R1a in Bulgaria

Ivan Alexandrov

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Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
Y-DNA - Bulgaria
I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
I2a 20% (South Slavic)
I2b 1% (South Slavic)
R1a 18% (Slavic)
R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.
 
Haplogroup I is coming from PIE period so calling I2a as South Slavic :unsure: Am I wrong?

Can you give the source, of course if it is not in Bulgarian :grin: .


Is there anything about sub-haplogroups? It is very important.

Example maybe major sub R1b haplogroup in Bulgaria is similar with Turkmen, which shows that it is not related with Celtic genes

As Bulgarian origin Turk who is also R1a. Is there any detail about division of R1a and its sub-groups in Bulgaria?
 
Well I2a was probably not originally south slavic but today it is most common among slavic countries, specifically south slavic..which is why I labeled it is South Slavs. I don't know if this is right or not but on Eupedia this is what it says.....

Haplogroup I2 is the most common paternal lineage in former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Sardinia, and a major lineage in most Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed in Bosnia (55%, including 71% in Bosnian Croats), Sardinia (39.5%), Croatia (38%), Serbia (33%), Montenegro (31%), Romania (28%), Moldova (24%), Macedonia (24%), Slovenia (22%), Bulgaria (22%), Belarus (18.5%), Hungary (18%), Slovakia (17.5%), Ukraine (13.5%), and Albania (13.5%). It is found at a frequency of 5 to 10% in Germanic countries.

also on this site where it says


it says...
I2a Haplotype #4
This haplotype is difficult to assess because it is close to an R1a signature,
and many of the matches here may be the result of convergence. The hits in
Pakistan and Norway are particularly suspect, not just because the locales
are typically R1a, but because the DYS385a value for these is 11 - also
typically R1a. Paradoxically, the DYS385a value of 13, which is more
typical of an I haplotype, was found only among the Far East Asian hits.
 
R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain not at all common for Turkmen. As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.
 
I really don't think R1b is Turkmen at all, it is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain.

how about R1b-L23?

I suspect many different subclades of R1b because of the vicinity to the Pontic steppe but the last ones were R1b-L23 Myceneans and Dorians and Phrygians and Armenians
 
Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
Y-DNA - Bulgaria
I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
I2a 20% (South Slavic)
I2b 1% (South Slavic)
R1a 18% (Slavic)
R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.
I don't know how right it is to associate haplogroups to certain "ethnic" or linguistic groups,since we don't have genetic picture exactly how the said groups look above genetically and which genes were prevalent among them, i will say that is just wrong to sort haplogroups to linguistic groups and exonyms from written sources.That is your mistake in my opinion.


For the ancient "Bulgars" my opinion to where we can trace them archeologically and from written sources and in opinion of some others they came from the present Ukraine and Cimmerian Bosphorus roughly will illustrate with map later, The Pereshchepina Treasure was discovered in 1912 by Ukrainian peasants in the vicinity of Poltava, in village Malo Pereshchepyne.The ring of ruler Kubrat were found there,he was Heraclius ally against Avars,but what will lead to their attack later we have scarce sources.

In my opinion they were similar group to present day inhabitants of the Balkan peninsula genetically,pick the South-Slavs.

Cimmerian boshporus

map.jpg


Old Great Bulgaria as it is called roughly

Old_Great_Bulgaria_map..gif


If this can help you somehow.
 
R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain not at all common for Turkmen. As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.

it depends on what kind of R1b you are talking.
 
Well I2a was probably not originally south slavic but today it is most common among slavic countries, specifically south slavic.


I totally agree, but its sound is still like not proper for me. Maybe I am obsessive person :grin:. I hope you will understand me when you read all post.


R1b is purely Western European centered and most common in Germany, France, UK, Ireland, and Spain

If you look at this yeah, you are right.Those Bulgarians are children of Celts or other Western Europeans
Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png


However is it truth? Here is some other sub groups map

Atlanto-Celtic Branch
Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif


Italio-Celtic Branch
Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif


Iberic Branch
Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif


Balkan-Anatolia Branch
Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png


SO SUB-HAPLOGROUPS MATTERS (y)

not at all common for Turkmen.
Haplogroup_R1b_World.png


Uyghurs, Turkmens and Bashkirs are have significant R1b population, but apperantly currents researches says Turkmens are mostly Q :petrified:

As for Ancient Bulgars, there is no significant evidence of DNA suggesting evidence of them in Bulgaria today. DNA Q, the only Asian based DNA, is only 1% which is very insignificant. This makes me believe that Bulgars were not Turkic or Asian people...they may have migrated from the Caucasians or Caspian sea area but were most likely of the same of similar ethnicity to the Thracian from what I am trying to gather.

I don't believe Asian theory or Turkic. True term can be Slavized Balkanians. However the percent of genes which comes from Pro-Turks could be more. Especially Western Turkic people also have Caucasoid genetic structure.

Whatever that enough for R1b lets move to R1a:grin:
 
Here is the official DNA analysis on Bulgarians based upon 855 individuals throughout the country including the Islam areas.
Y-DNA - Bulgaria
I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
I2a 20% (South Slavic)
I2b 1% (South Slavic)
R1a 18% (Slavic)
R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)

Aside from I2a and I2b....Is the R1a in Bulgaria correct? Only 20%?? I feel like it should be higher.

That's interesting Ivan, though pretty different from the stats given here on Eupedia. R1b, J2 and even Q and R1a is lower in Eupedia statistics while G and E1b1b is higher. Also, I2b is not typically South Slavic but typically Germanic.
 
Very interesting indeed, and I found a very nice article online another research on Bulgarians concluding that they have a "Slavic-Mediterranean" gene blend. It is not letting me post the link right now because I do not have enough posts. If you google "Bulgarians Are Purely Indo-European, Not Turkic - Gene Study" you will find it, its the first one.
 
If you google "Bulgarians Are Purely Indo-European, Not Turkic - Gene Study" you will find it, its the first one.

My Friend, don't turn of your brain and start protecting mode. (y)

First of Bulgarian are lingusticly indo-european, but there is NO WAY TO BE PURELY GENETIC INDO-EUROPEAN.

I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
I2a 20% (South Slavic)
I2b 1% (South Slavic)
R1a 18% (Slavic)
R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)


Q-T-E-J2 and I1 are not indo-european which means 41% according to your research.

G2a-I2a can be found in Indo-Europeans and Pre-Indoeuropean cultures in Europe, so we need to check subhaplogroups. Example 30% of I2a is coming from ancient European genes and 70% of I2a is comimg from Indo European. But we don't know it.
late_neolithic_europe.gif


Secondly analysing and saying Turkic or not, with just looking Asian Admixture or haplogroup Q is also very incorrect method. Even the begining Turks have R1a gene and other genes. And East Asian admixture increase after centuries, and centuries till end of Mongol Invasion so it is not much at the begining.


Even still they have strong West Eurasian genetic structure. But when you focus on East Asian you are ignoring half of genetic material.
5201160f1.jpg



Some maybe R1a-z93 in Bulgaria is also coming from Central Asia

Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Eurasia.png


What do you think how much percent of Bulgarian genes related with Volga Bulgars?
 
Only 1% of genes are Q, having to any Asian relation to those Theorized Asian Bulgars. I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes, Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.
 
Only 1% of genes are Q, having to any Asian relation to those Theorized Asian Bulgars. I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes, Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.

If not mistaken I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe, that split from IJ some 25000 ybp. I do not think it can be labeled as Indo European. This is what wiki say about haplogroups in Bulgaria

Bulgarians show the highest diversity of haplogroups in Europe, marked by significant (> 10%) frequencies of 5 major haplogroups (compared to Atlantic Europe, dominated by > 50% R1b). Most Bulgarians belong to three unrelated Y-DNA haplogroups, 20% of whom to I-M423 (I2a1b), 18% to E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a) and 17.5% to R-M17 (R1a1a), but the biggest part belongs to macro-haplgoroup R

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians
 
I1 is Indo European it is Nordic and yes
,
People of I were living in Europe before Indo-Europeans. When the first Indo-Europeans came to Pontic Steps, they found I and I2 people and they mixed. However in that time, far away from the Pontic Step in the different part of Europe some people who had haplogroup I, got a mutation and became I1. Even map says, PIE met with I and I2, not I2a
old_neolithic_map.gif


Turks do have a little bit of R1a genes, but how do you think they got them? Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.

In your way, Irano-West European and a little bit Caucasian, African, Arab, Slavic, Ancient European, West Indian, Uralic... :grin: . Genetic is a new term. Before that nations were made by religions and lungustic. Genetic is crushing everything. (y)
Turkey_Y_chromosome(in_20_haplogroups).png
 
To generalize broadly, Ydna "I2" was first European H-G, then it became farmer, then it got picked up by Indo-Europeans. So, the autosomal signature was different depending on the era. Some of the newer members might want to use our search engine for some up to date information on it.
 
Today Turkey's genes are the most mixed in the world and has somewhere around 40 different halo groups.
So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.



Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..
 
Last edited:
My Friend, don't turn of your brain and start protecting mode. (y)

First of Bulgarian are lingusticly indo-european, but there is NO WAY TO BE PURELY GENETIC INDO-EUROPEAN.

I1 3% (Nordic/ Scandinavian)
I2a 20% (South Slavic)
I2b 1% (South Slavic)
R1a 18% (Slavic)
R1b 18% (Celtic, Western European)
G2a 1% (Common from Western Europe to India/East Africa)
J2 20% (Middle Eastern, believed to have been Thracian)
E1b1b 16% (Common Mediterranean/North African gene, believed to have been Thracian)
T 1% (Middle/Near Eastern)
Q 1% (Central Siberia, Central Asia)


Q-T-E-J2 and I1 are not indo-european which means 41% according to your research.

G2a-I2a can be found in Indo-Europeans and Pre-Indoeuropean cultures in Europe, so we need to check subhaplogroups. Example 30% of I2a is coming from ancient European genes and 70% of I2a is comimg from Indo European. But we don't know it.
late_neolithic_europe.gif


Secondly analysing and saying Turkic or not, with just looking Asian Admixture or haplogroup Q is also very incorrect method. Even the begining Turks have R1a gene and other genes. And East Asian admixture increase after centuries, and centuries till end of Mongol Invasion so it is not much at the begining.


Even still they have strong West Eurasian genetic structure. But when you focus on East Asian you are ignoring half of genetic material.
5201160f1.jpg



Some maybe R1a-z93 in Bulgaria is also coming from Central Asia

Haplogroup-R1a-Z93-Eurasia.png


What do you think how much percent of Bulgarian genes related with Volga Bulgars?

Intriguing info Boreas. If I may ask, in your opinion, what the original y-dna haplogroups of the original Turkic speakers were before the assimilation of other groups and their spread? So many Turkic groups nowadays have such a strong variety in haplogroups and admixture that it seems impossible to detail their genetic history or legacies.. (To put this in the context of the thread, it would help out in asserting which clades of R1a should be looked at if we want to judge the impact of the Bulgars. Note, R1a-Z93 could be Scythian as well.)
 
So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.

You means Modern Turks are Turanic(genetic) ???

Altai Mountains are also East border of Afanasevo and Andronovo cultures whose are known as Europoid, so Altai Region is not a far far a land for PIE

Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..

We are talking about genetic my friend, not lingustic. I respect your opinion, but I am not sure that you are not adding your ethnic hate into it.

Turkish has vowel harmony rules for words also it is an agglutinative language and each add changes according to vowel of the word. But as I said topic is genetic.
 
So true, many of them don’t even know who their ancestors were. Were they Arabs? Were they Greeks? Were they Armenians? Were they Georgians? Or maybe they were actually the 'real' Turks from the Altai? Most of them don't even know that. LMAO!!!


Turks are not just bi- or tri-racial, but ULTRA multi-interracial-species. More mixed than the Brazilians..


But their original homeland is in the Altai Mountains, near China. Turks are Turanic/Mongoloid people and you can see that on them. They have mostly in general still those broad faces and small (East Asian) eyes.



Their Language is East Asian, alien to West Asia. And personally I don't like it how it sounds. It sounds very strange to my ears..

Relax Goga, 99.999% of humans do not care about ancient genetics, and most people think of it as forensic related to crime and so on. Unfortunately a good number of ones that do they only became interested hoping to discover some kind of superiority in their tribe (whatever mixture that is) only to find out that we all come from Africa. Find some time to relax and have a party, as you are building too many thick walls around you, and that can be detrimental for you health. We only have one life.
 

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