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Maciamo
17-07-03, 15:27
Vegetarianism is growing fast in Western countries. It used to be the norm in most of Asia and still is for Hindus and Jainists.
Japan used to be a vegetarian country (except for fish and seafood), but now counts less vegetarians than any other developed countries.

What about you ?

I am not.

Sekabin
17-07-03, 18:20
I was vegetarian, for over 10 years... until I met my wife... then we went to Japan and well, it's downright impossible to be veggie there (fish are not vegetables guys and gals). You can't avoid 'dashi'. So now I'm mostly vegetarian, i.e. i mostly don't eat meat or fish, but occasionally (getting more frequent) I eat fish.

When we live in Japan I guess I'll eat even more fish.
:ramen:

Iron Chef
17-07-03, 23:38
I am, but only until recently (going on a month-and-a-half now). No specific reason for why really, I love a good charred hunk of meat just as much as the next guy/gal. Just trying something new I guess (or until the I grow bored with my newfound diet).
:)

Mandylion
18-07-03, 02:38
Yes, I am, mainly because I can rarely afford meat in Japan, and I've never really learned to cook fish well. I'll eat some amount of meat, 3 oz or so, maybe once every two or three weeks. So I guess I am a defacto psuedo-veggie. But recently, even given the chance to eat large amounts of meat, I find myself not. Large slabs of beef now seem a bit more revolting for both what it will do to my gut and the ethical issues.

mdchachi
18-07-03, 05:31
> we went to Japan and well, it's downright impossible to be veggie there
Well not impossible but I agree it's pretty difficult. I knew one strict vegetarian (Indian guy) in Japan. Needless to say he didn' t eat much Japanese food. When we went out to eat it was usually to an Indian or Italian restaurant (usually they have arabiata pasta which does not have meat).

neko_girl22
18-07-03, 10:00
I'm kinda vegetarian (I eat fish) but not out of choice. It's that diet the traditional asian medicine doctor put me on. not a diet to lose weight, a diet for my health. It's very strict.

I wouldn't mind so much if it actually was working......
:sick:

Sekabin
18-07-03, 15:05
Originally posted by mdchachi
> we went to Japan and well, it's downright impossible to be veggie there
Well not impossible but I agree it's pretty difficult. I knew one strict vegetarian (Indian guy) in Japan. Needless to say he didn' t eat much Japanese food. When we went out to eat it was usually to an Indian or Italian restaurant (usually they have arabiata pasta which does not have meat).

Yeah you're right, it's not impossible. Actually some of the veggie restaurants serve the tastiest food I had in Japan. My cousin is in Osaka and is a strict vegetarian - she's completely miserable and always cooks for herself, buying expensive imported ingredients.

I think vegetarianism is becoming less popular in the UK, so there's no hope for Japan! :D

jeisan
19-07-03, 06:50
meat is good

Marc
19-07-03, 16:31
I love meat.
Could anyone explain to me what are the reasons to become a vegan? I've questioned a friend, who claims to be a vegan, once but he told me I wouldn't understand.
Animal killing and religion aspects sound quite reasonable to me, but what about animal products? Is there a real reason to not consume them?

Maciamo
20-07-03, 02:29
Hi Marc,

Veganism seems more to be a caprice than a reasonable choice, since it is not healthy for human to live with low protein diets or avoid any animal products.

But I understand why vegetarianism is popular. It's not good either to eat only meat (you know like having a beefsteak for breakfast). Balance is the most important. If someone doesn't eat meat then they should eat a lot of dairy products, eggs, beans, etc.

I personnaly stopped eating beef in (or from) developped countries since the mad cow disease. I know there has been no cases in the US or Australia yet, but even if there was I think Americans would try hard to conceal it to preserve their economy. What's more there's been cases in Canada and when I came to Japan everybody was sure it would never happen to Japanese beef ; one month later, the first BSE case was found - and there has been several cases in all the country since then. As cows in Hokkaido and Chiba aren't related, it means there was already BSE before, maybe for several years, but that nobody had tested it or discovered it (even when tested, it's not that easy to trace BSE in a cow. Best proof, a vet commited suicide in Hokkaido for failing to trace it for several years and thus endangering people's life).

As long as I am in Japan, I don't miss beef at all. There is so much fish and seafood that I am content. But in Europe that would be tougher to live without beef at all and just live on pork and chicken. The alternative is kangaroo or emu meat. :blush:

Fruitarian
20-07-03, 07:19
im of only eat Fresh Fruit!!!!!!!! and raww foods so i am not have the impacted feces in my colon!!!!!! no meat,candy,cake,icecream,milk,eggs,no of the cooked food!!!!!!

Keiichi
20-07-03, 10:38
Lots of vegetarians here. ^^ But I'm not one. I was raised with meat also, so I don't suppose decreasing my protein by stopping would be too healthy for me.

Sekabin
21-07-03, 00:48
most people actually eat too much protein in their diet. Unless you're a body builder you don't need as much as that. And balance *is* everything - as a Vegan you can be healthy if you eat the right things in the right amounts. Dairy products aren't necessary, you can get all the same things from other sources.... just many vegans don't!

Tare. Aura Violette
21-07-03, 19:58
I'm vegetarian I suppose
I hate meat, hate the taste of it

I only eat it if I am forced too

but I don't consider pepperoni and THINLY sliced roast beef to be in the "doesn't taste good" group on a rare occasion I will eat that

dark for tears
22-07-03, 23:05
I am and I am not. I don't eat much meat. The occasional bit of chicken is all I have.

Being raised as a Hindu I've never had beef. However then when I decided I wasn't religious I had beef, and wel I just do not like it.

I don't really like fish much, nor pork, or lamb.

So i guess you could call me a veggie, but I eat chicken. Lol, Im just halfway there

elisakim
23-07-03, 22:46
I'm a vegan, 100% vegetarian.
After I realized what I was actually eating it sickened me and I felt barbaric and dirty. So I just stopped, it took awhile to become a complete vegetarian. It is worth it though because I'm skinner then before and have more energy plus I feel really clean and pure inside. Not just my body but my 'soul' too. Having complete control over my body, after having hardly none at all (I was raised to eat meat), makes me feel powerful in a strange way..I mean, now I really realize that this body is just that, a body. Its not me, so I'm not gonna let it control me. I just feel above everything, not in a snobby way but a god-like pure way. It just feels natural to be a vegetarian, like a return to the Earth. It sounds corny b/c I don't know how to explain things well. Oh, I never get sick either. The only time I even get a little pain feeling is when I have a headache from stress. Eh..it's up to you all. Have a nice day everybody!!

Sekabin
24-07-03, 00:19
I have a theory (now no-one get offended by this), that being a vegetarian is, at times, the same as being phobic. For a long time when I was younger (and more strictly veggie) I couldn't even stand the thought of eating meat if someone accidently cooked for me. I would rationalise this feeling in all sorts of ways, but ultimately it was a similar response to a phobia. This was one of the reasons why I decided to become less strict - sort of like elisakim's control over my body, but in a reverse way.

Himura
24-07-03, 00:35
Meat ruleZ!!! :cool:

Sekabin
24-07-03, 12:12
Well, actually I don't think eating meat *is* a good thing for most people. It doesn't seem to be as healthy as many claim, and lets face it - there's just too many people to support a meaty diet for everyone!

;)

Meo
28-07-03, 10:55
I've been a vegetarian for about five months, and am hoping to go vegan some day.

I went veggie for ethical reasons. I don't support the animal cruelty in the meat industry (if you don't know anything about it, you can check out www.meetyourmeat.com and watch the video if you want to). I also realized that eating the flesh of another being was just wrong to me. I felt incredibly bad doing it, so I stopped. I don't think that I could eat meat (or any byproducts, working on cutting out cheese and dairy), even if the treatment in factories was better.

One thing I'd like to say is to clear up the term "vegetarian". Many people now days think that eating poultry or fish only still makes you a vegetarian, when it does not. Those would be pseudo and semi vegetarians. It's nice to have people establish the differences so there's no confusion with vegetarians who eat no meat (face it, fish, chicken, turkeys, etc. all do not grow on trees).

Cheers!

maji
26-08-03, 15:27
one of my flatmates is vegan, and the two others were once vegetarian but now eat meat again.
ive always been a carnivore. ;)

mdchachi
27-08-03, 05:36
Stop it you guys. All this talk is making me feel like having a big, thick, juicy bacon cheeseburger.

Nanahara
27-08-03, 20:36
I'm veggie, well most of the time...sometimes I have to eat chicken or turkey (Christmas and family occasions)

Satori
16-10-03, 15:25
I've been a vegetarian all my life. Why anyone would want pieces of a dead animal in their food is beyond me. ;)

Frank D. White
16-10-03, 17:21
All my life, I've hated vegtables and lived on meat & potatoes.
Most of the time I live on junk food and soda which cost me all my teeth ! Old age and married life are causing me to change my ways though.

Frank

Kat
17-10-03, 00:26
Nope.

I love vegetables and such but I also enjoy meat.

Satori
17-10-03, 00:42
I used to work with an attorney once who said he would eat anything that didn't crawl off his plate! I thought that was one of the funniest things I had ever heard. :D

bossel
17-10-03, 01:29
Since I eat a lot of bread, I'm more of a sausage guy. But once or twice a month I need raw meat: called Mett (some kind of minced meat, but prepared to eat it raw). Together with onions on bread esp. rolls, I love it. My girlfriend calls me an animal for doing so.

I don't think I would ever want to do without meat or meat products.

janimagee
12-06-04, 14:11
phobic... interesting concept... dead animals.. yuck...
I took an anatomy and physiology class in college and we were lucky enough to have 11 cadavers from the med. dept. to study. I decided at that point that meat is meat, whether human or cow or dog, it`s all the same to me and I won`t eat it. In Japan it`s very difficult, fish dashi in everything. If I cook at home I`m fine, If not, I eat rice. No meat no fish.

lineartube
12-06-04, 15:02
Not a vegetarian.

I do like to try a bit of everything, though I have tried vegan dishes, but I have never been on a diet. I hate that word, "diet". I like to feel free about my tastes and choices, so I love Portuguese cuisine, French, the pseudo-Chinese, Spanish, Indian and so forth. I try to diversify what I eat, so I can enthusiastically eat a Mediterranean salad as well a nice charcoaled beef steak.

As for the Ethical consequences, why not think also on the Political consequences? After all, every time you are buying a produce from country or company X, over the local production, you are making a political statement.

RockLee
12-06-04, 15:13
No meat -> I'll die!!!! I love meat so much, couldn't live without it...plus your body needs it, vegetarian food YUK!!!Why don't just graze in the garden and eat some grass??same effect :souka: Fish and meat and veggies...but not simply veggies...that would kill me most definitely :relief:

kirei_na_me
12-06-04, 15:16
I do like to try a bit of everything, though I have tried vegan dishes, but I have never been on a diet. I hate that word, "diet". I like to feel free about my tastes and choices, so I love Portuguese cuisine, French, the pseudo-Chinese, Spanish, Indian and so forth. I try to diversify what I eat, so I can enthusiastically eat a Mediterranean salad as well a nice charcoaled beef steak.

I'm with you there, lineartube. I'm the exact same way.

I have tried and failed to become vegetarian more than a few times, and about 3 years ago, I cut out beef completely and it lasted over a year. It ended when we had a huge party at my house for Father's Day. I had eaten so much chicken the past year and a half, and those hamburgers on that grill just looked so good....I just had to have one. I've been eating beef once per week on average since then.

Buddha Smoker
12-06-04, 15:16
I'm with Rock Lee. People need meat....that is just good stuf. In fact, my wife and I ate at a Japanese steak house tonight. It was delicious. :cool:

Lina Inverse
12-06-04, 23:09
No, I'm not... I'm not too fond of vegetables even :relief:
I really like pork, regardless if normal pork or wild pork, and frequently eat it (wild pork only seldomly, because it's so expensive).
But that's the absolutely only meat I eat - I absolutely loathe any type of seafood and poultry, and I can't stand other meat besides pork either.
Is there a name for people who only and exclusively eat pork?

CC1
12-06-04, 23:10
If we didn't have meat, what would I use my BBQ grill for? :D

Yeah...meat....gotta have meat! :relief:

Lina Inverse
12-06-04, 23:14
If we didn't have meat, what would I use my BBQ grill for? :D

Yeah...meat....gotta have meat! :relief:
Putting meat on the grill is quite popular over here as well, but I can't stand grilled meat :relief:

CC1
12-06-04, 23:29
Putting meat on the grill is quite popular over here as well, but I can't stand grilled meat

I can respect that...But I was raised in the South. Even if there was no way to cook it...I would probably try to eat meat raw! :? nah....j/k :-)

Actually grilling the meat is one of the healthiest was to eat it.

Lina Inverse
12-06-04, 23:36
Actually grilling the meat is one of the healthiest was to eat it.
I'd rather say the opposite is true - the smoke from the charcoal fire inside of the grill contains many substances which are quite unhealthy, and which are then found in the grilled meat :relief:


Even if there was no way to cook it...I would probably try to eat meat raw!
I'd rather eat it raw than grilled, I think... very most times, I eat it fried in a pan. Eating it cooked is quite seldom, but is also ok.

Brooker
12-06-04, 23:58
Give me meat!! I don't eat dairy or greasy foods because they give me a tummy ache. It's ok to be a vegetarian, but I don't like it when they look down on people who eat meat. I personally think there's something very beautiful about the cycle of life and a fine cut of meat or fish. Whenever I look at a huge cut of brilliantly orange king salmon I just want to weep for what a beautiful sight it is. :bawling:

Duo
13-06-04, 01:41
Im not a vegetarian, but lately I have decreased my meat intake just because I feel it's healthier to eat more vegetables and less meat. Also, I think that fish is a better protein source than lets say beef, or watever. However, I wont say no to some juicy pork ribs or a Pita.

No offense to anyone, but I also think that some people became vegetarians just because it might be trendy at sometime.

Buddha Smoker
13-06-04, 01:45
Im not a vegetarian, but lately I have decreased my meat intake just because I feel it's healthier to eat more vegetables and less meat. Also, I think that fish is a better protein source than lets say beef, or watever. However, I wont say no to some juicy pork ribs or a Pita.

No offense to anyone, but I also think that some people became vegetarians just because it might be trendy at sometime.

A balanced meal is the best but to each their own :p

kirei_na_me
13-06-04, 02:00
I can respect that...But I was raised in the South. Even if there was no way to cook it...I would probably try to eat meat raw! :? nah....j/k :-)

Actually grilling the meat is one of the healthiest was to eat it.

This is the second time I've heard you mention being from the South. Which part? I grew up in NC.

Oh, and I love my grill too! I can make some delicious vegetables on the grill. Yummm... :cool:


No offense to anyone, but I also think that some people became vegetarians just because it might be trendy at sometime.

I agree with you there, Duo.

Hachiko
16-06-04, 00:10
Sometimes I am, sometimes I not. I prefer soy milk to regular milk, though. :gulp:

Buddha Smoker
16-06-04, 02:08
This is the second time I've heard you mention being from the South. Which part? I grew up in NC.

Oh, and I love my grill too! I can make some delicious vegetables on the grill. Yummm... :cool:



I agree with you there, Duo.

Lots of people love to jump on the band wagon...especially for diets and eating.

Golgo_13
16-06-04, 03:43
I get annoyed at people who claim they're vegetarians because it's cruel to kill animals, but they have no problems wearing leather shoes, belt, or other leather products.

janimagee
20-06-04, 15:06
doggone hypocrites!!!! no meat no fish no leather!!

cathy
20-06-04, 16:04
Same as here: no meat, no fish, no lether and no furs. No animal skin of any kind. :wave:

Ewok85
20-06-04, 17:14
I'm made to be an omnivore, from my teeth down to my lower digestive system. I'm trying out a high protein diet which means oats for breakfast, tuna, chicken, turkey, cottage cheese, all that kinda thing in between and whatever is going for dinner. I hate people who link diet - eating less.

Out in the wild animals eat other animals, i dont get the big deal. Go protest to a lion about the zebra's right to live.

Duo
20-06-04, 17:57
Ewok has a point. I don't get the vegetarian credo. It's cruel to kill animals in order to eat them ? What about plants then? It may sound silly, but plants are just as living as animals. Just because animals move around and give off sounds and make cute faces doesn't mean that their life is worth more than that of a plant. Each living thing has its own purpose in nature, including humans. Some living things have to eat others in order to survive-that's just how it is. I don't agree, however, on killing animals for their fur, now that we have other fabrics, or for their body parts so that we can make decorative comodeties for ouselves.

michi
20-06-04, 18:03
I need my daily dose of red meat, 'else my life doesn't feel complete.
And anyways, It's hard to be vegeterian living in a Chinese household.

CC1
20-06-04, 19:21
This is the second time I've heard you mention being from the South. Which part? I grew up in NC.

Oh, and I love my grill too! I can make some delicious vegetables on the grill. Yummm... :cool:



I grew up in Alabama. After I graduated high school, I joined the National Guard and went to college at U.S.A. in Mobile. When I turned 20 though I joined the Marines and well the rest is history! :p (still kicking myself for that decision!) :D But I wised up (after 13 years) and went back to the civilian life! :relief:

Golgo_13
21-06-04, 20:47
"If it has 4 legs and it's not a table, eat it!"

Duo,

There are even people who call themsleves "Fruitarians" because they only eat fruit, nuts, and seeds, which does not kill the whole plant.

They probably end up killing themselves due to starvation.


[QUOTE=kirei_na_me]This is the second time I've heard you mention being from the South. Which part? I grew up in NC.

Oh, and I love my grill too! I can make some delicious vegetables on the grill. Yummm... :cool:

[QUOTE]

I grew up in Alabama. After I graduated high school, I joined the National Guard and went to college at U.S.A. in Mobile. When I turned 20 though I joined the Marines and well the rest is history! :p (still kicking myself for that decision!) :D But I wised up (after 13 years) and went back to the civilian life! :relief:

semper fi!

But thank you for the work you did in uniform.

Duo
22-06-04, 03:27
Duo,

There are even people who call themsleves "Fruitarians" because they only eat fruit, nuts, and seeds, which does not kill the whole plant.

They probably end up killing themselves due to starvation.



It's just so ridicilous. Sometimes thinking really is a gift and a curse.

Knives
08-07-04, 05:54
IM 100% NON VEGITARIAN meat is the best food around i love to get a big slab of steak and eat it with my hands i guess it fufills the non-devloped urge lol

Adam_K
08-07-04, 12:30
I've heard of "something-ism" that only eat fallen fruit. they dont even eat fruit from stores. it must have been fallen naturally. Strange :O_o


Im not a vegetarian, but lately I have decreased my meat intake just because I feel it's healthier to eat more vegetables and less meat. Also, I think that fish is a better protein source than lets say beef, or watever. However, I wont say no to some juicy pork ribs or a Pita.

No offense to anyone, but I also think that some people became vegetarians just because it might be trendy at sometime.

Im with you here. Im also not a vegetarian but as U said, i also watch over my intake. More vegetables makes me feel healthier but i still need/want the meat.

As someone said before, the best thing is balance, nothing can beat that :-)

Arch
08-07-04, 15:45
No, some times i ahve wanted to stop eating meat. But i dont have it in me, still when i eat some meat it goes through my mind how it may have been killed.

cross-platform
08-07-04, 17:03
So I just got done watching "Meet Your Meat", and while what it showed is obviously cruel, it hasn't changed my mind about eating meat. I think something needs to be done about the cruelty to the animals, but I will still eat meat, because I think it is healthy in moderation, and meat is part of the life cycle (IMO). I wonder if there a way to find out if certain meats have been killed humanely or not? Isn't Kosher meat supposed to be like that?

Golgo_13
08-07-04, 20:02
IM 100% NON VEGITARIAN meat is the best food around i love to get a big slab of steak and eat it with my hands i guess it fufills the non-devloped urge lol

Steak and A-1 Sauce!

You can't beat that combo.

Kintaro
09-07-04, 01:00
I am a vegetarian sympathizer, however, there are three caveats to my support for people who make this choice:

* No cosmetics! At the worst, perfume from a floral source.
* I don't want them bitching at me when I eat meat, because I can go months without, but I don't, because I eat what I can in front of me. And for those saying it's cruel to kill animals...
* I eat meat as rarely as possible because I cannot go out to the countryside with a katana and cut myself up some dinner. If you kill an animal, eat it, unless it's natural vermine (rats, flies, pigeons/seagulls)

bossel
09-07-04, 01:03
I wonder if there a way to find out if certain meats have been killed humanely or not? Isn't Kosher meat supposed to be like that?
On the contrary, kosher slaughtering is the exact opposite of killing "humanely". The animals' throat is cut open & they bleed to death:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm

King of Tokyo
16-07-04, 00:16
No.. I am not for killing animals... but.. McDonald's is just too tempting :D lol

Winter
16-07-04, 00:22
I'm vegan.

I like talking to vegans. Most of them are vegan because of their 'humanitarian' ways. But ask any vegan who is vegan because of this, if they eat brocolli. If they do, they are ingnorantly hypocritical. Why? Well to refrain from eating things because of 'feelings of pain' is one thing, but brocolli has a central nervous system. What does that mean? It can feel pain.

*rim-shot* I always love bringing that up to other vegans.

King of Tokyo
16-07-04, 00:32
I'm vegan.

I like talking to vegans. Most of them are vegan because of their 'humanitarian' ways. But ask any vegan who is vegan because of this, if they eat brocolli. If they do, they are ingnorantly hypocritical. Why? Well to refrain from eating things because of 'feelings of pain' is one thing, but brocolli has a central nervous system. What does that mean? It can feel pain.

*rim-shot* I always love bringing that up to other vegans.

:? Ahhh.. Brocolli feels me eating it ? Great.. now I'll be afraid to eat brocolli from now on.. lol

Golgo_13
16-07-04, 00:57
I eat meat but I don't like the idea of hunting and shooting animals just to kill it and mount its head on a wall.

I felt so bad for the tiger in FLorida that some idiot was keeping as a pet, and escaped and had to be killed.

Satori
23-08-04, 22:02
I took this poll earlier, but in reviewing my answer, I don't think I ever explained why I was a vegetarian, which was part of the question. My parents were vegetarians due to religious and health reasons. So since I was raised a vegetarian, it came naturally to me, but I remain a vegetarian today not for any religious reasons but strictly for health reasons, as well as my love of animals. I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian, which means I do eat dairy products, such as milk, eggs, and cheese. Since I was raised a vegetarian, I'm not sure I could eat meat, only because now I have some type of psychological block associated with it. For instance, I remember watching "The Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson once where a woman (I think she was from France) brought him a worm pie as a gift. It was considered a delicacy. He looked like he was going to gag but tried to be polite and said he's eat it later. Yeah, right. Well, that's how I feel towards meat since I was raised not eating it. Somehow I can't get the eating animal flesh out of my mind, whereas for most people, that's no big deal! It's completely normal to them. But it's so foreign for me that's it's quite repulsive, actually. Sorry if that offends anyone! Anyway, hopefully, that answers the question better! :-)

60Yen
24-08-04, 10:51
I like meat, but I can understand veggies

Japanimaniac
14-10-04, 20:17
I've actually considered becoming a vegetarian a few times, simply because it's healthy. But it's hard when you've had meat in your diet your whole life. I don't think I'll ever be able to push myself hard enough to do it.

m477
15-10-04, 03:30
To each his own I suppose, but I'm tired of hearing the vegetarian == healthy myth. Sure, a salad is better than eating greasy bacon cheeseburgers every day, but I think the healthiest way of all is a balanced diet with moderate amounts of meat and fish and lots of fruit and vegetables.

Protein deficiency can lead to serious illnesses. Being a healthy vegetarian is more than simply taking the meat out of your favorite dishes; without the meat you generally need to add and combine several ingredients in order to get a complete protein. Also, many vegetarians end up with heart disease because they resort to eating lots of high-cholesterol foods like eggs and cheese for their protein.

Miss_apollo7
19-10-04, 19:47
I am no vegetarian, as I love meat too much to give it up. :D
I simply love chicken and turkey to give it up....:-)
I eat a lot of vegetables, (for some, too much veggie).
I can live without meat for a long time, as I eat vegetables and fruit a lot, but would not give up meat....

No-name
19-12-04, 08:54
I love to eat. Food is my hobby. But my high fat, high sugar American diet is taking its toll. I think my days of Burger, fries and a coke are ending.

I try to eat less meat. Especially red meat-- I think chicken and fish are fine.
My doctor would like me to become a vegetarian because I have a weak liver. I also weigh too much. I can go weeks without meat, but I miss it (no moral qualms here). I also miss Pepsi and chocolate. I avoid the stuff, but it keeps finding me. I also eat very little dairy- somewhere along the way I became lactose intolerant. Right now, I'm eating everything I can get my hands on.

Soy and rice. Fruit and salad. Nuts, nuts, nut...sigh...

By the way, it occurs to me that the best way to save any species on the planet is to eat it or make it a pet. Cows, chickens, pigs, and house pets will never be extinct.

Martyr
19-12-04, 09:56
Not a chance in hell. I couldn't live without tonkatsu and burgers.

Flashjeff
19-12-04, 15:00
I enjoy vegetables, especially corn (YUM!) and I have a healthy serving every day. But I gotta have my dead animal too!
:D

Martialartsnovice
23-12-04, 04:50
:-) Well know heres something. I read this on a t-shirt a few times. here it is

"VEGETARIAN:Ancient tribal slang for village idiot who cant ride, fish or hunt"

LOL.

Oh heres another one. Everyone knows about PETA right. well heres what it stands for:
"People Enjoying Tasty Animals" (theres room for all of gods creatures, next to my mashed potatoes and gravy.

@ Flash Jeff:

Beef its whats for dinner tonight" Remember this from the Beef TV commercials on the cable and satillite networks.

babar-san
23-12-04, 05:34
welp, i not a vegetarian, butidont eat a lot of red meat. maybe 2-4 times a month. i used to eat more, but lately, i have been improving my diet. evryones metabolism is diff, so id say that being vegan from birth would cause less issues, but changing altogether can cause problems, as was the case with a vegan friend of mine, who after being vegan for 4 years, developed blood type problems due to a lack of certain proteins, iron, and some other nutritional elements that upon the advise of his doctor,
had to start eating meat again. he is much better now with no blood problems. but i also have friends that have been vegan all there lives and have no problems. if i had to eat one food for the rest of my life it would be sushi. such a healthy food. fish for protein, fats. rice for carbs, kelp for all kinds of minerals and nutrients including sodium, and fruits and vegetables for natural sugars, and vitamins. yummmm......right now i eat a lot of chicken and fish, ocasionally pork, but not often. there is no moral implications as far as im concerned. hunting animals is a constant throughout 80% of all species on earth. some native americans ate a lot of red meat, yet were still in general, very healthy ppl. but they also got a lot of exercise, and ate a plethora of fruits, vegetables, roots, spices, etc, to create a balanced diet. so i dont "feel" bad for the animals we eat, it is a natural process that exists everywhere in the circle of life and survival. i dont eat processed foods however, when i can help it. i cook 90% of my own food, because i feel safer and the food is much better.
here is an example of the hardees thickburger > i found these were amusing statistics:)

the hardees 2/3 lb bacon cheese thickburger contains -
total calories - 1,340
fat calories - 870
% of calories from fat - 65
total fat - 96 grams
saturated fat - 40 grams
cholesterol - 205 mg
sodium - 2,110 mg
protein - 56 grams
fiber - 5 grams
carbs - 60

whoa, no wonder america has a weight problem. to work off the calories in this burger, you would have to take a brisk 22 mile walk. and some ppl pound down those things 2-3 a day! disgusting america has become a country of indulgence and convenience....

Flashjeff
23-12-04, 11:59
:-) Oh heres another one. Everyone knows about PETA right. well heres what it stands for:
"People Enjoying Tasty Animals" (theres room for all of gods creatures, next to my mashed potatoes and gravy.

@ Flash Jeff:

Beef its whats for dinner tonight" Remember this from the Beef TV commercials on the cable and satillite networks.

HAHAHAHA! Martial, that PETA joke was a keeper! Oh, yeah, I remember those beef commericals, just like I recall those spots for pork, a.k.a., "the other white meat".
:cool:

Martialartsnovice
27-12-04, 19:42
Hey to all the Vegans. I dont mind veges. But I dont see how vegeans eat all of these strange dishes such as Tofu Burgers, and Tofu Hotdogs. Whats next tofu Spam, or tofu steaks.

TwistedMac
27-12-04, 21:20
Someone once said "my ancestors worked their arses off getting to the top of the food chain, and I'll be damned if I let all that work go to waste!".

I agree with that.


Hey to all the Vegans. I dont mind veges. But I dont see how vegeans eat all of these strange dishes such as Tofu Burgers, and Tofu Hotdogs. Whats next tofu Spam, or tofu steaks.

http://www.i-will.ne.jp/netsuper/prdimg/tofu_steak.jpg

nice juicy tofu steak, anyone?

Japanimaniac
28-12-04, 00:04
Tofu burgers aren't all that bad, actually ^.^

Flashjeff
29-12-04, 11:12
I tried eating tofu once. Styrofoam had more taste! UGH! As for Spam, someone should outlaw that stuff! Double UGH!!!!

:okashii:

misa.j
29-12-04, 23:19
I eat what I like to eat and try to keep a balanced diet. Vegetables are delicious either raw or cooked, but I usually have them cooked since I can have more of them that way.
Poultry and seafood are the ones I eat most often for protein, rarely game meat such as venison or grouse if I am lucky.

Japanese people are known to have a healthy diet which is one of the factors of their long life span, funny thing is though, they are not afraid of fat so much; I used to eat a lot of pork with a white juicy fat around it.

Bob in Iowa
29-12-04, 23:19
I love fresh tofu, especially the firm type with a kindof coarse texture. I wouldn't want to rely solely upon tofu for my protein, however. Give me a couple of pork chops, some grilled onions, a nice green salad, and a side order of tofu.

Miss_apollo7
02-01-05, 18:49
I love fresh tofu, especially the firm type with a kindof coarse texture. I wouldn't want to rely solely upon tofu for my protein, however. Give me a couple of pork chops, some grilled onions, a nice green salad, and a side order of tofu.

I love tofu too....however, I don't like some of the vegetarian dishes which have tofu instead of meat.
I am no vegetarian, so I prefer meat in my lasagne..... :-) I once ate a "veggie lasagna" with tofu and kidney beans instead of meat, and it tasted funny in my opinion.... :blush:

Duo
02-01-05, 20:12
yeah i'm with u there, can't give up meat. It makes me think though, being a vegetarian, i think the moral reason for it is completely fallable and contradictory. I don't want to kill another being so i just eat plants. But plants are alive just like animals, i don't know to me it doesn't make any sense, but i respect the decision however, i won't buy into that kind of moral justification.

Bob in Iowa
02-01-05, 20:30
I love tofu too....however, I don't like some of the vegetarian dishes which have tofu instead of meat.
I am no vegetarian, so I prefer meat in my lasagne..... :-) I once ate a "veggie lasagna" with tofu and kidney beans instead of meat, and it tasted funny in my opinion.... :blush:


I agree, Miss A. Tofu is not an acceptable substitute for meat, in my opinion. Also, I see no need to disguise tofu as anything other than what it is, because I love the taste of tofu by itself, or, better yet, with some bonito flakes, soy sauce, and chopped green onions.

Miss_apollo7
02-01-05, 21:45
I agree, Miss A. Tofu is not an acceptable substitute for meat, in my opinion. Also, I see no need to disguise tofu as anything other than what it is, because I love the taste of tofu by itself, or, better yet, with some bonito flakes, soy sauce, and chopped green onions.

Yes, I love tofu with soy sauce and bonito too! And in miso soup!

Martialartsnovice
03-01-05, 06:52
Okay, you guys have convinced me to try it. One question: How do these tofu burgers, taste with say, hot sauce. I was told, there gross, even plain.

Is this true

Shooter452
23-01-05, 16:37
I am omivorous. I eat almost anything.

I do obey the tribal custom of not eating my neighbor. Lucky for us both, given the price of tenderloin today.

When on Okinawa, I was privilaged to enjoy the luxury of a Kobe beef supper. Wow! And just like at Benihana's on Peachtree Road in Atlanta, they cut, prepare, cook, and serve right in front of you! And the knife show ain't so bad either.

I still do not favor kelp, so sushi is out. Shushimi is still in...love that wasabi horseradish!

lexico
23-01-05, 20:07
I thought I posted sth. but I don't see one.
Okay, I used to love meat when I was growing up.
I ate vigorously for fear that a lack of it might make me sick.
But I've changed.
Vegetarianism was a new idea for me.
I looked upon a veggie with simple awe, without thinking either good or bad.
When I started cooking, I began to discover how good vegetables could taste. The nearly infinite variety of tastes possible with vegetables cannot be matched by meat dishes.
If you really think about it, meat never tastes good on its own.
In addition to salt, it needs pepper to neutralize the stench, and other vegetables to add to the taste.
Even fresh meat makes me squirm.
It just can't be clean; the beef industry is lying to you when they stamp a Grad-A on it.
I sometimes miss meat, but never to a level of craving.
I can go forever w/o meat, but not two consecutive meals w/o vegetables.
I'm still omnivorous; but I love vegetables more by far.
Rice is a vegetable, right? It ain't meat, at least.

Edit: I DO enjoy a big, fat, juicy DoubleWhopper occasionally! :cool:

Japanimaniac
23-01-05, 22:54
And just like at Benihana's on Peachtree Road in Atlanta, they cut, prepare, cook, and serve right in front of you! And the knife show ain't so bad either.

Not meaning to go waaaay off subject here, but did anyone happen to see Blue Collar TV a couple nights ago when they went to Benihana's? Hilarious...:p

Mycernius
20-02-05, 20:17
I am a meat eater. I believe in a balanced diet and meat and veggies make a balanced diet. I enjoy good food and there is not a lot I will not try. Good meat cooked well is great, and the same can be said of veggie. What I don't understand is people who say they are vegetariian and eat fish? As far as I can remember form biology is that fish are a living animal.
Just a side note, I have several vegetarian friends and they all have one complaint about a lot of restrant food. Why must they always have cheese on them?

Tsuyoiko
07-07-05, 18:11
I have been a vegetarian since I was 14, and on and off since I was 9 before that. I could no more eat meat than human flesh. It disgusts me. And I don't like tofu. I get my protein from beans, nuts, seeds and some dairy. I think I am healthier than most people - it is over a year-and-a-half since I even had a cold.

I agree with your friends Mycernius - they put cheese in everything, and I don't like cheese much! Hay-on-Wye is the best place in the UK for veggie food. You are spoilt for choice, even if you are vegan.

Duo
07-07-05, 19:22
I have been a vegetarian since I was 14, and on and off since I was 9 before that. I could no more eat meat than human flesh. It disgusts me. And I don't like tofu. I get my protein from beans, nuts, seeds and some dairy. I think I am healthier than most people - it is over a year-and-a-half since I even had a cold.

I agree with your friends Mycernius - they put cheese in everything, and I don't like cheese much! Hay-on-Wye is the best place in the UK for veggie food. You are spoilt for choice, even if you are vegan.

I don't think being vegetarian makes one in a better condition health wise. Fact is that humans need both meat and plants. People can try to find alternatives to replace their protein intake but nothing will work as good as meat does. For example try to raise a newborn on a meat less diet and it may have dire consequences. The body in ardous condition needs a quik and fast and resourceful source of protein-- meat. It's true that too much meat can harm us, but a balanced diet is what is healthier for all of us. For example, vegetarians can't eat fish, which have good nutrients for our brain :-)

Thor
07-07-05, 22:01
No, I am not a vegetarian. I need my share of fish, and red meat to survive. I'd hate to think what my diet would consist of if I was a vegetarian..

Tsuyoiko
08-07-05, 13:35
I don't think being vegetarian makes one in a better condition health wise. Fact is that humans need both meat and plants. People can try to find alternatives to replace their protein intake but nothing will work as good as meat does. For example try to raise a newborn on a meat less diet and it may have dire consequences. The body in ardous condition needs a quik and fast and resourceful source of protein-- meat. It's true that too much meat can harm us, but a balanced diet is what is healthier for all of us. For example, vegetarians can't eat fish, which have good nutrients for our brain :-)

I have been a vegetarian over half my life and I am perfectly healthy. I have never eaten fish, even when I did eat meat, and I can assure you my brain has not suffered. I actually feel quite insulted by the implication - smiley face aside. :(

What examples can you give of the 'facts' you state, such as the 'dire consequences' of raising a newborn as a vegetarian? Without corroborating evidence it is hard to accept your statements. There have been numerous studies showing the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, for example:
Here (http://www.annecollins.com/vegetarian-diet-health-benefits.htm)
Here (http://www.urban75.com/Mag/veggie.html)
Here (http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_foods.html)

Please look at these links. I will concede that a vegetarian has to carefully plan their diet to ensure they take in all the necessary nutrients, but then a meat-eater has to take care to avoid eating too much fat and cholesterol.

Duo
08-07-05, 13:59
Exactly! I'm not advocating eating meat solely, rather a well balanced diet. Some vegetarians will stay away from dairy products and that is totally problematic for the body, sure you can try soy or what not but nothing beats milk, especially in growing kids. I'm glad that you are well off, i'm not suggesting you are stupid or not, I'm simply saying that is a known fact that fish have very good nutrients for our brains that help to increase our capacity if we begin to eat them at an earlier age. The problem with being a vegetarian, biologically speaking, is that you have to combine a range of things in order to create the same amount of protein intake as you would have if you just ate a steak. For example you may have to mix beans and rice and what not to have the same amount of protein that is found in just one regualar meat based serving. The links you provided say nothing of the side effects. They just provide common knowledge of the benefits of eating veggies. We all know that vegtables are safe and good and for us and won't damage us to an extent that meat does if we over eat them. But, that doesn't mean that veggies alone are enough to complement our necessity of nutrient intake. Look at the mediterranean diet; it's one of the healthiest in the world and is based on many meat and fish dishes as well as a copius usage of vegtables. Vegtables are good source of vitamins and what not on a daily basis when the body is in regular conditions, but when we are sick, nothing beats meat to help us get better. Ever wondered why chiken soup is so popular ; ? I never hear anyone saying oh u're sickk, lemme come over and make you some Brussels sprout soup, that will get you back on your feet in no time. Again, I have nothing against vegetarians, I'm just saying that eating only vegtables is not as as good as having a balanced diet of vegtables and meat. If our ancestors had eaten solely veggies when migrating from Africa to the Middle East and Australia and then later to europe, siberia and north america, we would have been dead long ago. Plants just don't have that ability to provide that much protein in tha small of an amount, and today it may be well and good to be a vegetarian due to our advances in technology and because we don't use our bodies as much as before, but back then meat was a necessity for us to be alive. Homo Robustus , a close relative of homo erectus was only able to stay alive, well until we won the contest, due to termites because they provided a good source of protein. I'm not trying to offend or judge your lifestyle, simply that being a strict vegetarian has many disadvantages and well despite how disgusting you may think it is, you need meat

Jack
08-07-05, 14:07
does anyone eat nothing but meat?

Tsuyoiko
08-07-05, 15:05
Duo -

Again you have written a long list of statements with no evidence to back up your claims. I have provided information to support my arguments, and you ask why I have not provided any to support yours. OK, here is some information on the health risks of vegetarianism:
Here (http://www.finetuning.com/articles/p3-309-becoming-a-vegetarian.html)
Here (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html)
Here (http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-diets-health-risks.htm)
I found it harder to find evidence of the risks than I did for the benefits, I wonder if that's significant?

Chicken soup may be eaten when we have a cold, but it is also the most common cause of food poisoning! I don't have a link for that, I learnt it from a food hygiene course. I make a very effective and tasty garlic and chilli soup when I have a cold, but I don't have many colds so I haven't made it for quite a while.

I agree that our prehistoric ancestors probably could not have survived without meat. That does not mean that it is necessary for modern humans to eat meat. Many archaeologists believe that some of our ancestors engaged in human sacrfice!For example (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/human_sacrifice_01.shtml)

I am also concerned with the contradictions in your argument. At one point you say "today it may be well and good to be a vegetarian", then later you say "you need meat". Which do you believe? Or aren't you sure?

You state that "being a strict vegetarian has many disadvantages". I am not a strict vegetarian (vegan). I have tried it, but found it too difficult. I admire anyone who can succeed at it. I am too lazy to prepare everything myself, and I found the main disadvantage to be that it was too hard to find prepared vegan foods.

I apologise if I have misled you by an ambiguity in my initial post. When I said that eating meat 'disgusts me', I was referring only to myself. If others want to eat meat that is their choice - my husband is a meat-eater. I just couldn't eat it myself. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by not making that clearer.

BTW, the health benefits are not my reason for being a vegetarian, just a bonus. Are there any animals you won't eat? Most meat-eaters I know couldn't eat cat or dog. I feel the same way about all animals.

Duo
08-07-05, 15:12
Again you have written a long list of statements with no evidence to back up your claims. I have provided information to support my arguments, and you ask why I have not provided any to support yours. OK, here is some information on the health risks of vegetarianism:
Here (http://www.finetuning.com/articles/p3-309-becoming-a-vegetarian.html)
Here (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/vegetarian.html)
Here (http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-diets-health-risks.htm)
I found it harder to find evidence of the risks than I did for the benefits, I wonder if that's significant?

Chicken soup may be eaten when we have a cold, but it is also the most common cause of food poisoning! I don't have a link for that, I learnt it from a food hygiene course. I make a very effective and tasty garlic and chilli soup when I have a cold, but I don't have many colds so I haven't made it for quite a while.

I agree that our prehistoric ancestors probably could not have survived without meat. That does not mean that it is necessary for modern humans to eat meat. Many archaeologists believe that some of our ancestors engaged in human sacrfice!For example (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/human_sacrifice_01.shtml)

I am also concerned with the contradictions in your argument. At one point you say "today it may be well and good to be a vegetarian", then later you say "you need meat". Which do you believe? Or aren't you sure?

You state that "being a strict vegetarian has many disadvantages". I am not a strict vegetarian (vegan). I have tried it, but found it too difficult. I admire anyone who can succeed at it. I am too lazy to prepare everything myself, and I found the main disadvantage to be that it was too hard to find prepared vegan foods.

I apologise if I have misled you by an ambiguity in my initial post. When I said that eating meat 'disgusts me', I was referring only to myself. If others want to eat meat that is their choice - my husband is a meat-eater. I just couldn't eat it myself. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by not making that clearer.

BTW, the health benefits are not my reason for being a vegetarian, just a bonus. Are there any animals you won't eat? Most meat-eaters I know couldn't eat cat or dog. I feel the same way about all animals.

Well i said that today it is possible to be a vegetarian due to the advances in our daily life, but still one needs meat. Ummmm, i guess i wouldn't eat dogs and cats, unless if I have to survive. I might try them thought perhaps. I even tried chiken feet at a chinese restaurant once so a dog doesn't seem so bad compared to that :p, but umm i have also tried rabbits, and that bunny in your avatar sure looks tasty :blush:
hehehehee, seriouusly though i know what you mean, but I just am trying to point out that although being a vegetarian has many good aspects, having a well balanced diet that includes meat is better and has many benefits, I mean ask any doctor or health expert.... now maybe for some overweight people or with colesterol problems staying away from meat is probaply best; i'm talking about people in normal health conditions.

kirei_na_me
08-07-05, 15:20
I have my limits, as far as meat is concerned.

I wouldn't eat dog or cat. I will not eat lamb or veal. I don't eat organs of animals. Well, to make it easier, I only eat beef, chicken, and seafood.

When I stopped eating beef for a year, I felt much better healthwise. I'm seriously considering cutting it out again. I don't think I'm ready to give up my chicken or seafood just yet, though...

Tsuyoiko
08-07-05, 15:23
Duo -

Please back up your arguments! You are simply restating your point with nothing to back it up!!! Most of the evidence I have found from doctors and health experts supports my argument. Find me something that supports yours!

Duo
08-07-05, 15:33
Are you serious ?
I thought that what i'm saying over and over is just simple common knowledge based on logic. Anayways, all the doctors I have seen have told me the same thing, balanced diet and what not, all the tv shows and articles and health class books have said the same thing over and over... I doubt you will find an objective source that will tell you be a vegetarian...unless they are vegeatarians themselves. You can't seriuosly refute the fact that a diet encompassing meat and vegtable is not more beneficial than a vegetarian diet. You know i could go look around in sites tha will back up my point, but i think it's just a waste of time..... to mee basic logic and simple common knoweldge suffices, but if your are not conviced I won't go out of my way to do so. Anyways please don't feel on the defensive, I am not attacking your lifestyle, I have dated girls who were vegetarians and had no problems, in fact if she's cute enough she can eat bird seeds for all I care but I'm just telling you that it is in my strongest conviction that meat is necessary for our bodies, because think about it, if it wasn't why did nature give us the ability and necessity for it? Why didn't it just make us into 2 leg walkin cows ?

Iron Chef
08-07-05, 16:46
Re: being a vegetarian

Well... I can only speak from personal experience so don't expect me to back up any of my claims with documented evidence, heh. When I was at my heaviest, I weighed approximately 229lbs. Now, for someone who is only 5'8" tall... that's a lot of meat to be carrying around. During my super-sized years, I gave absolutely no thought to what my daily intake was (how much, how often, etc.). If I felt even the slightest pang of hunger... I fed myself. At my worst, I was known for being able to eat an entire large pizza+a side of hotwings+a 2L of Coke BY MYSELF IN ONE SITTING.

Looking back, the worst offender for me was without a doubt... meat. I would eat large quantities of bacon, sausages, hamburger, steak, etc. almost every day coupled with little else except for sweets (a LOT) and the occasional salad (to sop up the gravy from my meatloaf, heh). Needless to say, I was the poster boy for obese middle-America up until recently.

Fast forward to today. I currently weigh in at exactly 145.0lbs and have tripled my muscle mass while simultaneously shedding pounds. I went from a size 40 waist to a slim 29. My BMI is approximately 11.2%. I've become a workout fanatic and never skip a day (even while on vacation or in a hotel). My daily regimen consists of between 4-500 situps AND pushups plus 20-30 minutes of weight training coupled with either 2-3 hours of walking or swimming every other day. Nowadays, I can bench 250, crank out 75 situps in a minute-30 flat or rip 250 straight (no-break), and... beat just about anyone in my weight-class at armwrestling, heh. 8-p

The catalyst for all this? I decided to become a vegetarian and this has helped me to get my body back into better shape now at the age of 33 than when I was a rookie on the police force. I eat a large salad every day, sometimes twice. I eats lots of fresh fruit (apples, bananas, oranges, grapefruits, watermelon, etc.). I eat 500g of low-fat yogurt mixed with oat bran fiber or low-fat granola. I eat no more than 200grams of white rice every day, usually with either natto, steamed vegetables, broiled fish, etc. I also consume on average at least 200grams of tofu every day.

I do NOT consider myself a strict vegetarian per se because I do occasionally eat either lean ham (no more than 80g) or boneless skinless chicken once every 10-12 days. My red meat consumption is about once per every six weeks (i'm not kidding) but my daily protein intake is quite high. I eat at least 2 hard-boiled eggs every day plus the occasional side of lentils, raw veggies, or konyaku (popular Japanese diet-food). When I need a snack-fix, I eat lots of dried fruits for both the fiber and protein (especially figs).

The moral of the story I guess is that if I hadn't gone veggie coupled with regular exercise, I wouldn't have been able to get back into shape. Take it from someone who absolutely LOVES meat... eat a salad every day, you can't go wrong! 8-) As others have said, a well-balanced diet is key to a longer, healthier life. Thanks for taking the time to read this and sorry for the long expose'. *Feels like he's giving one of those "testimonials" for a weight loss infomercial...*

Thor
08-07-05, 16:54
I envy you Iron Chef.

bossel
08-07-05, 20:56
I do NOT consider myself a strict vegetarian per se
I wouldn't consider you a vegetarian at all. But, besides that, even if you were vegetarian, I don't think your improved health is due to your diet alone. You are much more aware of your body & its needs now (I should work on that, too).

IMO, this is also why in general vegetarians are in a healthier state than non-veggies. They simply have a more conscious approach to what their body needs (they have to). You can have a just as healthy diet without being vegetarian, simply by being more cautious about what & how much you eat.



does anyone eat nothing but meat?
Eskimos did, but I don't know if some tribes still do. They got their necessary vitamins from eating raw meat, IIRC.



Many archaeologists believe that some of our ancestors engaged in human sacrfice!
& how is this related to the question of vegetarianism?

lonesoullost3
08-07-05, 21:34
I'm not a vegetarian, however I do not eat that much meat. It's mostly because I'm somewhat picky on how dry my meat is. I'm not a big turkey fan because of this (oh well for Thanksgiving :p). If I see meat I like (and it's not too fattening :p) I'll eat a good meals worth to make sure I get a solid dose of meat-protein ^_^.

Kara_Nari
09-07-05, 06:17
I was a vegetarian for 8 years, previous to that I was incredibly fussy... actually nothing much has changed in that department.
I didnt choose not to eat meat because of the killing of animals, I just didnt like the texture, and I dont like eating meat that reminds me of the animal... weak stomach.
So in saying this, I will eat beef sometimes, but not a steak..
I dont like my meat to have bones in it, chicken with bones, cant bring myself to eat it, unless im super hungry, or dont want to be rude.
Pork, I love pork... somehow I feel slightly overloaded from it recently. Must be time for a break.
Never did like Seafood or Shellfish, however if need be I will eat Tuna, small portions of Salmon, Snapper and Terakihi. I will probably only eat these fish 3-4 times a year.
Im yet to try dog, and im not sure about eating cat. Who knows maybe I have already?
Im looking forward to eating cooked snake though, and I have to go back to Cambodia to eat a spider!

Ma Cherie
10-07-05, 16:43
Goodness, I don't why I never posted in this thread. :p Well I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat pork alot, unless it's bacan or ham. I did try to be a vegetarian at one point but I couldn't do it. I put meat in my salad's for crying out loud. :p I don't eat hotdogs because of what they are made from. In all honesty, I don't see how people can be vegan, I can understand if you're raised in a culture that teaches you to be vegan. But not in cultures where meat is the norm. There's nothing wrong with being vegan, but it seems so difficult when almost half of our nutrients come from meat.

Iron Chef
10-07-05, 20:24
Vegan is way too severe imho... I'm all about healthy living and a well-balanced diet but sheesh... depriving oneself of some of the things vegans abstain from just doesn't make sense to me. I mean... nowadays, eating food to me is more of a daily function necessary for my survival as opposed to a luxury I look forward too like back when I was a biggun. Still... I do occasionally splurge on the odd item or two. 8-)

Tsuyoiko
11-07-05, 14:40
& how is this related to the question of vegetarianism?

Duo was using the argument that we must need meat today because our prehistoric ancestors needed meat. I was simply giving an example of something else our prehistoric ancestors are believed to have done that we don't do today.

Duo - let's just agree to disagree. I have my belief, which I have come to through weighing up evidence pro and con, you have your opinion based on your gut feeling. Let's just leave it at that.

Silverbackman
07-08-05, 10:46
I a definatley a not a vegetarion. The argument against eating meat are so bad. There is nothing wrong with eating meat, it has been in are evolution for ages. Homo Erectus the first "ape-man" to have a distinct human appearance started eating meat a lot, eating meat is nothing new to mankind. Plus humans are classified as omnivores, eater of plant and animal matter. Believe it or not chimpanzees who are our closest ancestors eat meat on a regular basis in the dry season. If chimps can eat meat why can't we? Especially considering we are the biggest meat-eaters of the all the primates.

As long as we don't hunt an animal to extinction for meat there is nothing wrong with it. Then again with the domestic animals being used as meat we really don't need to worry about hunting so meat is perfectly ok.

strongvoicesforward
06-04-06, 16:09
Vegetarianism is growing fast in Western countries. It used to be the norm in most of Asia and still is for Hindus and Jainists.
Japan used to be a vegetarian country (except for fish and seafood), but now counts less vegetarians than any other developed countries.
What about you ?


Yes, I am.

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Glad to see this thread already created for the topic. I will be feeding it because I sense it still has some life. A lot to be said on the topic.

strongvoicesforward
06-04-06, 17:33
The American Dietetic Association is the largest association of professional dieteticians in the world. For those of you who have been considering switching to a vegetarian diet and who may be worried if it is healthy or not, or have heard outdated rumors about the negative health consequences of vegetarianism, please take a moment to visit this thread from time to time to see what they have said and other orgs of well repute have said on the issue.

I will post short points on the subject so that reading them will be quick and informative.

Let`s start with a statement by the ADA:

Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.

Cancer is ugly. Especially when it isn`t caught in the early stages and has spread.

Clawn
06-04-06, 18:44
I am not a vegetarian. Not by a long shot. I am a vigorous consumer of most meat products. I'd have to say that 85% of my dinners have meat as a main course. The other 15% would be some sort of pasta or a baked potatoe.

strongvoicesforward
06-04-06, 19:19
I am not a vegetarian. Not by a long shot. I am a vigorous consumer of most meat products. I'd have to say that 85% of my dinners have meat as a main course. The other 15% would be some sort of pasta or a baked potatoe.

Would you care about your health (or care about those who care about your well being and depend on you) enough to give any weight to advice/studies and research outlined by large orgs consisting of professionals in the area of health and desieses about dietary changes that could benefit you by reducing risk of disease and sickness?

Clawn
06-04-06, 19:52
Would you care about your health (or care about those who care about your well being and depend on you) enough to give any weight to advice/studies and research outlined by large orgs consisting of professionals in the area of health and desieses about dietary changes that could benefit you by reducing risk of disease and sickness?

Yes, I would. I make sure I'm healthy enough.:wave:

btw - sorry about my misreading of your question strongvoicesforward:gomen:

strongvoicesforward
06-04-06, 20:19
Thank you for the offer, but I'll have to pass for now. I make sure I'm healthy enough.

Hi Clawn,

I wasn`t offering you anything. I had asked you a "yes" or "no" question based on professionals' research, orgs, your health, and those who are close to you and care about your health.

Please read the question again and see that I am asking you a simple "yes" or "no" question.

Also, it is not always about making sure we "are" healthy now, but that we will remain to be so optimally for years to come in the future, which may depend on choices now. So, whether you are healthy now because of your choices until now, may not be conducive to giving you the best chances for staying healthy with quality life in the future.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 16:17
Here is a common refrain from flesh eaters when asked if they would consider a vegetarian diet:


I need protein. Also, we need meat to get a lot of our nutrients.

However, such concerns are unfounded. Here is what the American Dietetics Association cites on nutrients and the vegetarian diet:


The United States Dietary Guidelines (23) state, "Vegetarian diets can be consistent with the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, and meet Recommended Dietary Allowances for nutrients."

Thunderthief
07-04-06, 16:38
I am a carnitarian, all I eat is meat, candy and dairy products. The only time I usually eat something green is when its covered in cholocate and has caramel inside. I do however take a variety of vitimans and fish oil (reduces cholestrol) to make up for my carnivorious life style.

Im such a rabbid meat eater, when I order a big mac, or a whopper or any other sandwitch I usually throw the veggies off because I don't like them, and am often weary of eating the bun, and alot of the time will not eat it.

I do like pumpkin pie though... one of the few exceptions.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 16:54
Would you care about your health (or care about those who care about your well being and depend on you) enough to give any weight to advice/studies and research outlined by large orgs consisting of professionals in the area of health and desieses about dietary changes that could benefit you by reducing risk of disease and sickness?

C'mon SVF, we all know that you didn't turn into a vegan because you decided it was the healthy way to go and you wanted that, it was because you disagreed with eating animals. The fact of the matter is that modern human beings are evolved omnivores, not herbivores, and we are still designed to eat a variety of foods.
Yes- you can find a fullfilling diet if you are a vegetarian, but you will find one with more difficulty considering you have a much smaller range of foods to meet your RDA nutritional needs. Doctors still advise pregnant mothers to eat meat, dairy products and fish to have a healthy issue-free pregnancy and child. One of my best friends in Australia is a vegetarian, she suffered no ill effects of her diet up until she got pregnant- during her pregnancy she suffered quite a few complications like iron deficiency because although before hand she was getting enough iron, now she was pregnant she was literally feeding for 2 and she could no longer get enough iron in her diet even with the doctor giving her supliments.
In the end she gave birth to an underweight, premature baby girl, but otherwise healthy than that(she's a couple of years old now). My friend decided to raise her little girl as an omnivore instead of a vegetarian after recognising that a growing child really needs a natural/normal diet and she shouldn't push her beliefs onto her child.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 16:56
Im probably closer to a carnivore, all I eat is meat, candy and dairy products. The only time I usually eat something green is when its covered in cholocate and has caramel inside.

lol. I know you will resist the suggestion, but you may want to reconsider your eating habits.


I do however take a variety of vitimans and fish oil (reduces cholestrol) to make up for my carnivorious life style.

I have never seen healthy eating choices recommended by doctors to be exchanged for supplements. Have you?


Im such a rabbid meat eater, when I order a big mac, or a whopper or any other sandwitch I usually throw the veggies off because I don't like them.

Yeah, I used to do that when I was a kid. I`ve grown up since then and that way of looking at food.

Sometimes, particulary as adults, we should put our pleasures to the side and make choices that will benefit our loved ones who cherish our presence with them and hope to have us for as long as possible. All our loved ones own a little piece of us. It is not true that our bodies are just ours to do with what we want. Our loved ones have an emotional investment in us and we should think how to let them get the greatest return from that as possible.

If I could change an eating habit and not give up any degree of deliciouseness in my meals, and that would allow me to live an extra 3 years to see my grandchild play in his first little league baseball game, or an extra 15 years to see my grandchild graduating H.S., or a myriad of other milestones in his or her life, to me that is an easy decision to make, especially not when I only consider my joys of his company, but knowing that staying with him in this world as long as possible is also bringing cheer to his life, be it an easy one he glides through with ease, or one in which he has hardships and that I can offer some advice to and comfort to.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 17:02
I am a carnitarian, all I eat is meat, candy and dairy products. The only time I usually eat something green is when its covered in cholocate and has caramel inside. I do however take a variety of vitimans and fish oil (reduces cholestrol) to make up for my carnivorious life style.
Im such a rabbid meat eater, when I order a big mac, or a whopper or any other sandwitch I usually throw the veggies off because I don't like them, and am often weary of eating the bun, and alot of the time will not eat it.
I do like pumpkin pie though... one of the few exceptions.
Man, you must really get bad constipation with that sort of diet :eek2: :54: ! No kidding, i'm not trying to play harsh or anything to you, but 'yer gut needs veggie fibre once every now and then to keep the system flowing if you know what i mean- or do you take pills for that too lol :140: ?
Anyhoo...Your diet is totally up to you and i'm not here to judge you or anything etc, but i still believe that a fulling omnivore diet of regular helpings of fruit, veg, white & red meat, fish and dairy products is the best/healthiest way to go when done properly :29: :122: .

Thunderthief
07-04-06, 17:17
Sometimes, particulary as adults, we should put our pleasures to the side and make choices that will benefit our loved ones who cherish our presence with them and hope to have us for as long as possible. All our loved ones own a little piece of us. It is not true that our bodies are just ours to do with what we want. Our loved ones have an emotional investment in us and we should think how to let them get the greatest return from that as possible.
If I could change an eating habit and not give up any degree of deliciouseness in my meals, and that would allow me to live an extra 3 years to see my grandchild play in his first little league baseball game, or an extra 15 years to see my grandchild graduating H.S., or a myriad of other milestones in his or her life, to me that is an easy decision to make, especially not when I only consider my joys of his company, but knowing that staying with him in this world as long as possible is also bringing cheer to his life, be it an easy one he glides through with ease, or one in which he has hardships and that I can offer some advice to and comfort to.
My future is a wreck as it is, ive never been able to keep a girlfriend in all my life for over a week, so I don't think kids or grand kids reasoning is ever going to present itself to me. So I just live life on the edge and don't really care that much if I meet my end a little early, my parents are chain smokers with diets worse than me so I don't think I have alot to worry about there either. Thus, I eat and live how I want without worries.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 17:24
C'mon SVF, we all know that you didn't turn into a vegan because you decided it was the healthy way to go and you wanted that, it was because you disagreed with eating animals.

Whatever my reasons does not detract from the statements above.


The fact of the matter is that modern human beings are evolved omnivores, not herbivores, and we are still designed to eat a variety of foods.

We do not have to eat meat in our modern societies. A healthy life is quite capable and a healthy vegetarian diet reduces the risks of some desieses and does have health benefits.


Yes- you can find a fullfilling diet if you are a vegetarian, but you will find one with more difficulty considering you have a much smaller range of foods to meet your RDA nutritional needs.

A vegetarian is very cognizant of their diet, so much that the variety of their foods increase as they look for more and more ways to vary their meals. Since I have become a vegetarian I droped fish, poultry, pork, and beef from my diet. On the other hand, I have visited many more areas of the supermarket adding many more foods to my diet than I had before. I have experienced a net increase in variety. The only decrease in range to meet my needs in meat. There are plenty of foods to choose from and it has not been difficult for me at all.

However, I did believe that myth that it would be. I had heard that so often, but when it was time for me and my wife to go to the supermarket to go vegetarian we were so surprised at how easy it was. It was easy. Not difficult at all.

Furthermore, vegetarianism is growing. Apparantly more and more people are discovering it is not difficult like some keep on saying.

By the way, we have also been saving money by not having to buy flesh, which is more expensive per gram due to the value added of recourses. My wife just told me three days ago that our shopping bill was about \5,000 (approx $45) less this month than last month.


Doctors still advise pregnant mothers to eat meat, dairy products and fish to have a healthy issue-free pregnancy and child.

It is no secret that doctors are usually behind the research before their advise catches up. There is always that lag. Also, doctors, too, are not imune from cultural prejudices. Those can taint their views and advice in the face of research.

Here is what the ADA says concerning vegetarians and pregnancy:


Lacto-ovo-vegetarian and vegan diets can meet the nutrient and energy needs of pregnant women. Infants of vegetarian mothers generally have birth weights that are similar to those of infants born to nonvegetarians and to birth weight norms

As for your friend you mentioned, Toqis, I can`t really comment on it because I don`t have access to her or the knowledge of how she prepared her meals or took care of herself during her pregnancy. I won`t deny that there are some vegetarians who do not eat smart. Flesh eaters sure do not have a monopoly on making bad eating choices, just like vegetarians have no monopoly on always eating smart.

However, you will find no study by a government, national, or international org of high repute and not funded by the meat industry that says the majority of vegetarian pregnancies result with the problems that your friend had. If you do have such research data, then please direct me to it.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 17:44
Whatever my reasons does not detract from the statements above.
We do not have to eat meat in our modern societies. A healthy life is quite capable and a healthy vegetarian diet reduces the risks of some desieses and does have health benefits.
A vegetarian is very cognizant of their diet, so much that the variety of their foods increase as they look for more and more ways to vary their meals. Since I have become a vegetarian I droped fish, poultry, pork, and beef from my diet. On the other hand, I have visited many more areas of the supermarket adding many more foods to my diet than I had before. I have experienced a net increase in variety. The only decrease in range to meet my needs in meat. There are plenty of foods to choose from and it has not been difficult for me at all.
However, I did believe that myth that it would be. I had heard that so often, but when it was time for me and my wife to go to the supermarket to go vegetarian we were so surprised at how easy it was. It was easy. Not difficult at all.
Furthermore, vegetarianism is growing. Apparantly more and more people are discovering it is not difficult like some keep on saying.
By the way, we have also been saving money by not having to buy flesh, which is more expensive per gram due to the value added of recourses. My wife just told me three days ago that our shopping bill was about \5,000 (approx $45) less this month than last month.
It is no secret that doctors are usually behind the research before their advise catches up. There is always that lag. Also, doctors, too, are not imune from cultural prejudices. Those can taint their views and advice in the face of research.
Here is what the ADA says concerning vegetarians and pregnancy:

Lacto-ovo-vegetarian and vegan diets can meet the nutrient and energy needs of pregnant women. Infants of vegetarian mothers generally have birth weights that are similar to those of infants born to nonvegetarians and to birth weight norms
As for your friend you mentioned, Toqis, I can`t really comment on it because I don`t have access to her or the knowledge of how she prepared her meals or took care of herself during her pregnancy. I won`t deny that there are some vegetarians who do not eat smart. Flesh eaters sure do not have a monopoly on making bad eating choices, just like vegetarians have no monopoly on always eating smart.
However, you will find no study by a government, national, or international org of high repute and not funded by the meat industry that says the majority of vegetarian pregnancies result with the problems that your friend had. If you do have such research data, then please direct me to it.


This is the general low down on pregnancy and nutritional needs from your site;

http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_adar1002b_ENU_HTML.htm

Admittedly i skimmed through some of it a bit, but i could find no where in it that promoted vegetarianism before, during or after pregnancy. Birth weight of a baby is hardly the whole picture when it comes to pregnancy- during a womans pregnancy the baby takes priority to the mothers body in many senses, for example if the mother isn't getting enough iron then whatever iron she has goes to the baby and not to her.
Even anorexic women have been known to give birth to babies with completely normal birth weight, but we obviously cannot promote anorexia in any sense because of this- birth weight issues are complicated.

Vegetarianism in western countries has been around for a long time in concept, but really has not being popular or talked about at all really until about 50-40yrs ago, and even then has only had phases of large quantities of people taking it up- so we cannot really say what the long term health benefets of it our in the fraction of the population that carries this way of diet in comparison to the 97% of Englands population of omnivores.
Omega oils/acid things found in fish are now thought to be a vital part of developing a healthy brain, particually in children, and the prime source of omega is from fish- which true vegetarian diets do not promote.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 18:14
This is the general low down on pregnancy and nutritional needs from your site;
http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_adar1002b_ENU_HTML.htm
Admittedly i skimmed through some of it a bit, but i could find no where in it that promoted vegetarianism before, during or after pregnancy.

Did I say the ADA promoted vegetarianism for pregnant women? "Promoting" would be saying "pregnant women should choose a vegetarian diet," which the paper clearly does not say. It also does not say, "pregnant women should eat meat." Again, what it does say is that:


Lacto-ovo-vegetarian and vegan diets CAN meet the nutrient and energy needs of pregnant women.


Birth weight of a baby is hardly the whole picture when it comes to pregnancy- during a womans pregnancy the baby takes priority to the mothers body in many senses, for example if the mother isn't getting enough iron then whatever iron she has goes to the baby and not to her.
Even anorexic women have been known to give birth to babies with completely normal birth weight, but we obviously cannot promote anorexia in any sense because of this- birth weight issues are complicated.

I won`t deny all that you said, Toqis, but you are still under an obligation to show us that pregnant vegetarian women have and do suffer all those things at a higher rate than nonvegetarian women.

Where is your data on that from a national, international, or gov org of high repute reseach not funded by the meat industry? Do you have such a report? Pregnant flesh eaters can suffer from all those, too, if they do not practice good nutrition and balance amonst their food choices.


Vegetarianism in western countries has been around for a long time in concept, but really has not being popular or talked about at all really until about 50-40yrs ago, and even then has only had phases of large quantities of people taking it up- so we cannot really say what the long term health benefets of it our in the fraction of the population that carries this way of diet in comparison to the 97% of Englands population of omnivores.
Omega oils/acid things found in fish are now thought to be a vital part of developing a healthy brain, particually in children, and the prime source of omega is from fish- which true vegetarian diets do not promote.

Do you have any research studies showing that well maintained vegetarian diets are harmful to health, or that they suffer more sickness and desease percentage wise than flesh eaters? Again, the quotes above from the ADA still stand, in effect saying that a modern vegetarian diet can meet all the needs of those who choose it. In addition it even adds some comments that a vegetarian diet can decrease the risk of some deseases in comparison to the flesh eating diet.

The American Dietetics Association is the largest association of professional dietiticians in the world. Perhaps you have a beef with them. What part of their paper are you saying is wrong? Please remember the operative word above which I bolded in blue is "can."

Minty
07-04-06, 18:23
http://www.i-will.ne.jp/netsuper/prdimg/tofu_steak.jpg

Someone once said "my ancestors worked their arses off getting to the top of the food chain, and I'll be damned if I let all that work go to waste!".
I agree with that.

That picture you posted looks like a tofu side dish rather than a tofu steak! :p Anyway there is nothing wrong with eating tofu but I donft only eat Soya bean products I also eat meat for my protein intake.

I am not a vegetarian even though I eat a lot of vegetables and some fruits each day. I always eat salad, but that is not all I eat, I also eat meat like chicken, beef, pork and seafoods, healthy vegetable oils, carbohydrates, and dairy products. I think overall my diet is balance.:cool:

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 18:34
The American Dietetic Association`s paper goes on to say with regards to infants and children:


Well-planned vegan, lacto-vegetarian, and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan, lacto-vegetarian, and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence can aid in the establishment of lifelong healthy eating patterns and can offer some important nutritional advantages. Vegetarian children and adolescents have lower intakes of cholesterol, saturated fat, and total fat and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, and fiber than nonvegetarians (2,116-118). Vegetarian children have also been reported to be leaner and to have lower serum cholesterol levels .

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 18:43
Did I say the ADA promoted vegetarianism for pregnant women? "Promoting" would be saying "pregnant women should choose a vegetarian diet," which the paper clearly does not say. It also does not say, "pregnant women should eat meat." Again, what it does say is that:

Lacto-ovo-vegetarian and vegan diets CAN meet the nutrient and energy needs of pregnant women.
I won`t deny all that you said, Toqis, but you are still under an obligation to show us that pregnant vegetarian women have and do suffer all those things at a higher rate than nonvegetarian women.
Where is your data on that from a national, international, or gov org of high repute reseach not funded by the meat industry? Do you have such a report? Pregnant flesh eaters can suffer from all those, too, if they do not practice good nutrition and balance amonst their food choices.

Vegetarians are more likely to have girls- quite literally. "a vegetarian diet places stress on the female body, meaning that female foetuses, which are known to be more robust, survive, while male foetuses are killed off";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/869696.stm

Oily fish is the no.1 source for Omega-3 fatty acids, these acids are crucial to the development of a healthy brain in children and have many benefets for the body all-round;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631006.stm

So you could say that cutting out fish of your diet due to vegetarianism could have negative effects on your babies brain while you are pregnant.

""It's absolutely essential that pregnant women take in enough Omega-3 and that children in early infancy take in enough Omega-3."

"Seeds such as flax, pumpkin and hemp are good sources of Omega-3 for vegetarians, but large quantities need to be consumed to gain the same effect."

If you do not like hemp, flax or pumpkin or are allergic to it, then you are pretty screwed then so to speak as far as your omega goes unless you take a lot of pill supliments for it.
Its one of the reasons though why doctors don't promote vegetarian diets for pregnant women.


Do you have any research studies showing that well maintained vegetarian diets are harmful to health, or that they suffer more sickness and desease percentage wise than flesh eaters?


A well maintained vegetarian diet is not harmful to anyone. A well maintained omnivore diet is not harmful to anyone either. But i felt that you were promoting vegetarian diets as a healthier way to go than normal omnivore diets- i think this quote pretty much sums it all up;

"You get good and bad vegetarian diets and good and bad omnivorous diets.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3787925.stm

When you said to Clawn that if he cared about his health or his loved ones, he should go vegetarian. I think this a wrong thing to say- going vegetarian will not save you from bad health just as much as any other form of non-omnivore diet, sure there are statistics, but vegetarians make up a fraction of the population and so there is far bigger room for error as far as bad health is concerned for the rest of the omnivore population as there are millions more people to take into account.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 18:50
Vegetarians are more likely to have girls- quite literally. "a vegetarian diet places stress on the female body, meaning that female foetuses, which are known to be more robust, survive, while male foetuses are killed off";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/869696.stm

Toqis, did you read the story to the first link all the way through? Here is what it said later about the research you are referring to:


The research was dismissed by Catherine Collins, of the British Dietetic Association, as a "statistical fluke".

And it goes into more detail on the matter. Please read the whole thing through. YOu basically referenced an article with researchers that dispute each other and one calling the other study results a "fluke."

Not a very good reference to cite.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:02
Oily fish is the no.1 source for Omega-3 fatty acids, these acids are crucial to the development of a healthy brain in children and have many benefets for the body all-round;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4631006.stm

So you could say that cutting out fish of your diet due to vegetarianism could have negative effects on your babies brain while you are pregnant.

""It's absolutely essential that pregnant women take in enough Omega-3 and that children in early infancy take in enough Omega-3."

"Seeds such as flax, pumpkin and hemp are good sources of Omega-3 for vegetarians, but large quantities need to be consumed to gain the same effect."

If you do not like hemp, flax or pumpkin or are allergic to it, then you are pretty screwed then so to speak as far as your omega goes unless you take a lot of pill supliments for it.
Its one of the reasons though why doctors don't promote vegetarian diets for pregnant women.

Toqis, a proper vegetarian diet with the seed option can adequately make up for the Omega-3. Do you have something that says a modern vegetarian diet properly followed cannot provide the needs? I am still waiting for you to find something that says a vegetarian diet is not good for or cannot provide for the needs of an expecting mother. You still have not found that.

I would think that if that is the thought which has been born out be respectable research from a gov org or professional org of high repute, then referencing a research paper with a clear statement against vegetarianism for pregnant women would not be that hard to find. In fact, there should be many. Why haven`t you found that in no ambiguous language. Until now, you have been trying to extrapolate that sentiment. Doctors and researchers are scientists, they are very straight and clear with their sentiments so please show me a study with a position that goes negative against a proper modern vegetarian diet for pregnant women.

I`m waiting.

In the mean time, look at the last part again of your link. It does not say what you are trying to extrapolate. It says that the needs can be met.


Seed option

"It's absolutely essential that pregnant women take in enough Omega-3 and that children in early infancy take in enough Omega-3."

The richest sources of Omega-3 are larger fish which eat other fish, but research shows that the larger the fish the more pollutants, such as mercury, they contain.

For this reason Mr Holford recommends women consume two portions of wild or organic salmon, trout or sardines weekly.

Seeds such as flax, pumpkin and hemp are good sources of Omega-3 for vegetarians, but large quantities need to be consumed to gain the same effect.

This might translate to two tablespoons of seeds daily, Mr Holford said, but women can also use a high quality Omega-3 supplements.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 19:08
Toqis, did you read the story to the first link all the way through? Here is what it said later about the research you are referring to:

The research was dismissed by Catherine Collins, of the British Dietetic Association, as a "statistical fluke".
And it goes into more detail on the matter. Please read the whole thing through. YOu basically referenced an article with researchers that dispute each other and one calling the other study results a "fluke."
Not a very good reference to cite.

"Statistical fluke" hmm, well... i referenced it because it did show concerns over vegetarian diets and pregnancy- i could easily call your healthier people vegetarian diet statistics a "statistical fluke", the fact of the matter is it was raising concern over vegetarian diets- it did not on the other hand say there were no issues with such diets and pregnancy. Anyways, here's some more controversy to add to the fire;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/286265.stm

Considering that soya is also such a widespread vegetarian food, particually for vegan diets, this could also be worrying news;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4115506.stm

On a slightly different note to pregnancy, a man went blind due to a strict vegan diet;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/687996.stm

"Vitamin supplementation is essential in persons who adhere to a strict vegetarian diet, especially because vitamin deficiencies may cause severe, irreversible optic neuropathy."

A lot of vegetarians are very health conscious as many people who go vegetarian do it for the health benefets. Such a diet can go very badly though if the person is not very aware of meeting their nutritional needs without animal products.

"A spokeswoman said: "The problem with the man in question was that his diet was not balanced at all. Most vegetarians will normally take in cheese, dairy products and eggs and most vegans supplement their diets with soya milk and other foods, so they are getting vitamins and minerals.

"The essence of the situation is that if you are not having a balanced diet you are going to have problems. You need to take in as many different food sources as possible."

I think it was wrong of you to preach and emotionally guilt-trip Clawn into going vegetarian.
You cannot deny that by cutting out so many nutritional food sources like animal products will make you at lesser risk from having an unhealthy diet. A varied diet is the key to good health, by cutting out animal products you are making it a lot less varied and thus much harder to attain to a problem-free diet. Lack of protein for example can lead to low sex drive in men;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/613396.stm

"People who do not eat meat are particularly at risk, because animal products are good sources of high biological value proteins."

"In the elderly population, people tend to have lower protein intake because of poor denticulation, which means they can't eat as much meat, and poorer appetite. The same is the case for vegetarians and vegans."

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:08
A well maintained vegetarian diet is not harmful to anyone. A well maintained omnivore diet is not harmful to anyone either. But i felt that you were promoting vegetarian diets as a healthier way to go than normal omnivore diets- i think this quote pretty much sums it all up;

"You get good and bad vegetarian diets and good and bad omnivorous diets.";


Oh, sorry, Toqis. I saw this part of your post after I posted my former one. I see now that you have stated what I am sure we both knew.

Your quote above is right. Both can be good and both can be bad.

I am not promoting vegetarian diets as a healthier way to go than normal omnivore diets -- I am merely relaying what professional research papers are stating on the subject and it is THEM who are putting forth the data that vegetarian diets offer advantages over flesh eating diets. I will continue highlighting and relaying what THEY say on the topic.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 19:11
Oh, sorry, Toqis. I saw this part of your post after I posted my former one. I see now that you have stated what I am sure we both knew.
Your quote above is right. Both can be good and both can be bad.
I am not promoting vegetarian diets as a healthier way to go than normal omnivore diets -- I am merely relaying what professional research papers are stating on the subject and it is THEM who are putting forth the data that vegetarian diets offer advantages over flesh eating diets. I will continue highlighting and relaying what THEY say on the topic.

Where exactly is the link/exact page adress to this info?

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:12
"Statistical fluke" hmm, well... i referenced it because it did show concerns over vegetarian diets and pregnancy- i could ...

The point is the article shot itself down. And I think the explanation by the lady who is a member of the British Dietetic Society was rather common sense in explaining why it was a fluke. But, if you wish to believe that research, it is up to you.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 19:15
Toqis, a proper vegetarian diet with the seed option can adequately make up for the Omega-3. Do you have something that says a modern vegetarian diet properly followed cannot provide the needs? I am still waiting for you to find something that says a vegetarian diet is not good for or cannot provide for the needs of an expecting mother. You still have not found that.

I never said vegetarian diets "cannot" provide a pregnant mothers nutritional needs, which is why i have not shown you any links regarding that.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:16
Where exactly is the link/exact page adress to this info?

AMERICAN DIETETIC ASSOCIATION: Vegetarian Diets (http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_933_ENU_HTML.htm).

It has extensive, and I mean EXTENSIVE references, so if you want to track all that down, I think you will be in for a year of research. But, it could be quite educating and interesting. Let me know if you decide to start running down every reference.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:23
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/286265.stm

Considering that soya is also such a widespread vegetarian food, particually for vegan diets, this could also be worrying news;

I for one would never say there are some diets or food groups that offer no risk. The article was interesting but it also said that there was no definitive link -- just suspect. Also this was stated:


They believe that a vegetarian diet alone is unlikely to cause hypospadias.

But they think vegetarians are probably eating more of something that is to blame - soya is a suspect.

According to the researchers, the defect may be caused by crop pesticides or naturally occurring chemicals called phytoestrogens.

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on pesticides. Nothing definitive in this article.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:29
I never said vegetarian diets "cannot" provide a pregnant mothers nutritional needs, which is why i have not shown you any links regarding that.

I know. It looks as if we were posting at the same time. And, you will see above where I apologised for posting before reading your disclaimer on the matter. However, I did innitiate asking you for that statement against vegetarianism for pregnancy because you used your friend as if she were some proof that I should take that a vegetarian diet was not adequate for pregnancy and then followed up on other points that a feotus needed as if a vegetarian diet could not provide that.

Anyway, it doesn`t matter. We have both agreed that a proper vegetarian diet can provide for the needs of a pregnant mother and her feotus. Likewise, we have agreed that their are stupid omnivores and vegetarians when it comes to eating habits. Neither have a monopoly on stupidity.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:37
I`ve just finished reading all those links you posted above, Toqis. Again, nothing definitive. A lot of phrases that leave doubt as to the causes of the problems and some alternatives to avoid the problems without going off of a vegetarian diet was all provided for. Again, they did nothing to to show that a proper vegetarian diet is bad or dangerous.

I am not sure why you keep posting them since they are not refuting vegetarianism. I wholly admit that there probably isn`t any one miracle diet that protects us from all things or desieses. After all, aging is a desiese and a vegetarian diet sure won`t cure that.

The point is that more and more studies are producing the benefits and advantages of adopting a vegetarian diet. Sure, there may be a few negatives here and there, but the results of the majority of the studies seem to be showing a trend in the positive aspects of a vegetarian diet.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 19:40
I know. It looks as if we were posting at the same time. And, you will see above where I apologised for posting before reading your disclaimer on the matter. However, I did innitiate asking you for that statement against vegetarianism for pregnancy because you used your friend as if she were some proof that I should take that a vegetarian diet was not adequate for pregnancy and then followed up on other points that a feotus needed as if a vegetarian diet could not provide that.
Anyway, it doesn`t matter. We have both agreed that a proper vegetarian diet can provide for the needs of a pregnant mother and her feotus. Likewise, we have agreed that their are stupid omnivores and vegetarians when it comes to eating habits. Neither have a monopoly on stupidity.

I agree :cool: ! Both omnivore and vegetarian diets are healthy when gone about correctly. Simply eating non-animal products though will not secure you a healthy body just as much as simply eating animal products. I still believe an omnivore diet is the best way to go but i do not disagree that a vegetarian diet is very healthy too when gone about correctly- i think our only difference in opinion is that i prefer to advise omnivore diets while you prefer to advise vegetarian diets.
I am still reading the article you gave me, so i may still further discuss the benefets or negative aspects of a vegetarian diet.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 19:43
I agree :cool: ! Both omnivore and vegetarian diets are healthy when gone about correctly. Simply eating non-animal products though will not secure you a healthy body just as much as simply eating animal products. I still believe an omnivore diet is the best way to go but i do not disagree that a vegetarian diet is very healthy too when gone about correctly- i think our only difference in opinion is that i prefer to advise omnivore diets while you prefer to advise vegetarian diets.
I am still reading the article you gave me, so i may still further discuss the benefets or negative aspects of a vegetarian diet.

Fair enough. Well worded.

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 20:19
Hmm...
With a vegetarian diet you are more likely to become malnutritioned as you cut out many large food sources/animal products. True, vegetarian diet can be very healthy if gone about correctly, i underline that "correctly", but you do put yourself at greater risk from malnutrition of various sorts i.e.;

"Breast milk DHA levels in vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian women appear to be lower than levels in nonvegetarians (144). Because DHA seems to play a role in the development of the brain and the eye and because a dietary supply of DHA may be important for the fetus and newborn, pregnant and lactating vegans and vegetarians (unless eggs are eaten regularly) should include sources of the DHA precursor linolenic acid in their diet (ground flaxseed, flaxseed oil, canola oil, soybean oil) or use a vegetarian DHA supplement (from microalgae). Foods containing linoleic acid (corn, safflower, and sunflower oil) and trans-fatty acids (stick margarine, foods with hydrogenated fats) should be limited because these fatty acids can inhibit DHA production from linolenic acid (145)."

none the less. The Vegan Society in the UK does recommend that vegans supplement their diet with vitamin B-12 pills for example as well.
Your link so far has proved very interesting, i would personally advise if you are going to advise anyone to go vegetarian you should give them that link so they have an indepth resource into going about the vegetarian diet correctly.
But what do you say about this controversy;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

If you had a child, would you raise them on a vegan diet and tell them "meat is murder"?
Many vegetarians complain their parents forced them to eat meat when they were under their care but had already decided they wanted to be vegetarian. I think this is no different with vegans forcing their children not to eat meat. Personally i think the child should be raised on a normal free range and organic omnivore diet and allowed to make up their own minds as they grow up and not be forced or emotionally blackmailed into taking either side.

strongvoicesforward
07-04-06, 20:25
Hi Toqis,

I just got back from walking my dogs and it is 3:30 a.m. now. I read your previous post and I will respond sometime tomorrow. Sorry, I have to get to sleep. As much as we vegetarians need good nutrition -- we also need enough sleep. ;-) Don`t want to be sleep deprived, you know.

You have a good day. This exchange has been fun and interesting. -- SVF

Tokis-Phoenix
07-04-06, 20:29
Hi Toqis,
I just got back from walking my dogs and it is 3:30 a.m. now. I read your previous post and I will respond sometime tomorrow. Sorry, I have to get to sleep. As much as we vegetarians need good nutrition -- we also need enough sleep. ;-) Don`t want to be sleep deprived, you know.
You have a good day. This exchange has been fun and interesting. -- SVF

Good debating with you too, see you tommorrow :) . Eat & sleep well :cool: !

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 03:50
Hmm...
With a vegetarian diet you are more likely to become malnutritioned as you cut out many large food sources/animal products.

This statement is wrong for as far as it goes to proper nutrition. One can become malnourished even when consuming a largely meat diet as well, but I wouldn`t say that. The fact of the matter is, either one can lead to malnourishment if not done correctly and there is no research statement by a gov org, or professional association of high repute that singles vegetarians out as having demonstrated this in a large percentage of their diet group. I thought we already covered this so I am not sure why you are coming back to this. A proper modern vegetarian diet can satisfy all nutritional needs, and in fact has some advantages. I don`t want to have to requote what I already have (but I will if need be).


True, vegetarian diet can be very healthy if gone about correctly, i underline that "correctly", but you do put yourself at greater risk from malnutrition of various sorts i.e.;

And the same goes for an omnivorous diet that is not done correctly. As for "greater risk," again, please show me the research and positions of well reputed orgs that echo that statement.

The ADA outlines in its position paper on vegetarians far more advantages they enjoy over a range of desieses and risks that affect many more of the population as a whole than the negative risks.

As this thread advances, I will list more of them to drive that point home even harder.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 04:05
"Breast milk DHA levels in vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian women appear to be lower than levels in nonvegetarians (144). Because DHA seems to play a role in the development of the brain and the eye and because a dietary supply of DHA may be important for the fetus and newborn, pregnant and lactating vegans and vegetarians (unless eggs are eaten regularly) should include sources of the DHA precursor linolenic acid in their diet (ground flaxseed, flaxseed oil, canola oil, soybean oil) or use a vegetarian DHA supplement (from microalgae). Foods containing linoleic acid (corn, safflower, and sunflower oil) and trans-fatty acids (stick margarine, foods with hydrogenated fats) should be limited because these fatty acids can inhibit DHA production from linolenic acid (145)."

Yes, so what? Are you just agreeing with me that the requirements can be met and risks limited with no problem? The position paper you are citing above clearly explains they can.

Again, an improper omnivorous diet can also be dangerous to pregnant ladies, or anyone for that matter. If both are done so properly, there is no risk to pregnant ladies.

We have been talking about a subset part (i.e. pregnancy) of vegetarianism. There is no position paper by a well reputed group that says a proper vegetarian diet contains risks or that the population group of vegetarians as a whole had demonstrated worse health than flesh eaters. However, the paper, with many references to back its posititon up, sites study after study of numerous researches that point to the advantages of a vegetarian diet.

You keep hinting at improper or incorrect vegetarian diets having risks. Well, I won't argue that, just as I am sure you won`t argue the risks of improper omnivorous diet, so why keep talking about an "improper" or "incorrect" anything? Anything not done properly or correctly puts one at higher risk for sickness. That is a given. A proper vegetarian diet has no more risks than a flesh eating diet. But, its advantages are continuing to be uncovered with more and more research over the major desieses and factors (obesity, diabetes, cholestoral, colon cancer, prostate cancer, heart desiese, etc.... to just name a few) that are affecting the largest portions of the population.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 04:18
none the less. The Vegan Society in the UK does recommend that vegans supplement their diet with vitamin B-12 pills for example as well.

Taking one or two supplements and reaping the advantages of a vegetarian diet is a very small trade off for the returns.

That is what I mean by a "modern vegetarian" diet. A vegetarian diet perhaps 200 years ago would maybe lead to complications (though some Bhuddists and Hindus may disagree with that), but with today`s knowledge and B12 supplements, not only does it not lead to complications, it has advantages.


Your link so far has proved very interesting, i would personally advise if you are going to advise anyone to go vegetarian you should give them that link so they have an indepth resource into going about the vegetarian diet correctly.

Yes, it is a good link and for all those concerned about nutrition/health and interesting studies on health, should bookmark it for reference -- particularly those who are considering going vegetarian.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 04:39
But what do you say about this controversy;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm
If you had a child, would you raise them on a vegan diet and tell them "meat is murder"?

Toqis, this quote, "meat is murder" is from an industry intent on attacking PETA. I want to stay on the issue of vegetarianism in this thread, so I won`t go into that "phrasology" highlighted in the article as it concerns Peta.

Would I tell my child "meat is murder," in effect using campaign cliche` slogans to educate them on the values our family adhere to? No, I wouldn`t. I would not sit them down on the sofa and say, "meat is murder." I don`t think most adult parents impart to their children their beliefs through campaign cliche`s.

I would say "our family does not eat flesh. We find it wrong to kill animals and eat them." Depending on their age, I would use words dealing with "ethics, philosophy, etc..." At a young age there are many ways to impart the ethics of not killing to children in a way that their empathy and respect for all life is nurtured -- without having to resort to campaign slogans.
Now, as for that article, the study was done in Africa. I have not seen the article and am not sure it has been accepted by journals of high medical research repute for publication and peer revue. Do you know if it has? Being done in Africa where there are just a host of nutritional problems causes one`s eyebrow to wise as to whether everything could have been properly controlled.

Also, accepting that research being done by "The Cattleman`s Beef Association" would be like accepting a research done by Ford citing its study that Ford cares are better and safer than Toyota cars. You would agree there is a conflict of interest in such research, wouldn`t you? Most would.

Furthermore, Allen Lindsey is an employee of the USDA. The USDA for years has gone out of its way to help and support the meat industry. There budget is tied to the success and growth of the industry and their employees are subject to intensive lobbying by the meat industry. There are a host of problems with the USDA that I will also go into furhter detail later.

I am sorry, but every part of that story is refutable or suspect, or shows linkage to corporate interests, or perhaps even prejudices. The person gave a speech on her research supported by agenda minded association built on proffits with an interest in protecting those profits, and another person, a professor gave a personal view statement. There is no reference to a position paper against vegetarianism or the advantages of a meat diet over vegetarianism by a professional association or org of high standing repute without an agenda or without ties to corporate interests.

Again, the ADA position statement references more than a hundred researches and studies on the topic and they are highly respected throughout the world for their unbiased and scientific professionalism. I would go with their words and the researches they cite on the issue rather than scour through BBC articles looking for comments by individuals. A large group/org of individuals having signed off on the wording of their position in an official paper is more trustable than quotes by individuals giving thier own views.

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 11:07
Toqis, this quote, "meat is murder" is from an industry intent on attacking PETA. I want to stay on the issue of vegetarianism in this thread, so I won`t go into that "phrasology" highlighted in the article as it concerns Peta.
Would I tell my child "meat is murder," in effect using campaign cliche` slogans to educate them on the values our family adhere to? No, I wouldn`t. I would not sit them down on the sofa and say, "meat is murder." I don`t think most adult parents impart to their children their beliefs through campaign cliche`s.

Ok so you wouldn't tell them popular slogans/phrases from campaigns or coperations etc.


I would say "our family does not eat flesh. We find it wrong to kill animals and eat them." Depending on their age, I would use words dealing with "ethics, philosophy, etc..." At a young age there are many ways to impart the ethics of not killing to children in a way that their empathy and respect for all life is nurtured -- without having to resort to campaign slogans.

On the other hand you would essentially rule out an omnivorous diet to the child by saying "we don't eat meat in this house" or "we don't cook animal products" and "we think killing animals is wrong, we don't support that"- so you are essentially forcing the child into a vegan lifestyle/diet.
Your beliefs on morality are just that, i don't think its wrong to force your beliefs onto children who don't know any better.
I used to know a girl ages ago whose parents were incredibly strict christians- they forced her to abide by their beliefs and morals throughout her life, not really giving her any options to do otherwise. Her parents forbid her to wear skirts for example, because they thought they were too revealing (she was 18yrs old by the way when i met her), and forced her to go to church almost every day.
Now the point of this story is that her parents thought they were doing the best thing for her by forcing their values on her whole life, but i think this was very wrong of them. I think she should have been allowed to live a normal life and then decide on what she wanted to do when she was old enough.
Do you think it was perfectly justified for the christian parents to force their beleifs on their daughter their whole life?
Some parents think arranged marriages are the best thing for their children, others think sending them off to the army to go to war is the best thing for them etc. When it comes down to it, its all about forcing or pressuring your beliefs onto other people- you may think you are right, but i still don't think that changes anything as to what you are doing.


Now, as for that article, the study was done in Africa. I have not seen the article and am not sure it has been accepted by journals of high medical research repute for publication and peer revue. Do you know if it has? Being done in Africa where there are just a host of nutritional problems causes one`s eyebrow to wise as to whether everything could have been properly controlled.

I have not seen the article either, but i think its fairly plausable that meat could help give a starving african a lot of energy/better health- during WW2 in england for example, millions of people depended on dried/preserved meat giving them the nutrients they needed to supliment their sparse diets for years on end. Meat is packed full of protein, protein is not only a hunger supressent but also a vital basic energy source.
Research aside, i think its pretty much common sense/obvious on the benefets of eating meat.


Also, accepting that research being done by "The Cattleman`s Beef Association" would be like accepting a research done by Ford citing its study that Ford cares are better and safer than Toyota cars. You would agree there is a conflict of interest in such research, wouldn`t you? Most would.

There would be some conflict of interest in research, but i think thats not a reason to take it with a pinch of salt so to speak- it would be no different than me doubting research on the benefets of vegetarianism done by vegetaraians or people trying to sell or incourage those products. Sure it might be a bit biased at tops, but its still research none the less and cannot be completely flawed.


Furthermore, Allen Lindsey is an employee of the USDA. The USDA for years has gone out of its way to help and support the meat industry. There budget is tied to the success and growth of the industry and their employees are subject to intensive lobbying by the meat industry. There are a host of problems with the USDA that I will also go into furhter detail later.

I havn't heard about that, but i'll take your word for it for now.


I am sorry, but every part of that story is refutable or suspect, or shows linkage to corporate interests, or perhaps even prejudices. The person gave a speech on her research supported by agenda minded association built on proffits with an interest in protecting those profits, and another person, a professor gave a personal view statement. There is no reference to a position paper against vegetarianism or the advantages of a meat diet over vegetarianism by a professional association or org of high standing repute without an agenda or without ties to corporate interests.

You cannot deny though that beef is an excellant source of protein. My point in this though is the subject/controversy of raising children on vegan diets.


Again, the ADA position statement references more than a hundred researches and studies on the topic and they are highly respected throughout the world for their unbiased and scientific professionalism. I would go with their words and the researches they cite on the issue rather than scour through BBC articles looking for comments by individuals. A large group/org of individuals having signed off on the wording of their position in an official paper is more trustable than quotes by individuals giving thier own views.

Their statistics seem good, but there is no harm in gaining other viewpoints or sources into this debate.

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 11:16
Taking one or two supplements and reaping the advantages of a vegetarian diet is a very small trade off for the returns.
That is what I mean by a "modern vegetarian" diet. A vegetarian diet perhaps 200 years ago would maybe lead to complications (though some Bhuddists and Hindus may disagree with that), but with today`s knowledge and B12 supplements, not only does it not lead to complications, it has advantages.

The fact that taking vitamin/mineral supliments though is strongly advised leads be to believe that the diet is otherwise flawed on its own in some respects. Not many soon-to-be-vegans invision taking loads of pills on a regular basis just to make their diet safe and workable.
If you did an experiement and left 2 people with no understanding or just a basis/average one of nutrition in an inclosed area for say a couple of months, and gave one an omnivorous diet consisting of vegetables, fruits, lentils/beans/cereals, red & white meat, fish, dairy products and eggs etc, and the second person a standard vegan diet consisting of nuts, lentils/beans/cereals, vegetables, and fruit and whatever else vegans can eat- i am sure the second person would be more malnutritioned and/or underweight after a certain period of time. Why? Because there's more room for error in a vegan diet because you are seriously limiting what you can eat to get your RDA of nutrition.

We both agree that both diets can be healthy when gone about correctly, but there's more room for error in a vegan diet especialy without artificial vitamin/mineral supliments and just a basis understanding of nutrition or none at all- i don't think you can deny this.

Flashjeff
08-04-06, 11:24
Hey, if people want to be vegetarians, then, more power to 'em. That's their choice, and I respect them for that. As for me? I eat veggies, I particularly love corn, celery and green beans (raw), but I gotta have my meat! As far as I'm concerned, a day without a helping of dead animal is like a day without sunshine!
:D

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 16:23
Hi FlashJeff. Nice to see your opinion and sharing your diet preference with us. Hope you keep on visiting the thread enter the conversation as it progresses. Everyone is welcome. -- SVF

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 16:55
Hi Toqis,

Hope you`ve been having a good day/night. My wife and I just got from a movie and dinner. Read your two new posts above and they were thought provoking. Really am enjoying this discussion. Ok, let me address your points.



On the other hand you would essentially rule out an omnivorous diet to the child by saying "we don't eat meat in this house" or "we don't cook animal products" and "we think killing animals is wrong, we don't support that"- so you are essentially forcing the child into a vegan lifestyle/diet. ...

Yes, you are right. It is forcing. However, I will explain below why some forcing is quite justified.


I used to know a girl ages ago whose parents were incredibly strict christians- they forced her to abide by their beliefs and morals throughout her life, ... and forced her to go to church almost every day.

Now the point of this story is that her parents thought they were doing the best thing for her by forcing their values on her whole life, but i think this was very wrong of them. I think she should have been allowed to live a normal life and then decide on what she wanted to do when she was old enough.

Do you think it was perfectly justified for the christian parents to force their beleifs on their daughter their whole life?

You mean until she was old enough to stop living under their rules, in their house, and start making her own money? A part of me wants to say "yes," but I will say "no."

First of all, many teenagers who feel repressed like you have said do rebel and in many cases after strong resistance from the child, a child can have her will win out on "going to church" rules and doing the "christian things" that Christian parents try to force on their children. I am a good example of that as are many of my friends and cousins. We just rebelled at around 12 and trying to force us into a car just became too tiresome for our parents when we were larger and physically able to resist.

And guess what? -- vegetarian parents do report cases of their children not following their ethics and rebelling in their younger teens. When it comes to customs, there is always some attrition with the next generation refusing to carry the ball on.

But, I did answer "no" to your question why I felt it not right for Christians to force their religion on to their children. I answer that way simply because there is no empiracle evidence garnered through scientific research and studies for truth in what they believe (i.e. an afterlife with a God, Son of God, a book with names in them, die a martyre and get 40 virgins in the afterlife, etc...).

But I did answer "yes" to why I think it is right for children to be raised vegetarian before being given the choice or before they can rebel -- why? Because today we have research and studies done by professional scientists, dieticians, doctors, etc... which points to the health benefits based on empiracle science. Testable claims to a truthful message can be retested and confirmed by independent future studies. There is no fraud going on here and if there is, the scientific method is self correcting and fraudulent claims will be uncovered and the test will be modified and new data will be had to support or refute past and future tests.


Some parents think arranged marriages are the best thing for their children, others think sending them off to the army to go to war is the best thing for them etc. When it comes down to it, its all about forcing or pressuring your beliefs onto other people- you may think you are right, but i still don't think that changes anything as to what you are doing.

It only matters if we think we are right and can act on that thought if the data and research we have support our thoughts and opinions on the topic. If the data supports it, then it is ok to act on that by raising our children in a manner that is supported by reason and not just a hair brain idea that has been untested.

I don`t think data (or even if there is data like that from studies) supports those examples you gave, so I would not say it is right that parents do those things to their children.

On the other hand, data does support the health benefits of children raised on a vegetarian diet. Data does not support the health benefits of a child permitted to watch all the violent TV programmng and porn on the internet he/she wants, so therefore it is quite acceptable that parents force their rules/ethics about consuming violent images on kids by choosing them to not let them view those things. Even if most kids in school or the neighborhood are being permitted by their parents to watch those shows (i.e. being 'normal' for their subgroup), the parent still has the right, if not the responsibility, to prohibit practices that research and data have shown to hurt and or promote the activities that are shown to be beneficial.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 17:26
I have not seen the article either, but i think its fairly plausable that meat could help give a starving african a lot of energy/better health- during WW2 in england for example, millions of people depended on dried/preserved meat giving them the nutrients they needed to supliment their sparse diets for years on end.

Of course it could. But, are we talking about survival in extreme situations or are we talking about a vegetarian diet for those not confronted with survival?

I am quite aware that people can`t have vegetable gargens in the far north and that they "survive" on seal meat for long stretches. "Survival" situations is not the topic, is it? or are you wanting to make that the issue? If so, I will be the first to admit that in life and death struggles for life, the diet readily available that presents itself to us is the one we will take.

It really doesn`t take any Einstein to figure out that meat for starving children could help them, BECAUSE they are STARVING! (emphasis not directed at you). However, meat for serving the starving masses is not practical -- and if the protein equivelant in meat of what they get from plant life were attempted to be switched, it would in all probability be a severe drain on recourses and impact the environment badly, creating a host of other problems.

Using the starving masses for justifying a flesh eating diet is not very sound. It would cause environmental problems and I will find you some data and figures on how "meat" is an inefficient means of converting plant callories for our use. The numbers are quite interesting and the implications for the environment and the poor people of the world are quite eye opening.


Meat is packed full of protein, protein is not only a hunger supressent but also a vital basic energy source.

It is but there still remains that a vegetarian diet is just as good and has some advantages over a flesh eating one. The advantages cannot be swept away. Btw, do you have any position statement that says African poor would benefit more if they were omniverous and not vegetarian? You do know that meat protein is much more expensive than plant protein, don`t you? With the same amount of funding used to purchase callorie recourses to feed the poor, it would mean less people being fed. What do you say to those that get nothing? You could purchase far more plant protein and callories by staying green and therefore feed more people. The world already knows that. That is why food assistance does not come in meat form. It is impractical and would be ineficient to do so. More would suffer if the fixed amount of funds were to be diverted to meat protein.


Research aside, i think its pretty much common sense/obvious on the benefets of eating meat.

Setting research aside is not a common sense thing to do. Doing so allows for myths to be carried on.

A vegetarian diet offers advantages. That has been born out in research with position papers on it. However, if someone is starving and meat is there, I would recommend consuming it. But, the discussion of vegetarianism is not one fixed on the severe situations and immediate dilema of survival. No UN programs when shipping grains to stave off starvation entertain the thought of providing the luxuries of meat.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 17:39
There would be some conflict of interest in research [Cattlemens Association sponsoring funding for research on the benefits of meat consumption], but i think thats not a reason to take it with a pinch of salt so to speak- it would be no different than me doubting research on the benefets of vegetarianism done by vegetaraians or people trying to sell or incourage those products. Sure it might be a bit biased at tops, but its still research none the less and cannot be completely flawed.

If those vegetarians sponsoring the research were the agribusinesses with large fields of brocali for selling to the market, then you would be and should be suspicious/skeptical of those findings. I would be and I wouldn`t fault you for being so. Vegetarian research however are not done by people with silo fulls of grain and fields of brocali.

When a multi-billion dollar international industry with large lobbying power is funding research for its product, one should take it with a pinch of salt until that research is peer reviewed by a well reputed independent org made up of professionals in that field.

I wouldn`t trust tobacco industries' research if they published studies about how deep inhaling from long drags helped asthma because it helps exercises the lungs by pushing them to full expansion capacity, would you? Now, I might if an independent org without ties came to that finding, or I may even do so if an independent org or several of them peer revued the research and endorsed it.

However, conflicts of interests are real, and when they are glaringly clear a pinch of salt is how they should be taken. Come on, Toqis, cede that point. Most would. I don`t think that is too big of a thing to admit.

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 18:00
It really doesn`t take any Einstein to figure out that meat for starving children could help them, BECAUSE they are STARVING! (emphasis not directed at you). However, meat for serving the starving masses is not practical -- and if the protein equivelant in meat of what they get from plant life were attempted to be switched, it would in all probability be a severe drain on recourses and impact the environment badly, creating a host of other problems.


Do you have any research to back up your claims that feeding meat to starving masses is not practical in comparison to crops in africa? On the subject of africa, crop growing is even less practical than farming animals in many senses- take into consideration the yearly water shortages over there and then you will realise that many people are starving because their crops are failing.
Many animals like goats can live on plant matter that we cannot eat but can grow in sparse conditions like grass, and can survive on very little water- which is why goat farming is very popular in africa.



Using the starving masses for justifying a flesh eating diet is not very sound. It would cause environmental problems and I will find you some data and figures on how "meat" is an inefficient means of converting plant callories for our use. The numbers are quite interesting and the implications for the environment and the poor people of the world are quite eye opening.

Farming animal products is good for the economy just as much as crop growing is- in places like africa where you cannot be choosey about what you farm, where its more of a case of grab and grow whatever is posible, saying that farming animals is bad because it causes enviromental problems cannot be justified over crop growing because over there they suffer just as many issues as each other.

A small plot of wheat may fail before its even ripened due to the weather, and the energy that goes into growing and farming it is great. Growing crops in places like africa is incredibly difficult due to the poor weather/water shortages and the amount of energy that goes into growing the stuff- you need a whole family to plow the feilds, seed them, tend the crops, water them, protect them, harvest them and convert them into some sort of food source.

A cow on the other hand is pretty easy to manage- you just simply move it to places where it can feed and occasionally drink- only one person is needed to do this. The cow can provide milk for years on end. You only need one person to slaughter it, and its meat can feed a whole family for months on end- its cow pats can be used as fuel as well for fires.
This is one of the main reasons why a cow is far more valuble than a couple of sackloads of wheat, or pretty much any vegetable for that matter.

Trying to suggest that africans would all be better off if they gave up meat eating and farming animals and instead, all took their ploughs up and toiled the land for seasons on end to scrap in a tiny fat and protein source is just stupid IMO.



It is but there still remains that a vegetarian diet is just as good and has some advantages over a flesh eating one. The advantages cannot be swept away. Btw, do you have any position statement that says African poor would benefit more if they were omniverous and not vegetarian? You do know that meat protein is much more expensive than plant protein, don`t you? With the same amount of funding used to purchase callorie recourses to feed the poor, it would mean less people being fed. What do you say to those that get nothing? You could purchase far more plant protein and callories by staying green and therefore feed more people. The world already knows that. That is why food assistance does not come in meat form. It is impractical and would be ineficient to do so. More would suffer if the fixed amount of funds were to be diverted to meat protein.

Do you have any data to back up that starving africans would be better off on a vegetarian diet? (taking into consideration these people suffer regular water shortages, don't have a large variety of crops, and don't have pills to supliment their diets and so forth)

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 18:02
You cannot deny though that beef is an excellant source of protein.

I don`t deny that at all. However, a plant based source of protein offers health advantages over a flesh source. In addition, meat callories are costlier, not only to our wallets, but also to the environment.

Converting callories from plant to meat adds a step in the process of production. Going directly from plant to human consumption cuts that uneeded step out.

The extra land needed to grow more feed for animals hurts the environment, encrouching already on little spare land that we have left. The extra water for irrigation of those large plots of grain destined for livestock puts a serious strain on water recourses (there are fears that the next large wars in the future may not be ideological or political, but rather "water wars"). Animal waste leaking into the water table has also been known to contaminate water sources for human use. Flatulance caused by cattle is being viewed as a large source for methane which is damaging our admosphere. In addition, transporting livestock from one station to the other as it is produced uses oil recourses along with the extra oil recourses used in transporting and cultivating the grain to support them.

Sure, if meat were discontinued a rise in human consumption of plant life would rise and that would cause an increase in production and consumption, but it would be a net decrease from the high of what it is in supporting livestock -- why??? -- because of the economics of value added by adding a step to the product (i.e. callories/protein).


My point in this though is the subject/controversy of raising children on vegan diets.

I thought we were talking about a vegetarian diet, weren`t we? Perhaps I am wrong, but I think this is the first time I have seen you bring up vegan. But, I will say a vegan diet while can be healthy, too, and offers some advantages, will require more diligence as one adheres to it. Diligence however, is not a negative thing if it increases awareness and attention to detail. But, remember Toqis, the title of the thread is addressing "vegetarianism" as the main subject matter. You might want to start a thread on "veganism" if you want to discuss that. I probably won`t enter the discussion though, simply because I am a vegetarian (though I am moving toward a vegan lifestyle).


Their statistics [from American Dietetics Association] seem good, but there is no harm in gaining other viewpoints or sources into this debate.

You are quite right. However, I do feel it necessary to point out the flaws or quite possible and very plausible flaws in those other views when they are present.

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 18:04
If those vegetarians sponsoring the research were the agribusinesses with large fields of brocali for selling to the market, then you would be and should be suspicious/skeptical of those findings. I would be and I wouldn`t fault you for being so. Vegetarian research however are not done by people with silo fulls of grain and fields of brocali.
When a multi-billion dollar international industry with large lobbying power is funding research for its product, one should take it with a pinch of salt until that research is peer reviewed by a well reputed independent org made up of professionals in that field.

So you are only suspicious of people selling things then? Vegetarian organisations trying to pull people into their way of diet is no different than vicars and priests preaching to the unconverted to try and get them into their churches or religeon- neither are trying to sell anything, but both could be questioned for biased properganda or whatever.
If the vegan associating of the UK suddenly started farming crops would you start to take their teachings with a pinch of salt?

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 18:21
I don`t deny that at all. However, a plant based source of protein offers health advantages over a flesh source. In addition, meat callories are costlier, not only to our wallets, but also to the environment.
Converting callories from plant to meat adds a step in the process of production. Going directly from plant to human consumption cuts that uneeded step out.


[QUOTE=strongvoicesforward]The extra land needed to grow more feed for animals hurts the environment, encrouching already on little spare land that we have left.

Farming grazing animals at least keeps the feilds intact. Would you prefer people kept the fields nice with dozens of varieties of grasses and wild flowers growing on them, with large hedge boarders, and water troughs for all the animals to drink from- or have them ploughed up into thousands of acres of bleak landscaoe of crops?
Saying than farming grazing animals is worse than farming crops is stupid- go look at the damage crop farming is causing to the enviroment please.



The extra water for irrigation of those large plots of grain destined for livestock puts a serious strain on water recourses (there are fears that the next large wars in the future may not be ideological or political, but rather "water wars").

If we lived soley on crops then there would be even more water irregation. Crops are a far bigger drain on water supplies than animals are.


Animal waste leaking into the water table has also been known to contaminate water sources for human use.

Where do you think all those lovely veggies were grown off? Animal crap and chemicals! Without animal farming to supply the huge quantities of fertiliser, farmers would be forced to resort to using chemicals entirely to feed their crops off- no ****, no veggies.
By eating organic vegetables you are actually supporting animal farming in many senses as to do it you need vast quantities of animal poop which come from the animal farms. By supporting GM veggies you are only supporting farminsg pumping even more chemical fertilisers into the streams and stuff.
Your reasoning is very flawed.



Flatulance caused by cattle is being viewed as a large source for methane which is damaging our admosphere. In addition, transporting livestock from one station to the other as it is produced uses oil recourses along with the extra oil recourses used in transporting and cultivating the grain to support them.

Oh right, so we should just put a cork up all the cows arses or kill them all off? With more crops, the need for lorries/trucks as transportation is vastly increased.



I thought we were talking about a vegetarian diet, weren`t we? Perhaps I am wrong, but I think this is the first time I have seen you bring up vegan. But, I will say a vegan diet while can be healthy, too, and offers some advantages, will require more diligence as one adheres to it. Diligence however, is not a negative thing if it increases awareness and attention to detail. But, remember Toqis, the title of the thread is addressing "vegetarianism" as the main subject matter. You might want to start a thread on "veganism" if you want to discuss that. I probably won`t enter the discussion though, simply because I am a vegetarian (though I am moving toward a vegan lifestyle).

If you want to complain about me adressing vegans in a vegetarian discussion thread then don't talk about them with me.



You are quite right. However, I do feel it necessary to point out the flaws or quite possible and very plausible flaws in those other views when they are present.

And i'm pointing out the flaws in your arguements right now ;) .

Tokis-Phoenix
08-04-06, 18:24
PS: please stop adressing me as "toqis". I would prefer it if you spell it at least half my forum name correctly i.e. "tokis" ;) .
I am going to go out myself in just a moment with some friends, so sorry if do not post for a while.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:12
Do you have any research to back up your claims that feeding meat to starving masses is not practical in comparison to crops in africa?[quote]

Research does not set out to prove a negative.

[quote]Farming animal products is good for the economy just as much as crop growing is-

Farming animals is an inefficient use of recourses.


in places like africa where you cannot be choosey about what you farm, where its more of a case of grab and grow whatever is posible, saying that farming animals is bad because it causes enviromental problems cannot be justified over crop growing because over there they suffer just as many issues as each other.

I do have to ask this, are we talking about vegetarianism in general, or is this just a regional topic now as it concerns vegetarianism? Like I said before, when it is an issue of survival, all things are on the table for consideration.

But, it seems that even in Africa there are African orgs promoting vegetarianism. Do a search and you will find some. I am not going to defend African vegetarianism, let alone push it on those who are starving to death and need to eat anything just to survive.

In general however, producing flesh is inefficient in calorie production and harmful to the environment.


Do you have any data to back up that starving africans would be better off on a vegetarian diet? (taking into consideration these people suffer regular water shortages, don't have a large variety of crops, and don't have pills to supliment their diets and so forth)

Well, if they are starving, they need to eat what is available. Then it is a matter of survival.

Though, it is only common sense that animal livestock would put a greater strain on water sources. If a meat diet has been so helpful to Africans, then why are they still starving? Seems to not be working, if you ask me.

I don`t have the data to support that specifically says Africans would be specifically better off on a vegetarian diet. I don`t know if one exists that is worded as such and if everything is scarce like I have said several times, anything is fare for survival.

However, observations can be made about the data of recourse use and environmental damage from livestock and how that relates to and impacts the world in general. I am not an expert on anomalies and the cases of isolated areas and regions.

I do however have a position paper by the American Dietetics Association with a hundred references stating that vegetarianism offers advantages. Do you have any official papers of repute that are peer reviewed by national orgs that show a flesh diet is better than a vegetarian diet?

It has been my position all along that a vegetarian diet is just as well, and can supply all the nutritional needs of a person and offer advantages. I am not pushing anything on Africa. They have their own vegetarian societies addressing their issues and are more well acquainted with their unique problems than either I or you are. I will let them handle that debate. I am sure they are more capable than me on that issue as it concerns them.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:21
So you are only suspicious of people selling things then? Vegetarian organisations trying to pull people into their way of diet is no different than vicars and priests preaching to the unconverted to try and get them into their churches or religeon-

Sure they are. Research that is testable and peer reviewed with science backs up their claims and those of vicars' and priests' are not. Big difference.


...neither are trying to sell anything, but both could be questioned for biased properganda or whatever.

Both are trying to convince. But, one`s the vegetarian`s convincing is based on research and data. Not the religionists'.


If the vegan associating of the UK suddenly started farming crops would you start to take their teachings with a pinch of salt?

Until they were peer revued and backed up by other research, sure. Why not. Scepticism of claims is healthy. However, if the International Vegetarian Society started farming crops, they are doing so after much of the research has already been laid out for them. It would take new research that uncoverend falsities and errors in past research to make me question their claims.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:26
If we lived soley on crops then there would be even more water irregation. Crops are a far bigger drain on water supplies than animals are.

You are not realizing that it takes more crops to feed animals and therefore the use of water for large amounts of crops would be more taxed. Eliminating farm animals would not see the same proportionate rise or increase in crop production to make up for the loss of flesh.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:40
Where do you think all those lovely veggies were grown off? Animal crap and chemicals! Without animal farming to supply the huge quantities of fertiliser, farmers would be forced to resort to using chemicals entirely to feed their crops off- no ****, no veggies.
By eating organic vegetables you are actually supporting animal farming in many senses as to do it you need vast quantities of animal poop which come from the animal farms. By supporting GM veggies you are only supporting farminsg pumping even more chemical fertilisers into the streams and stuff.
Your reasoning is very flawed.

Animal waste is used. How much that can that be decreased and substituted with other advancements is being addressed. Vegetarianism is not an answer for a Utopian world, that is for sure. However, with animal farming larger amounts of cultivated land is needed to feed the livestock and that makes it necessary to bring even more fertilizer into the environment.

Vegetarianism in the environmental paradigm is not about choosing and having the perfect choice; it is about having the best possible choice.

No, your reasoning is flawed and you are not thinking very deeply on the matter. Just the fact that you think going vegetarian would create a larger strain on the water supply because you think more people eating plant life would mean an increase in plant production, IS WRONG -- because you did not and do not realize that the increase in production from increased human use demand would not surpass the loss of production from lifestock no longer consuming plant life -- hence water and other recourses would be conserved. Why don`t you understand that?

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:51
Oh right, so we should just put a cork up all the cows arses or kill them all off?

Are you trying to build a strawman argument? I don`t think anyone would suggest putting a cork up their arse or just kill them off. I sure wouldn`t. If the world ever goes to a meat free civilization, I am sure it will be one in which animals were bred less and less as production wanes in the face of loss demand. Economics would phase things out slowly.


With more crops, the need for lorries/trucks as transportation is vastly increased.

You are right. 65%~80% of all grain goes to produce livestock. If meat were not being produced there would be the save in fossil fuels from not transporting meat AND grain. If livestock were not in the equation human increase consumption WOULD NOT rise to the same level at that point in time to match the same amount of grain needed by livestock -- let alone surpass it.

Don`t you understand the concept of value added? Could you explain to me what the concept of that phrase means to you and if you understand that with each phase of production to value added, recourses are used to add value? Have you taken an economics course and come across the phrase of "value added"? It is a pretty basic concept in economics.

strongvoicesforward
08-04-06, 19:52
And i'm pointing out the flaws in your arguements right now

We will agree to disagree on that.

Tokis-Phoenix
11-04-06, 15:16
All these questions can be discussed now on the appropriate thread now you have made one, i will follow up your points there.

strongvoicesforward
13-04-06, 18:24
Approximately 100 years ago Japan decided to 'modernize' its eating habits by copying western nations' diets. Until then Hepatitis E (HEV) was unknown in Japan. However, by importing pigs from Britain for consumption that soon changed according to Japan's Health, Labor and Welfare Ministry.


The research group, headed by Shunji Mishiro, director of Toshiba General Hospital's research department, has concluded that the import of British pigs, which started with the government's drive to build a "rich country with a strong army" in the Meiji era (1868-1912), was the cause of the virus' entry. As eating meat became popular among Japanese, HEV spread across the country, the group said. ...

The ratio of pigs carrying the virus is very high, and the group concluded that it is highly probable the pigs brought the virus into the country. With the popularization of meat-eating, the virus became indigenized, the group concluded.-- The Daily Yomiuri newspaper, 13 April, 2006 pg. 3

nurizeko
13-04-06, 23:08
I voted i eat meat.
I wont go into a long explanation as to why, suffice to say i have the entire history of evolution and mother nature and biology behind this.
SCIENCE! :bikkuri:
(sorry....a silly battlecry me and some blokes have...)


Many animals like goats can live on plant matter that we cannot eat but can grow in sparse conditions like grass, and can survive on very little water- which is why goat farming is very popular in africa.

I thought a problem in africa and stuff is goats are eating everything anyway so it all contributes to the vicious cycle.

As for SVF dude, you gotta cut down on the text-floods, burying your opponents in an essay of babbling on isnt helping, its ussually better to get the core of your points across with approproate links pointing to evidence and infomation that is required to validate your position.
In other words one post at a time covering all the things you have to say in response to the post(s) you wish to address, i know you feel like you got alot to say, but im sure most of your concepts are conveyable in one reasonable sized post.

If the Masters students and intellectuals at another forum i visit can do it and still kick anothers ass, im sure we can to.


I have to say, the majority of humanity eating meat is and interesting situation, and the fact this has been going on all of humanities existance, and the omni/carnivore species before it.

strongvoicesforward
02-05-06, 17:31
I voted i eat meat.
I wont go into a long explanation as to why, suffice to say i have the entire history of evolution and mother nature and biology behind this.

Always good to put a little discipline on natural behaviour if that behavior results in degradation of environment and cruelty. In addition, it`s beneficial to choose something over something else when studies have shown that an alternative can meet all the traditional needs and offer benefits.


SCIENCE!
(sorry....a silly battlecry me and some blokes have...)

Yes, science is good. It is even better when harnessed with compassion and choosing the best choices it points out. Even Hitler wanted to use science for eugenics -- but I don`t think that was very compassionate.


I thought a problem in africa and stuff is goats are eating everything anyway so it all contributes to the vicious cycle.

Then goats shouldn`t be raised and exploited if it is damaging the natural fauna and wildlife. Just what are you thinking?


As for SVF dude, you gotta cut down on the text-floods, burying your opponents in an essay of babbling on isnt helping, its ussually better to get the core of your points across with approproate links pointing to evidence and infomation that is required to validate your position.
In other words one post at a time covering all the things you have to say in response to the post(s) you wish to address, i know you feel like you got alot to say, but im sure most of your concepts are conveyable in one reasonable sized post.
If the Masters students and intellectuals at another forum i visit can do it and still kick anothers ass, im sure we can to.

I`ve addressed this personal note HERE (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=341452#post341452) to keep the thread from going off.


I have to say, the majority of humanity eating meat is and interesting situation, and the fact this has been going on all of humanities existance, and the omni/carnivore species before it.

Yes, interesting. And, bears and wolves and mountain lions defacate in the forest, too. We, when given the choice as we civilize more and more, alter our natural actions. The large portion of our recorded history has also seen slavery for the benefit of the oppressor -- however, I don`t find that interesting bit of fact is a reason to keep doing it just because of a long tradition of it.

strongvoicesforward
30-05-06, 07:34
Singer and songwriter artist, Prince, has been voted "Sexiest Vegetarian" in Peta`s annual voting contest for the title.

Prince, a strict vegan, recently quoted Ghandi in a line that he closed his new album "3121" with. Taking a little artistic freedom in spelling style, he quotes Ghandi:


"2 my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being."

Compassion is a melodious note to the ear. Ghandi makes it into Western music with his thought for animals on that point. The message spreads a little more.

Slowly slowly, the water flows from mountain top, to stream, to river, to sea. It will get there. Just takes time. Yes...in due time, in due time.

Revenant
30-05-06, 09:31
I have taken on a vegan diet, simply for environmental reasons. I am not opposed to killing animals for meat, but most of the meat and dairy we consume is a waste of resources (free range ranches, farms, etc, on agriculturally unviable land isn't such a waste of land, after that it might simply depend on how they dispose of waste, etc), in a time when we are outcompeting other species, and just starting to feel the effects of our choices.

I'd go for fish, were we also not overfishing our seas. A vegan diet with algae based vitamin B12 and DHA supplements seems to fulfill all that an animal diet would. I'll wait and see how I feel a few months down the road, but so far, I feel a bit better than I was when consuming all that meat. If I just don't feel good after a few months (my diet is nutritionally quite sound, after a lot of tinkering on Nutritiondata.com <-- an incredible site, adding up food nutrients, comparing food, and finding the best sources of certain nutrients), I'll perhaps try adding in bits of omega-3 and vitamin B12 rich fish a couple times a week, or something.

strongvoicesforward
30-05-06, 16:20
That`s great, Revenant! Glad to hear that.

Surprised you are starting off with a vegan diet. Most people start vegetarian and then move to a vegan diet.

What you said is true:

...most of the meat and dairy we consume is a waste of resources (free range ranches, farms, etc, on agriculturally unviable land isn't such a waste of land, after that it might simply depend on how they dispose of waste, etc), in a time when we are outcompeting other species, and just starting to feel the effects of our choices.

and


I feel a bit better than I was when consuming all that meat.

I do, too.

btw, were you following the thread, "Vegetarianism for the environment"?

Revenant
30-05-06, 18:04
btw, were you following the thread, "Vegetarianism for the environment"?Only looked once briefly, although I'd like to get in there and perhaps collect some data for anyone who asks why I decided to go vegan.

strongvoicesforward
01-06-06, 16:09
As already noted elsewhere in another thread, the main reasons to choose a vegetarian diet are:

1. Moral

2. health

3. Environmental

My reason is based on moral. For me, I would liken that to the bricks in a wall. Health and evironmental reasons would be the mortar that connects the bricks.

Revenant on the otherhand, as seen from his post above, has decided that his reason to go vegan is based on "environmental" considerations. I would only hope that moral and health reasons, based on buddhist teachings which Revenant to my memory seems to be a follower of, would also find their way into his view on the topic as mortar between his bricks.

Whatever the reason for going vegetarian/vegan one may have -- I am not too concerned about. In the end, the decision to choose one of those diets will mean less demand for a product that causes suffering. I personally would not care why someone has decided not to cause me suffering -- I would just be appreciative of the fact that suffering is not my lot due to the actions of others.

Knowing all three reasons are valid though, does help one to know that the choice to not eat flesh is indeed the right one.

Revenant
15-06-06, 19:16
I am not Buddhist, I do agree with a lot of it's ideas though, and especially the training of the mind via meditation, and the existentialism it promotes.

Here's an article I came across on the health of taking on a vegan or vegetarian diet. (http://health.msn.com/dietnutrition/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100098779)
Heart benefits. Numerous studies have shown that a vegetarian diet lowers blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood lipid (fat) levels. That adds up to a lower risk for heart disease. The one problem might be for vegetarians who don't eat fish, because they're missing out on the best source of omega-3 fats, which have a variety of benefits for the heart. (http://www.detoxyourworld.com/acatalog/omega_zen.html) Flax and walnuts contain a version of omega-3s that may make up for the lack of fish, but it's hard to imagine they could do it completely.
Vitamin B12. Dairy foods and eggs are good sources, so many vegetarians get plenty of vitamin B12. The stricter vegan diet, which doesn't include any animal-based foods, could theoretically lead to a shortage of B12. (http://www.veganstore.com/index-store.html?deptid=17152&parentid=72&stocknumber=644&page=1&itemsperpage=12) The vitamin is added to several brands of breakfast cereal (Total, for example) as well as some brands of soy milk. Note, though, that many "natural" health-food cereals are not fortified with any vitamins, including B12.Underlined are links. Nutritionally going vegan isn't a problem so long as one gets their vitamin B12. Getting Omega-3 would just be a bonus for most people, as most westerners don't eat enough Omega-3 rich fish.

strongvoicesforward
16-06-06, 14:16
I am not Buddhist, I do agree with a lot of it's ideas though, and especially the training of the mind via meditation, and the existentialism it promotes.

That is what I was referring to. Wasn`t 100% sure if you were actually Buddhist, just recall you citing Buddhism and the Dalai Lama on several occassions.

btw, I read those MH articles, too, a while back.

monrepo
21-06-06, 14:13
No, I'm not.

Duo
03-09-06, 20:24
If I had a strong desire to eat some form of meat, then perhaps I would feel compelled to eat mussels or oysters. But I do not have that feeling to consume meat to optimally sustain myself. In fact, since I have become a vegetarian I feel more healthy/energetic.
I do think that there is a significant number of vegetarians who eat shell fish of some kinds. Some follow a general rule that if it has eyes or a brain, then they won`t eat it (I have not adopted that rule).
Yes, animals are killled in the production of plant food for human consumption. It would be illogical to assume one could live a life on Earth without causing no harm to something. It happens -- just as one walking on the ground undoubtedly kills insects. If one were to try to avoid all nonintentional death caused by their action, they would be imobile in a room and verily forfeit their life. That is a neurotic answer to the desire to not cause suffering.
Vegetarianism is not about leading the perfect life of not harming anything through consumption -- it is about choosing the least of the harms that exist and still being able to live a modern lifestyle.
We most definitely need fruits and vegetables to survive. The same cannot be said of meat. Therefore, one could never choose to keep a modern lifestyle but then consume nothing but mussels and oysters and to insure that those that are consumed were not farmed in a negative impact on the environment, choose to roam the shoreline and harvest ones own.
I may also suggest that the farming of mussels and oysters in natural bodies of water impact negatively on the aquatic life in those vicinities. There is most definitely displacement.
I think vegetarianism is a luxury of western world individuals. I'd like to see the trend spread to developing nations and see if it is such a choice of a lifestyle. In my view you can't live a modern lifestyle without meat either. What do you do when you are sick? Instead of chicken soup what is there to be taken, celery soup?? And how about very young children that need protein to grow or feeble persons, meat is essential and saying otherwise is false in my view. However, if a vegetarian puts for the idea that he/she dont like meat and would rather prefer a diet on vegtables and fruit that is fine. However, to make it seem that vegetables are more important than meat is misleading.

strongvoicesforward
05-09-06, 06:40
Hi, Duo.


I think vegetarianism is a luxury of western world individuals. I'd like to see the trend spread to developing nations and see if it is such a choice of a lifestyle.

A quick look and it was rather easy to find vegetarian movements/societies in developing nations. If I were to spend more time on it I am sure I could find more. Keep in mind, India still has a lot of poverty and many poor Hindi and Jans are vegetarian.

One thing I did notice, though, during the search, is that most vegetarian societies in places such as Africa do not have the funds to actively promote the practice, such as an org like Peta here in the West. Most of these vegetarian societies just have addresses or tel #s, so I am assuming they cannot even afford internet connection or homepage construction, but some do have e-mail addresses.

Here are a few:

VEGETARIAN SOCIETY OF KENYA
Kaushik Kothary, P O Box 43414 , NAIROBI , Kenya

VEGETARIAN ORGANISATION MAURITIUS
C/o Edge Communication , PO Box 252 , CUREPIPE , Mauritius
Ph: +230 674 8000 / Fax: +230 676 7700 .
WEBSITE AVAILABLE HERE. (http://in.geocities.com/vegorgmu/)

NIGERIA VEGETARIAN SOCIETY
Emmanuel Eyoh, Suite 19,Clemco Plaza 22,Latif Salami St , International Airport Rd, Ajao Estate , LAGOS , Nigeria
Ph: +234 803 722 6279 .
Email: [email protected]@yahoo.com

NIGERIAN VEGETARIAN EDUCATION NETWORK
Robert Maduka, P O Box 489 , ORLU , Imo state , Nigeria

S.O.U.L. VEGETARIAN SOCIETY
142 St Michael's Road , East Street , ABA , Imo State , Nigeria

Some others and their dates of formation listed here on the International Vegetarian Union are:

1960 - Nigerian Vegetarian Society
1960 - West African Vegetarian Society
1979 - Egyptian Vegetarians
1979 - South African Vegetarian Union
1982 - Pan African Vegetarian Union
1997 - Vegetarian Society of Botswana
2001 - L'Alliance Vegetarienne Congo
2002 - Vegetarian Society of Uganda
2002 - Vegetarian Society of Ghana
2002 - The Zambia Society of Vegetarians


In my view you can't live a modern lifestyle without meat either.

I am not sure why you would say that. The fact that vegetarians exist in the modern world holding corporate jobs, competing at high levels of sports, making up to perhaps as high as 5~10% of the U.S. population clearly shows that they can. The news sure isn`t rife with vegetarians keeling over after a few weeks into their new eating habits, is it?


What do you do when you are sick? Instead of chicken soup what is there to be taken, celery soup??

That`s the point, we vegetarians don`t get sick! ;-) Just kidding. Honestly, though, my colds are much more infrequent and much less severe, not hanging around as long as they did compared to when I consumed flesh. But, tomato soup, onion soup, or brocali soup do quite well with helping with colds.


And how about very young children that need protein to grow or feeble persons, meat is essential and saying otherwise is false in my view.

Perhaps the American Dietetic Association, the largest association of nutritiona professionals in the world, and their formal position on vegetarianism could change your view somewhat. In their position paper on the topic which is supported by over a hundred references to research from such places as the USDA, AMA, numerous universities, etc... they clearly state that children and adults can lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, and that such a diet offers benefits.


Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer. ...

The United States Dietary Guidelines (23) state, "Vegetarian diets can be consistent with the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, and meet Recommended Dietary Allowances for nutrients."

LINK TO ORIGINAL SOURCE (http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ada/hs.xsl/advocacy_adar1002b_ENU_HTML.htm)




However, if a vegetarian puts for the idea that he/she dont like meat and would rather prefer a diet on vegtables and fruit that is fine. However, to make it seem that vegetables are more important than meat is misleading.

The truth of the matter stands for itself: In this modern world, one can live healthily on a diet consisting of nothing but plant life. The same cannot be said of meat.

Duo
06-09-06, 04:55
That doesn't make meat any less essential than vegtables. Our body and our nature is to have the ability to intake both plants and meat. This is undeniable. True an exess of meat can cause several health problems, as can an exess of the same kind of vegetable or fruit. There are many benefits to our bodies that come from meat. For example fish contains phosphorous that stimulates brain growth and is advised by doctors to be taken by mothers during their pregnancy. Meat is very good source of proteins, especially when the body is lacking condition and needs a fast revitalization. Most of the dietary experts say that a balanced diet is the best. Vegetarians put an interesting spin on the dietary condition of our society, espeically in the US. When you are a vegetarian you are more careful at what you eat, ie you also tend to avoid junk foods and other such preservative filled intakes. Then data is collected and obviously vegetarians will appear in better condition than some. And then they will say well the difference is that we are vegetarians and the rest eat meat, when in fact their health problems could come from greasy foods ie pizza, potato chips, over intake of sodas and what not.

In the mediterrenean people seem to be perfectly well living with a diet of both meat and vegtables. In fact in Italy we see some of the highest life expetancy rates from people who have eaten the same kind of diet for ages, incuding both meat and vegies. And furthemore, in North America most of the veggies are gm...i don't know that I wouldn't trust gm foods by having a diet made up exlusively of them.

strongvoicesforward
06-09-06, 06:22
Duo, do you mind if we move this over to the thread Maciamo created, Are you a vegeatarian? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3232)? We seem to be discussing the general issue of "vegetarianism" rather than "mulluscs" or "if vegetarians eat mulloscs or not."

----------------------------------------------------------

Also, Maciamo, in your OP you made the statement:



This may be true for the conventional meat like beef and pork, but not for fish, who do not really suffer when dying (research have shown that their brain is not developed enough to feel pain).

I want to reply with "fish do feel pain" but am not sure if I should make a seperate thread to defend "why they do so", or let this thread evolve to include that. If I do it in this thread it will be a little off-topic but since you brought it up in the OP I thought that it may be acceptable here, as well.

Let me know. If I don`t get a reply from you on where I could place it, I will do so on my own and then if you think it should be in a better place, then you can re-locate it. -- Thanks.

strongvoicesforward
18-09-06, 14:36
Hi Duo,

Thanks for moving that over. Sorry I haven`t had a chance to reply. I`ve been busy lately and may stay so for the next week or two. If I get some time I will pop in and continue the discussion. Thanks. -- SVF

Kivanch K
02-08-09, 23:33
I was a vegetarian for 3 years...

LeBrok
20-11-09, 20:57
In the mediterrenean people seem to be perfectly well living with a diet of both meat and vegtables. In fact in Italy we see some of the highest life expetancy rates from people who have eaten the same kind of diet for ages, incuding both meat and vegies. And furthemore, in North America most of the veggies are gm...i don't know that I wouldn't trust gm foods by having a diet made up exlusively of them.


Exactly, we are genetically like our ancestors. Our ancestors lived in certain regions for thousands of years, and evolved to make the best form foods native to their region. We are generally the healthiest if we consume the food groups of our ancestor’s diet, but always with moderation.
The extreme example of this is Eskimo’s diet of fresh liver. This was the only substantial source for vitamins and minerals if you lived there. If there were ever vegetarian Eskimo, they died long time ago and their kids too. Through thousands years of evolution, all Eskimo or Inuit people love taste of fresh, warm liver.


Try to be a vegan for more than 10 years without vitamin B12 supplement, most likely few others. You’ll start falling apart and die prematurely. This is how superior and healthy strict vegan diet is! For most of us omnivores no supplements are necessary for long and healthy lives, but remember about moderation. And if you use sun block and live in Northern latitude take vitamin D3 pills.

Maciamo
21-11-09, 12:34
Exactly, we are genetically like our ancestors. Our ancestors lived in certain regions for thousands of years, and evolved to make the best form foods native to their region. We are generally the healthiest if we consume the food groups of our ancestor’s diet, but always with moderation.


I agree. Our ancestors were primarily hunters (rather than gatherers) for almost as long they they walked up straight. Cro-Magnons painted hunting scenes (bisons, horses, deer...) not gathering scenes. They were meat eaters, who complemented their diet with the occasional fruits in season.
Let's not forget two essential differences between the Ice Age (which had alreday started when Homo Sapiens appeared 100,000 years ago and ended only 10,000 years ago) and now :

1) big mammals were much more common during the Ice Age than now. Many of these species are now extinct, like the mammoth, the auroch or the tarpan. Gazelles, elephants, lions and other animals now confined to sub-Saharan Africa could be found in the Middle East, North Africa and southern Europe even after the Ice Age, until the antiquity. Bears and wolves were quite common until a few centuries ago because there was enough game to feed them. During the Ice Age, humans would have been just one of the carnivorous predators among a plenitude of big game. It was a very different world.

2) Most fruits and vegetables that are now common in our diet either did not exist yet, or were confined to a small region of the world. Before the widespread use of agriculture a few thousands years ago, cereals and vegetables were virtually absent from human diet. Many were developed through cross-breeding and selective breeding, like most cabbages and cereals.

We now eat bananas, mangos, lychees or Sharon fruits as if they had always been there, but only a few decades ago such tropical fruits were almost impossible to find in Europe. Many people assume that apples, pears, peaches, oranges, plums or cherries are the true native fruits of Europe that Cro-Magnons could have picked up in trees when they were hungry. Too bad, there weren't any for most of them. Apples and cherries both originated in Anatolia, and were not widespread around Europe until Roman times. Peaches and apricots both originated in China, while oranges came from Southeast Asia. They only reached Europe in historical times. As for pears and plums, the varieties we know today are recent artificially cross-bred species. Gages for example were developed from a tiny wild plum in 16th-century France.

The only fruits that prehistoric Europeans would have eaten are nuts and berries (though not the huge modern strawberries but the wild variety no larger than a raspberry). In winter, their diet would have been almost exclusively meat.

Our bodies are not designed by evolution to eat the fruits and vegetables we eat nowadays. We are carnivores who became omnivorous due to the recent invention of agriculture, and the even more recent spread of fruit and vegetable varieties across continents. Many human allergies are caused by plants, pollens, cereals (gluten allergy) and fruits (e.g. peanut allergy), not meat (except some seafood, which our ancestors didn't eat).

S-K
30-11-09, 03:01
Iam not a vegetarian, but there are moments that iam considering....

Neander
15-02-10, 10:20
I started with Paleolithic food last year, and I think it is best diet for human.

Here are some links:

http://www.paleodiet.com/

Shasta
23-03-10, 01:45
Great web sight! That is the diet I also follow. I began eating a paleo/ primal diet a couple years ago for heart disease prevention. The reason being, a cardiologist I follow, that has had success reversing plaque growth in some of his patients, recommends a low carb version of the paleo diet.

Gwyllgi
23-03-10, 09:22
Hrm, ..

I’m a strict vegetarian, though I do delegate the responsibility ……

Starship
23-03-10, 11:48
Hrm, ..

I’m a strict vegetarian, though I do delegate the responsibility ……


Do you take vitamin b12?

Gwyllgi
23-03-10, 12:33
Do you take vitamin b12?



Only insofar as the things that I munch on and that I have delegated my vegan diet to have it in their flesh! :rolleyes2:

(You'll need to get used to my warped and at times rather disturbed {not to mention disturbing} way of thinking!) :confused2:

Starship
23-03-10, 13:38
I take one b12 a day since becoming a veggie but for the life of me I cant remember why!
O it's for that thing,
you know,
the whatchama call it ?

O Yeah my memory,
they work great:grin:

Michael Folkesson
24-03-10, 18:31
Starship

I don't feel a need to have supplements though. I get my whole daily need of B12 from milk and egg products, but I am by birth forgetful.

Starship
25-03-10, 11:14
Starship

I don't feel a need to have supplements though. I get my whole daily need of B12 from milk and egg products, but I am by birth forgetful.


I didn't know milk and egg products were enough I thought the B12 supplement came from meat by product, have I been wasting my money on these bloody tablets so?.

I only started taking them after reading an article in a paper discussing vegetarian diet, should it only be taken by Vegans then?

Michael Folkesson
26-03-10, 02:18
No, I don't think you are wasting money to be safe. Your diet might not cover your daily need. But milk and egg contains b12. I drink about 5 dl milk a day, and eat egg products.

elghund
26-03-10, 04:39
Go, Meat! :good_job:

Smertrius
27-03-10, 20:20
Vegetarian diet is nothing else than a consequence of anthropomorphism applied to food.

Minty
28-03-10, 02:20
As I am quite thin, people think I don't eat meat, but I know plenty of people who eat meat that are quite thin.

LeBrok
28-03-10, 02:48
Go, Meat! :good_job:

Go meat and liver! ...and throw in some tripes too. :laughing:

Starship
29-03-10, 10:45
Go meat and liver! ...and throw in some tripes too. :laughing:

You monster:83:

Gwyllgi
29-03-10, 11:25
Go meat and liver! ...and throw in some tripes too. :laughing:

That’s simply offal :innocent:

SQU
14-05-10, 22:44
i eat whatever comes in my mind>>>
i dont hate eating whether vegetables or meat

Matiasu
21-05-10, 22:28
I'm not a vegetarian, but I do have some guilt when it comes to eating meat.
Especially chicken, there's so little meat on chickens that it feels like wasted kills.

star_nicole
05-07-10, 11:46
All my life, I've hated vegtables and lived on meat & potatoes.
Most of the time I live on junk food and soda which cost me all my teeth ! Old age and married life are causing me to change my ways though.

Frank

LOL! somehow you need to eat vegetables, if not you will die yound :)

coolman
15-07-10, 23:43
being a vegetarian is not all that good,not enough protein

Aristander
27-09-10, 02:46
I am 100% in agreement with Maciamo, we are humans because we eat meat. If our ancestors 2 or 3 million years ago had not left the trees and started scavenging meat for food, our big brains would not have developed and we'd still be in the trees with the Gorillas, Chimpanzees and Orangutans.

LeBrok
27-09-10, 04:02
A tid bit from Barzilai, longevity study, peaople 100 years or older:

“Then we say, ‘OK, tell us really the truth. You ate yogurt your whole life. You were a vegetarian’. But the interesting thing is, we have only 2 percent vegetarians. We have none who exercised regularly, and 30 percent were overweight or obese back in the 1950s, when not that many people were overweight or obese. "

LeBrok
27-09-10, 04:23
I am 100% in agreement with Maciamo, we are humans because we eat meat. If our ancestors 2 or 3 million years ago had not left the trees and started scavenging meat for food, our big brains would not have developed and we'd still be in the trees with the Gorillas, Chimpanzees and Orangutans.
Amen brother. If not our taste for meat our civilization wouldn't exist and also vegetarinas fassing about killing animals and eating meat. They still would live on trees eating bananas and mangous.....hmmm....maybe this is where they should be? :grin:

Carlitos
27-09-10, 23:58
I'm not vegetarian, the dead flesh I'm not crazy, I prefer being alive, although I would like to arrive the day that did not have to kill animals to eat them, a utopia for the moment.

blue sky
15-10-10, 06:05
No, I am not vegetarian. In fact, I am a carnivore. I only eat meat and do not like veges.

Starship
15-10-10, 17:00
When you compare the carcass of a dead animal and carcass of a dead human and look at the limbs, legs, the ribs internal organs and you say to yourself I think therefore I am, they don't think therefore they are not. I could never get away from the uneasy whisper at the back of my mind, cannibal, its only a personal voice one I have fortunately silenced.

Starship
15-10-10, 17:04
O and yeah before you say it, I hear loads of other voices to (Kill them, Kill them all) fortunately I manage to ignore most of them to:grin:

LeBrok
16-10-10, 04:40
Life on earth is a huge recycling bin. :shocked: :laughing:

Aristander
16-10-10, 05:39
The American animal protection organization PETA would really prefer us all to go back into the trees and live like our great ape ancestors.
For those of you who aren't familiar with the organization the acronym stands for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
I prefer People Eating Tasty Animals :grin:

Carlitos
16-10-10, 14:58
Peta organization should try the burgers of bull calves, excellent!

Starship
18-10-10, 11:54
This is to LeBrok, Aristander and Caritos, Im just curios lads would you eat human meat?

Now Im not talking a hand or a leg and Im not talking if you don't eat it you'll starve to death, Im not talking rugby players in the Andes mountains. No I mean if you were brought to a table and on it were a selection of dishes. Meat balls covered in batter and deep fried served up with a side salad and a glass of beer, on one plate chicken, another cow on another pig and finally one more labeled human.

Would you eat it and if not why?:innocent:

Carlitos
18-10-10, 14:53
Yes as human flesh, I know in other countries, but in Spain when it comes to eat "anything human" we mean human eat it apart from the teeth.

Eat, eat human flesh really do not want, in fact I hate lamb because I think it should be as similar to human flesh, which I prefer to suck for lunch.

dmdiannemorales
24-11-10, 05:02
I was a vegetarian before. Now I realize, meat is good. :_)

LeBrok
24-11-10, 06:18
Oh, a convert, yes, yes, yes!
Welcome to the club Dianne.

Starship
26-11-10, 17:49
Come on LeBrok answer the question would you eat human meat?

LeBrok
26-11-10, 18:55
I was never served human meat so I don't know if I like it or not. If it was traditional to eat human meat and it tastes good, I would. At this point probably I wouldn't be able to swallow this meat, from psychological factors, I'm chocking when swallowing small medical pills lol.
If I was starving and this was the only food, then no doubt, yes I would it human meat.
Scientifically speaking, the nutritional value of human meat must be comparable to beef and pork, so there is no health hazard eating it.
For social, political and moral reasons, eating human flash should be forbidden.

Sorry don't have time to write anything better at the moment, have to run.
Later

^ lynx ^
27-11-10, 02:09
I am an omnivore and I am not planning on changing that status, thanks. Specially taking into account the rich gastronomy that multiculturalism is bringing to us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwpNQWrD8PY

Greetings.

keyoghettson
27-11-10, 03:51
I don't think it's wrong to eat meat but I think it's better for the environment if we try to eat less meat. I don't like meat so for me it's not a problem.

LeBrok
27-11-10, 04:04
I don't think it's wrong to eat vegetables too, but it's better for environment if you don't. Did you try to become breatharian? ;)
http://www.breatharian.com/wileybrooks.html
Gaia will be happy if you do.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 16:25
Vegan is the closest to my diet, but I am actually fruitarian.

Cimmerianbloke
20-06-11, 05:15
Hitler was evil
Hitler was vegetarian
Vegetarians are evil...

;-)

clark85
13-01-12, 10:52
I am, at least most of the time.

hope
16-03-12, 17:25
I have been a vegetarian all my life, I have never liked the idea of meat. It`s not because of religion rather that I could never get past the fact that I viewed it as a "dead thing" on my plate! I haven`t suffered any effects good or bad because of being vegetarian. However I like dairy produce like yoghurts, cheese and milk of course.
I don`t have any problems with anyone who isn`t vegetarian, it`s just a personal choice for me:)

Franco
21-03-12, 03:00
I'm not vegetarian because the human being is omnivorous by nature so in some way vegetarian diet might not be fully healthy. Furthermore the existence of coeliac people probably means that the human being's body is better suited to processing meat than vegetals. If I'm not mistaken vegetarians don't even eat eggs, which could be the perfect suplement for they protein lacking diet. If we all were vegetarians those animals that are not eaten by human beings would end up being killed by other predators with lower position in the food chain anyways, so why not using them. In some way that they serve for human food gives them more dignity.

Nugget
12-04-12, 03:31
Hi Marc,

Veganism seems more to be a caprice than a reasonable choice, since it is not healthy for human to live with low protein diets or avoid any animal products.

But I understand why vegetarianism is popular. It's not good either to eat only meat (you know like having a beefsteak for breakfast). Balance is the most important. If someone doesn't eat meat then they should eat a lot of dairy products, eggs, beans, etc.

I personnaly stopped eating beef in (or from) developped countries since the mad cow disease. I know there has been no cases in the US or Australia yet, but even if there was I think Americans would try hard to conceal it to preserve their economy. What's more there's been cases in Canada and when I came to Japan everybody was sure it would never happen to Japanese beef ; one month later, the first BSE case was found - and there has been several cases in all the country since then. As cows in Hokkaido and Chiba aren't related, it means there was already BSE before, maybe for several years, but that nobody had tested it or discovered it (even when tested, it's not that easy to trace BSE in a cow. Best proof, a vet commited suicide in Hokkaido for failing to trace it for several years and thus endangering people's life).

As long as I am in Japan, I don't miss beef at all. There is so much fish and seafood that I am content. But in Europe that would be tougher to live without beef at all and just live on pork and chicken. The alternative is kangaroo or emu meat. :blush:

"...reasonable choice..." is a subjective concept. There are plenty of reasons to make the well-thought choice to be a vegetarian (semi or vegan), including health issues, metabolic disorders, concerns over meat safety and quality, environmental issues related to ranching, slaughtering and processing, antibiotic resistance, feed quality, meat hormes and so much more. Additionally having a meat-free diet does not automatically equal low protein since there are many sources of protein from non-meat sources like quinoa. I've been a vegan for twenty-seven years. I am 4th degree blackbelt, run marathons at a decent seven minute mile, road cycle centuries, hike, ski, play tennis...in other words, my vegan diet has not been detrimental to my health. Before committing myself to cancer research I was a Dietitian. There are pros and cons to all dietary choices. it is not our task in life to like the personal choices of others, we should simply respect their choices and embrace our differences.

LeBrok
12-04-12, 08:30
What supplements are you taking in relation to vegan diet, vitamin B12?
Do you have healthy children, and if, are they vegan too?
Do you think that millions of years of our evolutionary past in regards to environment and food, our ancestors consumed, means nothing when arbitrarily picking your diet?
Do you think that parents should respect choices of kids in selecting their own food?
Do you think we should respect a dietary choices of people who love to eat paper kleenexes for example?

Do you know that even our vegetarian relatives, the chimpanzees, hunt other monkeys and eat their meat on monthly bases? They also eat various bugs and ants. It can easily point you that there are not, and shouldn't be, primates of strict vegetarian diet.
Evolutionary science tells us that if being a vegan was and is superior and more beneficial to our health and survival than meat eating in conjunction with other food groups, then a million years everybody would become vegetarian. Well, it never happened, and on contrary, from mostly grazing vegetarians, like chimps, we became hunter-gatherers with big meat appetite.
But I guess, it doesn't mean much to you...

FBS
12-04-12, 14:33
I find it very interesting when vegetarians claim that only meat used to be alive, salad was not a living thing?

Nugget
12-04-12, 16:04
What supplements are you taking in relation to vegan diet, vitamin B12?
Do you have healthy children, and if, are they vegan too?
Do you think that millions of years of our evolutionary past in regards to environment and food, our ancestors consumed, means nothing when arbitrarily picking your diet?
Do you think that parents should respect choices of kids in selecting their own food?
Do you think we should respect a dietary choices of people who love to eat paper kleenexes for example?

Do you know that even our vegetarian relatives, the chimpanzees, hunt other monkeys and eat their meat on monthly bases? They also eat various bugs and ants. It can easily point you that there are not, and shouldn't be, primates of strict vegetarian diet.
Evolutionary science tells us that if being a vegan was and is superior and more beneficial to our health and survival than meat eating in conjunction with other food groups, then a million years everybody would become vegetarian. Well, it never happened, and on contrary, from mostly grazing vegetarians, like chimps, we became hunter-gatherers with big meat appetite.
But I guess, it doesn't mean much to you...

LeBroc, clearly your personal opinions versus open mind are infiltrating your posts, since this is your second response to one of my posts that rambles your beliefs and leaves little room for the personal choices of others. In fact, I have to wonder whether or not you meant to respond to a different post since your response does not relate to my post. Your questions have no relevance to my posting, which was responding to a generalized posed question. I actually said that there are pros and cons to every dietary choice. As I said to you in response to your response to one of my other posts, there is no right or wrong when expressing opinion. There is agree or disagree, but not right or wrong. You label yourself as a citizen of the world, in order to be just that, you have to open your mind to the world, not just your world.

Nugget
12-04-12, 16:06
I find it very interesting when vegetarians claim that only meat used to be alive, salad was not a living thing?

It is intereesting when "life" is given as a reason, since as you said, everything is alive in some way, I guess it is just a quick or simplified response to much more complex personal feelings/beliefs.

hope
12-04-12, 16:07
I find it very interesting when vegetarians claim that only meat used to be alive, salad was not a living thing?

Not in regards to having lungs, heart, brain, blood etc. I think this is the difference some vegetarians like myself would make between meat and lettuce.

LeBrok
12-04-12, 17:39
LeBroc, clearly your personal opinions versus open mind are infiltrating your posts, since this is your second response to one of my posts that rambles your beliefs and leaves little room for the personal choices of others.


As I said to you in response to your response to one of my other posts, there is no right or wrong when expressing opinion. There is agree or disagree, but not right or wrong.

You got me wrong, I'm very much for personal choices, and off course, for free opinion. Just don't tell us that there are no consequences of choices, that choices can't be good or bad, and without consequences to our health, well being, or consequences in social settings (with me not agreeing with your opinion about vegetarian choices).


In fact, I have to wonder whether or not you meant to respond to a different post since your response does not relate to my post. Your questions have no relevance to my posting, which was responding to a generalized posed question.
And yet you responded. :) Too bad you decided not to respond to my legit questions. If not from your point of view, but these are good scientific questions, that explore health consequences, and touche the issue of right and wrong choices.




I actually said that there are pros and cons to every dietary choice.
No argument here. I was arguing that from evolutionary point of view, (and what evolutionary science can tell us), the Vegan choice is wrong. I was also very surprised that as scientists (your claim) you decided to ignore this argument completely?!





LeBroc, clearly your personal opinions versus open mind are infiltrating your posts...
You label yourself as a citizen of the world, in order to be just that, you have to open your mind to the world, not just your world.
Again, your free to your opinion and I'm free to mine, and we both can voice our opinions and have a civilized discussion on any subject, and we should be willing to consider the other point of view (primarily by using constraints of logic). This is tolerance, inclusiveness and open-mindedness, the way the ideas should flow, and I love it. I'm not sure why, oh why, you have this underlying concept that others, and I in particular, have to agree with you and say "yes' to your choices and opinions, and even stop thinking about consequences and science.
Why do you think that a person that expresses her/his opinion cannot be open-minded at the same time???

LeBrok
12-04-12, 17:51
Not in regards to having lungs, heart, brain, blood etc. I think this is the difference some vegetarians like myself would make between meat and lettuce.

I have been a vegetarian all my life, I have never liked the idea of meat. It`s not because of religion rather that I could never get past the fact that I viewed it as a "dead thing" on my plate! I haven`t suffered any effects good or bad because of being vegetarian. However I like dairy produce like yoghurts, cheese and milk of course.
I don`t have any problems with anyone who isn`t vegetarian, it`s just a personal choice for me:)


Hope, you are the most honest vegetarian on this forum. :good_job:

JFWR
18-07-12, 12:08
No. Meat is too damn tasty to give up.

flupke
13-09-12, 10:01
I am an Omnivorous like my ancestors have been for hundreds of thousand years.
Therefore I eat and enjoy meat; but I assume killing other animals.
for me to be veggy or animal right activist is just a new fashion for human beings; we are part of nature let's assume it. We must eat living things to live; nature's law.
That said I abhor unjustified animal slaughter. I also treat my hens very well, until I quickly sacrifice them with respect and gratitude. Then I go and fetch the onions, carrots and leeks I help growing in my garden and end their life by slicing them and boiling them with my hen's body. Then my family gathers and we all thank Nature for letting us eat and live.

LeBrok
13-09-12, 16:30
It actually sounds very romantic. :)
Welcome to Eupedia flupke.

Barrister
15-04-13, 03:02
I have been a vegetarian and vegan at points in the past, for about 1 year each, at a time. It was because gradually i found myself unable to come to terms with factory/industrialized farming methods. And i thought myself unworthy to eat a piece of meat that i had not killed personally. This made me feel cowardly.

Gradually, i found that this diet, did not help my metabolism at all and seemed to make me gain weight surprisingly. Later on i was doing some research and saw the relationship between Type O blood (I'm O-) and cholesterol/heart disease, as well as the relationship between blood type and the quantity of gastric acid produced. My blood pressure was slightly higher eating a vegetarian/vegan diet, because it was filled with whole grains and fruits and vegetables as well as nuts and seeds and did not really do me very well. Now i eat alot of red meat, and greens, and other vegetables and fruits and i feel great on it. Funnily enough, my mother who is a Type A blood, actually prefers eating vegetable/grain matter, and has alot of digestive troubles if she eats meat. This approach seemed sensible to me, and for the past 3-4 years has been working great.

onkarsingh
19-04-13, 17:56
I am pure vegetarian. It is very difficult for me to eat other creatures of our world :( .

LeBrok
20-04-13, 02:04
I am pure vegetarian. It is very difficult for me to eat other creatures of our world :( .
That's ok, more meat for us. :)

Grubbe
19-05-13, 19:35
No, I am not a vegetarian. I have read somewhere that it is difficult to be a vegatian if you have not grown up with it, and that if becoming a vegetarian as an adult, you can have a craving for sugar and sweets. I knew a vegetarian once, who was just "mad" for cakes and ice cream etc., and he was a vegetarian after he grew up, so I suppose there is something to this sugar craving thing. And look at Adolf Hitler, who also became a vegetarian after he turned 40 - he was extremely fond of cream cakes as well.

Gurka atla
14-07-13, 09:19
No but recent movies have made lose appetite on meat

JamesWalker
27-08-13, 10:39
No I am not a vegetarian - never will be one. I just love meet

Cambrius (The Red)
31-08-13, 05:19
I don't eat meat or fish every day. Have tow veggie days per week.

Sile
31-08-13, 21:57
I am 50-50 between meat and vegetables, breaking it down further to,
- meat ( 25% fish 25% meat and poultry, no lamb as I have an allergic reaction to it)
- pasta once a weak
- risotto twice a week

My sister was vegetarian for 15 years and finally got an illness which hospitalized her and she was forced to eat red meat twice a week as other forms ( pills, tablets etc ) did not suffice.

Twilight
31-08-13, 23:20
I'm not a vegetarian, I can't really remember a time when I was picky to tell you the truth. :/