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patrizio22
13-01-16, 16:05
Hello,

I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

Please, help,

Thanks,

Regards,

Patrizio22

patrizio22
13-01-16, 21:21
Hello,

I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

Please, help,

Thanks,

Regards,

Patrizio22

Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.

The website is haplogruplarwordpress and the article is Haplogroup J1 (J1-M267)

Any opinion? I'm not really an expert.

Thanks

LeBrok
14-01-16, 00:52
Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy?
Nobody knows yet.

RobertColumbia
15-01-16, 04:01
Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.
...


Welcome to Eupedia!

I gather that you are afraid that J-Z1884 is, or should be considered to be, Semitic and/or Middle Eastern. Things don't quite work like that. Many haplogroups seem to have spent some time in the region now called the Middle East. Some were Semitic, others weren't. Some men stayed, some didn't. Some left centuries or millennia before the rise of Judaism and Islam. Some came back generations later.

As you mentioned, the branch most closely associated with Semitic peoples is a different one from the one you have. You can't simply say, "J1, oh that's Arab and/or Jewish" any more than you can say "R1b, oh that's Celtic", "I1? OMG Vikings!!11!1!one", or "R1a, must be Russian, da".

Here are some things to get you started:

Detailed SNP map of J, at the J-Z1884 node: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/
The same SNP map, at J-P58: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/
Eupedia article on J1: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

Fire Haired14
15-01-16, 05:08
Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.

My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.

EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.

patrizio22
15-01-16, 09:29
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks

Sile
15-01-16, 10:17
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks

IIRC the southern part of Marche was settled by South Picene people who had Sabellic speech but where of Sabine and sabellic stock
Marche was known in ancient times as the Picenum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picenum) territory.
North Picene was as some say from Liburnian-illyrian stock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picenum

http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/s/sabellic.html

I think the north Picene was settled later by gallic semnones tribe

patrizio22
15-01-16, 10:50
Hello. Yeah, the first settlers considered indoeuropeans were the italic tribes who came from north of the Alps 1200 years BC and occupied most of Italy. That's what they say. The gauls came from north of the Alps about 400 BC and occupied the northern Italian area up to the middle of my region which was probably previously all italic (picentes). Tuscany, on the western side, was instead still occupied by the Etruscans. So, it could be that some of those italic were not indoeuropeans after all. Thanks, I'll check out that Illyrian thing

patrizio22
15-01-16, 11:33
Ok, so, he south of the Adriatic coast was colonized by the Illyrians and apparently in that region (Puglia) they have an awful lot of J1. The Illyrians are regarded as indoeuropeans but perhaps coming from the balkans carried also J1.

Vukodav
15-01-16, 19:15
Good find: the total frequency of the haplgroup J1 is 0.7% in Italy. I really don't know much about your subclade though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe



Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.


My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.


EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.


Haplogroups J2, J1 and E1b1b have been found both in Neoltich and Mesolitich remains in Europe.

patrizio22
16-01-16, 01:27
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

RobertColumbia
16-01-16, 02:09
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

For traits that are expressed in autosomal DNA (that is, nearly all of them), there should be a half and half contribution from each parent. Due to the randomness that happens during each generation, this does not mean that you will have exactly 25% of your autosomal DNA from each grandparent, because the DNA of each of your parents was "mixed up" at the time of your conception and you might have, e.g., received more of dad's mom and mom's dad (and less of dad's dad and mom's mom) due to the "roll of the dice", as they say. 50% of your autosomal DNA still came from each parent, but that 50% might favor one grandparent or the other. Consider this analogy. Put 10 red balls and 10 blue balls in a jar, shake them up, and then draw 10 balls at random (put them back afterwards). Will you always get exactly 5 red and 5 blue out? No. Does the jar still contain an equal number of red and blue balls? Yes.

In my own family, it has been observed that my face is very similar to my father's father and that my brother's face looks similar to my mother's father. We both have y-haplogroup R-M222 and mt-haplogroup H1bi.

Sile
16-01-16, 02:10
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

the 50 -50 split is with your mother only............beyond this the split halves again and again and again.............
on your mums side it comes from maternal and paternal

Hauteville
16-01-16, 12:02
J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista.org/template/files/template/genitaly.html

http://s10.postimg.org/5smdtgvpl/Y_DNA_Ethnopedia.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

patrizio22
16-01-16, 16:13
Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated. Probably they kept coming through the bronze and even iron age. Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.

Hauteville
16-01-16, 17:32
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
Phoenicians settled in Sardinia (six colonies) and in the western tip of Sicily (two colonies) but I think they mostly carried J2 because modern Lebanon is pred J2 while some J1 there entered via Arabians (Ghassanids and muslim conquest).

Sile
16-01-16, 21:18
J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista.org/template/files/template/genitaly.html

http://s10.postimg.org/5smdtgvpl/Y_DNA_Ethnopedia.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

thanks

I read the link, but where is this chart?

Hauteville
16-01-16, 21:33
It's the italian project made by Ethnopedia Facebook page

patrizio22
16-01-16, 22:10
Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.

Hauteville
16-01-16, 22:33
Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.
I know, if you look at the percentages are similar to the Ethnopedia's table. At the same time the same studies like Boattini, Brisighelli and many others had similar percentages.

Vukodav
17-01-16, 15:53
A Vittorio questo qui è di sicuro o Dejan o Marco Sernesi. Mi ricordo che apri threads simili sulla fogna e Peyrol confermo la sua reale origine.

patrizio22
17-01-16, 17:22
Hello, my family name is Brega and is present in Italy just in milan and Ancona, in central italy. I don't which one of the two it came from. I know it existed in Milan during the middle ages. But I have just found out that, outside of Italy, there are Brega in Moldova, which is one of the hotspots of J1 along with the area of Hungary (see map of J1 in Europe). So perhaps this may be a east european J1 route from the Middle east, perhaps medieval. During the middle ages current family name already existed. Is it an absurd explanation?

Angela
17-01-16, 18:08
Patrizio 22: Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks

That isn't how it works. The genes which code for "appearance" if that's what you mean by "traits" are in your autosomal dna; they aren't carried by your mtDna or yDna. Whatever you inherit from your mother in terms of autosomal inheritance comes from all of her ancestors, male and female, and the same is true for your father. Your mtDna and yDna ancestors are only two lines out of many.

Let's take a simple example. Let's say that a person has maternal ancestry from the Cape Verde Islands. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the people there have quite a bit of SSA admixture. It shows up in autosomal tests, and also shows up in "appearance". I once went to a Cape Verdean festival in Massachusetts, and you can clearly see it in these people. However, the mtDna of some of them might be a totally unremarkable mtDna "H" subclade common in Portugal. (Of course, it could also be mtDna L3) The SSA could have entered through the paternal ancestors of the mother, or could indeed have entered through a maternal line, but not the one represented by the mtDna. Do you see how it can work?

If you follow this link you can access a lot of "beginner's guides" to the whole subject of genetic genealogy. You might find them useful.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Beginners'_guides_to_genetic_genealogy


Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.


I take it you're not an afficionado of cheese? :) Have you ever heard of Roquefort, Manchego, or, if you're in a goat cheese mood, feta, chèvre (Bucheron), garrotxa...well, I could go on and on. Spain is actually the largest producer of sheep cheeses. Are you going to attribute it to J1 sheep herders? Bucheron is made in the Loire Valley, feta in, obviously, Greece. I'm not aware of any "Arabic" domination of those areas.

The goat, the sheep, and the cow were all domesticated in the Near East and were all brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers.
http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/r4_468.png

This is a paper on domesticated animals in the Early Neolithic in the Balkans:
http://www.academia.edu/4124374/Animal_exploitation_in_the_Early_Neolithic_of_the_ Balkans_and_Central_Europe

Animal Herding in the Balkan Neolithic:
http://www.academia.edu/1517144/Herding_settlement_and_chronology_in_the_Balkan_Ne olithic

Although there are nutritional pros and cons to the milk of all these animals, in one thing the cow has the others beat hands down, and that's in the total quantity of milk they can produce, which makes sense given the size differential. However, the downside is that they require a great deal of food, huge quantities of grass or hay or even better, grain. In certain parts of Europe that's just not to be had. Terrain and climate dictate what you grow and which animals you domesticate, the "terroir", or at least they did. That's why in rural Emilia there are more cows than people, but in Liguria and the Lunigiana people could only manage a cow or two for personal use, and sometimes not even that, and the vast majority of cheeses are made from either sheep's milk or goat's milk. Oh, and we don't have much J1 at all. :)

It's easy, in the beginning, without an understanding of the causes of certain economic paradigms or cultural manifestations, to draw false conclusions. For example, I recently read a post elsewhere where someone, after listening to some "Ashkenazi' music and some "Sicilian" music, saw some similarities between them and tried to use that as "proof" of gene sharing between them. This totally ignores the fact, as others pointed out, that cultural flow, particularly in the modern era, can have absolutely nothing to do with gene flow. More directly, if this person knew anything about European music, he would have known that the two pieces of music were both influenced by music forms created in eastern Europe. Do you know how much Italian "folk" music is set to mazurkas and polkas? Why, the older folks wouldn't be able to dance at summer festivals if all such music was removed from the program. :) *The same thing happened with the "jig". It was created or evolved in 16th century England. From there it spread to Ireland, France, Italy etc. (the French gigue, the Italian giga) This isn't proof of any gene flow or sharing between them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig


Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated.

What makes you think we don't recognize that this is all very complicated? See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31868-Possible-Post-Neolithic-Immigration-Flow-From-the-Fertile-Crescent?highlight=Post+Neolithic

As for the yDna of the Neolithic, you might want to read Iain Mathiesen et al, which shows that the Anatolian farmers carried various yDna clades, even if the majority were G2a. That doesn't mean there was only one Neolithic wave, necessarily. J2 and the immediate precursor to E-V13 suddenly show up in Europe in the mid-Neolithic.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

*Ah, I forgot all the songs based on the German waltz. It's all called ballo liscio in Italian, if anyone is interested, dances (and songs) based on waltzes, mazurkas and polkas. Later on, tangos were added, and there was no mass migration of Argentinians to account for it. :)







(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf)

patrizio22
17-01-16, 18:49
Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.

Angela
17-01-16, 19:34
Hello. You caught me red handed. You got straight away that I'm an absolute beginner in genetics and cheese. Thanks for the useful information.

Perhaps also music?

I hope indeed that you're a beginner...we don't take kindly here to people with multiple accounts or people pretending to be someone that they aren't.

patrizio22
17-01-16, 20:55
Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye

RobertColumbia
19-01-16, 03:14
Hello, I'm an italian guy living in France, my name is patrizio, I had previously lived in the UK, I don't have a university degree, I have just received my genographic project results and opened two accounts, on on anthrogenica where I posted a thread by the same title and one here. I'm just making a fool of myself trying to learn something. By the way, the scientific article I read were written by journalists on papers like the guardian, el pais, il corriere della sera or le monde. Anyway, your post was the most useful for an ignorant like me. I'll shut up until I know more. This thread may be useful for many italians. Bye

Welcome! Please do stay and learn more. Not having a university degree isn't a problem as long as you keep learning!

patrizio22
19-01-16, 22:48
Thank you to anyone for your help. I had a look back along this thread and saw that when I mentioned a chart appearing on Eupedia instead of writing "I don't know whether the chart is reliable" (because it was taken from some source) i wrote "I found this on Eupedia, I don't know whether is reliable". I do apologize to anyone, it was just a stupid mistake, perhaps that's why I was taken for a *****.

Hauteville
20-01-16, 13:25
Il progetto di Ethnopedia amatoriale ma fatto in maniera molto accurata.
Ethnopedia's project is amatorial but it's quite accurate.

Vukodav
20-01-16, 14:45
Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).

anthropico
20-01-16, 16:10
Not so much because no author actually checked the origins of those samples. Moreover for several regions there are only few samples (3-4).
Ethnopedia checked the origins of all samples (more than 600) and stored every single surname, haplogroup, deepest subclade known and grandfather's place of birth (due to the recent migration of southerners in north Italy).
Regions which have less than 20 samples such as Valle d'Aosta are not shown in the maps.

Angela
20-01-16, 17:43
J1, even J1 P58 doesn't means you have recent Arabian or Jewish ancestor because medieval muslims were more Berbers than Arabians to begin with and it seems that most of J1 was introduced via East Anatolia in the ancient times.
Anyway here is an amateur genetic project, it's good for the percentages.

http://tipologieeuropidi.altervista.org/template/files/template/genitaly.html

http://s10.postimg.org/5smdtgvpl/Y_DNA_Ethnopedia.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

Hauteville
20-01-16, 18:02
Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?


I'm just fan of Ethnopedia page on Facebook but i know one of the admins. I'll ask to him.

patrizio22
22-01-16, 10:21
A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

Angela
22-01-16, 18:48
If you don't mind my asking, how did you get access to the registry records? In my experience they're never digitized or on line. It would be very good for Italians of the diaspora if they've starting to do that.

Using the parish records can take you very far back indeed, all the way to the time of the Council of Trent or, in some places, even further. However, it can jump from parish to parish, as I'm sure you know, since marriages are usually registered in the church of the bride. None of it is computerized, to my knowledge, so I'm afraid tracing your family tree back in time won't be able to be done with a letter to the parish priest of one parish. If you really want it done, you'll have to spend your vacations in Italy doing it.

Still, I don't think that this would answer your ultimate question since you're interested in very ancient origins. As some members have already told you, without much more ancient dna, very refined by sub-clade, there are lots of possibilities.

Just parenthetically, yes, port cities have always been more cosmopolitan. However, eastern Liguria, which has always been a trading center, has very little J1. The same applies to Venezia, the biggest port on the Adriatic. On the other hand, you have a bit in the mountains of Piemonte, and inland places in the Balkans and even up toward central Europe. Or, look at E-V13. There's a lot, relatively speaking, in the Tirol and southern Germany. Y dna is very subject to founder effect and drift. Sometimes, one line just gets lucky.

Or, look at the recent results from the ancient dna from Britain, discussed on a thread on this Board.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31897-Ancient-DNA-England-Iron-age-Roman-Gladiator-and-Anglo-Saxon?p=474629#post474629

We have a yDna J2 all the way in York who "fits" somewhere south of modern Palestinians and Jordanians and north of Saudis autosomally. (West African SSA and perhaps some SA seems to have changed the picture in the Middle East since his time) Yet I'm sure that J2 British men, if some can be found who match him, will be indistinguishable from other Brits.

I know some men are very attached indeed to their yDna, but it's only one among many ancestors. We have a J2 mesolithic Karelian, a J2 from the mid-to-late Neolithic, J2's from the Bronze Age and on and on, and they are, or will be found to be, different autosomally.

We clearly have more J2 and J1 in Italy (in all of Southern Europe, actually). Without detailed sub-clade information from ancient dna, however, we can't know to which migration to assign it and how much autosomal impact each wave might have had. After all, both Neolithic and post Neolithic migrants from the southeast or Anatolia would have carried Ancient Anatolian farmer dna, and at some point CHG ancestry. It's going to be tricky.
They're going to have to compare samples both pre-and-post every major wave of migration. That's going to be difficult in some eras because some cultures in Italy practiced cremation. Then, people buried in elite burials might have been very different from the commoners.

Even getting a good sample is going to be difficult. The bones in museums have been handled so often, for so many centuries, that they're very contaminated. Also, not many of them are complete skulls, and from the information provided by the authors of the British study, the results are most accurate if taken from the petrous bone behind the ear, or lacking that, the teeth. It's no coincidence that much of this very good dna we're seeing tested is from "fresh" finds.

Assigning "native" versus "foreign" status is also going to be difficult in an era like the Roman one, for example, since both occupied various positions on the social scale, and it seems that the original "Anatolian farmer" and MN people may have survived much better in southern Europe.

Some abstracts indicate there's going to be a lot of results being announced relatively soon. I'm personally very impatient to get results, particularly from any Etruscan or Roman remains. I owe it to my father to try to prove we're related to them!

I just hope the authors used the latest tools, like the ones used by the Schiffels team. Unfortunately, I think the Reich lab is busy with other things.

anthropico
22-01-16, 18:51
Thanks for the link. I don't remember seeing it before. It seems to comport with the studies I've seen, and that's a lot of samples, even if they weren't randomly selected. I like how the creators of it broke R1b down into subclades.

In terms of the J1, how many of the men tested further, and if so, have you compiled the data?

25% of the men with J1 didn't give their clade because they don't know it.
Among the 75% of the men which gave their clades, 88% has P58 or its downstream subclades.

Sile
22-01-16, 19:51
A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back

Angela
22-01-16, 20:04
online registry records for italy go back to 1805 ...........the veneto and friuli have the missing "austrian period" , but I got my "missing" period in 3 days for free from the comune.

but if your not from these areas you should have free access until 1805 .....and with some skill go further back

That's incorrect. It very much depends on the region. The Veneto is not all of Italy.


Ed. I should qualify that. My own tree was done in Italy a number of years ago by a great uncle. However, from what many Italian-Americans tell me, their town's records are only available online if the Mormon church or some private individual scanned them and put them online.

I'm going to check my own area when I have time and see if it's gone on line.

Sile
22-01-16, 20:44
A little update on my quest. I browsed the registry office documents of the village of my father, they don't go farthest than 1860. I emailed the parish. If I discovered that my family is local and has lived there from the middle ages, there could be an explanation for the arrival of my J-z1884 ancestors. This village is by the town of Ancona. I discovered that, once a little village of italic tribes, became a greek colony in 375 B.C. with an important harbour which traded with greece and the levant. Taken over by the romans, was enlarged and became one of the most important harbours of the roman empire. It eventually became a maritime republic during the middle ages which traded with the ottoman empire and the east. So, it was a very multicultural place since 375 B.C. My haplogroup started expanding in 2400 B.C. This town could have a door to central italy for some post neolithic J1s.

Post me privately on the region you are from in Italy and the period in time you require and I will send you the free online link to your records from that region:satisfied:

patrizio22
22-01-16, 21:14
Some americans from Serra San Quirico (AN) posted microfilms of the registry office of the village (Anagrafe). The dates go back to 1866. The registy office of the province of Ancona has documents back to the mid 19th. They're not useful because I know ancestors up to the early 19th or the end of the 18th. Parishes in that area may have documents until the 16th. I'm waiting for an answer from the parish, if there's one. The rest, yes, it is wishful thinking. I'm just having a look at both sides, last name and y chromosome. I'm just one of those cooks, nurses or sales administrators who had a dna test. We may be quite anal. If, as you say there's going to be many developments, I look forward to hearing some news.

patrizio22
22-01-16, 21:16
I forgot to say that the data was on Family Search.

Sile
22-01-16, 21:38
I forgot to say that the data was on Family Search.

I privately sent you the 1805 to 1815 Ancona records ( a link ).............others will follow

you need to read oldish Italian and understand the meaning of some words in reference to italian trees

patrizio22
22-01-16, 23:06
many thanks

Sile
23-01-16, 21:07
many thanks

I just sent you a link privately of registry records online for your specific area of Ancona.....Serra San Quirico

enjoy

I can help with the meaning of some words like fu, quondam etc etc

sorry that some people here try to prevent me from helping people by saying I "bullsit" to things I say.:good_job:

patrizio22
23-01-16, 21:35
I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.

Sile
23-01-16, 22:38
I'm browsing the birth certificates. Very, painfully interesting. This site has got more stuff than Family Search. Family Search has got more data from Americans of Italian origins.

ok

if you find a "detto" next to your surname.....it would be important to find if it is another surname or a nickname

example

giovanni angeli detto piotto ..........this is a nickname in regards to piotto, because a piotto is a turkey in venetian, maybe he raised turkeys .........if it said
giovanni angeli detto morosin ......then morosin is a known surname,............so this person took his mothers maidenname of morosin to distinguish him from other angeli families in his town.
This "detto" names are accepted in registry documents an a "real" name until either he leaves the town or the other angeli families die off

MINDustry
01-07-16, 19:24
I've been researching my haplogroup which is J1. I was surprised to learn I was J1 since J2 is much more common amongst Southern Europeans even though J1 is common in some areas of Southern Europe. I'm European and Italian on my fathers side and was thinking more about it. I joined a project on FTDNA for Italians who also scored J1 and I got "L858+ (positive) and L829+ (Positive). So I went to the Eupedia J1 Phylogenic Tree and see that L858 Started in the Levant and that L829 branched off into a European and Middle Eastern version. Since I'm Italian, I obviously have the European version/subclade.

This would mean that my ancestors started out in the Fertile Crescent in the Levant near Mesopotamia and instead of migrating southward into Arabia like modern J1, it instead went to Europe/Italy. My ancestors weren't Jewish since I didn't score positive for the Jewish subclade so they must've been Christians of some sort who spoke a Semitic language at the time.

How it got there I don't know but I had some realizations.

The term "Semitic" has nothing to do with genetics. It's just a language. "Semitic people" don't even exist. It's just a language grouping for some West Asian countries. If my ancestors spoke a different language they wouldn't be "Semitic" and they even might've spoken a different language. I don't know.

Semitic languages could've been spoken by the Neolithic Farmers who carried J2 as well correct? Since Mesopotamia and the Levant are right beside each-other and are apart of the same area.

Maleth
02-07-16, 00:04
Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31873-italian-j1-questions-about-my-haplogroup
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.

MINDustry
02-07-16, 02:43
Hello MINDustry, here is some interesting reading for you:-

what counts really is your autosmal as your father paternal line is only a small part of who you are. J1 is just an ingredient in the minestrone. Dont forget that IJ were one haplogroup some 30,000 years ago or more. I is what you find mostly in the Balkans and Scandinavia so there is nothing that straight forward about genetics. The human journey is very long and current terminologies are pretty recent compared to the human migration story.

Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.

I've read all of those links. Thanks.

A. Papadimitriou
02-07-16, 06:34
J1 has been found in Caucasus in Paleolithic. It isn't logical to call it Semitic.



Epigravettian
Georgia
Satsurblia cave
M
13,380-13,130 cal BP
1,460,368
J1
Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-.
K3
Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278C
Jones 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Jones2015);Fu 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Fu2016); Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr





Epigravettian
Georgia
Satsurblia cave
M
13,380-13,130 cal BP
1,460,368
J1
Low coverage. L255+, CTS426/PF4641/YSC307+, CTS10759+, CTS11188/PF4784+, CTS11636/PF4785+, CTS6101/PF3543+, F4306+, FGC20301/Y6337/ZS3624+, FGC20303/Y6336/ZS3620+, CTS3219/ZS80-.
K3
Mutations reported here are with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, [235G not found], 247G, 560T, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 1097T, 1811G, 2758G, 2885T, 3480G, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 6027T, 7146A, 7256C, 7498A, 7521G, 7657C, [8188G not found], 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9055A, 9540T, 9698C, [9852T not found], 10398A, 10550G, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11299C, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14167T, 14198A, 14212C, 14798C, 15924G, [16093C not found], 16129G, 16148T, [16153A not found], 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16224C, 16230A, 16278C
Jones 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Jones2015);Fu 2016 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Fu2016); Additional info on Y-SNA SNPs from Chris Rоttеnѕtеіnеr

Maleth
02-07-16, 16:46
Well, J1 means my fathers line came from the Middle East correct? Not much different from other Europeans. Anything in the "J" haplogroup means Near Eastern origin.

According to the Wikipedia article, J1 started in the Zagros Mountains in Turkey and moved southward where it spread to the Levant and Arabian Peninsula.

What's the difference between J1 and J2? The answer is not much. They both came from the Middle East and they both had contact with Semitic speaking peoples in the Levant at one point. The only difference is that one stayed in Mesopotamia for longer while the other went Westward to the Levant.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as "Semitic people". It's not an ethnicity. Semitic is a language group. If a Semitic person decided to speak a different language they would cease to be a Semitic person and instead be something else. They are Middle Eastern people. The Assyrians, Lebanese, Israelis, and the Ancient Mesopotamians. They are the exact same people DNA wise is my point. They all come from the Middle East.

I took my Autosomal results and they came out as they would for anybody with a mix of Southern European and Northern European ancestry. I think I only scored something like 3.20% Middle Eastern on one of the Autosomal calculators. 23andme only gave me 0.1% Middle Eastern and North African which is laughable. I thought as an Italian I'd have MUCH more than that, but when I viewed the results of White Americans almost 90% scored something in a foreign category whether it was Sub Saharan African, Native American, MENA, etc.

Apparently Asehkenazi is listed under European. The Conservative Estimate for my Ashkenazi was 0.2% at a 95% confidence rate but jumped up to 3.4% at a 75% confidence rate. I asked a geneticist and he said to trust the Conservative estimate more than the Original or Speculative.


You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.


I've read all of those links. Thanks.

Most welcome

MINDustry
02-07-16, 19:07
You would need to check the history of geographical area in Italy. J1 can be anything from recent 'Moorish' Jewish converts to older Phoenician or way back Neolithic. Paper trail helps sometimes but I don't think its enough.

J2 is quite old 22,000 ybp and it seems to have a different story and migration more connected to Anatolia Caucasus and Iran. Its much more common in the South of Europe and if not mistaken some ancient samples have already been found in Europe. Languages are ambiguous and not really anything to go with. They are learned and not inate, and often change according to who is dominating and Economical success of the particular group. We have many instances where Languages are swapped even in recent history.



Most welcome
I don't think it's Moorish/Jewish since those were mostly in Iberia (Spain and Portugal), not Central Italy. I think that's the least likely possibility.. It could be Phoenician/Greek or Neolithic. How would I get a paper trail started? Maybe I'll never know the answer.

Jews and Phoenicians carried haplogroup J2 as well. Both of these Y-lines came into contact with Semitic speaking peoples since they are from the Middle East and had to go through the Levant to get to the Mediterranean.

J1 is old as well at about 20,000 years old and started near Lake Van in Anatolia. From there it migrated to the Levant and then to Southern Europe via the Mediterranean where it can be found up to 10-20% in some parts of Southern Europe like Greece, Malta, and Sicily. At least from what I've read.

J1 and J2 both helped spread Neolithic farming.

My ancestors from my fathers side in Italy are from Marche. Maybe you can help me check.

Dinarid
03-07-16, 01:07
I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 02:15
I would not be surprised to see either haplogroup in Southern/Mediterranean Europe. They may have been there before R1b.
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 02:26
I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?

DuPidh
03-07-16, 02:36
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!

Sile
03-07-16, 02:48
To my knowledge, R1b never went into the Levant. J1 and J2, did.

I'm thinking my J1 and the J1 and J2 of many other Southern Europeans could be Phoenician originally.

the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 02:54
How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
Well people always say they are. I'm just correcting a misunderstanding.

Don't people who have J1 and J2 in Europe have it because of the Phoenicians?

That is my question. No need to get upset.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 02:55
the R1b-v88 that went into africa entered via egypt, then to sudan, chad etc.............it migrated from beyond the northern Levant through southern Levant to NE africa.
Makes sense. I just find it funny how it's also Sub-Saharan African along with Western European.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 03:01
Patrizio!

My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).

Fire Haired14
03-07-16, 04:54
Patrizio!

My fathers side is from Marche as well from the town of Fano.

I have J1-L858. Which is a downstream of P-58. Does this mean that we are both Neolithic or is it Semitic?\

We could be related. I want to know who brought the J1e to Marche. I think it could've been Neolithic farmers but I'm not sure. The subclade spread from the Levant into Southern Arabia and Europe (us).

It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.

Fluffy
03-07-16, 05:32
My thoughts are that I think your insecure about being in the J1 Haplogroup....

Sile
03-07-16, 06:34
I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?

from what I read recently on genetics......European ends at Azov city ..........so the caucasus are not European

Greying Wanderer
03-07-16, 08:31
Why-is-J1-not-considered-a-European-haplogroup?

the reality is complicated - simplifying helps people understand.

LeBrok
03-07-16, 08:46
My thoughts are that I think your insecure about being in the J1 Haplogroup....That's how I've read too.

Angela
03-07-16, 15:37
I think it's more likely to be someone from the anthrofora world who actually believes these things and wants to get a rise out of people here.

That's why I've been ignoring it...

Maleth
03-07-16, 16:33
I never got why J1-P58 is considered non-European while J2 is considered European. The haplogroups are brothers.

Both J1 and J2 came into contact with Semitic speaking people in the Middle East, they are practically the same thing. The originated in roughly the same area. J1 originated in Eastern Turkey while J2 originated a little further East in Iraq.

Some percentages of J1 go above 10% in certain parts of Southern Europe, like Agrigento Sicily where a sample was done and 12% of J1e was found. High percentages can also be found in Malta, Greece, and even some parts of Central Italy where it can go up to 7% plus.

At least J1e on 23andme is considered common amongst Southern Europeans.

The way I see it, BOTH J1 and J2 are common amongst Southern Europeans although J2 is more common.

E1b1b origniated in Northern Africa yet it's considered "European". Hitler had that haplogroup for goodness sakes. He didn't have the "Aryan" "I1" haplogroup. Thomas Jefferson had the T haplogroup. .

To some people, the only European haplogroups are R1a/b and I. That makes NO sense though as pretty much all European haplogroups including R1b originated in the Near East.

There is no such thing as a "European" haplogroup.

Any thoughts?

We can discuss all these questions on your initial thread, no need to open new ones for every question ;)

E1b1b by far is not considered European (or better common in Europe) as the bulk of E1b1b is found in Africa including what is termed the Berber dna E-M81 found in North Africa. In reality there is no such dna as European or anything else, but usually explains the most common haplogroups of a continent compared to the current populations. E1b1b is split into various groups and what would be considered European is its subclade E-V13 which probably has mutated in Europe (likely Balkans) and its found mostly in Europe (concentrated in the Balkans) and to a much lesser extent outside of Europe. J1 is part and parcel of European dna however it comes at much lower percentages say compared to R1b and R1a that makes them the largest haplotype in the present European population. This was not always the case as ancient studies reveal that G's seem to have been the dominant Haplogroup and I's being the oldest European, however they both come in much smaller percentages compared to the R's in current European populations.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 16:41
It's definitely not from Neolithic Europe. Now that we have lots of ancient DNA from the Middle East we can be pretty confident Y DNA J is from Iran/Caucasus. Most ancient Y DNA from there is J going back to the Paleolithic. We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there.

These people who went to Italy probably came from Turkey and were probably not Semitic. It's possible your P58 is Semetic but I doubt it.
Fair enough.

I had a few questions though.

1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?

2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?

3) You say this: "We also know looking at ancient DNA that people with ancestry from ancient Iran/Caucasus migrated to Italy after the Neolithic. Most of their ancestry though was not from Iran/Caucasus, most was from people closely related to Neolithic Europeans. It's complicated. The ancestry for all Europeans(and humans) is complex. These new people who went to Italy were actually pretty related to the people already living there."

This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

I'm confused.

Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.

"Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.

I'm confused.

MINDustry
03-07-16, 17:07
I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".

Angela
03-07-16, 17:24
I'm going to pretend that you are indeed just confused. Let's just keep your confusion to one thread, shall we? Otherwise, it's spamming, and there will be consequences.

patrizio22
03-07-16, 18:01
I thought Europeans ONLY descended from Neolithic Europeans, Hunter Gatherers, and Ancient Northern Eurasians, and nobody else. Apparently they also descend from ancient Iranians and people from the Caucasus?

Funny, "Caucasian = Caucasus".

Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.

Fire Haired14
03-07-16, 20:38
When discussing genetics there's differnt definitions of European. The best way to define it is humans living in Europe in 2016 AD(xknown recent immigrants, including Jews and Romani/Gypses). When discussing ancient genetics there's no perfect definition for European, because modern Europeans are a mixture of several differnt ancient people most of whom didn't live in Europe. Well it depends what how ancient. When you go back 8,000 years ago most were not living in Europe, but if you went back 6,000 years ago most were.

I'd say the definition of "white" or "European" is Anatolia Neolithic+Bronze age Pontic Caspien Steppe+Mesolithic Western Europe. When you go back 5,000 years ago "white" isn't a single type of ancestry, it's a fusion of differnt types of ancestry. Today all Europeans are clearly closely related because they're a similar mix and so today in 2016 AD it's easy to define what European is genetically, but you can't use that same definition when referring to humans 5,000 years ago.

Hopefully I got my point across. By most definitions I wouldn't call J1 European, just like I wouldn't call R1b European. Most J1 today IMO arrived less than 5,000 years ago from Turkey/Caucasus/Mesoptamia area. J1 is as European as R1b. Because R1b arrived in the same time frame, from people who lived farther away(Russia) and were genetically more differnt than humans already living in Europe. 5,000 years ago Near East/Europe were very related while Russia was very differnt.

EDIT: If you're talking about geography and not genetics, then J1 isn't European. It's probably ultimately from Northern West Asia. Ancient DNA suggests it could be from the Caucasus or Iran. The oldest example of J1 is from Georgia and is 13,000 years old. Once again if you're talking about geography not genetics the only truly European Y DNA haplogroups are I and C1a2 and other forms of C1. We have examples of both haplogroups in Europe that are over 30,000 years old.

What I mean by "geography not genetics" is I'm only referring to geographic land of Europe not European genes. Like I just said there are differnt genetic definitions for European. The people who lived in Western Europe 10,000 years ago are more foreign to modern Western Europe than people who lived in Turkey 10,000 years ago. So Y DNA I2 is Western European, but when I say Western European I'm not referring to humans currently living there I'm referring to the piece of land.

Dinarid
03-07-16, 20:49
How many times we have said the haplogroups and ethnicity are not related?
Phoenicians were an ethnicity of antiquity!
What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 01:17
Hello. From what I have gathered our haplogroup came to Europe later than bronze age. From different sources it appears that branches of y haplogroup J1 downstream of the P58 branch may be regarded already as semitic and l858 comes after p58 but you can't be cathegorical, and, above all, I'm not an expert. Anyway, semitic doesn't mean only jewish and arabic but also akkadian, canaanite, phoenician, ugaric, etc.

Anyway, I can tell you what I have discovered about the area where our ancestors lived, around the town of Ancona. Ancona was about 400 b.c. already a greek harbour, it was the exact border between the gaulish tribes of northern Italy and the Italic tribes of central Italy. both appear to belong to the alpine celtic branch of y haplogroup r1b. So the town of Ancona was a greek colony right in the middle. It was already trading with the levant at the time but also during roman times when it became a great roman harbour trading with the mediterranean. Later it became a maritine republic in partnership with the croatian harbour of Ragusa (dubrovnik). The town of Ancona had offices and embassies in the balkans, greece, the black sea in Romania and close to Armenia but also in Israel and Egypt. It was a multicultural town with residents from the Levant, Egypt, Israel, the balkans, etc. At the end of the 14th century that area of the adriatic coast and especially Ancona received a huge immigration of sephardic jews who had been expelled from Spain and Portugal but also of jews who had been expelled from southern Italy. There was also a huge immigration of slavs (who in italian were called Schiavoni) who fled the Turkish invasion of the balkans. In that area of Italy, the black death had decimated the population and the countryside had been abandoned. So those slavs occupied the Adriatic countyside so much that probably one out of three italians during the 16th century had slavic origins.

The slavs are not usually associated with y haplogroup j1 but the jewish are. Ancona had a huge jewish community from the early 16th century. So, I think the possible origins of our ancestors could be either ancient, like the other member said (probably iron age or roman times) or more recent like for example sephardic jews from the iberian peninsula or the jews of southern italy who were both expelled under spanish occupation. Many of those spanish jews were called Marranos or Conversos because they had became christians in Spain and Portugal but they were nevertheless obliged to leave. So, technically, some of them were not jews anymore. My family name, Brega, is not marked as Jewish or Converso or Marrano in any jewish database. In the Napoleonic registry of the early 19th century my family name is present only in the village of Castelleta, which is a bit on the inside from Fano, following the old Flaminia roman road. The town of Fano must have had a similar situation because it is not far away.

So, who were our ancestors? It is difficult to say. What's your family name? Bye.
It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 01:20
What are you talking about? They most certainly are. For example, a man with Haplogroup A almost certainly has some African ancestry, and a man with D-M55 is almost certainly from Japan.

Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 01:46
It might not even be Semitic at all, some say, if it came from Caucasus/Iran like the previous poster said. We will never know whether it was a Semitic speaking person or not. It could've entered during the Bronze Age, before, or after. We don't know. I don't think it's Jewish though.

I typed in "jewish" after my last name and found nothing.

No records or anything.

Angela
04-07-16, 02:58
Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.

Dinarid
04-07-16, 03:36
Just as someone with haplogroup J has European ancestry that came from the Middle East.

African haplogroups and Asian haplogroups are more Isolated. European haplogroups are all over the map.

For example: Thomas Jefferson had haplogroup T, which is very rare amongst Europeans, but this man still obviously had European ancestry. Different branches spread and go to Europe.
I don't disagree, my point was that DuPidh was wrong saying that haplogroups have "nothing to do" with ethnicity. In many cases they are clearly indicators.

Fire Haired14
04-07-16, 06:07
Fair enough.

I had a few questions though.

[QUOTE=MINDustry;483091]1) Neolithic Europeans must've spoken SOME form of Semitic language seeing as they came from Mesopotamia which is right beside the Levant in modern day Iraq, which speaks Arabic. At the very least, Neolithic farmers had contact with Semitic speaking peoples and intermingled with them?

I honestly have no idea. When you go back 9,000 years you can't expect the people to have the same language and genes as the people living there today. Semetic languages existing there today isn't good evidence in my opinion that they were there 9,000 years ago.


2) What's the difference between people from Turkey and Neolithic Europe? Aren't they the same people or closely related?

The Neolithic age/Farming age was brought to Europe from Turkey. Neolithic Europeans were a mixture of newcomers from Turkey and indigenous Europeans. Most of their ancestry was from Turkey. After living in Europe for 2,000 years, most only had about 20% indigenous European admixture. So yeah Neolithic Turkish and Europeans were basically the same people, the only difference is indigenous European admixture in Neolithic Europe.

Modern Turkish though are a differnt story. We can see looking at ancient DNA that people from around the Caucasus/Iran were migrating into Turkey 6,000 year ago. Modern Turkish mostly look like a mixture of Neolithic Turkish and ancient Caucasus/Iran.


This means people with the J haplogroup period (J1 or J2) are closely related to Neolithic Europeans if not are Neolithic Europeans? Or are people with J1 not Europeans? I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

Y DNA J came from their Caucasus/Iran ancestors not their ancestors who were closely related to Neolithic Europeans. The newcomers were mostly a mixture of ancient Caucasus/Iran(Y DNA J) and people similar to Neolithic Turkish/Europeans(Y DNA G2a or E1b or H2).


Or are people with J1 not Europeans?

I answered that in another thread.


I'm so confused. I thought Europeans were only descended from Neolithic Farmers and Hunter Gatherers, or are they descended from everybody in the Caucasus/Mesopotamian area?

"Native Hunter Gatherer+Middle Eastern Farmer" is the old model. Because of more ancient DNA we now know European origins are more complicated. Hunter Gatherer+Farmer is one part of European's ancestry the the next most important part is from the Bronze age Pontic Caspie Steppe(Russia).

So you had farmers from Neolithic migrate into Europe and gradually mix with indigenous hunter gatherers in 7000-5000 BC. By 3000 BC most Europeans were 80% Turkish Farmer and 20% Native European. On the other side of Europe, in Russia, was another world with its own story. There was no massive migration by Turkish farmers. It wasn't farmer+hunter gatherer. Instead there was gradual admixture with people from the Caucasus mountains(Y DNA J) and SouthEast Europe(100% Neolithic Turkish).

By 3000 BC people in Russia were roughly 60% Indigenous Russian(Y DNA R1b and R1a), 30% Ancient Caucasus, and 10% Neolithic Turkish. Then those people in Russia migrated en masse into Europe and contributed a huge chunk of ancestry to all Europeans except Sardinians. They're a big part of modern European's ancestry. So Europeans are not just Hunter gatherer+Farmer. For Southern Europeans it gets more complicated, because there was migration from Northern West Asia into Southern Europe after the Neolithic as well.

Ancient Caucasus/Iran is an important part of all European's ancestry via ancestry from those Bronze age Russians. It's more important for Southern Europeans, because there was migration from Northern West Asia with loads of Y DNA J and ancestry from the Ancient Caucasus/Iran. I hope I explained this well.


Also, Semitic is just a language, not some sort of DNA or ethnicity.

I agree.


"Neolithic" is a time period. Not an ethnicity. My ancestors, along with people with J2 were just Middle Eastern farmers.

You're right. I say "Neolithic" because that's the oldest time frame they lived in. I'm not saying the time frame defines their genes. They could have lived up until 2016 AD unadmixed, they almost did in Sardinia.

ThirdTerm
04-07-16, 06:58
https://s31.postimg.org/c6ywuvitn/Pasted_Graphic_2.jpg

J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. According to the Armenian DNA Project, most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 are ancestrally Armenian.



The "J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14, L136-, P58- sub-clade" is considered by Dr. Roy King of Stanford University to be one of the markers of the Caucasian-speaking Hurrians and Urartians. James Honeychuck has prepared a MAP of the current distribution of this sub-clade. Many if not most of the Eastern European cases of J1* with DYS388 = 13 or 14 shown on this map could well be ancestrally Armenian.


J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.



Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey).

Etruscan culture was very advanced and quite different from other known Italian cultures that flourished at the same time, and highly influential in the development of Roman civilisation. Its origins have been debated by archaeologists, historians and linguists since time immemorial.

Now modern genetic techniques have given scientists the tools to answer this puzzle. Professor Piazza and his colleagues set out to study genetic samples from three present-day Italian populations living in Murlo, Volterra, and Casentino in Tuscany, central Italy. “We already knew that people living in this area were genetically different from those in the surrounding regions”, he says. “Murlo and Volterra are among the most archaeologically important Etruscan sites in a region of Tuscany also known for having Etruscan-derived place names and local dialects. The Casentino valley sample was taken from an area bordering the area where Etruscan influence has been preserved.”

The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples”, says Professor Piazza. “In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos.”

Auld Reekie
04-07-16, 07:42
It's the italian project made by Ethnopedia Facebook page
Where is Molise?

Auld Reekie
04-07-16, 07:58
That isn't how it works. The genes which code for "appearance" if that's what you mean by "traits" are in your autosomal dna; they aren't carried by your mtDna or yDna. Whatever you inherit from your mother in terms of autosomal inheritance comes from all of her ancestors, male and female, and the same is true for your father. Your mtDna and yDna ancestors are only two lines out of many.

Let's take a simple example. Let's say that a person has maternal ancestry from the Cape Verde Islands. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but the people there have quite a bit of SSA admixture. It shows up in autosomal tests, and also shows up in "appearance". I once went to a Cape Verdean festival in Massachusetts, and you can clearly see it in these people. However, the mtDna of some of them might be a totally unremarkable mtDna "H" subclade common in Portugal. (Of course, it could also be mtDna L3) The SSA could have entered through the paternal ancestors of the mother, or could indeed have entered through a maternal line, but not the one represented by the mtDna. Do you see how it can work?

If you follow this link you can access a lot of "beginner's guides" to the whole subject of genetic genealogy. You might find them useful.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Beginners'_guides_to_genetic_genealogy



I take it you're not an afficionado of cheese? :) Have you ever heard of Roquefort, Manchego, or, if you're in a goat cheese mood, feta, chèvre (Bucheron), garrotxa...well, I could go on and on. Spain is actually the largest producer of sheep cheeses. Are you going to attribute it to J1 sheep herders? Bucheron is made in the Loire Valley, feta in, obviously, Greece. I'm not aware of any "Arabic" domination of those areas.

The goat, the sheep, and the cow were all domesticated in the Near East and were all brought to Europe by Neolithic farmers.
http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/images/r4_468.png

This is a paper on domesticated animals in the Early Neolithic in the Balkans:
http://www.academia.edu/4124374/Animal_exploitation_in_the_Early_Neolithic_of_the_ Balkans_and_Central_Europe

Animal Herding in the Balkan Neolithic:
http://www.academia.edu/1517144/Herding_settlement_and_chronology_in_the_Balkan_Ne olithic

Although there are nutritional pros and cons to the milk of all these animals, in one thing the cow has the others beat hands down, and that's in the total quantity of milk they can produce, which makes sense given the size differential. However, the downside is that they require a great deal of food, huge quantities of grass or hay or even better, grain. In certain parts of Europe that's just not to be had. Terrain and climate dictate what you grow and which animals you domesticate, the "terroir", or at least they did. That's why in rural Emilia there are more cows than people, but in Liguria and the Lunigiana people could only manage a cow or two for personal use, and sometimes not even that, and the vast majority of cheeses are made from either sheep's milk or goat's milk. Oh, and we don't have much J1 at all. :)

It's easy, in the beginning, without an understanding of the causes of certain economic paradigms or cultural manifestations, to draw false conclusions. For example, I recently read a post elsewhere where someone, after listening to some "Ashkenazi' music and some "Sicilian" music, saw some similarities between them and tried to use that as "proof" of gene sharing between them. This totally ignores the fact, as others pointed out, that cultural flow, particularly in the modern era, can have absolutely nothing to do with gene flow. More directly, if this person knew anything about European music, he would have known that the two pieces of music were both influenced by music forms created in eastern Europe. Do you know how much Italian "folk" music is set to mazurkas and polkas? Why, the older folks wouldn't be able to dance at summer festivals if all such music was removed from the program. :) *The same thing happened with the "jig". It was created or evolved in 16th century England. From there it spread to Ireland, France, Italy etc. (the French gigue, the Italian giga) This isn't proof of any gene flow or sharing between them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig



What makes you think we don't recognize that this is all very complicated? See:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31868-Possible-Post-Neolithic-Immigration-Flow-From-the-Fertile-Crescent?highlight=Post+Neolithic

As for the yDna of the Neolithic, you might want to read Iain Mathiesen et al, which shows that the Anatolian farmers carried various yDna clades, even if the majority were G2a. That doesn't mean there was only one Neolithic wave, necessarily. J2 and the immediate precursor to E-V13 suddenly show up in Europe in the mid-Neolithic.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf

*Ah, I forgot all the songs based on the German waltz. It's all called ballo liscio in Italian, if anyone is interested, dances (and songs) based on waltzes, mazurkas and polkas. Later on, tangos were added, and there was no mass migration of Argentinians to account for it. :)







(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/03/13/016477.full.pdf)
Interesting what you said about music. Though, I understand and agree what you're saying about how you can't attribute geneflow with things like music. I just always thought peculiar the type of music found in mountain and remote areas of Europe to be a little similar e.g. Sardinian Tenores, Gaelic Psalm singing in the Hebrides, Albanian polyphonic singing and so on. The style reminds me of how bagpipes are used, which are traditionally used in herding/shepherding areas. It might mean nothing but wouldn't it be fascinating if ancient herders sang these style harmonization to entertain themselves while out in the fields and mountains?

patrizio22
04-07-16, 09:57
Hello. It's true that some J1s came from the Caucasus. In fact, the first, older branches of J1 are found in Georgia and Armenia, but they usually are a lot older than our l858 and some alre also found in Europe. L858 is, apparently, 5300 years old and started spreading nearly 1000 years later. That's the end of the bronze age. Some georgian and armenian j1s dates back to the mesolithic or even earlier. I'm just quoting some experts who belong to some of these branches. After testing with the genographic project I transfered my results on ftdna and joined a J1 project. Unfortunately my results don't appear in this project list because I have no STR testing. But one of the administrators of the J1 project wrote to me that l858 was born probably around Mesopotamia (others say the levant) and could include a wide variety of ethnic groups. Some old j1 branches (older than ours) have apparently been found also in India. This is just contemporary dna, people like you and me who had a dna test. So, I talked about the medieval jewish migration but it doesn't need necessarily to be jewish, I was just telling you about that area of italy. Your ancestors could be anyone. It could also be that your family was not originally from Fano but went there from another italian region.
I have been browsing old registry documents from that area, if you tell me your family name I could tell you whether I came across your family name and whether it sounds like from the Marche region.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 17:37
[QUOTE=MINDustry;483091]Neolithic Europeans were a mixture of newcomers from Turkey and indigenous Europeans.
So basically what I am if I go far back enough.

I do have significant Neolithic Farmer ancestry. I took a GEDmatch that ran European Hunter/Gatherer vs Mediterranean Farmer and you should've seen my score for Mediterranean/European/Neolithic whatever Farmer. It was quite sizable as it probably is for all Italians. I am only half Italian though so the it was a split between Northern European HG vs Neolithic Farmer that I scored.

Modern Europeans like myself are a mixture of many different things. Neolithic being one of them.

Genetics and migration is honestly much more complicated than I ever expected it to be. People got around so much and there are too many different possibilities for everything.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 17:42
Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.
I came out as pretty European when I took the autosomal tests. Barely any foreign admixture.

My signature came out as closest resembling Northern Italians and Tuscans on almost EVERY test so I guess whatever my J1 Y-DNA is didn't really have any sort of impact when it came from the Middle East.

My subclade, L828 -> L829, which I tested positive for apparently was in the Near East AND Spread to Europe, effectively making it European. Even then I don't know which other subclades I test positive for. P-58 doesn't always mean your ancestors spoke a Semitic language. I guess I'll never know.

Angela
04-07-16, 18:02
The two threads on the same topic have been merged. Posting multiple threads on the same topic is against the rules of the forum. Please adhere to those rules.

Just an editorial comment: When you've raised your point, no need to keep repeating it. We got it.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 18:18
https://s31.postimg.org/c6ywuvitn/Pasted_Graphic_2.jpg

J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.

"Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey). "

I guess my J1e is ancient Anatolian in origin then. The people I match closest to genetically are Tuscan's.

MINDustry
04-07-16, 18:19
[QUOTE=MINDustry;483091]
I answered that in another thread.

I forgot your answer. I think it was a "yes, Europeans can have J1e as well".

Angela
04-07-16, 18:49
https://s31.postimg.org/c6ywuvitn/Pasted_Graphic_2.jpg

J1 (map A) in Europe is highly concentrated in the Caspian region spanning from Armenia to Ajebaijan and Eastern Europeans and Russians with J1 may harbour Armenian ancestry. J1e is predominantly Arab and Jewish, which is linked to the expansion of Neolithic pastorialists from the Fertile Crescent to the Arabian Peninsula. J2 (map B) has a widespread distribution but it is primarily found in northern Italy, which could be associated with the spread of farming from Anatolia to Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that the first settlers in the Italian Peninsula arrived from modern-day Turkey.

Last time I checked, Armenia and Azerbaijan are not in Europe.

Where is the data to support the fact that the J1 in eastern Europe is from Armenians? First of all, you need detailed subclade information, as not all J1 is the same. Some upstream J1 may have come with the Neolithic, or some with the Bronze Age, but if it is in the specifically downstream southern Levant clades, and given that we know that there is IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Poles specifically, and therefore probably with all Slavs, and further given the fact of all the information that has come out about Jews who "passed" into the gentile community in the last 150 years or so, the reality is that the vast percentage of the specifically Middle eastern clades of J1 in eastern Europe are from Jews, not from the small population of Armenians.

J2 is not most frequent in northern Italy. Only one paper, based on very few samples, even if their methodology was good, found pretty high levels of J2 in one region of central Italy, the Marche.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
The Marche have always had extended contacts with Greece and the Balkans. The J2 distribution mirrors that, in my opinion. As for J1, as I said, you have to look at the subclades. The J1 of our half Italian poster could have come from anywhere at any time. The only thing to do is follow the male line as far back as possible through church records. Beyond that one can only speculate.

We've discussed these topics repeatedly, as we have the Etruscans. Please use the search engine to find the discussions.

Here are a few that the posters on this thread might find interesting.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31651-E1b1b1-and-J2-in-Balkans-and-Italy?highlight=Boattini

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

This might be of particular interest as it is about the main topic of these merged threads: J1 in Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28666-Distribution-of-haplogroup-J1-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

If you wish to discuss the Etruscans, please post in this thread after reading the posts:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30476-A-Genome-Wide-Study-of-Modern-Day-Tuscans-Revisiting-Herodotus-s-Theory-on-the-Origi?highlight=yDna+j2+Italy

Tomenable
04-07-16, 19:58
Angela and ThirdTerm, when it comes to Armenian J1:

I was told, that ~14% of Armenians have J1, including ~7% with L136 and ~7% other subclades.

However, according to Maciamo's article on J1, the most common Armenian branch is Z1828 (not L136).

I checked Armenian FTDNA Project, found 70 samples, and both Z1828 and L136 are very common:

J1a2a Z1828 - 35 samples:

J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>BY69>Z18471 - 3
J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>Z1842 - 6
J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>Z1828>Z1842>Z18436>CTS1460 - 26

J1a1b L136 - 27 samples:

J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>L620+ (probably L136+ as well) - 3
J1 M267>YSC65>Z2217>L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147 - 3
J1 (...) L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147>Z2324 - 4
J1 (...) L620>YSC196>L136>P58>YSC141>Z1885>Z1865>Z643>L147>Z2324>YSC235>CTS11741>YSC234>L858 - 17

Other J1 subclades - 8 samples:

J1 M267>YSC65 - 4
J1 M267>YSC65>PF7261>PF7257 - 4

=========================

Sources:

This Tree of hg J1 - https://figshare.com/articles/Haplogroup_J1_phylogenetic_tree/741212
Maciamo's article - http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml
FTDNA Armenian - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/armeniadnaproject/about/background

Tomenable
04-07-16, 20:23
On the other hand, here is Ashkenazi Jewish J1 (but a much larger sample):

J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85% of Ashkenazi Y-DNA, sample 2219), including:

- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
- J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
- J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
- other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
- J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

So the main Ashkenazi subclade is J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4 (Z2313 / PF4638).

patrizio22
05-07-16, 01:20
I do agree with Angela about input from the balkans in the Marche region. Some of the 16th century immigrant were called schiavoni and probably came from Croatia and Bosnia, others were called Albanesi and probably came from Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia. I don't know, though, which one of them may have belonged to y haplogroup J2. What I do know is that in the province of Ancona, in the countryside, they made one third of the population during the 16th century. And there was also a greek presence.

Dinarid
06-07-16, 05:42
Can we try to get up to speed on these subjects? No, haplogroup A carrying men don't have to have autosomal SSA. That was the case for a Yorkshire man who was found to carry haplo A.

As has been mentioned, Thomas Jefferson carried haplo T. I'm sure his autosomal signature was English as can be, as is that of all the other Jeffersons who never left England and also carry yDna T. William Harvey was E-M34, and the Wright brothers E-V13. According to ISOGG, about 9% of Germans and Austrians carry yDna "E", and the vast majority of them are not descended from Jews. To round out the picture, the Montgomeries of Scotland are reportedly J2.
http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famous_people

All of those R1b Chadic speakers are also unremarkably SSA autosomally, as many studies have shown.

As for yDna "J1", everything depends on the subclade, as it does when discussing any yDna lineage. Even then, when it's in a European context it doesn't necessarily tell you what that person is going to be like autosomally. All the fanciful stories in the world about pirates, or merchants, or seamen or vague comments by some ancient author isn't going to change that. You need substantial folk migrations to substantially change the autosomal signature of an area, not some lone person whose line happened to get lucky.

There's no way to get a family tree back to the Neolithic farmers or even to the Phoenicians. Even in Italy, church records only go back to the mid 16th century. If you want to know who they were back to that time, you can usually find out if you're willing to do the work.

As for anything before that it's just idle speculation until we get a lot more ancient dna and a lot more haplogroup resolution for something other than R1b.

Yes, and…? Not once did I say that a certain haplogroup is a guaranteed indicator of ethnicity. I simply stated that there is indeed a correlation. I don't understand why so many people here have misinterpreted that.

I don't get your argument, which rests on the fact that Haplogroup A has been found only in a few select and very rare cases in Britain, which may well have been the results of African slavery. The fact is that Haplogroup A is incredibly rare outside of the African continent. A few British men, Cypriots, Portuguese (involved in the slave trade), or peninsular Arabs who probably amount to no more than 20 people worldwide is not statistically significant. I stand by my original claim that haplogroup and ethnicity are correlated but not necessarily indicative.

As a side note I too am sick of this garbage about Europeans getting petty over a certain haplogroup being "European" vs. "non-European". Even I, which was always thought to define Old Europe, is quite possibly native to the Middle East. Indeed, the examples of I in the Middle East mean that it may have split from IJ before entering Europe. Of course, this would have been immediately before it entered the continent, so it was almost there and didn't really spend a lot of time outside. Certain haplogroups, I believe, can be associated quite clearly with certain continents. Others- especially those that originated at the crossroads of several different continents and were dispersed around the area- not so.

patrizio22
06-09-16, 21:38
Last time I checked, Armenia and Azerbaijan are not in Europe.

Where is the data to support the fact that the J1 in eastern Europe is from Armenians? First of all, you need detailed subclade information, as not all J1 is the same. Some upstream J1 may have come with the Neolithic, or some with the Bronze Age, but if it is in the specifically downstream southern Levant clades, and given that we know that there is IBD sharing between Ashkenazim and Poles specifically, and therefore probably with all Slavs, and further given the fact of all the information that has come out about Jews who "passed" into the gentile community in the last 150 years or so, the reality is that the vast percentage of the specifically Middle eastern clades of J1 in eastern Europe are from Jews, not from the small population of Armenians.

J2 is not most frequent in northern Italy. Only one paper, based on very few samples, even if their methodology was good, found pretty high levels of J2 in one region of central Italy, the Marche.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
The Marche have always had extended contacts with Greece and the Balkans. The J2 distribution mirrors that, in my opinion. As for J1, as I said, you have to look at the subclades. The J1 of our half Italian poster could have come from anywhere at any time. The only thing to do is follow the male line as far back as possible through church records. Beyond that one can only speculate.

We've discussed these topics repeatedly, as we have the Etruscans. Please use the search engine to find the discussions.

Here are a few that the posters on this thread might find interesting.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31651-E1b1b1-and-J2-in-Balkans-and-Italy?highlight=Boattini

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

This might be of particular interest as it is about the main topic of these merged threads: J1 in Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28666-Distribution-of-haplogroup-J1-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)?highlight=Boattini

If you wish to discuss the Etruscans, please post in this thread after reading the posts:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30476-A-Genome-Wide-Study-of-Modern-Day-Tuscans-Revisiting-Herodotus-s-Theory-on-the-Origi?highlight=yDna+j2+Italy

I've got a question. Looking at my admixture results from the genographic project, I see I have 68 percent south european, 26 percent asia minor (for them asia minor include also iraq, syria and lebanon), 2 percent north africa and 2 percent arabia.

There's un unusually high asia minor component. At first I thought there must have been an adoption in the family in the last 3 or 4 generations. But it appears it didn't happen. So I had a look at paternal lineages in italian regions and it looks like there's a split between tuscany and northern Italy which have more than 50 per cent R1b and low percentages of J1 and J2, and on the other hand Marche, Umbria and southern Italy which have much lower R1b percentages and higher proportion of j1 and j2. In particular my region, the Marche, appear to have as you say a very high percentage of J2 but also a fair amount of J1, and also only about 34 percent R1b.

On this page (I don't know whether it is updated) J1 and J2 make 31 percent in the Marche. Is there any other source where you can find j1 and j2 subclades in that area?

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

On eupedia, on the J2 article, they say that J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

What do you think about my 26 percent asia minor component? The genographic project doesn't appear to have an Italian admixture, but in iberia and greece they have 4 an 9 percent asia minor. Is it possible that on the central adriatic coast we got some caucasian or levantine admixture which mixed with italics of central Italy?

Another question. I have traced my surname back to just a couple of villages in the province of Ancona and Urbino. They were there at least since the 18th century. After the black death of the 14th and 15th century we got a massive migration of croatian, albanians and other from the balkans but also of jews from iberia and southern Italy. They replaced part of the losses. According to the GP I have 0 percent jewish diaspora. Since my paternal lineage is L858 can I rule out forgotten jewish ancestry? Is it reliable? How much of my admixture comes from my Y dna, is it 1 or 2 percent?

Angela
06-09-16, 23:14
Are you kidding? You're posting almost identical yDna, mtDna and supposed "Asia Minor" scores as those posted by Azzuro? You think because they're not precisely identical and you say you're from the Marche that we won't think you are posting under two names. You're not aware of the rules here against having sock accounts?

You also are violating Eupedia rules by not posting the flag which corresponds with your IP address, which is France.

FIX it.

Fluffy
07-09-16, 00:18
Better leave her alone she'll ban yo ass. lol

Pax Augusta
07-09-16, 00:27
So I had a look at paternal lineages in italian regions and it looks like there's a split between tuscany and northern Italy which have more than 50 per cent R1b and low percentages of J1 and J2, and on the other hand Marche, Umbria and southern Italy which have much lower R1b percentages and higher proportion of j1 and j2. In particular my region, the Marche, appear to have as you say a very high percentage of J2 but also a fair amount of J1, and also only about 34 percent R1b.

On this page (I don't know whether it is updated) J1 and J2 make 31 percent in the Marche. Is there any other source where you can find j1 and j2 subclades in that area?

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

On eupedia, on the J2 article, they say that J2a1-M67, the most common subclade in the caucasus and the levant, is also common in the Marche and Abruzzo region.

What do you think about my 26 percent asia minor component? The genographic project doesn't appear to have an Italian admixture, but in iberia and greece they have 4 an 9 percent asia minor. Is it possible that on the central adriatic coast we got some caucasian or levantine admixture which mixed with italics of central Italy?

Another question. I have traced my surname back to just a couple of villages in the province of Ancona and Urbino. They were there at least since the 18th century. After the black death of the 14th and 15th century we got a massive migration of croatian, albanians and other from the balkans but also of jews from iberia and southern Italy. They replaced part of the losses. According to the GP I have 0 percent jewish diaspora. Since my paternal lineage is L858 can I rule out forgotten jewish ancestry? Is it reliable? How much of my admixture comes from my Y dna, is it 1 or 2 percent?

The genographic project has an Italian admixture, the Tuscans who are central Italian. Also the Sardinians are covered by the genographic project.

patrizio22
07-09-16, 01:20
There doesn't seem to be an option to close my account. I do not wish to have an account here. Please, close my account.

Angela
07-09-16, 02:06
There doesn't seem to be an option to close my account. I do not wish to have an account here. Please, close my account.

You say it's a total coincidence that TWO supposed Italian-Americans have extremely similar mtDna and yDna subclades, and "Asia Minor" scores on Nat Geo, and they both happen to post around the same time, except that when Azzuro is posting, Patrizio 22 is very silent, but as soon as Azzuro is banned, Patrizio 22 shows up again.

OK, I'll play along, you're two totally different people. It's just a complete coincidence. Next.

You were asked to make your flag match your IP address, which is Paris, France. That is a long standing Eupedia rule. No exceptions. You didn't do it. One infraction.

You went on a tirade and posted insults against a team member. Second infraction.

Keep going...at ten points you have an automatic ban. You can reach that with one or two posts.

As for closing accounts, there's no way to do it to my knowledge. Sikelliot has rather made this request a hallmark of sites where he posts. Perhaps we should set the lyrics to music.

In terms of the substance of your question, since the data you present is virtually indistinguishable from that presented by Azzuro, the answer will be about the same. By all means ask any questions that would clarify matters if you don't understand those answers.

oriental
07-09-16, 04:22
I don't know why 'Semitic' is still used in scientific circles. It is a fake Biblical race. Noah had thee sons: Shem, Ham and Japhteth (?). Ham was supposedly banished to Africa and his descendants are most likely Haplogroup E. Now Noah must also be Haplogroup E and his other two sons. The human race descended from these guys. From Shem we get the Semites and the rest of the world from Japhteth. We should all be Haplogroup E i.e. the males. So Semites is a fairy tale race as much as Noah.

Yetos
07-09-16, 07:26
I don't know why 'Semitic' is still used in scientific circles. It is a fake Biblical race. Noah had thee sons: Shem, Ham and Japhteth (?). Ham was supposedly banished to Africa and his descendants are most likely Haplogroup E. Now Noah must also be Haplogroup E and his other two sons. The human race descended from these guys. From Shem we get the Semites and the rest of the world from Japhteth. We should all be Haplogroup E i.e. the males. So Semites is a fairy tale race as much as Noah.

you are correct
but it is a linguistic term today,
not a genetical one.

patrizio22
07-09-16, 08:14
You say it's a total coincidence that TWO supposed Italian-Americans have extremely similar mtDna and yDna subclades, and "Asia Minor" scores on Nat Geo, and they both happen to post around the same time, except that when Azzuro is posting, Patrizio 22 is very silent, but as soon as Azzuro is banned, Patrizio 22 shows up again.

OK, I'll play along, you're two totally different people. It's just a complete coincidence. Next.

You were asked to make your flag match your IP address, which is Paris, France. That is a long standing Eupedia rule. No exceptions. You didn't do it. One infraction.

You went on a tirade and posted insults against a team member. Second infraction.

Keep going...at ten points you have an automatic ban. You can reach that with one or two posts.

As for closing accounts, there's no way to do it to my knowledge. Sikelliot has rather made this request a hallmark of sites where he posts. Perhaps we should set the lyrics to music.

In terms of the substance of your question, since the data you present is virtually indistinguishable from that presented by Azzuro, the answer will be about the same. By all means ask any questions that would clarify matters if you don't understand those answers.

This azzurro member you talk about has the following haplogroups:

About Azzurro

Country Flag:
ItalyMother tongue:EnglishEthnic group:ItalianGender:MaleY-DNA haplogroup:J-Z482mtDNA haplogroup:R-U5a2b

Does he have a french IP like me?

But it doesn't matter, I have never intervened on any thread, except this which was created by me to ask questions about my results. It was called "italian j1 questions about my haplogroup". Then you mixed it with another thread about haplogroup j2 and became this thread. What's the point of being a ***** if you don't intervene on other people's thread? If this is your line of work you could have answered what I was asking you.

patrizio22
07-09-16, 08:35
When I had my results, a few months ago, I created another thread on anthrogenica by the same title: italian J1, questions about my results. If you go to this link down here you can see that someone called "principe" has intervened on that thread and has the same haplogroups as this "azzurro".
His Join Date is:
09-07-2016
What have you done to this "principe" or "azzurro"? This is the last time I go to a forum.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6228-italian-j1-questions-about-my-haplogroup/page7


(http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6228-italian-j1-questions-about-my-haplogroup/page7)

patrizio22
07-09-16, 11:31
Is by any chance anyone making fun of me? Today a new member appears on anthrogenica where I've got another thread. His name is principe, he's got the same haplogroups as this "azzurro" and writes a new post precisely on my thread.

Yesterday I was told my haplogroups identical to a certain "azzuro" which has J-Z482 and mtDNA haplogroup:R-U5a2b. (?)

If you can, please give me a rest at least on anthrogenica.

Angela
07-09-16, 14:59
If you have a problem with Azzuro and his suspiciously similar dna data suddenly appearing on anthrogenica and intervening in your thread, contact the moderators there. Why would you think I can help with that?

All I can do is enforce the rules of this Board. I can't go chasing crazies around the internet. Although, now that I think about it, it would have its perks. You know, the caped destroyer of internet racists, nut-jobs, and assorted ******. Maybe I could pick a deep azzure blue for the cape. :)

Which leads me to the fact that you have yet to change your flag to reflect your IP address. It is against Eupedia rules for the flag not to reflect your IP address. Failure to do so results in an infraction.

It's all very clearly stated in the rules and guidelines. You've been told this now three or four times. You've already received one infraction for it. Fix it.

Deepsleep_r
04-01-19, 04:51
On my mothers side is Puccini (grandfather) and Mancini (grandmother) Rozzi (ggmthr). I am mtdna U1. Grandfather from Capoliveri, Elba and grandmother from the mountains. My grandmother used to say her ancestors would move to another mountain and lose their family let alone the spelling. I don't know if my grandfather was related to the composer but I would expect he'd have bragged about it if he was.

lyakh
26-02-19, 00:10
I am interesting why J1 (especially P58) is present in Europe. Does it all come from the Jews? Or at least most of it.

I think that European J1 mostly comes from Jewish diaspora. Prehistoric farmers might not carry this haplogroup in large amount.

To which subclades European J1 belongs?

martin chaide
08-01-20, 12:20
you are right sir

BeyondAtheism
24-11-20, 00:11
I am South Asian with Brahmin-like DNA and J1-P58 and no Near Eastern Admixture as far as I can tell.