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Fire Haired14
04-06-16, 07:35
The Neolithic Revolution developed among geographically adjacent but genetically distinct populations (http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-07/abstract/35146)

Now we have DNA from Neolithic farmers from Barcin Turkey and Zagros Mountaisn in Iran. They lived 1200 miles apart from each other and were genetically very distinct from each other. The Zagros Neolithic female has affinity to Paleo Caucasians, meaning she's probably descended of locals who learned how to farm. Both distinct Stone age Near Eastern populations migrated into Europe. The farmers from Turkey colonized most of Western and Southern Europe and relatives(maybe farmers) to the Zagros Neolithic woman migrated North into Russia. That's what we know so far.

Abstract:

The shift from hunter-gathering to food production, the so-called Neolithic Revolution, profoundly changed human societies. Whilst much is known about the mode of spread of people and domesticates into Europe during the Neolithic period, the origin of this cultural package in the Ancient Near East and Anatolia is poorly understood. By sequencing the whole genome (1.39x) of an early Neolithic woman from Ganj Dareh, in the Zagros Mountains of Iran, we show that the eastern part of the Ancient Near East was inhabited by a population genetically most similar to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus but distinct from the Neolithic Anatolian people who later brought food production into Europe. Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region. Their high frequency of short runs of homozygosity, comparable to other early Neolithic farmers, suggests that they overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians. Thus, the Neolithic package was developed by at least two genetically-distinct groups which coexisted next to each other, implying a degree of cultural yet little genetic exchange among them.

gyms
04-06-16, 07:48
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arvistro
04-06-16, 08:59
But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes :(((

dodona
04-06-16, 09:16
'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.

Fire Haired14
04-06-16, 09:37
'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.

I call it Turkey because that's what we call the land today. Same reason I call the other ones "Iranian" farmers.

bicicleur
04-06-16, 09:41
this seems logical to me

pulses and cereal farmers descend from the Natufians in the Levant
but these Natufians were not the first people to domesticate animals
first goats and pigs were domesticated some 12000 years ago in the eastern Taunus or northern Zagros Mts
soon after some goat herders moved to Luristan, the Ganj Dareh area
cereal farmers moved into the area not earlier than about 10300 years ago

the affinity to Paleo Caucasian and the presence of Basal Eurasian are interesting new elements though

the abstract doesn't mention any dating of this old neolithic woman
I suppose we'll learn more details after the oral presentation on 7 july
very interesting


I'm very interested in this one too :

http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-07/abstract/36139

Eske Willerslev 1 (http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-07/abstract/36139#affiliation_74870) 2 (http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-07/abstract/36139#affiliation_74869)

Department of Zoology, University of Cambrigde , Cambrigde , UK
The Natural History Museum of Denmark, København K, COPENHAGEN, Denmark



Research involving ancient DNA has experienced a true technological revolution in recent years through advances in the recovery of ancient DNA and, particularly, through applications of high-throughput sequencing. Formerly restricted to the analysis of only limited amounts of genetic information, ancient DNA studies have now progressed to whole-genome sequencing for an increasing number of ancient individuals and extinct species. In this talk I will provide an overview of recent findings done by my group. This concerns what we have learned on early peopling of the Americas, early peopling of Eurasia, and Australia as well the more recent human history of Europe and central Asia. I will also talk about some of our studies related to the population dynamics and extinction of the big bodied mammals (megafauna) around the end of the last Ice Age.

Maciamo
04-06-16, 09:48
That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?

Goga
04-06-16, 13:12
This is what I was saying all the time. Aryans (Kurds & Persians) are closely related to people in the Northern Caucasus.

"Ganj Dareh" is the most southeastern part of Kurdistan. It is actually very close to the Mesopotamia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Fertile_Crescent_7500_BC_DAN.PNG


Like I told you earlier, people (proto-Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau (Kurdish Zagros Mountains) migrated form the Iranian Plateau around the Leyla-Tepe into the Mesopotamia, Maykop and therefore via Maykop indirect into the Yamnaya Horizon. And now we have got even the GENETIC evidence for it.

People (proto-Aryan tribes) from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains moved into the Maykop and were responsible for the rise of the civilization (Kurgans etc). in northern Caucasus. Later on those people moved into the Yamnaya Horizon.

Those were the same people who were responsible for the rise of the Mesopotamian Civilization!

Goga
04-06-16, 13:14
That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?I'm sure they would have lots of Y-DNA hg. R1...

epoch
04-06-16, 14:30
This is what I was saying all the time. Aryans (Kurds & Persians) are closely related to people in the Northern Caucasus.

"Ganj Dareh" is the most southeastern part of Kurdistan. It is actually very close to the Mesopotamia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Fertile_Crescent_7500_BC_DAN.PNG


Like I told you earlier, people (proto-Aryans) from the Iranian Plateau (Kurdish Zagros Mountains) migrated form the Iranian Plateau around the Leyla-Tepe into the Mesopotamia, Maykop and therefore via Maykop indirect into the Yamnaya Horizon. And now we have got even the GENETIC evidence for it.

People (proto-Aryan tribes) from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains moved into the Maykop and were responsible for the rise of the civilization (Kurgans etc). in northern Caucasus. Later on those people moved into the Yamnaya Horizon.

Those were the same people who were responsible for the rise of the Mesopotamian Civilization!

However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:


Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.

Silesian
04-06-16, 15:31
Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-boprzJzw7VQ/VNxU8VTUphI/AAAAAAAAJ7g/2A_cJM6Hirk/s1600/3.jpg


http://oi66.tinypic.com/28bximo.jpg

http://lostraccifojo.altervista.org/joomla/images/stories/prete1/ECTABANA%20QATWAN.jpg

LeBrok
04-06-16, 17:40
But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes :(((They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?

LeBrok
04-06-16, 17:43
That's exactly what most of us was expecting, wasn't it? How else could we explain the Caucaso-Gedrosian (CHG-like) admixture linked to Y-haplogroups J1 and J2 in the Middle East ?
Exactly. We are just learning their historical reach.

Angela
04-06-16, 18:03
They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?

I agree. Farming did develop in those three very widespread areas of the globe, by genetically different people, but the traits necessary for it were probably the same, and the selection for those traits over thousands of years probably followed a similar path.

That said, we've been fooled before by poorly worded abstracts. I want to wait to see the paper and the methodology before I believe that there was absolutely no genetic exchange even at that early date.

Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.

Angela
04-06-16, 18:08
However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states: Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.

Couldn't that just mean that they never moved as a disparate population into Europe and so are not like the ENF? It doesn't mean they couldn't have moved into Europe as part of an admixed group. In other words, they might have formed part of the mix that created the steppe Indo-Europeans.

bicicleur
04-06-16, 18:29
They can't take it through learning, but they can develop set of farming genes through couple of thousands years of evolution into farming. That was done few times independently by Natufians ENF, by East Asians and by Central Americans. This paper claims that farming was developed independently by Zagros HG group. They don't say they took farming from their neighbors, do they?

it doesn't take special genes to become a farmer, at least such genes have never been identified
it takes a different mindset, organised, unlike the opportunisitc hunter (if that ever existed)
that mindset comes gradually, over the generations if your tribe has been living in the right surroundings with the right climate and the right fauna and flora, and if your forefathers have developped the right tools to exploit the fauna or flora
Natufians had sickels and grinders 10.000 year before they started farming
in the swamps south of the lower Yangzi river people had cooking vessels more than 10.000 years before they started to grow rice
domestication of animals was preceded by selective hunting techniques for several 1000 years, except maybe pigs

LeBrok
04-06-16, 19:22
it doesn't take special genes to become a farmer, at least such genes have never been identified
it takes a different mindset, organised, unlike the opportunisitc hunter (if that ever existed)
that mindset comes gradually, over the generations if your tribe has been living in the right surroundings with the right climate and the right fauna and flora, and if your forefathers have developped the right tools to exploit the fauna or floraYou shouldn't have a problem giving us a modern example of hunter gatherer tribe who learned farming by listening and by examples without genetic transfer. Anything of last 500 years of well documented history would be fine. If farming could be learned and obviously is way more beneficial than hunting, you should try to answer this, why they don't get it do it?


Natufians had sickels and grinders 10.000 year before they started farmingWhat was the purpose of the sickle before farming?!

in the swamps south of the lower Yangzi river people had cooking vessels more than 10.000 years before they started to grow riceIs harvesting part of farming?

domestication of animals was preceded by selective hunting techniques for several 1000 years, except maybe pigsNope, domestication of animals was preceded by farmers and their sedentary lifestyle. Also, overproduction of food is necessary to feed the pigs, which only happens in agriculture. You can also prove your point by presenting HG tribe with domesticated animals, and I don't mean pets.

LeBrok
04-06-16, 19:30
I agree. Farming did develop in those three very widespread areas of the globe, by genetically different people, but the traits necessary for it were probably the same, and the selection for those traits over thousands of years probably followed a similar path.

That said, we've been fooled before by poorly worded abstracts. I want to wait to see the paper and the methodology before I believe that there was absolutely no genetic exchange even at that early date.

Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.
You are right. I took what they implied. However they did said, as you noticed, that these populations shared some genetic exchange the "Basal Eurasian". I wish they put a date on the contact. If it was late enough it could mean transfer farmer knowledge, technology and genetics from ENF (Natufians).
Hope we see the paper soon with all the details. Perhaps they have analyzed more that just one woman.

Yetos
04-06-16, 20:25
Another kind of farming,

the maize and the teosinte,

well it is known that was farming, with all characteristics,
they also did selective farming since e known that they choose the kernels to use next year for reproduction,
so central Balsas river valley is another place were farming was developed, away from old world,

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmOcBz03tw9dgpdZRCLlW6WWGroh0Go 6h4BQdx9pWXEDNpw9s5MQ


the same method we know about teonsite and corn, might also used for barley wheat ζεα σικαλις
to be selective evolution of αγανα,

αγανον
if you have dog you know it for sure
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cCknOJoGX_0/UBvgOQWgcrI/AAAAAAAAC0M/yuD72kOosDk/s1600/agana2.jpg


so both cases at old, as at new world, show that early farming was a knowledge of selection that was known to certain clans, and passed through generation knowldge transimission,
even the days when they need to 'reproduce' the 'treasure', even the kind of soil

Irrigation which is the second part of farming, comes much later as a second farming boom,

watching the story of corn at new world, a world that we could observe, with hunter/gatherers, miners, and farmers, and the spread of corn farming,
I think that farming indeed was a treasure that some 'haplo' used to survive and win 'nature's selection' since the knowledge was a secret that passed from progonoi to apogonoi, (elders to youngers, possibly the selection was done by women, since in all ancient religions are known as gift of Δημητρα Cerres etc,)
but that knowledge as most knowldge, one day spreads,

by the above i do not mean that some haplo are blessed with genes for farming, or with scientific selection of reproduction,
but some 'Hg' might evolute different due to some knowledge, or enviroment etc.


PS
teosinte and corn have the same number of chromosomes

Sile
04-06-16, 21:09
'Turkish' farmers is extremely misleading, because there were no Turks in ancient Turkey. Turks originated as well as Mongolians did in the Manchurian-Mongolian Steppe of much later days.

That's correct

But there are people in the forum who will never understand this,..............they think modern national borders and people have been the same since the ancients

Goga
05-06-16, 01:00
However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:

" the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations "


Yeah. First of all, most Europeans have not so much of 'Yamnaya ancestry'.

Secondly, they are talking about "DIRECT" genetic contribution. But there was no direct contribution. Because it was via Yamnaya, so we talk about in-direct contribution, via Maykop/Yamnaya and then some into Europe


People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

MOESAN
05-06-16, 01:08
As bibicleur I don't see (to date) what are the specific "farmers genes". I conceive more easily some convergent evolutions by way-of-life acting and selecting common ancient genes or different genes having the same effect. Farming I think was not born a blessed morning but was the result of long time of observations and hazards and thoughts favoured by specific environments. So I can understand why Hgs were not so attracted by agriculture at first: it was not THEIR proper evolution. Wesee today that individuals transpoed in new environments can change very easily of habits when entire communities stayed in their original environment cannot so easily. Only quickly built opinion.

Goga
05-06-16, 01:10
Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.
Yeah, those from the ancient Mesopotamia and BMAC who called themselves so called "ARYANS'' (Medes, Mitanni, Kassites, Persians etc.) were actually native to and originally from the Zagros Mountains.

But I was talking more about those who migrated into the Maykop/Yamnaya.


In West Asia we can find a lot of ancient R1a* and R1b*. The R1a* to which I do belong is ancestral to R1a in Europe. It is not from the Steppes at all, but native to West Asia. So we can assume and it is actually widely accepted by the 'true' educated scientists (not amateur bloggers) that R1* evolved in West Asia, somewhere around the Iranian Plateau.

So, that's why I'm saying that proto-Aryan people (proto-Kurd/proto-Persians/SUMERIANS???) from the Zagros Mountains in Kurdistan, who invaded the Mesopotamia (Sumerians, Mitanni, Umman Manda, Kassites, Guti etc.), BMAC (Eastern Aryans/proto-Indic people) in southcentral Asia and Maykop/Yamnaya Horizon were actually J2, R1b, and maybe R1a-something, J1-something folks....


R1b around Yamnaya/Maykop was from the Iranian Plateau, since R1b even in Europe is, after more than 4000 years still connected to 'GEDROSIA' component.


"GEDROSIA" in Western Europe has to be from 'somewhere' and I'm sure it is directly from Maykop/Yamnaya and indirectly from the Iranian Plateau and is connected to R1b in Western Europe...


The rest you can see my previous response above this response...

Goga
05-06-16, 01:21
Couldn't that just mean that they never moved as a disparate population into Europe and so are not like the ENF? It doesn't mean they couldn't have moved into Europe as part of an admixed group. In other words, they might have formed part of the mix that created the steppe Indo-Europeans.
Exactly, this was actually the case. Yamnaya folks were already 'hybrid' people. Yamnaya was NOT pure at all. And most Europeans don't even have much of the Yamnaya ancestry.

So some Indo-European speaking people in Europe could have some ancestry (GEDROSIA-component) directly from the Yamnaya, but INdirectly from Zagros Mountains!

Fire Haired14
05-06-16, 04:36
Plus, let's remember that they seem to be implying these people had "Basal Eurasian" admixture, as did the ENF further west. I don't know if one population got it from the other or it was widespread in the whole area, but that is certainly a genetic relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the necessary mutations, upon which selection could operate, were in that "Basal Eurasian" population.

CHG and Anatolia_Neolithic have the same amount of Basal Eurasian, so one couldn't have received Basal Eurasian from the other. There's lots of common ancestry between EEF and CHG that European and Siberian HGs lack but their relationship is still pretty distant. One of our CHG genomes lived 13,000 years ago which long before farming existed, so Basal Eurasian did not expand with farming. I don't think it has a special relationship with farming, besides Basal Eurasian first appearing in Europe with farming.

Fire Haired14
05-06-16, 04:42
People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

There's no need for a migration from the Zagros into Russia, when very similar people lived in the Caucasus mountains just south of Russia. CHG ancestry came into Yamnaya from the Caucasus not Iran.


Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

That's correct.


But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

There were no proto-Kurds in 4000 BC. No modern linguistic group existed back then. Language changes quickly.

holderlin
05-06-16, 08:53
4000 BC proto-Kurds? wtf. in 4000 BC we would probably call it PIE, or some earlier form. And this was on the steppe, to be clear.

"Cultivation" and "farming" in the common tongue, if you will, are separated by evidence of irrigation. So "irrigation" is farming. Does this help us? No.

This is a Teal farmer I believe. And I think we may even find evidence of earlier than Natufian farming in these mountainous regions. It's my own BS drunk theory but the solution of irrigation would most obviously have presented itself in mountainous regions where pristine water sources tended to be cascading downwards from multiple sources.

My drunk stoned vacationed out hypothesis is that we'll see teal farmers all the way to Indus valley. I think these are the Indus farmers.

bicicleur
05-06-16, 09:55
Another kind of farming,

the maize and the teosinte,

well it is known that was farming, with all characteristics,
they also did selective farming since e known that they choose the kernels to use next year for reproduction,
so central Balsas river valley is another place were farming was developed, away from old world,

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmOcBz03tw9dgpdZRCLlW6WWGroh0Go 6h4BQdx9pWXEDNpw9s5MQ


the same method we know about teonsite and corn, might also used for barley wheat ζεα σικαλις
to be selective evolution of αγανα,

αγανον
if you have dog you know it for sure
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cCknOJoGX_0/UBvgOQWgcrI/AAAAAAAAC0M/yuD72kOosDk/s1600/agana2.jpg


so both cases at old, as at new world, show that early farming was a knowledge of selection that was known to certain clans, and passed through generation knowldge transimission,
even the days when they need to 'reproduce' the 'treasure', even the kind of soil

Irrigation which is the second part of farming, comes much later as a second farming boom,

watching the story of corn at new world, a world that we could observe, with hunter/gatherers, miners, and farmers, and the spread of corn farming,
I think that farming indeed was a treasure that some 'haplo' used to survive and win 'nature's selection' since the knowledge was a secret that passed from progonoi to apogonoi, (elders to youngers, possibly the selection was done by women, since in all ancient religions are known as gift of Δημητρα Cerres etc,)
but that knowledge as most knowldge, one day spreads,

by the above i do not mean that some haplo are blessed with genes for farming, or with scientific selection of reproduction,
but some 'Hg' might evolute different due to some knowledge, or enviroment etc.


PS
teosinte and corn have the same number of chromosomes

when and where did above happen?
was it after 13 ka when people arrived in the Peleponesos with obsidian from Melos?
these people also brought nuts and pulses from Anatolia

or is this about another time and place?

P.S. ok, I got it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsas_River#History

Yetos
05-06-16, 10:52
when and where did above happen?
was it after 13 ka when people arrived in the Peleponesos with obsidian from Melos?
these people also brought nuts and pulses from Anatolia

or is this about another time and place?

P.S. ok, I got it :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsas_River#History


it is simple,
today we have exclude the case that Ameridians came from elsewhere, except the Bering sea,
that means that the same Hg pass the ice, inhabit the North America forests,
created miners that exctract the gold conquistadores had found,
and created a farming society at Balsas river,
the difference is that corn of agricultural comunities of S Mexico did not boom, as in Neolithic Europe,
even at 18 century at north america indians, corn culture was unknown, but colonists cultivated it,
they needed to eliminate the buffalos to turn Ameridians to 'modern lifestyle'
although today corn is a product allover American continent and the world,

and only the above is enough to certify me that there is no Hg 'blessed' with farming abilities,
but, considering that even today Balsas river valley produces corn, and a society still trust corn,
I believe that some nations, and tribes (mean some Hg carriers), due to inheritage and diet anex (lactose, cerestrial gluten, casein, green grass, tolerance,) have tense to a kind of living that is connected with farming, or hunters etc.

it is very long way to change our genes to suit with climate,
it is easier to change the climate and the world to our genes,

lactose problem societies would not tend or cow farming,
and since lactose tollerance is inherited by parents to kids,
that society surely will tend not to produce dairy products, i believe that they will find other ways to produce meat, than cow, so expand their economy.

but in 'old world', we see something different,
farming tribes/societies, expand, migrate and travel in seek for irrigated,
so yes,
some Hg that evolute and had the 'technognosia' (know how) of agriculture migrate in search for suitable soil, water, etc,
and as we already said they were apogonoi (sons) of certain families, surely they carry the major HG mark of their ancestors,

so J is not blessed with 'farming genes', but J spread the Demeter's gift to old world, cause possesed the 'know how' via parental/religious guidance, and possible some diet anexations.

Goga
05-06-16, 11:23
There's no need for a migration from the Zagros into Russia, when very similar people lived in the Caucasus mountains just south of Russia. CHG ancestry came into Yamnaya from the Caucasus not Iran.True. CHG ancestry in Yamnaya Horizon came from Caucasus/Maykop. But there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla-Tepe) into the Maykop. There is an archeological evidence for it.



There were no proto-Kurds in 4000 BC. No modern linguistic group existed back then. Language changes quickly.
I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.

Goga
05-06-16, 11:27
4000 BC proto-Kurds? wtf. in 4000 BC we would probably call it PIE, or some earlier form. And this was on the steppe, to be clear.First point: see my previous reaction. Second point: the late PIE that arrived in Europe came from Yamnaya. But what about the early PIE in West Asia??? I mean those who brought 'early' PIE into Yamnaya. It is widely accepted that evolution of PIE occurred in stages. There was 'early' PIE and 'late' PIE..

epoch
05-06-16, 11:40
You shouldn't have a problem giving us a modern example of hunter gatherer tribe who learned farming by listening and by examples without genetic transfer. Anything of last 500 years of well documented history would be fine. If farming could be learned and obviously is way more beneficial than hunting, you should try to answer this, why they don't get it do it?

Papua's most likely.


What was the purpose of the sickle before farming?!
Is harvesting part of farming?

Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication.


Nope, domestication of animals was preceded by farmers and their sedentary lifestyle. Also, overproduction of food is necessary to feed the pigs, which only happens in agriculture. You can also prove your point by presenting HG tribe with domesticated animals, and I don't mean pets.

Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.

My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.

You see this clearly in the DNA results: The later you get into the neolithic the more HG DNA farmers get.

epoch
05-06-16, 11:55
Yeah. First of all, most Europeans have not so much of 'Yamnaya ancestry'.

Secondly, they are talking about "DIRECT" genetic contribution. But there was no direct contribution. Because it was via Yamnaya, so we talk about in-direct contribution, via Maykop/Yamnaya and then some into Europe

Maybe it could still be. However, this pre-announcement doesn't bring it any closer and it is NO genetic evidence for you theory.


People (SUMERIANS??, proto-Aryans, proto-Kurds/Persians) from the Zagros firstly migrated into Maykop/Yamnaya and from there already mixed people from the Steppes migrated into the Europe. So it was in different stages.

That is just your private theory. The Steppe-theory hasn't seen any set back yet, so there is no reason to abandon it. Linguistically it is parsimonious as it explains the clear indication that PIE has ties to the Caucasus and to proto-Uralic. It explains DNA results, archaeology and furthermore, R1b in Villabruna is far better explainable if R1b was native to the area. There seems to be a clear AG3 signal in WHG.


Of course there was no 'direct genetic contribution'. Modern Europeans are only PARTLY from Yamnaya. They are not really Yamnaya people, but 'hybrids'. Also people in Yamnaya Horizon were 'HYBRIDS" by themselves. Yamnaya folks were not pure at all.

But those who lived in Yamnaya were 'DIRECTLY' influenced by proto-Kurds. And Europeans were directly influenced by the Yamnaya folks and therefore indirectly by the folks from the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.

Proto-Kurds, no less! Anyway, we'll see the D-stats this year.

Goga
05-06-16, 12:08
Maybe it could still be. However, this pre-announcement doesn't bring it any closer and it is NO genetic evidence for you theory.

That is just your private theory. The Steppe-theory hasn't seen any set back yet, so there is no reason to abandon it. Linguistically it is parsimonious as it explains the clear indication that PIE has ties to the Caucasus and to proto-Uralic. It explains DNA results, archaeology and furthermore, R1b in Villabruna is far better explainable.
There is a genetic evidence for this theory. West Asian auDNA in Yamnaya should be enough evidence. Yamnaya folks were 'hybrids' between West Asians (Caucasus/Iranian Plateau) and native ancient Steppes Peoples before the arrival of West Asians.


Modern European R1b is different from the R1b of Villabruna. It has been evolved separately. West Asia has still got some of the oldest and most archaic R1b haplogroups. Remember that R1b in Africa is NOT from Europe, but from West Asia. Because there is 'West Asian' auDNA in R1b-rich areas in Africa and not European auDNA at all.

We have got plenty archeological evidence that West Asian Maykop folks migrated into the Yamnaya. Like kurgans in Maykop are older than Yamnaya Kurgans. Ceramics/pottery or oldest bronze stuff in the Maykop. Early PIE has nothing to do with Uralic. It is possible that Uralic was somehow influenced by the LATE Pie from Yamanaya and later by already evolved Iranian (Aryan) languages.


Just 1 question? Which race is nowadays in our modern world the most 'native' to Zagros Mountains??? Thank you!

epoch
05-06-16, 13:02
There is a genetic evidence for this theory. West Asian auDNA in Yamnaya should be enough evidence. Yamnaya folks were 'hybrids' between West Asians (Caucasus/Iranian Plateau) and native ancient Steppes Peoples before the arrival of West Asians.


Modern European R1b is different from the R1b of Villabruna. It has been evolved separately.

That is not what I read. It may not be the origin of European R1b, but it's pretty related to it. It begs an explanation.


West Asia has still got some of the oldest and most archaic R1b haplogroups.

That is true. However, that doesn't mean it originated there. It is tied to Indo-Aryans (Persia, Kurds) so it could also have come with steppe-people. Furthermore these could be undocumented R1b sub clades, as was the case in other studies claiming R1b* in Jordan IIRC.


Remember that R1b in Africa is NOT from Europe, but from West Asia. Because there is 'West Asian' auDNA in R1b-rich areas in Africa and not European auDNA at all.

Even if it did go through the Middle-East it still is not proof of the origin of R1b. The idea that R1b originated north of the Caucasus and an early offshoot came through the Middle-East is perfectly possible. There is R1b V88 in West-Asian groups.



We have got plenty archeological evidence that West Asian Maykop folks migrated into the Yamnaya. Like kurgans in Maykop are older than Yamnaya Kurgans. Ceramics/pottery or oldest bronze stuff in the Maykop.

But Maykop is north of the Caucasus. And while it's considered a good candidate for the Caucasian influence in PIE we don't have Maykop auDNA yet. We do have mtDNA, U8 and V, T2, N1 (http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/10/mitochondrial-dna-from-maykop-wolfgang.html). So it looks like Maykop was at least partly European HG.

Also, we know that CHG exists in the Caucasus in the paleolithic and mesolithic, so you need far more to explain why Yamnaya got its CHG from an area far south of the Caucasus rather than an area close to it.


Early PIE has nothing to do with Uralic. It is possible that Uralic was somehow influenced by the LATE Pie from Yamanaya and later by already evolved Iranian (Aryan) languages.

That is utter nonsense. The ties are clearly old and deep. Ne- for negation, me- for me, etc etc. You can google it yourself. There even is a tendency to consider the ties to be proof of a partly shared decent.

Goga
05-06-16, 13:31
That is not what I read.Maybe you read what you want to read.



That is true. However, that doesn't mean it originated there. It is tied to Indo-Aryans (Persia, Kurds) so it could also have come with steppe-people.There is a lot of R1b in Jordan and Levant in general. Assyrians are not Iranic. R1b is also very high among the Armenians. Armenians are also not Iranic



That is utter nonsense. The ties are clearly old and deep. Ne- for negation, me- for me, etc etc. You can google it yourself. There even is a tendency to consider the ties to be proof of a partly shared decent.That's your opinion.

Ancient Steppes folks before 'late' PIE arrival from the Maykop into the Yamnaya could spoke a some kind of Uralic language. Uralic is much more closer to Turanic and Mongoloid people (people with broad faces and small eyes). There is a lot Turkish/Mongoloid DNA in the Steppes. So there was an interaction between Uralic people and Maykop/Yamnaya people. The Steppes folks are partly 'Caucasoid', partly 'Mongoloid'. But there is absolutely no evidence that the very first PIE and Uralic shared the same ancestors. Sure, maybe some creationists who desperately trying to link PIE to the Europeans come with a different story. But this is nothing but fantasy. And their opinions are not my problem



What about proposed family language of Uralic–Yukaghir languages? Or Eskimo–Uralic languages or Uralo-Siberian languages or Ural-Altaic languages?



Proto-Indo-Iranian (proto-Indic & proto-Iranic) languages had ergativity in them. Also, Caucasian languages have ergativity in them, while Uralic languages are not linked to ergativity. Uralic is a 'Mongoloid' language and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'Caucasoid' Iranian Plateau/West Asia.


With other words, 'early' PIE had aboslutely no conenction with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes, while 'late' PIE in Yamnaya/Steppes had connection with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes.

Tomenable
05-06-16, 13:54
But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes :(((

They can, as long as they work in an autonomous collective and don't have a lord!: :grin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

epoch
05-06-16, 14:04
Maybe you read what you want to read.

*sigh*


That's your opinion.

No, the opinion of linguistics.


Ancient Steppes folks before 'late' PIE arrival from the Maykop into the Yamnaya could spoke a some kind of Uralic language. Uralic is much more closer to Turanic and Mongoloid people (people with broad faces and small eyes). There is a lot Turkish/Mongoloid DNA in the Steppes. So there was an interaction between Uralic people and Maykop/Yamnaya people. The Steppes folks are partly 'Caucasoid', partly 'Mongoloid'. But there is absolutely no evidence that the very first PIE and Uralic shared the same ancestors. Sure, maybe some creationists who desperately trying to link PIE to the Europeans come with a different story. But this is nothing but fantasy. And their opinions are not my problem

More sighing.



What about proposed family language of Uralic–Yukaghir languages? Or Eskimo–Uralic languages or Uralo-Siberian languages or Ural-Altaic languages?

Most linguistics agree on PU <-> PIE. Very few on these.


Proto-Indo-Iranian (proto-Indic & proto-Iranic) languages had ergativity in them. Also, Caucasian languages have ergativity in them, while Uralic languages are not linked to ergativity.

Which why the most linguistics, the same as previous mentioned also agree on a Caucasian influence or substrate. Where does that bring us? North of the Caucasus and Black Sea.


Uralic is a 'Mongoloid' language and has absolutely nothing to do with the 'Caucasoid' Iranian Plateau/West Asia.
With other words, 'early' PIE had aboslutely no conenction with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes, while 'late' PIE in Yamnaya/Steppes had connection with Mongoloid languages in the Steppes.

It's a lovely day here. I'm not going to waste it on arguing on this.

Alan
05-06-16, 14:52
I did say the Iranian Plateau people will not resemble those Anatolian_Levant farmers but look more similar to CHG dudes, probably being more Gedrosia shifted though.

My whole theory from the beginning was, we will deal with two if not three distinct groups. Anatolian_Levant farmers in the West. "Teal like" people on the Iranian Plateau and the Caucasus. I also said those CHG dudes probably came up there from the Iranian Plateau didn't I?

Heck the supplement uses even the same wording as I did. I always spoke about an Western part and an Eastern part of the Near East that at least for over 2 years now.

take in mind the text also speaks about those Neolithic people from the Iranian Plateau receiving Basal Eurasian ancestry by start of the Neolithic means, before that the Iranian Plateau probably CHG minus the Basal Eurasian portion, which sounds like an ANE like people to me, which makes even more sense, We have a ANE-WHG transition from the Iranian Plateau to Anatolia. ANE mixed with BE on the Iranian Plateau and becomes CHG while in the Levant and Anatolia it mixes with WHG and becomes Anatolia-Levant Farmers.

Alan
05-06-16, 15:17
The Neolithic Revolution developed among geographically adjacent but genetically distinct populations (http://smbe-2016.p.asnevents.com.au/days/2016-07-07/abstract/35146)

Now we have DNA from Neolithic farmers from Barcin Turkey and Zagros Mountaisn in Iran. They lived 1200 miles apart from each other and were genetically very distinct from each other. The Zagros Neolithic female has affinity to Paleo Caucasians, meaning she's probably descended of locals who learned how to farm. Both distinct Stone age Near Eastern populations migrated into Europe. The farmers from Turkey colonized most of Western and Southern Europe and relatives(maybe farmers) to the Zagros Neolithic woman migrated North into Russia. That's what we know so far.

Abstract:

Have you found some stone tables which listed all the genders of the individuals which went for the migration? :grin:

Alan
05-06-16, 15:23
However, that is not what the pre-announcement states nor implies. It states:


There are several key words in this sentence. 1. the little word direct, which implies they didn't contributed directly as Anatolian_Levant farmers to the European continent but rather indirect and in lower percentage, in form of maybe Mykop to Yamnaya. 2. What I have learned in these papers is, they distinguish between Europe and Eurasian Steppes. When they talk of EUrope they generally mean the lands west of Anatolia. And they refer to the European and Asian Steppes simply as Eurasian Steppes. So I kinda believe they don't really talk about the Eurasian Steppes here when they speak of Europe.

bicicleur
05-06-16, 15:36
Papua's most likely.



Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication.



Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.

My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.

You see this clearly in the DNA results: The later you get into the neolithic the more HG DNA farmers get.

Indeed.
IMO it is very likely that if the farmers from SW Asia hadn't come to Europe, Villabrunans would have started farming themselves at some point.
They were allready sedentary. They cleared some lands to atract game like deer and boar and to stimalute growth of hazelnuts. They were quite organised and methodic to put traps for fish and small game. They were at the stage where Natufians were before the youngest dryas.

arvistro
05-06-16, 16:19
Have you found some stone tables which listed all the genders of the individuals which went for the migration? :grin:
:)
"Relatives of Zagros woman" (because she was a woman) is a normal statement that can be made without knowing gender of the relatives in question.
Now, if he said "female relatives of Zagros woman"...

AliShirwan
05-06-16, 16:29
Close to Medes/Lurs. In theory R1b-should be similar to Steppe samples.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-boprzJzw7VQ/VNxU8VTUphI/AAAAAAAAJ7g/2A_cJM6Hirk/s1600/3.jpg


http://oi66.tinypic.com/28bximo.jpg

http://lostraccifojo.altervista.org/joomla/images/stories/prete1/ECTABANA%20QATWAN.jpg

Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

epoch
05-06-16, 17:50
There are several key words in this sentence. 1. the little word direct, which implies they didn't contributed directly as Anatolian_Levant farmers to the European continent but rather indirect in form of maybe Mykop to Yamnaya. 2. What I have learned in these papers is, they distinguish between Europe and Eurasian Steppes. When they talk of EUrope they generally mean the lands west of Anatolia. And they refer to the European and Asian Steppes simply as Eurasian Steppes. So I kinda believe they don't really talk about the Eurasian Steppes here when they speak of Europe.

It states:

Despite their key role in developing the Neolithic package, the inhabitants of Ganj Dareh made little direct genetic contribution to modern European populations, suggesting they were somewhat isolated from other populations in this region.

Mind you, it is a pre-announcement. Let's not read too much in it yet. They will probably release it and we'll do all the D-stats.

EDIT: Back to the BBQ.

EDIT2: The pre-announcement also mentions:
Their high frequency of short runs of homozygosity, comparable to other early Neolithic farmers, suggests that they overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians.

Now really back to the BBQ.

Goga
05-06-16, 18:20
Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.
How much 'ANE' do Feylis and Lurs have compared to other Kurds?

Of all West Asians Northern Caucasians have the highest percentage of ANE. Kurds and Persians have a little bit lower than Northern Caucasians.

Once I stated that ANE in Kurds was very ancient and native to Kurds, Kurdistan (Zagros). Kurds had also as much ANE as Northern Caucasians maybe even more, but after mixing with the ancient Anatolian people the ANE component in Kurds lowered some percent (%) points.


I'm sure that Gedrosia, ANE etc. is related to the ancient CHG folks..

Greying Wanderer
05-06-16, 18:42
But... but.. hunters cant learn farming without taking up farmers genes :(((

I think recent history has shown nomadic or semi-nomadic HGs don't take to farming that well but maybe there's a difference between those and HGs who are already sedentary?

Turn it the other way round and instead of thinking about specific farmer genes say for the sake of argument there are/were various kinds of "itchy feet" genes that were/are high frequency among HGs (e.g. ADD) then sedentary HGs might lose those genes over time thus pre-adapting them for farming.

If that was the case then farming would most likely have started among HGs who were already sedentary for some reason.

So the question becomes what environments might have created sedentary HGs?

I'd say it would have to be environments that had a static food source beneficial enough to have effectively domesticated the local humans

e.g. a valley full of date, fig, apple, pear, peach, acorn etc trees.

Greying Wanderer
05-06-16, 19:59
we show that the eastern part of the Ancient Near East was inhabited by a population genetically most similar to hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus but distinct from the Neolithic Anatolian people who later brought food production into Europe.

The two points that strike me are

1) either farming spread between the east/west parts of this region without gene flow or there were at least two groups who developed farming independently

2) in the eastern part of the region either
- there was a set of widespread but locally drifted CHG-like populations who developed farming independently (or picked it up from one group without gene flow)
or
- a CHG-like population somewhere developed partial farming e.g. goat herding, then spread out and settled over a wide area with just that and later their drifted descendants domesticated whatever happened to be around where they'd settled (eventually creating the full neolithic package).


hey overwintered the Last Glacial Maximum in a climatically favourable area, where they may have received a genetic contribution from a population basal to modern Eurasians

As a pet theory I'm inclined to the proto-farmer goat-herder option where a CHG-like population connected to ydna J expanded rapidly from a source region with goat herds over a very wide area and then the full neolithic package developed later from that base.

If correct I'd guess the source region would be somewhere in the wild goat range

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Capra_range_map2.jpg

Personally I think the source region (if there was one) is most likely adjacent/near the Himalayas (mountain mommas) but that's just a guess.

AliShirwan
05-06-16, 22:43
How much 'ANE' do Feylis and Lurs have compared to other Kurds?

Of all West Asians Northern Caucasians have the highest percentage of ANE. Kurds and Persians have a little bit lower than Northern Caucasians.

Once I stated that ANE in Kurds was very ancient and native to Kurds, Kurdistan (Zagros). Kurds had also as much ANE as Northern Caucasians maybe even more, but after mixing with the ancient Anatolian people the ANE component in Kurds lowered some percent (%) points.


I'm sure that Gedrosia, ANE etc. is related to the ancient CHG folks..

Here are all the Feylis so far tested, this is the ANE.(mine included is the first one):


Mdlp project k13 ultimate

Me


#
Population
Percent


1
ANE
34.52


2
Caucas-Gedrosia
33.29


3
NearEast
13.39


4
ENF
11.48


5
ASI
3.67


6
Subsaharian
2.33



M876120



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucas-Gedrosia
37.81


2
ANE
34.09


3
NearEast
13.58


4
ENF
8.31


5
ASI
4.05


6
Subsaharian
2.03



M790508


#
Population
Percent


1
ANE
36.63


2
Caucas-Gedrosia
31.68


3
NearEast
12.13


4
ENF
9.64


5
ASI
6.65


6
Subsaharian
2.11


7
WHG-UHG
1.17



M721423



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucas-Gedrosia
35.26


2
ANE
33.45


3
NearEast
13.34


4
ENF
9.80


5
ASI
4.75


6
Subsaharian
1.56



M641655



#
Population
Percent


1
ANE
35.59


2
Caucas-Gedrosia
32.79


3
NearEast
12.10


4
ENF
11.30


5
ASI
5.43


6
Subsaharian
1.75


7
WHG-UHG
1.00



M414688


#
Population
Percent


1
Caucas-Gedrosia
35.77


2
ANE
32.65


3
NearEast
12.11


4
ENF
10.82


5
ASI
5.47


6
Subsaharian
1.81






I personally believe we have links to the general Eastern caucasus region. Since it seems like so far 80% are j1* and we tend to have alot of caucasus input, aswell as gedrosia input. I will wait for my ftdna result to come back in a few days.

epoch
05-06-16, 22:46
The two points that strike me are

1) either farming spread between the east/west parts of this region without gene flow or there were at least two groups who developed farming independently

2) in the eastern part of the region either
- there was a set of widespread but locally drifted CHG-like populations who developed farming independently (or picked it up from one group without gene flow)
or
- a CHG-like population somewhere developed partial farming e.g. goat herding, then spread out and settled over a wide area with just that and later their drifted descendants domesticated whatever happened to be around where they'd settled (eventually creating the full neolithic package).



As a pet theory I'm inclined to the proto-farmer goat-herder option where a CHG-like population connected to ydna J expanded rapidly from a source region with goat herds over a very wide area and then the full neolithic package developed later from that base.

If correct I'd guess the source region would be somewhere in the wild goat range

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Capra_range_map2.jpg

Personally I think the source region (if there was one) is most likely adjacent/near the Himalayas (mountain mommas) but that's just a guess.


Well, as Anatolian EN, Zagros and late upper Paleolithic Caucasian have Basal Eurasian it is possible the acquired that admixture in a LGM refuge. That must have been well supplied with game as the quote states. That basically rules out a lot of area's. Could indeed be the entire area you showed.

This is the LGM vegetation map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png

Silesian
05-06-16, 22:55
Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.

Someone posted on another thread that the early Iranian sample is in the 5.4% region on the map below, adjacent to the Lurs. Or where Laks live.
I'm not knowledgeable at all; Are Laks and Lurs also interchangeable Kurdish tribes ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laks_%28Iran%29
Below is a rough map of Lur frequency.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Map_of_Luri-inhabited_provinces_of_Iran%2C_according_to_a_poll _in_2010.PNG

AliShirwan
05-06-16, 23:07
@SILESIAN,

Ok let me try to explain this the best and most simple way I can. In terms of Laks, technically you would classify them as a "sub-group" of Kurdish or as others may like to call them "sub-ethnic group" of kurds. Either way I would say the majority of Laks identify and come under the Kurdish umbrella. Since Laki is a Kurdish dialect. It is practically identical to Feyli.


Now as for Lurs, I guess it gets political but there a number of Lurs who identify as Kurds. Whence we call them Feyli Lurs. I'm not too sure of their y-dna but I assume autosomally they are very similar to us Feylis. For the sake of genetics, I assume it is better to divide in that sense.

Anyway Lurs are I guess a transitional people, bewteen Persian and Feyli(Kurdish), atleast their language indicates such.

No Laks and Lurs aren't interchangable.

I've done a poor job of explaining lol.

7765

Goga
05-06-16, 23:49
Here are all the Feylis so far tested, this is the ANE.(mine included is the first one):



I personally believe we have links to the general Eastern caucasus region. Since it seems like so far 80% are j1* and we tend to have alot of caucasus input, aswell as gedrosia input. I will wait for my ftdna result to come back in a few days.
Thanks! This is very interesting.

Kurds belong to the 'Caspian race'. We are related to the people of Leyla-Tepe culture. I'm sure that Leyla-Tepe people were also the Iranian-Plateu CHG folks and belonged to the same Caspian race as Modern Kurds and Persians. It is from that area that folks migrated into the Mesopotamia, BMAC and Maykop/Yamnaya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture




I (Ezdi Kurd, from Shengal and Northern Kurdistan) have almost the same amount of ANE & Caucas-Gedrosia as you Feyli/Luri guys from SouthEast Kurdistan. This is GREAT!!! All Kurds (no matter to what dialect they do belong) are brothers.

Here are my results.




#
Population
Percent


1
ANE
33.37


2
Caucas-Gedrosia
33.26


3
ENF
13.61


4
NearEast
12.62


5
ASI
3.99


6
WHG-UHG
2.03


7
Subsaharian
1.07


8
Paleo-African
0.06

Goga
05-06-16, 23:57
ANE

Me = 33.37
You = 34.52
M876120 = 34.09
M790508 = 36.63
M721423 = 33.45
M641655 = 35.59
M414688 = 32.65


Caucas-Gedrosia

Me = 33.26
You = 33.29
M876120 = 37.81
M790508 = 31.68
M721423 = 35.26
M641655 = 32.79
M414688 = 35.77


Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???

AliShirwan
06-06-16, 00:13
ANE

Me = 33.37
You = 34.52
M876120 = 34.09
M790508 = 36.63
M721423 = 33.45
M641655 = 35.59
M414688 = 32.65


Caucas-Gedrosia

Me = 33.26
You = 33.29
M876120 = 37.81
M790508 = 31.68
M721423 = 35.26
M641655 = 32.79
M414688 = 35.77


Who is 'M876120'? Does he/she have some distant Persian ancestors???

No, 100% Feyli.

Greying Wanderer
06-06-16, 00:53
Well, as Anatolian EN, Zagros and late upper Paleolithic Caucasian have Basal Eurasian it is possible the acquired that admixture in a LGM refuge. That must have been well supplied with game as the quote states. That basically rules out a lot of area's. Could indeed be the entire area you showed.

This is the LGM vegetation map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Last_glacial_vegetation_map.png

yes, could well be nonsense - although "semi-arid temperate woodland or scrub" sounds kind of goaty

Alan
06-06-16, 02:18
:)
"Relatives of Zagros woman" (because she was a woman) is a normal statement that can be made without knowing gender of the relatives in question.
Now, if he said "female relatives of Zagros woman"...

Ah I see my mistake.

Alan
06-06-16, 02:27
Lurs are Feylis and vice versa. The only difference is a number of lurs in Luristan don't identify as Kurds. Whilst Feyli Lurs do. Anyway so far the Feylis tested have Pred been J1*.
Indeed that is something many people nowadays don't know. Just 4 decades ago it was generally an accepted fact that all Lurs are Kurds, in fact the capital of the Lurs in the Bakthiari Province is called "Shahre Kord" what basically means city of Kurds. Feylis are also considered Lors. Lor is more a cultural term and today Lors are divided into two groups "Big Lors" and "small Lors". Big Lors being so influenced by Persian that it is considered as a transition language between Persian and Kurdish nowadays. "Small Lorish" aka Laki/feyli
still being considered South Kurdish.

There is a legend among the Lors, Once they were one family however the two brother (reference to the Big and small Lors) had a dispute and so divided. During the talks of Sevres the maps about Kurds presented always included the Lori territories all the way into Southwest Iran. But with time and lost of identity among some Big Lors (Bakthiaris) the maps became also smaller.

http://www.kurdistan24.com/Home-Picture/kurdistan-1.jpg

Aaron1981
06-06-16, 04:31
Some of the old admixture runs had West Asia and Gedrosia as two separate but related components. The latter was more strongly related to north European populations, the former was more often found in south/south eastern European countries like Italy, Greece, and through the Balkans. However, both were present in Europe in varying degrees. I suspect that's the difference here. Zagros is most definitely the one previously labeled West Asia.

Fire Haired14
06-06-16, 04:57
I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.

"Kurd" refers to language not genes. Calling ancient non-Kurdish speaking people "proto-Kurds" is the same as calling Corded Ware "proto-Poles". You should call them people you think were genetically similar to modern Kurds.

There's no way to know if people in Zagros mountains 6,000+ years ago were similar to modern Kurds if we don't have their DNA. People made the same assumption about Europe you are with Kurdistan. They assumed there's been longer genetic continuation for longer than there has been. IMO, West Asian genetics will turn out to be just as complicated as European genetics. Our Neolithic Anatolian and Paleolithic Caucasus genomes can't explain the genetics of any modern population in the Middle East. I doubt the Neolithic Iranian genome will be able to either. Our Armenian genome from 2000 BC though is very similar to modern Caucasus and North West Asian populations.

LeBrok
06-06-16, 17:44
Papua's most likely. You would need to be more specific about a tribe. Some tribes are in a transition period, transition from hunting to agriculture. Women do crops and men still hunt. This is local thing though, nothing to do with European Agriculture and transfer of farming knowledge.




Harvesting wild cereals. Pretty much well established. The size of the grains is a good indication. I know, farming started from harvesting of wild varieties first and wheat becoming the main staple of diet, then harvesting with specific for it tools, like a sickle. In this case they also needed to do the thrashing of wheat, and storage. Last peace of the puzzle, the planting of crops, came much later.





Pigs weren't fed overproduction, they were herded in woods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannage
That is how Ertebolla and its cousins kept pigs.
Sure, you can always send kids to the forest to feed pigs, but it is not efficient way to produce the bacon. Also you are risking of losing the pig to the wolves and cougars, and pig is burning fat walking miles daily.


My theory: The reason why in Europe farmers always had farmers DNA has to do with the fact that once you farm, you own land. And with owning land comes the issue of inheritance. And that makes marriage a political question. So once you start farming your daughters become an asset in your political game. So if HGs settle near ENFs they will inevitably intermarry. The "apartheid" of farmers and HG's in Europe was only due to the fact that HGs and their later neolithic offspring didn't own land.
.It explains situation back then. What about now why Natives to Canada, Australia have land and can do agriculture, or at least herding? How hard is for a hunter to be a herder?
Looks like extremly hard.

Goga
06-06-16, 21:03
"Kurd" refers to language not genes.
Are you sure? I mean, I'm more fluent in Russian than in my native Kurdish language. Does this fact makes me ethnic Russian, of course not.

I've got only a Dutch nationality and I'm also fluent in Dutch. Does this fact makes me ethnic Dutch or even ethnic West European? Of course not.


Same with Kurdish. If someone (non-ethnic Kurd) speaks Kurdish fluently, that doesn't make him/her ethnic Kurd. Maybe one day when Kurdistan will be independent it will be possible to get a Kurdish 'nationality', and some of our neighbours will have a Kurdish nationality et. but still they will not be 'ethnic' Kurds. but that's a different topic..


"Kurd" is an ethnolinguistic term and refers to Kurdish people, race etc.

Fire Haired14
06-06-16, 23:25
@Goga,

How can a population in the past be the same ethnicity as one today if it didn't speak the same language? Language isn't all the determines ethnicity but it is very important.

If you have no Kurdish language you have no Kurds. In 4000 BC there was no Kurdish language and no Kurds. There may have been people with a similar genetic makeup but that doesn't make them proto-Kurds.

Goga
06-06-16, 23:58
Of course you have got the point! People evolve all the time. Modern people are very different to ancient people. If we were not evolving, we would still be monkeys and before that some other less intelligent animals. Evolution is part of our existence. I do agree with you.

Kurds of today are not the same as Kurds 4000 years ago. Kurds of today have also some other people (not native to Zagros) in their DNA.
Are Italians the same as the Romans of 2000 years ago? Not really, but still, the Italians are the descendants of the ancient mighty Romans.


Why I do consider those ancient people in the Zagros mountains as proto-Kurds? Very simple. When we look at the region, the only people who are native to that region are the modern Kurds. It is the place where the Kurdish race was born. It is the place (Kurdistan Zagros Mountains) that has been continuously populated by Kurdish ancestors, non-stop, by thousands of years. People come and go, but that place, the mountains never move. Those ancient people who lived in the Zagros Mountains and stayed in the Zagros Mountains became Kurds.

Zagros Mountains were their NATIVE homeland. And Zagros Mountains are still the NATIVE homeland of the Kurds. Kurds are not a 'bastard' race. We are ancient people, with our ancient deep roots. We have got our own roots and we know where we are from and the most important we are proud of it.



Kurdish saying: no friends but our beloved Zagros Mountains!



In 4000 BC people of Zagros Mountains spoke a language that was ancestral to modern Kurdish...

Alan
07-06-16, 02:55
Kurds as a ethnicity didn't existed back than. During Bronze Age-Iron Age populations/people existed who are ancestral to nowadays Kurds.

Goga
07-06-16, 13:13
Kurds are not only an ethnolinguistic group of people, but Kurds (Ezdi) are actually also an ethnoreligious group. The native Kurdish religion dates back to the times of the Sumerians, the Ubaid culture. (just google 'Sinjar' and 'Ubaid', and you will find many hits)

Ubaid culture had links with the Leyla-Tepe and the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains in general.

So, like Sumerians told about their divine roots from Annunaki/Nephilim, Kurdish Aryan race is also related to that of the ancient Sumerians.

So, Kurdish 'star' race goes back at the times of the Sumerians, at least to the times of the Ubaid culture.

And since we know that Sumerian Ubaid civilization was related to Leyla-Tepe, we have to acknowledge that those Sumerian Ubaid folks were also from the Iranian Plateau/Zagros mountains and belonged to the same race as those natives of Kurdistan Zagros Mountains.



Kurdish race existed before the so called Bronze Age. Ubaid period existed 2000 years before the Bronze Age, at least 5500 BC.



Sumerians Ubaid Nephilim. My NATIVE religion, the religion of Shefredin (for layman the Yezidism) is closely related to the Sumerian mythology. We also believe in 'angels' (Annunakï) who came down on earth.



http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/reptiles/images/reptiles40_02.jpg


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/reptiles/images/reptiles40_03.jpg

arvistro
07-06-16, 16:55
Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?

Goga
07-06-16, 17:25
Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?Original races that are not living on their native URHEMAT.


Kurds are not a 'bastard' race because they are inhabitating their ancestral homeland / URHEIMAT non-stop for thousands of years.


We are not saying we are from China, or we are from Levant/Arabia, or that we are from Africa, or that we are from Europe, or that we are from the EurAsian Steppes (+ Central Asia).

Kurds are saying that Kurds are from Kurdistan/Zagros Mountains and nowhere else. Kurdish and Kurdish native religion are native to their homeland. This is the highest form of having deep, deep ancient roots. Kurds are very ancient people, with very, very ancient history.


People who have a very ancient ethnic history/language/religion native to their homeland and never moved from their homeland, belong to a very noble (highest form) race.




I can come directly with examples, but I don't want to insult any other races. But if you read it carefully I gave you an answer to your question.

Goga
07-06-16, 17:51
I can use this example without insulting any races. Let say that there's an 'American' race. It is not 'yet' a race, but let say it is a race.

Then we can consider 'imaginative' American race as a bastard race. Why? Because most folks in America don't even know where they are from, they don't even know who they are. Who their parents/ancestors are. And the roots of the most 'rootless' people in America lies outside America (be it in Europe, Africa and Asia).

English or Spanish are not NATIVE to America.

arvistro
07-06-16, 19:04
I am from bastard race then :(
My Finno-ugric ancestors arrived to Latvia 1000-500 bce.
My Baltic ancestors only AD.

And then they... mixed....

I wish I was a Kurd!

Maleth
07-06-16, 19:50
I can use this example without insulting any races. Let say that there's an 'American' race. It is not 'yet' a race, but let say it is a race.

Then we can consider 'imaginative' American race as a bastard race. Why? Because most folks in America don't even know where they are from, they don't even know who they are. Who their parents/ancestors are. And the roots of the most 'rootless' people in America lies outside America (be it in Europe, Africa and Asia).

English or Spanish are not NATIVE to America.

Firstly I think its more apt to use mixed race rather then 'bastard' race.
Secondly the idea of a pure race could be genetically disastrous according to many genealogists and if it goes long enough can destroy a whole people slowly but surely. Its not something desirable in Nature as a whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

Goga
07-06-16, 20:48
Firstly I think its more apt to use mixed race rather then 'bastard' race.
Secondly the idea of a pure race could be genetically disastrous according to many genealogists and if it goes long enough can destroy a whole people slowly but surely. Its not something desirable in Nature as a whole.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
Nothing wrong with a little bit race mixing.

It is different from a 'bastard' race. A bastard race is when you don't know who you are and where you (or some of your parent/ancestors ) are from.


A little bit race mixing is very healthy when a 'native' receiver of some new genes (a minor gene flow) doesn't leave (abandon) it's native ancestral homeland and doesn't forget it's own roots and language.




It's disgusting and a big shame when a race forgets it's own language and it's own roots!

arvistro
07-06-16, 22:13
A little bit race mixing is very healthy when a 'native' receiver of some new genes (a minor gene flow) doesn't leave (abandon) it's native ancestral homeland and doesn't forget it's own roots and language.
How is life in Nederlands? :)

Goga
07-06-16, 22:17
I am from bastard race then :(
My Finno-ugric ancestors arrived to Latvia 1000-500 bce.
My Baltic ancestors only AD.

And then they... mixed....

I wish I was a Kurd!???

How native is Latvian to Latvia? As far as I know Latvian is only spoken in Latvia. At least Latvian is not spoke as native language outside Latvia.


Take Turkish, or Arabic. Turkish is NOT native to West Asia. It is native to the Altai region. Turkic is spoken by native people of the Altai region. Those Turks (Turkish speakers) who live in their ancestral native homeland Altai are not a bastard race. While people in Turkey, who were once Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Georgians, Slavs etc. and forgot their language and started to speak Turkic language are lost people. They forgot their ancestors, while they speak foreign language as their native language.


Same with the Arabs. Arabic is actually NATIVE to Yemen. Those who speak Arabic outside the Arabian urheimat in Arabia/Yemen, forgot who their non-Arab ancestors/daddies were, who were natives in let say the Levant. Before the Arabs, Levant was not Arabian. But people forgot their roots and started to consider themselves Arabs. same with the so called Arabs in Northern Africa. etc.



When a child doesn't know who his daddy is or when a father denies his child, that child is a bastard child..


This is a big shame and all people on this planet should be protected against this GENOCIDAL process.

Goga
07-06-16, 22:22
How is life in Nederlands? :)safe... but I'm in diaspora...

After Kurdistan is freed and safe too without Muslim aggression/threat in my native homeland, someday, I'll go back to my ancestral homeland. Like Jews in diaspora went back to Israel. My ancestors left Kurdistan more than 100 years ago. 100 years ago my great great grandfather was the only survivor of his whole family. My ancestors fled Kurdistan 100 years ago not to be assimilated and to safe our race/identity. They did everything to stay pure and to stay close to our ancestors.


It's now my duty and duty of my descendants to stay pure and respect our ancestors..

Goga
07-06-16, 22:44
Btw, it is because of countries like the Nederlands, my ancestral Kurdistan is NOT a safe country for me.

They should stop protecting our enemies, like they should stop protecting the Turks & Arabs. And helping our enemies in killing the Kurds.


Countries like the Nederlands are interested in making blood money with helping to kill innocent people, women, children.


Let me give an exapmle, countries like the Netherlands started a war in Syria only to steal money/oil/wealth from that region. So, those coutnries shouldn't wine when people from where the western countries created chaos, migrate into the countries like Holland.


It is because of Holland, Germany, France, US etc. there are wars in the Middle East. NEVER forget that.


What are these OIL companies doing in Kurdistan???? To HELL with them!


Austria
OMV

Canada
Groundstar Resources
Niko Resources
Shamaran Petroleum
Talisman Energy
Vast Exploration
WesternZagros

Norway
DNO International

United Kingdom
Afren
Gulf Keystone Petroleum
Perenco
Sterling Energy

United States
Aspect Energy
Chevron
Hess
Hunt Petroleum
Murphy Oil Corporation


http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/list-of-international-oil-companies-in-iraqi-kurdistan/



That's why I hate capitalism, liberalism, imperialism. Different faces of the same coin. BECAUSE of capitalism, liberalism, imperialism I must to live in diaspora now!

Fire Haired14
08-06-16, 01:19
Kurds are not only an ethnolinguistic group of people, but Kurds (Ezdi) are actually also an ethnoreligious group. The native Kurdish religion dates back to the times of the Sumerians, the Ubaid culture. (just google 'Sinjar' and 'Ubaid', and you will find many hits)

That's an opinion not fact.

Goga
08-06-16, 01:34
That's an opinion not fact.
What is an opinion?

That Ezdi Kurds are an ethnoreligious group? I mean of course it is, because it is exclusively Iranid Ezdi religion. Outsiders can never become part of this religion. Ezdi religion doesn't accept people who want also to follow this religion. To be Ezdi, BOTH of you parents have to be Ezdi. This is a fact and one of the most important pillars of our religion. According to our religion mixing is a huge SIN!

Ezdi have 2 religious centers of their faith. 1 is in Lalish and the 2nd one is in Shengal Mountains (Sinjar). Shengal Mountains (Sinjar) have always been populated by the Ezdi Kurds. Also a fact. Shengal is one the most holy lands of the Ezdi Kurds. 'Shengal' is native Kurdish name, while Arabs and other Semites are using the name 'Sinjar'.


About Northern Shengal (Sinjar), north of the Mountains.

" The wall and other evidence at a huge mound in northeastern Syria known as Tell Hamoukar indicate a complex government dating back at least 6,000 years. It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known. "

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/sinjar.htm


https://books.google.nl/books?id=60fmNZQzwjYC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=ubaid+sinjar&source=bl&ots=Wr5Ba0MWgN&sig=mVmCdKrl4KI72yNZdF_oJMGXvns&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9ydiQiJfNAhXIPBQKHWjNCJkQ6AEIHzAA#v=on epage&q=ubaid%20sinjar&f=false

https://books.google.nl/books?id=pMoF0SbMKd4C&pg=PA403&lpg=PA403&dq=ubaid+sinjar&source=bl&ots=Nrakdquke7&sig=BzBltBaADtsoNz3_xPa3Td0FZhY&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9ydiQiJfNAhXIPBQKHWjNCJkQ6AEIMTAD#v=on epage&q=ubaid%20sinjar&f=false

etc.


There are thousands links between the Sumerian Mythology and the faith of Shefredin (for layman it is the Yezidism).


Btw, Muslims are trying to destroy Shengal (Sinjar), because Muslims are jealous of the history/roots of the Ezdi Kurds.

Fire Haired14
08-06-16, 01:42
I don't understand the rough history Kurds have, oppression you guys face, and your patriotism but none of that justifies twisting history.


Original races that are not living on their native URHEMAT.


Kurds are not a 'bastard' race because they are inhabitating their ancestral homeland / URHEIMAT non-stop for thousands of years.

We can't measure how long an ethnicity has lived on their land because humans have only been writing on paper for a couple thousand years in most parts of the world or even less. 99.9% of human history is a mystery. All we have to know what happened in 99.9% of human history is old remains underground, and those remains can't tell us what ethnicity an ancient people belonged to.

Writing from 3,000 years ago confirms Kurdish language evolved from languages that existed in Kurdistan 3,000 years ago, but there's nothing to prove or disprove the Kurdish language was in that region before 3,000 years ago.

It's unlikely that many modern ethnicities have a single ancient ancestor. Everyone to some extent is mixed. Kurds didn't suddenly appear in Mespotamia. Kurds are a mixture of several differnt peoples who had at somepoint migrated from somewhere else into Mesoptamia. The Kurdish language has a single source, but Kurdish ancestry/genes don't have a single source. We understand European genetics because of ancient DNA and this is the case for Europeans. Italians aren't descended of a single ancestors who migrated to Italy at a certain date. Italians are a mixture of many differnt people who arrived in Italy in differnt time periods, even some who arrived in the Middle Ages.

So in my opinion it is likely the Kurdish ethnicity didn't form till the last 3,000 years and the Kurdish genetic(and genetic makeup of their closely related neighbors) didn't form till the last 5,000 years. In the last many 100s of years and probably 1,000s of years Kurds may have stayed pure and distinct, but when you go back far enough they are mixed.



People who have a very ancient ethnic history/language/religion native to their homeland and never moved from their homeland, belong to a very noble (highest form) race.

Kurds are native to Iran/Iraq area or whatever(I don't know the name), that's cool. You have cultural connections going back even 1,000s of years cool. Yeah that's your land, but you can't claim that Kurd's ancestors have always been there. Because there's been writing(very little writing) in your region continuously for 5,000 years we have a better historical record of the languages-ethnciies who have lived there than anywhere else. And we can see that the Kurdish language hasn't always been there. Sumerian and then Semetic languages where there before Iranian languages.

At some-point between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago Iranian language emerged/migrated in/to your region, or they just happened to not know how to write 5,000 years ago. In all likely hood Iranian languages did arrive ultimately from North Eurasian Bronze age folk like Andronovo. This isn't a bad thing. Lots of your ancestry is probably from pre-Iranian(Like Sumerians) and the newcomers who spoke Iranian languages.

Goga
08-06-16, 01:58
Sumerian and then Semetic languages where there before Iranian languages.

At some-point between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago Iranian language emerged/migrated in/to your region, or they just happened to not know how to write 5,000 years ago. In all likely hood Iranian languages did arrive ultimately from North Eurasian Bronze age folk like Andronovo. This isn't a bad thing. Lots of your ancestry is probably from pre-Iranian(Like Sumerians) and the newcomers who spoke Iranian languages.
No way! Sumerian predate any Indo-Iranian languages by thousands of years. And secondly, Semitic was never spoken in the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau. That's impossible! Semitic langauges are native to Levant & Arabia and came into the Mesopotamia with the Semitic Akkadians and their Semitic relatives.


Sumerians predate the Semites by thousands of years.

At the times of Leyla-Tepe, the Semites didn't even exist!

Sumerians also predate the Andronovo monkeys by thousands of years.


Indo-Iranian can't be from Andronovo, since proto-Indo-Iranian had an ergativity construction in it. While native languages in Central Asia (and even in the Western Steppes) don't have any ergativity. Turkic, Uralic, Finnic and even LATE Yamnaya-PIE languages didn't have any ergativity.

While Indo-Iranian (modern Kurdish, Indic etc.) had (have) ergativity. So the Indo-Iranian language didn't evolve in the Steppes or in Central Asia, but in WEST Asia! Because there is also an ergativity in the Caucasian languages.



Ergativity in the region is only NATIVE to Indo-Iranian and Caucasian languages and both groups belong as we know now to ancient CHG folks. With other words ancient Indo-Iranian was closely connected to the ancient CHG folks on the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!


+ Ancient native Iranian religions are related to Sumerians (ancient Mesopotamia) and the Iranian Palateau/Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe).


Even according to the ancient Zoroastrian East Iranian texts, Aryans were NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau. Those texts never mentioned places outside the Iranian Plateau.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32237-Birthplace-of-Zarathustra?highlight=zoroastrianism



So:

1) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) language is related to the Iranian Plateau, due to ergativity.
2) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) religion (the Yezidism) is related to the Zagros Mountains/Mesopotamia, due to the Sumerian connection. Even Zoroastrianism is related to West Asia.
3) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) DNA (CHG) is related to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!

Alan
08-06-16, 03:45
Goga, if Kurds are not bastard race, which Races are?

So you are calling Kurds who shows on various genetic calculators and studies to be one of the most homogenous ethnic group in the Near East, a bastard race because possibly WIkipedia told you? Stop being a smartass next time, if you don't know crap

The important components that build the modern Kurds merged/fusioned together between Bronze to very late Iron Age. Afterwards they never received any important admixture from outside. That is proven by innethnic fst Distances. Not even the border managed to change that.

@Goga

stop flooding every freakn Thread with your nonsense. This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.

Sile
08-06-16, 04:33
No way! Sumerian predate any Indo-Iranian languages by thousands of years. And secondly, Semitic was never spoken in the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau. That's impossible! Semitic langauges are native to Levant & Arabia and came into the Mesopotamia with the Semitic Akkadians and their Semitic relatives.


Sumerians predate the Semites by thousands of years.

At the times of Leyla-Tepe, the Semites didn't even exist!

Sumerians also predate the Andronovo monkeys by thousands of years.


Indo-Iranian can't be from Andronovo, since proto-Indo-Iranian had an ergativity construction in it. While native languages in Central Asia (and even in the Western Steppes) don't have any ergativity. Turkic, Uralic, Finnic and even LATE Yamnaya-PIE languages didn't have any ergativity.

While Indo-Iranian (modern Kurdish, Indic etc.) had (have) ergativity. So the Indo-Iranian language didn't evolve in the Steppes or in Central Asia, but in WEST Asia! Because there is also an ergativity in the Caucasian languages.



Ergativity in the region is only NATIVE to Indo-Iranian and Caucasian languages and both groups belong as we know now to ancient CHG folks. With other words ancient Indo-Iranian was closely connected to the ancient CHG folks on the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!


+ Ancient native Iranian religions are related to Sumerians (ancient Mesopotamia) and the Iranian Palateau/Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe).


Even according to the ancient Zoroastrian East Iranian texts, Aryans were NATIVE to the Iranian Plateau. Those texts never mentioned places outside the Iranian Plateau.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32237-Birthplace-of-Zarathustra?highlight=zoroastrianism



So:

1) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) language is related to the Iranian Plateau, due to ergativity.
2) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) religion (the Yezidism) is related to the Zagros Mountains/Mesopotamia, due to the Sumerian connection. Even Zoroastrianism is related to West Asia.
3) ancient Kurdish (Indo-Iranian) DNA (CHG) is related to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains!

Also , anatolia , spoke no semitic, .............the hatti , Hittite and Luwian ( any any othe rminor ones ) where non-semitic


with this, anatolia and south-caucasus show not be referred to as the middle-east

Yetos
08-06-16, 05:18
That's why I hate capitalism, liberalism, imperialism. Different faces of the same coin. BECAUSE of capitalism, liberalism, imperialism I must to live in diaspora now!

my friend do a favor to yourshelf,
to find peace,

when Greek revolt happened,
when Makedonian struggle happened,
when WW1 happened,
when minor Asian campaign happened
etc etc
many Greeks from Diaspora came to fight, creating indepented small groups,

now since your enthousiasmos is so high,
your believes and ideas so strong,
your soul does not find peace,
do a favore to your shelf,
go to Syrria and take a gun, and help your people there, at your homeland.
it is the best time for you to fullfil your dream and your will,
freedom does not come by internet posts.
cause if you are an adult, you have that choice,

all the above, capitalism imperialism, etc are to be blaimed for the conditions of your country,
but not to be blaimed cause you are in diaspora (scattered) at times of war.
Διασπορα Greek word means scattered, dispersion.

sonici
08-06-16, 14:15
Iranians(or Persians) aren't from Aryan race, they're from Y-DNA J2 which is Semitic. They've founded the Achaemenid empire.
Here look http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/
%49 of the Kurds are from Y-DNA: J2 haplogroup and most of others are from K, L and H haplogroups.. there are also I(Germanic White European) haplogroup among them, most probably descended from "Prisoner of war" crusaders.
Example: Seljuk(Turkic)-Crusader wars
There are high amounts of R1a among the Zaza people, I think they're descended from Persianicized Turkic tribes. They're patriotic people in Turkia.
Example: "Mahmut Yıldırım(Yeşil)"
Fought against pkk in Turkish Secret Service: JITEM
7771
7770

AliShirwan
08-06-16, 15:13
my friend do a favor to yourshelf,
to find peace,

when Greek revolt happened,
when Makedonian struggle happened,
when WW1 happened,
when minor Asian campaign happened
etc etc
many Greeks from Diaspora came to fight, creating indepented small groups,

now since your enthousiasmos is so high,
your believes and ideas so strong,
your soul does not find peace,
do a favore to your shelf,
go to Syrria and take a gun, and help your people there, at your homeland.
it is the best time for you to fullfil your dream and your will,
freedom does not come by internet posts.
cause if you are an adult, you have that choice,

all the above, capitalism imperialism, etc are to be blaimed for the conditions of your country,
but not to be blaimed cause you are in diaspora (scattered) at times of war.
Διασπορα Greek word means scattered, dispersion.

No offence but you really don't know the situation in Kurdistan and the middle-east first hand like I or other Kurdish members do. It cannot be compared to Greeks fighting the Ottomans back in the 19th century. Since we Kurds didn't have support of the British and Russian empire, like how you did.

Second you yourself haven't partaken in any of thos rebellions, albeit you weren't born then. None the less you cannot talk as if you would fight but not have the military experience yourself.

Goga
08-06-16, 15:16
@Goga

... This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.
There was a time when our native Kurdish Aryan religion was a MAJORITY in Kurdistan, never forget that..

AliShirwan
08-06-16, 15:19
Iranians(or Persians) aren't from Aryan race, they're from Y-DNA J2 which is Semitic. They've founded the Achaemenid empire.
Here look http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/
%49 of the Kurds are from Y-DNA: J2 haplogroup and most of others are from K, L and H haplogroups.. there are also I(Germanic White European) haplogroup among them, most probably descended from "Prisoner of war" crusaders.
Example: Seljuk(Turkic)-Crusader wars
There are high amounts of R1a among the Zaza people, I think they're descended from Persianicized Turkic tribes. They're patriotic people in Turkia.
Example: "Mahmut Yıldırım(Yeşil)"
Fought against pkk in Turkish Secret Service: JITEM
7771
7770
That isn't even true. J2 appeared in the middle-east some 22,000 years ago. The semitic sub-race/linguistic groups didn't even exist at that time.


Haplogroup J2 is thought to have appeared somewhere in the Middle East towards the end of the last glaciation, between 15,000 and 22,000 years ago. The oldest known J2 sample at present comes from Kotias Klde in Georgia and dates from c. 9700 BCE (Jones et al. (2015) (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html)), confirming that haplogroup J2 was already found around the Caucasus during the Mesolithic period. Its present geographic distribution argue in favour of a Neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent. This expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE) from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia, rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant (which appears to be linked rather to haplogroups G2 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml) and E1b1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml)). A second expansion of J2 could have occured with the advent of metallurgy, notably copper working (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/map_diffusion_chalcolithic.shtml) (from the Lower Danube valley, central Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia), and the rise of some of the oldest civilisations.

t is very likely that J2a, J1 and G2a were the three dominant male lineages the Early Bronze Age Kura-Araxes culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E2%80%93Araxes_culture), which expanded from the South Caucasus to eastern Anatolia, northern Mesopotamia and the western Iran. From then on, J2 men would have definitely have represented a sizeable portion of the population of Bronze and Iron Age civilizations such as the Hurrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian), the Assyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) or the Hittites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites). It is very possible that bronze technology spread from the South Caucasus across the Iranian plateau until the Indus Valley, giving rise to the Harappan Civilisation (see below).

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

Yetos
08-06-16, 16:30
No offence but you really don't know the situation in Kurdistan and the middle-east first hand like I or other Kurdish members do. It cannot be compared to Greeks fighting the Ottomans back in the 19th century. Since we Kurds didn't have support of the British and Russian empire, like how you did.

Second you yourself haven't partaken in any of thos rebellions, albeit you weren't born then. None the less you cannot talk as if you would fight but not have the military experience yourself.

I think you do not know at all about support,
and you did not read international news,

sorry.

Goga
08-06-16, 16:57
I think you do not know at all about support,
and you did not read international news,

sorry.
I think he misunderstood you.

What you told me, I've heard also many times from my family members. So, I'm 100% sure you meant it good.


But there is one thing. The only opportunity for me to be in Kurdistan is to fight for PKK or to fight for Ezdi Kurds in Shengal. At this moment they need me there only as a 'soldier'.

But the problem is, I'm not a soldier/warrior. I've family members who fight with PKK against the Turkic Muslims (DAESH) and Arab Muslims (DAESH) on the frontline. So my family is doing its duty. And there are 50 million Kurds, so I'm sure that among those 50 million Kurds there are many million natural born warriors much better than me who are willing to fight.

At this moment, as a NON-Muslim, it's very dangerous for me to be in Kurdistan. I think I would be dead within 1 week. Less than 2 years ago, Sunni Muslims committed a GENOCIDE on my people! I'm contributing to Kurdistan my 'own' way and as long I do exist I will continue contribute to Kurdistan.

After the war Kurdistan needs intellectuals (high educated people) and people who will rebuild Kurdistan from the ashes. But don't think that my family doesn't give blood for Kurdistan, we did and we still do!



And soon we wil be victorious! Turanic Turks and Turkey are almost defeated. They will go back to the Altai, where they are from and do belong. It is just a matter of time..

MOESAN
09-06-16, 14:48
True. CHG ancestry in Yamnaya Horizon came from Caucasus/Maykop. But there was a migration from the Iranian Plateau (Leyla-Tepe) into the Maykop. There is an archeological evidence for it.



I mean 'genetically' proto-Kurds. Kurds are native to the Zagros Mountains and Kurdish DNA didn't change much since the ancient times, the last thousands of years.

The only difference between proto-Kurds of Zagros Mountains and modern Kurds is that the modern Kurds got also a lot of 'Anatolian' DNA from the ancient times.


I read this thread bit by bit by lack of time. Before making conclusions I try to understand some points. Helas I have not at hand a survey about Maykop auDNA. I have a metric comparisons of crania by Kazarnitsky 2010 from diverse cultures of the Maykop period and other cultures of the Steppes or surroundings. In his plotting based upon principal componants he puts Maykop of Novosvobonaya

MOESAN
09-06-16, 15:29
Sorry:it's following:
... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
Sorry. I think at loud voice!

Yetos
09-06-16, 15:58
I think he misunderstood you.

What you told me, I've heard also many times from my family members. So, I'm 100% sure you meant it good.


But there is one thing. The only opportunity for me to be in Kurdistan is to fight for PKK or to fight for Ezdi Kurds in Shengal. At this moment they need me there only as a 'soldier'.

But the problem is, I'm not a soldier/warrior. I've family members who fight with PKK against the Turkic Muslims (DAESH) and Arab Muslims (DAESH) on the frontline. So my family is doing its duty. And there are 50 million Kurds, so I'm sure that among those 50 million Kurds there are many million natural born warriors much better than me who are willing to fight.

At this moment, as a NON-Muslim, it's very dangerous for me to be in Kurdistan. I think I would be dead within 1 week. Less than 2 years ago, Sunni Muslims committed a GENOCIDE on my people! I'm contributing to Kurdistan my 'own' way and as long I do exist I will continue contribute to Kurdistan.

After the war Kurdistan needs intellectuals (high educated people) and people who will rebuild Kurdistan from the ashes. But don't think that my family doesn't give blood for Kurdistan, we did and we still do!



And soon we wil be victorious! Turanic Turks and Turkey are almost defeated. They will go back to the Altai, where they are from and do belong. It is just a matter of time..

I see, I know that role, we called it somehow as 'the back up organisation',
'the outer shelter'

Goga
09-06-16, 16:04
Sorry:it's following:
... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
Sorry. I think at loud voice!
Brother you are wrong. You forgot these studies?


" He questioned the resemblance between the Maikop crania from Evdyk I and those from Syezzheye and Zadono-Avilovsky; and he believed the former to resemble crania from the Caucasus, the Near East, and Southwestern Central Asia, being closest to those from Samtavro, Georgia, and Ginchi, Dagestan (Khokhlov, 2002).

T.I. Alekseyeva (2004) measured a male skull from mound 13 burial 5 at Nezhinskaya near Kislovodsk (the plastic reconstruction of this individual’s appearance was made by L.T. Yablonsky), as well as two crania (male and female) from mound 70 burial 1 at Zamankul in Northern Ossetia. All these crania came from “Maikop– Novosvobodnaya” burials and were attributed to the Mediterranean variety of the Southern Caucasoid type which was distributed in Armenia, Georgia, Iran, and Mesopotamia during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. The heterogeneity of the Maikop group in Alexeyeva’s opinion may be due to individual variability, but also to admixture with the natives of the southeastern European steppes (Alekseyeva, 2004).

In sum, the results of the multivariate analysis suggest that Maikop people are distinct from all the contemporary and later Eastern European groups of the steppe and forest-steppe zones. This provides an additional argument in favor of the hypothesis that Maikop burials in Kalmykia attest not merely to the cultural impact of the Maikop community on the steppe tribes (Munchaev, 1994: 168); rather, they were left by a separate group which was unrelated to the local Pit Grave population by origin. The Southern Caucasoid trait combination revealed by the Maikop series is somewhat similar to that shown by the contemporaneous groups of the Northern Caucasus and southern Turkmenia. Clearly, this does not imply a direct connection with any of these regions.

However, the isolated position of the Maikop group in Eastern Europe, its vague resemblance to the Southern Caucasoids of the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia, and the Near Eastern cultural affinities of Maikop and Novosvobodnaya (Munchaev, 1994: 170) indirectly point to Near Eastern provenance. "


http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.html



Or

" Uruk migrants in the Caucasus

During this period the South Caucasus experienced two powerful waves of Middle Eastern expansion: the first at the time of Late Neolithic culture of Sioni in the 4th-5th millennia B.C., and the second at the period of Tsopi culture in the Late Neolithic Age, at the end of the 5th and the first half of the 4th millennium B.C., which is known as the Uruk expansion era. Later, in the second half of the 4th and throughout the 3 rd millennium B.C., during the Early Bronze Age the Kura-Araxes culture of the Caucasus spread throughout the greater part of the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, northern parts of Iran, Middle East and even Europe. "

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html





There are also very much archeological evidences. But they are talking links between Uruk (Sumerian) and Maykop, while it's actually Leyla-Tepe on the Iranian Plateau that influenced Uruk and Maykop, we have also got evidence for that.

Goga
09-06-16, 16:08
Maybe Maykop was not 100% CHG, but it was for a huge, huge (greatest) part CHG, not only native to Caucasus but also a lot CHG from the Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains (Leyla-Tepe). I'm sure we would consider those Maykop folks as 'Iranid' (Aryan) today...

Goga
09-06-16, 16:25
I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".Not sure about J, since J2 and J1 is also very, very high in the Caucasus. Nobody is sure about J



But R1 is 100%, no 1000% from the Iranian Plateau. EVERY scholar agrees on that.


I'm R1a*, my Y-DNA hg. R1a* is 100% NATIVE to my homeland!



According to EVERY academic study on R1, R1 is from West Asia and more precisely from the Iranian Plateau

Original R1 was linked to CHG, full of ANE, full of Caucaso-Gedrosia



Here info from the 23andme DNA company.


http://s33.postimg.org/py4gg7k3z/R1a.jpg

arvistro
09-06-16, 16:42
So you are calling Kurds who shows on various genetic calculators and studies to be one of the most homogenous ethnic group in the Near East, a bastard race because possibly WIkipedia told you? Stop being a smartass next time, if you don't know crap

The important components that build the modern Kurds merged/fusioned together between Bronze to very late Iron Age. Afterwards they never received any important admixture from outside. That is proven by innethnic fst Distances. Not even the border managed to change that.

@Goga

stop flooding every freakn Thread with your nonsense. This Thread has not much to do with Kurds and any Kurdish religious minority.
You have tendency to misinterpret my texts.
If someone says his race is not bastard race, apparently he thinks other Races are. So, I just asked to specify which :)
Sorry if you understood it on some strange way :)

Angela
09-06-16, 19:09
Sorry:it's following:
... He puts Maykop Novosvobodnaya somewhat at the opposite of 2 people of Caucasus (Ginchi Dagestan and Samtavro Georgia) and closer to two Turkmenistan sites: Karadepe and Geoksyur, concerning one axis; closer yes but it stays a borderline. On the other axis, it's true, all these sites are on the same side. As a whole he finds that the most of Maykop people are rather 'mediterraneanlike' roughly said and are distinct from all the diverse Pit Grave and Catacombes groups of Russia, Ukraina, N-E Caucasus (Kalmykia) taken as a mean what does not exclude some slight admixture in some cases. I say: "distinct" doesn't mean: "absolutely without any genealogical link". For him, Maykop was at first imported by demic process and not acculturation. It remains that his Maykop is globally closer to some of the Catacombes and Pit Graves groups than to the 2 Caucasus ones! Still we have the question of geographical origin of Maykop people. Why are they not closer to contemporaneous Caucasus population? New populations arrived more recently into Caucasus? Heavier imput of the high statured 'east-mediterranean' type in Maykop people? People from the metallic-agricultural complex of BMAC passed through South Caspian westwards into N-W Caucasus? Were the Zagros people OF THE TIME of the same human precise sub-stock?
I already said I think ligneages to developpe and diversify need number and space (separation, drifts, founder effects ...). Zagros cannot provide all that and create 5 or 6 great Y ligneages, mixed at first, and segregate them on place and send them towards every corner of the world, all that in a short while... So I'm "perplexe".
An East Caspian (rather Southeast?) impulse (which could explain the heavy presence of R1b and R1a at some stages in I-E history) and a two ways FIRST dispersion (South and North the Caspian) could MAYBE resolve the question of the 2 Y-R1B-L23 separated ligneages "sons"? The 'gedrosia' phantom in North(west)ern European populations could also have its explanation here? I think R1a (even Z93)in fact was rather in middle-east of the Steppes before getting South-West in Iran... the steppic auDNA of their more Western cousins could explain the lack of 'gedrosia' in today Baltic-N-Slavic populations, knowing this component was already greatly erased among R1b predecessors during their expansion for the same reasons.
Sorry. I think at loud voice!

Excellent and helpful observations, Moesan. Thanks.

MOESAN
09-06-16, 23:19
to my new "brother" Goga


Goga :
Brotheryou are wrong. You forgot these studies?

Cited by Goga :
" Hequestioned the resemblance between the Maikop crania from Evdyk I andthose from Syezzheye and Zadono-Avilovsky; and he believed the formerto resemble crania from the Caucasus, the Near East,and Southwestern Central Asia, being closest to those fromSamtavro, Georgia, and Ginchi, Dagestan (Khokhlov, 2002).
Moesansays : She compared a Maykop skull to other cultures skulls, andfound, yes, a global resemblance to southern europoid types, nothingmore.

Citedby Goga :
T.I.Alekseyeva (2004) measured a male skull from mound 13 burial 5 atNezhinskaya near Kislovodsk (the plastic reconstruction of thisindividual’s appearance was made by L.T. Yablonsky), as well as twocrania (male and female) from mound 70 burial 1 at Zamankul inNorthern Ossetia. All these crania came from “Maikop–Novosvobodnaya” burials and were attributed to the Mediterraneanvariety of the Southern Caucasoid type which was distributed inArmenia, Georgia, Iran, and Mesopotamia during the Chalcolithic andEarly Bronze Age. The heterogeneity of the Maikopgroup in Alexeyeva’s opinion may be due to individual variability,but also to admixture with the natives of the southeastern Europeansteppes (Alekseyeva, 2004).
Moesansays : the alleged type at this time (Chalco/EBA) were,according to old descriptions, on the irano-afghan type, not too farfor old 'eurafrican' type. It tends to partially exclude otherNear-Eastern types, more crossed with western gracile'mediterraneans' of European and Anatolia Neolithic. Only Georgiawould be erroneous ?
Citedby Goga:
Insum, the results of the multivariate analysis suggest that Maikoppeople are distinct from all the contemporary and later EasternEuropean groups of the steppe and forest-steppe zones.This provides an additional argument in favor of the hypothesis thatMaikop burials in Kalmykia attest not merely to the cultural impactof the Maikop community on the steppe tribes (Munchaev, 1994: 168);rather, they were left by a separate group which was unrelated to thelocal Pit Grave population by origin. The SouthernCaucasoid trait combination revealed by the Maikop series is somewhatsimilar to that shown by the contemporaneous groupsof the Northern Caucasus and southern Turkmenia.Clearly, this does not imply a directconnection with any of these regions.
However,the isolated position of the Maikop group in Eastern Europe, itsvague resemblance to the Southern Caucasoids ofthe Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia, and theNear Eastern cultural affinities of Maikop and Novosvobodnaya(Munchaev, 1994: 170) indirectly point to Near Eastern provenance."
Moesan says:
Kazarnitskycited the above lines you cited yourself. An did not say, as I wrotemyself, the contrary concerning demic moves frome elsewhere thanthe Steppes. Here we agree.The fact remains that on some figure provided by him, the moreprecise evidence(distance) I cited appears clearlyand not the fruit of myimagination : Maykop of Novosvobodnaya is closer to EasternCaspian than to Western Caspian=Caucasus of the same time.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/...zarnitsky.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.html)




Gogacited
" Uruk migrants in the Caucasus »
Duringthis period the South Caucasus experienced two powerful waves ofMiddle Eastern expansion: the first at the time of Late Neolithicculture of Sioni in the 4th-5th millennia B.C., and the second at theperiod of Tsopi culture in the Late Neolithic Age, at the end of the5th and the first half of the 4th millennium B.C., which is known asthe Uruk expansion era. Later, in the second half of the 4th andthroughout the 3 rd millennium B.C., during the Early Bronze Age theKura-Araxes culture of the Caucasus spread throughout the greaterpart of the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, northern parts of Iran,Middle East and even Europe. "
Moesansays : the « climbing northwards » of someNear-Eastern people (Uruk?), proved by archeology atleast at the cultural level, could explain the less typically'west-asian' ('gedrosia'?) aspect and surely autosomal inheritage ofsome Caucasus populations (lost of a part of ancient CHG?). I see(guess) rather the Kura-Araxes people as linked to East caspian, moreCHG and less « near-eastern-drifted » and cause of theMaykop people situation. Other itching question : areKura-Araxes people PIE-speaking : nothing less sure !...So, were Maykop people the PIE language promotors ???
Idon't find back the abstract I red and the two axis plotting I've athand on paper, but I verified it and confirm my post, whatever thevalue of sorts of things (I think they have some worth concerningpopulation in close enough place and time). Here under a smallestabstract confirming that even if close enough compared to more remoteplaces, Caucasus is not identical to Maykop.
Samefor Turkmenistan places, spite I insist on his plotting they werecloser to Maykop. I don't know how to interprete his « parallels… to the Near East » in this precise phrase. A generalstatement about 'mediterranean' vague resemblances ?TheMaikop crania revisited (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251692357_The_Maikop_crania_revisited) :


ABSTRACT: Measurements of crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikop culture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males, new and previously published, were compared with those concerning chronologically and geographically related people using the canonical variate analysis. The Maikop series turned out to be isolated and no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups, either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe or from the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia. While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are too few to warrant definite conclusions.
Nopreview · Article · Mar 2010 · Archaeology Ethnology andAnthropology of Eurasiahttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0aHB wgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMj IyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCAAeAB4DASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJ xFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3O Dk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIW Gh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx 8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4 Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3 Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRM iMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2N zg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goO EhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPEx cbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3 Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD0LPJq5HZRxQrJeXBhEgBRQu5yPWqTc7h V/Vv P0OG/dvGjL9MYqhEVzaeRGs0cwmhckBwMYb0IPQ1X5q3F8ui3Jbo8iK PqM5qmOpoAurFb29tFcXCGV5clI84XaDjJp739tcxrFc2gVU4i aA7So9Oajvx 6sR/wBMP6mqeKANA6hB5awfYY2tk6KSd fXI71FdQxJDHc227yZCRtcZKkds1Uq5KN2goPS5P8A6DQB/9k= A.A. Kazarnitsky (https://www.researchgate.net/researcher/2024358412_A_A_Kazarnitsky)

MOESAN
09-06-16, 23:30
ABSTRACT: Measurementsof crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikopculture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males,newand previously published,were compared with those concerning chronologically andgeographically related people using the canonical variate analysis.The Maikop series turned out to be isolatedand no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups,either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe orfrom the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia.While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are toofew to warrant definite conclusions
KAZARNITSKY 2010 -

the archeological links between successive populations doesn't prove tight genetic connexions. But it's true Grigoryev linked archeology of 2000BC and subsequent Steppes to southeastern Caspian, linking this last archeologic region to Mesopotamia North Near-Ëast previous stages: difficult to say when and where to link OR NOT to link archeological artefacts to ethnicity. Always the same problem and it's the cause of my prudence.
Goga, I seriously NEED the scientific data concerning your constant affirmations of Y-R1 born in Iranian plateau or, why not, Zagros. I'm not very found of this kind of affirmations: have you found EDEN? Some conclusions about "variance" old calculations and branching dates deserves more caution.

MOESAN
09-06-16, 23:38
ABSTRACT: Measurementsof crania of people associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikopculture of the Northern Caucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males,newand previously published,were compared with those concerning chronologically andgeographically related people using the canonical variate analysis.The Maikop series turned out to be isolatedand no close parallels to it were found among the Bronze Age groups,either from the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe orfrom the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia.While certain parallels seem to point to the Near East, they are toofew to warrant definite conclusions

MOESAN
09-06-16, 23:44
Maikopcrania revisited :
Abstract :Measurements of crania ofpeople associated with the Early Bronze Age Maikop culture of theCaucasus are analyzed. Data on Maikop males, newand previously published,were compared to those concerning chronologically and geographicallyrelated people using the canonical variate analysis. The Maikopseries turned out to be isolated and noclose paralles to it were found among the Bronze Age groups, eitherfrom the steppe and forest-steppe zones of Eastern Europe orfrom the Caucasus and Southwestern Central Asia.Whilecertain parralels seem to point to the Near East, they are too few towarrant definite conclusions.
Kazarnitsky2010

MOESAN
09-06-16, 23:48
GOga, could you provide us the scientific data about Y-R1 birth in Iranian Plateau (or eternal Zagros?). You know I take with caution the dates for branchings of ligneages and clades, and the "variance" story. Thanks by advance.

holderlin
11-06-16, 04:54
Btw, it is because of countries like the Nederlands, my ancestral Kurdistan is NOT a safe country for me.

They should stop protecting our enemies, like they should stop protecting the Turks & Arabs. And helping our enemies in killing the Kurds.


Countries like the Nederlands are interested in making blood money with helping to kill innocent people, women, children.


Let me give an exapmle, countries like the Netherlands started a war in Syria only to steal money/oil/wealth from that region. So, those coutnries shouldn't wine when people from where the western countries created chaos, migrate into the countries like Holland.


It is because of Holland, Germany, France, US etc. there are wars in the Middle East. NEVER forget that.


What are these OIL companies doing in Kurdistan???? To HELL with them!


Austria
OMV

Canada
Groundstar Resources
Niko Resources
Shamaran Petroleum
Talisman Energy
Vast Exploration
WesternZagros

Norway
DNO International

United Kingdom
Afren
Gulf Keystone Petroleum
Perenco
Sterling Energy

United States
Aspect Energy
Chevron
Hess
Hunt Petroleum
Murphy Oil Corporation


http://www.iraq-businessnews.com/list-of-international-oil-companies-in-iraqi-kurdistan/



That's why I hate capitalism, liberalism, imperialism. Different faces of the same coin. BECAUSE of capitalism, liberalism, imperialism I must to live in diaspora now!

For the first time ever I agree with the majority of one of your posts

But F*ck off about lumping all of those theoretical systems of governments into the cause of the Middle East. It was actually a Parliamentary monarchy that sent the region down the road it's been on and it wasn't until Nixon that the US began to love the invading Israelis.

Goga
11-06-16, 06:00
For the first time ever I agree with the majority of one of your posts

But F*ck off about lumping all of those theoretical systems of governments into the cause of the Middle East. It was actually a Parliamentary monarchy that sent the region down the road it's been on and it wasn't until Nixon that the US began to love the invading Israelis.
Parliamentary monarchy? Parliamentary monarchy is not evil. Parliamentary monarchy is just where a monarch is a head of a government. It can be a highly ceremonial position where a monarch has no power. But the monarch has to be inviolable, right?


But when 'parliamentary monarchy' is at the service of the 'money' (capitalism) and imperialism, it is EVIL!


Be it monarchy, be it republic, be it dictatorship/aristocracy, if they serve money (not the people) and expansion means generating more money by stealing and robbing other places (= imperialism), then all of them are EVIL!


Parliamentary monarchies can be good if they serve the people. To escape anarchy and state of nature, think of Hobbes and creation of Leviathan or even John Locke. Hobbes was pro-Monarchy.

Even dictatorship can be a good system without corruption and and when only 'serving the people' should be the most important priority, think of maybe Plato or Nietzsche (most people are stupid and they need a shepherd who leads them).


But capitalism / imperialism / liberalism (that of Adam Smith and Dutch/Germanic Protestant Ethic mentioned by Max Weber) are EVIL and they serve only the capital/money...

skaheen15
11-06-16, 23:04
"Andronovo monkeys"

??????????

holderlin
12-06-16, 02:18
GOga, could you provide us the scientific data about Y-R1 birth in Iranian Plateau (or eternal Zagros?). You know I take with caution the dates for branchings of ligneages and clades, and the "variance" story. Thanks by advance.

He just knows it bro

I see him as Alan's poorly trained bulldog

holderlin
12-06-16, 03:24
Parliamentary monarchy? Parliamentary monarchy is not evil. Parliamentary monarchy is just where a monarch is a head of a government. It can be a highly ceremonial position where a monarch has no power. But the monarch has to be inviolable, right?

Yes, but this is the system that used world wide colonialism to exploit resources and hold military advantages. That's all I was saying. You made a broad statement about what I assumed to be developed Western Democracies in general, so I specified the root of Western/"Anglo" influence in the Middle East. (French too)


But when 'parliamentary monarchy' is at the service of the 'money' (capitalism) and imperialism, it is EVIL!


Be it monarchy, be it republic, be it dictatorship/aristocracy, if they serve money (not the people) and expansion means generating more money by stealing and robbing other places (= imperialism), then all of them are EVIL!

I don't believe in "EVIL", sorry. "Good" and "evil" are relatively new ideas. All governments must compete for resources and all governments are vulnerable to the influence of money. Regarding the world's resources, it's only very recently that we started requiring this competition to abide by international standards or laws. It's all relative.


Parliamentary monarchies can be good if they serve the people. To escape anarchy and state of nature, think of Hobbes and creation of Leviathan or even John Locke. Hobbes was pro-Monarchy.

Even dictatorship can be a good system without corruption and and when only 'serving the people' should be the most important priority, think of maybe Plato or Nietzsche (most people are stupid and they need a shepherd who leads them).


But capitalism / imperialism / liberalism (that of Adam Smith and Dutch/Germanic Protestant Ethic mentioned by Max Weber) are EVIL and they serve only the capital/money...

It's absurd to say that a dictatorship would ever be preferable to some form of democracy so you really disqualified yourself from this discussion, but I'll give you that authoritarian systems CAN be good for awhile with the right person in charge. The problem is that you can get another person in charge who decides to kill Kurds, or something like that. You're saying that democracies, "capitalism / imperialism / liberalism", are evil, but then you're saying that other forms of government can be good or bad. It's nonsensical and ridiculous. The United States' ability to exploit the region for oil is only because of the authoritarian governments that traditionally hold power in the region. This would not happen if the region was composed of stable democracies such as those embodied in e.g. Adam Smith and Max Weber's ideas. BTW "Imperialism" is a country that is acting like an empire, so when you say imperialism is evil you are also necessarily saying that empires are evil.

Democracy isn't the best system, it's the only system. We know of no other system that will prevent tyranny. No sane, educated person with all of his faculties would argue against democracy in favor of authoritarianism. This is THE lesson of the modern period. You can't have a democracy without property rights and some level of a free market. Because of this it is always a balancing act between a plutocracy/oligarchy (plutocratic oligarchy?) and Democratic socialism, especially in the US where we've seen a pull towards plutocracy in the last 50 years. The wealth gap has risen while we've relied on imperialistic means to maintain economic control. Basically big business and the extremely wealthy have exerted more influence on the government, but it will swing the other way. Believe me, this is preferable to a world of competing empires.

The best examples right now are in Scandinavia. You only need look at quality of life data. There is no debate.

If we have to assign a root cause to the problems in the modern Middle East it would be the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting power vacuum. The British and French filled this vacuum and the rest is history. The Ottomans had a long history of expanding into Europe so what do you expect? What else might have happened?

The Ottomans could have survived until WWII, or perhaps even existed until now in some form. Would that have been preferable? I don't think so. Maybe the British and French should have allowed the region to decide nation borders based on ethnicity? Or facilitated/sanctioned such a thing? This is the best plan, but I'm pretty sure we're trying to do this now and still failing at it. Who's to say that they would have even been capable of such a thing back then or that it would have turned out well? The British and French could have left and let them fight among themselves to settle things, but who's to say how that would have turned out? They could still be fighting today (they kind of are actually), or the region could have come under the yoke of another foreign power resulting in god knows what.

None of these alternative histories necessarily lead to a stable middle east with a sovereign Kurd Nation.

Also, you should know that Nietzsche and Plato are, quite literally, opposing philosophies. This is most clearly explained in Twilight of the Idols.

Goga
12-06-16, 12:32
GOga, could you provide us the scientific data about Y-R1 birth in Iranian Plateau (or eternal Zagros?). You know I take with caution the dates for branchings of ligneages and clades, and the "variance" story. Thanks by advance.It is very easy.

Where we can find ancient R1a*, ancient R1b* AND R2. R2 is the 'brother clade' of R1*.

R2 is very high in SouthCentral Asia and Northern India. But in that part of the area as far as I know we can't find really ancient R1b* and R1a*. While there is ancient R1b* and R1a* on the Iranian Plateau.

R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau is OLDER and more diverse than in SouthCentral Asia and Northern India.

And there is also R2 on the Iranian Plateau.


That's why I'm sure that R1* has to be from somewhere between SouthCentral Asia and the Zagros Mountains. Why? because on the Iranian Plateau we can find ancient R1b*, R1a* AND R2 Y-DNA haplogroups...

sonici
12-06-16, 13:55
I think he misunderstood you.

What you told me, I've heard also many times from my family members. So, I'm 100% sure you meant it good.


But there is one thing. The only opportunity for me to be in Kurdistan is to fight for PKK or to fight for Ezdi Kurds in Shengal. At this moment they need me there only as a 'soldier'.

But the problem is, I'm not a soldier/warrior. I've family members who fight with PKK against the Turkic Muslims (DAESH) and Arab Muslims (DAESH) on the frontline. So my family is doing its duty. And there are 50 million Kurds, so I'm sure that among those 50 million Kurds there are many million natural born warriors much better than me who are willing to fight.

At this moment, as a NON-Muslim, it's very dangerous for me to be in Kurdistan. I think I would be dead within 1 week. Less than 2 years ago, Sunni Muslims committed a GENOCIDE on my people! I'm contributing to Kurdistan my 'own' way and as long I do exist I will continue contribute to Kurdistan.

After the war Kurdistan needs intellectuals (high educated people) and people who will rebuild Kurdistan from the ashes. But don't think that my family doesn't give blood for Kurdistan, we did and we still do!



And soon we wil be victorious! Turanic Turks and Turkey are almost defeated. They will go back to the Altai, where they are from and do belong. It is just a matter of time..
Hahahah! Goga, it writes you're R1a, tell us if you really got a Y-DNA test..
You say Turkish are defeated by forgetting: 500-550 Turkish martyr and +5.200 pkk(Ultra Kurdish nationalist) death during 2015-2016 Turkia-pkk conflict. Be a real man, not a daydreamer. Come to us with your sources.
Turkish army will soon annex the Mosul and Kirkuk, if Turkia wasn't then Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq) would be destroyed by the Iraq and Iran, you're economically dependent to Turkish. However, at first, I don't think hostility to Kurdish people because their majority are Muslim people, that's major cause why Turkia has good relations with Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq). Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq) and Turkia has common benefits in the region as two Muslim states, united against pkk.

bicicleur
12-06-16, 14:26
It is very easy.

Where we can find ancient R1a*, ancient R1b* AND R2. R2 is the 'brother clade' of R1*.

R2 is very high in SouthCentral Asia and Northern India. But in that part of the area as far as I know we can't find really ancient R1b* and R1a*. While there is ancient R1b* and R1a* on the Iranian Plateau.

R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau is OLDER and more diverse than in SouthCentral Asia and Northern India.

And there is also R2 on the Iranian Plateau.


That's why I'm sure that R1* has to be from somewhere between SouthCentral Asia and the Zagros Mountains. Why? because on the Iranian Plateau we can find ancient R1b*, R1a* AND R2 Y-DNA haplogroups...

R1a & R1b & R2 were north of Hindu Kush 30-15 ka, check Kupruk cave
R1a & R1b arrived south of Caspian Sea 15 ka, check Hoti & Belt caves
From there R1a & R1b dispersed, check 14 ka Villabruna.
6.5 ka when PIE was spoken R1-M269 and R1b-M73 were on the Pontic steppe, somewhere between Don and Ural rivers.
5 ka R1a-M417 was a herder in the forest-steppe zone north of the Pontic steppe who adopted IE language and IE way of life
that is the most parsimonious explanation

Angela
12-06-16, 14:54
R1a & R1b & R2 were north of Hindu Kush 30-15 ka, check Kupruk cave
R1a & R1b arrived south of Caspian Sea 15 ka, check Hoti & Belt caves
From there R1a & R1b dispersed, check 14 ka Villabruna.
6.5 ka when PIE was spoken R1-M269 and R1b-M73 were on the Pontic steppe, somewhere between Don and Ural rivers.
5 ka R1a-M417 was a herder in the forest-steppe zone north of the Pontic steppe who adopted IE language and IE way of life
that is the most parsimonious explanation

I think you've nailed it on the head, Bicicleur, and the ancient dna will bear this out.

Angela
12-06-16, 15:11
Yes, but this is the system that used world wide colonialism to exploit resources and hold military advantages. That's all I was saying. You made a broad statement about what I assumed to be developed Western Democracies in general, so I specified the root of Western/"Anglo" influence in the Middle East. (French too)



I don't believe in "EVIL", sorry. "Good" and "evil" are relatively new ideas. All governments must compete for resources and all governments are vulnerable to the influence of money. Regarding the world's resources, it's only very recently that we started requiring this competition to abide by international standards or laws. It's all relative.



It's absurd to say that a dictatorship would ever be preferable to some form of democracy so you really disqualified yourself from this discussion, but I'll give you that authoritarian systems CAN be good for awhile with the right person in charge. The problem is that you can get another person in charge who decides to kill Kurds, or something like that. You're saying that democracies, "capitalism / imperialism / liberalism", are evil, but then you're saying that other forms of government can be good or bad. It's nonsensical and ridiculous. The United States' ability to exploit the region for oil is only because of the authoritarian governments that traditionally hold power in the region. This would not happen if the region was composed of stable democracies such as those embodied in e.g. Adam Smith and Max Weber's ideas. BTW "Imperialism" is a country that is acting like an empire, so when you say imperialism is evil you are also necessarily saying that empires are evil.

Democracy isn't the best system, it's the only system. We know of no other system that will prevent tyranny. No sane, educated person with all of his faculties would argue against democracy in favor of authoritarianism. This is THE lesson of the modern period. You can't have a democracy without property rights and some level of a free market. Because of this it is always a balancing act between a plutocracy/oligarchy (plutocratic oligarchy?) and Democratic socialism, especially in the US where we've seen a pull towards plutocracy in the last 50 years. The wealth gap has risen while we've relied on imperialistic means to maintain economic control. Basically big business and the extremely wealthy have exerted more influence on the government, but it will swing the other way. Believe me, this is preferable to a world of competing empires.

The best examples right now are in Scandinavia. You only need look at quality of life data. There is no debate.

If we have to assign a root cause to the problems in the modern Middle East it would be the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the resulting power vacuum. The British and French filled this vacuum and the rest is history. The Ottomans had a long history of expanding into Europe so what do you expect? What else might have happened?

The Ottomans could have survived until WWII, or perhaps even existed until now in some form. Would that have been preferable? I don't think so. Maybe the British and French should have allowed the region to decide nation borders based on ethnicity? Or facilitated/sanctioned such a thing? This is the best plan, but I'm pretty sure we're trying to do this now and still failing at it. Who's to say that they would have even been capable of such a thing back then or that it would have turned out well? The British and French could have left and let them fight among themselves to settle things, but who's to say how that would have turned out? They could still be fighting today (they kind of are actually), or the region could have come under the yoke of another foreign power resulting in god knows what.

None of these alternative histories necessarily lead to a stable middle east with a sovereign Kurd Nation.

Also, you should know that Nietzsche and Plato are, quite literally, opposing philosophies. This is most clearly explained in Twilight of the Idols.

If I could give you two thumbs up, I would. :)

Goga
12-06-16, 17:23
Hahahah! Goga, it writes you're R1a, tell us if you really got a Y-DNA test..
You say Turkish are defeated by forgetting: 500-550 Turkish martyr and +5.200 pkk(Ultra Kurdish nationalist) death during 2015-2016 Turkia-pkk conflict. Be a real man, not a daydreamer. Come to us with your sources.
Turkish army will soon annex the Mosul and Kirkuk, if Turkia wasn't then Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq) would be destroyed by the Iraq and Iran, you're economically dependent to Turkish. However, at first, I don't think hostility to Kurdish people because their majority are Muslim people, that's major cause why Turkia has good relations with Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq). Kurdistan(autonomous to Iraq) and Turkia has common benefits in the region as two Muslim states, united against pkk.
I did a DNA test many years ago on 23andme. I 've posted my results on this site and everywhere else.


Maybe max real 100 PKK Aryan freedom guerilla warriors died for our beloved Aryan state, Kurdistan. Turks are so desperate they are inventing the stattistics.

PKK Aryan warriors destroyed more than 3000 Turkish terrorists.

Even the Western Media doesn't fall into the Turanic propaganda. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36094549


Turkye is finished, soon you have to go to your beloved homeland the Altay Mountains where you are from. Just wait and see. Turkye is finished big time.


VERY soon I will wish you the best with your new life in you ancient homeland around the Altai Mountains, next to China. Bye, bye

Goga
12-06-16, 17:27
R1a & R1b & R2 were north of Hindu Kush 30-15 ka, check Kupruk cave
R1a & R1b arrived south of Caspian Sea 15 ka, check Hoti & Belt caves
From there R1a & R1b dispersed, check 14 ka Villabruna.
6.5 ka when PIE was spoken R1-M269 and R1b-M73 were on the Pontic steppe, somewhere between Don and Ural rivers.
5 ka R1a-M417 was a herder in the forest-steppe zone north of the Pontic steppe who adopted IE language and IE way of life
that is the most parsimonious explanation
R1b* and R1a* are MUCH MORE diverse on the Iranian Plateau diverse than in South Central Asia & Northern India. We have many studies about it.

I belong to the most ARCHAIC R1a* has been found in Kurdistan. And I'm the best example.

+ there is also R2 on the Iranian Plateau.

+ Ancient R1a* and R1b* is the most DIVERSE on the Iranian Plateau.



R1* has to be from the same place where we are finding ancient R1a*, R1b* AND R2 en even some other P*-something haplogroups.

sonici
13-06-16, 12:29
I did a DNA test many years ago on 23andme. I 've posted my results on this site and everywhere else.


Maybe max real 100 PKK Aryan freedom guerilla warriors died for our beloved Aryan state, Kurdistan. Turks are so desperate they are inventing the stattistics.

PKK Aryan warriors destroyed more than 3000 Turkish terrorists.

Even the Western Media doesn't fall into the Turanic propaganda. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36094549


Turkye is finished, soon you have to go to your beloved homeland the Altay Mountains where you are from. Just wait and see. Turkye is finished big time.


VERY soon I will wish you the best with your new life in you ancient homeland around the Altai Mountains, next to China. Bye, bye

So send the test to here again to verify what you said.. continue to believing your ultra Kurdish nationalist propaganda, it's not even enough to satisfy yourself. As the Kurds are multi-ethnic people, Muslim Kurds were forced by pkk and Turkish army soldiers and Turkish polices have rescued them by city operations and army airstrikes to Northern Iraq, as the result, +5200 ultra Kurdish nationalist(so-called) pkk militants were eliminated by Turkish Armed Forces.
Muslim Kurdish people support Turkish Armed Forces: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QtPkhLLX2w

"BBC" is an ultra-British propaganda company, you forgot, how we Turkish crushed them British in Gallipoli war, they're still hurt and their hurt feelings make them to create such fictive news.
Another:
The thing which Ultra Kurdish nationalist(so called) pkk commander has explained to Kurdish channel on Turksat "They're bombing us with artillery, bombs(like bunker busters), grenade launchers, the situation is very bad, We've been finished, there are about 100-200 youngs(militants) in hand of us, I don't know what we will do with them, if they(pkk) will get them ....(crying)"The video about:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AvavLOB6x4
2016: pkk(so called: ultra Kurdish nationalist) is defeated again!!! pkk is ended.
WIKI:

Goga
13-06-16, 18:56
What are you doing here? If I was you I would already start my backs, because very soon you will go back to your original homeland, the Altai Mountains.

Daesh/Turks (Turanic & Arabic Sunni Muslim terrorists) are getting completely destroyed by the Aryan Kurds.

It is funy that you are saying that you are about conquer the world

Either you are delusional of you are desperate with your childish and retard propaganda and wishful thinking.

This are my last words to you, I don’t like to talk with the Turks. Turanic Turks don’t deserve my precious Aryan time.


I would rather go to a toilet than talking/discussing to/with a Turanic Turks.


I'm an Aryan Ezdi, my daddy is an Aryan Ezdi, his daddy was an Aryan Ezdi, daddy of my great, grand daddt was an Aryan Ezdi, and that goes back to the Sumerian times native to Kurdistan.


Do you know who you are and where ancestors and your language are from?


Bye bye Turkey, Turkey…

Goga
13-06-16, 21:43
"Andronovo monkeys"

??????????Yeah, monkeys. Why? I'll tell you why:

Compared to their neighbors Andronovo folks were really uncivilized, backward/stupid people with lower and much more primitive culture.

China with its thinkers/philosophers to the east was much, much, mcuh more advanced than Andronovo. And East Aryan Zoroasrian BMAC folks who invaded the Indus Valley were also much more highly advanced people, compared to those 'monkeys' in the Steppes.


There is a new study I came across on www.anthrogenica.com (http://www.anthrogenica.com) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7459-The-genetic-landscape-of-Iran-and-the-legacy-of-Zoroastrianism&p=163458#post163458) that is saying that the ancient East Iranian Zoroastrian people were similar to the Neolithic Iranian samples. We know today that those Neolithic Iranian samples were full of CHG (ANE & Gedrosia). Even current modern-day Pakistani and Indian populations are highly related to the Iranian Plateau and to the ANCIENT Zoroastrians.


For me, it is a great evidence that CHG ARYANS from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Indus Valley.


Don't forget this GREAT fact that the ancient East Iranian Zoroastrians of BMAC and those who invaded the Indus Valley were similar to the Neolithic Iranian samples FROM the Iranian Plateau.


Modern-day West Iranian are a little bit different from those ancient CHG Aryans, because modern-day Iranians, like Kurds & Persians, are mixed a little bit with the ancient Anatolian farmers.


" Interestingly, analysis of ancestry patterns revealed strong affinities of the Neolithic Iranian sample to modern-day Pakistani and Indian populations, and particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians, in stark contrast to Neolithic samples from Europe. We also identify, describe and date recent admixture events in modern-day Iranian groups that have altered their current genetic make-up relative to these ancient origins. "

http://quantitative-genomics.com/programme/QuantGen16ConferenceBook.pdf


But from the ancient samples we know that ancient Iranian Plateau folks were not really mixed with the Anatolian Farmers. While modern-day Iranian groups (they don't mention particular groups) are a little bit different from those ancient 'more' CHG-folks. Btw, I'm sure that Kurds are much more 'pure' that the Persians. Over time Persians even lost an ergativity construction in their language.

Kurdish language is more pure and closer to the ancient Aryan source than Persian. After so many thousands of years, Kurdish has still en ergativity construction, while Persian (Farsi) lost an ergativity during the Middle-Farsi times..


Ancient East Iranian Zoroastrian Aryans were very close to the Neolithic CHG Iranians.


This is game, set, match for those who believe that Aryans were NOT native to the Iranian Plateau! Ancient Zoroasttrian Aryan samples are the last nail in the coffin of their wild fantasies.


From now on the 'Iranian CHG' auDNA is forever associated and linked with/to the ancient Aryan people, who brought civilizations into the Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley! CHG = ANE (Gedrosian), ANE could be actually native to the Iranian Plateau. But because of the Anatolian Farmer auDNA that migrated also eastwards, the CHG (ANE) auDNA diluted a little bit on it's original birthplace.

The Iranian Plateau (Southern Caspian shores/Leyla-Tepe/Northwestern Zagros) (+birthplace of Zarathustra) was Aryan, it does belong to the Aryans and it will be forever Aryan...

Angela
13-06-16, 22:10
What are you doing here? If I was you I would already start my backs, because very soon you will go back to your original homeland, the Altai Mountains.

Daesh/Turks (Turanic & Arabic Sunni Muslim terrorists) are getting completely destroyed by the Aryan Kurds.

It is funy that you are saying that you are about conquer the world

Either you are delusional of you are desperate with your childish and retard propaganda and wishful thinking.

This are my last words to you, I don’t like to talk with the Turks. Turanic Turks don’t deserve my precious Aryan time.


I would rather go to a toilet than talking/discussing to/with a Turanic Turks.


I'm an Aryan Ezdi, my daddy is an Aryan Ezdi, his daddy was an Aryan Ezdi, daddy of my great, grand daddt was an Aryan Ezdi, and that goes back to the Sumerian times native to Kurdistan.


Do you know who you are and where ancestors and your language are from?


Bye bye Turkey, Turkey…

You've been warned about insulting other ethnicities. You just got an infraction. Every time in the future that it comes to my attention that you are doing this you'll get another one. If you want to keep posting here cut it out.

A reminder to other members:

No moderator can read every post on this site. If someone is posting insults against other ethnicities or using foul language, please report it to a moderator.

Goga
13-06-16, 22:21
You've been warned about insulting other ethnicities. You just got an infraction. Every time in the future that it comes to my attention that you are doing this you'll get another one. If you want to keep posting here cut it out.
I didn't insult anybody directly. I'm just writing the facts. Maybe I'm not really politically correct, but I'm always telling the true. I'm not a politician to be polite, political correct and to fool people. I love people!

Some people think they are smart enough to force me making mistakes and break the rules. I'm never breaking the rules, because I'm always telling the true.


I'm a nobel person with high values & moral who loves the truth!


Some people, enemies of Kurdish race, want to spread their b*ll retard propaganda and censor the truth!


A reminder to Kurdish enemies:


NOBODY can censor the real truth on internet. Real truth will be always victorious above twisted lies and propaganda! This is the 21st century...

holderlin
13-06-16, 22:32
Yeah, monkeys. Why? I'll tell you why:

Compared to their neighbors Andronovo folks were really uncivilized, backward/stupid people with lower and much more primitive culture.

China with its thinkers/philosophers to the east was much, much, mcuh more advanced than Andronovo. And East Aryan Zoroasrian BMAC folks who invaded the Indus Valley were also much more highly advanced people, compared to those 'monkeys' in the Steppes.


There is a new study I came across on www.anthrogenica.com (http://www.anthrogenica.com) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7459-The-genetic-landscape-of-Iran-and-the-legacy-of-Zoroastrianism&p=163458#post163458) that is saying that the ancient East Iranian Zoroastrian people were similar to the Neolithic Iranian samples. We know today that those Neolithic Iranian samples were full of CHG (ANE & Gedrosia). Even current modern-day Pakistani and Indian populations are highly related to the Iranian Plateau and to the ANCIENT Zoroastrians.


For me, it is a great evidence that CHG ARYANS from the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Indus Valley.


Don't forget this GREAT fact that the ancient East Iranian Zoroastrians of BMAC and those who invaded the Indus Valley were similar to the Neolithic Iranian samples FROM the Iranian Plateau.


Modern-day West Iranian are a little bit different from those ancient CHG Aryans, because modern-day Iranians, like Kurds & Persians, are mixed a little bit with the ancient Anatolian farmers.


" Interestingly, analysis of ancestry patterns revealed strong affinities of the Neolithic Iranian sample to modern-day Pakistani and Indian populations, and particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians, in stark contrast to Neolithic samples from Europe. We also identify, describe and date recent admixture events in modern-day Iranian groups that have altered their current genetic make-up relative to these ancient origins. "

http://quantitative-genomics.com/programme/QuantGen16ConferenceBook.pdf


But from the ancient samples we know that ancient Iranian Plateau folks were not really mixed with the Anatolian Farmers. While modern-day Iranian groups (they don't mention particular groups) are a little bit different from those ancient 'more' CHG-folks. Btw, I'm sure that Kurds are much more 'pure' that the Persians. Over time Persians even lost an ergativity construction in their language.

Kurdish language is more pure and closer to the ancient Aryan source than Persian. After so many thousands of years, Kurdish has still en ergativity construction, while Persian (Farsi) lost an ergativity during the Middle-Farsi times..


Ancient East Iranian Zoroastrian Aryans were very close to the Neolithic CHG Iranians.


This is game, set, match for those who believe that Aryans were NOT native to the Iranian Plateau! Ancient Zoroasttrian Aryan samples are the last nail in the coffin of their wild fantasies.


From now on the 'Iranian CHG' auDNA is forever associated and linked with/to the ancient Aryan people, who brought civilizations into the Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley! CHG = ANE (Gedrosian), ANE could be actually native to the Iranian Plateau. But because of the Anatolian Farmer auDNA that migrated also eastwards, the CHG (ANE) auDNA diluted a little bit on it's original birthplace.

The Iranian Plateau (Southern Caspian shores/Leyla-Tepe/Northwestern Zagros) (+birthplace of Zarathustra) was Aryan, it does belong to the Aryans and it will be forever Aryan...

http://i.imgur.com/FOI8ERv.gif (http://imgur.com/FOI8ERv)

skaheen15
13-06-16, 22:33
Yeah, monkeys. Why? I'll tell you why:

Compared to their neighbors Andronovo folks were really uncivilized, backward/stupid people with lower and much more primitive culture.

China with its thinkers/philosophers to the east was much, much, mcuh more advanced than Andronovo. And East Aryan Zoroasrian BMAC folks who invaded the Indus Valley were also much more highly advanced people, compared to those 'monkeys' in the Steppes.




You shouldn't talk about your ancestors that way.

Goga
13-06-16, 22:39
You shouldn't talk about your ancestors that way.Impossible! My ancestors have nothing to do with Central Asia. ALL of them are native to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains.
My ancestors and their high advanced civilizations predate those Andronovo 'monkeys' by thousands of years.

Those who want those Andronovo 'monkeys', can have them. But it is not true that Andronovo 'monkeys' were my ancestors. My people, my race, my native West Iranian/Aryan-Mesopotamian religion connected to the Sumerians have nothing to do with them...

sonici
13-06-16, 22:42
What are you doing here? If I was you I would already start my backs, because very soon you will go back to your original homeland, the Altai Mountains.

Daesh/Turks (Turanic & Arabic Sunni Muslim terrorists) are getting completely destroyed by the Aryan Kurds.

It is funy that you are saying that you are about conquer the world

Either you are delusional of you are desperate with your childish and retard propaganda and wishful thinking.

This are my last words to you, I don’t like to talk with the Turks. Turanic Turks don’t deserve my precious Aryan time.


I would rather go to a toilet than talking/discussing to/with a Turanic Turks.


I'm an Aryan Ezdi, my daddy is an Aryan Ezdi, his daddy was an Aryan Ezdi, daddy of my great, grand daddt was an Aryan Ezdi, and that goes back to the Sumerian times native to Kurdistan.


Do you know who you are and where ancestors and your language are from?


Bye bye Turkey, Turkey…

You're a daydreamer ultra Kurdish nationalist and your non-Muslim people are pawn of imperialist countries in the Middle East by the way..
Edward Snowden has explained about the "daesh" that daesh founders are United Kingdom, United States of America and Israel...
As Turkia supports Syrian oppositions(Syrian Turkmens with them, our cognate) and Syrian oppositions are in war against the daesh(ISIS), as daesh bombed the Turkish cities which were close to border, caused many civilian casualties(death,wounded etc.).. as you're such ultra nationalist anti-Turkish(because you're hurt of your loser guerrillas), you'll also find a excuse for that like saying "Turkish government wants it's people to be killed", no!! my friend no!! stop being a daydreamer, the only pawn people who follow their dreams in the Middle East are ultra Kurdish nationalists(ypg-pkk supporters) ...
Turanism is a scientific ideology, what can you say about the Aryan ancestry of the general Kurdish people??!! According the genetic tests minimum %49 of the Kurds are from Y-DNA J2, which is ancient Iranian and from semitic race, the Greek majority are also belong to J2 and J2 are settled people, not nomadic like the Aryans. Aryans were steppe-nomadic and the Turkic tribes are steppe-nomadic too, stop living with Aryan dream, get scientific test and then we may talk. You didn't even send us your Y-DNA test that you're claiming you're R1a.
There is no Kurdistan, except the Barzani's region and country, stop being a daydreamer.
My ancestors are Eastern Blacksean Turkic Cumans who've been reached to Eastern Blacksea from Georgia/Caucasia. Cumans were steppe nomadic people with reddish blonde hair and blue-eyes, as my paternal grandfather had blue-eyes, I think I'm of Turkic Cuman origin. Cumans are mameluke founders and a few Eastern European dynasties are of Cuman origin.
I'll soon get a Y-DNA test but I'm probably a R1b-L23, as %30-40 of the population of Blacksea/Turkia are of Turkic Cuman origin.
"Kurd" name doesn't resemble a race, tribe, as there was no even an empire called "Kurd" in history. Turkic Cuman tribes were steppe-nomadic Turkic spekaers from Turkic Khaganate, as today Bashkir Turks have R1b-L23 genetic and R1b-L23 is called Greco-Etruscan(=Macedonian and Roman founder haplogroup), it shows some Turkic tribes are related to the Great Alexander's tribes(Macedonian empire).

skaheen15
13-06-16, 22:46
Impossible! My ancestors have nothing to do with Central Asia. ALL of them are native to the Iranian Plateau/Zagros Mountains.
My ancestors and their high advanced civilizations predate those Andronovo 'monkeys' by thousands of years.

Those who want those Andronovo 'monkeys', can have them. But it is not true that Andronovo 'monkeys' were my ancestors. My people, my race, my native West Iranian/Aryan-Mesopotamian religion connected to the Sumerians have nothing to do with them...


You are one very, very confused little fella.

Angela
13-06-16, 22:57
I didn't insult anybody directly. I'm just writing the facts. Maybe I'm not really politically correct, but I'm always telling the true. I'm not a politician to be polite, political correct and to fool people. I love people!

Some people think they are smart enough to force me making mistakes and break the rules. I'm never breaking the rules, because I'm always telling the true.


I'm a nobel person with high values & moral who loves the truth!


Some people, enemies of Kurdish race, want to spread their b*ll retard propaganda and censor the truth!


A reminder to Kurdish enemies:


NOBODY can censor the real truth on internet. Real truth will be always victorious above twisted lies and propaganda! This is the 21st century...

If you want to be noble, then stop calling the ancestors of other people "monkey's", stop writing things about preferring to do you know what than speaking to Turks.

I meant it; I won't tolerate any more of this. STOP IT!

I don't want any more anti-Kurdish propaganda either.

This is an academic thread. GET BACK ON TOPIC, or infractions are going to fly and this thread will be closed.

Goga
13-06-16, 23:08
If you want to be noble, then stop calling the ancestors of other people "monkey's", stop writing things about preferring to do you know what than speaking to Turks.

I meant it; I won't tolerate any more of this. STOP IT!

I don't want any more anti-Kurdish propaganda either.

This is an academic thread. GET BACK ON TOPIC, or infractions are going to fly and this thread will be closed.
What are you talking about? Please tell me, who are the descendants of Andronovo people? I don't really know who the direct descendants of those Andronovo folks are. They don't exist!

Andronovo people just disappeared with their DNA and are assimilated by all Central Asian people. Nobody is really a descendant of those Andronovo people. They were outsmarted, outcompeted and lost from the more advanced and more stronger cultures. Therefore Andronovo folks disappeared. Like Darwin said, it is the survival of the fittest. And Andronovo folks were not really the strongest and the smartest of their region!


So Andronovo folks are totally assimilated by many different races in Central Asia, since we don't have their language, culture, history etc...

Angela
13-06-16, 23:17
What are you talking about? Please tell me, who are the descendants of Andronovo people? I don't really know who the direct descendants of thoseAndronovo folks are. They don't exist!

Andronovo people just disappeared with their DNA and are assimilated by all Central Asian people. Nobody is really a descendant of those Andronovo people. They were outsmarted, outcompeted and lost from the more advanced and more stronger cultures. Therefor Andronovo folks disappeared. Like Darwin said, it is the survival of the fittest. And Andronovo folks were not really the strongest and the smartest of their region!


So Andronovo folks are totally assimilated by many different races in Central Asia, since we don't have their language, culture, history etc...


Last warning...back to the original topic.

holderlin
13-06-16, 23:27
What are you talking about? Please tell me, who are the descendants of Andronovo people? I don't really know who the direct descendants of those Andronovo folks are. They don't exist!

Andronovo people just disappeared with their DNA and are assimilated by all Central Asian people. Nobody is really a descendant of those Andronovo people. They were outsmarted, outcompeted and lost from the more advanced and more stronger cultures. Therefor Andronovo folks disappeared. Like Darwin said, it is the survival of the fittest. And Andronovo folks were not really the strongest and the smartest of their region!


So Andronovo folks are totally assimilated by many different races in Central Asia, since we don't have their language, culture, history etc...


Are you retarded?

Goga
14-06-16, 00:13
Are you retarded?Are you a descendant of Andronovo?

I thought you were 'reptoid'...

skaheen15
14-06-16, 00:20
Must every single thread with any remote connection to R1a and/or Indo-Iranian topics be completely ruined by this clown? Seriously, this reads like a St*rmfront thread, it's an embarrassment to the site that this crap^ is allowed to happen over and over again, year after year, because of this one moron. Jesus Christ. Can't talk about anything.

Goga
14-06-16, 00:31
Don't insult me. Jesus Christ will not help you.


It is all about thesis - antithesis - synthesis


If you come with some thesis, come with real facts! It is not my fault that you can't proof anything!

An now go back to your mommy..

holderlin
14-06-16, 02:10
Jesus

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holderlin
14-06-16, 23:11
Harappan genomes paper would be a very nice surprise in all this.

Alan
15-06-16, 02:33
Iran is considered a pivotal region in the Fertile Crescent, occupying a central space between Africa and Eurasia, and has thus been extensively studied to infer the development of the earliest human civilizations and farming settlements. From a historical and cultural perspective, this region is also of great interest as the cradle of Zoroastrianism. With reported roots dating back to the second millennium BC in Iran, Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest religions in the world and is now mainly concentrated in India, Iran, and Southern Pakistan. In this work we present novel genotype data from present-day Zoroastrians from Iran and India, along with a high coverage (10x) early Neolithic sample from Iran (7,455-7,082 BC), comparing these samples to publicly available genome-wide genotypes from >200 modern and ancient groups worldwide to elucidate patterns of shared ancestry. We apply a novel Bayesian mixture model to represent the DNA from modern and ancient groups or individuals as mixtures of that from other sampled groups or individuals, using a haplotype-based approach that is more powerful than commonly-used algorithms. Our mixture model identifies which sampled groups are most related to one another genetically, reflecting shared common ancestry relative to other groups due to e.g. admixture (i.e. intermixing of genetically distinct groups) or other historical processes. Interestingly, analysis of ancestry patterns revealed strong affinities of the Neolithic Iranian sample to modern-day Pakistani and Indian populations, and particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians, in stark contrast to Neolithic samples from Europe. We also identify, describe and date recent admixture events in modern-day Iranian groups that have altered their current genetic make-up relative to these ancient origins.


Sounds to me like a more Gedrosia (ANE?) shifted version of CHG.

epoch
17-06-16, 11:08
Well, there indeed appears to be influx from Iran to Steppe:


This led us to try one last model in which we model Steppe_EMBA as a 3-way mix of EHG, CHG, and Iran_ChL. The P-value for rank=2 is 0.241, so 3 streams of ancestry are consistent with the quadruple (Steppe_EMBA, EHG, CHG, Ira
n_ChL) and the fitted mixture proportions are 52.7% EHG, 18.1% CHG, 29.2% Iran_Ch


In other words, new Lazardis paper out.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

LeBrok
17-06-16, 16:19
Well, there indeed appears to be influx from Iran to Steppe:




In other words, new Lazardis paper out.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdfYeh, can't wait to come back home to indolge it. :)

MOESAN
17-06-16, 17:06
What are you talking about? Please tell me, who are the descendants of Andronovo people? I don't really know who the direct descendants of those Andronovo folks are. They don't exist!

Andronovo people just disappeared with their DNA and are assimilated by all Central Asian people. Nobody is really a descendant of those Andronovo people. They were outsmarted, outcompeted and lost from the more advanced and more stronger cultures. Therefore Andronovo folks disappeared. Like Darwin said, it is the survival of the fittest. And Andronovo folks were not really the strongest and the smartest of their region!


So Andronovo folks are totally assimilated by many different races in Central Asia, since we don't have their language, culture, history etc...


Vanquished people DNA don't disappear but is drown, assimilated in a new cocktail of genes. The most often.Only their ancient collective glory and name fade out. Without choosing any opinion, nothing proves to me they had not had some influence over I-E culture more southwards, or at least some cousins of them had. Do read the thread about Iran Neolithic and surveys about some subclades of Y-R1a Z93 derived in India.
You have seemingly some hard work to keep on a topic and you ought to preserve your nerves. You had a second chance here but why for?...

Alan
17-06-16, 20:20
Well, there indeed appears to be influx from Iran to Steppe:




In other words, new Lazardis paper out.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2016/06/16/059311.DC1/059311-1.pdf

HA I knew it I said it, but some people just jumped on wrong conclusions merely out of the fact that they don't like the idea of Yamna possibly being from Iranian Plateau.

Even the sentence "no direct geneflow" should have made anyone suspecious that they don't exclude indirect geneflow.


It makes archeological 100% sense. Maykop culture is descend of the Layla Tepe culture which according to archeologists derives from the Iranian Plateau.

I always said it

Iranian Plateau => Caucasus=> Steppes.

OR Eastern Iranian Plateau => Central Asia => Steppes.

Alan
17-06-16, 20:26
From the paper Iran_N(Neolithic)
Iran_N

I1945: P1(xQ, R1b1a2, R1a1a1b1a1b, R1a1a1b1a3a, R1a1a1b2a2a)


So it seems there was R Haplogroup in Neolithic Iran. Take that all you haters ^^

Edit: I see the guys at Eurogenes are still in denial X)

Alan
17-06-16, 20:38
The paper also perfectly proves my hypothesis that THREE distinct groups were living in the Near East at least by Neolithic.

A Southwestern farmer, A Anatolian farmer and a Iranian Plateau farmer/Herder group.

The Natufians were quite similar to Anatolian_Farmers but had some differences. And it seems that the Caucasian DNA in East Africa came via the Natufians rather than Anatolian_Farmers.

Alan
17-06-16, 21:02
The Natufians were full of E1b1b and CT Haplogroups. Seems like we have found the source of the Egyptian culture in Levantine Neolithic. The whole Afro_asiatic family seems to be descend from the Levantine_Neo.

Natufians and Anatolian farmers are very similar but still distinct, while Zagros farmers are significantly different from the former both.

Mesolithic Zagros H&G were more Basal Eurasian than Natufians which indicates that Basal Eurasian in fact derives from further East than South. Possibly Iranian coastle region.

And there seems to be EHG like ancestry in mesolithic Iran.

Mal'ta is modeled as ~28% Iranian Neolithic like, 15% CHG and ~35% WHG like

EHG is modeled as 80% WHG, 7% Iranian Neolithic and 10% CHG like.

bicicleur
17-06-16, 21:42
The Natufians were full of E1b1b and CT Haplogroups. Seems like we have found the source of the Egyptian culture in Natufians. The whole Afro_asiatic family seems to be descend from the Levantine Natufians.

Natufians and Anatolian farmers are slightly distinct but very close, while Zagros farmers are significantly different from the former both.

Mesolithic Zagros H&G were allot more Basal Eurasian than Natufians which indicates that Basal Eurasian in fact derives from further East than South. Possibly Iranian coastle region.

And there seems to be EHG like ancestry in mesolithic Iran.

Maybe Natufian is only E1b1b1b2-Z830, we don't know about other E1b1b subclades.

bicicleur
17-06-16, 21:44
HA I knew it I said it, but some people just jumped on wrong conclusions merely out of the fact that they don't like the idea of Yamna possibly being from Iranian Plateau.

Even the sentence "no direct geneflow" should have made anyone suspecious that they don't exclude indirect geneflow.


It makes archeological 100% sense. Maykop culture is descend of the Layla Tepe culture which according to archeologists derives from the Iranian Plateau.

I always said it

Iranian Plateau => Caucasus=> Steppes.

OR Eastern Iranian Plateau => Central Asia => Steppes.

keep in mind IE are not simply R1a/R1b, you have to narrow down to just 3 subclades : R1b-M269 and M73 and R1a-M417

Angela
17-06-16, 22:01
The paper also perfectly proves my hypothesis that THREE distinct groups were living in the Near East at least by Neolithic.

A Southwestern farmer, A Anatolian farmer and a Iranian Plateau farmer/Herder group.

The Natufians were most similar to Anatolian_Farmer but had some differences. And it seems that the Caucasian DNA in East Africa came via the Natufians rather than Anatolian_Farmers.

I gave you a shout out on the other thread. :)

Yes, they make a point of correcting the record that the "Sardinian like" input into East Africa posited by another paper is actually Levant Neolithic.

Alan
17-06-16, 22:24
Armenia_ChL (Chalcolithic Armenia)

I1407: L1a
I1632: L1a
I1634: L1a

Iran_Mesolithic (Hotu Cave)

I1293: J(xJ2a1b3, J2b2a1a1)

Iran_N

I1945: P1(xQ, R1b1a2, R1a1a1b1a1b, R1a1a1b1a3a, R1a1a1b2a2a)




Iran_LN

I1671: G2a1(xG2a1a)

Iran_ChL (Chalcolithic Iran)

I1662: J(xJ1a, J2a1, J2b)
I1674: G1a(xG1a1)

Natufians

I0861: E1b1b1b2(x E1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)
I1069: E1b1(xE1b1a1, E1b1b1b1)
I1072: E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)
I1685: CT
I1690: CT
I1949: CT

Levant_N

I0867: H2 (PPNB)
I1414: E(xE2, E1a, E1b1a1a1c2c3b1, E1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1b2b) (PPNB)
I1415: E1b1b1 (PPNB)
I1416: CT (PPNB)
I1707: T(xT1a1, T1a2a) (PPNB)
I1710: E1b1b1(x E1b1b1b1a1, E1b1b1a1b1, E1b1b1a1b2, E1b1b1b2a1c) (PPNB)
I1727: CT(xE, G, J, LT, R, Q1a, Q1b) (PPNB)
I1700: CT (PPNC)

Levant_BA

I1705: J1(xJ1a)
I1730: J(xJ1, J2a, J2b2a)

Alan
17-06-16, 22:26
keep in mind IE are not simply R1a/R1b, you have to narrow down to just 3 subclades : R1b-M269 and M73 and R1a-M417

Indo Europeans are not just R1b-M269, m73 and R1a-M417 Haplogroups anyway :) I believe these were just the "Lucky lineages". I think many other subclades and other lineages such as J went "lost" in a very patriachal society.

Alan
17-06-16, 22:30
Maybe Natufian is only E1b1b1b2-Z830, we don't know about other E1b1b subclades.

I doubt this, as I have said in the past I believe yDNA E represents a backmigration into Africa and was a lucky or dominant ineage. A and B are the proto African Haplogroups, anything below CT is Eurasian imo.


I gave you a shout out on the other thread. :)

Yes, they make a point of correcting the record that the "Sardinian like" input into East Africa posited by another paper is actually Levant Neolithic.

Can't find the other thread :)

Angela
17-06-16, 22:59
I doubt this, as I have said in the past I believe yDNA E represents a backmigration into Africa and just like in India spred wide via male dominance. A and B are the proto African Haplogroups, anything below CT is Eurasian imo.



Can't find the other thread :)

Here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32371-The-genetic-structure-of-the-world%E2%80%99s-first-farmers

It's post #12.

Tomenable
19-06-16, 12:28
keep in mind IE are not simply R1a/R1b, you have to narrow down to just 3 subclades : R1b-M269 and M73 and R1a-M417

Not sure why do you begin with M417 considering that samples of M198(xM417) have been found in IE context, for example in CWC (sample I1534 from Esperstedt dated to 2500-2400 BC was R1a-M198*). Check this map of R1a Relic Branches (but when it comes to Blue Pins - they are basal R1a-M198*, which is descended from Corded Ware culture, so this not a relic branch, only a rare one - CWC sample I1534 / ESP14 from Esperstedt was R1a1a-M198* - https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1534/ ):

The map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=50.209986%2C5.141773&spn=17.298477%2C31.15757&ptab=2&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1xoby146BKX50zmwv052UFNkqYHg

Check also FTDNA R1a Project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/default.aspx?vgroup=R1a&section=yresults

https://s32.postimg.org/nfm2j60s5/R1a_Relic_Branches.png

^ The map is incomplete because for example there are also 2 Polish samples of M198*:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32373-Polish-subclades-of-R1a-and-other-haplogroups?p=482020&viewfull=1#post482020

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69081&d=1466209304

Subclade - formed / TMRCA in years ago (according to YFull):

R1a (M420) - 22800 / 18200
R1a1 (M459) - 18200 / 14300
R1a1a (M198) - 14300 / 8500
R1a1a1 (M417) - 8500 / 5500; including:
-- R1a1a1a (L664*) - 5500 / 4700
-- R1a1a1b (Z645) - 5500 / 5000; including:
---- R1a1a1b1 (Z283) - 5000 / 5000
---- R1a1a1b2 (Z93) - 5000 / 4800

*Actually it is CTS4385->L664.

Karelian hunter lived 8800-7950 years ago (according to most recent dating), but he belonged to basal R1a1-M459* and tested negatively for R1a1a-M198 mutation which had emerged 14300 years ago - long before he lived.

This means, that Karelian hunter wasn't ancestral to 99% of modern R1a, which is all M198+ (for example among Polish people with R1a, 99.83% belong to M198+ and 99.67% to M417+ subclades). Mesolithic Karelian branch of R1a was a "dead end" which got extinct at some point, or at least it didn't suceed in multiplying. No living descendants has been found so far.

But a branch related to Karelian - YP1272 (descended directly from R1a1-M459) - has been found among men of the Szpakowski family from Belarus and among a few other men throughout the world (including one guy from Tunisia):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1272/

Apart from Bazyl Szpakowski from Belarus, also for example Ibrahim Mehrez from Tunisia has it.

Tomenable
19-06-16, 13:38
I believe yDNA E represents a backmigration into Africa

In my opinion it represents a back-migration across the Sahara, but not necessarily into Africa.

It is possible that E expanded from North Africa both into Eurasia and back across the Sahara.

IMHO those "Basal Eurasians" who had "little if any" Neanderthal admixture were mostly DE:

They likely lived from North Africa to South-West Asia, despite an "exclusively Eurasian" name:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/06/16/059311


We show that the earliest populations of the Near East derived around half their ancestry from a 'basal Eurasian' lineage that had little if any Neanderthal admixture and that separated from other non-African lineages prior to their separation from each other.

https://s31.postimg.org/3vcj0urpn/basal_Eurasians.png

Alan
19-06-16, 13:47
In my opinion it represents a back-migration across the Sahara, but not necessarily into Africa.

It is possible that it expanded from North Africa into both Eurasia and back across the Sahara.

Probably those Basal Eurasians who had little or zero of Neanderthal admixture were mostly E.

But No Haplogroup E found in Iranian Neolithic, I know as I always say we only have few samples and could indeed find some E Haplogroups in future. But than if Basal Eurasian was from Africa you would expect Natufians to have more of it, in fact however Natufians and Iranian Neolithic have similar amount and the Iran Hotu Cave sample even has the most of this admixture.

Tomenable
19-06-16, 13:57
But No Haplogroup E found in Iranian Neolithic

Maybe female-mediated admixture. But how much "Basal Eurasian" were those Iranians?

My understanding of this paper, is that Natufians were as much as ~50% Basal Eurasian.

Iranian farmers were genetically very distinct from Natufians - were they also 50% BE?

========================

Anyway - DE is the only Y-DNA haplogroup which had separated from the rest of Non-African male lineages, before that rest of Non-African male lineages started to separate from each other. There is nothing special about J or G - all of them descended from CF haplogroup. Only DE is special, because it is not descended from CF, unlike all other of Non-African Y-DNA haplogroups.

So when it comes to Y-DNA, it seems that "Basal Eurasians" were originally DE (or even just E).

On the other hand, we still don't know what were mtDNA haplogroups of "Basal Eurasians".

Tomenable
19-06-16, 14:13
in fact however Natufians and Iranian Neolithic have similar amount and the Iran Hotu Cave sample even has the most of this admixture

OK.

Well, autosomal DNA doesn't correlate very well with Y-DNA in long terms. It probably correlates better with mtDNA.

Original Basal Eurasians were probably DE, but later as this ancestry dispersed, various Y-DNA lines were carrying it.

Fire Haired14
19-06-16, 15:24
Anatolia_Neolithic might have some CHG/Iran admixture but it doesn't have a lot. Table S7.8 shows that Anatolia_Neolithic can't be explained as a mixture of our the ancient genomes sampled so far. Modelling it as Iran_N+Levant_N+WHG barely works and the result is probably pretty inaccurate. Instead Anatolia_Neolithic is like a brother to Natufians. They're very closely related and this needs to have a lot of emphasis put on it. Also it's important to notice that Levant_Neolithic is significantly closer to Anatolia_Neolithic than Natufians were, so there was gene flow between the two regions maybe because of the spread of farming.

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The most important detail from this paper is that in the Stone age there were two distinct races in the Middle East. One in Iran and Caucasus and one in Levant and Anatolia. Metal Age Middle Easterners can nicely be explained as a mixture of these two races, with minor exotic admixture(EHG in Armenia). Modern Middle Easterns will certainly also come out mostly as a mixture of these two races, but many also have exotic ancestry(African, South Asian, European, and Siberian ancestry).

Exactly what the relationship between these two races or what they're a mixture of can't be discerned. We need more ancient DNA to find out. Members in each race weren't exactly the same but they were very similar. The two races weren't completed distinct they were both a mix of Basal Eurasian and West Eurasian and shared Middle Eastern-specific ancestry that Paleo North Eurasians did not have, this ancestry includes Basal Eurasian but might include more. Their relationship between Paleo North Eurasians isn't the same. Iran/Caucasus is equally close to MA1/WHG while Levant/Anatolia is significantly closer to WHG than to MA1. Both are closer to WHG than to earlier Europeans.

Figure S4.10 models Iran_N as 38% Basal, 12.4% brother of WHG, 49.6% pre-K14 split(ANE?) and Natufian as 45% Basal, 55% cousin of WHG. These are similar to the results we've been getting with D-stats for the last 6 months. This model doesn't work though because we lack the right ancient genomes.

Alan
19-06-16, 15:27
Maybe female-mediated admixture. But how much "Basal Eurasian" were those Iranians?

My understanding of this paper, is that Natufians were as much as ~50% Basal Eurasian.

Iranian farmers were genetically very distinct from Natufians - were they also 50% BE?

Yes they were, and the Hotu Cave sample even ~60% also another thing that made the authors dubious about the African origin of Basal Eurasian is that Natufians showed no sign of more African shift than any other Eurasians. Basal Eurasians interestingly showed no or very little Neanderthal admixture which makes these "Basal Eurasians" indeed the most Basal Eurasians who didn't had mixed with Neanderthals possibly hiding in some Persian gulf or Arabian refugium.

Fire Haired14
19-06-16, 15:40
The highlight of the paper is Table S7.25, where they give a list of qpADM results they got for ancient West Eurasians. Here are results for Metal Age Middle Easterners. They make a lot of sense.

Iran_Chl: 20.2% South(Levant_N), 79.8% North(63.1% CHG, 16.7% Iran_N)
Anatolia_ChL: 67.1% South(Anatolia_N), 32,9% Iran_Chl
Armenia_Chl: 52.5% Anatolia_N, 29.2% Iran_N, 18.3% EHG.

Armenia_EBA: 60.3% CHG, 39.7% Anatolia_N
Armenia_MBA: 55.3% CHG, 34.4% Anatolia_N, 10.4% EHG
Levant_BA: 55.7% Levant_N, 44.3% Iran_Chl.

For the most part there's population continuum in Iran from Mesolithic to Chalcolithic. There's also lots of population continum in Armenia from Chalcolithic to Middle Bronze age. The Bronze age Armenian genomes we already have are very similar to modern Georgians and I think the news ones are to. IMO, Anatolia_Chl will turn out most similar to modern Cypriots and Turkish. I don't think Iran_Chl will turn out very similar to Iranians though. IMO, Iranians have a lot more "Southern" admixture(Levant_N, Anatolia_N related).

Once these ancient Middle Eastern genomes are made available and we imitate some of the techniques used in the study we'll learn a lot more about West Eurasian. An important detail I think we'll learn is who the Middle Eastern people who moved into Southern Europe after the Neolithic were. I think they came mostly from the Levant, so Levant_BA should be a good proxy.

Tomenable
19-06-16, 16:32
Basal Eurasians probably split from other Non-African humans between 88 and 65 thousand years ago.

While haplogroup J formed only 43 thousand years ago, and haplogroup G only 49 thousand ya (per YFull).

So original Basal Eurasians couldn't be J or G, because these haplogroups simply didn't yet exist.

When Basal Eurasian autosomal component emerged, there was just A, B, DE, CF and now-extinct lineages.

Also a matter of fact, all of CF carriers are admixed by Neanderthals.

Even D carriers (such as Andamanese Islanders) have this admixture, but they probably got it during expansion of D haplogroup into Eurasia (after the split from DE), rather than before the separation of haplogroups D and E from DE.

So IMO Neanderthal admixture happened after the split of DE and CF.

DE initially avoided that admixture, explaining why many Sub-Saharans with E don't have it.


who didn't had mixed with Neanderthals possibly hiding in some Persian gulf or Arabian refugium.

Most likely either in North Africa or in the Arabian Peninsula (areas without Neanderthals):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o7whQ4NzqZY/Tqm3hDPg8AI/AAAAAAAAAXI/vp2plcby-4Y/s1600/neanderthal%2Brange.jpg

Fire Haired14
19-06-16, 21:15
Basal Eurasian split like 60,000 years ago, but that doesn't mean G can't be of Basal Eurasian origin. Just as R is of Crown Eurasian origin but is 30,000 years old while Crown Eurasian formed 10,000s of years before that.