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View Full Version : T1a1 individuals from Karsdorf descend from Upper Paleolithic Survivors



Alpenjager
30-05-16, 06:23
I compared ancient genomes of Early Neolithic, Mesolithic and Upper Paleolithic groups and I have found that I0795 and I0797, belonging to the Early Neolithic, share a lot of DNA with Upper Paleolithics.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Neanderthal_DNA_Comparison_%28SharedDNA%29_T1a.png

Alpenjager
30-05-16, 06:25
I would like to hear opinions.

Promenade
30-05-16, 09:59
I heard theories that haplogroup T had been in europe since the paleolithic actually. No clue if the theory holds any credibility, but the evidence here reminded me of it.

bicicleur
30-05-16, 13:58
In what part of paleolithic Europe would that have been?
The DNA exchange could also have happened before these Upper Paleolithics entered Europe.

Alpenjager
30-05-16, 19:53
In what part of paleolithic Europe would that have been?
The DNA exchange could also have happened before these Upper Paleolithics entered Europe.

The origin of haplogroup T seems to be in the Eurasian Plate, where all their basal branches have been found with the exception of a unique sample found close to the border. Basal branches of Haplogroup L and T have their highest diversity in Europe+Caucasus with echo in the Zagros and Taurus mountains.

Actually, Haplogroup T have not been found in Anatolian Farmers 8500 BP but only in the ancient Europe and their genomes are found to be closer to Upper Paleolithic HG than to Mesolithic HG or Anatolian Farmers.

If this T1a came from somewhere outside Europe I should think on a Upper Paleolithic survivors back migration but as they have not been found in Anatolia, I would guess that they came from somwhere between Black Sea and Dinaric Alps. Perhaps earlier than first LBK farmers, I will cite to Meyer 2015:
"Building on both the evidence previously available for the LBK and the evidence presented here, we suggest that the repeated occurrence of almost indiscriminate massacres, the possible abduction of selected members, and the patterns of torture, mutilation, and careless disposal all fit into the concept of prehistoric warfare as currently understood within anthropology. Particular LBK groups were singled out for as yet unknown reasons, attacked with brute force, and annihilated by others, probably close neighbors and very likely other LBK groups of the wider region. As has been shown, even within the overall quite homogenous-appearing LBK, recognizable boundaries did exist in many places. These borders most probably were a result of the spread of different groups without close social or biological kinship ties to one another who came in to close contact as a consequence of the LBK colonization pattern. In fact, because the LBK was the first complete Neolithic culture in Central Europe, today all farmers of this time and region are classified as members of the LBK by default, regardless of how these people defined themselves and how they differentiated themselves from their contemporaries."

Sile
30-05-16, 23:32
The origin of haplogroup T seems to be in the Eurasian Plate, where all their basal branches have been found with the exception of a unique sample found close to the border. Basal branches of Haplogroup L and T have their highest diversity in Europe+Caucasus with echo in the Zagros and Taurus mountains.

Actually, Haplogroup T have not been found in Anatolian Farmers 8500 BP but only in the ancient Europe and their genomes are found to be closer to Upper Paleolithic HG than to Mesolithic HG or Anatolian Farmers.

If this T1a came from somewhere outside Europe I should think on a Upper Paleolithic survivors back migration but as they have not been found in Anatolia, I would guess that they came from somwhere between Black Sea and Dinaric Alps. Perhaps earlier than first LBK farmers, I will cite to Meyer 2015:
"Building on both the evidence previously available for the LBK and the evidence presented here, we suggest that the repeated occurrence of almost indiscriminate massacres, the possible abduction of selected members, and the patterns of torture, mutilation, and careless disposal all fit into the concept of prehistoric warfare as currently understood within anthropology. Particular LBK groups were singled out for as yet unknown reasons, attacked with brute force, and annihilated by others, probably close neighbors and very likely other LBK groups of the wider region. As has been shown, even within the overall quite homogenous-appearing LBK, recognizable boundaries did exist in many places. These borders most probably were a result of the spread of different groups without close social or biological kinship ties to one another who came in to close contact as a consequence of the LBK colonization pattern. In fact, because the LBK was the first complete Neolithic culture in Central Europe, today all farmers of this time and region are classified as members of the LBK by default, regardless of how these people defined themselves and how they differentiated themselves from their contemporaries."

thanks

with your theory about T1a1 (T1a1 L162/Page21, L454 ) origins in which Gareth Henson ( T ftdna project person ) notes as the "Southern branch" and the biggest branch of T1a, where do you see the "Northern branch" of T1a2 ( T1a2 L131, CTS2157 ) having its origins ? ..............

T1a3 ( T1a3 FGC1350/Y11151 ) has been noted as being an Arabian peninsula -east African marker with its oldest SNP at no older 500AD ( 1450ybp)

Fire Haired14
31-05-16, 01:54
Upper Paleolithic-Late Neolithic Western European genetics are understood very well because of the 100s of ancient genomes we have.

Karsdorf_LN had the same relation to Paleo Euros as did other Late Neolithic Central Europeans. There's nothing special about him.

mtdna T is quite obvisouly native to West Asia not Western Europe or Europe at all. It first appears at over %25 when people from Turkey migrated into most of Europe 7,000-8,000 years ago. Some but few of them had T1a. T1a1 first appears in Europe in Samara Russia, then migrants from Russia/Ukraine brought T1a1 to the rest of Europe and Central Asia 5,000-4,000 years ago. These migrants from Russia were of very mixed ancestry, some was from Paleo West Europe, some Paleo North Asia, and %50 from Paleo Caucasus. Their T1a1 came from the Caucasus, and these ancestors shared common ancestry from Western Asia with those earlier migrants from Turkey.

It's hard to explain this all on my phone. A god summary is we basically know exactly what modern Europeans are genetically, they're a mixture of many different Plaeo humans, and those Paleo ancestors were a mixture of earlier humans. Its very complex. Distant ancestors of Europeans who lived in western Asia over 10,000 years ago are the source of T1a1 and am mtdna T in Europe and the middle east today.

Sile
31-05-16, 02:14
Upper Paleolithic-Late Neolithic Western European genetics are understood very well because of the 100s of ancient genomes we have.

Karsdorf_LN had the same relation to Paleo Euros as did other Late Neolithic Central Europeans. There's nothing special about him.

mtdna T is quite obvisouly native to West Asia not Western Europe or Europe at all. It first appears at over %25 when people from Turkey migrated into most of Europe 7,000-8,000 years ago. Some but few of them had T1a. T1a1 first appears in Europe in Samara Russia, then migrants from Russia/Ukraine brought T1a1 to the rest of Europe and Central Asia 5,000-4,000 years ago. These migrants from Russia were of very mixed ancestry, some was from Paleo West Europe, some Paleo North Asia, and %50 from Paleo Caucasus. Their T1a1 came from the Caucasus, and these ancestors shared common ancestry from Western Asia with those earlier migrants from Turkey.

It's hard to explain this all on my phone. A god summary is we basically know exactly what modern Europeans are genetically, they're a mixture of many different Plaeo humans, and those Paleo ancestors were a mixture of earlier humans. Its very complex. Distant ancestors of Europeans who lived in western Asia over 10,000 years ago are the source of T1a1 and am mtdna T in Europe and the middle east today.

??

it is them and he is talking about T1a1 ydna

Alpenjager
31-05-16, 02:54
Do you have understood something wrongly. This is not about Late Neolithic Karsdorf nor about mtDNA T1a.

Karsdorf_LN is a totally different and unlinked human group from a different time period and culture. The settlement from Karsdorf 7000BP had not continuity.

mtDNA T1a1 have not known links to YDNA T1a.