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Sile
14-05-16, 01:00
I always thought that this was a logical answer to the sea peoples

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2087924-world-war-zero-brought-down-mystery-civilisation-of-sea-people/

But also that the veneti, etruscans, liburnians etc came out of these "luwians" mixing with one or more indigenous peoples where they eventually settled.

A. Papadimitriou
14-05-16, 02:46
I think this story may have been wrong. In my opinion Trojans were not IE-speakers.

From Wikipedia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Luwian_Language_de.svg
Area where the 2nd millennium BC Luwian language was spoken

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Anatolian_03.png
Anatolian languages attested in the mid-first millennium BC

So, the defeat of the (non-IE in my opinion) Trojans made easier the Greek colonization of the shores and 'Anatolian IE' speakers moved also close to the Greek colonies.

Greying Wanderer
14-05-16, 11:15
@A. Papadimitriou


Yes. If you look at the position of Troy from a strategic point of view it looks like it might have blocked the path of people coming from the Black Sea into the Aegean or blocked people spreading from Greece into Anatolia or both - like a cork in a bottle maybe?


edit: although i guess they could also be an earlier wave of IE/PIE

Kisuan
15-05-16, 01:37
Just curious Papadimitriou, if you consider the Trojans non-IE, do you think of the Etruscans as being their descendants?

Sile
15-05-16, 09:54
another study

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DNyA90f_aw&app=desktop

A. Papadimitriou
16-05-16, 04:41
Can't be sure. The dating of Trojan War is supposed to be (1260–1180 BC)
And the Etruscan civilization is dated in the following period ( 768 BC–264 BC)

So, not impossible at least.

The Lemnian language, supposedly similar to Etruscan, very close to Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language (but much later chronologically)

And in my opinion the 'Pelasgians' were a related group of people. In Homer the Pelasgians are allies of Troy. Many of them became Hellenes it seems, though.

Also toponyms or placenames which contain -ss-, -tt-, -nth-, are considered pre-Greek. So, probably, the original inhabitants of Attica were pre-Greek 'Pelasgians', possibly related to Trojans and Hattians.

Pelasgians also were expelled from Attica by Athenians.

Then in the Middle Ages we encounter these myths, whatever that means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Mythological_origins (Turks here = a people probably related to Magyars)

What I say is probably the opposite of what most people here think. Take that into account if you wish.

Sile
16-05-16, 07:14
Can't be sure. The dating of Trojan War is supposed to be (1260–1180 BC)
And the Etruscan civilization is dated in the following period ( 768 BC–264 BC)

So, not impossible at least.

The Lemnian language, supposedly similar to Etruscan, very close to Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language (but much later chronologically)

And in my opinion the 'Pelasgians' were a related group of people. In Homer the Pelasgians are allies of Troy. Many of them became Hellenes it seems, though.

Also toponyms or placenames which contain -ss-, -tt-, -nth-, are considered pre-Greek. So, probably, the original inhabitants of Attica were pre-Greek 'Pelasgians', possibly related to Trojans and Hattians.

Pelasgians also were expelled from Attica by Athenians.

Then in the Middle Ages we encounter these myths, whatever that means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Mythological_origins (Turks here = a people probably related to Magyars)

What I say is probably the opposite of what most people here think. Take that into account if you wish.

The lemnos tablet of which was Etruscan was discovered to be put there by Etruscan traders , there is no connection between Lemnos and
eturia.
The association of etruscan with Rhaetia is again a fantasy based on one etruscan alphabet tablet found in Bolzano .................these are all assumptions.
what has been found is ancient trading centres via archaeology where races exchanged goods and knowledge are:
Colgona Veneta where etruscan traded with Rhaetic and Venetic
Astina where etruscan trade with Venetic
Feltre ( near Villabruna finding ) where Rhaetic and Venetic traded
Oderzo where Venetic and Illyric traded
trieste where liburnian and illyrian traded ..........and many many more

The etruscans are part of ancient umbrian people and have always been where they are, some small group from elsewhere came and became rulers of Eturia ( similar to Vikings in Normandy )...............If they came from Lydia in Anatolia , then why has no ancient historian mentioned an association with lydians when they where fighting the phyrians ~500BC.

The new luwian papers is the only logical knowledge we can associate with the sea-peoples , a non-greek or hittite group , a non-semetic group ( hittites where also non-semetic )

holderlin
16-05-16, 07:41
Can't be sure. The dating of Trojan War is supposed to be (1260–1180 BC)
And the Etruscan civilization is dated in the following period ( 768 BC–264 BC)

So, not impossible at least.

The Lemnian language, supposedly similar to Etruscan, very close to Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language (but much later chronologically)

And in my opinion the 'Pelasgians' were a related group of people. In Homer the Pelasgians are allies of Troy. Many of them became Hellenes it seems, though.

Also toponyms or placenames which contain -ss-, -tt-, -nth-, are considered pre-Greek. So, probably, the original inhabitants of Attica were pre-Greek 'Pelasgians', possibly related to Trojans and Hattians.

Pelasgians also were expelled from Attica by Athenians.

Then in the Middle Ages we encounter these myths, whatever that means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Mythological_origins (Turks here = a people probably related to Magyars)

What I say is probably the opposite of what most people here think. Take that into account if you wish.

Interesting. But I think Luwain is most likely. Many Troy supporters were probably Pelasgians though.

Remember the Anatolian languages were the first to leave the steppe. Likely in Anatolia 1000 years before Hellenic. Evidence of difference or diversity doesn't mean non-IE. Just like a Russian and a French today.

Hittite records actually allow for some deduction in this matter e.g. there's evidence that the growth of the Greeks is noticed and being managed by the Hittites. Also the only language to be dug up in the right layer at Troy is Luwain.

Also, something that for some reason isn't considered on these boards, they carried all the hallmarks of an IE culture of that time.

berun
16-05-16, 09:31
The author might explain what to do with other peoples involved, maybe he explains that it in the book, but there are these issues to resolve: there was a Balkanic expansion towards Anatolia (Briges > Phrygians... Armenians?, Thracians > Bithinians, Greeks). Of course such expansion could have pushed many Luwians out there. The Balkanic expansion even affected Greece (Dorians over Myceanians) and seemingly Italy (Illyrians > Messapians). The mysterious Sea Peoples reached afar places (Pelesht in Palestine, attacks to Egypt, Shardes in Sardinia, Shekelesh in Sicily, Lydians in Tuscany...).

I think there is a paper relating such upheaval to climatic changes that would push Central Europeans to attack the Balkans, having then a domino effect. Also this epoch is related to that of the Urnfield / Celtic expansion from North Alps to France, North Spain, North Italy, Hungary... So that from a geographical perspective the Sea Peoples phenomenon seems to have a Danubian epicenter.

A. Papadimitriou
16-05-16, 11:11
The lemnos tablet of which was Etruscan was discovered to be put there by Etruscan traders , there is no connection between Lemnos and
eturia.
The association of etruscan with Rhaetia is again a fantasy based on one etruscan alphabet tablet found in Bolzano .................these are all assumptions.
what has been found is ancient trading centres via archaeology where races exchanged goods and knowledge are:
Colgona Veneta where etruscan traded with Rhaetic and Venetic
Astina where etruscan trade with Venetic
Feltre ( near Villabruna finding ) where Rhaetic and Venetic traded
Oderzo where Venetic and Illyric traded
trieste where liburnian and illyrian traded ..........and many many more

The etruscans are part of ancient umbrian people and have always been where they are, some small group from elsewhere came and became rulers of Eturia ( similar to Vikings in Normandy )...............If they came from Lydia in Anatolia , then why has no ancient historian mentioned an association with lydians when they where fighting the phyrians ~500BC.

The new luwian papers is the only logical knowledge we can associate with the sea-peoples , a non-greek or hittite group , a non-semetic group ( hittites where also non-semetic )

The Sea Peoples might have been of diverse origin. How do you know they are not greek, hittite, semitic, whatever?

And about the 'Luwians', I don't know. Is there any real evidence that a 'luwian' identity existed?

The Lydians at some point had subjugated Phrygians, Mysians, Mariandynians, Chalyves, Paphlagones, Thracians (Thunians and Bithunians), Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Pamphylians.

In the 7nth century BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times-en.svg

And Herodotus mentions Carians considered the Lydians and the Mysians their brothers "because Lydos and Mysos were brothers with Karas". Herodotus thought that they came from Crete. They were supporting that they were indigenous.

The Kaunians said that they came from Crete and it seems that they had become part of Carian ethnos

The Lycians were also from Crete, according to Herodotus, but they left as a result of a.. civil war. And they had customs, partly Cretan, partly Carian.
Also, they had some customes not found in other people. They had a concept of matrilinearity, probably, like that found in Judaism.

This guy is just constructing an ancient people by grouping different peoples of diverse origin probably. (The Hellenes had diverse origin also but they became Hellenes with the creation of the Amphictyonic League)

Boreas
16-05-16, 11:30
If they came from Lydia in Anatolia , then why has no ancient historian mentioned an association with lydians when they where fighting the phyrians ~500BC.


Maybe, they said but you didn't hear it.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

About Anatolia origion
Acusilaus

A fragment from the writings of Acusilaus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acusilaus) asserts that the Peloponnesians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesus) were called "Pelasgians" after Pelasgus, a son of Zeus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) and Niobe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niobe).[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-33)




About Pelasgian migraiton to Italy

Strabo

Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiber_River) in Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) at Pyrgi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi) and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.[59] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#cite_note-59)


Dionysius of Halicarnassus

Most went to Dodona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona) and eventually being driven from there to Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) then called Saturnia. They landed at Spina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spina) at the mouth of the Po River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_River). Still others crossed the Apennine Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_Mountains) to Umbria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbria) and being driven from there went to the country of the Aborigines. These consented to a treaty and settled them at Velia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velia). They and the Aborigenes took over Umbria but were dispossessed by the Tyrrhenians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians). The author continues to detail the tribulations of the Pelasgians and then goes on to the Tyrrhenians, whom he is careful to distinguish from the Pelasgians.

A. Papadimitriou
16-05-16, 12:13
I've looked at Homer and the allies of Trojans were probably both IE and non-IE. The Trojans could have been IE from what I read, so I might have been wrong in my first post. But maybe those defeated (IE and non-IE) fled?
We know the story about Aeneas. The Franks believed that they were descendants of Priam. This is considered just a myth, a phantasy though but maybe a real similar movement of people happened (?)

Sile
18-05-16, 20:30
The Sea Peoples might have been of diverse origin. How do you know they are not greek, hittite, semitic, whatever?

And about the 'Luwians', I don't know. Is there any real evidence that a 'luwian' identity existed?

The Lydians at some point had subjugated Phrygians, Mysians, Mariandynians, Chalyves, Paphlagones, Thracians (Thunians and Bithunians), Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Pamphylians.

In the 7nth century BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times-en.svg

And Herodotus mentions Carians considered the Lydians and the Mysians their brothers "because Lydos and Mysos were brothers with Karas". Herodotus thought that they came from Crete. They were supporting that they were indigenous.

The Kaunians said that they came from Crete and it seems that they had become part of Carian ethnos

The Lycians were also from Crete, according to Herodotus, but they left as a result of a.. civil war. And they had customs, partly Cretan, partly Carian.
Also, they had some customes not found in other people. They had a concept of matrilinearity, probably, like that found in Judaism.

This guy is just constructing an ancient people by grouping different peoples of diverse origin probably. (The Hellenes had diverse origin also but they became Hellenes with the creation of the Amphictyonic League)

The luwian identity is not via ethnicity but by linguistic............the only language tablet found in troy was Luwian.

Explain ancient Greek ..............was Mycenean people Greek and their replacement by Dorians from modern Albania in the late bronze-age make the "greek" mycenaeans disappear?....or....was it that the myceneans where not Greek , but the Dorians where Greek.
Maybe the mixture of the 2 made the Greeks, if this is the case then Myceneans where not Greek

which is it?

Sile
18-05-16, 20:35
The Sea Peoples might have been of diverse origin. How do you know they are not greek, hittite, semitic, whatever?

And about the 'Luwians', I don't know. Is there any real evidence that a 'luwian' identity existed?

The Lydians at some point had subjugated Phrygians, Mysians, Mariandynians, Chalyves, Paphlagones, Thracians (Thunians and Bithunians), Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians, Pamphylians.

In the 7nth century BC
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times-en.svg

And Herodotus mentions Carians considered the Lydians and the Mysians their brothers "because Lydos and Mysos were brothers with Karas". Herodotus thought that they came from Crete. They were supporting that they were indigenous.

The Kaunians said that they came from Crete and it seems that they had become part of Carian ethnos

The Lycians were also from Crete, according to Herodotus, but they left as a result of a.. civil war. And they had customs, partly Cretan, partly Carian.
Also, they had some customes not found in other people. They had a concept of matrilinearity, probably, like that found in Judaism.

This guy is just constructing an ancient people by grouping different peoples of diverse origin probably. (The Hellenes had diverse origin also but they became Hellenes with the creation of the Amphictyonic League)

Herodotus is wrong in regards to Etruscans the same as he was wrong by saying the Veneti where Illyrians, when genetics showed in 2010, that the veneti are from northern Anatolia , just what ancient historians Homer and Levy said in their writings

Yetos
18-05-16, 21:45
The luwian identity is not via ethnicity but by linguistic............the only language tablet found in troy was Luwian.

Explain ancient Greek ..............was Mycenean people Greek and their replacement by Dorians from modern Albania in the late bronze-age make the "greek" mycenaeans disappear?....or....was it that the myceneans where not Greek , but the Dorians where Greek.
Maybe the mixture of the 2 made the Greeks, if this is the case then Myceneans where not Greek

which is it?


Sile Dorians are called 'Τριχακες' means from Trikke, modern Trikala area Thessaly,
what Albania and Illyria? where did you find that,

and no,
Mycenean culture split from Vatin Serbia from rest IE that moved to Vucocar,
change of p-q as in Celtic happened also at Mycenean,
Dorians were called Hellenes,
Doric Dialects is well known and not lost,
it is spoken even today,
what Albania? and says who?
Dorian is the southest of the NW Greek dialects
Dorian made Olympic games at Ellanas river, which is not Albania, but the land of Myrmidones of Achileas

and no Greeks are named Iliad as Γραιοι,

BOTH DORIANS AND MAKEDONIANS CLAIM THEIR ORIGIN AT mt OLYMP

homeland of Dorians
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CE%AE%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%A4%CF%81%CE%B9% CE%BA%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
their sacred land before Olympia was DoDona and a river that ends at Alamana, Ellanas river

at the times of Mycaenae at Olymp lived the ΣΕΛΛΟΙ (S)ELLOI and north of olymp the Ellimeians ΕΛΛΗΜΟΙ
what Albania?

Yetos
18-05-16, 22:24
I mention many times about a coalition
THAT MOST HERE AVOID TO SEARCH

THE ARZAWA/ASSUWA, which the Greeks call Arcadians and moved to Mycaenae,

so my Question,
ARZAWA/ASSUWA WERE THEY IE?
SURELY WERE NOT LYDIANS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

notice
the arzawa known dates,
could it be the Pelasgians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa_league

NOTICE
if Arzawa/Assuwa is not IE,
then all ancient writers are correct about pelasgians, Hatti, etc,

now if I coonect Arzawa as ancestor of Luwang and Carian, then all ancient historians, are wrong,
and neither can expolained the Greek colonisation 1, neither sea peoples,

BUT
if i take as Axiom the Arzawa were not IE but a kind of Hatti,
then all ancient writers are correct,
explain many toponyms at Greece, etc
explain the Pelasgians Minoans, old Europe, etc etc
and Troy of Homer was Etruscan, not Lydian, etc etc
Even the devastation of Brygians to Phrygia, which is 1 century after the Dorian Descent

the last theory is relatively new at about 2007 if remember correct,

the Last chain of the chain reaction that start from Donav with Myceneans and at East with Hettits is move of Brygians to Phrygia, and Greek colonisation 1,
and personally I believe that is the end of old Europe,
cause from varna and crete we know that there connection among all old Europe cultures,
which expand from Croatia to minor Asia.

MOESAN
19-05-16, 12:14
Herodotus is wrong in regards to Etruscans the same as he was wrong by saying the Veneti where Illyrians, when genetics showed in 2010, that the veneti are from northern Anatolia , just what ancient historians Homer and Levy said in their writings

this affirmation concerning Veneti "bored my ace" (sorry Angela). Perhaps it's true but I need confirmation. Have you the link to the survey about this Anatolia connexion for Veneti? Genetics "showed" the one and its opposite more than a time according to agendas - look at Etruscans studies -
Thanks beforehand.
&: just: these Luwian thing leaves me very doubtfull. A "rubbish" bag of diverse folks? Or a true unity???
What remains is what seems an at least partial tentative of migration of Hittites towards South and a sea coalition (Greeks? + "Pelasgians" + diverse mercenaries of the Italian and Aegean Isles sacking or trying to colonize South Eastern Mediterranea. A domino effect for some reasons seems sensible. I 've a book at home but cannot reach it just now;

A. Papadimitriou
19-05-16, 14:35
Herodotus is wrong in regards to Etruscans the same as he was wrong by saying the Veneti where Illyrians, when genetics showed in 2010, that the veneti are from northern Anatolia , just what ancient historians Homer and Levy said in their writings

You quoted me and you said something irrelevant to what I said, at least in the post you quoted.

A. Papadimitriou
19-05-16, 14:46
The luwian identity is not via ethnicity but by linguistic............the only language tablet found in troy was Luwian.

Explain ancient Greek ..............was Mycenean people Greek and their replacement by Dorians from modern Albania in the late bronze-age make the "greek" mycenaeans disappear?....or....was it that the myceneans where not Greek , but the Dorians where Greek.
Maybe the mixture of the 2 made the Greeks, if this is the case then Myceneans where not Greek

which is it?

There's no replacement. Dorian invasion is a concept of the 19th century. The 'Mycenaeans' didn't have an 'hellenic' identity probably and that identity was created later but we have evidence that it existed during Classical Antiquity.

We don't have any evidence that the Anatolian IE speakers identified as Luwians. Correct me if I am wrong.

At least to what Herodotus, says, though, Lydians, Mysians and Karians had common origin.

Angela
19-05-16, 16:13
this affirmation concerning Veneti "bored my ace" (sorry Angela). Perhaps it's true but I need confirmation. Have you the link to the survey about this Anatolia connexion for Veneti? Genetics "showed" the one and its opposite more than a time according to agendas - look at Etruscans studies -
Thanks beforehand.
&: just: these Luwian thing leaves me very doubtfull. A "rubbish" bag of diverse folks? Or a true unity???
What remains is what seems an at least partial tentative of migration of Hittites towards South and a sea coalition (Greeks? + "Pelasgians" + diverse mercenaries of the Italian and Aegean Isles sacking or trying to colonize South Eastern Mediterranea. A domino effect for some reasons seems sensible. I 've a book at home but cannot reach it just now;

I don't know if you saw this post on the Dienekes blog. I hope he doesn't mind my posting it here.
" Nobody doubts that Bronze Age collapse happened. Nobody doubts that Sea Peoples raided coastal civilizations in the Eastern Med. Nobody doubts (any more) that the Trojan War really happened. Bronze Age collapse did fell the Mycenean, the Hittite and the Egyptian empires, ushering in the Iron Age a few hundred years later.

But, I am with those that look to fundamentals like climate change and declining trade, rather than to the particular military and political coalitions that seized the moment to tear down civilization. And, a focus on Luwian Civilization is undermined by the fact that Bronze Age collapse had an impact as far away as Denmark, rather than being limited to the Eastern Med.

Could Luwians have played a part in effectuating Bronze Age Collapse? Sure. Did they do so as a well organized central coalition that was the primary proximate cause of the demise of Mycenean, Hittite and Egyptian civilization? I rather doubt it.

Were Luwians the Sea People? They may have been one subset of Sea People, but we know from archaeological evidence that one group of Sea People (the Philistines) were Mycenean Greeks who were resettled in basically the Gaza Strip pursuant to a deal with Egypt to leave it alone in future raids. Realistically, the Sea People were less an ethnically defined nation and more a disparate collection of refugees and raiders aggressively seeking out resources from coastal cities when the economies of their homelands collapsed for reasons beyond their control."

I'm not sure that we know the Philistines were Mycenaean Greeks, but other than that, I rather agree with "Andrew's" assessment of what the evidence currently suggests.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/05/luwians-vs-hittites-and-mycenaeans-vs.html

(Fwiw, I share your frustration with the posting of conclusions for which there is absolutely no proof. )

bicicleur
19-05-16, 17:13
I don't know if you saw this post on the Dienekes blog. I hope he doesn't mind my posting it here.
" Nobody doubts that Bronze Age collapse happened. Nobody doubts that Sea Peoples raided coastal civilizations in the Eastern Med. Nobody doubts (any more) that the Trojan War really happened. Bronze Age collapse did fell the Mycenean, the Hittite and the Egyptian empires, ushering in the Iron Age a few hundred years later.

But, I am with those that look to fundamentals like climate change and declining trade, rather than to the particular military and political coalitions that seized the moment to tear down civilization. And, a focus on Luwian Civilization is undermined by the fact that Bronze Age collapse had an impact as far away as Denmark, rather than being limited to the Eastern Med.

Could Luwians have played a part in effectuating Bronze Age Collapse? Sure. Did they do so as a well organized central coalition that was the primary proximate cause of the demise of Mycenean, Hittite and Egyptian civilization? I rather doubt it.

Were Luwians the Sea People? They may have been one subset of Sea People, but we know from archaeological evidence that one group of Sea People (the Philistines) were Mycenean Greeks who were resettled in basically the Gaza Strip pursuant to a deal with Egypt to leave it alone in future raids. Realistically, the Sea People were less an ethnically defined nation and more a disparate collection of refugees and raiders aggressively seeking out resources from coastal cities when the economies of their homelands collapsed for reasons beyond their control."

I'm not sure that we know the Philistines were Mycenaean Greeks, but other than that, I rather agree with "Andrew's" assessment of what the evidence currently suggests.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/05/luwians-vs-hittites-and-mycenaeans-vs.html

(Fwiw, I share your frustration with the posting of conclusions for which there is absolutely no proof. )

there are indications that the Philistines came from the Aegean area
some of them had allready settled in the Gaza area earlier, maybe traders and farmers
they seem to have kept contacts with their homeland
so during the turmoil of the Sea Peoples more Philistines arrived
it doesn't look like it was a military conquest

Sile
19-05-16, 20:25
there are indications that the Philistines came from the Aegean area
some of them had allready settled in the Gaza area earlier, maybe traders and farmers
they seem to have kept contacts with their homeland
so during the turmoil of the Sea Peoples more Philistines arrived
it doesn't look like it was a military conquest

there already is a 2014 Israeli documentary via digs on Philistines originating from eastern crete from Mycenaean descent

Sile
19-05-16, 20:28
this affirmation concerning Veneti "bored my ace" (sorry Angela). Perhaps it's true but I need confirmation. Have you the link to the survey about this Anatolia connexion for Veneti? Genetics "showed" the one and its opposite more than a time according to agendas - look at Etruscans studies -
Thanks beforehand.
&: just: these Luwian thing leaves me very doubtfull. A "rubbish" bag of diverse folks? Or a true unity???
What remains is what seems an at least partial tentative of migration of Hittites towards South and a sea coalition (Greeks? + "Pelasgians" + diverse mercenaries of the Italian and Aegean Isles sacking or trying to colonize South Eastern Mediterranea. A domino effect for some reasons seems sensible. I 've a book at home but cannot reach it just now;

I have already place on this site many times the results of natgeno study 2005-2010 in regards to the veneti-north anatolian association, which also includes the non-association with brittany veneti or baltic veneti

I never believed in this veneti -north anatolian association until I saw these results

Yetos
19-05-16, 21:14
Guys to understanf Minoans, and not Myceneans

there is an URl, but I can not acces it,

if someone can, plz copy/paste

vl.www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497) /

Yetos
19-05-16, 21:15
there already is a 2014 Israeli documentary via digs on Philistines originating from eastern crete from Mycenaean descent

Sile both times I think you confuse the Minoans, with the Mycaineans,

Minoans might not be IE,

Mycainae was IE.

Yetos
19-05-16, 21:36
about Phillistines and Minoans etc etc,

not only the known cities,
But even in areas that no one will ever imagine,
like Tel-Kabri, which seems to be a city of 3 citadels, 1 of them purely Aegan, (Aegean is not Mycenean, but close enough to Minoan)
area not known as Phillistine area,

Avaris Egypt. Tel-Kabri and Allalakh are known Cretan/Minoan Citadels,
from 2011 started a search about the abilities of Aegean and Minoan civilization and colonial system, which until today give many,
it is certain that Aegeans and Minoans even colonise Iberia (Spain) and still argue about Norway and American continent,
all that before the Thera Volcanoe and the exit from Avaris,
there was some publishing about cherrokee Ameridians that have Cretan origin, and copper mines etc,
but to most I can not access,

Sile
19-05-16, 22:29
Sile both times I think you confuse the Minoans, with the Mycaineans,

Minoans might not be IE,

Mycainae was IE.

myceneans destroyed the minoans and in turn the Dorians destroyed the myceneans ( in crete )

https://www.academia.edu/1822403/Graeco-Anatolian_Contacts_in_the_Mycenaean_Period

MOESAN
19-05-16, 23:59
I don't know if you saw this post on the Dienekes blog. I hope he doesn't mind my posting it here.
" Nobody doubts that Bronze Age collapse happened. Nobody doubts that Sea Peoples raided coastal civilizations in the Eastern Med. Nobody doubts (any more) that the Trojan War really happened. Bronze Age collapse did fell the Mycenean, the Hittite and the Egyptian empires, ushering in the Iron Age a few hundred years later.

But, I am with those that look to fundamentals like climate change and declining trade, rather than to the particular military and political coalitions that seized the moment to tear down civilization. And, a focus on Luwian Civilization is undermined by the fact that Bronze Age collapse had an impact as far away as Denmark, rather than being limited to the Eastern Med.

Could Luwians have played a part in effectuating Bronze Age Collapse? Sure. Did they do so as a well organized central coalition that was the primary proximate cause of the demise of Mycenean, Hittite and Egyptian civilization? I rather doubt it.

Were Luwians the Sea People? They may have been one subset of Sea People, but we know from archaeological evidence that one group of Sea People (the Philistines) were Mycenean Greeks who were resettled in basically the Gaza Strip pursuant to a deal with Egypt to leave it alone in future raids. Realistically, the Sea People were less an ethnically defined nation and more a disparate collection of refugees and raiders aggressively seeking out resources from coastal cities when the economies of their homelands collapsed for reasons beyond their control."

I'm not sure that we know the Philistines were Mycenaean Greeks, but other than that, I rather agree with "Andrew's" assessment of what the evidence currently suggests.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/05/luwians-vs-hittites-and-mycenaeans-vs.html

(Fwiw, I share your frustration with the posting of conclusions for which there is absolutely no proof. )

Thanks Angela. I 'm not at home just now but red a seemingly good book about Sea People. My memory is not so good and I forgot a lot; what I retained from this book is rather prudent suppositions without too much steep affirmations for a not too well known period in East Mediterranea. What remained is an apparently heavy enough move or try to move of Hittites towards South, with women and children and not only male soldiers if I remind well.

Angela
20-05-16, 00:16
Here we go again. I just read the paper cited in post #27.

https://www.academia.edu/1822403/Graeco-Anatolian_Contacts_in_the_Mycenaean_Period

It cannot be used to support the proposition that "the Mycenaeans destroyed the minoans and in turn the Dorians destroyed the myceneans ( in crete )".

It doesn't address that question at all. It is a linguistic paper looking at influences between the Mycenaean language and Anatolian languages, and concludes that the influences were scarce, probably because the Mycenaean influence in Anatolia was very circumscribed in both time and geography. No mention is made of war, while trade and cultural exchanges are discussed a great deal.

Moderator note: Posters are urged to read papers carefully before proffering them as support for one hypothesis or another. The failure to do so can totally mislead readers if they don't take the time to read the said papers. Readers, if at all possible try to at least read the conclusion of posted papers before taking them as gospel.

Sile
20-05-16, 01:51
http://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/HIST301-1.3-MycenaeanCiv-FINAL.pdf


(http://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/HIST301-1.3-MycenaeanCiv-FINAL.pdf)http://www.explorecrete.com/archaeology/minoan-civilization-destruction.html


Invasion by Mycenaeans - Complete destruction of the Minoan Civilization



http://www.explorecrete.com/archaeology/images/mycenean-sword.jpg
Mycenean sword found in a tomb in Chania


Archaeologists have now enough evidence to believe that the reputed Minoan Civilization was severely damaged and affected by the eruption of Santorini Volcano, which destroyed their fleet.
Prosperity and safety of the Minoans relied on their ships; since their main means of existence and defense were afflicted, Minoans became an easy prey for the Mycenaean invaders that came to island from the Greek Mainland.


EDIT: there are many here who blow their own trumpet for glory , who use important information found by others and claiming it for themselves.

MOESAN
24-05-16, 23:39
Can't be sure. The dating of Trojan War is supposed to be (1260–1180 BC)
And the Etruscan civilization is dated in the following period ( 768 BC–264 BC)

So, not impossible at least.

The Lemnian language, supposedly similar to Etruscan, very close to Troy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language (but much later chronologically)

And in my opinion the 'Pelasgians' were a related group of people. In Homer the Pelasgians are allies of Troy. Many of them became Hellenes it seems, though.

Also toponyms or placenames which contain -ss-, -tt-, -nth-, are considered pre-Greek. So, probably, the original inhabitants of Attica were pre-Greek 'Pelasgians', possibly related to Trojans and Hattians.

Pelasgians also were expelled from Attica by Athenians.

Then in the Middle Ages we encounter these myths, whatever that means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks#Mythological_origins (Turks here = a people probably related to Magyars)

What I say is probably the opposite of what most people here think. Take that into account if you wish.

Bernard Sergent thinks Pelasgoi would be restricted to Phillistins who stayed rather in South-Western Balkans and were a set of ancient Macro-Italic speakers as Dalmatians and pre-Samnite pre-latin tribes of Southern Italy, distinct from genuine Illyrians. Some of them went to Aegea and associated themselves in some way to Tyrsenoi considered as Etruscans around the 'Sea People' time, Etruscans autochtonous or not of these Aegea area. The term 'pelasge' became overused after by Greeks for every supposed predecessor. But the linguistic layer referring to the suffixes in -anth, -tt, -ss, pre-Greek, would have been of different origin spite they were I-Eans too: a group of languages akin to Anatolian ones, finally.
The linguistic quality of the very Troyans remain still a mystery.

MOESAN
28-05-16, 20:43
It could help or not?

Kadesh battle,around 1286/1285 BC on the Oronte river.
Hittie Muwatallisagainst pharaon Ramses III : last battle between both.
Charriots battle.« Kadesh list » : in Louxor : alliees of Hittiteswhose names reappeared later among the North and Sea People ofEgyptians :
- Nahrin = Mitanni
- Arzawa (betweenHittite empire and coastal states like Millawanda - surely Milet -and Lukka countries
- Dardany (Drdny),perhaps the Dardanoi of Homere, so Troia people – in every case,this Dardany are localized in NW Anatolia
- Kashka (Keshkesh)of N Anatolia, later become enemies of the Hittites
not mentioned inlater egyptian doc's about sea raiders :
- Lukka (uncertainlocalization : NW : Lykaonia, or SW Karia ?
- Kizzawatna =Cilicia (very close relations with Hittites) : the most of themspoke a Louwian dialect as did peope of Arzawa. Others spoke Hurriandialect
- Karchemish, closeto Kizzuwatna
+ Ugarit* city,Khaled = Alep city, Kadesh city...
* : Ugaritwould have had a special corpse of elite charriots warriors, foreignmercenaries directly under the king and often of I-Ean origin –since the XIV°Cy the semitic names became a minority in the palaceand the administration.
In XIV°Cy too,the garnisons men of Carmel Monts at the service of Egyptians haveI-Ean names !


Around1220 BC, Merneptah was obliged to fight against Lybians and theirallies. In fact it was an invasion which was planned. Aside theLybians, there were their neighbours Meshwesh, and people « ofthe North » : Sherden (Shardana), Lukka, Ekswesh* (eg.Ikws), Teresh (eg. Trs) and Shekelesh (eg. Skrs). The Shardana werealready mentioned in wars in Byblos in the XIV°Cy and later, butwithout mention of geographic origin.
* :the hypothetic identifications of the Ekwesh to the Ahhiyawa andof these last ones to Akhaiwoi (Acheans) are still withoutconfirmation. The Ahhiyawa's high position in their relations withHittites and their certain maritime force is not sufficient tolocalize them precisely : continental Greece ?Egea ? Western Anatolia shores ?
The Teresh could be the Taruisha of the Hittites, who localized themNorth the Assuwa so near the Troiad, bu they were localized too inLydia, and considered by someones as the Tyrsenoi and Etruscans.
& : an Egyptian sculptor described a Teresh chief with abeard, a short thick nose and thick lips. Concerning Shekelesh, N.K.Sandars considere them the same as the Sikels possibly of Anatolianorigin without ascribe them a family language (I-Ean or not, forus)...


around 1186 occurred what the Egyptians scribes named « Theraids from the Great land and from the Sea ». Supposedconspiration of the enemies in their islands. According to theEgyptians, Hatti, Kode (Kizzuwatna), Carchemish, Arzawa and Alishiya(Cyprus) were silated. In the coalition there were Peleset(Phillistins?), Tjeker (?), Shekelesh, Denyen and Weshesh. Curiouslyor not, a land battle preceded the naval battle. Two wheel cartsdrawn by 4 oxen were described, and in them, women, children :signs of emigration from Anatolia regions, and not only a militaryconquest. It' of some importance for History I personally think.
& : concerning physical aspects, all the enemies aredescribed as slim angulous men with « imperious » andhard aspect, far from the common descriptions of the Amorrites,Syrians and Hittites, these last ones often described as ratherflabby (something evocating today majority of Georgians aside of linguistic considerations ? Idon't now).


This is what I found the book I have. Maybe later studies haveshown more precise geographical localizations ? But the bookgives insights about causes of the Hittite falling down. I seenothing in it about a strong Luwian confederation except the luwian dialect seems having been largely spred. I'll post latersome abstract of the Sandars opinion about this.