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View Full Version : Mapping Human Disperal from an Arabian Refugium using MtDna R0a



Angela
18-05-16, 22:31
This is a very interesting, comprehensive, and provocaative paper doing for mtDna RO1 what a recent paper did for U6. Even though this is all modern dna, through the use of whole genomes and very careful subclade analysis they are giving us some very valuable information about population genetics which can serve as an adjunct to autosomal analysis.

See:

Landini et al (Achili, Cruciani and Semino are also authors): "Mapping human dispersals into the Horn of Africa from Arabian Ice Age refugia using mitogenomes

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301945012_Mapping_human_dispersals_into_the_Horn_o f_Africa_from_Arabian_Ice_Age_refugia_using_mitoge nomes

"Rare mitochondrial lineages with relict distributions can sometimes be disproportionately informative about deep events in human prehistory. We have studied one such lineage, haplogroup R0a, which uniquely is most frequent in Arabia and the Horn of Africa, but is distributed much more widely, fromEurope to India. We conclude that:

(1) the lineage ancestral to R0a is more ancient than previously thought, with a relict distribution across the Mediterranean/Southwest Asia;

(2) R0a has a much deeper presence in Arabia than previously thought, highlighting the role of at least one Pleistocene glacial refugium, perhaps on the Red Sea plains;

3) the main episode of dispersal into Eastern Africa, at least concerning maternal lineages, was at the end of the Late Glacial, due to major expansions from one or
more refugia in Arabia;

(4) there was likely a minor Late Glacial/early postglacial dispersal from Arabia
through the Levant and into Europe, possibly alongside other lineages from Levantine refugium; and

(5) the presence of R0a in Southwest Arabia in the Holocene at the nexus of a trading network that developed after ~3 ka between Africa and the Indian Ocean led to some gene ow even further aeld, into Iran, Pakistan and India."

Number 2 may refer to the "Red Sea" component which Dienekes was tracking with some experiments.

Number 3 is of interest concerning the many debates over when major gene flows from Arabia to East Africa took place. It's also interesting that as the ancient dna comes in, there is agreement between it and uniparental analysis about the importance, indeed predominant importance, of these postglacial dispersals.

Number 4 may have something to say about our recent debates as to whether there was postglacial movement from the Near East into Europe before the Neolithic.

As I plow through it, I'll post things of interest.

Angela
18-05-16, 23:00
Some interesting tentative conclusions:
"R0a, dating to ~30 ka using ML (Table1) falls into at least ve major subclades, three (R0a1, R0a2’3 and R0a4) already known 17,33 and two (R0a5 and R0a6) newly dened here (Fig.1). Two further basal haplotypes (#201 and #202) are seen in Italy and Spain, respectively. Along with a third lineage basal to R0a1 known from control-region data to occur in Egypt (Fig. S1), and the distribution of the very rare R0b, these might suggest a pre-LGM Mediterranean/Near Eastern source for R0a and R0a1, 25–40 ka. Alternatively, they might represent relicts of Late Glacial or postglacial dispersals around the Mediterranean."

"R0a4, R0a5 and R0a6 are all rare. A survey of the R0a5 HVS-I motif indicates a wide distribution across the Near East and Europe (Table S2), and a deep Glacial ancestry (36.9 ± 14.1 ka with HVS-I; the two mitogenomes diverge at 18.8 ± 6.6 ka). A similar assessment for haplogroup R0a6 is more dicult, because its only
control-region mutation is the reversion of the 16126 transition, but its distribution appears to be mainly restricted to Pakistan (mainly but not exclusively Kalash), with Palestinian, Iranian and Italian singletons (see also Fig. S1). Given its prevalence in the Kalash, we may hope that future elucidation of this lineage may help shed light on the origins of the Kalash people."

Certainly very interesting in light of our recent conversations about the Fu et al paper from the Reich Lab. We'll see whether the publication of new ancient dna data supports what they see in the mtDna.





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bicicleur
18-05-16, 23:47
It goes together with Y DNA J* which is very rare, except in Socotra where more than 70 % of the males have it.
This J* probably survived LGM on the Persian Gulf floor (more likely than the Red Sea plains) and after that expanded into Southern Arabia, south of the Rub-Al-Khali desert.
Then the Arabs, J1-P58 came in and started irrigated farming in western Jemen. When the Arabs domesticated the Arabian Camel some 3000 years ago they took the trade in frankincense and myrh, which growes in the Hadramut, southern Arabia, and many competing Arabian kingdoms arose. They probably displaced the aboriginal J* population whose only safe haven was the island of Socotra. R0a were probably the wives of J*. Some of them married the incoming Arabs. Others were displaced along with their J* husbands.

7738773977407741

the Rub-Al-Khali, the 'empty quarter'
camel caravan routes going around the Rub-Al-Khali passing western Jemen
Socotra
the queen of Sheba known from frankincense and myrh trade

Angela
19-05-16, 15:48
bicicleur;480305]It goes together with Y DNA J* which is very rare, except in Socotra where more than 70 % of the males have it.
This J* probably survived LGM on the Persian Gulf floor (more likely than the Red Sea plains) and after that expanded into Southern Arabia, south of the Rub-Al-Khali desert.
Then the Arabs, J1-P58 came in and started irrigated farming in western Jemen. When the Arabs domesticated the Arabian Camel some 3000 years ago they took the trade in frankincense and myrh, which growes in the Hadramut, southern Arabia, and many competing Arabian kingdoms arose. They probably displaced the aboriginal J* population whose only safe haven was the island of Socotra. R0a were probably the wives of J*. Some of them married the incoming Arabs. Others were displaced along with their J* husbands.

7738773977407741

the Rub-Al-Khali, the 'empty quarter'
camel caravan routes going around the Rub-Al-Khali passing western Jemen
Socotra
the queen of Sheba known from frankincense and myrh trade

Why do you think that the original refugia was in the now submerged gulf region rather than the plains near the Red Sea?

Also, if that was the home of J* where was IJ* and I* to your way of thinking?

So, another population expansion in part fueled by the domestication of an animal. Very interesting.

I've always been fascinated by the whole Queen of Sheba story in the Bible. Last year I watched this documentary on youtube about her. It's quite good if you have an interest and the time to watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAIcuDSOx0w

There's always been some speculation that the "Song of Songs" attributed to Solomon is about her.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song%20of%20Solomon%201&version=ESV

For anyone who never saw the old Yul Brynner, Gina Lollobrigida film called "Solomon and Sheba", I was surprised to discover that the whole thing is on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI3uU1ON3j4

bicicleur
19-05-16, 16:54
this article hints at the Persian Gulf as a refugium during both LGM and the GM before the last
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/657397?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

but Red Sea is possible too : similar tools as found in Abdur reef (Red Sea) turned up in Jebel Faya (Persian Gulf) some 130 ka, at the end of the GM before the last, suggesting a migration all around south-Arabia when the seawater level was low
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003101820300659X
http://news.utexas.edu/2000/05/02/nr_seafood
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110127/full/news.2011.55.html

I put IJ* in Georgia (Dzudzuana cave 42 ka) and Mezmayskaya Cave (39 ka), northwest side of the Caucasus
when the sea level was lower then today, it was quite easy to walk along the eastern shore of the Black Sea and bypass the Caucasus
Gravettian evolved from 39 ka Mezmayskaya Cave
Georgia was abandonned short before LGM
the Socatra J* must have returned from Europe to Georgia before LGM and from there moved further south during LGM
J1, J2a and J2b I believe were the Epigravettian near the Crimea peninsula during LGM, and 19 ka moved south to Georgia, Armenia and Anatolia
that is when the Epigravettian appeared in Kalavan, Kotias Klde and Satsurblia

that is my story
it is very speculative
every time new facts emerge, I adapt my story

the queen of Sheba inspired many stories
the picture I added is from a silent movie about the Queen of Sheba

Angela
19-05-16, 18:00
this article hints at the Persian Gulf as a refugium during both LGM and the GM before the last
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/657397?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

but Red Sea is possible too : similar tools as found in Abdur reef (Red Sea) turned up in Jebel Faya (Persian Gulf) some 130 ka, at the end of the GM before the last, suggesting a migration all around south-Arabia when the seawater level was low
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003101820300659X
http://news.utexas.edu/2000/05/02/nr_seafood
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110127/full/news.2011.55.html

I put IJ* in Georgia (Dzudzuana cave 42 ka) and Mezmayskaya Cave (39 ka), northwest side of the Caucasus
when the sea level was lower then today, it was quite easy to walk along the eastern shore of the Black Sea and bypass the Caucasus
Gravettian evolved from 39 ka Mezmayskaya Cave
Georgia was abandonned short before LGM
the Socatra J* must have returned from Europe to Georgia before LGM and from there moved further south during LGM
J1, J2a and J2b I believe were the Epigravettian near the Crimea peninsula during LGM, and 19 ka moved south to Georgia, Armenia and Anatolia
that is when the Epigravettian appeared in Kalavan, Kotias Klde and Satsurblia


Thanks for the links; I'm going to check them out.

You think then that the Gravettian moved into Europe from the northwest Caucasus, brought by yDna "I*"? They entered that area from the south?

Why do think that J* came back from Europe to Socotra? Do you mean that you think it moved back south of the Caucasus before the LGM?

That does all sound reasonable.

I've also been thinking about the Crimea as the source of the Epigravettian. However, if they were J1, J2a and J2b, why are the samples so far yDna I and now R1b?


that is my story
it is very speculative
every time new facts emerge, I adapt my story


In my opinion anyone who doesn't acknowledge that this is all just speculation, and tries to shoehorn the facts into a certain narrative while ignoring any data to the contrary or the lack of data, for that matter, is usually so blinded by an agenda that their conclusions can't be trusted. Adapting one's "story" as new facts emerge is what reasonable and honest people do, and certainly what anyone pretending to apply the scientific method should do.


the queen of Sheba inspired many stories
the picture I added is from a silent movie about the Queen of Sheba

I remember seeing the "Solomon and Sheba" movie on American tv when I was a teenager. They used to rebroadcast a lot of the old films. Of course, that was before some moguls bought them up and restricted access. Movies like that were part of what fueled my life long fascination with ancient history. However, I won't deny that the love story was the most enthralling part of it for me at the time. Such beautiful people the main actors were, and what gorgeous cinematography, even if the spin on the story was sort of cheesy. I didn't notice that at the time. :) It was also the start of my life long adolescent crush on Yul Brynner (I definitely liked him better once he shaved his head, however. In fact, I very much like shaved heads on men, from Telly Savalas to Montalbano. Is that perverse of me? :)) I think I've seen every movie he ever made, and I saw him on Broadway, too, in "The King and I". The latter is a total fabrication, of course, but who cares!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZdRxI8DX8

bicicleur
20-05-16, 07:51
Thanks for the links; I'm going to check them out.

You think then that the Gravettian moved into Europe from the northwest Caucasus, brought by yDna "I*"? They entered that area from the south?

Why do think that J* came back from Europe to Socotra? Do you mean that you think it moved back south of the Caucasus before the LGM?

That does all sound reasonable.

I've also been thinking about the Crimea as the source of the Epigravettian. However, if they were J1, J2a and J2b, why are the samples so far yDna I and now R1b?



I taught I* was the source of the gravettian, but since discovery of J in Kotias Klde and Satsurblia and since the recent Ice Age Europe study, I now believe IJ* to be the source of Gravettian. I believe these people entered Europe along the east coast of the Black Sea 39 ka.
36 ka people in Mezmayskaya made a very important invention : borers which allowed them to drill the eye in a needle in an efficient way.
These needles were imortant for clothing and tents on the cold European steppe. Gravettian people had far more needles than Aurignacian.
For drilling holes, google 'Sungir man beads'.
Sungir is a place 400 km further north than Kostenki, Aurignacians didn't go that far north.

7742

I'm not sure the term Epigravettian is well defined. It seems to me there are different Epigravettians, like the Eastern Epigravettian (Crimea, Roumenia) and Italian Eprigravettian (Italy, Carpathian Basin)

The human presence in Georgia during UP seems to be intermittent, not continuously.
There seems to be a link between 42 ka Dzudzuana and 39 ka Mezmayskaya.
There is also a link with Europe after LGM, through Epigravettian.
There seems to have been human presence 27-23 ka, but there is a gap 23-19 ka (during LGM)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111271
I suspect the 27-23 ka people were the Socotra J*, and the cold climate during LGM with lack of faunal resources drove them further south.

Apart from Kostenki 14 the oldest East-European Y-DNA we have is 7.5 ka Karelian.
They were J and R1a1*.
It looks like J was replaced in Eastern Europe by R1a and R1b.

bicicleur
20-05-16, 08:10
I remember seeing the "Solomon and Sheba" movie on American tv when I was a teenager. They used to rebroadcast a lot of the old films. Of course, that was before some moguls bought them up and restricted access. Movies like that were part of what fueled my life long fascination with ancient history. However, I won't deny that the love story was the most enthralling part of it for me at the time. Such beautiful people the main actors were, and what gorgeous cinematography, even if the spin on the story was sort of cheesy. I didn't notice that at the time. :) It was also the start of my life long adolescent crush on Yul Brynner (I definitely liked him better once he shaved his head, however. In fact, I very much like shaved heads on men, from Telly Savalas to Montalbano. Is that perverse of me? :)) I think I've seen every movie he ever made, and I saw him on Broadway, too, in "The King and I". The latter is a total fabrication, of course, but who cares!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZdRxI8DX8

they made a lot of 'spectacle movies' in historical contexts back then
I don't have the patience to watch long movies, but I liked these movies

of course the 'Queen of Sheba' is a very special character, a powerfull and very sensual lady
every man loves this lady but realises she's 'out of his league'

I'm proud to still have a full head of hair with only a few grey, I don't shave it.
But the older a man gets, the more hair starts to grow where it shouldn't and the less on his head.

For 'the king and I' check king RamathibodiII of Ayutthaya if you're interested.

Angela
20-05-16, 17:13
I taught I* was the source of the gravettian, but since discovery of J in Kotias Klde and Satsurblia and since the recent Ice Age Europe study, I now believe IJ* to be the source of Gravettian. I believe these people entered Europe along the east coast of the Black Sea 39 ka.
36 ka people in Mezmayskaya made a very important invention : borers which allowed them to drill the eye in a needle in an efficient way.
These needles were imortant for clothing and tents on the cold European steppe. Gravettian people had far more needles than Aurignacian.
For drilling holes, google 'Sungir man beads'.
Sungir is a place 400 km further north than Kostenki, Aurignacians didn't go that far north.

7742

I'm not sure the term Epigravettian is well defined. It seems to me there are different Epigravettians, like the Eastern Epigravettian (Crimea, Roumenia) and Italian Eprigravettian (Italy, Carpathian Basin)

The human presence in Georgia during UP seems to be intermittent, not continuously.
There seems to be a link between 42 ka Dzudzuana and 39 ka Mezmayskaya.
There is also a link with Europe after LGM, through Epigravettian.
There seems to have been human presence 27-23 ka, but there is a gap 23-19 ka (during LGM)
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111271
I suspect the 27-23 ka people were the Socotra J*, and the cold climate during LGM with lack of faunal resources drove them further south.

Apart from Kostenki 14 the oldest East-European Y-DNA we have is 7.5 ka Karelian.
They were J and R1a1*.
It looks like J was replaced in Eastern Europe by R1a and R1b.

It hangs together, certainly, for the Gravettian.

I'm not so sure about the Epigravettian. You're seeing it as moving from the Crimea west and it was just chance that the "I" lines prevailed over the "J" lines?

Doesn't the chronology show that it's older to the west?

For the 64 million dollar question, how did R1b1 get into Epigravettian Italy? Where were they hiding? Mal'ta is increasingly looking like a dead end to me. He was the last of his group, as others have pointed out. They must have moved to a refugia. Perhaps it was further southwest, as has also been pointed out. So far it doesn't look as if they were part of the Gravettian "mammoth hunters", but that could change tomorrow, of course. Still, they just seem to have barely hung on for a very long time, yes?

This source for the Epigravettian would, however, explain the relationship to CHG and perhaps the similarity between the WHG and some ancestors of Middle Easterners, but what to make of how different these people are in terms of skeletal structure and other "physical" traits? Could it all come down to the effects of evolution because of natural selection, or was there some admixture with some other early branch of West Eurasians?


I'm proud to still have a full head of hair with only a few grey, I don't shave it.

Beata te. :) I've been going grey since my thirties (grazie, Nonna). As a result, I'm a martyr to my hairdresser. Unlike most women I loathe being a prisoner in those chairs for hours a month, although I have to say it's great for reading, with the added benefit that you can overhear all the juicy gossip. Just stay quiet as a mouse engrossed in your book or Kindle and people just let loose with the most extraordinary stuff while sitting right next to you!

bicicleur
20-05-16, 18:24
I don't have a good view on the epigravettian, what was their speical technology or survival technique, nor where was the origin and how it dispersed.
I only understand it spread very rapidly on a very wide area.
If you know a good read on the Epigravettian, let me know.

As for pre-Indo-European dispersal of R1a/R1b branch, the picture is still very misty and complicated.
And the Villabruna R1b1 doesn't make it any simpler.
Jean Manco says they were in Hoti and Belt caves 14 ka.
I also think so, they were in Azerbaijian, NW Iran and SW Turkmenistan, the southern Caspian Sea area.
But I don't see the same itinary from Mal'ta to Hoti and Belt Jean Manco sees.
IMO Q and R were born out of P1 between the Altaï Mts and Lake Bajkal, and I think Q1a1 survived LGM in that area but not R.
I think they fled southwest during LGM to the northern Hindu Kush, the Kupruk area.
Kupruk is northern Afghanistan, I don't think much research will be done over there in the near future, so it's all guesswork.
It seems the Kupruk area was inhabited 30 - 15 ka.
https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html
I place there R1a, R1b, R2 and Q1b.
From there R2 moved south and eventually got in the Indus Valley.
R1a and R1b moved west to the southern Caspian Sea area and from there dispersed further.
The main dispersal was northward along the western coast of the Caspian Sea.
7743
the level of the Caspian Sea has fluctuated considerably during and after LGM
the red line shows when it discharged water from the melting ice caps into the Black Sea via the Manych depression ; the spillover point is at +/- 22 meters above todays sea level ;
the Caspian Sea came till the Ural Mts then.
I believe R1a and R1b dispersed along the rivers and lakes of eastern Europe.
David Anthony tells in his famous book in one of his first chapters about the Dnjepr Rapids, 10 ka when 3 tribes with different skhull types and different burial customs were fighting over controll of the area, and finally 1 single tribe was left, one of the 2 dolycephalic tribes.
IMO the 2 dolycephalic tribes were were R1a/R1a, the other tribe, who was there first was I/J.

It doesn't explain the early arrival of R1b1 Villabruna 14 ka.
I guess it was a dead end branch wandering in.

bicicleur
20-05-16, 19:50
Beata te. :) I've been going grey since my thirties (grazie, Nonna). As a result, I'm a martyr to my hairdresser. Unlike most women I loathe being a prisoner in those chairs for hours a month, although I have to say it's great for reading, with the added benefit that you can overhear all the juicy gossip. Just stay quiet as a mouse engrossed in your book or Kindle and people just let loose with the most extraordinary stuff while sitting right next to you!

I'm at war with the excess hair that starts to grow everywhere on my body.
Unlike your war which you turned into a social event, I'm a lone warrior.
I started to grow hair on my chest, but to my dispair a lot more grows on my right chest than on my left chest.
Luckily I can shave it.
But now, standing in front of the mirror in the morning, I notice, hair starts to grow from my back and from my ears.
Now on a lonely winters evening I start poking my ears, trying to tear as much hair out of it as I can.
And in the morning when I've finished shaving my face, I try to reach with my razor knife as far over my shoulders as I can.

Angela
21-05-16, 00:36
[QUOTE=bicicleur;480360]I don't have a good view on the epigravettian, what was their speical technology or survival technique, nor where was the origin and how it dispersed.
I only understand it spread very rapidly on a very wide area.
If you know a good read on the Epigravettian, let me know.

When the paper came out I tried to do a quick refresher course for myself, but the scholarship, such as it is, seems rather a muddle to me. According to some researchers, it spans the whole area from Italy (even neighboring Provence according to some authors) to Ukraine, and south into Anatolia and the Levant. Some authors even see it in North Africa.

Then, one book I found says that the categorization of a site as "Epigravettian" shouldn't necessarily be considered definitive as some researchers have just lumped things together by chronology rather than by cultural (including lithic) differences, and so some supposedly Epigravettian sites are just late Magdalenian and some are late Gravettian, and on and on.

Anyway, here are some citations for your week-end. :)

https://books.google.com/books?id=nXuqgInMOXIC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Epigravettian+lithic+tool+assemblages&source=bl&ots=UnviKwSAGI&sig=zKTePN_rl3W4hsTwVRTTwhU7aDo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAkZnbmunMAhUBeT4KHZtbBhgQ6AEIMzAE#v=on epage&q=Epigravettian%20lithic%20tool%20assemblages&f=false

"Backed tools" at a 16,000 BP "Epigravettian" site in northern Hungary:
https://www.academia.edu/9099654/Backed_tool_technology_at_Esztergom-Gyurgyalag_Epigravettian_site_in_Hungary

I sometimes read this blog now that Matilda has abandoned hers. This is the post on the Epigravettian of Liguria.
http://www.aggsbach.de/2016/01/balzi-rossi-rochers-rouges-caves-and-the-ligurian-epigravettian/

He highlights some of the problems with categorization. For example, " Is the chronological status of shouldered points in Central East Europe really well defined and restricted to post-Pavlovian times? Are Shouldered Points sometimes the by-product of the production of backed implements?"

This one is very interesting:
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf

It mainly discusses the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian to Epigravettian period. The authros seem to conclude that there was a "cultural entitiy" whatever that means, between the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian, if I'm reading it correctly, with some technological markers being earlier in Anatolia than in the Balkans. This is despite the fact that they hunted different game: chamois and horse in the Balkans, and wild goat, sheep and deer in Anatolia. Clearly no mammoth in either place. They maintain that the Kabaran of the Levant was different.

In the Late Glacial, which they define as 16,000 to 14,000 before present some of the influences went from the Balkans to Anatolia. Interestingly, it is in the Balkans that larger camps appear, camps inhabited for longer periods of time. They also do a lot of wood working.

In what they refer to as the Bolling complex, 14,000 to 12,000 BP they see the development of the microburrin technique. They find them at Klissoura and Fanchthi Cave. In Anatolia there were geometric microliths. "The two phenomena are related to the perfecting of hunting weapons, notably of spear points made up of several inserts, and -probably- with the introduction of arrowpoints equipped with geometrical microliths. The game changes to include increasing quantities of deer, and birds and faunal material start to appear.

Meanwhile, in the Levant, perhaps because they were further south and the climate was different, the camps become larger and storage facilities appear. Trapezoidal and rectangular forms began to appear. In the next 2,000 years the Natufian appears, and spreads north into Syria.

Now, I don't know if there have been subsequent papers which find fault with these conclusions, but if not, I think these findings are very important for our discussions

Angela
21-05-16, 00:55
Bicicleur:

As for pre-Indo-European dispersal of R1a/R1b branch, the picture is still very misty and complicated.
And the Villabruna R1b1 doesn't make it any simpler.
Jean Manco says they were in Hoti and Belt caves 14 ka.
I also think so, they were in Azerbaijian, NW Iran and SW Turkmenistan, the southern Caspian Sea area.
But I don't see the same itinary from Mal'ta to Hoti and Belt Jean Manco sees.
IMO Q and R were born out of P1 between the Altaï Mts and Lake Bajkal, and I think Q1a1 survived LGM in that area but not R.
I think they fled southwest during LGM to the northern Hindu Kush, the Kupruk area.
Kupruk is northern Afghanistan, I don't think much research will be done over there in the near future, so it's all guesswork.
It seems the Kupruk area was inhabited 30 - 15 ka.
https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh05-009.html
I place there R1a, R1b, R2 and Q1b.
From there R2 moved south and eventually got in the Indus Valley.
R1a and R1b moved west to the southern Caspian Sea area and from there dispersed further.
The main dispersal was northward along the western coast of the Caspian Sea.
7743
the level of the Caspian Sea has fluctuated considerably during and after LGM
the red line shows when it discharged water from the melting ice caps into the Black Sea via the Manych depression ; the spillover point is at +/- 22 meters above todays sea level ;
the Caspian Sea came till the Ural Mts then.
I believe R1a and R1b dispersed along the rivers and lakes of eastern Europe.
David Anthony tells in his famous book in one of his first chapters about the Dnjepr Rapids, 10 ka when 3 tribes with different skhull types and different burial customs were fighting over controll of the area, and finally 1 single tribe was left, one of the 2 dolycephalic tribes.
IMO the 2 dolycephalic tribes were were R1a/R1a, the other tribe, who was there first was I/J.

I too think that the north was abandoned and they fled south. This also makes sense of the R2 in India. Your idea about the dispersal into the steppes makes sense too. It's sort of like Jean Manco's old proposal about R1b and R1a and their winter and summer camps.

I like it.

Ed. No need to be a lone warrior. :) There are increasing numbers of men at my salon, quite a few of them are body builders, and they're of all ages; they come in for manicures, waxing, facials, as well as hair cutting and styling; I'm sure it's the same in Belgium. These are changes of which I approve, conservative as I am. After 35 or so it's all about maintenance, maintenance! Also, as my nonna used to tell me when I would complain about trying to sleep with huge rollers on my head, "You have to suffer to be beautiful!". You don't have to tell significant others the work and pain involved, of course...it should all seem effortless perfection. :)

bicicleur
21-05-16, 06:58
[QUOTE]

When the paper came out I tried to do a quick refresher course for myself, but the scholarship, such as it is, seems rather a muddle to me. According to some researchers, it spans the whole area from Italy (even neighboring Provence according to some authors) to Ukraine, and south into Anatolia and the Levant. Some authors even see it in North Africa.

Then, one book I found says that the categorization of a site as "Epigravettian" shouldn't necessarily be considered definitive as some researchers have just lumped things together by chronology rather than by cultural (including lithic) differences, and so some supposedly Epigravettian sites are just late Magdalenian and some are late Gravettian, and on and on.

Anyway, here are some citations for your week-end. :)

https://books.google.com/books?id=nXuqgInMOXIC&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Epigravettian+lithic+tool+assemblages&source=bl&ots=UnviKwSAGI&sig=zKTePN_rl3W4hsTwVRTTwhU7aDo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAkZnbmunMAhUBeT4KHZtbBhgQ6AEIMzAE#v=on epage&q=Epigravettian%20lithic%20tool%20assemblages&f=false

"Backed tools" at a 16,000 BP "Epigravettian" site in northern Hungary:
https://www.academia.edu/9099654/Backed_tool_technology_at_Esztergom-Gyurgyalag_Epigravettian_site_in_Hungary

I sometimes read this blog now that Matilda has abandoned hers. This is the post on the Epigravettian of Liguria.
http://www.aggsbach.de/2016/01/balzi-rossi-rochers-rouges-caves-and-the-ligurian-epigravettian/

He highlights some of the problems with categorization. For example, " Is the chronological status of shouldered points in Central East Europe really well defined and restricted to post-Pavlovian times? Are Shouldered Points sometimes the by-product of the production of backed implements?"

This one is very interesting:
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf

It mainly discusses the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian to Epigravettian period. The authros seem to conclude that there was a "cultural entitiy" whatever that means, between the Balkans and Anatolia in the Gravettian, if I'm reading it correctly, with some technological markers being earlier in Anatolia than in the Balkans. This is despite the fact that they hunted different game: chamois and horse in the Balkans, and wild goat, sheep and deer in Anatolia. Clearly no mammoth in either place. They maintain that the Kabaran of the Levant was different.

In the Late Glacial, which they define as 16,000 to 14,000 before present some of the influences went from the Balkans to Anatolia. Interestingly, it is in the Balkans that larger camps appear, camps inhabited for longer periods of time. They also do a lot of wood working.

In what they refer to as the Bolling complex, 14,000 to 12,000 BP they see the development of the microburrin technique. They find them at Klissoura and Fanchthi Cave. In Anatolia there were geometric microliths. "The two phenomena are related to the perfecting of hunting weapons, notably of spear points made up of several inserts, and -probably- with the introduction of arrowpoints equipped with geometrical microliths. The game changes to include increasing quantities of deer, and birds and faunal material start to appear.

Meanwhile, in the Levant, perhaps because they were further south and the climate was different, the camps become larger and storage facilities appear. Trapezoidal and rectangular forms began to appear. In the next 2,000 years the Natufian appears, and spreads north into Syria.

Now, I don't know if there have been subsequent papers which find fault with these conclusions, but if not, I think these findings are very important for our discussions

thx Angela.
I like to read Aggsbach too.
He seems to know what he is talking about and he leaves speculation to you.
You won't read big stories but sometimes I search Aggsbach to try and check some details.

The Epigravettian picture is very confuse.
I imagine a lot of very mobile tribes moving in between each other and of whom finally only a few survived.

The Magdalenians were very mobile too.
It is only when forestation started that more sedentary Villabrunans arrived.
I wonder if that R1b1 visitor brought some knowhow about survival in the forests.
These forest tribes used geometrical microliths and bow and arrow, something that allready existed in 18 ka Kebaran.
The archeologists however claim there was no link between Kebaran and Epigravettian.
I percieve Kebaran as G2, maybe some H2 too, but I don't expect any R1b or I there.
Gravettian was IJ, Magdalenian was I and Villabrunans were I2. And TMRCA for I2 and its major subclades is 21 ka. So those I2 stayed 7000 years in some small corner before expanding. And they were probably some Gravettian tribe.

I don't think the archeologists will be able to shine a bright light on Epigravettian. I expect more from DNA.

bicicleur
21-05-16, 09:15
Ed. No need to be a lone warrior. :) There are increasing numbers of men at my salon, quite a few of them are body builders, and they're of all ages; they come in for manicures, waxing, facials, as well as hair cutting and styling; I'm sure it's the same in Belgium. These are changes of which I approve, conservative as I am. After 35 or so it's all about maintenance, maintenance! Also, as my nonna used to tell me when I would complain about trying to sleep with huge rollers on my head, "You have to suffer to be beautiful!". You don't have to tell significant others the work and pain involved, of course...it should all seem effortless perfection. :)

I consider my bicycle as my best friend, hence my name.
An intense ride clears my mind completley.
I notice when I keep up my condition my skin and my hair look much better.
My bicycle prevents my physical and mental decay.
I went to the gym for 1 year before I bought my first bicycle.
I couldn't stand it there, I need the outdoors.

bicicleur
21-05-16, 11:52
I checked Genetiker again for the Ice Age Europe,
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/y-snp-calls-from-ice-age-europe/
Villabruna is indeed I2,
but now it appears Vestonice 16 would be C-V86, which is unlike La Brana (see YFull id LB1 https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/)
then again, when I watch the Y-SNP calls in detail, C-V86 seems doubtfull, as Vetonice 16 is negative 8 out of 12 C-V20 SNPs and positive for only 3 C-V86 SNPs
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-vestonice-16/
C1a2 has been found in Aurignacian Gouyet and in only 2 paleo/mesolithic sites : La Brana and Vestonice, and then again in neolithic sites
C1a2 was not present in the Magdalenian samples.
Also today C1a2 is not well represented.
It looks like C1a2 was present in the Gravettian, but only as a minority.