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Inya
14-05-16, 19:45
Hello everyone,

I just received my test results and my haplogroup is undoubtedly R1a.
However I would like to know little bit more about my ancestry. Anyone able to read this and give me some more info?




Haplogroup
Probability
Fitness


1
R1a Z282>Z280>>Y35>CTS3402
67.39
61.15


2
R1a Z93>Z94>S23592
29.38
52.07


3
R1a Z93>Z94>Z2123
1.28
57.55


4
R1a Y2395>Z284>L448
1.1
40.22


5
R1a Z282 > Z280 > Z92
0.51
51.29


6
R1a Z93>Z94>L657
0.29
44.72


7
R1a Y2395>Z284>Z287
0.02
52.9


8
R1a M458 Central Europe
0.02
52.24


9
R1a Z282 > Z280 > CTS1211 > YP343
0.01
42.68

ThirdTerm
14-05-16, 22:22
The first major expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (2800-1800 BCE) from the northern forest-steppe in the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, the one that brought the Z283 subclade to Germany and the Netherlands, and Z284 to Scandinavia. The Corded Ware R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 and I2 aborigines, which resulted in the first Indo-European culture in Germany and Scandinavia, although that culture could not be considered Proto-Germanic - it was simply Proto-Indo-European at that stage, or perhaps or Proto-Balto-Slavic.


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4Yl9Q6YhLy8/U0pzLnJr0SI/AAAAAAAAAUQ/waKwjS0qLiU/w400-h208-no/Underhill_Z282_small.png

On the R1a page of this website, you can find diagrams and detailed explanations for these R1a subclades. R1a-Z282 is specific to Europe, highly concentrated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Z93 and Z94 make up the Asian branch of R1a which spread to Central Asia and India and they are associated with the Kurgan culture and the Indo-Aryans. R1a-Z280 is associated with the Baltic-speaking people and its descendant subclade CTS3402 is mainly found in the Dinaric Alps spanning from Albania to Serbia, especially among the Croats. R1a-CTS3402 has high frequencies in Croatia and Southern Poland and CTS3402 may be linked to the Slavic expansion to the Balkans. Your ancestors (Z280>CTS3402) are more likely to have migrated from the Baltic region or Southern Poland to the Balkans. Alternatively, you belong to the Asian branch of R1a (Z93>Z94) with a 29.38% probability, which could have reached the Balkans from Central Asia or Persia.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Me69V1wEFhA/U0pzX4TvBMI/AAAAAAAAAUw/PGVhd2A1xVA/w400-h219-no/Underhill_Z93_small.png



R1a-Z283 is the main Central & East European branch.
R1a-Z284 is a Scandinavian subclade with an epicentre in Norway. It is found also in places colonised by the Norwegian Vikings, like some parts of Scotland, England and Ireland. Several subclades were identified, including L448, L176.1, Z287/Z288, Z66 and Z281 about which little is known at the moment.
R1a-M458, primarily a Slavic subclade, with maximum frequencies in Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, but is also fairly common in southeast Ukraine and northwest Russia.
Its subclade R1a-L260 is clearly West Slavic, with a peak of frequency in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and radiating at lower frequencies into East Germany, East Austria, Slovenia and Hungary.
R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.
R1a-Z93 is the main Asian branch of R1a. It is found in Central Asia, South Asia and Southwest Asia (including among Ashkenazi Jews). R1a-Z93 is the marker of historical peoples such as the Indo-Aryans, Persians, Medes, Mitanni, or Tatars, and pervaded the genetic pool of the Arabs and Jews.

Inya
14-05-16, 22:39
I read everything there but still don't really understand it. For example it says that 280 is not found in Balkans, yet I come from Serbia, and I can trace my roots here all the way to middle ages. I understand that R1a came to Balkans from Yamna culture, starting from 4200BC according to the map, but I would like to know what is the possible migration route for my results.

Kisuan
14-05-16, 23:06
Is it safe if I ask you what ethnicity you are Inya?

Inya
14-05-16, 23:14
Sure, I come from Serbia and it seems I am Slavic.

Kisuan
14-05-16, 23:35
Sure, I come from Serbia and it seems I am Slavic.

That does seem indeed seem to be the case! If I'm reading the R1a page on Eupedia correctly, it seems that the subclade of R1a you belong to seems to be more common in west and east Slavs than in Serbs and other south Slavs.

Inya
14-05-16, 23:46
Yes, that is what I find curious, it seems that R1a accounts only for 15% of population in Serbia, let alone subclude Z280 which should not be present at all. So I wanted to see if someone has more info on possible historical connections.

Kisuan
15-05-16, 01:43
You could be a direct descendant of the original Serbs who migrated from White Serbia to the Balkans. As for others, it seems like a sizable number of modern Serbs are descendants of assimilated local population who lived in the Balkans before the Slavic migrations during the Migration period.

LeBrok
15-05-16, 02:16
You could be a direct descendant of the original Serbs who migrated from White Serbia to the Balkans. As for others, it seems like a sizable number of modern Serbs are descendants of assimilated local population who lived in the Balkans before the Slavic migrations during the Migration period.
It is about right, however exact location of White Serbia and likewise White Croatia is not known. There is also a thread in which we speculate if I2a Dinaric was part of Slavic expansion or not.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans
And this one by Tomenable: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31961-I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228)-a-strong-marker-of-Slavic-expansion
There is a thread by Tomenable in which we are trying to determine Slavic R1a clades.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30760-Slavic-R1a-clades

Milan
15-05-16, 10:32
It is about right, however exact location of White Serbia and likewise White Croatia is not known. There is also a thread in which we speculate if I2a Dinaric was part of Slavic expansion or not.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans
And this one by Tomenable: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31961-I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228)-a-strong-marker-of-Slavic-expansion
There is a thread by Tomenable in which we are trying to determine Slavic R1a clades.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30760-Slavic-R1a-clades

True :confused2:

Kisuan
15-05-16, 23:21
Great threads, LeBrok! As I understand, both R1a and I2a Din are both seemingly strongly connected with Slavs judging by the evolutionary ages of the subclades. However, certainly some of these haplogroup frequencies aren't exclusively Slavic though, right? I notice Greeks, Albanians, and Aromanians have moderate frequencies of both of these haplogroups, and all of these ethnicities are native to the Balkans (way deep in the south as well!). So surely, some of this I2a1 and R1a found in them isn't Slavic, unless we assume they all absorbed quite a large number of Slavs (which I doubt precisely because they are so deep south). Then we have Romanians, Hungarians, and even Kurds too. Have anyone done any major analysis of the R1a and I2a1 (I2a1b especially) found in them (and maybe other non-Slavic ethnicities)? I think there can be good amount of value to be had from discussions about origins of these haplogroups in these specific ethnicities (and pair our conclusions with conclusions made from Tomenable's threads analyzing specific Slavs).

Also, my apologies about my statement on R1a-Z80! It seems R1a-Z80 is much more common in East Slavs than both South Slavs and West Slavs.

LeBrok
16-05-16, 00:43
Great threads, LeBrok! As I understand, both R1a and I2a Din are both seemingly strongly connected with Slavs judging by the evolutionary ages of the subclades. However, certainly some of these haplogroup frequencies aren't exclusively Slavic though, right? I notice Greeks, Albanians, and Aromanians have moderate frequencies of both of these haplogroups, and all of these ethnicities are native to the Balkans (way deep in the south as well!).
Yes, Slavs went into Greece, that's why their clades can be found there.


So surely, some of this I2a1 and R1a found in them isn't Slavic, unless we assume they all absorbed quite a large number of Slavs (which I doubt precisely because they are so deep south). Then we have Romanians, Hungarians, and even Kurds too. Have anyone done any major analysis of the R1a and I2a1 (I2a1b especially) found in them (and maybe other non-Slavic ethnicities)?
I guess, they only could have been pure Slavic during their expansion around 500 AD. Now they are intermixed in all nations of Balkans. I2a Dinaric might have been their before. Only ancient samples can solve this mystery.

Most of us here think that majority of autosomal genes are pre Slavic, local, in Balkans. If you had a chance to get acquainted with EEF, WHG and ANE admixtures of Europeans, you will most likely agree too.

A. Papadimitriou
16-05-16, 01:21
Great threads, LeBrok! As I understand, both R1a and I2a Din are both seemingly strongly connected with Slavs judging by the evolutionary ages of the subclades. However, certainly some of these haplogroup frequencies aren't exclusively Slavic though, right? I notice Greeks, Albanians, and Aromanians have moderate frequencies of both of these haplogroups, and all of these ethnicities are native to the Balkans (way deep in the south as well!). So surely, some of this I2a1 and R1a found in them isn't Slavic, unless we assume they all absorbed quite a large number of Slavs (which I doubt precisely because they are so deep south). Then we have Romanians, Hungarians, and even Kurds too. Have anyone done any major analysis of the R1a and I2a1 (I2a1b especially) found in them (and maybe other non-Slavic ethnicities)? I think there can be good amount of value to be had from discussions about origins of these haplogroups in these specific ethnicities (and pair our conclusions with conclusions made from Tomenable's threads analyzing specific Slavs).

Also, my apologies about my statement on R1a-Z80! It seems R1a-Z80 is much more common in East Slavs than both South Slavs and West Slavs.

We had 'Sclaveniae' in Greece. A part of the population found in Greece may have Slavic or partly Slavic origin. I have a non-traditional view about 'IE expansion' (not based on genetics primarily) but it is better not to say anything about it in this thread.

But look at this
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5K8JFY4ql2A/UMd5Dz-3mGI/AAAAAAAAH84/clbuX0eUa4M/s1600/journal.pone.0050794.g003.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2012/12/y-chromosome-study-of-italy-brisighelli.html

So, it's not that simple.

Kisuan
16-05-16, 23:01
Yes, Slavs went into Greece, that's why their clades can be found there.

I guess, they only could have been pure Slavic during their expansion around 500 AD. Now they are intermixed in all nations of Balkans. I2a Dinaric might have been their before. Only ancient samples can solve this mystery.

Most of us here think that majority of autosomal genes are pre Slavic, local, in Balkans. If you had a chance to get acquainted with EEF, WHG and ANE admixtures of Europeans, you will most likely agree too.
I absolutely agree that the autosomal genes are autochthonous in the Balkans. I managed to see Maciamo's page on admixture featuring the Dodecad and Eurogenes data. High EEF in the Balkans is definitely a relic of the Neolithic and Slavs most certainly couldn't have brought this component. All of this data seems to agree with Tomenable's theory that when the Slavs came to the Balkans they were mostly males who had children with multiple native wives. Hence, we have a clear footprint of the Slavs in the y-dna frequencies but continuity in the mtdna and autosomal components. But I think we still need to look more into this before we come to definitive conclusions.

Kisuan
16-05-16, 23:10
Great link Papadimitriou! It seems quite certain J2, R1b, E1b, and G2 are native to Balkans since it's so high in Albanians, Greeks, and the Aromuns. These frequencies in the Griko reinforce this view, and it seems inevitable to conclude R1a in Balkaners is due to the Slavs due to its relative absence in the Griko. However, one thing bothers me. How did Crete, according to eupedia's frequencies, come to be 9% R1a? Surely Sclavenes didn't settle in Crete did they? The Aegean Islands are also about 10% R1a, and both Crete and the Aegean Islands match up with South and Central Greece pretty well (even Aromuns and Albanians). From this view, it seems to be the only region of Greece that was affected heavily by the Slavs is North Greece..

Inya
16-05-16, 23:14
Thanks for all the replies guys, I stopped receiving email notifications for some reason so I am seeing it only now.

From what I understand, based on my own research, it seems that I2 is the native haplogroup of Europe, and certain subclades can be traced to local prehistorical cultures of Vinca and Lepenski vir. In the period of first migrations R1a and R1b came from Caucasus and the Ukrainian steppes, Yamna culture, some 5,6000 years ago (and since then many other times in waves). They were mainly men of course.

Most of the texts I read seem to agree on these points. But it seems that in my case my lineage is related to Baltic if I understand this correctly, which would mean that my ancestors came from the north at much later date?

Kisuan
16-05-16, 23:51
Thanks for all the replies guys, I stopped receiving email notifications for some reason so I am seeing it only now.

From what I understand, based on my own research, it seems that I2 is the native haplogroup of Europe, and certain subclades can be traced to local prehistorical cultures of Vinca and Lepenski vir. In the period of first migrations R1a and R1b came from Caucasus and the Ukrainian steppes, Yamna culture, some 5,6000 years ago (and since then many other times in waves). They were mainly men of course.

Most of the texts I read seem to agree on these points. But it seems that in my case my lineage is related to Baltic if I understand this correctly, which would mean that my ancestors came from the north at much later date?

Yep, haplogroup I is native to Europe (along with the rare C1). However, Inya, you should check out the thread "The genetic history of Ice Age Europe" because R1b was found in Italy about 14000 years ago. So at least some of the R1b in present-day Europe can be Paleolithic in origin. And yes it seems your R1a clade is likely a latecomer from the north and entered the Balkans during the migration period. See the migration map of R1a on the R1a page and also where R-CTS1211 peaks.

LeBrok
17-05-16, 03:21
I absolutely agree that the autosomal genes are autochthonous in the Balkans. I managed to see Maciamo's page on admixture featuring the Dodecad and Eurogenes data. High EEF in the Balkans is definitely a relic of the Neolithic and Slavs most certainly couldn't have brought this component. Actually Slavs brought this component but in lesser proportion than it existed in Balkans. Therefore EEF got a bit diluted in locals anyway.


All of this data seems to agree with Tomenable's theory that when the Slavs came to the Balkans they were mostly males who had children with multiple native wives. Hence, we have a clear footprint of the Slavs in the y-dna frequencies but continuity in the mtdna and autosomal components. But I think we still need to look more into this before we come to definitive conclusions.They could have their wives, but because they were minorities in conquered lands, their autosomal and Y and mt clades got diluted too in sea of locals.

Kisuan
17-05-16, 06:32
Ah, does that EEF come from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture? Maciamo mentions it under the R1a page and its purportedly a contributor to the Slavic ethnogenesis. However, wouldn't this culture contribute to the ethnogenesis of many other ethnic groups as well then? Cucuteni-Trypillian is right at the corridor for many Indo-European invasions. Surely every migration from the Pontic-Caspian steppe would have picked up some genes from there. Does that mean that I2a-Din is not exclusively Slavic after all? I would imagine then that it'd be hard to identify how much I2a migrated in with the Slavs then later on.

A. Papadimitriou
17-05-16, 12:48
Great link Papadimitriou! It seems quite certain J2, R1b, E1b, and G2 are native to Balkans since it's so high in Albanians, Greeks, and the Aromuns. These frequencies in the Griko reinforce this view, and it seems inevitable to conclude R1a in Balkaners is due to the Slavs due to its relative absence in the Griko. However, one thing bothers me. How did Crete, according to eupedia's frequencies, come to be 9% R1a? Surely Sclavenes didn't settle in Crete did they? The Aegean Islands are also about 10% R1a, and both Crete and the Aegean Islands match up with South and Central Greece pretty well (even Aromuns and Albanians). From this view, it seems to be the only region of Greece that was affected heavily by the Slavs is North Greece..

Not exclusively. I've said before that Turkic-speaking groups like the Cumans, or the Bulgars (and other groups) might have been mostly R1a. And they should have Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian etc descendants. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Some R1a in Greece might be even Varangian. Someone should look at the subclades. I am not so interested to do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

LeBrok
17-05-16, 16:12
Ah, does that EEF come from the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture? and Maykop culture into Yamnaya.




Maciamo mentions it under the R1a page and its purportedly a contributor to the Slavic ethnogenesis. However, wouldn't this culture contribute to the ethnogenesis of many other ethnic groups as well then? Cucuteni-Trypillian is right at the corridor for many Indo-European invasions. Surely every migration from the Pontic-Caspian steppe would have picked up some genes from there. Does that mean that I2a-Din is not exclusively Slavic after all? I would imagine then that it'd be hard to identify how much I2a migrated in with the Slavs then later on. This is where the plot thickens.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31334-What-is-the-main-haplogroup-of-Cucuteni-Trypillian-(Tripolye)-culture
Anxiously waiting for Cucuteni samples.

Kisuan
17-05-16, 23:38
Not exclusively. I've said before that Turkic-speaking groups like the Cumans, or the Bulgars (and other groups) might have been mostly R1a. And they should have Bulgarian, Romanian, Serbian etc descendants. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Some R1a in Greece might be even Varangian. Someone should look at the subclades. I am not so interested to do this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

I have a feeling the Turkic component is minimal or nonexistent. Have you heard of these people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people

The Gagauz are sometimes said to be descendants of the ancient Bulgars/Cumans/even Seljuks or other Oghuz Turkic people. Their language is part of the Oghuz branch. However, if you see their autosomal, they are related to Balkan populations rather than Turkic groups such as the Turkish and Tatars. In terms of y-dna, they match up quite close to other Balkan people too. In fact, geographically closer Moldovans and Romanians have more R1a than the Gagauz people. So certainly it seems that the original bearers of their language disappeared genetically some time ago and the real remnants of these ancient Turkic groups in East Europe are represented only in the Gagauz who were assimilated into their ethnos and their language rather than an actual genetic contribution to the non-Turkic populations. In other words, the "genetic contribution" of these these Turkic groups could just be a moving around of other Balkan populations than actual Central Asian Turks.

The Varangians, by the time they reached Byzantium, were mostly Vikings and Slavs yes? If so, we can count at least some of their genetic contribution as Slavic. But if you insinuate the Vikings bringing R1a as well, then certainly that R1a can be easily identified as the Scandinavian R1a-Z84.

hrvat22
23-05-16, 13:28
It is possible that you are descendant of Croat who in the Turkish time converted to Orthodox Christianity and later became a Serb.

I give example of a person from Dalmatia, which by Serbian myth came from Kosovo or East Herzegovina to Dalmatia but genetics of that person does not come from there.

>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608-A1 (one more Big Y needed)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 351765
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Ruista, Croatia

Jakov Jaric from so-called Serbian village Ruišta northwestern Dalmatia has genetic relatives with local Croats and Kosovo or southern Serbia where from he allegedly inhabited village did not see because this mutation has no source there.

Local Croats..

Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP3929
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 97870
Most Distant Ancestor: Soccotta 1600s Zadar County Dalmatia
Marker Location: Ždrelac, Pašman, Croatia

>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613-x3 Unclustered (Big Y or Z280 SNP pack needed)
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: 206668
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Poljana, Preko, Croatia

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap


It is logical that part of local Croats in the Turkish period converted to Orthodox Christianity and Islam, and it now evident in genetics.

After year 1804..
When you examine origin of šumadian population, we see that among them there are very few natives. In Šumadian areas: Kačeri, Gruži, Lepenica, Kragujevac, Jasenica, Smederevo, Danube region and Jasenica, Kosmaj and in villages near Belgrade we are investigated origin of 8894 genus with 52,475 houses. Of this number, only 464 genus with 3603 houses are natives, there are and population of unknown origin (470 genus with 2464 houses), but all other Šumadian (central Serbia) population was migrant and immigrant families and they have 7960 genus with 46,408 houses. Sumadia settled immigrants from almost all parts of our present-day kingdom, but most of the local Dinaric areas, that is Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, of Sjenica and Novi Pazar, Kolasin, from Pešteri and Bihor, from Dalmatia (Croatia), Lika(Croatia) and other parts of Dinaric.

http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1998/10/article-1.html


Your data are not much explored but there is a possibility that you have Serbian Specific type R1a..

Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>YP611>YP3987>YP3992
Name: Not Disclosed
Kit Number: E15896
Most Distant Ancestor: N/A
Marker Location: Jasenica, Republic of Srpska
Lat, Lng: (44.528, 19.0911)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ymap

Inya
23-05-16, 13:47
I am really not interested in having a politics discussion here, but I did my research on haplogroups and I know that relating haplogroups to nations is definitely a wrong approach, especially with small countries like Serbia and Croatia. The fact is that we are all mixed, both Serbs and Croats (like any other nation) so I don't think you can really make any conclusions of this sort... As far as I am concern, I definitely belong to a great Slavic nation, and I couldn't be bothered to argue whose village is better... :)

hrvat22
23-05-16, 14:05
We in Croatia are bombarded from Serbia last hundred years that we are Catholic Serbs .. However with arrival of genetics we see just opposite ...

It is interesting that smaller or larger parts of Czechs, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Belarusians, etc. are White Croatian origin, it says genetics not me.

Inya
23-05-16, 14:15
So go open a thread and tell the world how you feel. And argue with other Serbs and Croats who care. I really don't care man...

hrvat22
23-05-16, 14:37
At the end it will be important because it is a genetic fact which is irrefutable. If you are Serb and through male line have relatives in Croatia who never come from Serbia to Croatia then you are through male line Croatian origin.

This is not a politics, if you have genetic relatives in Croatia what I'm not allowed to say that.

In the world people explore their genes and finde relatives all over world, your relatives are by male line in Croatia if you have mutation Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP3929
older ancestor are in southe Poland ( White Croatia) or the Baltic.

And why this is so because parts of Croats converted to Orthodox Christianity and later became Serbs, nothing mystical, and this is evident in the genes.

Artmar
23-05-16, 17:18
Hello everyone,

I just received my test results and my haplogroup is undoubtedly R1a.
However I would like to know little bit more about my ancestry. Anyone able to read this and give me some more info?

Have you tested at FTDNA? In such case, I invite you to join an R1a Project. I can't post a link to a project though, because my post count is lower than 10.

LeBrok
23-05-16, 18:27
We in Croatia are bombarded from Serbia last hundred years that we are Catholic Serbs .. However with arrival of genetics we see just opposite ...

It is interesting that smaller or larger parts of Czechs, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Belarusians, etc. are White Croatian origin, it says genetics not me.
Stop with this White Croatia non-sense finally. Someone mentioned White Croats long time ago in some chronical and you are blowing it up into founding fathers of all Slavs. I wonder why, maybe because you are a Croat? This is crazy!!!
Genetics tells you shit about "White Croats". We don't know the exact place they were located, or if they were in transition or not, or anything about their genetics.

LeBrok
23-05-16, 18:32
I am really not interested in having a politics discussion here, but I did my research on haplogroups and I know that relating haplogroups to nations is definitely a wrong approach, especially with small countries like Serbia and Croatia. The fact is that we are all mixed, both Serbs and Croats (like any other nation) so I don't think you can really make any conclusions of this sort... As far as I am concern, I definitely belong to a great Slavic nation, and I couldn't be bothered to argue whose village is better... :)
Keep in perspective, that Y DNA represents only 2% of your whole DNA. The big 98% can tell you more important story.

Milan
23-05-16, 19:06
There is problem with that White Croatia story,but there is also hypothesis and recorded names.
I might start one day separate thread about this stories.
Tanais Tablets


Among the names on the tablets are those of three men: Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Those names scholars interpret as anthroponyms of the Croatian ethnonym Hrvat.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Horovathos.jpg
Interestingly there is to be found also the name Porga,which is mythicized first Croatian ruler.

hrvat22
23-05-16, 20:49
Stop with this White Croatia non-sense finally. Someone mentioned White Croats long time ago in some chronical and you are blowing it up into founding fathers of all Slavs. I wonder why, maybe because you are a Croat? This is crazy!!!
Genetics tells you shit about "White Croats". We don't know the exact place they were located, or if they were in transition or not, or anything about their genetics.

I do not know do you understand, Porphyrogenitus in 10th century claims that Croats from White Croatia settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia.
Genetics confirms that only for Croats in Balkans there is a path from point A to point B as Porfirogenet claims, Serbs arrive from Greece to Balkans and only genetics of today's people in the Balkans that comes from Greece to Bosnia and Croatia are Wallachian group in the Turkish period who are mostly become Serbs.

Therefore White Croatia may be in Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic or Slovakia does not matter, and from there one group comes to Balkans, with its epicenter in Croatia and Bosnia. The only record that confirms genetic path is story about Croats and logically leads to conclusion that they came only as Croats which are divided and become this or that.

Does it now a clearer.

You have on the Serbian genetic website claim that Serbs are genetically heterogeneous, unlike Croats and others who are more homogeneous and reason for this is that all Orthodox Vlachs, Croats, Bulgarians, Albanians after departure of Turks from Balkans become Serbs and it is now evident in genetics .
It's like when Jewish women are surprised that they have origin from Sweden, Poland, Germany, Denmark, etc. This is because Jews have married European women and it is now evident in genetics through female line.

Shetop
23-05-16, 22:23
Yes, that is what I find curious, it seems that R1a accounts only for 15% of population in Serbia, let alone subclude Z280 which should not be present at all. So I wanted to see if someone has more info on possible historical connections.

Your source of information is not correct. Solid majority of R1a in Serbia is exactly R-Z280.
There is also a consensus about how R-Z280 reached Balkans. It is assumed majority (not all) of it came from Northeast with the Slavs.

Inya
24-05-16, 01:38
Your source of information is not correct. Solid majority of R1a in Serbia is exactly R-Z280.
There is also a consensus about how R-Z280 reached Balkans. It is assumed majority (not all) of it came from Northeast with the Slavs.

My source of information is this website (Ydna maps and R1a article) Also it seems that the dominant R1a subclade in Serbia is M458, although Z280 is also present.

Shetop
24-05-16, 09:07
My source of information is this website (Ydna maps and R1a article) Also it seems that the dominant R1a subclade in Serbia is M458, although Z280 is also present.

I don't understand where are you getting that data from. Can you provide some link or a quote?
One very credible study found 15% of R1a in Serbia, and R-M458 was 3.5%. It is "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a": http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

This table is from the mentioned study and contains results for different R1a branches. There you will see R-Z280 is significantly more frequent in Serbia compared to R-M458:

http://i60.tinypic.com/dmg28l.png

A. Papadimitriou
24-05-16, 12:49
I do not know do you understand, Porphyrogenitus in 10th century claims that Croats from White Croatia settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia.
Genetics confirms that only for Croats in Balkans there is a path from point A to point B as Porfirogenet claims, Serbs arrive from Greece to Balkans and only genetics of today's people in the Balkans that comes from Greece to Bosnia and Croatia are Wallachian group in the Turkish period who are mostly become Serbs.

Therefore White Croatia may be in Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic or Slovakia does not matter, and from there one group comes to Balkans, with its epicenter in Croatia and Bosnia. The only record that confirms genetic path is story about Croats and logically leads to conclusion that they came only as Croats which are divided and become this or that.


The text says that Belochrovati were near Francia, subjects to king Otto, so within Holy Roman Empire but also near the 'Turks' (=Magyars) with whom they had good relations. I believe, even Austria is possible.
Also, apart from the name Chrovats the names Servli, Zachlumi, Tervuniotae, Kanalitae, Diocletiani and Pagani are used by Constantine VII for Sclavenes in the same region.

Inya
24-05-16, 17:49
I am not an expert so you may be right. My info of 15% comes from here: eupedia com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA shtml (can't post links)

Artmar
24-05-16, 19:53
I see that my post was probably lost in the flood of irrelevant ones.

Inya
24-05-16, 20:05
I see that my post was probably lost in the flood of irrelevant ones.

Hey, no man, thanks for the feedback, but the thing is that I did my testing in a local center for genetics, so I guess that means I don't qualify?

Artmar
25-05-16, 14:51
Hey, no man, thanks for the feedback, but the thing is that I did my testing in a local center for genetics, so I guess that means I don't qualify?
I still can take a look at your Y-STR markers :)

Inya
25-05-16, 20:59
I still can take a look at your Y-STR markers :) Why not, PM me your contact details.

hrvat22
03-06-16, 20:31
The text says that Belochrovati were near Francia, subjects to king Otto, so within Holy Roman Empire but also near the 'Turks' (=Magyars) with whom they had good relations. I believe, even Austria is possible.
Also, apart from the name Chrovats the names Servli, Zachlumi, Tervuniotae, Kanalitae, Diocletiani and Pagani are used by Constantine VII for Sclavenes in the same region.


because they are constantly plundered by Franks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks), Turks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians) and Pechenegs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechenegs).


Then Pechenegs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechenegs) had to attack Hungarians and Francs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechenegs

Therefore White Croatia had to be northeastern in Poland and western Ukraine, in southwestern Ukraine there are about 50 forts that are linked with White Croats.


Also, apart from the name Chrovats the names Servli, Zachlumi, Tervuniotae, Kanalitae, Diocletiani and Pagani are used by Constantine VII for Sclavenes in the same region.

In White Croatia there are not any Servli, Zachlumi, Tervuniotae, Kanalitae, Diocletiani and Pagani...Today genetically people of this area come as Croats not as Servli, Zachlumi, Tervuniotae, Kanalitae, Diocletiani and Pagani..Croats have not come to Croatia as Tervuniotae but they are genetically same people, this logically suggests that they come as Croats who were later divided.


Tribe proconsul and patrician Michael, son of Višetinog, Archon of Zachlumi comes from unbaptized who lived on the river Vistula


Those who now live in Zahumlje, the Serbs from the time of that Archon who sought protection of Emperor Heraclius.


When is one Serb mentioned on the Vistula, Serbs according Porphyrogenetus coming from three directions on the Balkan and genetics does not confirm either one, that is because they came to Balkans as Croats who were later divided and become this or that.

A. Papadimitriou
03-06-16, 23:07
White Croatia can't be in Northeastern Poland or Ukraine. It should be at least West of Vistula, near 'Francia'. If you read the text it will become obvious.
I am not interested in convincing you, really.

hrvat22
04-06-16, 07:33
White Croatia can't be in Northeastern Poland or Ukraine. It should be at least West of Vistula, near 'Francia'. If you read the text it will become obvious.
I am not interested in convincing you, really.


Do you have genetic ...which Austria..

Ruins of White Croats were found in southwestern Ukraine, main Croatian haplotype I2a originate in southeastern Poland and extreme western Ukraine..

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

Stiljsko is a village in Lviv province (Mykolaiv district) near Lviv in Ukraine. The archaeological site in that location has great significance for research of history and life of White Croatians.

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiljsko

LeBrok
04-06-16, 17:17
White Croatia can't be in Northeastern Poland or Ukraine. It should be at least West of Vistula, near 'Francia'. If you read the text it will become obvious.
I am not interested in convincing you, really.Wise decision. It is like religion to him.

sljoza
09-07-16, 19:19
Greetings Inya, I also come from Serbia and have, allow to say, fairly similar Y-test result as you did.

I came 100% probability R1a Y2395>Z284>L448.

Is it not personal question to ask of which geographical part of Serbia does your Y-tree line come from?

Also, does anyone have any more info on those L448 and Y2395?

Thank you in advance!

Hauteville
09-07-16, 19:24
I don't understand where are you getting that data from. Can you provide some link or a quote?
One very credible study found 15% of R1a in Serbia, and R-M458 was 3.5%. It is "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a": http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/full/ejhg201450a.html

This table is from the mentioned study and contains results for different R1a branches. There you will see R-Z280 is significantly more frequent in Serbia compared to R-M458:

http://i60.tinypic.com/dmg28l.png
We Italians have similar percentage of R1a all over the country except from the Friuli.

srdceleva
10-07-16, 13:21
hmm interesting results, maybe your family tree isnt correct, possible a russian grandfather?

Garrick
13-07-16, 23:17
You could be a direct descendant of the original Serbs who migrated from White Serbia to the Balkans. As for others, it seems like a sizable number of modern Serbs are descendants of assimilated local population who lived in the Balkans before the Slavic migrations during the Migration period.

Only myths, never proved. And Serbs have nothing with Sorbs. Sorbian language is similar to Polish, Kashubian and Czeck, it is not South Slavic language as Serbian.

Garrick
13-07-16, 23:21
It is about right, however exact location of White Serbia and likewise White Croatia is not known. There is also a thread in which we speculate if I2a Dinaric was part of Slavic expansion or not.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans
And this one by Tomenable: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31961-I2a1b2a1-(I-CTS10228)-a-strong-marker-of-Slavic-expansion
There is a thread by Tomenable in which we are trying to determine Slavic R1a clades.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30760-Slavic-R1a-clades

Yes, LeBrok. We see only speculations, nothing more. A lot of water will elapse Danube (many studies are needed) until we obtain a more accurate picture.

Garrick
13-07-16, 23:30
My source of information is this website (Ydna maps and R1a article) Also it seems that the dominant R1a subclade in Serbia is M458, although Z280 is also present.

No Inya, dominant R1a subclade at Croats is M458, but at Serbs is Z280.

You can see proportion mayor R1a subclades among Slavic population:

http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png