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Tomenable
02-07-16, 16:47
CEPHALIC INDEX (C.I.) =

maximum head breadth * 100
_________________________

maximum head length

German system:

C.I. 55.0 - 59.9 = ultradolichocephalic (extremely long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 60.0 - 64.9 = hyperdolichocephalic (very long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. - 74.9 = dolichocephalic (long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 75.0 - 79.9 = mesocephalic (intermediate in head form)
C.I. 80.0 - = brachycephalic (round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 85.0 - 89.9 = hyperbrachycephalic (very round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 90.0 - 94.9 = ultrabrachycephalic (extremely round-/short-/broad-headed)

French system:

C.I. - 75.00 = dolichocephalic
C.I. 75.01 - 77.77 = subdolichocephalic
C.I. 77.78 - 80.00 = mesocephalic
C.I. 80.01 - 83.33 = subbrachycephalic
C.I. 83.34 - = brachycephalic

Average CWC skull metrics (found on another forum):

Head lenght: 205,75 mm
Head breadht: 148,75 mm
Minium Frontal: 105,5 mm
Byzigomatic: 135,75 mm
Total facial height: 129,75 mm
Upper facial height: 76,5 mm
Nasal height: 59,25 mm
Nasal breadht: 35 mm
Bigonial: 103 mm
Head Height: 155 mm

So C.I. for CWC skulls would be:

148,75 * 100
___________

205,75

= 14875 : 205,75 = 72.30

So CWC skulls on average were dolichocephalic (long-/narrow-headed).

Dinarid
02-07-16, 22:14
What is CWC in the first place?

Tomenable
02-07-16, 23:29
Corded Ware Culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

Dinarid
03-07-16, 00:51
Can you translate the facial measurements (i.e. euryprosopic, mesoprosopic, leptoprosopic)? Also I can't find anything about haplogroups. And I find it hard to believe they were related to ancient steppe peoples/Indo-Europeans, who were probably brachycephalic, euryprosopic and platyrrhine like most Mongoloids and original R-carriers.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 18:12
Indo-Europeans could be Mongoloid only if they originated from Mongolia or from China.

Populations living to the west of the Altai Mountains were fully Caucasoid before the Iron Age.

For example here is data from prof. Ismagulov of the University of Astana in Kazakhstan:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

This is confirmed by mtDNA frequencies in ancient DNA:

A. Frequency of East Asian maternal haplogroups before or until the Iron Age.

B. Frequency of East Asian maternal haplogroups by the end of the Iron Age.

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

Tomenable
03-07-16, 18:14
Also I can't find anything about haplogroups.

Corded Ware people were R1a when it comes to Y-DNA, and when it comes to mtDNA - check here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32417-Mitochondrial-links-between-Yamnaya-and-Corded-Ware

Dinarid
03-07-16, 19:39
Then "proto-Europid" must mean something closer to Mongoloid than true ancient Europid. If we consider the facts, Haplogroup R was originally Mongoloid, and this was the Indo-European haplogroup. I guess if you argue that they had acquired "West Eurasian" features before they migrated to Europe, then I can understand that, but the fact remains (although some deny it) that the first men to carry Haplogroup R had a Mongoloid appearance. But I assume that this is so long ago that it is of much less importance than the autosomal admixture before as well as after the formation of the Indo-Europeans.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 19:52
If we consider the facts, Haplogroup R was originally Mongoloid

R could not be Mongoloid due to its age. Haplogroup R is around 32,000 years old according to YFull:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

And Mongoloid traits fully developed only around 25,000 years ago, so they are much, much younger:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/timelines-of-prehistory/



45–25 thousand years ago — proto-Mongoloids in Northern China, central and eastern Mongolia, and Transbaikalia evolve into Mongoloids. The 370A mutation in the EDAR gene results in Sinodonty, stiff hair, small breasts, and higher sweat gland density. The epicanthic fold is also evolved.


Caucasoids also evolved during the same period of time:



45–25 thousand years ago — proto-Caucasoids in Europe, the Middle East, and Siberia west of Lake Baikal evolve into Caucasoids.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 19:59
Haplogroups R and Q split round 45,000 years ago - so at the beginning of the split of Proto-Mongoloids from Proto-Caucasoids:

Haplogroups M and S (also descended from K2b just like P), are typically Australoid; and Australoid skull is closer to Caucasoid:

http://s32.postimg.org/k8goin551/YDNA_Tree.png

http://s32.postimg.org/k8goin551/YDNA_Tree.png

Tomenable
03-07-16, 20:11
And here you can see, which mtDNA haplogroups are Mongoloid and which Caucasoid:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32418-Seven-mitochondrial-gene-pools-(-quot-races-quot-)-of-the-world?p=483132&viewfull=1#post483132

(I originally made it in Polish, so abbreviations don't match, e.g. in Polish East = Wschód; so WA = Eastern Asia)

http://www.phylotree.org/tree/index.htm

http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.com/2016/02/asia-has-five-mtdna-gene-pools.html

https://s32.postimg.org/w2ws3tq83/Expansion_of_mt_DNA.png

https://s32.postimg.org/w2ws3tq83/Expansion_of_mt_DNA.png

Dinarid
03-07-16, 20:28
Sorry, edited:

I think that perhaps they may have had a mixed appearance- indeed, we can see some Caucasoid traits among peoples who carry Q like the Kets and some unmixed Native Americans. But I would not correlate Haplogroup R with Caucasoid features. I guess we can conclude that Q and R both had features this ancient population from which both Mongoloids and Caucasoids originate, and the Ket resemble most closely this appearance.

On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic. And it is quite stupid to write off Dinaric brachycephaly as cradleboarding. At first I thought that R-carrying Indo-Europeans brought brachycephaly en masse into Europe, with the exception of the Balkans where it was already present. But this would assume that gene flow from the Balkans would have no effects on head shape in the rest of Europe.

However, I did read a study that Croats from the Dalmatian coast (as in, on exactly the coast and not just a short distance inland, on the border with Herzegovina) are "dolichocephalic, mesoprosopic". I have noticed that Croats from the coast are usually short, sometimes very short compared to Bosnian Croats, and despite having longer, narrower heads they tend to have shorter, broader faces, with little noses (compared to our very large beaks). Slavonia would appear to be the most brachycephalic, and also genetically the most Slavic. Highest % of R1a. Slavonians are also shorter than other Croats and have rounder heads with flatter, broader faces. I do see a correlation with R1a and shorter stature and a very slight tendency to "Mongoloid" features as in a simple correlation. On the Dalmatian coast I assume there is a reduced frequency of I, but I don't know what else there is that can be correlated with these features.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 20:39
I don't believe that R suddenly became Caucasoid.

It never was Mongoloid in the 1st place. There is no R in China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea.

Even haplogroup Q - R's sibling - is not so common among most Mongoloid populations today.

Native Americans are not 100% Mongoloid, but ~70% Mongoloid + ~30% Caucasoid mix.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 21:39
On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic.

What "ancient Europeans" ???

For example Cro-Magnid type is brachycephalic, and is very ancient in Europe.

Dinarid
03-07-16, 22:40
What "ancient Europeans" ???

For example Cro-Magnid type is brachycephalic, and is very ancient in Europe.
No, the Cro-Magnons were dolichocephalic. They were euryprosopic, but quite dolichocephalic. I believe that Neanderthals and the various Homo Sapiens sapiens types (including Cro-Magnons) in ancient Europe were overall a strongly dolichocephalic population.

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 22:46
Sorry, edited:

I think that perhaps they may have had a mixed appearance- indeed, we can see some Caucasoid traits among peoples who carry Q like the Kets and some unmixed Native Americans. But I would not correlate Haplogroup R with Caucasoid features. I guess we can conclude that Q and R both had features this ancient population from which both Mongoloids and Caucasoids originate, and the Ket resemble most closely this appearance.

On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic. And it is quite stupid to write off Dinaric brachycephaly as cradleboarding. At first I thought that R-carrying Indo-Europeans brought brachycephaly en masse into Europe, with the exception of the Balkans where it was already present. But this would assume that gene flow from the Balkans would have no effects on head shape in the rest of Europe.

However, I did read a study that Croats from the Dalmatian coast (as in, on exactly the coast and not just a short distance inland, on the border with Herzegovina) are "dolichocephalic, mesoprosopic". I have noticed that Croats from the coast are usually short, sometimes very short compared to Bosnian Croats, and despite having longer, narrower heads they tend to have shorter, broader faces, with little noses (compared to our very large beaks). Slavonia would appear to be the most brachycephalic, and also genetically the most Slavic. Highest % of R1a. Slavonians are also shorter than other Croats and have rounder heads with flatter, broader faces. I do see a correlation with R1a and shorter stature and a very slight tendency to "Mongoloid" features as in a simple correlation. On the Dalmatian coast I assume there is a reduced frequency of I, but I don't know what else there is that can be correlated with these features.

Good to see another Croat here.

However, it's doubtful to corelate Y-DNA with racial type, at least in modern times.

I wouldn't call Dalmatian Croats short, even though they are shorter compared to Herzegovian Croats. Well, those two groups are more similar to each other than to Zagorje Croats for instance.


My Y-Dna is typically Slavic and connected to East European apperance, Baltid racial type, however, I am quite tall, my nose is prominent and I have hawkish profile. According to you such physical description fits better with I2 than R1a type.

There is significant percentage of I2-dinaric haplotype in Panonnian Croatia as well, not much less than R1a.

And how can R1-haplotype have any correlation with Mongoloids ? It's West Eurasian hg, not even N1c is fully mongoloid.

Autosomal admixture has most say in apperance, even though ancient populations associated with certain haplotypes did have specific look.

Tomenable
03-07-16, 22:54
East Baltid phenotype correlates with N1c haplogroup if anything, not with R1a.

MaxCRO
03-07-16, 23:02
East Baltid phenotype correlates with N1c haplogroup if anything, not with R1a.

Agreed.

However majority of R1a-carrying males seem to be dominantely round headed today. What is the cause of it, sice originally it was long.headed type ?

Tomenable
03-07-16, 23:13
What is the cause of it

I don't know.

But European Jews were/are also brachycephalic (C.I. 81.5 - 83.0), despite being descended from dolichocephalic Mediterranids (?).

Source:

Maurice Fishberg, "Physical Anthropology of the Jews. I. The Cephalic Index", published in: "American Anthropologist", Vol. 4, No. 4, 1902.

So apparently the same process of brachycephalization which affected descendants of Corded Ware, also affected the Jewish Diaspora.

Here is what Fishberg wrote:

"(...) Setting aside the Caucasian and also the African Jews, we find that the cephalic index of nearly all European Jews is between 81.5 and 83.0, showing only a limited variability, which may be attributed to the usual discrepancies between the different series of measurements of a single and homogeneous race. Another remarkable fact is the striking absence of dolichocephaly, varying from one percent in Blechman's to 7.3 in Glück's series; and at the same time there seems to be a marked preponderance of the brachycephalic type - the results of all observers show that over 60 percent of the individuals measured had a C.I. of over 80. This is about as far as we can go while attempting to study the head-form of the Jews from the accumulated anthropological literature of today. (...)"

==================

Am I right to assume that Ancient Jews were dolichocephalic, like the Mediterranid subrace ???

Tomenable
03-07-16, 23:40
Link to full study: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/659377.pdf?_=1467580087590

Dinarid
04-07-16, 01:08
Good to see another Croat here.

However, it's doubtful to corelate Y-DNA with racial type, at least in modern times.

I wouldn't call Dalmatian Croats short, even though they are shorter compared to Herzegovian Croats. Well, those two groups are more similar to each other than to Zagorje Croats for instance.


My Y-Dna is typically Slavic and connected to East European apperance, Baltid racial type, however, I am quite tall, my nose is prominent and I have hawkish profile. According to you such physical description fits better with I2 than R1a type.

There is significant percentage of I2-dinaric haplotype in Panonnian Croatia as well, not much less than R1a.

And how can R1-haplotype have any correlation with Mongoloids ? It's West Eurasian hg, not even N1c is fully mongoloid.

Autosomal admixture has most say in apperance, even though ancient populations associated with certain haplotypes did have specific look.

Yes, always! I am so comforted when I come across Croatians- I'm sure all Herzegovinian Croats feel the same. One day we will be free from damned Islam.

I actually agree with you about correlating racial type with DNA, and I've posted about this on another thread. I was instead talking about the original appearance of the people in which the mutation for this haplogroup occurred. And actually, Y-DNA plays a very large role in a man's height. Other than that I think there may be some genes on the Y chromosome that affect appearance that we haven't discovered but yes, I generally agree that their importance is minimal compared to autosomal.

I understand that Dalmatian Croats can be tall, and I seen many who are. But, in some coastal towns (the largest example being Dubrovnik) you see a lot of really short people. I mean like men under 170cm. And they have little features too unlike the beak like you and I and most Croats (they also lack what I've noticed in least in my case and most others I've seen, the very prominent chin), but for some reason the men seem to have particularly strong, wide jaws.

I guess I may be biased to what short means, because I'm 192cm, but the point remains. Zagreb I believe is more mixed, because of its size importance on the national level there is likely to be greater influence from different gene pools. I've seen both very tall and very short people in Zagreb. The rest of Slavonia seems to be on the shorter side though.

You describe yourself as "Baltid" by which I assume you mean short, broad, flat face, but with the exception being tall stature and a long, prominent beak nose. That sounds like Blanka Vlašić before her nose job. And yes, your height and nasal profile sound like someone with I2, typically. I am not claiming this will always be the case.

Anyway I would love to take a poll of men on Eupedia for haplogroup and height to see if there is any correlation. I'm sure that autosomal admixture will have less of an influence if we take into account the American members of Western European descent, personally I believe that an Anglo-Saxon-American man with I1 will not have much genetic distance with a man of the same ethnic group but R1b. Also, perhaps the I2 in Slavonia accounts for the tall people there?

My point, which I have now reconsidered, about R-Mongoloids, was that the first men to carry R had a Mongoloid appearance. Now again I reconsider due to Tomenable's claims that Caucasoids and Mongoloids separated later, so perhaps they had an archaic appearance that is rare in modern times before intermarrying into Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations. I think maybe the Ket people (indigenous Siberian, highest frequency of Q) retain these features?

Tomenable
04-07-16, 02:01
The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).

Dinarid
04-07-16, 03:19
The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).

Poles are not very tall. Some of them, perhaps. Certain areas in Poland can have higher concentrations of I. In the Baltic, Lithuania is an outlier. Even then they are not very remarkable. Really, it would seem that Sweden, northern Holland, Herzegovina, and Montenegro are the tallest. And I have seen some tall Ukrainians, especially westerners. Romania has poor nutrition, and even then I have seen some tall Romanians. I do understand that a few people are not good representatives of entire nations, but statistically there does seem to be a pattern. For example I have only seen a handful of adult male Bosnian Croats under 178cm, and the vast majority of Tosk Albanians below that height from what I've seen.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 07:01
Poles are not very tall.

Taller than the English, the Austrians, the Swiss, etc., etc. on average.

MaxCRO
04-07-16, 10:41
Yes, always! I am so comforted when I come across Croatians- I'm sure all Herzegovinian Croats feel the same. One day we will be free from damned Islam.

I actually agree with you about correlating racial type with DNA, and I've posted about this on another thread. I was instead talking about the original appearance of the people in which the mutation for this haplogroup occurred. And actually, Y-DNA plays a very large role in a man's height. Other than that I think there may be some genes on the Y chromosome that affect appearance that we haven't discovered but yes, I generally agree that their importance is minimal compared to autosomal.

I understand that Dalmatian Croats can be tall, and I seen many who are. But, in some coastal towns (the largest example being Dubrovnik) you see a lot of really short people. I mean like men under 170cm. And they have little features too unlike the beak like you and I and most Croats (they also lack what I've noticed in least in my case and most others I've seen, the very prominent chin), but for some reason the men seem to have particularly strong, wide jaws.

I guess I may be biased to what short means, because I'm 192cm, but the point remains. Zagreb I believe is more mixed, because of its size importance on the national level there is likely to be greater influence from different gene pools. I've seen both very tall and very short people in Zagreb. The rest of Slavonia seems to be on the shorter side though.

You describe yourself as "Baltid" by which I assume you mean short, broad, flat face, but with the exception being tall stature and a long, prominent beak nose. That sounds like Blanka Vlašić before her nose job. And yes, your height and nasal profile sound like someone with I2, typically. I am not claiming this will always be the case.

Anyway I would love to take a poll of men on Eupedia for haplogroup and height to see if there is any correlation. I'm sure that autosomal admixture will have less of an influence if we take into account the American members of Western European descent, personally I believe that an Anglo-Saxon-American man with I1 will not have much genetic distance with a man of the same ethnic group but R1b. Also, perhaps the I2 in Slavonia accounts for the tall people there?

My point, which I have now reconsidered, about R-Mongoloids, was that the first men to carry R had a Mongoloid appearance. Now again I reconsider due to Tomenable's claims that Caucasoids and Mongoloids separated later, so perhaps they had an archaic appearance that is rare in modern times before intermarrying into Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations. I think maybe the Ket people (indigenous Siberian, highest frequency of Q) retain these features?

Greetings to Herzegovian brothers.

There is a pettern in correlation of hg-I and tallnes, It's quite obvious. Tallest being Dinaric alps, Southern Scandinavia and Netherlands, all being rich in I lineages.

But I'm not certain about what the original I*-type looked like. Cro-magnid apperance to the side, which was predominately darker pigmented, lighter eyed and robust phenotype. However, majority of I2a-carriers among Slavs look rather dinarid than Cro-Magnid, excluding pockets in Montenegro (and Montenegro has lot more E-V13 than rest of dinarides), while North Germanics look more nordic.

It could be sexual selection and admixture with different groups, ofcourse. Yet the height remains the obvious link.

Regrading Dalmatians, I don't see Zagora Dalmatians being different than Herzegovians. Coastal Dalmatians may carry more ancient admixture, be it Greek, Italian, or in case of Dubrovnik, Sephardic Jewish. Coastal cities were least ethnically homogenous and it may have affected their apperance (height). I generally agree with you that coastal Dalmatians, be unmixed Croat or not, look more mediterranean compared to Herzegovians. They have more variety as well.

I'm not Slavonian but they are shorther than Southern Croats. Slavonia is most ethnically mixed area in Croatia, with Czech, Slovak, Hungarian ancestry being quite common. There are numerous Slavonians of Herzegovian ancestry, and they surely do increase average height in region ! Region of Central Croatia, where I'm from, is ganerally taller than Slavonia, and less mixed, except pockets of Serbs. And I'm not sure if R1a is more common in Central Croatia than I2, I feel the ratio would be pretty balanced.

My phenotype is hard to classify, I have broad forehead, broadest at cheekbone area, and narrow jaw. V-shaped, or triangual face, prominent nose, with medium pigmentation. I'm not sure what phenotype suits it best, I am probably mixed.
Yet autosomaly I'll be closer to you than to R1a-Serb or Hungarian, most likely.

Lastly, oldest found of R1 Mal'ta boy, ancestral to all R1-men was neither caucasoid nor mongoloid but as Tomanable said, something arhaic and extinct. Indo-Europeans appear to have been more ''mongoloid'' genetically (even tough mongoloids doesn't describe it best, rather Siberian/Central Asian), but predominately they were West Eurasian Caucasians. We need more ancient aDNA to know the whole picture.

MaxCRO
04-07-16, 10:51
The shortest males in Europe are in Southern Europe (especially in Italy, Iberia, Bulgaria, Romania).

North-Eastern Europe has rather tall males, Poles with the highest % of R1a in Europe are also tall.

Ukrainians are shorter than Poles. In terms of Y-DNA, they have less R1a and more I2a than Poles.

But I guess it can be related to nutrition as well (Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in Europe).

I have worked among Poles, Russians and Ukrainians for shorter period of time, and Poles appear tallest of the group.

Poles looked taller and more robust than either Russians or Ukrainians, according to my experience Russians were shortest and more gracile. I'm not sure if regional origin has something to do with it, as Poles I ackquainted with were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries. None of them had German sounding surnames or names, and I am familar with the fact that lot of Eastern Poles moved westwards after World War II, but I'm curious is there height and Y-cromosome distribution variety among Polish regions ?

Tomenable
04-07-16, 11:45
When you say Russians do you mean ethnic Russians or any citizens of Russia?

Because as you know there are hundreds of ethnic minority groups in Russia.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 12:20
were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries.

I have made detailed research on Silesian genetics recently.

Here are haplogroup frequencies in Silesia before the World Wars (sample size = 100):

Upper Silesia (sample size = 48):

Haplo R1a --- 63% (30 men)
Haplo R1b --- 10% (5 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 6% (3 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 6% (3 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 4% (2 men)
Haplo N1c --- 4% (2 men)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo G ----- 2% (1 man)

Lower Silesia (sample size = 48):

Haplo R1a --- 48% (23 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 19% (9 men)
Haplo R1b --- 10% (5 men)
Haplo G ----- 8% (4 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 4% (2 men)
Haplo I2a ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo E1b ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo N1c --- 2% (1 man)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (1 man)
Haplo T ----- 2% (1 man)

Entire Silesia (sample size = 100):

Haplo R1a --- 54% (54 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 13% (13 men)
Haplo R1b --- 11% (11 men)
Haplo J2 ----- 5% (5 men)
Haplo G ----- 5% (5 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 4% (4 men)
Haplo N1c --- 3% (3 men)
Haplo J1 ---- 2% (2 men)
Haplo I2a --- 1% (1 man)
Haplo Q ----- 1% (1 man)
Haplo T ----- 1% (1 man)

Surnames, places of birth, years of birth:

kit # - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade); all of these persons were born before WW2:

Haplo I1 - 13 / 100:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

Haplo R1b - 11 / 100:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

Haplo J2 - 5 / 100:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

Haplo E1b - 4 / 100:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

Haplo G2a - 3 / 100:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

Haplo N1c - 3 / 100:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

Haplo G2b - 2 / 100:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

Haplo J1 - 2 / 100:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

Haplo I2a - 1 / 100:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

Haplo T - 1 / 100:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Haplo Q - 1 / 100:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

===========================
===========================

Haplo R1a - 54 / 100:

Clade R1a-M417+:

kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Clade R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Clade R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Subclade Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

Subclade CTS1211 (M558):

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrawa, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)
kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681:

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Clade R1a-M458:

Subclade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Subclade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Clade R1a-Z93(xCTS6):

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)

Subclade R1a-CTS6: (= Ashkenazi Jewish subclade)

kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

===============================
===============================

Map (98 samples with exact places known):

https://s32.postimg.org/6op30x89h/Lower_and_Upper.png

https://s32.postimg.org/6op30x89h/Lower_and_Upper.png

=====================

Structure of R1a haplogroup in Silesia:

M417 - 54/54
---L664 - 1/54
---Z645 - 52/54
------Z93 - 3/52
------Z283 - 49/52
---------Z280 - 19/49
------------Z92 - 1/19
------------M558 - 17/19
---------------CTS3402 - 9/17
---------M458 - 30/48
------------L260 - 23/30
------------CTS11962 - 7/30

MaxCRO
04-07-16, 12:22
When you say Russians do you mean ethnic Russians or any citizens of Russia?

Because as you know there are hundreds of ethnic minority groups in Russia.

Ethnic Russians from Donbass. Contrary to stereotypes about Russians, they didn't look Fino-Ugric, or Tatar, but particulary Slavic, yet they are visibly shorter than Poles.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 12:35
As you can see above:

Silesia was predominantly R1a before WW2, and this applies also to German-speaking Lower Silesia.

This also applies to East Prussia, which was mostly R1a + N1c - also in its German-speaking parts:

East Prussia (sample size = 80):

Haplo R1a --- 44% (35 men)
Haplo N1c --- 24% (19 men)
Haplo R1b --- 15% (12 men)
Haplo I1 ----- 8% (6 men)
Haplo I2 ----- 5% (4 men)
Haplo E1b ---- 1% (1 man)
Haplo J2 ----- 1% (1 man)
Haplo G ------ 1% (1 man)
Haplo T ------ 1% (1 man)

Map showing places of birth of all 80 paternal ancestors from East Prussia:

https://s31.postimg.org/tky8fgp5n/Map_East_Prussia.png

Combined samples (excluding 4 Silesians with no exact birth place given):

https://s31.postimg.org/48yqwf7uj/Silesia_East_Prussia.png

Tomenable
04-07-16, 12:55
Details concerning that East Prussian sample of 80:

Haplogroup R1a - 35 men:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf), hg. R1a-M458
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk), hg. R1a-L365
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń), hg. R1a-M417
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica, hg. R1a-CTS3402
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan, hg. R1a-M417
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo), died in 1717, hg. R1a-CTS456
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo), hg. R1a-M512
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny), hg. R1a-L260
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno), hg. R1a-L365
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg), hg. R1a-CTS456
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi), hg. R1a-L260
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry), hg. R1a-CTS1211
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-L366
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo), hg. R1a-Z280
kit 275090 Martin Kurschus, born b4 WW2 in Memel (Klaipeda), hg. R1a-M512
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-M198
kit N46232 Christian Nikel, born in 1780 in Sommerau (Zabrowo), hg. R1a-CTS10893
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo), hg. R1a-L1029
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo), hg. R1a-CTS3402
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1a-M512
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. R1a-M198
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany), hg. R1a-L1280
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż), hg. R1a-CTS456
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), hg. R1a-L1029
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki), hg. R1a-Z283
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo), hg. R1a-Z283
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg), hg. R1a-Z283
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty), hg. R1a-Z92
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn), hg. R1a-M417

Haplogroup N1c - 19 men:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman), hg. N1c-L1025
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny), hg. N1c-L731
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg), hg. N1c-L550
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry), hg. N1c-L550
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit), hg. N1c-L550
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino)/Stallupönen (Nesterov), hg. N1c-M178
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (in Kaliningrad Oblast), hg. N1c-M178
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis), hg. N1c-M232
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken, hg. N1c-L1025
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg), hg. N1c-L1025
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein), hg. N1c-L1025
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo (near Tiegenhof), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. N1c-L1025
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė), hg. N1c-L1025

Haplogroup R1b U106 - 4 men:

kit E10648 Jakob Preuschoff, born in 1575 in Klenau (Klejnówko), hg. R1b-L48
kit 17375 Bäsner, born in 1840 in Heilsberg (Lidzbark Warmiński), hg. R1b-S5970
kit 253571 Heinrich Bartel, born in 1766 in Graudenz (Grudziądz), hg. R1b-U106
kit 266572 Karol Zalewski, born in 1812 in Rozogi (near Ortelsburg), hg. R1b-U106

Haplogroup R1b P312 - 2 men:

kit N69965 Otto Emil Kraft, born in 1893 in Tilsit (Sovetsk), hg. R1b-P312
kit 81967 Johann M. Wentzel, born in 1845 in Marienburg (Malbork), hg. R1b-DF13

Haplogroup R1b undefined subclade - 4 men:

kit E15373 Johann Voelkner, born in 1748 in Reddenau (Rodnowo), hg. R1b-M269
kit 59511 Johann Schwarm, born in 1814 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń), hg. R1b-M269
kit N112758 Ignatius Reis, born in 1858 in Wabcz, hg. R1b-M269
kit E4574 NN born in 1844 in Kallinowen, Kreis Lyck (Ełk), hg. R1b-M269

Haplo R1b Eastern branch ("haplotype 35") - 2 men:

kit N14933 Walenty Straszewski, born in 1731 in Waldowo Szlacheckie, hg. R1b-Z2103
kit N43078 NN born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. R1b-L23

Haplogroup I1 - 6 men:

kit 125721 Gustav Schedlinski born b4 WW2 in Seedorf (Jeziorowskie), hg. I1-M253
kit 181479 Ludwig Muller born in 1858 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo), hg. I1-Z60
kit 164185 August Napierski born in 1879 in Sensburg (Mrągowo), hg. I1-P109
kit 169101 Otto Bewer born in year 1899 in Groß Skaisgirren, hg. I1-M253
kit 330214 Heinrich Kardell, born in 1841 in Graudenz (Grudziądz), hg. I1-M253
kit 64526 Jurgis Serapins, born in 1857 in Picktupöhnen (Piktupenai), hg. I1-M253

Haplogroup I2a - 4 men:

kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty), hg. I2a-P37
kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda), hg. I2a-M423
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno), hg. I2a-M423
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta), hg. I2a-M423

Haplogroup J2-PF5456 (typically Jewish subclade) - 1 man:

kit 173911 Wolf Zimak alias Simon Freybuschewitz born in Gilgenburg (Dąbrówno), died in 1884, hg. J-PF5456

Haplogroup E1b-V13 - 1 man:

kit E4759 Johan Krüger born in 1680 in Wehlau (Znamensk), hg. E-V13

Haplogroup G-M201 - 1 man:

kit 260477 Walkau, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad), hg. G-M201

Haplogroup T - 1 man:

kit 96408 Michael Hohenfeld, born in Tolkemit (Tolkmicko), hg. T-M70

MaxCRO
04-07-16, 12:55
Thanks man ! That is a quality data.

Yes, I can see Silesia was overwhelmingly Polish before the WW2.

Regarding East Prussians, should have not they been of Baltic origin ? I tought Teutonic order exterminated them, but this data shows they were predominately native northeastern Europeans rather than ''Germans''.


Could I ask a off-topic question ? I see your Y-DNA is R1b. Do you have any known German ancestry ? Also, what kind of R1b subclades are common among ethnic Poles ?

Thanks in advance.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 12:57
Yes, I can see Silesia was overwhelmingly Polish before the WW2.

No. It was mostly German, but those Germans were largely descended from Poles.

Check "Germanization" (= the process of adoption of German language and culture).


Regarding East Prussians, should have not theiy been of Baltic origin ?

Yes, N1c in East Prussia indicates Baltic origin, and R1a either Baltic or Slavic origin.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 13:02
I see your Y-DNA is R1b. Do you have any known German ancestry ?

I have known German ancestry, but in my mother's line (my maternal grandfather's surname = Meller).

So this German ancestry does not affect my Y-DNA haplogroup. BTW, my R1b is probably P312->U152->L2.

Here is what Lawrence Mayka told me about my R1b, when I asked him about matches in Slavic nations:


Your Y-DNA Ancestral Origins page lists the ancestry of your exact 12-marker matches. The list includes

Czech Republic 4 1076 0.4% Bohemia (1)
Poland 4 5898 0.1% Prussia (1)
Russian Federation 1 6647 < 0.1 %

So you do have exact matches from Poland and neighboring countries. Three of your exact 12-marker matches are in our project:

134944 Frederick Stanley Zydel R1b-P312 : U152+ L2+ (L2 SNP Pack Needed)
133147 Petr Cibulka R1b-P312 : U152+ L2+ FGC11577+
B26940 Patrick Redgate (Adopted) R1b-P312 : DF27+ Z196+ L176.2+ SRY2627+ Z207+

Your Y-DNA Haplogroup Origins page indeed lists a plethora of different clades. But if we look only at the Slavic countries (Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Russian Federation), we see only the following exact 12-marker matches:

R-L2 Czech Republic - 1
R-L2 Poland - 1
R-U106 Russian Federation - 1

Just from this, I would say it is more likely that you belong to R-L2, less likely R-U106, and even less likely anything else.

Nevertheless, your initial intuition is correct: The best choice for you is the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack, for $99.

So my R1b might be of Bohemian / Czech origin (and ultimately it is probably Celtic or Italo-Celtic).

Tomenable
04-07-16, 13:16
Also, what kind of R1b subclades are common among ethnic Poles ?

U106, U152, Z2103, DF27 and L21 are most common among Poles.

My (probable) L2 is the most common subclade of U152 in Poland.

Z2103 (there is also some L23* and M269*) = "Eastern" branch.

Some very basal subclades of L51* can also be found in Poland.

===========================

Polish U106 = mostly (slightly over half) Z9 and L47 subclades.

And the most common sub-branch of Polish DF27 is R1b-Z196.

===========================

I have upgraded Y12 to Y37, so soon I will learn what subclade it is.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 14:03
Ethnic Russians from Donbass.

Russians from Donbass probably aren't "ethnically pure" Russians.

That region was a melting pot historically (and prehistorically too).

Tomenable
04-07-16, 14:08
Lastly, oldest found of R1 Mal'ta boy, ancestral to all R1-men

Mal'ta boy died as a boy - so he wasn't ancestral to anyone (he did not have children). :)

And he was actually R*, so a basal subclade of R, which is ancestral to both R1 and to R2.

R2 is common in India and the Middle East, and was in ancient DNA from Neolithic Iran.

MaxCRO
04-07-16, 15:44
Mal'ta boy died as a boy - so he wasn't ancestral to anyone (he did not have children). :)

And he was actually R*, so a basal subclade of R, which is ancestral to both R1 and to R2.

R2 is common in India and the Middle East, and was in ancient DNA from Neolithic Iran.

Yes, correct.


Russians from Donbass probably aren't "ethnically pure" Russians.

That region was a melting pot historically (and prehistorically too).

Can you be more specific ?

Dinarid
04-07-16, 20:10
I have worked among Poles, Russians and Ukrainians for shorter period of time, and Poles appear tallest of the group.

Poles looked taller and more robust than either Russians or Ukrainians, according to my experience Russians were shortest and more gracile. I'm not sure if regional origin has something to do with it, as Poles I ackquainted with were mostly Silesians, where German settlers lived for centuries. None of them had German sounding surnames or names, and I am familar with the fact that lot of Eastern Poles moved westwards after World War II, but I'm curious is there height and Y-cromosome distribution variety among Polish regions ?

I've nether thought of Russians as "gracile". They seem short and stocky to me. Ukrainians from my experience can be tall and slender. Poles are more built than either I think.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 20:31
Can you be more specific ?

There is a mix of both ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians in that region.

It was also on the border of the Steppe, so admixtures from various Nomadic Steppe peoples were possible.

And also it is an industrial region, so workers of various ethnicities immigrate.

Tomenable
04-07-16, 22:39
Dinaric,

This seems to be the oldest brachycephalic population in Europe (20,000 - 15,000 years ago):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furfooz

Dinarid
05-07-16, 03:53
Is there any haplogroup data?

Tomenable
05-07-16, 21:45
^^^ Nope, AFAIK.

Dinarid
05-07-16, 22:59
Unfortunate. One would wonder why some who were so intent on studying archaic human remains would do so little to ensure their survival, so that in a future with more advanced technology we could do so much more with them.

I must also thank you, as an 'R-man', for not getting offended over how people looked 30,000 years ago. Some silly Nordicists still persist with their insistence that Haplogroup R men were a six-foot-tall master race that founded all of European civilization as we know it today. I have reconsidered my old view that Q and R were Mongoloid and now believe that they were most likely an ancestral race before these two split, and then absorbed characteristics from both groups. Even then, sometimes debates over this get nowhere, like classifying Haplogroup R as a "Caucasoid" lineage (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32331-Central-Asian-paternal-Y-DNA-(-Turkish-chart-)-Mongoloid-Caucasian-haplogroup) among Central Asian men and then doing nothing to refute my arguments to the contrary.

I found on online anthropology discussion boards these two polls relating to Y-DNA haplogroups and male height:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?91500-Haplogroup-I-Only-Height-Poll
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/archive/index.php/t-1021.html

Maybe we should do our own?

Tomenable
06-07-16, 11:58
He is right. Haplogroup K2 split into NO and K2b. Mongoloids are predominantly NO (mostly O).

On the other hand, from K2b are descended Australoids (haplogroup K2b1 - or MS) and haplogroup P. Australoids are closer to Caucasoids than to Mongoloids, so logically we should assume that P wasn't Mongoloid. From P descended Q and R and neither of them was Mongoloid (Paleo-Americans such as Kennewick Man weren't Mongoloid, despite having Q).

Mongoloid traits evolved in the Americas later - compare this Paleo-American with a recent Native American:

https://physicalanthropologymzi.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/sin-tc3adtulo1.jpg

https://physicalanthropologymzi.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/sin-tc3adtulo1.jpg

https://s32.postimg.org/u0fun3bpv/Mong_Aus.png

Tomenable
06-07-16, 12:13
Only haplogroups O and N are most strongly correlated with Mongoloid peoples:

http://i61.tinypic.com/4r9p3c.png

http://s5.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2014/08/23/0/1408740476_769777089.PNG

Tomenable
06-07-16, 12:21
Haplogroup Q was found among Afontova Gora peoples, who were autosomally ANE.

ANE admixture cannot be found among East Asian Mongoloids today - see the map:

Highest levels of ANE admixture are observed in Native Americans and in Europeans:

East Asian Mongoloids have no ANE admixture (dark blue colour) or very low levels:

https://s31.postimg.org/7fkubwzff/ANE_admixture.png

Tomenable
06-07-16, 12:29
BTW - here a large collection of old photos of Native Americans:

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Pictures/American-Indians-00.html

Dinarid
06-07-16, 21:05
Then how did Haplogroup I become Caucasoid?

Angela
06-07-16, 22:46
Well, certain traits, like the EDAR complex, labeled as "Mongoloid" by a lot of anthropologists, were found in the SHG, the Swedish hunter-gatherers, who were part WHG and part EHG by the latest modeling, and since WHG didn't have them, they must have been in EHG, who are a mix of WHG and ANE, and again, WHG doesn't have them, so they must have been in certain ANE tribes. That makes sense because they may have been far northern adaptations, and these people inhabited the far north of Eurasia.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/natural-selection-and-ancient-european.html

Let's not forget too that Mal'ta was described as having "Mongoloid" traits, and even some of the reconstructions of one of the EHG shows that.

In fact, some of the speculation from knowledgeable people on the blogger sites indicates that some ANE did go into East Asians, and that may be where these EDAR traits entered their gene pool. Admixture has its place, but the formal statistical methods that have been developed in the last year or two are our best option for figuring these things out.

The problem comes in when we try to apply terms like "Mongoloid" or "Caucasoid" to populations that existed so long ago that the "package" of "phenotypes" by which certain "breeding groups" could be described, didn't yet exist.

bicicleur
06-07-16, 23:13
He is right. Haplogroup K2 split into NO and K2b. Mongoloids are predominantly NO (mostly O).

On the other hand, from K2b are descended Australoids (haplogroup K2b1 - or MS) and haplogroup P. Australoids are closer to Caucasoids than to Mongoloids, so logically we should assume that P wasn't Mongoloid. From P descended Q and R and neither of them was Mongoloid (Paleo-Americans such as Kennewick Man weren't Mongoloid, despite having Q).

Mongoloid traits evolved in the Americas later - compare this Paleo-American with a recent Native American:

https://physicalanthropologymzi.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/sin-tc3adtulo1.jpg

https://physicalanthropologymzi.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/sin-tc3adtulo1.jpg

https://s32.postimg.org/u0fun3bpv/Mong_Aus.png

so the Mongoloid father would be K2 (45 ka) or NO (42 ka)
what about Usht-Ishim? he was pré-K2
and what about C2b? did they become Mongoloid through admixture?

Dinarid
07-07-16, 03:26
If you are arguing that P, Q and R were Australoid rather than Mongoloid that still doesn't make them Caucasoid. I agree with the arguments that Angela has made about race but I do think that in some cases "breeding groups" as you've called them were, in fact, already established. There are still a lot of isolated populations throughout the world, albeit maybe less so in Eurasia.

Edit:
I am now considering that C may have been the original Australoid lineage. We can find very old examples of Haplogroup C in Europe associated with some of the oldest populations, who often had slight Australoid features.

MOESAN
09-07-16, 14:39
I'm not sure it's reasonable and useful coming to put my word here but?
1- brachycephally occurred in several times and places, among previously dolichocephalic pops.
2- 'cromagnoids' were not 'brünnoids/capelloids: this last group of types seems come from East (Ukraina?) later, less through South at first sight, compared to "older" 'cromagnoids'
3- It's true it seems brachycephally developped easier among 'cromagnoids' beginning around 6000 BC, seemingly. But it's uneasy to be too affirmative. My personal opinion is that the Mesolithic various mix of 'cromagnoids'+'brünnoids' in Europe knew a progressive brachycephalization, for unkown causes: proposed: iodin (far from sea, moutainous regions) plus/or neolithization (including food, physcial activities changes and more small circles of mating, all acting for differentes causes. I want not go into details here, there is no accord. Neolithization seems a bit too late for the first sub-brachyphalsobserved in Western Europe: but it could have acted upon 'alpine' perhpas derived from brachycephalized dominantly 'cromagnoids' pops, separating them partly from 'borreby' types. That said, 'borreby' types seems appearing in Scandinavia North-Germany relatively lately (3000 BC), maybe coming from East (S-E Baltic regions?); we know eastern HGs were larger than western HGs
4- brachycephalization occurred too among 'mongoloids' or 'east-asians' - seemingly in an independant way. And the result Partial brachycephalization occurred too among forest SSA ('negroids') and some others: ancient Congo and around and some other places of Black Africa without visible link between them at first sight
5- the most of our today features separating us in a striking way, were not present 100000 years ago, or very less marked
6- the way modern groups separated them from older branches is neither linear nor simple, nor shared by all new branches: some features are almost exclusives to 'negroids', 'europoids' and 'mongoloids', other features are not exclusive, or innovations are not shared by all members of these big rough groupings: but some groups of Humans did not participate in this rough global typification (english?): old South-East Asians (Papoos, Australoids, Veddoids) or some elements among Amerindians; their look evolved, but no so far as others; Australoids seem the closer to "primitive" forms (but look at their long legs), North Amerindians seem not having choosen between 'europoid' and 'mongoloid'; here I simplify a bit - look at Jomon people, and today Aïnous!
7- old pops of BA in Central Asia until Siberia were strikingly 'europoid': they were at the opposite of 'mongoloids', even compared to the geographically closer ones - some proto-Finns could be a bit closer to this BA people, but it's difficult to tell if they are crossings or old undifferentiated forms. So, no! the supposed I-Eans of eastern Steppes were not something close to Kets or whoever you could will.
&! stature: Poles are definitely NOT among high statured Europeans,as a mean, and they never were; some regions it's true were a bit up the average, but some eastern Poland regions were very far under this average stature; Nothing to be compared to Scandinavians or West-Balkans pops of today or of past;
typical Corded were tall, dolichocephalic, leptoprosope, very long but bonny rugged enough faced (zugomatics), long bodied; something evocating for me 'nordic' + remnants of eastern 'brünnoid', these last ones not so far from some protosomething present in the 'indo-afghan' type, what push to caution: 'bünnoidlike' into 'indo-afghan' or already some imput of less rugged 'indo-afghan' types in Steppes modifying the mean? here again: no 'mongoloid' - according to specialists, the first Scythians close to Siberia men were without 'mongoloid' imput concerning body, the 'mongoloid' element increased as time passed

Tomenable
09-07-16, 22:09
If you are arguing that P, Q and R were Australoid rather than Mongoloid that still doesn't make them Caucasoid.

Figure 4.1. from this book (published in 2015) seems to indicate, that Caucasoids are ancestral to other Non-African races:

Link to book (PDF): http://openpsych.net/OBG/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/The-Nature-of-Race-the-Genealogy-of-the-Concept-and-the-Biological-Constructs-Contemporaneous-Utility-Final.pdf

Abstract: http://openpsych.net/OBG/2015/06/the-nature-of-race/

Maybe both Mongoloids, Australoids and Amerinds all evolved from Caucasoids, who are the oldest of Non-African races?:

Or maybe 50,000 - 40,000 years ago humans simply did not yet look like modern race groups, which emerged only later?

https://s32.postimg.org/bbvyudjxx/Graph_races.png

MOESAN
10-07-16, 00:09
Unstable ground. But I still think australoids are the closest to the ancient forms of out-of-Africa people. Maybe the presence of not-noise %s of some poolings 'oceanian' component among all humans could be a kind of confirmation of this. By the way this component is everytime growing higher in %s as you go back in time, as do 'south-asian'. A part of this 'southasian' could be associated with a part of 'oceanian' to mark the trail of this humanity from Africa to Austrasia?