there was already R1a in the whole Eurasia for thousands of years, before Indo-Europeans ever came into the existence.

From "Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a phylogeography": "Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common
ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, B5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). [...] Star-like branching
near the root of the Asian subtree suggests rapid growth and dispersal."

Moreover the data suggested by the authors is around the data of Indoeuropean-just-before-splitting...

berun
03-05-16, 00:16
New revelations:

First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32260-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe?p=479360&viewfull=1#post479360

So another fact that gives to "IE from R1b/Yamnaya" theory a more difficult dribbling...

berun
03-05-16, 00:28
7500-4500, really ???

From THE FIRST RESULTS OF GENETIC TYPING OF LOCAL POPULATION AND ANCIENT HUMAN BONESIN UPPER DVINA REGION: "Sample № А4 is a tooth from maxilla, found during excava-tions of B.S.Korotkevich on the hillfort Anashkino. e hori-zon, where it was found, is dated to VIII-V c. BC (Короткевич 2013)."

Goga
03-05-16, 00:54
From "Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a phylogeography": "Using the 8 R1a lineages, with an average length of 48 SNPs accumulated since the common
ancestor, we estimate the splintering of R1a-M417 to have occurred rather recently, B5800 years ago (95% CI: 4800–6800). [...] Star-like branching
near the root of the Asian subtree suggests rapid growth and dispersal."

Moreover the data suggested by the authors is around the data of Indoeuropean-just-before-splitting...
This is what I mean. R1a in Karelia has nothing to do with R1a-M417 or the Indo-Europeans in general. R1a was widespread all over the Eurasia before the Indo-Europeans.


" The diversification downstream of M417 occurred ~5800 years ago "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html


So this happened even before the Yamnaya culture was born and was maybe at the very beginning of the Maykop culture.


Yamnaya culture is max 5500 years old, while the diversification downstream of M417 occurred about 5800 years ago. By the time when R1b-Z2103 from Maykop migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon (5500 YPB), the Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z283 & R1a-Z93 already existed.

I do agree with you that the splitting of R1a-M417 occurred around the beginning of the Maykop culture, but it is still not yet established where that split happened. Or that it has anything to do with Maykop/Yamnaya. The diversification happened not during the Yamnaya, but before, that for sure...

berun
04-05-16, 18:43
R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.

By the way CW (2900-2300) seems to expand eastwards direct to the Yamnaya core (3500-2300), more exactly the CW subculture of Fatyanovo (3200-2300); that's another fact difficult to dribble for R1b = IE, as R1a was migrating where it's supposed that R1b were departing to the west...

7715

map from The Bronze Era of the Forest Belt of the USSR (1987).

also it's good to take into account that the DNA samples from Yamnaya date after such process, so caution if the Yamnaya DNA in CW is not in fact CW DNA in Yamnaya...

Goga
04-05-16, 18:53
R1a was widespread all over Eurasia before IE?

You try to relate the R1a split with millenial cultures but i try to relate such split with the date that common IE started to diverge.
Yes, you can take me as an example. As an Ezdi Kurd I'm native to the Northern Mesopotamia, Shengal (Sinjar) region of Kurdistan. My archaic ancestors never lived in the Steppes

I belong to a Y-DNA hg. R1a* which is not part and is older than M17 (R1a1a). With other words, R1a is NOT native to the Steppes. Because the R1a* to which I do belong is NOT from the Steppes.



http://s32.postimg.org/4w5khzt5x/image.jpg



" Based on spatial distributions and diversity patterns within the R1a-M420 clade, particularly rare basal branches detected primarily within Iran and eastern Turkey, we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran. "

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html



Ancient R1a in the Western Eurasian Steppes predate any Indo-Europeans (movement) by THOUSANDS of years



There are 2 things what you have to remember.

1) Yamnaya culture was the OLDEST Indo-European culture of Europe.
2) Scientists have proven with auDNA (autosomal) that around the Yamnaya Period there was a migration from East (Yamnaya) into West (Europe).

berun
04-05-16, 21:05
Being a kurd then being also indoeuropean it is to expect Y DNA related to indoeuropeans in your people, but of course your own DNA could be more old than such episode, but as to be sure that R1a was from your land, it would be better to know where his brother R1b grew up, but my nose points to your area anyway. Otherwise it's normal to have more genetic diversity in mountains as compared to plain steppes or north Europeans plains, and for diversity it's not a guarantee of oldnes, you can check the romance languages' diversity peak around the Alps....

I don't know Yamnayan writen texts as to be sure they were IE, do you have?

For steppe DNA, as said, CW and R1a was roaming in the area... as CW cows...

Goga
04-05-16, 21:18
R1a and R1b are more than 15000 years old. At that time of period there was no such thing as Indo-Europeans. I don't know what kind of language they spoke, but maybe a very, very ancient extinct archaic human language.

PIE is maybe max 8000 years old.

R1a & R1b were already widespread all over the Eurasia in the prehistoric times, before the so called Indo-Europeans ever came into existence.





The oldest European Kurgans you can find in the Yamnaya Horizon. Then those Kurgans were spread to the West inside Europe and to the Eastern Steppes. Kurgans in Yamnaya Horizon predate kurgans in CW. Also auDNA was spread from Yamnaya into CW. CW was for a huge part (maybe 70-75%) Yamnaya.

berun
05-05-16, 00:48
OK for the 15000 years of split, not the same language by sure, so the question relies to choose IE = R1a or IE = R1b, no more candidates in the arena.

Extrended R in prehistoric times is another statement as that that i understood (paleolithic times).

For kurgans as IE tester: what to do with kurgans in Maykop (north Caucasus)? in Kura-Araxes (south Caucasus)? some more older than Yamnaya itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maikop_kurgan

following the case that Kurgans are related 100% to language you might take for granted that Yamnaya spoke Circassian...

As to explain better CW DNA in Yamnaya take this example: you get DNA from 100 Quebequois of 1750 and compare it to actual French DNA; who would say that there was a colonization of Europe from America?

By the way the area of the samples in discussion is in a corridor (Volga river), and a cultural crossroad, so expect biased results ever.

7716

berun
05-05-16, 01:06
Circassian barrow, the last kurganists... and the first ones?

This Circassian village had existed for centuries in this location, up until 150 years ago. There are still vestiges of this settlement. In the Betta forests there are ancient wells, some of which still welling out potable water (Photos 6, 7). A wine cellar with a still intact roof can also be found in the environs (Photos 8, 9). Two groups of ancient tombs of Circassians are found in the forests (Photo 10 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k50AbmHyJ-0/UsFJAISukqI/AAAAAAAAAV4/1-70ShQsbyI/s320/6.+Circassian+burial+mound,+ancient+burial+method. .jpg)). The mediæval tombs are in the form of small mounds, and they date back to XV-XVI centuries AD. The tops of the burial mounds are covered with "shells" of earth and stones. Mounds were erected on graves in accordance with the ancient Circassian burial customs and rituals. The size of the mound indicated the status of the deceased, the larger the mound, the higher the status. The status of these tombs is not known. Are they still intact after all these years? Or, have they been opened and tampered with? And if so, what happened to the “occupiers” of these tombs and their possessions? Perhaps they are kept at some museum. At any rate, the tombs are presently under state protection.

LeBrok
05-05-16, 03:55
OK for the 15000 years of split, not the same language by sure, so the question relies to choose IE = R1a or IE = R1b, no more candidates in the arena.

Extrended R in prehistoric times is another statement as that that i understood (paleolithic times).

For kurgans as IE tester: what to do with kurgans in Maykop (north Caucasus)? in Kura-Araxes (south Caucasus)? some more older than Yamnaya itself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maikop_kurgan

following the case that Kurgans are related 100% to language you might take for granted that Yamnaya spoke Circassian...

As to explain better CW DNA in Yamnaya take this example: you get DNA from 100 Quebequois of 1750 and compare it to actual French DNA; who would say that there was a colonization of Europe from America?

By the way the area of the samples in discussion is in a corridor (Volga river), and a cultural crossroad, so expect biased results ever.

7716
We all posted our opinions about IE language here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31324-Where-did-proto-IE-language-start

Greying Wanderer
05-05-16, 05:52
Berun

The mad idea that R1a could be the real carrier of IE

I think it's possible the PIE in the Pontic steppe expanded a limited amount east and west and acted as a catalyst that lead to the main, more R1a and CW population IE expansion that went all the way to India.

Tomenable

The problem with R1b-L11 (P312 & U106) expanding from Yamna, is that it shows a West->East distribution:

This seeming west->east distribution has always been a sticking point with me. My pet theory (that copper workers went west in small numbers, had a dramatic population increase along the Atlantic coast due to LP and then expanded from the West) developed because the distribution seemed west->east.

Although now ancient R1b has been found in Italy I'm not so sure.

R1a / R1b existing all across northern Eurasia from the north European plain to Siberia and then sliced into separate refuges by the LGM? So multiple lineages from multiple refuges?

Tomenable

First R1b entered Italy from the Near East at least 14,000 years (they came as hunter-gatherers):

That's just the usual default assumption where everything must come from the middle east.

That assumption is a recurring problem imo.

berun
07-05-16, 09:34
LeBrok OK for the old posts, the link may serve as continuation.

Coming back with more proofs/problems: why IE being in the steppes had words for: werwer- ‘squirrel’, ?*tworkˆo´s ‘boar’, *h1elh1e¯n ‘red deer’, *lo´k ˆ s ‘salmonid, salmon(trout), *dhonu- ‘fir’, *pe´ukˆ s ‘(Scotch) pine, conifer’, *k ˆ o´ss ‘(Scotch) pine’, *pit(u)- ‘(some form of) conifer’,...

berun
07-05-16, 09:45
Another fact/problem: R1b being the IE carrier is first recorded in Italy just some 2000 years after the R1b formation... and without any steppe track (no basal Eusoasian), moreover he had Near Eastern origins, and that fits well with V88 in Africa which expanded there some 7000 years ago... from Near Eastern; even there was also V88 in the Pyrenees, there are a mesolithic R1b found in the Volga which is supposed to stand for all IE / R1b classification, but it's a biased example? he was next to the Samara culture, and taking the example of Africa it could be not a native haplo: in "Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages" there is Bantu Y-DNA in "paleolithic" Pygmies but almost no Pygmi Y-DNA in Bantus (instead Pygmi mtDNA is found among Bantus but the contrary is not seen). So all it gives to R1a more chances to be the carrier of IE.

berun
07-05-16, 17:13
Sorry for the "spam"... but i forgot to add up the bear, PIE *rktos, I'm not a biologist but i doubt that a bear could survive more than a month in the steppes, what to hunt? what to grasp?

LeBrok
07-05-16, 17:14
LeBrok OK for the old posts, the link may serve as continuation.

Coming back with more proofs/problems: why IE being in the steppes had words for: werwer- ‘squirrel’, ?*tworkˆo´s ‘boar’, *h1elh1e¯n ‘red deer’, *lo´k ˆ s ‘salmonid, salmon(trout), *dhonu- ‘fir’, *pe´ukˆ s ‘(Scotch) pine, conifer’, *k ˆ o´ss ‘(Scotch) pine’, *pit(u)- ‘(some form of) conifer’,...Why is that? All of these lived in Northern and Western Yamnaya.

LeBrok
07-05-16, 17:17
Another fact/problem: R1b being the IE carrier is first recorded in Italy just some 2000 years after the R1b formation... and without any steppe track (no basal Eusoasian), moreover he had Near Eastern origins, and that fits well with V88 in Africa which expanded there some 7000 years ago... from Near Eastern; even there was also V88 in the Pyrenees, there are a mesolithic R1b found in the Volga which is supposed to stand for all IE / R1b classification, but it's a biased example? he was next to the Samara culture, and taking the example of Africa it could be not a native haplo: in "Genetic and Demographic Implications of the Bantu Expansion: Insights from Human Paternal Lineages" there is Bantu Y-DNA in "paleolithic" Pygmies but almost no Pygmi Y-DNA in Bantus (instead Pygmi mtDNA is found among Bantus but the contrary is not seen). So all it gives to R1a more chances to be the carrier of IE.
If IE culture started in Yamnaya 6kya, it is obvious that not all the R1b and R1a subclades were IEs.

berun
08-05-16, 00:31
As far as i know Yamna people were nomadic and lived in the steppe

7731


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-w042U-esTSw/VVB-mGgfxhI/AAAAAAAACjs/9Cg6W5l9ROM/s1600/Pontic-Caspian%2Bsteppe.jpg

berun
08-05-16, 00:35
I explain better: only a bunch of R1a (or R1b) must be the carriers of PIE, the other clades no, of course.

LeBrok
08-05-16, 02:04
I explain better: only a bunch of R1a (or R1b) must be the carriers of PIE, the other clades no, of course.
Maybe for language, but whole culture was based on developments of neighbors close by, like copper, tools, agriculture, etc. Maybe even horse domestication was learned from Botai people.

berun
08-05-16, 09:30
Another fact/problem as to denounce the "tale" of Yamnaya as the source of IE is DNA. Authors of "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" state that CW people had around 4/5 of their aDNA from a Yamnaya-like population, impliying a "population turnover". Ok, steppes are less peopled right? Let's deliver 1 milion Yamnayans there, let's suppoose that pre-CW (unhabiting 1/4 of Europe) was peopled by 10 milion people... and then CW get's 4/5 of Yamna genes, all right. The Bronze Age result of all it is that half of the DNA was from Yamnaya, but the unique way to get such relation is an event of plannified extermination or that Yamnayans had an extraordinary procreation rate. In fact as to get the half it would be necessary to exterminate 5000000 pre-CW (simple maths, sorry). If we apply procreation rates, it implies that from a milion Yamnayans we might get some 10 milion in few generations as to have such half. Quite extraordinary both events.

The tale reaches the maximal complexity after reading in "Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia" that:

The close affinity we observe between peoples of Corded Ware and
Sintashta cultures (Extended Data Fig. 2a) suggests similar genetic
sources of the two, which contrasts with previous hypotheses placing
the origin of Sintastha in Asia or the Middle East28. Although we
cannot formally test whether the Sintashta derives directly from an
eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples or if they share common
ancestry with an earlier steppe population, the presence of European
Neolithic farmer ancestry in both the Corded Ware and the Sintashta,
combined with the absence of Neolithic farmer ancestry in the earlier
Yamnaya, would suggest the former being more probable (Fig. 2b and
Extended Data Table 1).
...
The Andronovo culture, which arose
in Central Asia during the later Bronze Age (Fig. 1), is genetically
closely related to the Sintashta peoples (Extended Data Fig. 2c), and
clearly distinct from both Yamnaya and Afanasievo (Fig. 3b and
Extended Data Table 1). Therefore, Andronovo represents a temporal
and geographical extension of the Sintashta gene pool.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/From_Corded_Ware_to_Sintashta.jpg

Both Sintashta and Andronovo have provided R1a Y-DNA results, and no R1b yet.

Athiudisc
08-05-16, 22:35
why IE being in the steppes had words for:

squirrel
boar
red deer
salmon/trout
bear

All of these live across the steppe, don't they? Wouldn't this be evidence for, rather than against, a steppe origin of IE?


R1b...recorded in Italy just some 2000 years after the R1b formation... and without any steppe track

I think R1b is a bit older, but assuming we're talking about the same sample and a "steppe track," there's some debate about that. Quoting, here:


I've been running a lot of Treemix analyses with the samples from the recent Qiaomei Fu et al. paper. And the impression I'm getting is that the authors missed the elephant in the room, the one with R1b painted on its big butt.

...

- Villabruna is a sister clade of the earlier European Vestonice clade, but with significant input from an AfontovaGora3-related North Eurasian population, perhaps one that was living north of the Black Sea after the Kostenki people went the way of the dodo

- Hence, the R1b lineage carried by Villabruna I9030, the individual in this Treemix series, probably comes from the Eurasian steppe

What sample are we talking about?


Both Sintashta and Andronovo have provided R1a Y-DNA results, and no R1b yet.

But both Yamna and Corded Ware have provided R1b, so...

MOESAN
08-05-16, 23:45
Germanic it's already linked to CW, as the extension of such culture includes Slavic and Baltic and such groups are the first to branch with Germanic, so a linguistic drift from a common source is expected; that also goes well with archaeology, as the first agriculturalists were Funnelbeaker with megaliths, but around 2900 BC came CW / Battle Axe culture with metals and kurgans, from such culture derived the Nordic Bronze Age, then the Nordic Iron Age / Jastorf, till appearing the Vikings in the area. Paleogenetics fit well also the case: HG were I2, a Funnelbeaker case was also I2, but then a CW was R1a, in the period of transit between Battle Axe and Bronze Age results were R1a, R1b, I1, as to have in the Nordic Bronze Age two R1b and a I1. As R1b is linked to the west, to western clades and to Bell Beaker, it's difficult to take it as Indoeuropean (but could be an Indoeuropaized BB), the linguistic change to Germanic only can be given for R1a with such data.

For Tocharian it takes very long from the R1a Tarim mummies to the attested Tocharian A and B, but as such languages come from a common Tocharian such old language might be older, and as I don't know of cultural breaks in the region it's to suppose that the carriers of proto-Tocharian were the "mummies".

Theories can be right till they can't dribble more known facts, so let's see how long such idea could go on in my head...


I'm sure of nothing. But I think the relative proximity of Germanic and Slavic concerning words (not their pronounciation at all) is more the result of relative geographical closeness than a genealogic origin. I made the hypothesis CWC could have spoken a proto-satem I-Ean language, without proof it's true. based upon the fact that some strata of I-Ean vaguely satem words exist in Saami's language, according to some specialists. And Y-R1a seems old in Scandinavia, older than a big part of Y-I1. The same people wrote another strata of pre-finnic words existed in Saami finnic, I'm tempted to consider as an Y-I2 heritage (my feminine intuition!). So I don't link too much CWC to proto-germanic at this stage of my meager knowledge. The few Nordic BA people I red about was just a bit less 'mediterranean' (and EEF) than BBs, and more than CWC people. I suppose Jastorf culture is not at all a direct heritage from CWC; I see in it a mix of Funnelbeaker (already a mix where played Long Barrows megalithers and some autochtonous people) + some other I-Ean imput from Bohemia or East Sax surroundings post-CWC (these last non-CWC being rather Y-R1b-U106?). I don't exclude other Y-R1b less numerous, representing a northeastern BBs influence.
concerning BBs and (non)I-Eans, I think the BBs phenomenon is rather badly understood until now, and that Northern BBs (Germany) are maybe almost completely different from the initial BBs of Portugal-South Spain. BBs is an unlevel culturel diffusion with some demic (diverse?) imputs according to times and places. The burying methods seem very diverse, the BBs of Germany and North seeming closer to steppic I-Eans elites ones, at first sight. Spite the recent forwrad steps I still wait for more data...
good night.

MOESAN
08-05-16, 23:56
Another fact/problem as to denounce the "tale" of Yamnaya as the source of IE is DNA. Authors of "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" state that CW people had around 4/5 of their aDNA from a Yamnaya-like population, impliying a "population turnover". Ok, steppes are less peopled right? Let's deliver 1 milion Yamnayans there, let's suppoose that pre-CW (unhabiting 1/4 of Europe) was peopled by 10 milion people... and then CW get's 4/5 of Yamna genes, all right. The Bronze Age result of all it is that half of the DNA was from Yamnaya, but the unique way to get such relation is an event of plannified extermination or that Yamnayans had an extraordinary procreation rate. In fact as to get the half it would be necessary to exterminate 5000000 pre-CW (simple maths, sorry). If we apply procreation rates, it implies that from a milion Yamnayans we might get some 10 milion in few generations as to have such half. Quite extraordinary both events.

The tale reaches the maximal complexity after reading in "Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia" that:

The close affinity we observe between peoples of Corded Ware and
Sintashta cultures (Extended Data Fig. 2a) suggests similar genetic
sources of the two, which contrasts with previous hypotheses placing
the origin of Sintastha in Asia or the Middle East28. Although we
cannot formally test whether the Sintashta derives directly from an
eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples or if they share common
ancestry with an earlier steppe population, the presence of European
Neolithic farmer ancestry in both the Corded Ware and the Sintashta,
combined with the absence of Neolithic farmer ancestry in the earlier
Yamnaya, would suggest the former being more probable (Fig. 2b and
Extended Data Table 1).
...
The Andronovo culture, which arose
in Central Asia during the later Bronze Age (Fig. 1), is genetically
closely related to the Sintashta peoples (Extended Data Fig. 2c), and
clearly distinct from both Yamnaya and Afanasievo (Fig. 3b and
Extended Data Table 1). Therefore, Andronovo represents a temporal
and geographical extension of the Sintashta gene pool.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/From_Corded_Ware_to_Sintashta.jpg

Both Sintashta and Andronovo have provided R1a Y-DNA results, and no R1b yet.

You have some arguments, but are we sure that the precise Y-R1A and Y-R1B living at these times in the Steppes were SO DIFFERENT concerning AuDNA??? Y-DNA, as said others here and elsewhere and as you know, is a small part of total DNA But I accord you the "Yamnaya origin" of CWC deserves some caution if we rely on male elites. I would rather say both share an heavy common auDNA ascendance picked in Steppes, perhaps close enough of Forest Steppes.
???

berun
09-05-16, 18:59
I think that you might check the habitats of the refered animals: salmon of course is not in the steppes / Black Sea

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lox&allowed_in_frame=0

of course this hinders mainstream indoeuropeanists but they have found the magical solution establishing an old meaning of trout...

the bear as said cannot survive in steppes, i supposed it but wiki says clearly:


With the exception of the polar bear, bears are mostly forest species. Some species, particularly the brown bear, may inhabit or seasonally use other areas, such as alpine scrub or tundra.

red deer is not found now in steppes as I thought but in wiki there is a map that time ago (when?) there were, i don't know if such info is from archaeology or some guessing.

the wiki says about the boar that


The main habitats favoured by boars in Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) are deciduous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_deciduous_forest) and mixed forests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_broadleaf_and_mixed_forest), with the most favourable areas consisting of forest composed of oak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak) and beech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech) enclosing marshes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh) and meadows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow)

as to give then a map that includes steppes, but the common wild boar is a forest animal (they don't eat grass)

squirrels, they have such tail to keep equilibrium in branches and to jump better between trees, by that the prairie dogs (a kind of "steppe squirels") have normal tails; the common squirrels survive with nuts and by that you find them in forests; i have thought about the possibility to survive in riverine forests but i don't know any tree of such ecosystem giving nuts.

For Villabruna R1a and his cluster, the same author says where you quote "...":


Now, it's true that Treemix output can't be used as unambiguous evidence in support of complex models. That's because in the absence of key samples the algorithm can get exceedingly creative in modeling the available data, sometimes to such extremes that the results might seem absurd.

I don't like to discuss about unsure data, sorry.


But both Yamna and Corded Ware have provided R1b, so...

I was talking about Sintashta and Andronovo, about the two R1b individuals in CW could come from BB neighbours, and what is to take from all it is how is that Yamnaya changed 80% of CW aDNA without delivering any Y-DNA (or two doubious cases), and in it's eastward expansion the result for Yamnaya's Y-DNA is worse as is lacking; some red alarms appear here and there... can you see it?

berun
09-05-16, 19:06
MOESAN; the case for satem-like woords in Saami could be the result of contacts with Iranic/Scythian peoples neighboring Uralics, i think there are some papers about it. For the case of diversity in BB... you are right to denounce it, but in the Rhine there was a cultural mix with CW (that even reached Iberia in a backward route)

7732

For aDNA surely they must share a good bit as they were neighbours by centuries, but from a linguistic perspective, the Y-DNA is the DNA bit that could give more info about eventual or massive migrations and hypotetical language spreads.

Athiudisc
09-05-16, 21:51
I think that you might check the habitats of the refered animals

Ok.


salmon of course is not in the steppes / Black Sea

Of course not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_salmon


the bear as said cannot survive in steppes, i supposed it but wiki says clearly

Does it?


In Central Asia, human disturbances are minimal as this area has a harsher environment and is more sparsely populated. In this part of the world, bears may be found in steppe, alpine meadows and even desert edge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear

So, yes. Steppe bears. If you look at the distribution map, there's clear overlap in Eurasian brown bear habitation range and the northeastern Pontic steppe.


red deer is not found now in steppes as I thought but in wiki there is a map that time ago (when?) there were, i don't know if such info is from archaeology or some guessing.

I don't think the current lack of an animal in the steppe means it never lived there. As for why it's thought they lived there, I believe it's to do with archeological evidence, namely Bug-Dniester materials from the Neolithic. I can't swear it, though, and it's always possible they obtained red deer meat/tools from somewhere else.


the wiki says about the boar that

"Steppe animals include wild boar..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Russia


squirrels, they have such tail to keep equilibrium in branches and to jump better between trees, by that the prairie dogs (a kind of "steppe squirels") have normal tails; the common squirrels survive with nuts and by that you find them in forests; i have thought about the possibility to survive in riverine forests but i don't know any tree of such ecosystem giving nuts.

Red squirrels rather obviously live along the northern edge of the Pontic steppe. Why wouldn't steppe-dwellers know of them? That's like saying if there's an IE word for "tree," IE couldn't have come from the steppe...


I don't like to discuss about unsure data, sorry.

Ok.


I was talking about Sintashta and Andronovo, about the two R1b individuals in CW could come from BB neighbours, and what is to take from all it is how is that Yamnaya changed 80% of CW aDNA without delivering any Y-DNA (or two doubious cases), and in it's eastward expansion the result for Yamnaya's Y-DNA is worse as is lacking; some red alarms appear here and there... can you see it?

I see what you're saying, I simply disagree. The only reason I can see for calling CW R1b "dubious" is that your premise is that CW shouldn't have R1b because R1b wasn't IE, despite R1b in Yamna (I doubt those were introduced by BB, for more reasons than simple timing conflicts).

I'm sure one of us will be proven right at some point. :P Or maybe we're both wrong, somehow. :petrified:

Rethel
09-05-16, 23:39
If IE culture started in Yamnaya 6kya, it is obvious that not all the R1b and R1a subclades were IEs.

It depends how you define indoeuropeanness.

Even Yamna (which is exaggerated as a "only true
IE") didn't was alone and didnt come from nowhere.

berun
10-05-16, 16:45
In fact the Black Sea Salmon is a trout, but if it dwells also in sea i can accept that the salmon proff is dribbled here. For the bear, wikipedia is a good starting point, but not a good place, the statement that brown bears live in steppes is taken from the Lonely Planet book for Russia... if you can provide a better source it would inprove the case that bears can survive in deserts of grass. Yamnaya people knew by sure trees as there are river-trees, but the extension of such culture is not to think easily that they would be acquired with squirels or bears, as they never would have seen other than in the extreme north of their domain, but the other Yamnayans, even if knowing their exstence, would know bear as a kind of big hairy dog and squirels as a kind of tree-mouse or something like that, but that would not explain how in the IE daughter languages the words for such animals were inherited by the same animals.


The only reason I can see for calling CW R1b "dubious" is that your premise is that CW shouldn't have R1b because R1b wasn't IE, despite R1b in Yamna

It's a biased perspective, you give and OK to R1b in CW as you track such culture to Yamnaya; i'm also biased thinking in CW / IE / R1a, because then such R1b in the frontier might be alocton (as they can be), but for the zero point is more easy to have neighbours in CW than Yamnayans from 2000 km.


I'm sure one of us will be proven right at some point. :P Or maybe we're both wrong, somehow.

Usualy is something in the middle or even an unheard reality, but the good in this science is that it is providing new info very quick.

berun
10-05-16, 22:51
I was not aware about Anadoli Klyosov's views but i'm happy that I'm not the unique to see red alarms:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpereformat.ru%2F2016%2F04%2Fr1a-migration-2%2F&edit-text=&act=url

web:
http://www.anatole-klyosov.com/
http://pereformat.ru/klyosov/

Athiudisc
11-05-16, 02:02
Klyosov is very fond of theories that nearly everyone else rejects, like his idea that Out of Africa is completely backwards.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19566

Tomenable
11-05-16, 10:56
Wrong thread. Deleted.

MOESAN
12-05-16, 14:25
MOESAN; the case for satem-like woords in Saami could be the result of contacts with Iranic/Scythian peoples neighboring Uralics, i think there are some papers about it. For the case of diversity in BB... you are right to denounce it, but in the Rhine there was a cultural mix with CW (that even reached Iberia in a backward route)

7732

For aDNA surely they must share a good bit as they were neighbours by centuries, but from a linguistic perspective, the Y-DNA is the DNA bit that could give more info about eventual or massive migrations and hypotetical language spreads.

language: what I wrote is based upon 2 abstracts made by non-linguist scholars, it was rather "reports" or "citations" so without element to discuss them. If I remember well, Alex. Shtrunov spoke about a non-I-E language AS SUBSTRATUM in Finnic of Finland (?) in a text about the Y-I1 and Y-I2a2 present in North Russia East Moskow.
And the the other abstract spoke of 2 SUBSTRATA languages in Finnic of Saami, an I-E one satemlike and a non-I-E one, akin to some kind of proto-Basque.
So: substrata, not loanwords, if they are not wrong 'uneasy to decide, even with data, it's their job) - and we don't know WHERE/WHEN the Saami picked their substrata? when coming through Finland or when they entered in touch with predecessors in Scandinavia? It can change my and your arguments.

auDNA: a lot of first Y-R1a and R1b caould share big amounts of auDNA if they are the ones who stayed a long times around the Steppes: ancient common Y-R1 DNA plus: reinforced common DNA or shared new DNA taken among gemales during their history, f they crossed the same lands at some stage.

berun
12-05-16, 23:24
Klyosov is very fond of theories that nearly everyone else rejects, like his idea that Out of Africa is completely backwards.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19566

The little point here is that science is not a democracy where reality adapts to polling, so I try to prevent the attitude of school youngsters to follow a lider in exchange of security (the same behaviour is seen in many scientists following their favourite "gurus" in exchange of scientific security, or even by fear by their incomes or their degrees). Facts are facts instead what people might think or prefer. What I say is that is so bad a call for authority than a call for majority.

Athiudisc
13-05-16, 16:26
I'm sure you didn't mean that to come across as quite so insulting, so I'll proceed on that basis.

No, science isn't a democracy, but in the same vein, nor is it a proper venue for fan fiction. When Klyosov says "R1b founded Sumer," I want evidence that supports such a conclusion. The fact that there doesn't seem to be any isn't indicative of scientific populism or immature behavior amongst, well, anyone. It's just an appraisal of the available information.

In other words, bucking consensus doesn't hold inherent merit in this endeavor. Merit is found in the process, when applied properly. As you said, facts are facts, not what people might prefer. And thus far, the available information suggests the fact that both R1b and R1a, not exclusively one or the other, were intimately involved in the formation and spread of Indo-European languages across Eurasia.

berun
04-06-16, 11:15
Well, another "little" red alarm about the steppe R1b.

In "Ancient genomes link early farmers from Atapuerca in Spain to modern-day Basques" there is stated that:


All modern-day Iberian groups displayed ancestry from early farmers and hunter–gatherers and also showed admixture from North
Africa (Fig. 3A, yellow component) (23) and the Caucasus/Central Asia (Fig. 3A, dark purple component), potentially related
to the observed migration during the Bronze Age [Yamnaya > Corded Ware] (24, 25) or the later Roman Empire ruling of Iberia. Basques (including
French Basques) were an exception; they display ancestry from early farmers and hunter–gatherers, similar to other modern-day
Iberian groups,but little or no admixture from North Africa and the Caucasus/Central Asia (1, 23)

Our data suggest that modern-day Basques traced their genetic ancestry to early Iberian farmers.

A possible interpretation of the role of Basque in this scenario would be that it is a descendent of the
language (or one of the languages) of the early farmers, and some scholars have posited that the Basque language was related
to the pre-Roman language of Sardinia (Paleosardo) (32). The two Southern European population isolates of Sardinians and
Basques were genetically associated with the early farmers of Europe that drove the Neolithic transition (1–3),

The incoming early farmers, who could have spoken a non–Indo-European language, assimilated resident
hunter–gatherers, with this admixed group becoming the ancestors of modern-day Iberian groups. Basques remained relatively
isolated (compared with other Iberian groups) with marked continuity since the Neolithic/Chalcolithic period, but not since
the Mesolithic (contrary to refs. 8, 9, and 26). Later migration into Iberia, possibly during the long reign of the Roman Empire
and the 7th to 13th century period of Moorish rule of the peninsula, led to distinct and additional admixture in all Iberian
groups but the Basque population (23).

There were two possible routes to deliver Neolithic genes to the Basque country: the Atlantic one through Portugal, or the Ebro Valley from the Mediterranean (also Languedoc to reach Aquitania and it's old Basque language). But nowadays Basques have one of the most high percentages in R1b, but the paper shows how they have a very low steppe admixture (that even couldn't come from the steppe but mediated by Rome!). Then such paper is giving more problems to relate R1b with IE, and indirectly, to relate the old R1b found in the steppe with IE.

Athiudisc
04-06-16, 18:59
How is that in any way a "red alarm" relating to R1b-M269 and IE languages? Basque R1b has extremely low diversity; its presence in Basques is most likely due to a founder effect that didn't require massive admixture with IE groups.

If anything, it seems to strengthen the case for R1b from the east, as the groups with heavy steppe admixture and R1b all spoke Indo-European languages as well. Basques have less steppe-ancestry and lack an Indo-European language, which would hardly be unexpected if their R1b was from a relatively small group of men that provided their paternal lines without leaving much autosomal evidence after thousands of years.

berun
04-06-16, 19:25
That basques are high in R1b, but that does not imply that they are the source population as you understand. They were a kind of genetic refugium.

High steppe admuxture and IE matches better for R1a. Could the R1b speak the same language of their brother after 20 millennia?

The last statement about few men changing basque Y DNA must be applied also to all no IE tribes in Iberia. Your last statement in fact is a gross red alarm.

MOESAN
05-06-16, 01:34
I'm not so sure as some forumers.
Basques showed surprising peculiarities, not total isolation but rather repeated phases of isolation and recent final isolation, (only intuition) I think.
Even if concerned by Neolithic demic introgressions. By instance their mtDNA is not so Neolithic spite some imput, compared ot Chalcolithic (known) people, and their autosomes show constantly curious links with North Europe populations: here we could say it 's due to more WHG conserved in their genomes. Some admicxtures analysis show nevertheless low level of 'west-asian', and when 'caucasian' is broken down into 'caucasus' and 'gedrosia' Basques show more relative % of 'gedrosia' than Iberians even more than British and Scandinavians. In some others, according to scientists and bloggists, they show some 'steppic' influence I'm tempted to link to part of 'gedrosia'. they show also some ANE even if a bit less than Iberians. But ANE I think was born to Southern Europe by 2 ways, a northern one rather from Steppes, a southern one, rather from South Caucasus/Anatolia, whatever the most remote place of origin IF these ANE parts are the same ones.
In fact I'm not sure Basques had NOT have relation with BBs, but my remembrance is bad on the subject.
Spite it was not my first choice, I wonder if as say Maciamo, Y-R1b among Basques is not from a small group of I-Eans males who did not manage to pass their languages to Basques females. Not my firt choice, I repeat because basques are not people to surrender too quickly to adversaries. All the way these Y-R1b seem come from North in Basque country, under its modern forms. I don't bet concerning Y-R1b-L51+L11.

Athiudisc
05-06-16, 16:38
High steppe admuxture and IE matches better for R1a.

Not really. Norway, if I remember correctly, has the highest steppe admixture in Europe (of the populations I recall from the recent series of papers), and R1b outweighs R1a, there. Then Lithuania, which has more R1a, then Iceland (twice as much R1b), Scotland (eight times as much R1b)...


Could the R1b speak the same language of their brother after 20 millennia?

IE languages are unlikely to have existed 20,000 years ago.


The last statement about few men changing basque Y DNA must be applied also to all no IE tribes in Iberia.

Which non-IE tribes in Iberia? I don't believe there are any. The Basques don't speak an Indo-European language, but everyone else does, and all Iberians have steppe ancestry.


Your last statement in fact is a gross red alarm.

I think we must be using the term differently. You mentioned the "Ancient genomes link early farmers from Atapuerca in Spain to modern-day Basques" publication as some sort of "red alarm" towards R1b from the east, but in fact, isn't that the paper that provided us with ATP3, an R1b individual who, unlike the non-R1b individuals tested, had very apparent eastern ancestry? That seems like more of a red alarm against your own theory...

berun
06-06-16, 10:05
Not really. Norway, if I remember correctly, has the highest steppe admixture in Europe (of the populations I recall from the recent series of papers), and R1b outweighs R1a, there. Then Lithuania, which has more R1a, then Iceland (twice as much R1b), Scotland (eight times as much R1b)...

In "Excavating past population structures by surname-based sampling: the genetic legacy of the Vikings in northwest England" results for Norway were 30/201 R1b and 35/201 R1a. For Iceland it was a medieval Viking colony. Scotland as Norway based much of their economies on herding so that Y-DNA IE herders would impact more there (if you take per example results from Sweden its R1a doubles R1b...); even more Scotland, was settled by Vikings also. For Lithuania it was a farmer country (high density... so more difficult to change Y-DNA) but R1a is high there.


IE languages are unlikely to have existed 20,000 years ago.

Of course, but the question would be to follow the reasoning: other than R1a and R1b brothers were by 20000 years in the same spot of let say 1000000 km2, R1b or R1a must have learned IE from his bro... and we know that the steppe people were already a mixed population... so R1a or R1b must have learned IE.


Which non-IE tribes in Iberia? I don't believe there are any. The Basques don't speak an Indo-European language, but everyone else does, and all Iberians have steppe ancestry.

Of course there are any, but there were; by memory: cerretani, ausetani, indigetani, ilergetani, sedetani, edetani, contestani, bastetani, cessetani, laietani, laketani, ilauragetani... all such tribes used Iberian language (non-IE) inscriptions. Actual steppe ancestry in Spaniards may come from Celts, Romans and European colonizers in the Reconquista.


but in fact, isn't that the paper that provided us with ATP3, an R1b individual who, unlike the non-R1b individuals tested, had very apparent eastern ancestry? That seems like more of a red alarm against your own theory...

can you give the source for such info? take into account that an individual from Calcholithic Iberia from 3500 BC to have steppe ancestry would change absolutely everything about what it is supposed to be such "steppe ancestry"...

Tomenable
06-06-16, 10:55
Which non-IE tribes in Iberia? I don't believe there are any.

Before the Roman conquest, half of Iberian population (if not more) were Non-IE tribes.

They only became IE-speakers after they adopted Latin language during Roman rules.


Norway, if I remember correctly, has the highest steppe admixture in Europe

European Russia has the highest, but some people don't consider Russia as part of Europe.

berun
06-06-16, 12:42
European Russia has the highest, but some people don't consider Russia as part of Europe.

That's very interesting in equate R1a = IE, can you provide the source?

If so it would be another flaw for steppe / IE / R1b, and taking into account that some months ago I was a mean "steppic" believer the number of flaws are so many that I can't realize well why only Klyosov is getting the track; by scientific inertia or by fear to be out of the mainstream?

Athiudisc
06-06-16, 17:08
In "Excavating past population structures by surname-based sampling: the genetic legacy of the Vikings in northwest England" results for Norway were 30/201 R1b and 35/201 R1a. For Iceland it was a medieval Viking colony. Scotland as Norway based much of their economies on herding so that Y-DNA IE herders would impact more there (if you take per example results from Sweden its R1a doubles R1b...); even more Scotland, was settled by Vikings also. For Lithuania it was a farmer country (high density... so more difficult to change Y-DNA) but R1a is high there.

I was simply drawing from Eupedia's own page on the subject (a bit lazy, I know), where in every country you just mentioned (save Lithuania), R1b is more common that R1a.

Norway: 32% R1b, 25.5% R1a
Iceland: 42% R1b, 23% R1a
Scotland: 72.5% R1b, 8.5% R1a
Sweden: 21.5% R1b, 16% R1a

I would note that the sample size for these results is around five times greater than the paper you mentioned, for Norway, specifically.


Of course, but the question would be to follow the reasoning: other than R1a and R1b brothers were by 20000 years in the same spot of let say 1000000 km2, R1b or R1a must have learned IE from his bro... and we know that the steppe people were already a mixed population... so R1a or R1b must have learned IE.

Why couldn't they both have been involved in the formation of PIE? I still don't understand your insistence that it had to have been one or the other.


Of course there are any, but there were; by memory: cerretani, ausetani, indigetani, ilergetani, sedetani, edetani, contestani, bastetani, cessetani, laietani, laketani, ilauragetani... all such tribes used Iberian language (non-IE) inscriptions. Actual steppe ancestry in Spaniards may come from Celts, Romans and European colonizers in the Reconquista.


Before the Roman conquest, half of Iberian population (if not more) were Non-IE tribes.

They only became IE-speakers after they adopted Latin language during Roman rules.

So, like I said, there aren't any. All are generally R1b-dominant and IE-speaking, with the obvious exception of the Basques, who are non-IE but predominantly R1b with very little R1b diversity. I fail to see how this is in any way a "red alarm" against the connection between R1b and IE.

Am I missing something obvious? Do we have a bunch of pre-IE Iberian remains that are R1b?


can you give the source for such info? take into account that an individual from Calcholithic Iberia from 3500 BC to have steppe ancestry would change absolutely everything about what it is supposed to be such "steppe ancestry"...

It was discussed here at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31558-Analysis-of-Chalcolithic-El-Portalon-samples-%28G%C3%BCnther-at-al-2015%29


One remarkable finding was that the so-called ATP3 individual, who lived circa 3516–3362 BCE, belonged to Y-haplogroup R1b1a2-M269, the main lineage of the contemporaneous Yamna culture (3600-2000 BCE) at the other extremity of Europe.

ATP3 belongs to mtDNA lineage of potential Indo-European origin: K1a2b, which is found mostly in northern Europe and Iran nowadays. ATP20 is U5a1c, a lineage now found mostly around the Baltic (Germany, Poland, Lithuania). All the other maternal lineages are typical of Iberia.

Unfortunately, the paper didn't report the admixtures for ATP3 and ATP20. But I just found that Genetiker ran the admixtures for all samples and that is extremely interesting.

Most samples are predominantly Southern European (ATP17=66.7%, Matojo=64.88%, ATP7=63.4%, ATP16=62.6%, ATP9=51.8%, ATP2=46.8%), except ATP3 and ATP20 who who have considerably less (ATP3=32.47% and ATP20=33.03%) as if they had been recently hybridized and only had half of the Iberian ancestry of other samples.

Both ATP3 and ATP20 have a higher percentage of Northern European and European Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, with an combined average of 20.5% and 23% respectively. Only ATP9 has more (32%).ATP3 (3516–3362 BCE) stands out from other samples thanks to its high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry (31.97%) against 0% for ATP20, 11% for ATP17 and between 0% and 8% for other samples. What Genetiker calls Northern Middle Eastern is what we typically referred on this forum as Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture - the same as in the "Armenian-like admixture" in Yamna samples.

In conclusion, it seems pretty clear from the autosomal analysis that ATP3 is ethnically different from other samples from Chalcolithic El Portalon, and is not a native inhabitant of Neolithic Iberia, but a recent Copper Age immigrant, although how he got there remains unclear.

I would, of course, point out that Genetiker's conclusions regarding the data were a bit different, as he's a proponent of an "R1b isn't IE/R1b is native to Europe" theory somewhat similar to yours.


European Russia has the highest, but some people don't consider Russia as part of Europe.

I honestly didn't remember Russia in the list of results I recalled. Thanks. Source?


That's very interesting in equate R1a = IE, can you provide the source?

If so it would be another flaw for steppe / IE / R1b

Again, I don't see how. Explain, please.

berun
06-06-16, 19:23
Norway: 32% R1b, 25.5% R1a
Iceland: 42% R1b, 23% R1a
Scotland: 72.5% R1b, 8.5% R1a
Sweden: 21.5% R1b, 16% R1a

You may add up Estonia with 32% R1a + 8% R1b as it has more Yamnaya DNA than Iceland, Scotland or Sweden... By the way as Yamnaya is a mix between EHG + CHG... it wouldn't be that such all tables are missing the ancient indigenous EHG factor ? As EHG is a subclade of WHG it's good to check in Eupedia: "Nowadays this admixture peaks among the Estonians (49.5%), Finns (47%), Lithuanians (46.5%), Icelanders (45.5%) and Orcadians (45.5%).", what a coincidence so... BUT as Yamnayans were half EHG / half CHG, if we assign per example to Lithuanians half of their DNA to Yamanyans we would make a gross errour (!!!) if they haven't the other half CHG.


Why couldn't they both have been involved in the formation of PIE? I still don't understand your insistence that it had to have been one or the other.

Well, Paleolithic R1b was found in the Alps, 3 Mesolithic R1a were found in North Russia, and Neolithic R1b-V88 was found in the Pyrenees... what is doubtful that they speak a related language; so R1a abd R1b had diverse languages in the Mesolithic and it is necessary to verify first that R1b and R1a were together in the same area in the Mesolithic to develop IE, otherwise one or the other was a Neolithic migrant (and as R1b is linked to the Fertile Crescent and Yamnaya received a southern migration of Caucasians, the guess is for R1b). Maybe I can't explain so well such complexity.


So, like I said, there aren't any. All are generally R1b-dominant and IE-speaking, with the obvious exception of the Basques, who are non-IE but predominantly R1b with very little R1b diversity. I fail to see how this is in any way a "red alarm" against the connection between R1b and IE.

As said the case for Basques being high in R1b and scarce in Yamnaya DNA is the red alarm. Other Iberian populations may have received much or less steppe DNA from Celts, Visigoths, Romans, Frenchs and so, but now I doubt that all DNA assigned to Yamnaya came from them or a descendent population.


ATP3 (3516–3362 BCE) stands out from other samples thanks to its high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry (31.97%) against 0% for ATP20, 11% for ATP17 and between 0% and 8% for other samples. What Genetiker calls Northern Middle Eastern is what we typically referred on this forum as Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture - the same as in the "Armenian-like admixture" in Yamna samples.

Ok, I see from where your "Yamnayans" came, and as thought, if the CHG DNA was already among Calcolithic Iberian herders EVEN BEFORE Yamnayans time and their own IE language, then you can look which value have the admixtures made about Yamnayans for actual populations or Basques.


Again, I don't see how. Explain, please.

Thinking now that R1a was the developper of IE, the fact that Russians would be high in "Yamnaya DNA" would favour such thinking as they are high in R1a also.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 20:48
Am I missing something obvious? Do we have a bunch of pre-IE Iberian remains

Yes, you are missing that Iberian population is largely descended from those people.

What did you think - that Roman settlers replaced the native population? ROTFL.

They speak a Romance language, but just like Afro-Americans speak English.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 20:53
That's very interesting in equate R1a = IE, can you provide the source?

Sources are all over the internet. Look at data from various autosomal calculators.


I honestly didn't remember Russia in the list of results I recalled.

Because it wasn't included. Neither was Poland and 90% of all European countries included.

But generally North-Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians have the highest % of Steppe ancestry.

When you look at former Corded Ware culture area, it's the same area which has high % of Steppe now.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 20:59
As for R1b - we don't even know if R1b-U106 and R1b-P312 migrated along the same route.

So far, only P312 has been found in ancient DNA from Bell Beaker culture, and not any U106.

Definitely R1a and R1b-U106 together correlate better with Steppe autosomal, than R1b-P312.

Even I1 and some subclades of I2 and N1c correlate better with Steppe autosomal, than P312.

Athiudisc
06-06-16, 21:21
You may add up Estonia with 32% R1a + 8% R1b as it has more Yamnaya DNA than Iceland, Scotland or Sweden...

Barely. They also don't speak an Indo-European language, much like Hungarians...high in R1a, compared to R1b, with more Yamnaya ancestry than, say, Ukrainians...


R1a abd R1b had diverse languages in the Mesolithic and it is necessary to verify first that R1b and R1a were together in the same area in the Mesolithic to develop IE, otherwise one or the other was a Neolithic migrant (and as R1b is linked to the Fertile Crescent and Yamnaya received a southern migration of Caucasians, the guess is for R1b).

I think you're pushing PIE back a bit far in service to your theory. The consensus at present seems to be that Indo-European was the product of the Neolithic into the Chalcolithic, in which case the idea of R1a and R1b forming it together makes complete sense. Why do you believe R1a formed it independently before absorbing R1b from the south? What evidence is there to suggest that? I would argue that because PIE had such concepts as agriculture, wheels and seafaring from the south coupled with more northerly words for environment and fauna, it's rather obvious that PIE as a tongue was the product of both peoples, coming together, or forming a sprachbund over a large, mixed area that coalesced before splitting apart. Absolutely no need nor reason to restrict it to one or the other.


As said the case for Basques being high in R1b and scarce in Yamnaya DNA is the red alarm. Other Iberian populations may have received much or less steppe DNA from Celts, Visigoths, Romans, Frenchs and so, but now I doubt that all DNA assigned to Yamnaya came from them or a descendent population.

A red alarm regarding your red alarm is the low diversity of R1b amongst Basques. Further, Basques have as much Yamnaya ancestry as Greeks, Albanians, Iberians of Romano-Celtic descent...


Ok, I see from where your "Yamnayans" came, and as thought, if the CHG DNA was already among Calcolithic Iberian herders EVEN BEFORE Yamnayans time and their own IE language, then you can look which value have the admixtures made about Yamnayans for actual populations or Basques.

The problem is that it wasn't among Chalcolithic Iberian herders, plural. It was found, with the example of ATP3, in an autosomally and patrilineally-distinct individual with obvious ancestry elsewhere. It's a red alarm regarding your red alarm.


Thinking now that R1a was the developper of IE, the fact that Russians would be high in "Yamnaya DNA" would favour such thinking as they are high in R1a also.

It's not that simple, though. You're looking for evidence after making your conclusion rather than making a conclusion based on evidence. To put it another way, if for some bizarre reason I wanted to argue that both R1a and R1b were Indo-Europeanized by someone else, I could tell you that Udmurts have even more Yamnaya ancestry than Russians, despite being dominated by Y-haplogroup N, and that, oddly-enough, other groups with relatively high-Yamnaya ancestry...Estonians and Lithuanians...actually have more N than R1a! Doesn't that favor thinking that despite the sum of all the other evidence, Yamnaya ancestry has some ancient connection to N, and R1a and R1b were simply influenced by them?

Of course it doesn't. But that's what you're doing with R1b, save in relation to R1a.

Athiudisc
06-06-16, 21:31
Yes, you are missing that Iberian population is largely descended from those people.

What did you think - that Roman settlers replaced the native population? ROTFL.

Your ROFLing is a bit premature. "Largely descended from" autosomally is not the same as related lines of uniparental markers. Further, at least half of Iberia was speaking Indo-European languages prior to the Roman expansion. Are you suggesting this was a linguistic spread without population movement? Perhaps an adoption to facilitate the spread of Indo-European technology as well? :good_job:


They speak a Romance language, but just like Afro-Americans speak English.

This would be a fine point if Romance languages were the sum of Indo-European tongues.


As for R1b - we don't even know if R1b-U106 and R1b-P312 migrated along the same route.

I tend to think not, after a certain point. Are you familiar with Iain McDonald's work in this area?

Tomenable
06-06-16, 21:35
and Lithuanians...actually have more N than R1a!

Only according to Eupedia's table.

According to Kasperaviciute et al., "Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians", they have more R1a than N1c. There is also regional variation within Lithuania - N1c is most common near the sea. The more inland you go, the more R1a there is.

Here is this paper: http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/library/papers/Kasperaviciute2004.pdf

One region of Lithuania has 62% of R1a and one has 35%, but the average nationwide frequency is 45%.

So it matters where you collect your samples. Maybe Eupedia used samples from low-R1a regions.

Athiudisc
06-06-16, 21:41
Only according to Eupedia's table.

According to Kasperaviciute et al., "Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians", they have more R1a than N1c. There is also regional variation within Lithuania - N1c is most common near the sea. The more inland you go, the more R1a there is.

I thank you, but the samples Maciamo compiled are at least twice as large and (I would hope) more recent than 2003. Still, the regional variation is interesting.

Tomenable
06-06-16, 21:44
but the samples Maciamo compiled are at least twice as large

Yet he provides no info on regional breakdown. And therefore I can't be sure that his sample is representative. As I wrote, there are large regional differences. We also don't know which Lithuanian regional group has the highest percent of Steppe admixture.

As for R1a vs. R1b in Norway and Sweden - I have seen such samples where R1a was more numerous than R1b.

Athiudisc
06-06-16, 21:45
Fair enough. It was only important as an illustration, though, not as a point of debate. :smile:

berun
07-06-16, 01:00
I think you're pushing PIE back a bit far in service to your theory. The consensus at present seems to be that Indo-European was the product of the Neolithic into the Chalcolithic, in which case the idea of R1a and R1b forming it together makes complete sense. Why do you believe R1a formed it independently before absorbing R1b from the south? What evidence is there to suggest that? I would argue that because PIE had such concepts as agriculture, wheels and seafaring from the south coupled with more northerly words for environment and fauna, it's rather obvious that PIE as a tongue was the product of both peoples, coming together, or forming a sprachbund over a large, mixed area that coalesced before splitting apart.

The PIE Language itself can give you the answers: flora and fauna as you know points to a forested area, the Russian north , where you will find also Mesolithic R1a, and such language created derived words for wheel or for yoke from the core language. When southerners arrived to the PIE homeland PIE people already were working hard. For seafaring therms... you might give some example as i have not heard none...


A red alarm regarding your red alarm is the low diversity of R1b amongst Basques. Further, Basques have as much Yamnaya ancestry as Greeks, Albanians, Iberians of Romano-Celtic descent...

The matter is that Basques speak a non IE language, are high in R1b, and have very scarce tracks of Yamnaya ancestry (which even could come to them after two millenia living with neighbours). For R1b diversity you will find out it in Anatolia...


The problem is that it wasn't among Chalcolithic Iberian herders, plural. It was found, with the example of ATP3, in an autosomally and patrilineally-distinct individual with obvious ancestry elsewhere. It's a red alarm regarding your red alarm.

By memory ATP3 was who rated higher in CHG among other three neighbours... Ancestry from elsewhere is not a problem with me in such time, as we have not yet Atlantic ancient DNA (paleo, meso, neo, calco), but it's a problem with you or those defending Yamnaya DNA there before Yamnaya itself.


You're looking for evidence after making your conclusion rather than making a conclusion based on evidence.

Well, in fact it is what i see all days when reading about steppe DNA so and so.


To put it another way, if for some bizarre reason I wanted to argue that both R1a and R1b were Indo-Europeanized by someone else, I could tell you that Udmurts have even more Yamnaya ancestry than Russians, despite being dominated by Y-haplogroup N, and that, oddly-enough, other groups with relatively high-Yamnaya ancestry...Estonians and Lithuanians...actually have more N than R1a! Doesn't that favor thinking that despite the sum of all the other evidence, Yamnaya ancestry has some ancient connection to N, and R1a and R1b were simply influenced by them?

Then at least I could say that as Udmurts and Estonians speak Uralic languages their N "Asiatic" haplo is an evidence from a late elite language change.

Athiudisc
07-06-16, 04:07
The PIE Language itself can give you the answers: flora and fauna as you know points to a forested area, the Russian north

Russian south, I'd rather say, judging by the breadth of vocabulary.


When southerners arrived to the PIE homeland PIE people already were working hard.

You don't know that R1a was PIE without R1b. You're simply continuing to assume it. The fact seems to be that by the time PIE was a thing, R1b-M269 was already there, and to date was the most common haplogroup in Yamna that we know of.


For seafaring therms... you might give some example as i have not heard none...

I'll grant that the word for "sea" might have actually described a smaller body of water, but if you can think of something else one does beyond water-travel when rowing (we still use this word's descendants in English, Frisian, Dutch, etc.) a boat (plowós), share it.


The matter is that Basques speak a non IE language, are high in R1b, and have very scarce tracks of Yamnaya ancestry (which even could come to them after two millenia living with neighbours).

Which is very easily attributable to founder effect, in contrast to the populations high in R1b that speak an Indo-European language and have more steppe ancestry. One wouldn't expect Basques to have high amounts of Yamnaya if their Y-DNA lines are the product of a relatively small group of men from thousands of years ago.


By memory ATP3 was who rated higher in CHG among other three neighbours... Ancestry from elsewhere is not a problem with me in such time, as we have not yet Atlantic ancient DNA (paleo, meso, neo, calco), but it's a problem with you or those defending Yamnaya DNA there before Yamnaya itself.

No, it's really not. As I've pointed out, it fits rather nicely.

berun
08-06-16, 20:09
Russian south, I'd rather say, judging by the breadth of vocabulary.

I think that if you would wait to see in the steppe a bear or an squirel, or to see how it grows a fir you will expend all your live...


You don't know that R1a was PIE without R1b. You're simply continuing to assume it. The fact seems to be that by the time PIE was a thing, R1b-M269 was already there, and to date was the most common haplogroup in Yamna that we know of.

You are right that Yamnaya had R1b, but a clade not related to the western R1b, and which as you complain with the Basques, don't show up so much variety.


I'll grant that the word for "sea" might have actually described a smaller body of water, but if you can think of something else one does beyond water-travel when rowing (we still use this word's descendants in English, Frisian, Dutch, etc.) a boat (plowós), share it.

you can row a boat without knowing any sea, ask to the Amazonian tribes.


One wouldn't expect Basques to have high amounts of Yamnaya if their Y-DNA lines are the product of a relatively small group of men from thousands of years ago.

I need a lot of fantasy to believe in it.


No, it's really not. As I've pointed out, it fits rather nicely.

ATP3 (3516–3362 BCE) stands out from other samples thanks to its high Northern Middle Eastern ancestry (31.97%) against 0% for ATP20, 11% for ATP17 and between 0% and 8% for other samples. What Genetiker calls Northern Middle Eastern is what we typically referred on this forum as Caucaso-Gedrosian admixture - the same as in the "Armenian-like admixture" in Yamna samples.

so
ATP3 = 32%
ATP17 = 11%
other = 0-8%

How could you explain Yamnaya ancestry in Chalcolithic Iberia (just add up the HG ancestry in ATP and you will get it)? that's not a problem for you?

Athiudisc
08-06-16, 22:40
I think that if you would wait to see in the steppe a bear or an squirel, or to see how it grows a fir you will expend all your live...

We already covered this. There are bears on the steppe, and regardless, my entire point is that PIE was formed and spread by northerly R1a and southerly R1b, as evidenced by the breadth of vocabulary (along with, obviously, genetic evidence).

Your argument, in contrast, seems to be "there are many red alarms regarding R1b clades being Indo-European despite all the evidence because I don't want to believe it." None of your "red alarms" have actually been "red alarms."


You are right that Yamnaya had R1b, but a clade not related to the western R1b, and which as you complain with the Basques, don't show up so much variety.

How are one's father and brother unrelated? L23 (found in Yamna), Z2103 (found in Yamna) and L51 (western European) all formed within a few centuries of each other. L23 preceded Z2103 and L51. The latter two are the offspring of the former. Brothers of the same father, to oversimplify, or (more realistically) cousins with the same great-grandfather.

How does one even imagine them to be "unrelated?"

You know that all of us R1b-L51 guys from Europe still carry the L23 mutation, right?


you can row a boat without knowing any sea, ask to the Amazonian tribes.

You can, but there's no reason to believe there were magical walls blocking off the Black and Caspian seas. Unless that's part of your theory...?

"The fact that they had boats, rowing, access to seas and a word for bodies of water that was later used for, as an example, the North Sea, is a red alarm because we all know that steppe-bears can't man an oar in the Black Sea because bears can't live on the steppe!"...? :innocent:


I need a lot of fantasy to believe in it.

Certainly no more than's required to ignore everything that doesn't fit in to your theory already.


How could you explain Yamnaya ancestry in Chalcolithic Iberia? that's not a problem for you?

No, eastern ancestry in ATP3 coupled with R1b, contrary to numerous other local remains, is in no way a problem for me, as it's logical given the premise you're arguing against.

berun
09-06-16, 00:42
1. Give the bears (wikipedia or travel guides not valid)
2. Give the greatfather's place taking into account that his greatgreatfather was in Italy.
3. What about the seafaring vocabulary then? If possible include sirens.
4. Ok. So Yamnayans in XXXV BC in Iberia. They camped a little afar such year, and that two centuries before they were born.
5. I don't want to believe is not an argument when some months ago i believed as you. Try another.

Athiudisc
09-06-16, 15:09
1. Give the bears (wikipedia or travel guides not valid)

You were the first one to use wiki as a source, and now it's invalid because it disagrees with you? Poor form.


2. Give the greatfather's place taking into account that his greatgreatfather was in Italy.

Great-great-great uncle a few hundred times and then some who liked exotic climes and didn't have any children we know about, more like. More time passed between Villabruna and Yamna than between Yamna and us. Further, there's a reason "massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" is a thing and "massive migration from Italy to the steppe and then back is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" isn't.


3. What about the seafaring vocabulary then? If possible include sirens.

Listen, strange women lying in ponds causing shipwrecks is no basis for a system of language dispersal.

More seriously, I cannot even begin to parse what you're about with this one. Sirens?


4. Ok. So Yamnayans in XXXV BC in Iberia. They camped a little afar such year, and that two centuries before they were born.

You'll note I said "eastern." You still haven't even begun to explain how an R1b individual with eastern ancestry somehow proves R1b didn't come from the east.


5. I don't want to believe is not an argument when some months ago i believed as you. Try another.

It's a fine argument, as it seems to be the entirety of your position.

berun
09-06-16, 17:27
You were the first one to use wiki as a source, and now it's invalid because it disagrees with you? Poor form.

If you pretend to demonstrate that bears live in steppes yes, if i try to give an example of squirrels in a forest... Wiki is a cookie for that.


Great-great-great uncle a few hundred times and then some who liked exotic climes and didn't have any children we know about, more like. More time passed between Villabruna and Yamna than between Yamna and us.

Villabruna's R1b1a didn't have any children? woo!


Further, there's a reason "massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" is a thing and "massive migration from Italy to the steppe and then back is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" isn't.

that's a call to autorithy, don't call to papa if you can't give answers for 1-4


More seriously, I cannot even begin to parse what you're about with this one. Sirens?

Well, as you know a seafaring IE vocabulary that nobody else knows i was wondering if you also was capable to find out sirens... more seriously, i might have asked for octopusses, tillers or alike.


You still haven't even begun to explain how an R1b individual with eastern ancestry somehow proves R1b didn't come from the east.

I can't deny an Eastern origin, maybe from ancient HG shared DNA with Caucasians or with herder Neolithics not tested (ie no farmers), but by sure I will not be cheated that it was from Yamnayans; you might understand that the issue is about the belief about the mighty Yamnayans, the bunch of herdsmen that changed almost all European Y-DNA.

Athiudisc
09-06-16, 19:06
If you pretend to demonstrate that bears live in steppes yes, if i try to give an example of squirrels in a forest... Wiki is a cookie for that.

I don't know what your cookie talk means, but I'm not pretending anything. The source you yourself first employed says bears can be found on the steppe. Now suddenly your source is bad because you don't want to believe it. I don't care.


Villabruna's R1b1a didn't have any children? woo!

We don't know of any. Do you? A random guy in a random place 14,000 years ago is a bit different than related subclades together thousands of years later.


that's a call to autorithy, don't call to papa if you can't give answers for 1-4

All of your "red alarms" are "calls to authority," then, even (especially) the goofy ones. Please stop with this bizarre hypocrisy. "Wiki says...I don't care what wiki says!" "Klyosov says...I don't care what anyone says, appeal to authority!" Just stop.


Well, as you know a seafaring IE vocabulary that nobody else knows

This is what I'm talking about. Because YOU are unfamiliar with PIE terms, you assume they don't exist, even though I've given you a few. It's...tiring.


i was wondering if you also was capable to find out sirens...

I am (it comes, ultimately, from PIE "ser," "to bind"), but it doesn't really matter, does it? You don't care. It doesn't fit in your theory.


more seriously, i might have asked for octopusses, tillers or alike.

So your more serious statement is something along the lines of "if there's no PIE words for creatures that don't exist in the seas we know PIEs were familiar with, this proves they didn't have water-travel beyond rivers?" That makes no sense.

As for a tiller, I think you meant a rudder, which comes from the same PIE root for "row," already discussed. A tiller is just an extended handle for a rudder; the rudder is what steers the boat.


I can't deny an Eastern origin, maybe from ancient HG shared DNA with Caucasians or with herder Neolithics not tested (ie no farmers), but by sure I will not be cheated that it was from Yamnayans; you might understand that the issue is about the belief about the mighty Yamnayans, the bunch of herdsmen that changed almost all European Y-DNA.

I honestly don't know what "I will not be cheated that it was from Yamnayans" even means.

I think we're done until more genetic evidence comes forth to support or refute one of us. At this point, you're just flailing. I have little interest in your bizarre mental gymnastics and even less in your attempts at insult.

berun
09-06-16, 20:18
OK, no answers at all for 1-4 but secondary discussions ever, it's not necessary to go on, let's wait so.

Athiudisc
09-06-16, 21:31
Your questions were addressed, you just didn't care for the answers. So yes, now we wait.

Dov
10-06-16, 04:52
Actually, there are no bears in the Volga steppes. Although some lived in Samara Bend until the 20th century. But in general, the area of their habitat farther north.
http://www.old-animal.ru/images/pic_m/map_6_7.jpg

The same applies to the Elk. They live more to the north, and are not found in south steppe.
http://s020.radikal.ru/i709/1606/bf/d6fbc7e9868b.png


Birch, probably the main tree of Indo-Europeans. Although, of course, 5,000 years ago the area was dissemination and to the south. Nevertheless, the greatest concentration of birch begins in the north.
http://s016.radikal.ru/i334/1606/6d/1bab5e352fab.jpg

All these things mean that the Indo-Europeans know about northern flora and fauna in northern locations. And probably they were there for some time. But of course it is not 100% proof of correctness.

Athiudisc
10-06-16, 15:55
Although some lived in Samara Bend until the 20th century.

Samara...why does that sound familiar? Something about R1b-M269...


All these things mean that the Indo-Europeans know about northern flora and fauna in northern locations.

Why wouldn't they?

berun
10-06-16, 17:24
The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiguli_Mountains

To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could, just those in the limit of their cultural area, the other Yamnayans inhabiting the other milion of squared kilometers of steppe would have less easy to see it and in the best case they would have a very vague idea about what kind of animal is a bear.

LeBrok
10-06-16, 17:51
The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiguli_Mountains

To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could, just those in the limit of their cultural area, the other Yamnayans inhabiting the other milion of squared kilometers of steppe would have less easy to see it and in the best case they would have a very vague idea about what kind of animal is a bear.
There you have it, the so called Steppe is not necessarily only the grassland, often it contains forested areas with bears too.

Athiudisc
10-06-16, 18:15
To see such bears the Yamnayans might cross the Volga river even, and only the northernmost Yamnayans could

Don't forget about bears to the south. If, as I'm suggesting, PIE was a fusion of northerly R1a and southerly R1b, it would only make sense for PIE to have a word for an animal that both populations were familiar with, even if said animal were uncommon to the open steppe.

berun
10-06-16, 18:33
There you have it, the so called Steppe is not necessarily only the grassland, often it contains forested areas with bears too.

It's not so, an ecosystem is an ecosystem, and such Bend is inside the forest steppe ecosystem, a dominion north of the Yamnayans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarskaya_Luka_National_Park

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_steppe

berun
10-06-16, 18:38
And this was the main region of the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture (3200 BC - 2300 BC), a culture related to CW, and the related Abashevo culture (2500 BC - 1900 BC), where I suspect was the IE / R1a Urheimat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo%E2%80%93Balanovo_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture


7774
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture)

berun
10-06-16, 21:10
Don't forget about bears to the south. If, as I'm suggesting, PIE was a fusion of northerly R1a and southerly R1b, it would only make sense for PIE to have a word for an animal that both populations were familiar with, even if said animal were uncommon to the open steppe.

A name is used if it has... a use; if in the steppes there aren't bears, people living there might lose the concept after some generations, by that Indian languages have lost many of such words, like *hekr 'maple', or by that some languages have changed the ancient meaning, as Tocharian B yal 'gazele' is derived from IE *HelHen 'red deer' and so many examples.

Athiudisc
10-06-16, 22:40
A name is used if it has... a use; if in the steppes there aren't bears, people living there might lose the concept after some generations

But there were bears upon the steppe, so it doesn't matter. No need to invent any kind of scenario to the contrary.

Again, this is going nowhere. I promise you, if evidence ever appears to support your theory that everyone else is wrong and Yamna/R1b-L23 weren't really Indo-European, I will apologize for ever doubting you.

Goga
10-06-16, 22:48
What is so special about the bears? As far as I know bears have been poplating most of the EurAsia for a very long time.

We have a lot bears in Zagros Mountains / Iranian Plateau.

Nice VIDS!!!



child bear + Kurdish child FIGHTING (playing) with each other in KURDISTAN. Really FUNNY !!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSFGdZ6zotA



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bvq2BiLIEAATgS3.jpg (https://www.google.nl/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUotnynJ7NAhWGtxQKHaJVCZ4QjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Famedmed72%2Fstatus %2F502914447539982336&psig=AFQjCNFIbBbKaYl1gbGha6hW_Xx26SmRVw&ust=1465674436747393)


http://i.milliyet.com.tr/HaberAnaResmi/2008/03/23/fft17_mf12882.Jpeg

Goga
10-06-16, 22:50
Kurdish brown bear vs. Kurdish dog PLAYING in KURDISTAN!

Brown Bear vs. dog


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xekef10TOQY

Goga
10-06-16, 22:57
So, there is nothing special about bears. Bears are not really a big deal when you are seaching for the PIE URHEIMAT, which was actually on the Iranian Plateau.

Early PIE flora & fauna is actually very similar to the Zagros Mountains/Iranian Plateau. Iranian Plateau has everything, from the steppes to very high mountains. There are rivers, high mountains, lakes, forests, steppes, eagles, falcons, all kind of mammals (bear, fox, wolf, Caspian tiger (extinct) , Asiatic lion (extinct), etc.) all kinds of EurAsian plants...

There was even a Syrian elephant in Kurdistan, but are also extinct species on the Iranian Plateau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_elephant


About the Persian tiger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger
About the Persian lion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion



Early (original) PIE migrated from the Iranian Plateau migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there they became the 'late' PIE who later migrated into Europe.


2 phases.

phase 1: early PIE from Iranian Plateau into Maykop/Yamnaya
phase 2: late PIE from Yamnaya into the Europe

Goga
10-06-16, 23:25
List of birds of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_of_Iran

List of mammals of Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_Iran


Iran has (had) EVERYTHING - TROPIC and NON-tropic, even the Iranian cheetah.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Asian_cheetah.jpg/800px-Asian_cheetah.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Asian_cheetah.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_cheetah


Persian leopard

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Persian_Leopard_sitting.jpg/800px-Persian_Leopard_sitting.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Persian_Leopard_sitting.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_leopard


Asian black bear

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Ursus_thibetanus_3_%28Wroclaw_zoo%29.JPG/450px-Ursus_thibetanus_3_%28Wroclaw_zoo%29.JPG (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Ursus_thibetanus_3_%28Wroclaw_zoo%29.JPG)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Black_bear%2C_Darjeeling_zoo.jpg/667px-Black_bear%2C_Darjeeling_zoo.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Black_bear%2C_Darjeeling_zoo.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_black_bear


" Wildlife of Iran includes its flora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora) and fauna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fauna) and their natural habitats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitats). One of the most famous members of wildlife in Iran are the world's last surviving, critically endangered Asiatic cheetah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_cheetah) (Acinonyx jubatus venaticus) also known as the Iranian cheetah, which are today found nowhere else but in Iran. Iran had lost all its Asiatic lion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion) and the now extinct Caspian tigers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger) by the earlier part of the twentieth century. The Syrian elephants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_elephant) used to live in southern parts of the country but has gone extinct as well.
Iran's wildlife is composed of several animal species including bears (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear), gazelles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazelle), wild pigs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_pig), wolves (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf), jackals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackal), panthers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera), Eurasian lynx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_lynx), and foxes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox). Other domestic animals include, sheep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep), goats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat), cattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle), horses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse), water buffalo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_buffalo), donkeys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey), and camels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel). The pheasant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheasant), partridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partridge), stork (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stork), eagles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle) and falcon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon) are also native to Iran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).

The Persian leopard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_leopard) is said to be the largest of all the subspecies of leopards in the world. The main range of this species in Iran closely overlaps with that of bezoar ibex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezoar_ibex). Hence, it is found throughout Alborz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alborz) and Zagros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains) mountain ranges, as well as smaller ranges within the Iranian plateau. The leopard population is very sparse, due to loss of habitat, loss of natural prey, and population fragmentation. Apart from bezoar ibex, wild sheep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovis), boar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar), deer (either Caspian red deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_red_deer) or roe deer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_deer)), and domestic animals constitute leopards' diet in Iran.

More than one-tenth of the country is forested. The most extensive growths are found on the mountain slopes rising from the Caspian Sea, with stands of oak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak), ash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_tree), elm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm), cypress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupressaceae), and other valuable trees. On the plateau proper, areas of scrub oak appear on the best-watered mountain slopes, and villagers cultivate orchards and grow the plane tree, poplar, willow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow), walnut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walnut), beech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech), maple (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple), and mulberry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry). Wild plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plants) and shrubs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrubs) spring from the barren land in the spring and afford pasturage, but the summer sun burns them away.

According to FAO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAO) reports, the major types of forests that exist in Iran and their respective areas are:[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Iran#cite_note-1)




Caspian forests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Hyrcanian_mixed_forests) of the northern districts (33,000 km2)
Limestone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limestone) mountainous forests in the northeastern districts (Juniperus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus) forests, 13,000 km2)
Pistachio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistachio) forests in the eastern, southern and southeastern districts (26,000 km2)
Oak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak) forests in the central and western districts (100,000 km2)
Shrubs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrub) of the Dasht-e Kavir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-e_Kavir) districts in the central and northeastern part of the country (10,000 km2)
Sub-tropical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-tropical) forests of the southern coast (5,000 km2) like the Hara forests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_forests).



More than 2,000 plant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant) species are grown in Iran. The land covered by Iran’s natural flora is four times that of the Europe’s."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_of_Iran

berun
11-06-16, 00:38
But there were bears upon the steppe, so it doesn't matter. No need to invent any kind of scenario to the contrary.

That's quite boring. I'm waiting yet to see such bears.


Again, this is going nowhere. I promise you, if evidence ever appears to support your theory that everyone else is wrong and Yamna/R1b-L23 weren't really Indo-European, I will apologize for ever doubting you.

Apologies why? It's to you if you pay attention or not to red alarms. If being one or two even i would dismiss it but being so many something must go wrong with it.

Dov
11-06-16, 03:04
Samara...why does that sound familiar? Something about R1b-M269...

Yes it's true. Therefore I mentioned.
http://www.povolzie.archeologia.ru/neo/img/01.gif

They were found in a burial lebyazhenka IV (№19 in the picture). Originally, it referred to the Elshanka Culture. It is also known that in this culture probably had the first European ceramic tableware. It would be interesting to test Y of other burial.
These examples of Elshanka ceramic from a different location(Ulyanovsk) and possibly time:
777777787776

http://www.archeo73.ru/ArcheoNeolit/Elshank11.htm

Characterized by unique features of the pattern, distinctive from other European and Central Asian ceramics. Therefore, the bringing from other culter of is disputed.

http://www.povolzie.archeologia.ru/13.htm (russian)

Dov
11-06-16, 03:11
The Samara Bend forms a forested mountainous penninsula were it would be logic to see bears: it's not a steppe.
Yes I agree. This is not a steppe. On the Volga there are places, flood plains, which quite different from the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.

LeBrok
11-06-16, 03:31
Yes I agree. This is not a steppe. On the Volga there are places, flood plains, which quite different from the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.
What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.

Dov
11-06-16, 03:47
What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.

Samara Bend over the north and closer to the forest. There begins the border of the steppe. In this case, only discuss the distribution area of the animal.

Athiudisc
11-06-16, 04:10
That's quite boring. I'm waiting yet to see such bears.

I'm sure that could be arranged on your next Russian trip. It's not really a conspiracy of bear-fanciers all lying to make you look silly, you know.


Apologies why? It's to you if you pay attention or not to red alarms. If being one or two even i would dismiss it but being so many something must go wrong with it.

Apologies for doubting you when you were right all along, of course. I see no red alarms. Those you've presented are entirely unconvincing, as I've said. But if you end up being right, you'll end up being right. :smile:

Athiudisc
11-06-16, 04:13
...the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.

Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

Dov
11-06-16, 04:32
So, there is nothing special about bears. Bears are not really a big deal when you are seaching for the PIE URHEIMAT, which was actually on the Iranian Plateau.

Early PIE flora & fauna is actually very similar to the Zagros Mountains/Iranian Plateau. Iranian Plateau has everything, from the steppes to very high mountains. There are rivers, high mountains, lakes, forests, steppes, eagles, falcons, all kind of mammals (bear, fox, wolf, Caspian tiger (extinct) , Asiatic lion (extinct), etc.) all kinds of EurAsian plants...

There's no elk (*h₄ólk̑is)
7779

and beaver (*bʰébʰrus)
7781

Moreover, the beavers were probably sacred and cult animals of Indo-Europeans.

129. 'She is clothed with garments of beaver, Ardvi Sura Anahita; with the skin of thirty beavers of those that bear four young ones, that are the finest kind of beavers; for the skin of the beaver that lives in water is the finest-colored of all skins, and when worked at the right time it shines to the eye with full sheen of silver and gold. (c) Avesta

Ardvi Sura Anahita (Godess from Avesta) probably has avatar of Volga river.

Dov
11-06-16, 05:18
Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

The Yamna Culture has been enormous over a large area. Already possibly had ethnic groups, heterogeneous, and possibly with different dialects. All the same, the original genesis of the Indo-Europeans, as well as their lexicon, need try found in older cultures, I think. Trying not to touch the discussions R1a / R1b.

Goga
11-06-16, 06:23
There's no elk(*h₄ólk̑is)
7779
and beaver(*bʰébʰrus)
7781

Moreover, the beavers were probably sacred and cult animals of Indo-Europeans.

129. 'She is clothed with garments of beaver, Ardvi Sura Anahita; with the skin of thirty beavers of those that bear four young ones, that are the finest kind of beavers; for the skin of the beaver that lives in water is the finest-colored of all skins, and when worked at the right time it shines to the eye with full sheen of silver and gold. (c) Avesta

Ardvi Sura Anahita (Godess from Avesta) probably has avatar Volga river.
Nice!


What is special about elks? What have they to do with PIE? Elks/reindeers are part of the 'deer' species. An elk is just more addapted to a colder climate. An deer does exist on the Iranian Plateau and Zagros Mountains (Kurdistan). Also, the Iranian Plateau borders Central Asia and China. Elks do exist in Central Asia and China. So why do you think that 'elks' are only exclusive to Volga? Btw, 'elk' in Kurdish (West Iranian) has a different name: "Şivira kedî" https://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Eivira_ked%C3%AE



About the 'beaver'.

There are 3 possibilities.

a) it has been wrongly translated. Maybe they meant 'tiger' since it has been called almost the same.
b) beavers existed on the Iranian Plateau, but they are extinct now. Like this article is suggesting. : http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l

and according this source: "Family Castoridae: beaver (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l). Once resident in Iran, as recently as the Neolithic, it has reentered the country from the Caucasus."

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mammals-01-iran-afghanistan-ca


or


c) remember that Zoroastrian Avesta was written by the East Iranian folks. They were already nowhere near to the PIE roots (Yamnaya). And especially NOTHING to do with Slavs. According the East Iranian folks, their "ARYAN'' URHEIMAT was somewhere on the Iranian Plateau. They mention even the area/place in their book.

I doubt Avesta has anything to do with Volga. Avesta was actually very close and similar to the Mesopotamia. Those who wrote Avesta were actually already different from the PIE source.

East Iranian folks lived around BMAC. BMAC borders Central Asia and even China. Why is it not possible that they were know with this beaver mammal from their neighbouring areas like Central Asia and China.


There was already 2000 years of space and time between those East Iranian who wrote Avesta and late PIE from Maykop/Yamnaya.

Actually there is less of time and space between East Iranians of BMAC who wrote Avesta and Iranians who lived in the tenth century.

Remember that the 'beaver testicles' were used as medicine in Iran already during in the tenth century. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037887410200377X


Do you think those Iranians who used 'beaver testicles' as medicine came from Volga? Same can be explained by East Iranian from BMAC. Has absolutely nothing to do with Volga.

Beaver is native all over the northern part of Eurasia, Central Asia up to China. And those regions are neighboring ancient BMAC where East Iranian folks were from.



I mean peacock is very sacred in my native (current) West Iranian religion. And nowadays peacock is also not really native to Kurdistan. Peacock is native to Gedrosia/India. That doesn;t mean that my religion is from India. My religion (the Yezidism) is actually native to the Mesopotamia.




+ There were 2 developments of PIE. Ancient one around Leyla-Tepe that migrated into Maykop and the later one was around Maykop/Yamnaya. It is possible that the beaver was adopted into the Iranian vocabulary later from Central Asia or maybe from the Caucasus, though. Or maybe it is from the NEOLITHIC times...

Dov
11-06-16, 08:13
Nice!

b) beavers existed on the Iranian Plateau, but they are extinct now. Like this article is suggesting. : http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l

and according this source: "Family Castoridae: beaver (http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l). Once resident in Iran, as recently as the Neolithic, it has reentered the country from the Caucasus."

Well, he touched some piece of northern Iran, extending from the Volga in favorable moments of maximum settlement. But is not autochthon there.
7782



I doubt Avesta has anything to do with Volga. Avesta was actually very close and similar to the Mesopotamia. Those who wrote Avesta were actually already different from the PIE source.

Well, some things Avesta point to the Volga. There is nothing surprising:

4. 'All the shores of the sea Vouru-Kasha are boiling over, all the middle of it is boiling over, when she runs down there, when she streams down there, she, Ardvi Sura Anahita, who has a thousand cells and a thousand channels: the extent of each of those cells, of each of those channels is as much as a man can ride in forty days, riding on a good horse. (c) Avesta

Vouru-Kasha mean Caspian Sea
Ardvi Sura Anahita mean Volga
Thousand cells and a thousand channels mean Volga Delta
7783



It is possible that the beaver was adopted into the Iranian vocabulary later from Central Asia or maybe from the Caucasus.

The beaver could not be be adopted from other. This word "beaver" (eng), "bieber" (ger), "bobr" (rus), babhru's (sanskrit) still sounds a similar way from the Britain to India. So, this word was in the lexicon of the original Proto-IE.

berun
11-06-16, 09:50
What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.

I can't answer that as I don't know if the Yamnayans were kiked off by their northern neighbours, if they were not able to pay the visas, or if forested areas were not suitable for their economy... the true case is that Yamnaya culture reachs where the Steppe reachs, and in the steppe there aren't bears, squirels, firs and so many (the same for deserts or river forests). Red alarm so.

berun
11-06-16, 09:54
I'm sure that could be arranged on your next Russian trip. It's not really a conspiracy of bear-fanciers all lying to make you look silly, you know.

It's the fifth or sixth time that you don't come with a steppe bear but instead you come to secondary discussions or ad hominem attacks even. I suppose that you wasted so much time googling "bear" and "steppe" without results... you can try with *Helew 'juniper' or *Heiwos 'yew', maybe you are more lucky in these cases.

berun
11-06-16, 10:18
Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

Do you now that we are speaking about a river bend? (a river quite wide otherwise). Just in the northern limit of the steppes and the Yamnaya culture (one milion square kilometers).


7784

Do you know that Italian has not native words for alpine ibex (stambecco), chamois (camoscio), stoat (ermellino) or marmot (marmotta)? animals living in the Alps of Italy itself? What do you think what would happen to Yamnayans living 300 km south of such river bend about bears and other forest flora and fauna?

Taranis
11-06-16, 12:47
The beaver could not be be adopted from other. This word "beaver" (eng), "bieber" (ger), "bobr" (rus), babhru's (sanskrit) still sounds a similar way from the Britain to India. So, this word was in the lexicon of the original Proto-IE.

There's also Latin "fiber" (PIE word-initial *bh- yields *f- in the Italic languages, see also English "brother" versus Latin "frater").

Goga
11-06-16, 13:40
Well, some things Avesta point to the Volga. There is nothing surprising:

4. 'All the shores of the sea Vouru-Kasha are boiling over, all the middle of it is boiling over, when she runs down there, when she streams down there, she, Ardvi Sura Anahita, who has a thousand cells and a thousand channels: the extent of each of those cells, of each of those channels is as much as a man can ride in forty days, riding on a good horse. (c) Avesta

Vouru-Kasha mean Caspian Sea
Ardvi Sura Anahita mean Volga
Thousand cells and a thousand channels mean Volga Delta
7783
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Beaver thing is not any evidence for anything. As far as I know Zoroastrianism has no links with the 'Volga area' north of the Caspian. But Zoroastrian Avesta written by East Iranian people from BMAC is actually linked to the Mesopotamia. To the Median Magi and the Mesopotamian deities. It has nothing to do with Volga.

I mean Zarathustra was born on the Iranian Plateau, nowhere near of Volga.


Avesta writings have nothing to do with Sanscrit. Sanscrit was used by proto-Vedic folks.


And what has Avesta to do with PIE? Avesta Zoroastrian books were written by late EAST Iranian folks from BMAC. After the Medes ruled the Iranian Plateau and during the Persian rule in Iran. According to their own Avesta writings their original homeland 'Aryana' is on the Iranian Plateau. http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm


In West Iranian Kurdish language 'beaver' means 'qûndûz', I guess it is a loanword from Turkic. Turkic URHEIMT was familiar with beaver. But this doesn't mean that Kurmanji is from the Altai or something...

Athiudisc
11-06-16, 16:55
ad hominem attacks

This is pointless hypocrisy.

LeBrok
11-06-16, 17:52
Samara Bend over the north and closer to the forest. There begins the border of the steppe. In this case, only discuss the distribution area of the animal.Yes, but we are also discussing possibility of steppe dwellers to come in contact with animals of all near by ecosystems. Knowing mobility of steppe people it wasn't a problem. At around 4-3 k BC they started to ride horse and became even more mobile. In this case we can easily assume that they came in contact with all the animals of Central Eurasia of time of Yamnaya and before IE expansion.

LeBrok
11-06-16, 17:55
I can't answer that as I don't know if the Yamnayans were kiked off by their northern neighbours, if they were not able to pay the visas, or if forested areas were not suitable for their economy... the true case is that Yamnaya culture reachs where the Steppe reachs, and in the steppe there aren't bears, squirels, firs and so many (the same for deserts or river forests). Red alarm so. Yes berun, steppe is steppe, bear is a bear, people are people, lead is lead and everything has its right places.

berun
13-06-16, 00:04
This is pointless hypocrisy.

I give you allways info and you come with insults. That's a typical reaction from somebody without arguments, only verbal or physical violence is left to shut up the other. I say you that usualy it's a reaction based mainly in fear, fear to the possibility to receive menaces over the own beliefs. Yamnaya's theory is self sustained and has a sense so I understand that people could be confortable with that as somehow i was before, but insulting is a evidence that what i'm exposing is a kind of menace over your beliefs, confort and selfconfidence. So to me you are not ready for scientific debate. Farewell.

Athiudisc
13-06-16, 15:27
Oh, please. Again, nothing but hypocrisy. You cite a source, but insist it isn't good when it disagrees with you. You make mention of a paper, but anyone else referencing published works are "calling to papa." And when I get tired of your method of "debate," you accuse me of engaging in it myself.

If insults are "a typical reaction from somebody without arguments," and "insulting is evidence that what I'm exposing is a kind of menace over your beliefs," you lost early in the thread. I was nice enough to assume it was an effect of your poor English, but I was obviously mistaken; it's just your personality. And by your own criteria, you have nothing but fear that you're wrong and an unreadiness for debate.

berun
13-06-16, 22:58
I can be much or less defective in english language, but the problem is more deep than that as i used to think that everybody can distingish between insulting and irony. Fine then. Farewell.

berun
24-06-16, 18:28
Even if the blogger (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/the-kurgan-hypothesis-is-dead/)is not contrary to accept R1b = IE, what he explains is how Yamnaya can't be the source for IE...


None of them belonged to R1a, and it was R1a people who spoke a language ancestral to the satem Indo-European languages, which include the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. None of them belonged to R1b1a2a1-L51, and it was R1b-L51 people who spoke a language ancestral to the Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages. So we know that four huge branches of the Indo-European language family were not derived from the people of the Yamna culture.


While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103. R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe. And of course that other part of Europe was Western Europe. There’s no doubt that R1b-L51 originated in Western Europe, because the highest frequencies of the R1b-L51* paragroup are found in France and Ireland.

To add up to this that CW was R1a as also were the post-Yamnaya steppe cultures

MOESAN
24-06-16, 21:47
Yamnaya (East) did not expand westwards, it seems clear enough. But if I'm not wrong it's a "M269 son" and even "L23 son" as L51. We need other Yamnaya Y-haplos. The known Yamnaya ones were maybe overdrown by other "brother" iigneages of R1b (not sure) and surely by R1a bearers close to Corded-Battle Axes? Nothing proving Yamnaya was not I-E at this stage.

Athiudisc
24-06-16, 23:52
It seems a bit unlikely that a man (let's call him L23) had a great-great-grandson (let's call him Z2103) and another great-great-grandson (let's call him L51) two-thousand miles apart from each other over six-thousand years ago. Not impossible, sure, but that's a long way to resettle in less than a century. YFull puts the two younger clades as contemporaneous, around 6,300 years ago.

Genetiker's theory ignores the fact that modern distribution isn't indicative of origin, especially given known population movements in eastern Europe in historical times that would tend to obfuscate the existence of previous groups. It also ignores the fact that our Yamna samples are from a very small portion of a rather large horizon. This is just another iteration of their "R1b were the megalithic people from an Iberian refugium" idea, an idea popular a decade ago but largely abandoned today due to genetic evidence.

MOESAN
25-06-16, 01:06
Concerning Genetiker, if I'm interested in some of his poolings, I don't follow his opinions about R1b born in Paleo West Europe, with my present knowledge (of absence of).
Concerning L23, L51 and Z2103, don't find my reasoning is so wrong. I think as others L23 was well settled at some stage in Eastern Europe-Central Eurasia, rather North the Caucasus, so at the center of the total amplitude and I don't see why the fact L51 and Z2103 were contemporeanous and (supposed) far one from another could contradict that. By the fact, they were not so far, because at evidence L51 was Eastern Euro too. I don't rely too much upon too precise datations, that said it seems there is some accord about a recent demographic "boom" for Y-R1a and Y-R1b which could check the period between 4500 and 1300 BC, surely Chalco-Bronze Age.

berun
25-06-16, 10:57
What be have now "sure" is that L51 was concealed somewhere, you think that in the steppes by geographic proximity, but it is possible also that they were concealed in the west from a mesolithic population or even in a neolithic population; in fact now I'm more near for the last option after looking at data: we see now how from south Caucasus there was migration to the steppes (with the Kura-Araxes R1b?), how from Levant there was a migration to Africa (R1b-V88), and how there was also R1b among Cardials (but V88)... and precisely this one was found in a cave among other two non-G2a men, in a valley historicaly being of herding economy (but nowadays it's cultivated American crops as potatoes and maize); we can miss other herder R1b unsampled as Neolithic samples come from farmer populations, and herdsmen were a minority by then (but Megalithism or Bell Beaker, cultures linked to herdsmen, would have changed proportions). Of course there are other many secondary evidences that point to a west origin for R1b and which give doubts about R1b in the steppes.

As for the "father" L23, we see actual concentration in... Caucasus... were also it is found ancient R2, so that now all arrows point to Anatolia / Caucasus as the origin of all R1b (also the Villabruna guy had a levantine component or so)

7817

berun
27-06-16, 09:10
There's another blogger doubting the "steppe R1b":

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2016/01/basque-r1b-df27.html


The claims about this major European lineage being original from Central Europe or even Eastern Europe are totally inconsistent with the data we have: they are nothing but wishful Indoeuropeanist thinking and totally within the realm of pseudoscience.

In fact, other than the locality of the "L-51 family", it has no sense to find R1b Bell Beakers in Germany almost just arrived and to pretend that they lost all their original Y-DNA for the local in few generations.

Tomenable
27-06-16, 10:27
The blogger cited by Berun wrote:


While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103

This may be true regarding L51*, but remember that P312 and U106 branches of R1b are all L11+.

And it seems that L11 (aka L151) is at least 900 years younger (TMRCA) than its "father" subclade L51.

L51(xL11) is rather very rare today, the majority of West European R1b belongs to L11+ subclades.

berun
27-06-16, 16:24
The date of L51 being 5600-3900 BC is inside the time of neolithization and megalithism in Western Europe, if L11 appeared 900 years after it would be more near to the Megalithic expansion than to the Bell Beaker one.

And as for the Bell Beaker samples of around 2500 BC, this people had a CW substrate, which was mainly R1a, but if I follow R1b = IE i would need to think that their previous Neolithic Y-DNA changed absolutely in few generations, and what is more incredible, the Y-DNA that was imposded over them was from a rare clade in CW, so i can't, i can't with that.

Thereafter we have L51 in countries high in L11+, not in the steppes but precisely were the western R1b is strong: Ireland, France, Italy, Portugal...
how to deal with it if it appeared 7000 years ago in the steppe? I would not say it is pseudoscience, but realy it has no sense at all.

7820

Athiudisc
27-06-16, 20:36
Another "R1b is from a western European refugium dating to the last Ice Age!" blogger finds the steppe-origin of IE R1b doubtful? This is absolutely shocking information! What a red alarm!

:laughing:

berun
27-06-16, 23:13
be happy my friend

:29:

Tomenable
27-06-16, 23:44
"R1b is from a western European refugium dating to the last Ice Age!"

Impossible IMO. But I wouldn't exclude Balkan Ice Age refugium at this point.

(Villabruna was probably a singleton in Italy, who came from the Balkans).

I suppose that the Varna culture could be R1b-dominated, but we will see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

johen
28-06-16, 00:01
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture
But it was not the burial type of steppe R1b
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Or_de_Varna_-_N%C3%A9cropole.jpg

Cato
28-06-16, 00:44
I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers. Physical anthropology show that the Dinaric type, strongly associated everywhere in Europe with the Beakers, first appeared in Spain/Portugal in the copper age.

https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bitstream/10316.2/35195/1/CAPvol7f_6.pdf?ln=en

IMO they acquired steppe-like dna after they mixed heavily with the Corded people in Germany..

will see..

johen
28-06-16, 01:14
I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers. Physical anthropology show that the Dinaric type, strongly associated everywhere in Europe with the Beakers, first appeared in Spain/Portugal in the copper age.

https://digitalis-dsp.uc.pt/bitstream/10316.2/35195/1/CAPvol7f_6.pdf?ln=en

IMO they acquired steppe-like dna after they mixed heavily with the Corded people in Germany..

will see..

Was it possible for R1b guy to come alone in Spain 5,000bc, even if the other non-indigenous y chromosomes were found there?
2xQ, R1b-v88, R1a, O2b were found in there 5,000bc. I don't think they all gathered around Spain from Near East, Central Asia, East Asia. I think they were coming together.

Athiudisc
28-06-16, 03:06
I wouldn't exclude Balkan Ice Age refugium at this point.

Nor I.


I agree with those who say that R1b came in the Iberian peninsula from the Near East and then expanded from there to Central Europe with the Bell Beakers.

I don't find it unlikely that some R1b arrived this way, but I don't believe it's that simple. I'm still thinking some came in through the north.

berun
28-06-16, 13:13
Another "yellow alarm" lighted after looking at the ADMIXTURE results provided in The genetics of an early Neolithic pastoralist from the Zagros, Iran (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/18/059568).

7821

Andronovo and Sintashta are showing Anatolia_Neolithic admixture not found among Yamnayans; of course the same admixture is found among CW. Two options are left so: CW founded Sintashta, or the Sintashta people had a substrate with Anatolian_N genes... of course the last option is not supported and the first option favours:


Sintashta material culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_culture) shows the influence of the late Abashevo culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture), a collection of Corded Ware settlements in the forest steppe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_steppe) zone north of the Sintashta region that were also predominantly pastoralist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastoralism).[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture#cite_note-Anthony_2007_pp._385-388-7) Allentoft et al. (2015) found close autosomal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AuDNA) genetic relationship between peoples of Corded Ware culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) and Sintashta culture, which "suggests similar genetic sources of the two," and may imply that "the Sintashta derives directly from an eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples."

So what? Indoeuropeans without Yamnayans? realy? Moreover CW was R1a as were almost all Sintashta and Andronovo samples, R1a.

Athiudisc
28-06-16, 16:16
If Sintashta was a development of CW, of course they'd have the farmer substrate that CW had as a result of Yamnayans mixing with European farmers. It would be odd if they didn't.

CW wasn't all R1a. We have at least three R1bs popping up from Poland to Sweden in CW thus far. The only one we can refine down is the U106 from southern Sweden, which makes sense given the obvious relationship between U106 and Germanic languages.

My thoughts at present are that, generally speaking, U106 spread along the north (Yamnaya->CW) and P312 more southerly (Yamnaya->Vucedol->BB). Not entirely discretely or without overlap, but still.

In any event, none of it means "Indo-Europeans without Yamnaya," as CW most definitely has a rather large chunk of Yamnayan ancestry...

Tomenable
28-06-16, 20:56
CW wasn't all R1a. We have at least three R1bs popping up from Poland to Sweden in CW thus far.

Only one R1b from CW - the one from Sweden (U106) - is a safe one.

The 2nd one is low-quality (like ATP3 from Spain), and the 3rd one is a false R1b, which was in fact R1a-M198*:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5605-R1b-in-Corded-Ware&p=125343&viewfull=1#post125343

Quote:
=================
"Mathieson et al are wrong. I1534 is not R1b. CTS11468 and many other R1b specific SNPs are negative for this sample.

I1534 has the following negative R1b SNPs:

L1349/PF6268/YSC0000231-
CTS2702/PF6099/Z8132-
CTS2703-
L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224-
CTS9018/FGC188/PF6484-
CTS2466/PF6453-
CTS2704/PF6100-
CTS8052/FGC45/PF6473-
L749/PF6476/YSC0000290-
PF6496/YSC0000213-
L1350/PF6505/YSC0000225-
PF6507-
CTS11468/FGC49/PF6520-
CTS12972/FGC52/PF6532-

CTS11468 is a mutation from “G” to “T”. All R1b1a2 (R-M269) have “T” in this position. I1534 has 1”G” read.

I am looking at the actual reads from bam files.

It is easy to explain.

A difference between Reference Sequence and Sample Sequence can arise in 2 cases

1) Ancestral (RS) -> Derived (SS) [positive SNP in SS]
2) Ancestral (SS) -> Derived (RS) [negative SNP in SS]

If there are no differences between Reference Sequence and Sample Sequence that can mean

3) Ancestral -> Derived (RS) = Derived (SS) [positive SNP in SS]
4) Ancestral (RS) = Ancestral (SS) -> Derived [negative SNP in SS]

Probably you know that Reference Sequence is a mix from the actual R1b-P312 (mainly) and G sequences.

As a result, the most of R1b1a2 specific SNPs belong to the variant 3. But in case of CTS11468 we see the variant 2.

However, Mathieson et al have recorded it wrongly as the variant 1."
==================
End of quote

Also:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1534/


I1534 Germany Corded Ware R1a1a-M198* calls

Y-SNP calls for I1534

Below are the Y-SNP calls for I1534, a Corded Ware sample from Germany. Positive calls are in bold, and negative calls are in non-bold.

The calls show that I1534 belonged to Y haplogroup R1a1a-M198*.

Cato
28-06-16, 22:06
Was it possible for R1b guy to come alone in Spain 5,000bc, even if the other non-indigenous y chromosomes were found there?
2xQ, R1b-v88, R1a, O2b were found in there 5,000bc. I don't think they all gathered around Spain from Near East, Central Asia, East Asia. I think they were coming together.

Did they find R1a in neolithic Spain?


I don't find it unlikely that some R1b arrived this way, but I don't believe it's that simple. I'm still thinking some came in through the north.

What we know is that in the Copper Age there has been movements of "prospectors" (metal seekers) from the Near East to Spain but also in Italy (Rinaldone culture, Gaudo culture etc.)..they are clearly distinguishable from the previous inhabitants of southern Europe (mediterraneans)..they were taller and brachycephals (armenoids/dinarics, like the later Beakers). My thought is that they carried a variety of Haplogroups (not just R1b but also J and others) and for some reason R1b became dominant in Spain and then expanded east with the Beakers.

I don't find unlikely the other option too (that R1b was brought in Europe by the Yamna culture) but at the moment i tend to favor the old theory (Bell Beakers as an intrusive population from the west with near eastern origins)

Tomenable
28-06-16, 22:21
Did they find R1a in neolithic Spain?

I don't know anything about this. From which study are these samples mentioned by Johen?

johen
28-06-16, 22:35
I don't know anything about this. From which study are these samples mentioned by Johen?
This is not? I misunderstood?
https://s32.postimg.org/apn4cvpmd/image.png
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Athiudisc
28-06-16, 23:00
Oh, ye anonymous unhelpful vote. :rolleyes2:


Only one R1b from CW - the one from Sweden (U106) - is a safe one.

The 2nd one is low-quality (like ATP3 from Spain), and the 3rd one is a false R1b, which was in fact R1a-M198*:

Fair enough on the M198. If we're going to accept ATP3, though, as we tend to do, that brings us down to two CW R1b. Still a minority, but not absent.

Tomenable
29-06-16, 08:20
This is not? I misunderstood?

It is not. First of all - this is just one person, so it can be only one haplogroup.

And "F (xG, I1, I2a, J, L1b2, T, O2b, Q1a2a, Q1b1, R1a1a, R1b1c2)" means, that this sample is some kind of F (note: around 3/4 of human Y-DNA is F, because most of Non-African haplogroups are descended from F), but it is not G, not I1, not I2a, not J, not L1b2, etc. This "x" in front of G, I1, I2a... means "not" (or "negative for").

This sample, can be for example F* ("*" meaning basal, so without any further mutations - actual, genuine F), H, K*, I2b, I2c, L1a, some kind of O (but not O2b), some kind of Q (but not Q1a2a or Q1b1), some R1a*, some R1b (but not R1b1c2), R2, etc. It can be anything, except for those haplogroups listed there as negative.

Check this tree of haplogroups showing which is descended from which:

http://s32.postimg.org/k8goin551/YDNA_Tree.png

Tomenable
29-06-16, 08:28
Genetiker didn't test this F (sample I0411), but he tested sample I0410, also from Els Trocs:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/analyses-of-an-early-neolithic-genome-from-spain/

berun
30-06-16, 19:29
Let's add another paradox, aka "yellow alarm" for the Yamnayans...:

German Bell Beakers in the context of the prehistoric Near East (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/german-bell-beakers-in-context-of.html)

Eurogenes/Davidsky and Ryukendo have found that the German BB had some 1/4 or 1/3 of Iberian_Chalco. The autosomal data fits finely with the paper exposing the mtDNA H1 and H3 expansion from Iberian BB. Only the Y-DNA is lacking to confirm what archaeology, mtDNA and aDNA are showing us.

I bet that before this year will end there will be Yamnayists proposing that the coast R1b Yamnayans got into their chariots and sailed on them till reaching Iberia, oh yeah.

Angela
30-06-16, 20:14
Let's add another paradox, aka "yellow alarm" for the Yamnayans...:

German Bell Beakers in the context of the prehistoric Near East (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/german-bell-beakers-in-context-of.html)

Eurogenes/Davidsky and Ryukendo have found that the German BB had some 1/4 or 1/3 of Iberian_Chalco. The autosomal data fits finely with the paper exposing the mtDNA H1 and H3 expansion from Iberian BB. Only the Y-DNA is lacking to confirm what archaeology, mtDNA and aDNA are showing us.

I bet that before this year will end there will be Yamnayists proposing that the coast R1b Yamnayans got into their chariots and sailed on them till reaching Iberia, oh yeah.

No need for that; some people have proposed for years that R1b bearing people from the steppe, via the Carpathian basin, sailed to Iberia, bringing copper metallurgy there.

See: Ancestral Journeys, by Jean Manco
http://epubbookonline.com/book/9733/p/13

"The search for copper had spread westwards along the Mediterranean by the end of the 4th millennium BC. The earliest known copper mine and metallurgical complex in France is in the mountains of Languedoc at Cabrières and Péret.At around the same time a rich Copper Age culture appeared in Iberia, accompanied by social changes. The earliest dates of copper-working there (c. 3100 BC) are for specialized, large-scale mining-metallurgical factories in southwestern Iberia, such as Cabezo Jure and Mocissos. Yet the two foci for Copper Age Iberia became the lofty, fortified settlements of Zambujal (Torres Vedras, Portugal) and Los Millares (Almería, Spain). Both were distant from the main sources of copper. Both were set on promontories commanding approaches by river or sea. Zambujal and its satellites had the more easily defended position on a peninsula carved out by the great River Tagus where it met the sea. Ease of defence was combined with ease of access from the ocean. The Tagus estuary formed a natural harbour, and Zambujal itself once had a channel to the sea close by. The position speaks of a seaborne people, anxious to defend itself. Both Zambujal and Los Millares began as small strongholds, and expanded with the creation of new walls enclosing larger areas: four walls have been discovered at Zambujal. There is ample evidence of warfare in weaponry and death by violence.
There are also clues to clannishness in enigmatic plaques found in burials, whose markings may record the lineage of the dead. When copper-working appears around the Tagus, so do artificial cave-tombs. Around Los Millares we see the emergence of the beehive tomb or tholos, with a circular chamber and corbelled vaulted roof. Gold and ivory, statues and jewelry found in such tombs suggest wealth. We can build a picture of heavily defended centres of regional power. Yet even the two largest Iberian settlements are more like defended villages than truly urban. There is no sign of public buildings in Los Millares. [] Essentially it was a collection of dwellings for farming folk. Craftwork was mainly carried out on a small scale in the home."

"Where had the copper technology come from? Claims have been made for an independent discovery of metallurgy in Iberia, but there is no evidence of a long period of experimentation. Metal objects from Zambujal were made of copper and an arsenic-copper alloy. Higher levels of arsenic, which produces a harder metal, were found in objects such as daggers, which require a hard edge. So the incorporation of arsenic was no accident. Metalworking had arrived in Iberia in a sophisticated form. As we shall see (), the evidence points to people whose origins lay on the European steppe."
This is the map showing the route:
http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

It was discussed on this site all the way back in 2013:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28899-New-migration-map-of-haplogroup-R1b/page3

MOESAN
30-06-16, 23:11
Let's add another paradox, aka "yellow alarm" for the Yamnayans...:

German Bell Beakers in the context of the prehistoric Near East (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/german-bell-beakers-in-context-of.html)

Eurogenes/Davidsky and Ryukendo have found that the German BB had some 1/4 or 1/3 of Iberian_Chalco. The autosomal data fits finely with the paper exposing the mtDNA H1 and H3 expansion from Iberian BB. Only the Y-DNA is lacking to confirm what archaeology, mtDNA and aDNA are showing us.

I bet that before this year will end there will be Yamnayists proposing that the coast R1b Yamnayans got into their chariots and sailed on them till reaching Iberia, oh yeah.

We have to be cautious: some decennies can change everything concerning cultures. And we have not (I have not, at least) the precise subclades of a lot of Iberian and Germany BBs mt-H; concerning mt-H1 I'm ready to believe they were since a long time in Iberia, for the others I don't know. Have we big differences in auDNA and mt-DNA between Iberia and Germany LN before Steppics first introgressions of some importance? BBs auDNA show a bit less EEF than auDNA of Halberstadt LN, Albersted LN and Benzigenrode LN, and even if some of its WHG id from Iberia, it cannot go very high.
The differences between females lignages and autosomes between Germany BBs and CWC could be due to both having taken local females on different routes in addition to their own females (BBs less proper females?). The Desideri 's survey based upon discrete traits of teeth was not so decisive spite some clues: a 'mediterranean' imput from Iberia into S-France and partially Switzerland and Hungary (for S-France I think a close pop already in place, and with later moves on every direction. Desideria thinks some N-BBs were accultured CWC.
&: We have rising of mt-H in N-Central Bs but what kind of mt-H?

berun
01-07-16, 00:42
@Angela

First notice about.... "that", as much as I red in peer per viewed papers it was an speculation about a possible Aegean influence in SE Spain (Millares, Argar). For steles there are among Mayans, Chinese, etc. Are related? I would say no, of course...

Even late Neolithics had their own anthropomorphic stelae (masculine and femenine), you can check here

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Cypsela/article/view/285651/373623

so what? I will go to say that IE and Yamnayans came from Iberia? Frankly I'm not good telling jokes.

Abouth smithers... I don't know from where the knowledge arrived, but I can't imagine thousends and thousends of smithers arriving by boat from somewhere and changing in such impressive way the DNA. I think we are importing now Indian programmers and mathemacians by plane... let's see how this migration will end up...
;)

Greying Wanderer
01-07-16, 11:32
I tend to agree with the stelae map linked by Angela although I wonder if there were three routes to the west from the original source
1) maritime to iberia
2) danubian to rhine mouth
3) north of the carpathians to the baltic

the adna in each case may vary as a result of mixing with different people along the way

(further finds of R1b in the west may change this though)

Angela
01-07-16, 17:53
@Angela

First notice about.... "that", as much as I red in peer per viewed papers it was an speculation about a possible Aegean influence in SE Spain (Millares, Argar). For steles there are among Mayans, Chinese, etc. Are related? I would say no, of course...

Even late Neolithics had their own anthropomorphic stelae (masculine and femenine), you can check here

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Cypsela/article/view/285651/373623

so what? I will go to say that IE and Yamnayans came from Iberia? Frankly I'm not good telling jokes.

Abouth smithers... I don't know from where the knowledge arrived, but I can't imagine thousends and thousends of smithers arriving by boat from somewhere and changing in such impressive way the DNA. I think we are importing now Indian programmers and mathemacians by plane... let's see how this migration will end up...
;)

The purpose of the post was to let you know that the proposal for Yamnaya related genetic intrusion into Iberia to account for "Beaker" culture was made long ago, and is memorialized in a book Jean Manco published relatively recently. So, no need to wait for someone to come up with a theory; the theory already exists.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17573854-ancestral-journeys

It's indeed speculation but I think she would insist it's informed speculation. It does include an analysis purporting to show a resemblance between these specific stelae and those on the steppe. We're all free to be persuaded or not by her argument. Since ancient dna results are supposedly on the way we should know soon if it makes any sense. To validate her theory there would need to be R1b in the first copper working sites that show evidence of foreign intrusion that was not there before.

berun
01-07-16, 23:58
It can't be stablished a migration route by a unique cultural item which moreover is prone to be copied or imitated; even if this theory would have checked typologies and datations (what about the Megalithic dates in Iberia uh?), this is not a valid argument; to put even more clear i consider such kind of theories like those linking Pyramids all over the world and Atlantis... which may spound good for those with Atlantitis but not so much for me.

berun
28-09-16, 14:26
We propose an additional, yet unde-
scribed, gene flow process from Anatolia into Europe as a better
explanation than a contribution from a hypothetical third source
into Neolithic central Anatolia, Chalcolithic northwest Anatolia,
and Chalcolithic central Europe. Thus, Neolithic population dy-
namics that initiated in the Anatolian region resulted in multiple
waves of expansion and admixture in west Eurasia.

The migration took place with the first neolithic herders (less proportion than farmers)? or it arrived in a second wave? In whichever case another problem for Yamnayans... morover if such second wave reached them (less complicated access than Italy) and even surpassed their territory......... because if so all yamnayan genes in Europe would be a fake imitation of the new wave plus central Europe migrations here and there.

Olympus Mons
28-09-16, 18:28
The migration took place with the first neolithic herders (less proportion than farmers)? or it arrived in a second wave? In whichever case another problem for Yamnayans... morover if such second wave reached them (less complicated access than Italy) and even surpassed their territory......... because if so all yamnayan genes in Europe would be a fake imitation of the new wave plus central Europe migrations here and there.

Hi Berun,
When I tried to say sort of that to Davidsky at Eurogenes e got berzerk.
In my thread about non metric dental I tried to explain how that very good proxy for genetics stipulates a migratory event from earlier than 8000bc from the baltic to Stepped. Karelia had the same EHG as Samara HG, and even in Baraba forrest (other side of Urals) and south Turkmenistan they show up.
In case of a migratory event of CHG and anatolia component to already existing EHG in eastearn Europe leaves what for Yamnaya?

berun
28-09-16, 22:20
Maybe the best would be to run how would appear Southafrican coloreds with Dominican mulattos, two unrelated populations but surely sharing between them more genes than with Caucasians. That could explain the fact that Haak advised that the Corded Ware people derived from a Yamnayan-alike population. Big trouble: genetics are against Yamnaya, R1a expansion is against Yamnaya, proto-IE ecosystem is against Yamnaya, demographics are agasint Yamnaya, archaeology can't provide serious proofs for Yamnayans other than Afanasievo protoTurks, etc.

The best in this science is that in few months much will be settled down and in few years we will have the big picture, we can think now about theories and then check out if we were right or not, but many also will realize (I suppose) how their need for security about facts or security for their self-steem was forcing them to cover eyes and ears.

MOESAN
30-09-16, 12:10
The date of L51 being 5600-3900 BC is inside the time of neolithization and megalithism in Western Europe, if L11 appeared 900 years after it would be more near to the Megalithic expansion than to the Bell Beaker one.

And as for the Bell Beaker samples of around 2500 BC, this people had a CW substrate, which was mainly R1a, but if I follow R1b = IE i would need to think that their previous Neolithic Y-DNA changed absolutely in few generations, and what is more incredible, the Y-DNA that was imposded over them was from a rare clade in CW, so i can't, i can't with that.

Thereafter we have L51 in countries high in L11+, not in the steppes but precisely were the western R1b is strong: Ireland, France, Italy, Portugal...
how to deal with it if it appeared 7000 years ago in the steppe? I would not say it is pseudoscience, but realy it has no sense at all.

7820

"Technical" point:
if this R-L51* map is absolute % its not enough: you need a relative % among total Y-R1b. L51* is not a so old SNP stage that it would have completely disappeared in lands where its descendants are a HUGE majority (Western Europe today). But I think Central and N-E Europe R1b whole variance (SNPS based, more convincing than STRs) is bigger than the Western Europe one, no? All that game of up/downstream SNPs is a dynamic thing. By the way I saw some maps where descendant L11 was well present in South Baltic Sea too (I supposed a pre-U106/L21 group, waiting for proofs). All that could support an eastern enough formation of L51/L11 WHICH ARE NOT TOO REPRESENTED IN ANATOLIA / CAUCASUS, today, if they came from there (their more remote ancestors could have been come from there but I prefer to wait). The variance it's true is a "two cutting sides knife". And old forms can be linked to a small pop not knowing new mutations; not a proof of older presence there, or at least not a proof of direct ascendance from there (I think into Balkans/Greece by instance). But the relatively less variated Western Y-R1b spite their huge density speaks for a demographic boom we have to date precisely: datations are not God 's word: you mentioned 5600/3900 BC for TMRCA of L51: is that to say all the descendants were born in the same day? Is that to say the TMRCA "producer" (ancestor) was living in Iberia or France at these dates because we find the most of L51 there? Maciamo wrote something about all that, already.
&: I think in an HG at some stage of its story in a big enough pop with not to quick increase, old upstream SNPs(*) bearers tend to fade out and new downstream SNPs bearers appear, the bulk of the pop being around the middle-way SNPs OF THE TIME. As a fact, the older SNPs* bearers fade out (in reality, give birth to new downstream ones!), without need of moves of the pop. the biggest the pop with time, the less old SNPs stages; here West seems nevertheless the place of the faster increase of some ligneages: always the same question: Megaliths or BBs or a bit later BBs??? (keep in mind Megaliths seem having interacted with TRBK: East-West cultural great meating: the beginnig of increase of pop?). Sorry for my laborious english

berun
01-10-16, 15:12
To me it's difficult to separate the question that L-51* and its subclades are in high frequencies in Western Europe, because if you have high freq of A and high freq of Aa, Ab, Ac and Ad in the same place, with Occam's Razor it is to have that L-51* was in Western Europe in enough high freq in old times as to develop so many clades (more people more mutations possible). Of course it's possible even that a bunch of L51* came from the steppes (yet to be found), but when such clades were popping it was the time of the Bell Beaker culture, which was a Western phenomenon, so it's more difficult to accept the "bunch of steppe herders theory" with all this info.

Also P312 has higher freq in Western Europe, suming up all to these evidence, and its own date, 2900 BC, is leaving more difficult to an IE arrival from the steppes.

Tomenable
01-10-16, 15:46
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32889-Neolithic-migration-was-family-based-Bronze-Age-invasion-was-male-dominated

berun
01-10-16, 19:38
Tomenable, I'm not doubting about the IE expansion (which I think also was thraumatic for Old Europe), what I'm not accepting anymore is the steppe origin. My pet theory now is Old European Russia (Novgorod-Smolensk line)

Taranis
01-10-16, 20:18
Tomenable, I'm not doubting about the IE expansion (which I think also was thraumatic for Old Europe), what I'm not accepting anymore is the steppe origin. My pet theory now is Old European Russia (Novgorod-Smolensk line)

Old European northern Russia, which was known for its domesticated horses and wheeled vehicles?

berun
01-10-16, 20:33
Wheeled vehicles fit well for open spaces and fit well for steppe areas. Good for Sintashta and Andronovo and their southern expansions. The Sintashta were the first to use chariots and evolved from Abashevo (Russian CW).

The Russian bet is more by having R1a and that the Corded Ware delivered farming production there, so a population burst, that if too strong could begin to push outside.

MOESAN
02-10-16, 01:17
To me it's difficult to separate the question that L-51* and its subclades are in high frequencies in Western Europe, because if you have high freq of A and high freq of Aa, Ab, Ac and Ad in the same place, with Occam's Razor it is to have that L-51* was in Western Europe in enough high freq in old times as to develop so many clades (more people more mutations possible). Of course it's possible even that a bunch of L51* came from the steppes (yet to be found), but when such clades were popping it was the time of the Bell Beaker culture, which was a Western phenomenon, so it's more difficult to accept the "bunch of steppe herders theory" with all this info.

Also P312 has higher freq in Western Europe, suming up all to these evidence, and its own date, 2900 BC, is leaving more difficult to an IE arrival from the steppes.

Don't confuse geographic origin and place of today higher concentration; old story! I propose you a route; and the richness of Central-East Europe for R1b is not a dream of mine - only nuance: a possible later sinc effect, but it could not explain all the diversity there. West knew a super-boom after a first boom in Alps or/and Danube; the male biased reproduction can explain an artificially higher growing for Y-haplo's, it's clear. the position of R-U152 and the high presence in Italic tribes stayed longer in Hungary seems to me the sign of a more eastern centered place for the first R1b. Nothing sure but? And you could give up with the Ocam razor: when badly used it's a dangerous tool (LOL). Future will tell us, all that for now are guesses, more or less evident.
nos vad deoc'h.

berun
02-10-16, 11:37
I know to don't rely on greographic frequencies, but when you have a high frequency of A and also a high frequency of A' by sure A' was there from the first minute at least.

It's like in surnames, you have per example the Catalan surnames Pujol and Puyol, the first has high frequencies in Catalonia and the second one also (but surely with more freq in the Pyrenees). The explanation of the "y" mutation is dialectal, but you have it where more Pujol are, the other way, lets say that it appeared first in Murcia and then came back to Catalonia to have also there a high frequency would be unusal.

MOESAN
07-10-16, 20:36
P312 descendants are relatively very very high in West; they almost "erased" their "fathers" L51 and L11;it 's more the signal of a founder effect (rapid growing) based upon a fraction of pop in a wave advance position that the signal of a stable great pop evolution in situ. But I can mistake. Let's wait a little.

berun
07-10-16, 22:14
We agree, the freq of P312 in relation with ancestral clades must be explained by a major success, but not far from where is or was such ancestry. To have more possibilities to mutations and new clades is were you have more a given clade. Or living near a nuclear station...
;)

Just another example. Christianity appeared in Palestine. 1000 years after it had a very high freq in western Europe and such Christians erected churches of the Romanic style. Where appeared the Gothic style? In the Maghreb? In Orthodox Russia? You know well the answer.

MOESAN
08-10-16, 11:02
I have no new argument; Just: Czechia is not so far from France;E-France and S-Germany seem better fits to R1b boom than Iberia by instance; "distance" here is a suggestive opinion; in fact a start of this boom can have found birth in Central Europe; Some subclades of the "basque" R1b found in Scandinavia or N-Germany seem checking a relatively "eastern" centroid for the today Western R1b and all I have at hand substains a rather "northern" origin of these "basque" R1b in Iberia...
+ I (a,d others) often forget that Central Europe of today is not the ancient one, which knows a lot of changes; ALL Y-R1b there suffered the coming of Slavs and their Y-R1a+others; BTW, the infered West R1b Y pop is a fictive one: it's the famous male bias of these times. It can be discussed in a thread like the one about Neolithic and Steppes BA differences in peopling (sex bias). Interesting discussion, but here I've said all I believe I know to date.