Upcoming paper on the Iranian Neolithic

Angela

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"The genetic landscape of Iran and the legacy of Zoroastrianism: Comparing haplotype sharing patterns among ancient and modern day samples using a mixture model."

This is the abstract released at the conference:
http://quantitative-genomics.com/programme/QuantGen16ConferenceBook.pdf


"Iran is considered a pivotal region in the Fertile Crescent, occupying a central space between Africa and Eurasia, andhas thus been extensively studied to infer the development of the earliest human civilizations and farming settlements.From a historical and cultural perspective, this region is also of great interest as the cradle of Zoroastrianism. Withreported roots dating back to the second millennium BC in Iran, Zoroastrianism is one of the oldest religions in the worldand is now mainly concentrated in India, Iran, and Southern Pakistan. In this work we present novel genotype datafrom present-day Zoroastrians from Iran and India, along with a high coverage (10x) early Neolithic sample from Iran(7,455-7,082 BC), comparing these samples to publicly available genome-wide genotypes from >200 modern and ancientgroups worldwide to elucidate patterns of shared ancestry. We apply a novel Bayesian mixture model to represent theDNA from modern and ancient groups or individuals as mixtures of that from other sampled groups or individuals,using a haplotype-based approach that is more powerful than commonly-used algorithms. Our mixture model identifieswhich sampled groups are most related to one another genetically, reflecting shared common ancestry relative to othergroups due to e.g. admixture (i.e. intermixing of genetically distinct groups) or other historical processes. Interestingly,analysis of ancestry patterns revealed strong a!nities of the Neolithic Iranian sample to modern-day Pakistani andIndian populations, and particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians, in stark contrast to Neolithic samples from Europe. Wealso identify, describe and date recent admixture events in modern-day Iranian groups that have altered their currentgenetic make-up relative to these ancient origins
."

I think this may be a sample from the highly CHG admixed Neolithic group we've been discussing on other threads, which I've speculated may be the group which brought the Neolithic to South Asia. I hope they got the yDna to see if we're right that it has more J2.

The comment about Iranian Zoroastrians is interesting in light of the fact that most Iranians were Zoroastrians prior to the arrival of Islam, or at least that's how I remember it, although I'm no expert on this religion. Is that the case?

If that is so, it might imply some change wrought on the Iranian population groups by the arrival of Islam. I believe certain Iranian groups and families do claim descent from this new group although I know some people have been skeptical of it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a minority religion might retain more of an older genetic signature. I think that's what the Assyrian Christians did to a certain degree, and certainly a group like the Samaritans. I'll be surprised if it's a huge difference, however. I think there was probably a steady increase in more Anatolian like farmer ancestry, and then of specifically Arabian like ancestry even before Islam arrived. I could be wrong, though.

I'm sure there were other genetic influences as well, which will be very interesting to see.

Btw, this is the same group that wrote the much maligned paper on the "Aegean" Neolithic. Perhaps if they now say things that support various agendas, they'll suddenly be discovered to be very good researchers indeed. :)
 
Those ancient Zoroastrian folks were native to the Iranian Plateau, so they were definitely CHG-folks full of ANE and CHG. Because of all examined people they are the closest to 'Neolithic' Iranians.


But my question is, where are those samples are from? Were those Zoroastrians the east Iranian Plateau or west Iranian Plateau?



I believe that those who brought CHG auDNA to the Indus Valley (Pakistan & Northern India), brought not only Y-DNA hg. J2 but also Y-DNA hg. R1a-Z93 subclades to SouthCentral Asia. R1a-Z93 is not really that old in India and Pakistan.


Also, as an Ezdi Kurd, I'm of West Iranian origin. My people were NEVER Muslims. ALL my ancestors belonged to our native religion, nothing to do with Islam. My religion PRE-date Islam by thousands of years. And If you compare my DNA to other non-Ezdi Kurds, it is very similar to other Kurds.
 
This should be good.

Zoroastrianism is way older than Islam. Zoroastrianism and Brahmanism are descended from the same Indo-Iranian religion that was practiced in Andronovo at least by 2000BC. I believe it's most basic, early form was some sort of fire worship that may have begun as the PIE sun worship/diety. I'll need some google time to remind myself.
 
This should be good.
This is magnificent. Ancient Zoroastrians were CHG-folks native to the Iranian Plateau. And their religion was related to the Mesopotamian religions.

Ahura Mazda is based on the Sumerian deity Anu.


This Ahura Mazda (Kurdish/Median) is related to Mesopotamia:

13603-004-841512F2.jpg
 
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. This is just an abstract. All it says is that the Iranian Zoroastrians are the group which is most close to this ancient Iranian Neolithic sample. It's not saying there was total continuity.
 
I don't think you can connect Zoroastrianism with Mesopotamia at the early dates we speak of, but it clearly shares a common ancestor with Brahmanism.

Indo-Iranian
Vedic termAvestan termCommon meaning
*apāpāp"water," āpas "the Waters"
Apam Napat, Apām NapātApām Napātthe "water's offspring"
*aryamanaryamanairyaman"Arya-hood" (lit:** "member of Arya community")
*rtartaasha/arta"active truth", extending to "order" & "righteousness"
*athar-van-atharvanāϑrauuan"priest"
*aziahiazhi, (aži)"dragon, snake", "serpent"
*daivadaiva, devadaeva, (daēuua)a class of divinities
*manumanumanu"man"
*mi-tra-mitramithra, miϑra"oath, covenant"
*asuraasuraahuraanother class of spirits
*sarvatātsarvatatHauruuatāt"intactness", "perfection"
*sara-svnt-ihSarasvatīHaraxvaitī (Ārəduuī Sūrā Anāhitā)a controversial (generally considered mythological) river, a river goddess
*sau-ma-sauma, somahaomaa plant, deified
*sva(h)r-svarhvar, xvarthe Sun, also cognate to Greek helios, Latin sol, Engl. Sun
*vr-tra-Vrtra-verethra, vərəϑra (cf. Verethragna, Vərəϑraγna)"obstacle"
*yamaYamaYimason of the solar deity Vivasvant/Vīuuahuuant
*yaj-na-yajñayasna, object: yazata"worship, sacrifice, oblation"
 
Yeah we don't even know what language the Sumerians spoke, so I don't see how we can find cognates in IE deities.
 
Another thing:

This is a Kurdish/Median/West Iranian Ahura Mazda

With face to the WEST




While the Bacatrian (East Iranian) Ahura Mazda has a face to the EAST!







Aryan religion of Mithraism (Sun Worshippers) are also native to the Mesopotamia related to the more ancient Sumerian mythology and is actually OLDER than the Zoroastrianism. According to my people, Zarathustra was an Ezdi Kurd who abandoned his native religion and found his own religion in the East.
 
Yeah we don't even know what language the Sumerians spoke, so I don't see how we can find cognates in IE deities.
Never forget that ancient Zoroastrians were native to the Iranian Plateau full of CHG!!!



Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE' with the WINGED DISK:



http://treeoflifemeaning22.blogspot.nl/p/mesopotamian-tree-of-life.html


About the Sumerian 'TREE of LIFE':

" There are several later paintings and drawings of the Tree of Life, but this Sumerian Clay tablet (however crude it might appear) is one of the earliest, if not the first. It is among the original Sumerian Cylinders and clay tablets excavated circa 2, 500 BCE.

image001.jpg



The clay tablet is prepared by rolling the carved metal seal on wet clay, which is then baked. Once baked the tablet cannot be altered. The original Sumerian (Indo-Iranian) concept was that wisdom is likened to a tree whose fruit endows those who eat it with health and longevity. The symbol of an elixir of life had already been well established in antiquity by the Indo-Iranian cultures long before Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other cultures had the opportunity to recognise it. This 4,500 year old clay tablet shows a man and a woman seated below the Tree of Life. Behind the woman is seen a serpent allegedly ‘tempting’ the woman.

This concept was expurgated in the Bible as the tree of life in the Garden of Eden by the Jews and Christians. The Book of Genesis 3.22 mentions such a tree as 'the giver of eternal life.'
"

http://www.zoroastrian.org.uk/vohuman/Article/The Sumerian Tree of Life.htm






Indo-Iranian ancestors (Mitanni-like folks) of Vedic folks came from Kurdistan and migrated into the BMAC before invading INDIA.



If you are interested in ARYAN religions and even in my MODERN-day Aryan religion of Shefredin (for layman, the Yezidism), you should watch this masterclass by this professor:




from the vid:

image.jpg


image.jpg
 
This should be good.

Zoroastrianism is way older than Islam. Zoroastrianism and Brahmanism are descended from the same Indo-Iranian religion that was practiced in Andronovo at least by 2000BC. I believe it's most basic, early form was some sort of fire worship that may have begun as the PIE sun worship/diety. I'll need some google time to remind myself.

that is what I taught, Zoroastians are IE
then it is surprising they are similar to early neolithic
 
that is what I taught, Zoroastians are IE
then it is surprising they are similar to early neolithic
They are not just similar to early neolithic, BUT to the native Neolithic IRANIANS (full of CHG/ANE/Gedrosia). What about that, ha???


These ancient Zoroastrian samples are the nail to the coffin of the wild sciencefiction fantasies of wannabe-Aryan EuroCentric folks.

All the racists dreams of Eurocentric folks are shattered in pieces and all their twisted lies are melted like snow under the warm Aryan SUN of the Iranian Plateau!



Aryans from the Steppes? Don't make me laugh, muhahaha, no way jose! Aryans were, are and always will be native to the Iranian Plateau, the land of the GODS, the land of the Sumerians, the land of Mitanni/Kassites, the land of the mighty MEDES, the true and only Aryan people!
 
If that is so, it might imply some change wrought on the Iranian population groups by the arrival of Islam.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Zoroastrians had a lower rate of mixture with Arabs over the centuries than those who converted to Islam.
 
The abstract never said Muslim Iranians have less relation to the Neolithic Iranian than Zoroastrian Iranians, I'm sure the relationship is about the same.
 
that is what I taught, Zoroastians are IE
then it is surprising they are similar to early neolithic

Is it really surprising? The Vedas are IE too and I'm sure modern Brahmans look nothing like, say for example Andronovo samples. In fact it looks like the abstract says that Brahmans may very well resemble these Neolithic samples as well. It's doesn't change that the Avestan and Rig Veda were written in IE. There's many non-IE loanwords in Indo-Iranian as well which were no doubt taken from whatever it was that BMAC people spoke. Probably Elamite or something related.

Remember Indo-Iranians were a foreign superimposition, and almost certainly a minority in the region. It's no surprise that Iranian speakers of today might still resemble neolithic samples. It's not like in Europe where you had a ton of WHG and EHG all around. And there's actually still parts of IE speaking Europe that are mostly EEF.
 
They are not just similar to early neolithic, BUT to the native Neolithic IRANIANS (full of CHG/ANE/Gedrosia). What about that, ha???


These ancient Zoroastrian samples are the nail to the coffin of the wild sciencefiction fantasies of wannabe-Aryan EuroCentric folks.

All the racists dreams of Eurocentric folks are shattered in pieces and all their twisted lies are melted like snow under the warm Aryan SUN of the Iranian Plateau!



Aryans from the Steppes? Don't make me laugh, muhahaha, no way jose! Aryans were, are and always will be native to the Iranian Plateau, the land of the GODS, the land of the Sumerians, the land of Mitanni/Kassites, the land of the mighty MEDES, the true and only Aryan people!

It's posts like this that make me question whether or not you're real.
 
They are not just similar to early neolithic, BUT to the native Neolithic IRANIANS (full of CHG/ANE/Gedrosia). What about that, ha???


These ancient Zoroastrian samples are the nail to the coffin of the wild sciencefiction fantasies of wannabe-Aryan EuroCentric folks.

All the racists dreams of Eurocentric folks are shattered in pieces and all their twisted lies are melted like snow under the warm Aryan SUN of the Iranian Plateau!



Aryans from the Steppes? Don't make me laugh, muhahaha, no way jose! Aryans were, are and always will be native to the Iranian Plateau, the land of the GODS, the land of the Sumerians, the land of Mitanni/Kassites, the land of the mighty MEDES, the true and only Aryan people!

As you're sitting comfy in one of my countries as a refugee. Get out man.
 
Please calm down, gentlemen.

Goga...enough, or you're going to find yourself banned again.

We don't yet have this paper in front of us, and none of us has a crystal ball, so stop making pronouncements as if you do.

There would be nothing extraordinary in Iranians showing some continuity with their Neolithic ancestors. Europeans do with theirs, so why shouldn't they? We don't know precisely how much continuity is involved either for the Zoroastrians or any other Iranians. We have to wait for the paper.

Any provocative comments, no matter who makes them, will get an infraction from here on in.
 
Is it really surprising? The Vedas are IE too and I'm sure modern Brahmans look nothing like, say for example Andronovo samples. In fact it looks like the abstract says that Brahmans may very well resemble these Neolithic samples as well. It's doesn't change that the Avestan and Rig Veda were written in IE. There's many non-IE loanwords in Indo-Iranian as well which were no doubt taken from whatever it was that BMAC people spoke. Probably Elamite or something related.

Remember Indo-Iranians were a foreign superimposition, and almost certainly a minority in the region. It's no surprise that Iranian speakers of today might still resemble neolithic samples. It's not like in Europe where you had a ton of WHG and EHG all around. And there's actually still parts of IE speaking Europe that are mostly EEF.
You just forget 1 small detail. Only 1 very small detail. Those late Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya who invaded the Europe, and linguistically Indo-Europized the people of Europe were for a huge part CHG, related to those people who were ancestral to the Aryan Zoroastrians.
 
As you're sitting comfy in one of my countries as a refugee. Get out man.
Your country or maybe that of your daddy? Ohh Really? Your planet? No thanks. You have to get out first! Netherlands is at least as much mine than Canada is yours...


Get out of Canada! You are also an immigrant in Canada! Or maybe you are an Eskimo, then I'm sorry..


Do you speak Dutch? I'm sure I do speak better Dutch than you English.


As an ethnic Kurd who lives more than 25 years in Holland who has been raised in Holland, I'm much more Dutch than you ever will be!
 
Please calm down, gentlemen.

Goga...enough, or you're going to find yourself banned again.
What have I done? They are personally attacking ME. I'm not attacking them.

They are attacking me because they can't come with proper arguments, so they are desperate!


This is a discussion site and not a one way propaganda site!


The TRUE racists are showing their face, the masks are off now. And I get the blame...??
 

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