The Bronze Age Collapse and its possible ancient DNA implications

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Watch this very interesting documentary:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8Ln4j3X0Q


There were apparently still some >90% EEF populations in the Balkans in Late Bronze Age.

Autosomal comparison of two women buried in the same cemetery, but few centuries apart:

Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%

Maybe it had something to do with the Bronze Age collapse in that region?

But didn't Indo-Europeans come to the Balkans already in Coppe Age / Early Bronze Age?

So how is it possible that RISE595 LBA woman had no Steppe admixture.

Montenegro = full of mountains = one of last refuges for Non-IEs descended from EEF?
 
Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%

Maybe it had something to do with the Bronze Age collapse in that region?

But didn't Indo-Europeans come to the Balkans already in Coppe Age / Early Bronze Age?

So how is it possible that RISE595 LBA woman had no Steppe admixture.

Montenegro = full of mountains = one of last refuges for Non-IEs descended from EEF?

Some time ago there was also a discussion about one Iron Age Thracian sample from Bulgaria with apparently Sardinian autosomals:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29957-Genome-of-Iron-Age-Thracian?highlight=thracian+iron+age
 
Some time ago there was also a discussion about one Iron Age Thracian sample from Bulgaria with apparently Sardinian autosomals:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29957-Genome-of-Iron-Age-Thracian?highlight=thracian+iron+age

We have a few Bronze and Iron Age Thracians.

Indeed it seems that there were some substantial autosomal differences between them:

"Sample V2 was found in a flat cemetery dating to the Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC) near the village of Vratitsa, Bulgaria. Nine inhumation burials were excavated between 2003 and 2004."

"Sample T2G2 was found in a Thracian tumulus (burial mound) near the village of Stambolovo, Bulgaria. Two small tumuli dating to the Early Iron Age (850–700 BC) were excavated in 2008."

"Sample P192-1 was found at the site of a pit sanctuary near Svilengrad, Bulgaria, excavated between 2004 and 2006. The pits are associated with the Thracian culture and date to the Early Iron Age (800–500 BC) based on pottery found in the pits. A total of 67 ritual pits, including 16 pits containing human skeletons or parts of skeletons, were explored during the excavations."

"Sample K8 was found in the Yakimova Mogila Tumulus, which dates to the Iron Age (450–400 BC), near Krushare, Bulgaria. An aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods was excavated in 2008."

=========

Uniparental DNA:

Sample K8 - Y-DNA haplogroup J2a1a1b2 (PF5197); mtDNA haplogroup U

Sample P192-1 - Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b (Z1919); mtDNA haplogroup U3b

Sample T2G2 - mtDNA haplogroup HV; Y-DNA unknown but not E, J, I, G - maybe R1b or R1a

Sample V2 - Y-DNA haplogroup unknown; mtDNA haplogroup U2e

=========

I have found the following links related to those Thracians:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824117/
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/05/more...nomes-from.html
http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10...c-bulgaria.html
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30000...genetic-origins
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30020...s-from-Bulgaria
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/...e-age-bulgaria/
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/...age-bulgarians/
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/arti...al.pgen.1004353
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php...ll=1#post136599
 
It makes sense. Bronze Age invaders couldn't conquer South Europe till end of Bronze Age/Collapse period. South depopulated and opened to big invazions from North. Bronze Age Armadello-Italy looks mostly EEF too, like Balkans.
 
I think yes.
 
It makes sense. Bronze Age invaders couldn't conquer South Europe till end of Bronze Age/Collapse period. South depopulated and opened to big invazions from North. Bronze Age Armadello-Italy looks mostly EEF too, like Balkans.

You're absolutely correct...there were areas that received steppe input much later. I don't know the reason, although I could speculate that perhaps population density was greater in the south. Also, perhaps, if Remedello is any indication, they adoped the culture and so weren't sitting prey as much as the MN cultures of Central Europe.
(I can't resist, LeBrok...It's not an armadillo culture; it's Remedello.:grin: Don't be mad. )

@Board,
We have some dedicated threads to the Bronze Age Collapse:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30089-The-Bronze-Age-Collapse?highlight=Bronze+Age+collapse

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...y-in-the-Aegean?highlight=Bronze+Age+collapse

I don't think it's connected to what we're talking about...the Greek/Aegean Bronze Age was Indo-European. Of course, we don't have ancient dna from them. If the Indo-Europeans came by way of North Anatolia, as some older scholars used to hold (Drews, for one), they might have had "attenuated" steppe influences.
 
You're absolutely correct...there were areas that received steppe input much later. I don't know the reason, although I could speculate that perhaps population density was greater in the south. Also, perhaps, if Remedello is any indication, they adoped the culture and so weren't sitting prey as much as the MN cultures of Central Europe.
(I can't resist, LeBrok...It's not an armadillo culture; it's Remedello.:grin: Don't be mad. )

@Board,
We have some dedicated threads to the Bronze Age Collapse:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30089-The-Bronze-Age-Collapse?highlight=Bronze+Age+collapse

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...y-in-the-Aegean?highlight=Bronze+Age+collapse

I don't think it's connected to what we're talking about...the Greek/Aegean Bronze Age was Indo-European. Of course, we don't have ancient dna from them. If the Indo-Europeans came by way of North Anatolia, as some older scholars used to hold (Drews, for one), they might have had "attenuated" steppe influences.
If you remember the study of Stefania Sarno, it said that there was a bronze age connection between Aegean and Southern Italy/Sicily who carried Y-DNA J (both J1 and J2). So I think she was referred to bronze age collapse inlcuded many of these movements.
 
(I can't resist, LeBrok...It's not an armadillo culture; it's Remedello.:grin: Don't be mad. )
Ah, I hate you now. lol I guess dyslexia kicked in again.
 
What about the invasions by the "Sea Peoples"?

Some archaeologists have linked them to the Bronze Age battle in North-East Germany (Tollense):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rmany-1250-BCE?p=477658&viewfull=1#post477658

Here is what one professional archaeologist wrote about the Tollense battle on another forum:

Quote:

"Fantastic discovery!

In several next days from now I will try to search through available reports, especially seeking information or photographs concerning military items and equipment found at Tollense battlefield. And these military items can be of key importance assuming, that the dating of the site to period BrD or maybe III OEB in chronology by Montelius is correct. I am especially interested in melee weapons.

First of all, we are talking here about a period in which Tumulus cultures were being replaced by Urnfield cultures. It was also the beginning of a revolution in military technology, associated with the beginnings of such type of European swords which could be used for both cutting and stabbing. The question is, were those swords - likely of Reutlingen type - present there? Theoretically it is a bit too far to the north of territories until now considered as their place of origin, but considering the scale of this battle, I would not be surprised. Especially, that some single specimen have been found even in Southern Scandinavia. If we accept the date of 1250 BC, the age is correct.

Another issue are evident climate changes. Climate changes, which in the end culminated in Southern Europe in what is known from written sources as migrations of the Sea Peoples. Today we have no doubts, that what we know as the Sea Peoples was just the last episode of large-scale population movements. Perhaps now we have discovered one of the first episodes of that process [in Tollense area]. I have always been suggesting that those population movements had originated in areas of modern Czech Republic or Germany. So if what I suppose gets confirmed, it will be an argument supporting my theory."
 
From wikipedia: "The Sea Peoples were a confederacy of naval raiders who harried the coastal towns and cities of the Mediterranean region between c. 1276-1178 BCE, concentrating their efforts especially on Egypt."
 
Ah, I hate you now. lol I guess dyslexia kicked in again.

Now that would make me very sad. :)

When I look back and see some of my posts and the spelling and grammar mistakes I made in them, I feel like typing oops, do over, and writing a whole new post! I blame it on early onset Alzheimers. :) Actually, we're both trying to do too many things at once. My mistakes are never so endearingly funny, though.

@Hauteville, I think that's right, about perhaps a lot of the J coming into Italy around that time, I mean, but did she say it was as a result of the collapse, or during the Bronze Age itself? I thought it was the latter, but I could be wrong. I don't remember precisely.
 
From wikipedia: "The Sea Peoples were a confederacy of naval raiders who harried the coastal towns and cities of the Mediterranean region between c. 1276-1178 BCE, concentrating their efforts especially on Egypt."
Some historians think that the Sea people were a confederations of Italic and proto-Italic tribes (Siculi, Sardi, Lucani, Etruschi, Liguri etc).
 
Now that would make me very sad. :)

When I look back and see some of my posts and the spelling and grammar mistakes I made in them, I feel like typing oops, do over, and writing a whole new post! I blame it on early onset Alzheimers. :) Actually, we're both trying to do too many things at once. My mistakes are never so endearingly funny, though.

@Hauteville, I think that's right, about perhaps a lot of the J coming into Italy around that time, I mean, but did she say it was as a result of the collapse, or during the Bronze Age itself? I thought it was the latter, but I could be wrong. I don't remember precisely.

I think we have to remember the time differences. The Bronze Age Collapse is around 1200 BC.

Remedello is much, much earlier and is a Copper Age culture. We have no ancient dna from Italy from later except some low coverage Etruscan mtDna.

The Thracian samples are from the right time period, but I don't know how we'd determine whether the one that is "EEF like" is some refugee or victim of the collapse that got captured and sacrificed by more recent arrivals from the steppe versus a normal part of the variation in the area at that time, perhaps from the peasantry perhaps.
 
I don't thinkmetals discovering and use s a typically Steppes phenomenon I think it c
 
It makes sense. Bronze Age invaders couldn't conquer South Europe till end of Bronze Age/Collapse period. South depopulated and opened to big invazions from North. Bronze Age Armadello-Italy looks mostly EEF too,
like Balkans.

but that is surely oposite against Mycenean culture, whom we know were already at Mycaene at 1730 BC and surely much earlier at more North parts,
Iωλκος should be much earlier to that,

troyan war is estimated around 11-12 century BC
Sea peoples are after troyan war,
many believe that troyan war was the start
 
Watch this very interesting documentary:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8Ln4j3X0Q


There were apparently still some >90% EEF populations in the Balkans in Late Bronze Age.

Autosomal comparison of two women buried in the same cemetery, but few centuries apart:

Woman RISE595 (Late Bronze Age Montenegro - Velika Gruda site):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 93.44%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 0.00%

Woman RISE596 (Iron Age Montenegro - same site, Velika Gruda):

Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers ------- 49.57%
Afanasievo_Yamnaya ------------- 50.42%

Maybe it had something to do with the Bronze Age collapse in that region?

But didn't Indo-Europeans come to the Balkans already in Coppe Age / Early Bronze Age?

So how is it possible that RISE595 LBA woman had no Steppe admixture.

Montenegro = full of mountains = one of last refuges for Non-IEs descended from EEF?

no
much later,
at least at south Balkans is much after,
the earliest purely IE entrance at south is estimated around and before 4ky from now,
mycenean clearly evidence at south is 1730 BC so add 1-2 centuries before to Epirus and Thessaly,
 
I think we have to remember the time differences. The Bronze Age Collapse is around 1200 BC.

Remedello is much, much earlier and is a Copper Age culture. We have no ancient dna from Italy from later except some low coverage Etruscan mtDna.

The Thracian samples are from the right time period, but I don't know how we'd determine whether the one that is "EEF like" is some refugee or victim of the collapse that got captured and sacrificed by more recent arrivals from the steppe versus a normal part of the variation in the area at that time, perhaps from the peasantry perhaps.
Youngest Remedello was Bronze Age.
 
Interesting documentary.

They seem to be ignoring the possibility of the Sea Peoples coming from the Black Sea. If the PIE/IE gradually grew powerful on the steppe then it seems plausible to me that they might have displaced the people living around the Black Sea and started a volkwanderung.

One interesting thing about that idea is people often say ancient samples are like modern samples from the near or mid east but what if the near and/or mid east had a population turnover from further north?
 
From wikipedia: "The Sea Peoples were a confederacy of naval raiders who harried the coastal towns and cities of the Mediterranean region between c. 1276-1178 BCE, concentrating their efforts especially on Egypt."
In my opinion they were Mediterranean islanders, probably related to Phoenicians, Sardinians, Anatolian IEs, and maybe Greeks later. I believe they were mostly pre-Greek though.


 

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