Average CWC skull metrics

Tomenable

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CEPHALIC INDEX (C.I.) =

maximum head breadth * 100
_________________________

maximum head length

German system:

C.I. 55.0 - 59.9 = ultradolichocephalic (extremely long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 60.0 - 64.9 = hyperdolichocephalic (very long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. - 74.9 = dolichocephalic (long-/narrow-headed)
C.I. 75.0 - 79.9 = mesocephalic (intermediate in head form)
C.I. 80.0 - = brachycephalic (round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 85.0 - 89.9 = hyperbrachycephalic (very round-/short-/broad-headed)
C.I. 90.0 - 94.9 = ultrabrachycephalic (extremely round-/short-/broad-headed)

French system:

C.I. - 75.00 = dolichocephalic
C.I. 75.01 - 77.77 = subdolichocephalic
C.I. 77.78 - 80.00 = mesocephalic
C.I. 80.01 - 83.33 = subbrachycephalic
C.I. 83.34 - = brachycephalic

Average CWC skull metrics (found on another forum):

Head lenght: 205,75 mm
Head breadht: 148,75 mm
Minium Frontal: 105,5 mm
Byzigomatic: 135,75 mm
Total facial height: 129,75 mm
Upper facial height: 76,5 mm
Nasal height: 59,25 mm
Nasal breadht: 35 mm
Bigonial: 103 mm
Head Height: 155 mm

So C.I. for CWC skulls would be:

148,75 * 100
___________

205,75

= 14875 : 205,75 = 72.30

So CWC skulls on average were dolichocephalic (long-/narrow-headed).
 
Can you translate the facial measurements (i.e. euryprosopic, mesoprosopic, leptoprosopic)? Also I can't find anything about haplogroups. And I find it hard to believe they were related to ancient steppe peoples/Indo-Europeans, who were probably brachycephalic, euryprosopic and platyrrhine like most Mongoloids and original R-carriers.
 
Indo-Europeans could be Mongoloid only if they originated from Mongolia or from China.

Populations living to the west of the Altai Mountains were fully Caucasoid before the Iron Age.

For example here is data from prof. Ismagulov of the University of Astana in Kazakhstan:

http://s15.postimg.org/5jqlfhl0b/Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg

Kazakh_genesis_Ismagulov.jpg


This is confirmed by mtDNA frequencies in ancient DNA:

A. Frequency of East Asian maternal haplogroups before or until the Iron Age.

B. Frequency of East Asian maternal haplogroups by the end of the Iron Age.

http://s24.postimg.org/6td3u1p85/paz2.png

paz2.png
 
Then "proto-Europid" must mean something closer to Mongoloid than true ancient Europid. If we consider the facts, Haplogroup R was originally Mongoloid, and this was the Indo-European haplogroup. I guess if you argue that they had acquired "West Eurasian" features before they migrated to Europe, then I can understand that, but the fact remains (although some deny it) that the first men to carry Haplogroup R had a Mongoloid appearance. But I assume that this is so long ago that it is of much less importance than the autosomal admixture before as well as after the formation of the Indo-Europeans.
 
If we consider the facts, Haplogroup R was originally Mongoloid

R could not be Mongoloid due to its age. Haplogroup R is around 32,000 years old according to YFull:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R/

And Mongoloid traits fully developed only around 25,000 years ago, so they are much, much younger:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/timelines-of-prehistory/


  • 45–25 thousand years ago — proto-Mongoloids in Northern China, central and eastern Mongolia, and Transbaikalia evolve into Mongoloids. The 370A mutation in the EDAR gene results in Sinodonty, stiff hair, small breasts, and higher sweat gland density. The epicanthic fold is also evolved.

Caucasoids also evolved during the same period of time:


  • 45–25 thousand years ago — proto-Caucasoids in Europe, the Middle East, and Siberia west of Lake Baikal evolve into Caucasoids.
 
Haplogroups R and Q split round 45,000 years ago - so at the beginning of the split of Proto-Mongoloids from Proto-Caucasoids:

Haplogroups M and S (also descended from K2b just like P), are typically Australoid; and Australoid skull is closer to Caucasoid:

http://s32.postimg.org/k8goin551/YDNA_Tree.png

YDNA_Tree.png
 
Sorry, edited:

I think that perhaps they may have had a mixed appearance- indeed, we can see some Caucasoid traits among peoples who carry Q like the Kets and some unmixed Native Americans. But I would not correlate Haplogroup R with Caucasoid features. I guess we can conclude that Q and R both had features this ancient population from which both Mongoloids and Caucasoids originate, and the Ket resemble most closely this appearance.

On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic. And it is quite stupid to write off Dinaric brachycephaly as cradleboarding. At first I thought that R-carrying Indo-Europeans brought brachycephaly en masse into Europe, with the exception of the Balkans where it was already present. But this would assume that gene flow from the Balkans would have no effects on head shape in the rest of Europe.

However, I did read a study that Croats from the Dalmatian coast (as in, on exactly the coast and not just a short distance inland, on the border with Herzegovina) are "dolichocephalic, mesoprosopic". I have noticed that Croats from the coast are usually short, sometimes very short compared to Bosnian Croats, and despite having longer, narrower heads they tend to have shorter, broader faces, with little noses (compared to our very large beaks). Slavonia would appear to be the most brachycephalic, and also genetically the most Slavic. Highest % of R1a. Slavonians are also shorter than other Croats and have rounder heads with flatter, broader faces. I do see a correlation with R1a and shorter stature and a very slight tendency to "Mongoloid" features as in a simple correlation. On the Dalmatian coast I assume there is a reduced frequency of I, but I don't know what else there is that can be correlated with these features.
 
I don't believe that R suddenly became Caucasoid.

It never was Mongoloid in the 1st place. There is no R in China, Japan, Vietnam or Korea.

Even haplogroup Q - R's sibling - is not so common among most Mongoloid populations today.

Native Americans are not 100% Mongoloid, but ~70% Mongoloid + ~30% Caucasoid mix.
 
On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic.

What "ancient Europeans" ???

For example Cro-Magnid type is brachycephalic, and is very ancient in Europe.
 
What "ancient Europeans" ???

For example Cro-Magnid type is brachycephalic, and is very ancient in Europe.
No, the Cro-Magnons were dolichocephalic. They were euryprosopic, but quite dolichocephalic. I believe that Neanderthals and the various Homo Sapiens sapiens types (including Cro-Magnons) in ancient Europe were overall a strongly dolichocephalic population.
 
Sorry, edited:

I think that perhaps they may have had a mixed appearance- indeed, we can see some Caucasoid traits among peoples who carry Q like the Kets and some unmixed Native Americans. But I would not correlate Haplogroup R with Caucasoid features. I guess we can conclude that Q and R both had features this ancient population from which both Mongoloids and Caucasoids originate, and the Ket resemble most closely this appearance.

On the other hand, I (especially I2) has some features that are atypical for ancient Europeans. For instance, we tend to be brachycephalic, whereas I1 (associated with "Nordic" features) is usually dolichocephalic. And it is quite stupid to write off Dinaric brachycephaly as cradleboarding. At first I thought that R-carrying Indo-Europeans brought brachycephaly en masse into Europe, with the exception of the Balkans where it was already present. But this would assume that gene flow from the Balkans would have no effects on head shape in the rest of Europe.

However, I did read a study that Croats from the Dalmatian coast (as in, on exactly the coast and not just a short distance inland, on the border with Herzegovina) are "dolichocephalic, mesoprosopic". I have noticed that Croats from the coast are usually short, sometimes very short compared to Bosnian Croats, and despite having longer, narrower heads they tend to have shorter, broader faces, with little noses (compared to our very large beaks). Slavonia would appear to be the most brachycephalic, and also genetically the most Slavic. Highest % of R1a. Slavonians are also shorter than other Croats and have rounder heads with flatter, broader faces. I do see a correlation with R1a and shorter stature and a very slight tendency to "Mongoloid" features as in a simple correlation. On the Dalmatian coast I assume there is a reduced frequency of I, but I don't know what else there is that can be correlated with these features.

Good to see another Croat here.

However, it's doubtful to corelate Y-DNA with racial type, at least in modern times.

I wouldn't call Dalmatian Croats short, even though they are shorter compared to Herzegovian Croats. Well, those two groups are more similar to each other than to Zagorje Croats for instance.


My Y-Dna is typically Slavic and connected to East European apperance, Baltid racial type, however, I am quite tall, my nose is prominent and I have hawkish profile. According to you such physical description fits better with I2 than R1a type.

There is significant percentage of I2-dinaric haplotype in Panonnian Croatia as well, not much less than R1a.

And how can R1-haplotype have any correlation with Mongoloids ? It's West Eurasian hg, not even N1c is fully mongoloid.

Autosomal admixture has most say in apperance, even though ancient populations associated with certain haplotypes did have specific look.
 
East Baltid phenotype correlates with N1c haplogroup if anything, not with R1a.
 
East Baltid phenotype correlates with N1c haplogroup if anything, not with R1a.

Agreed.

However majority of R1a-carrying males seem to be dominantely round headed today. What is the cause of it, sice originally it was long.headed type ?

 
What is the cause of it

I don't know.

But European Jews were/are also brachycephalic (C.I. 81.5 - 83.0), despite being descended from dolichocephalic Mediterranids (?).

Source:

Maurice Fishberg, "Physical Anthropology of the Jews. I. The Cephalic Index", published in: "American Anthropologist", Vol. 4, No. 4, 1902.

So apparently the same process of brachycephalization which affected descendants of Corded Ware, also affected the Jewish Diaspora.

Here is what Fishberg wrote:

"(...) Setting aside the Caucasian and also the African Jews, we find that the cephalic index of nearly all European Jews is between 81.5 and 83.0, showing only a limited variability, which may be attributed to the usual discrepancies between the different series of measurements of a single and homogeneous race. Another remarkable fact is the striking absence of dolichocephaly, varying from one percent in Blechman's to 7.3 in Glück's series; and at the same time there seems to be a marked preponderance of the brachycephalic type - the results of all observers show that over 60 percent of the individuals measured had a C.I. of over 80. This is about as far as we can go while attempting to study the head-form of the Jews from the accumulated anthropological literature of today. (...)"

==================

Am I right to assume that Ancient Jews were dolichocephalic, like the Mediterranid subrace ???
 
Good to see another Croat here.

However, it's doubtful to corelate Y-DNA with racial type, at least in modern times.

I wouldn't call Dalmatian Croats short, even though they are shorter compared to Herzegovian Croats. Well, those two groups are more similar to each other than to Zagorje Croats for instance.


My Y-Dna is typically Slavic and connected to East European apperance, Baltid racial type, however, I am quite tall, my nose is prominent and I have hawkish profile. According to you such physical description fits better with I2 than R1a type.

There is significant percentage of I2-dinaric haplotype in Panonnian Croatia as well, not much less than R1a.

And how can R1-haplotype have any correlation with Mongoloids ? It's West Eurasian hg, not even N1c is fully mongoloid.

Autosomal admixture has most say in apperance, even though ancient populations associated with certain haplotypes did have specific look.

Yes, always! I am so comforted when I come across Croatians- I'm sure all Herzegovinian Croats feel the same. One day we will be free from damned Islam.

I actually agree with you about correlating racial type with DNA, and I've posted about this on another thread. I was instead talking about the original appearance of the people in which the mutation for this haplogroup occurred. And actually, Y-DNA plays a very large role in a man's height. Other than that I think there may be some genes on the Y chromosome that affect appearance that we haven't discovered but yes, I generally agree that their importance is minimal compared to autosomal.

I understand that Dalmatian Croats can be tall, and I seen many who are. But, in some coastal towns (the largest example being Dubrovnik) you see a lot of really short people. I mean like men under 170cm. And they have little features too unlike the beak like you and I and most Croats (they also lack what I've noticed in least in my case and most others I've seen, the very prominent chin), but for some reason the men seem to have particularly strong, wide jaws.

I guess I may be biased to what short means, because I'm 192cm, but the point remains. Zagreb I believe is more mixed, because of its size importance on the national level there is likely to be greater influence from different gene pools. I've seen both very tall and very short people in Zagreb. The rest of Slavonia seems to be on the shorter side though.

You describe yourself as "Baltid" by which I assume you mean short, broad, flat face, but with the exception being tall stature and a long, prominent beak nose. That sounds like Blanka Vlašić before her nose job. And yes, your height and nasal profile sound like someone with I2, typically. I am not claiming this will always be the case.

Anyway I would love to take a poll of men on Eupedia for haplogroup and height to see if there is any correlation. I'm sure that autosomal admixture will have less of an influence if we take into account the American members of Western European descent, personally I believe that an Anglo-Saxon-American man with I1 will not have much genetic distance with a man of the same ethnic group but R1b. Also, perhaps the I2 in Slavonia accounts for the tall people there?

My point, which I have now reconsidered, about R-Mongoloids, was that the first men to carry R had a Mongoloid appearance. Now again I reconsider due to Tomenable's claims that Caucasoids and Mongoloids separated later, so perhaps they had an archaic appearance that is rare in modern times before intermarrying into Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations. I think maybe the Ket people (indigenous Siberian, highest frequency of Q) retain these features?
 

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