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View Full Version : Tepe Hasanlu F38 belongs to R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103 ( Zagros - Iron Age )



Alpenjager
15-07-16, 01:46
Tepe Hasanlu - The Early Iron Age (3,250-2800 YBP)

"F38 belongs to sub-haplogroup R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103. This lineage can be included in the L23(xM412) clade, which is characterized by frequencies higher than 10% in the Caucasus, Turkey, Southeastern Europe, and Circum-Uralic populations, and is mostly found at very low frequencies in Western Europe. This pattern sharply contrasts with the distribution of M412-derived Y-chromosomes, which are very common in Western Europe but rare in the 13East.

The Iron Age sample (F38) from Zagros is part of the N1a3a haplogroup of the N1a clade,which is observed at low frequency among modern Iranians. N1a is found mostly in the Arabian Peninsula and Northeast Africa, but also in Central Asia and Southern Siberia at lowerfrequencies. However, a few ancient samples such as the NE7 individual from the Neolithic period in Hungary also represent an mtDNA HG derived from N1a. The N1a subclade appears in Europe together with the establishment of early farmer communities and has arelatively high frequency in early European farmers and also in Neolithic NW-Anatolia"

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943

Sile
15-07-16, 02:06
Tepe Hasanlu - The Early Iron Age (3,250-2800 YBP)

"F38 belongs to sub-haplogroup R1b1a2a2-CTS1078/Z2103. This lineage can be included in the L23(xM412) clade, which is characterized by frequencies higher than 10% in the Caucasus, Turkey, Southeastern Europe, and Circum-Uralic populations, and is mostly found at very low frequencies in Western Europe. This pattern sharply contrasts with the distribution of M412-derived Y-chromosomes, which are very common in Western Europe but rare in the 13East.

The Iron Age sample (F38) from Zagros is part of the N1a3a haplogroup of the N1a clade,which is observed at low frequency among modern Iranians. N1a is found mostly in the Arabian Peninsula and Northeast Africa, but also in Central Asia and Southern Siberia at lowerfrequencies. However, a few ancient samples such as the NE7 individual from the Neolithic period in Hungary also represent an mtDNA HG derived from N1a. The N1a subclade appears in Europe together with the establishment of early farmer communities and has arelatively high frequency in early European farmers and also in Neolithic NW-Anatolia"

thanks

The only other Ydna they found belonged to G2b group

dodona
15-07-16, 07:34
..........source?

bicicleur
15-07-16, 08:28
new DNA from the Zagros Mts

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943.full

bicicleur
15-07-16, 11:40
it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

LeBrok
15-07-16, 16:26
I glanced at the paper only. Do they confirm my scepticism of Iranian Neolithic taking part in EEF?

Angela
15-07-16, 17:43
it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

With all of the usual caveats about PCAs and without having pored over the whole paper, these are some of my initial reactions:

Sardinians are very close to the original European and northwest Anatolian farmers. How likely is it that Hellenthal and Busby et al (same group) are correct that they're the product of a very recent admixture with Egyptians? I think on this one Xue et al may be correct, and some of these programs just can't figure out southern European genetics.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(15)00949-5.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24531965
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf


Mal'ta and the European foragers and the Iberian Neolithics are outside modern Eurasian genetic variation, but the European farmers and the CHG are not. The European foragers and the Iranian Neolithic are closer than Mal'ta, however. Speaking of Mal'ta, one might think it's just a function of age, but look at Ust'Ishim. He seems to cluster very comfortably with modern Indians. It may be that Mal'ta is not very representative of "ANE". I wonder what would have happened if Afontova Gora had been included.

As before, the Hungarian Bronze Age clusters with southern Europeans. (For what it's worth, on the PUNT calculator that's the Bronze Age population to which I'm closest, and nobody is more southern European than I am.) A few of the Bronze Age samples cluster with the far northern Russians and the Mordovians ( Aren't they the ones with Siberian who couldn't be modeled by Lazaridis and Haak as fitting in the three ancient population model?)

Tomenable
16-07-16, 11:20
I glanced at the paper only. Do they confirm my scepticism of Iranian Neolithic taking part in EEF?Abstract:

We sequenced Early Neolithic genomes from the Zagros region of Iran (eastern Fertile Crescent), where some of the earliest evidence for farming is found, and identify a previously uncharacterized population that is neither ancestral to the first European farmers nor has contributed significantly to the ancestry of modern Europeans. These people are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46-77,000 years ago and show affinities to modern day Pakistani and Afghan populations, but particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians. We conclude that multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations adopted farming in SW-Asia, that components of pre-Neolithic population structure were preserved as farming spread into neighboring regions, and that the Zagros region was the cradle of eastward expansion.

berun
16-07-16, 11:59
Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?

Tomenable
16-07-16, 12:00
There is an Iron Age sample of R1b-Z2103 in this study, from a Mannean burial.

Do we have his autosomal DNA to see if the guy was Steppe-admixed ???

Manneans were Non-IE speakers (as were the Kura-Araxes people, among whom another R1b sample was found previously). If they were subjected to an ever increasing Iranian influence, then we would expect to find the Indo-Iranian marker R1a-Z93:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannaeans#Ethnicity

Kura-Araxes were Hurro-Urartian speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura–Araxes_culture#Ethno-linguistic_makeup

Here is my map of attested Non-IE languages of the Middle East, with Manneans in North-Western Iran:

https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png

https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png

Many linguists suggest that Hurrian, Urartian and Mannean languages were related (parts of the same family). This is why the map posted above shows all of them painted with the same colour. Kassite-speakers were likely also related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages#Use

We have R1b from Hurro-Urartian speaking Kura-Araxes, and another R1b from Mannean-speakers.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy

Tomenable
16-07-16, 12:06
MANNAEA AND ADJACENT REGIONS:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/4300620?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mannea

Linguistic analysis of the anthroponymy:

https://abload.de/img/manna1_mfa_n4ujw.png

Linguistic analysis of the toponymy:

https://abload.de/img/manna2_mfa_n8ug0.png

Tomenable
16-07-16, 12:34
The Iranian penetration - mentioned by these links:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannaeans#Ethnicity

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mannea

Was mostly Scythian penetration from the Steppe:

http://grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/10701/4291

http://www.abload.de/img/4co5u.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture#Genetics

Tomenable
16-07-16, 13:44
This R1b-Z2103 sample is man F38, one of inhabitants of Hasanlu:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teppe_Hasanlu

He lived in 971-832 BC. In ~800 BC, Hasanlu was destroyed by Urartu.

====================

Hasanlu was a Mannean city:


http://historum.com/general-history/30247-who-aryans-5.html#post1077027?postcount=48


Lake Matianus (Latin: Lacus Matianus) is an old name for Lake Urmia. It was the center of the Mannaean Kingdom, a potential Mannaean settlement represented by the ruin mound of Hasanlu was on the south side of Lake Matianus.

Mannae was overrun by a people who were called Matiani or Matieni, an Iranic people variously identified as Scythian, Saka, Sarmatian, or Cimmerian.

The Mannaeans (country name Mannea; Akkadian: Mannai, Biblical Minni) were an ancient people who lived in the territory of present-day Iran and Azerbaijan, around the 10th to 7th centuries BC.

Beginning around 800 BC, the region became contested ground between Urartu, who built several forts on the territory of Mannea, and Assyria ... The Mannaean kingdom reached the pinnacle of its power during the reign of Iranzu (ca. 725-720 BC) ... In 716 BC, king Sargon II of Assyria moved against Mannea, where the ruler Aza, son of Iranzu, had been deposed by Ullusunu with the help of the Urartians. Sargon took Izirtu, and stationed troops in Parsua (Parsua was distinct from Parsumash located further southeast in what is today known as Fars province in Iran.). The Assyrians thereafter used the area to breed, train and trade horses.

According to one Assyrian inscription, the Cimmerians (Gimirru) [biblical gnomes like creatures at Behistun] originally went forth from their homeland of Gamir or Uishdish on the shores of the Black Sea in "the midst of Mannai" around this time. The Cimmerians first appear in the annals in the year 714 BC, when they apparently helped the Assyrians to defeat Urartu.

The Mannaeans are recorded as rebelling against Esarhaddon of Assyria in 676 BC, when they attempted to interrupt the horse trade between Assyria and its colony of Parsuash. The king Ahsheri, who ruled until the 650s BC, continued to enlarge the territory of Mannea, although paying tribute to Assyria. However, Mannea suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of the Assyrians around 660 BC, and subsequently an internal revolt broke out, continuing until Ahsheri's death. Also in the 7th century BC, Mannea was defeated by the advancing Scythians, who had already raided Urartu and been repelled by the Assyrians.

Mitanni Mitanni "This kingdom was known as the Maryannu, Nahrin or Mitanni to the Egyptians, Hurri to the Hittites and Hanigalbat to the Assyrians. All three names were equivalent and interchangeable", asserted Michael C. Astour.

bicicleur
16-07-16, 14:11
F38 lived before the invasion of the Cimmerians and Scythians, who were R1a (Cimmerians are supposed to be the descendants of Srubnaya people)

I see 2 possibilities for the origin of F38.

- descendants of the Mushki who attacked the Assyrians ca 3 ka and probably came from Balkans or Carpathian basin
Mushki would have been ancestral to Phrygians (Greek language) and the speakers of Armenian language

- Yamna people R1b-Z2103 ousted by Sintashta warriors and crossing the Caucasus ca 4 ka


we have another R1b-Z2103 in Armenia, same time period :



Late Bronze Age
Armenia
Kapan [RISE397]
M
1048-855 BC
R1b
R1b1a2a2 (Y4371/Z8128) + downstream +Z2106 > PH4902+ > Y:18249219(A/C)+ CTS9219- on R1b1a2 Project tree (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background)
T1a2
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015); Y-DNA personal communication from author + additional info from Sergey Malyshev (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background)

Alan
16-07-16, 14:45
But @bicicleur we have also Early Bronze Age R1b in Kura Araxes that predates any Indo EUropean movement into that region.

Some bloggers might call all of these "confused Steppe man". I am thinking this is no coincidence. Hurro_Urartaen shows strong cultural similarities to Indo Europeans I have elloborated this quite a few times.

Phrygians were not Greek speakers
Also I am not aware of any Phrygian settlements that far East by 900 BC. However I could be wrong.

Alan
16-07-16, 14:48
I think to find the final answer where these R samples come from we ultimately need to have samples from further east. Not only the very West of the Iranian Plateau but also Centra, Eastern parts of it, as well South_Central Asia.

LeBrok
16-07-16, 16:47
Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?I remember a discussion about 2 years ago here where smart people of Eupedia expected to find R1b all the way around Caspian Sea. You have to stick to the right crowd. ;)

However, are we talking about Iron Age times? Way after IE expansion from Steppe.

berun
16-07-16, 17:15
Good for the expected geographical extension of such clade, but the nucleus was in the south...

And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.

Even the Yamnaya R1b clade were not going to nowhere. Once such culture was erased by R1a there was nothing left from them in other places, and as in Iran, it was overruned by R1a true Indoeuropeans.

Alan
16-07-16, 17:21
Ouch! Another R1b before the Indoeuropeans (Iranians) arrived in the area? where he was not expected yet? And precisely of the same clade than the Yamnayans? and precisely from the same geographic origin than the ancestors of the Yamnayans (Calcholithic Iranians / CHG)? What a great coincidence!... or it's a yellow alarm?

Indeed it's even the same culturual sphere. post Kura_Araxes. Interestingly this Iron Age sample from Mannae has significantly less "Steppe" like admixture than even modern Iranians. While if that was rather "newly" arrived R1b in this region you would expect a higher Steppe signature. Since over time the Steppe should actually have went slightly down.

The authors say the sample differs in that way, that it has more Anatolian/Levant_Neo like ancestry, the same way how the Iran_CHL samples already. So I doubt the R1b is connected to the Levant_Neo though.

As I said since we found already P1(R2, R1a, R1b) in Iran_Neo. R1a, R1b itself can't be far and it's just a matter of time we find it with more sampling.

Alan
16-07-16, 17:22
I remember a discussion about 2 years ago here where smart people of Eupedia expected to find R1b all the way around Caspian Sea. You have to stick to the right crowd. ;)

However, are we talking about Iron Age times? Way after IE expansion from Steppe.

Yep indeed, you will most likerly find more of R1b Northwet/West/Southwest of the Caspian and more R1a around Northeast/East/Southeast.

LeBrok
16-07-16, 17:23
Good for the expected geographical extension of such clade, but the nucleus was in the south...

And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.

Even the Yamnaya R1b clade were not going to nowhere. Once such culture was erased by R1a there was nothing left from them in other places, and as in Iran, it was overruned by R1a true Indoeuropeans.Why don't you write a history book and population genetics, and teach people how it went around. The rest of us will gladly follow the unfolding facts of latest research to understand the past.

Alan
16-07-16, 17:31
tbh I doubt Indo_Iranians had no R1b though. However I did point out the similarities between those Hurro_Urartaens and Indo_europeans. From the Swastika to Teshub the Thunder god which seems to be the origin of the Celtic Taranis, Germanic Thor, Hittite Tarru and Greek Zeus.

LeBrok
16-07-16, 17:31
it's a pitty we don't have 'Levant Neolithic' and 'Iran Mesolithic' in this PCA

https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/early/2016/07/13/science.aaf7943/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1
Are there some symbols missing from the Legend? Symbols from ovals don't have explanation in the Legend of Ancient Samples.

LeBrok
16-07-16, 17:42
Abstract:

We sequenced Early Neolithic genomes from the Zagros region of Iran (eastern Fertile Crescent), where some of the earliest evidence for farming is found, and identify a previously uncharacterized population that is neither ancestral to the first European farmers nor has contributed significantly to the ancestry of modern Europeans. These people are estimated to have separated from Early Neolithic farmers in Anatolia some 46-77,000 years ago and show affinities to modern day Pakistani and Afghan populations, but particularly to Iranian Zoroastrians. We conclude that multiple, genetically differentiated hunter-gatherer populations adopted farming in SW-Asia, that components of pre-Neolithic population structure were preserved as farming spread into neighboring regions, and that the Zagros region was the cradle of eastward expansion.
Am I smart or am I smart, lol. Nice vindication. This was the only thing I questioned in latest Lazaridis paper and I was right. It is really hard to question something in a paper written by scientists of such high caliber, not to make an ass of self, and at the end to be right.
It points to a caution about blindly believing in modeling of ancestral population. This is more of sophisticated guessing than a sure thing. To give some credit to Lazaridis in this regard, they surely mentioned that this was of a very low probability. And it turned out that it was.

So Anatolian Neolithic doesn't contain Iranian Neolithic, in genetic sense not cultural, at least in any substantial amounts. It was also confirmed by Lorente et al, and this paper.

bicicleur
16-07-16, 18:20
And science is like a big mammouth, difficult to take him to change its position: now there are 2 "Yamnayan" R1b among no indoeuropean peoples, one before any steppe expansion, the other before such expansion arrived.


who is the Yamna R1b before steppe expansion?

Tomenable
16-07-16, 18:28
we have another R1b-Z2103 in Armenia, same time period

What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???

Sile
16-07-16, 19:54
There is an Iron Age sample of R1b-Z2103 in this study, from a Mannean burial.

Do we have his autosomal DNA to see if the guy was Steppe-admixed ???

Manneans were Non-IE speakers (as were the Kura-Araxes people, among whom another R1b sample was found previously). If they were subjected to an ever increasing Iranian influence, then we would expect to find the Indo-Iranian marker R1a-Z93:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannaeans#Ethnicity

Kura-Araxes were Hurro-Urartian speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura–Araxes_culture#Ethno-linguistic_makeup

Here is my map of attested Non-IE languages of the Middle East, with Manneans in North-Western Iran:

https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png

https://s30.postimg.org/pmjclmks1/Languages+of+ME.png

Many linguists suggest that Hurrian, Urartian and Mannean languages were related (parts of the same family). This is why the map posted above shows all of them painted with the same colour. Kassite-speakers were likely also related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages#Use

We have R1b from Hurro-Urartian speaking Kura-Araxes, and another R1b from Mannean-speakers.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32264-R1b-M269-L23-and-the-diffusion-of-early-metallurgy

Looking at this linguistic map...........it is slightly in error by leaving out Luwian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language


Using this map, and the luwian, according to the paper, the Hurro and the luwian areas is where farming began before moving into the "fertile crescent " proper.

Sile
16-07-16, 19:57
What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???

where gutian is on your map ..............but really amongst the Lurs people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

Considering their NRY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-Chromosome) variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup) Haplogroup R1b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29) (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni-11) Together with its other clades, the R1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M173_%28Y-DNA%29) group comprises the single most common haplogroup among the Lurs.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni-11)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-RSpencer-12) Haplogroup J2a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_%28Y-DNA%29) (subclades J2a3a-M47, J2a3b-M67, J2a3h-M530, more specifically) is the second most commonly occurring patrilineage in the Lurs and is associated with the diffusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demic_diffusion) of agriculturalists from the Neolithic Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia) c. 8000-4000 BCE.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-RSpencer-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-13)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-14)[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-15) Another haplogroup reaching a frequency above 10% is that of G2a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201_%28Y-DNA%29), with subclade G2a3b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-P303_%28Y-DNA%29) accounting for most of this.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni2-16) Also significant is haplogroup E1b1b1a1b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_%28Y-DNA%29#Sub_Clades_of_E-M78), for which the Lurs display the highest frequency in Iran.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni2-16) Lineages Q1b1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242_%28Y-DNA%29) and Q1a3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M346_%28Y-DNA%29) present at 6%, and T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184_%28Y-DNA%29) at 4%.[16]



They have all the main Euro Ydna groups in one group
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs#cite_note-Grugni2-16)

berun
16-07-16, 22:09
@Lebrok, in fact I like more fiction, and taking as example that of Yamnayan Indoeuropeans, I would need to choose between "The cradle of Indoeuropeans: Atlantis", because who could get ancient DNA from Atlantis to check if it matches the L51+ ? The plot would be that Atlanteans flied from their continent to Western Europe riding sirens... the other plot would be "The Saharan secrets, the Indoeuropean exodus", and as R1b V88 is in the Sahel... why not R1b L51+ was there also? then after the dissication of the Sahara the two brother clades split, one going to the south, the other to the north, to W. Europe... no archaeological proofs for that? well, Yamnayans also are not suppling proofs so I think the scientific standards will be keept good yet, and WTF, the first Bell Beakers were more near to Africa than to the steppe, even more credible...

@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.

LeBrok
16-07-16, 22:25
@Lebrok, in fact I like more fiction, and taking as example that of Yamnayan Indoeuropeans, I would need to choose between "The cradle of Indoeuropeans: Atlantis", because who could get ancient DNA from Atlantis to check if it matches the L51+ ? The plot would be that Atlanteans flied from their continent to Western Europe riding sirens... the other plot would be "The Saharan secrets, the Indoeuropean exodus", and as R1b V88 is in the Sahel... why not R1b L51+ was there also? then after the dissication of the Sahara the two brother clades split, one going to the south, the other to the north, to W. Europe... no archaeological proofs for that? well, Yamnayans also are not suppling proofs so I think the scientific standards will be keept good yet, and WTF, the first Bell Beakers were more near to Africa than to the steppe, even more credible...

@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.It pretty much says it all. I rest my case.

bicicleur
16-07-16, 22:35
But @bicicleur we have also Early Bronze Age R1b in Kura Araxes that predates any Indo EUropean movement into that region.

Some bloggers might call all of these "confused Steppe man". I am thinking this is no coincidence. Hurro_Urartaen shows strong cultural similarities to Indo Europeans I have elloborated this quite a few times.

Phrygians were not Greek speakers
Also I am not aware of any Phrygian settlements that far East by 900 BC. However I could be wrong.

well not Greek but similar

Inscriptions found at Gordium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordium) make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European) language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), and clearly not belonging to the family ofAnatolian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.

The Eastern Muski appear to have moved into Hatti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_empire) in the 12th century BC, completing the downfall of the collapsing Hittite state, along with various Sea Peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples). They established themselves in a post-Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Hittite) kingdom in Cappadocia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocia).
Whether they moved into the core Hittite areas from the east or west has been a matter of some discussion by historians. Some speculate that they may have originally occupied a territory in the area of Urartu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu); alternatively, ancient accounts suggest that they first arrived from a homeland in the west (as part of the Armeno-Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeno-Phrygian) migration), from the region of Troy, or even from as far as Macedonia, as the Bryges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges).
Together with the Hurrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians) and Kaskas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskas), they invaded the Assyrian provinces of Alzi and Puruhuzzi in about 1160 BC, but they were pushed back and defeated, along with the Kaskas, byTiglath-Pileser I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglath-Pileser_I) in 1115 BC, who until 1110 BC advanced as far as Milid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milid).


The apparent similarity of the Phrygian language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) to Greek and its dissimilarity with the Anatolian languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages) spoken by most of their neighbors is also taken as support for a European origin of the Phrygians. Phrygian continued to be spoken until sixth century AD, though its distinctive alphabet was lost earlier than those of most Anatolian cultures.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-Barbara_Levick.27s-1)
Some scholars have theorized that such a migration could have occurred more recently than classical sources suggest, and have sought to fit the Phrygian arrival into a narrative explaining the downfall of the Hittite Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire) and the end of the high Bronze Age in Anatolia.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia#cite_note-8) According to this "recent migration" theory, the Phrygians invaded just before or after the collapse of the Hittite Empire at the beginning of the 12th century BC, filling the political vacuum in central-western Anatolia, and may have been counted among the "Sea Peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples)" that Egyptian records credit with bringing about the Hittite collapse. The so-called Handmade Knobbed Ware found in Western Anatolia during this period has been tentatively identified as an import connected to this invasion.

Urartu was destroyed in either 590 BC[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu#cite_note-33) or 585 BC.[34] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu#cite_note-34) By the late 6th century, Urartu had certainly been replaced by Armenia.[35] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu#cite_note-35)

Little is known of what happened to the region of Urartu under the foreign rule following its fall. The most widely accepted theory is that settlers related to Phrygians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians), or more specifically tribes speaking a Proto-Armenian language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Armenian_language) conventionally named Armeno-Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeno-Phrygian) who had already settled in the western parts of the region prior to the establishment of Urartu,[36] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu#cite_note-36) had become the ruling elite under the Median Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_Empire), followed by the Achaemenid Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire).[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urartu#cite_note-37) These Armeno-Phrygians would have mingled with the disparate peoples of Urartu, resulting a fusion of languages and cultures.

as for R1b in Kura Araxes I don't think it was M-269 or M-73, so it was not IE

I've always believed R1b and R1a were along the southern Caspian Sea 15 ka.
But allready by the youngest dryas some tribes moved north of the Caucasus, long before PIE was spoken.
Iron Age R1b-Z2013 is a backmigration of Yamna R1b from the steppe to Anatolia, as Yamna people were ousted by Sintashta warriors.

bicicleur
16-07-16, 22:41
@bicicleur, the first R1b "Yamnayan" is the Z2016+ found in Armenia of the Kura-Araxes culture (maybe proto-Hurrian), the second one would be the Manean recently provided (Manean possibly related to Hurro-Urartian), and also it seems that it could be added the proto-Urartian of Kapan, in Armenia, which has a date similar to the Tepe Hasanlu DNA and it's relatively quite near of him. I suppose that a good Yamnayist would deal with them thinking that they were IE herders wandering there looking for a lost sheep.

the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103

bicicleur
16-07-16, 22:42
What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???

LBA Armenia, I don't find any details

Alan
16-07-16, 23:14
the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103

Neither were any of the late Neolithic Samara culture samples, but somehow hardcore Steppists insist that the Z2103 came from there. We now have R1bs all around the Caspian (as I and some other predicted) but non of them Z2103 prior to attested Indo European movement. However we have at least some Z2103 in Bronze Age Transcaucasus with actually no sign of Steppic infux (if any it must be very ancient because it doesn't exceed that found in the CHG, contrary is slightly weaker somehow).

Maykop and BMAC samples are still missing. We have R1b in Kura Araxes. R1b in Yamnaya. Who bets we will find R1b in Maykop?

Tomenable
17-07-16, 00:33
Ancient Y-DNA samples from Armenia and from Iran known so far:

Armenia (3 x R1b):

I1407 - 4350-3700 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M76
I1634 - 4330-3060 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M76
I1632 - 4230-4000 BC (Areni-1) - L1a-M27
I1635 - 2619-2465 BC (Kalavan) - R1b1a1b-CTS3187
RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788
RISE413 - 1906-1698 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - R1b1a2-M269 (?)
RISE423 - 1402-1211 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L795
RISE408 - 1209-1009 BC (Norabak) - J2b2a-Z590
RISE397 - 1048-855 BC (Kapan) - R1b1a2a2-Z2103

Iran (1 x R1b):

I1293 - 9100-8600 BC (Huto Cave) - J2a-CTS1085
AH2 - 8205-7756 BC - (Tepe Abdul Hosein) - J2b-M12*
I1949 - 8000-7700 BC (Ganj Dareh) - R2-M479
I1945 - 8000-7700 BC (Ganj Dareh) - R2a-Y3399
WC1 - 7455-7082 BC (Wezmeh Cave) - G2b-Z8015
I1671 - 5850-5650 BC (Seh Gabi) - G2a1a-FGC602
I1662 - 4850-3800 BC (Seh Gabi) - J2a2-PF5008
I1674 - 4850-3800 BC (Seh Gabi) - G1a1b-GG372
F38 - 971-832 BC (Hasanlu IVb) - R1b1a2a2-Z2103

bicicleur
17-07-16, 12:08
more Y DNA :

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-ah2/

The calls show that AH2 belonged to Y haplogroup J2b-M12*.

bicicleur
17-07-16, 12:14
What culture did that R1b from Kapan belong to ???

I only have the location, south-Armenia, some 200 km NNW of Tepe Hasanlu as the crow flies

Tomenable
17-07-16, 13:23
And yet one more:

RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788

Tomenable
17-07-16, 13:26
Samples from Nerquin Getashen = Trialeti culture or Sevan-Uzerlik culture.

bicicleur
17-07-16, 13:51
Ancient Y-DNA samples from Armenia and from Iran known so far:

Armenia (3 x R1b):


RISE413 - 1906-1698 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - R1b1a2-M269 (?)


I have R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)



Middle Bronze Age
Armenia
Nerquin Getashen [RISE413]
M
1906-1698 BC
R1b
R1b1 (M415/PF6251+ SK2063/FGC21034/V2197-, Y5586- FGC3890/Y11839-)
T2c1f
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015); Y-DNA pers. comm. from author + additional info from Felix Emmanuel and Vladimir Tagankin

bicicleur
17-07-16, 13:56
Samples from Nerquin Getashen = Trialeti culture or Sevan-Uzerlik culture.

RISE413 416 and 423 were south of Lake Sevan in Armenia, which is not Trialeti region

but there were similarities

Trialeti-Vanadzor painted monochrome and polychrome pottery is very similar to that in the other areas of the Near East. In particular, similar ceramics is known as the Urmia ware (named after Lake Urmia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Urmia) in Iran). Also, similar pottery was produced by the Uzarlik culture, and the Karmirberd-Sevan culture.

bicicleur
17-07-16, 14:08
Ancient Y-DNA samples from Armenia and from Iran known so far:

Armenia

RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788



I don't have this info. Where did you get it?



Middle Bronze Age
Armenia
Nerquin Getashen [RISE416]
M
1943-1445 BC




K1a17a
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015)

bicicleur
17-07-16, 14:13
And yet one more:

RISE416 - 1943-1445 BC (Nerquin Getashen) - E1b1b1b2a1a-L788

where did you get this info? I don't have it

Tomenable
17-07-16, 15:21
Here:

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,9129.msg343925.html#msg343925


Semargl confirms that RISE416 MLBA Armenia is E-M84 (xY14891)

Tomenable
17-07-16, 15:31
^^^ Check here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.molgen.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopi c%2C9129.msg343925.html%23msg343925

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7877-Broushaki-et-al-quot-Early-Neolithic-genomes-from-the-eastern-Fertile-Crescent-quot&p=171263&viewfull=1#post171263


Semargl confirms that RISE416 MLBA Armenia is E-M84 (xY14891)

bicicleur
17-07-16, 15:44
^^^ Check here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.molgen.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopi c%2C9129.msg343925.html%23msg343925

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7877-Broushaki-et-al-quot-Early-Neolithic-genomes-from-the-eastern-Fertile-Crescent-quot&p=171263&viewfull=1#post171263

your computer is stuttering a bit

but thanks

bicicleur
17-07-16, 15:49
^^^ Check here:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.molgen.org%2Findex.php%2Ftopi c%2C9129.msg343925.html%23msg343925

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7877-Broushaki-et-al-quot-Early-Neolithic-genomes-from-the-eastern-Fertile-Crescent-quot&p=171263&viewfull=1#post171263


mistake of mine

berun
17-07-16, 19:41
the Armenian Kura-Araxes R1b was not Z2016, the LBA Armenian was R1b-Z2103

OK, now after finetuning the results would be: Kura-Araxes R1b1a... who would be the "father" of MBA Armenian (Hurrian) R1b1a2, and his clade appears in a Yamnayan (RISE546) and a Poltavkian (SVP11); then a LBA Armenian was R1b1a2a2 (the grandson), but his subclade is the most common Yamnayan clade... To that it is possible to add that Armenians and Lurs have R1b related clades so that the ancient DNA is not coming from "wandering herders" but genetists are finding real people, and even a happy local Hg family.

Then we need to realize that a bunch of Yamnayans peopled all Western Europe with the Western R1b not found in Yamna, half Asia with the Asian R1a not found in Yamna, and Transcaucasia precisely with the known R1b clades they had... but by coincidence we know that Yamnayans received a Transcaucasian migration before any kurgan or horse expansion... so my astonishment is much or less like that of the Spanish President....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9S2uZrepJZc/TDt2JLr0VqI/AAAAAAAAAB4/aN7SZGCp0u0/s1600/rajoy.png

Tomenable
17-07-16, 22:06
Some linguists noticed similarities between Hurro-Urartian and Basque languages.

This suggested language family is sometimes called "Vasco-Caucasian":

http://vasco-caucasian.blogspot.com/2015/06/basque-olha-forge-foundry.html

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28131


The other argument is provided by the Basque language. Now, it is
the single non Indo-European language not only of Spain, but of
Western Europe. When the Pozo Moro tower was built, more than
2500 years ago, it might have been in the neighbourhood of the
Iberian and the Contestanian languages, exchanging vocabulary,
morphological and syntactic patterns with them. The presence of
Hurrian people in Contestania would perfectly explain why modern
Basque still uses words with an unmistakable Assyrian, Egyptian,
Hebrew or Sumerian origin, otherwise not justified at all.
Furthermore, in addition to these loan words, well attested by
the linguists studying the Basque language, it seems that there
could be genuine Hurrian loans in the Basque language.=20

These Hurrian-Basque words, which are scarce but highly
significant, tend to concentrate in some linguistic areas
(religion, social organization) and to follow regular phonetic
patterns when transferred. Good examples may be the words for
"God" (Hurrian eni > Basque jainkoa, but also jin, in) or "Lord"
(Hurrian ewri > Basque Jaun, Jaur- in compounds), which seem to
change initial e- to ya- regularly . There are even loan words
which, until now, were thought to be exclusive of the Hurrian-
Mittanian linguistic framework. This is the case of number 1,
aika, still used by modern Basque when forming the name of number
11, which is "amaika" and not "ama-bat" as expectable. A more
exhaustive study of these possible loans, which is far beyond the
scope of this message, is a task to be carried out by the Basque
scholars.

All these facts (with the possible exception of the loans to the
Basque language), are known and almost unanimously admitted by
the scholars and researchers (a document with full references to
the relevant books and articles is available for anyone
interested). What I am now proposing is "whether they may be
jointly interpreted in the sense of supporting the idea of the
presence of Hurrians in south-eastern Spain from the eighth
century BC onwards".

Now that we know that Hurro-Urartians could be R1b, we also have a genetic link.

berun
18-07-16, 08:28
No Hurrian archaeological find is known for Spain, a logical thing taking into account their old geographic area and that by such dates they were time ago passed. For the R1b aspect even it could not explain matters in all Europe, the case is yet between mesolithics, neolithic herders or indoeuropeans. Allways is better to rely on works peer reviewed than in forumers or bloggers...

Precisely I remember now a Dutch work about the relation of Hurrian/Urartian with Chechen and also Etruscan quite suggestive, also in an historical sense by the Lemnian case and the supposed Anatolian origin of Etruscans.

bicicleur
18-07-16, 09:21
OK, now after finetuning the results would be: Kura-Araxes R1b1a... who would be the "father" of MBA Armenian (Hurrian) R1b1a2, and his clade appears in a Yamnayan (RISE546) and a Poltavkian (SVP11); then a LBA Armenian was R1b1a2a2 (the grandson), but his subclade is the most common Yamnayan clade... To that it is possible to add that Armenians and Lurs have R1b related clades so that the ancient DNA is not coming from "wandering herders" but genetists are finding real people, and even a happy local Hg family.

Then we need to realize that a bunch of Yamnayans peopled all Western Europe with the Western R1b not found in Yamna, half Asia with the Asian R1a not found in Yamna, and Transcaucasia precisely with the known R1b clades they had... but by coincidence we know that Yamnayans received a Transcaucasian migration before any kurgan or horse expansion... so my astonishment is much or less like that of the Spanish President....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9S2uZrepJZc/TDt2JLr0VqI/AAAAAAAAAB4/aN7SZGCp0u0/s1600/rajoy.png

do you know the connection between Kura-Araxes and Hurrians?
do you know many different people were gathered in Uratru ruled by Hurrians?
do you think the whole Pontic steppe had the same DNA as the Samarra and Kalmykia?

I put forward 2 theories
but you seem to know a lot more than me

berun
18-07-16, 15:45
In Ancient Turkey, page 184-186: "During the Early Bronze Age II A (2700-2600 BC), the Syro-Mesopotamian influence at Norsuntepe (Levels 24-21) [in the Tigris bend] started to wane, with a noticeable rise in Trans-Caucasian black burnished (Kura-Araxes) cermics..." ... "Wattle and daub houses are the norm from Level 20 through 14 at Norsuntepe (Early Bronze Age IIB) [2600-2500 BC]. They have typical features - rounded corners, benches along the walls, and eye-catching, horned hearth in the centre- well known from inner Georgia, in Trans-Caucasus." ... "The Upper Euphrates is also the home of a distinctive painted pottery tradition restricted to sites in the Keban (Elazig region) and Karakaya (Malatya region). Althought it is associated with hand-made Kura-Araxes pottery, and indeed probably derives from that tradition..." Such pottery is related to that found in the Khabur valley. The first documented Hurrian passages are from 2300 BC and continue till 1300 BC pointing to such regions.

Hurrians and Urarteans were not historicaly in contact... but taking the linguistic area of Hurrian, Urartean and NE Caucasian (with Caucasian Albanian), it fits quite well the area of the Kura-Araxes culture; and why I would deny that the first attested languages in such areas were not the ancestral ones? If you know other possible languages spoken there you may tell us.

Can you provide the other steppe Y-DNA or I must imagine which other Y-DNA they had? I must suppose that science might work imagining possibilities instead to work with facts?

Frankly I would like to discuss from know facts instead than from possible facts, otherwise I come back to the Atlantis plot...
;)

bicicleur
18-07-16, 16:46
In Ancient Turkey, page 184-186: "During the Early Bronze Age II A (2700-2600 BC), the Syro-Mesopotamian influence at Norsuntepe (Levels 24-21) [in the Tigris bend] started to wane, with a noticeable rise in Trans-Caucasian black burnished (Kura-Araxes) cermics..." ... "Wattle and daub houses are the norm from Level 20 through 14 at Norsuntepe (Early Bronze Age IIB) [2600-2500 BC]. They have typical features - rounded corners, benches along the walls, and eye-catching, horned hearth in the centre- well known from inner Georgia, in Trans-Caucasus." ... "The Upper Euphrates is also the home of a distinctive painted pottery tradition restricted to sites in the Keban (Elazig region) and Karakaya (Malatya region). Althought it is associated with hand-made Kura-Araxes pottery, and indeed probably derives from that tradition..." Such pottery is related to that found in the Khabur valley. The first documented Hurrian passages are from 2300 BC and continue till 1300 BC pointing to such regions.

Hurrians and Urarteans were not historicaly in contact... but taking the linguistic area of Hurrian, Urartean and NE Caucasian (with Caucasian Albanian), it fits quite well the area of the Kura-Araxes culture; and why I would deny that the first attested languages in such areas were not the ancestral ones? If you know other possible languages spoken there you may tell us.

Can you provide the other steppe Y-DNA or I must imagine which other Y-DNA they had? I must suppose that science might work imagining possibilities instead to work with facts?

Frankly I would like to discuss from know facts instead than from possible facts, otherwise I come back to the Atlantis plot...
;)

in your post n°47 you make things so complicated while it is not

let me put it like this :
the first IE people were R1b-M269 and R1b-M473 ca 6.5 ka on the Pontic steppe, 400 years before the TMRCA of R1b-Z2103
R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

David Anthony wrote this scenario in 2007. All details are confirmed by anciant DNA afterwards.
There is no anciant DNA found yet which counterdicts this scenario.

Which of course does not mean it is the only possible scenario.
I think it is still the most parsimonious explanation.

Alan
18-07-16, 17:54
Now something slightly different. Hasn't any of you noticed that NON of the Iron Age and the one Safavid era Iranic samples turned out as significantly more EHG shifted? Contrary the Iron Age samples even turned out with less Steppe like shift than modern once(Kurds, Persians etc).

Which brings us back to the question (conclusion) could the guys who brought Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian have been realy significantly EHG shifted? Obviously not. And I am being arguing for this over years. We can't take Srubnaya or Sintashta as refference since obviously these guys didn't came from there. Either the Kura Araxes or Yaz culture is the source.

bicicleur
18-07-16, 18:43
Now something slightly different. Hasn't any of you noticed that NON of the Iron Age and the one Safavid era Iranic samples turned out as significantly more EHG shifted? Contrary the Iron Age samples even turned out with less Steppe like shift than modern once(Kurds, Persians etc).

Which brings us back to the question (conclusion) could the guys who brought Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian have been realy significantly EHG shifted? Obviously not. And I am being arguing for this over years. We can't take Srubnaya or Sintashta as refference since obviously these guys didn't came from there. Either the Kura Araxes or Yaz culture is the source.

do we have Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian iron age samples?
and I don't think Mitanni were IE, only their horse trainers were
Median/Parthian/Persian came from Central Asia, not from across the Caucasus

Alan
18-07-16, 20:20
do we have Mitanni/Median/Parthian and Persian iron age samples?
and I don't think Mitanni were IE, only their horse trainers were
Median/Parthian/Persian came from Central Asia, not from across the Caucasus

We have Safavid era (post Sassanid) and Iron Age (little pre Mede and Persian era) samples. Both look as much or less Steppe shifted. I doubt that what was inbetween could have been so much Steppe shifted than.

We have absolutely no idea what Mitanni were, therefore people are widely speculating. I am going by historic refferences and according to those the Mitanni were pretty much absorbed or predecessors of the Medes. Only their Horse trainers being Indo European makes absolutely no sense. You wouldn't pay tribute to the Gods of some Horse trainers if an substantial part of the population (at least 25%) wasn't Indo_Iranian either. Just because a certain language is spoken among Mitanni, doesn't mean there wasn't a substantial population of people with a different language.

berun
18-07-16, 22:26
in your post n°47 you make things so complicated while it is not

let me put it like this :
the first IE people were R1b-M269 and R1b-M473 ca 6.5 ka on the Pontic steppe, 400 years before the TMRCA of R1b-Z2103
R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

David Anthony wrote this scenario in 2007. All details are confirmed by anciant DNA afterwards.
There is no anciant DNA found yet which counterdicts this scenario.

Which of course does not mean it is the only possible scenario.
I think it is still the most parsimonious explanation.

No, the most parsimonious scenario is like that:

R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they "adopted" IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

If you need desperately the Yamnayans is to try to explain the Western R1b, but ailas their R1b clades were Trans-Caucasian, and all we know now that Yamnayans had a 50% Trans-Caucasian DNA: so Yamnayans were a dead end overan by IE R1a, that is the parsimonous explanation now.

bicicleur
19-07-16, 00:25
We have Safavid era (post Sassanid) and Iron Age (little pre Mede and Persian era) samples. Both look as much or less Steppe shifted. I doubt that what was inbetween could have been so much Steppe shifted than.

We have absolutely no idea what Mitanni were, therefore people are widely speculating. I am going by historic refferences and according to those the Mitanni were pretty much absorbed or predecessors of the Medes. Only their Horse trainers being Indo European makes absolutely no sense. You wouldn't pay tribute to the Gods of some Horse trainers if an substantial part of the population (at least 25%) wasn't Indo_Iranian either. Just because a certain language is spoken among Mitanni, doesn't mean there wasn't a substantial population of people with a different language.

Mitanni were Hurrite
but there is the text of Kikkuli the horse trainer who introduced Indic loanwords into Mitanni language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

Mitanni had nothing to do with Medes origin

bicicleur
19-07-16, 00:29
No, the most parsimonious scenario is like that:

R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they "adopted" IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka
they were the corded ware people who expanded northwards and the Sintashta people who came to the Belaya river area and from there settled in Arkaim-Sintashta area ca 4.2 ka
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe
other Sintashta people were the Indo-Iranians

If you need desperately the Yamnayans is to try to explain the Western R1b, but ailas their R1b clades were Trans-Caucasian, and all we know now that Yamnayans had a 50% Trans-Caucasian DNA: so Yamnayans were a dead end overan by IE R1a, that is the parsimonous explanation now.



Bell Beaker
Germany
Kromsdorf [grave 5]
M
2600-2500 BC
R1b1b2
M343, M269, (x S21/U106)
I1a1
Lee 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Lee2012); Oliveiri 2013.






Bell Beaker
Germany
Quedlinburg [I0805/QLB 26]
M
2467-2142 BC
R1b1a2
PF6430, PF6482, PF6500, PF6509
H1
Mathieson 2015

I0805 Germany Bell Beaker R1b1a2a1a-L151 calls (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0805/)





Bronze Age
Germany
Untermeitingen [RISE471]
M


R1b1a2a1a
P310
J1c1b
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015); Mathieson 2015













Battle Axe/ Nordic LN
Sweden
Lilla Beddinge 56 [RISE98]
M
2275-2032 BC
R1b1a2a1a1
M405/S21/U106
K1b1a1
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015); Mathieson 2015



I can give you many more examples of R1b-M269 in Europe.
Please explain.

The archeological evidence of the whole scenario, including expansions from the steppe into Europe prior to Sintashta expansion is explained in this book:

https://books.google.be/books/about/The_Horse_the_Wheel_and_Language.html?id=nLIufwC4s zwC&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

I can recommend you this book.

Tomenable
19-07-16, 00:57
the Sintashta people spread into Srubnaya area ousting R1b from the steppe

Srubnaya were also R1a. As well as Potapovka and Andronovo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potapovka_culture#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Genetics_and_physical_anthropolo gy

bicicleur
19-07-16, 14:47
Srubnaya were also R1a. As well as Potapovka and Andronovo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potapovka_culture#Genetics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture#Genetics_and_physical_anthropolo gy

that is what I meant

R1b was replaced by R1a on the Pontic steppe


furthermore Medes/Persians and Parni were descendants of Andronovo people, just like Scyths

johen
19-07-16, 19:17
that is what I meant

R1b was replaced by R1a on the Pontic steppe


furthermore Medes/Persians and Parni were descendants of Andronovo people, just like Scyths

Does Medea have R1a-z93?
Do you think that R1a1a start from Iran? or Did scythian bring it in Iran?

berun
19-07-16, 21:48
@bicicleur, the examples provided of R1b are mainly of BB yes? and that of Sweden is after the BB presence in the area yes? do you know that the BB culture had a western origin? how I need to accept that such R1b was from the east? and even worse when the previous culture CW was R1a which kindly indicates the exogenous nature of these R1b... and such R1b clades are not those found in the steppes of the third millennium, because as already explained such clades clearly pinpoint to a Trans-Caucasian origin and are quite different from those of Western Europe. What is more, autosomal DNA of the CW is not Yamnayan (the genetists explained that it was similar to Yamnaya but I think that they might have writen better something like "you archaeologists are wrong so start to dig up more and better before to write anything"). By the way we have a neolithic herder R1b in the Pyrenees and a mesolithic HG R1b in the Alps, maybe they have something to say about such German R1b, don't forget them...

bicicleur
19-07-16, 22:42
@bicicleur, the examples provided of R1b are mainly of BB yes? and that of Sweden is after the BB presence in the area yes? do you know that the BB culture had a western origin? how I need to accept that such R1b was from the east? and even worse when the previous culture CW was R1a which kindly indicates the exogenous nature of these R1b... and such R1b clades are not those found in the steppes of the third millennium, because as already explained such clades clearly pinpoint to a Trans-Caucasian origin and are quite different from those of Western Europe. What is more, autosomal DNA of the CW is not Yamnayan (the genetists explained that it was similar to Yamnaya but I think that they might have writen better something like "you archaeologists are wrong so start to dig up more and better before to write anything"). By the way we have a neolithic herder R1b in the Pyrenees and a mesolithic HG R1b in the Alps, maybe they have something to say about such German R1b, don't forget them...

indeed, all earliest confirmed R1b-M269 in Europe is BB or BB-derived and all anciant BB DNA is R1b-M269 or R1b without M269 tested
no R1b-M269 before BB was found in Europe
so how can you claim a western origin of BB then?

this is the oldest confirmed European R1b-M269 I know which is not BB :



Gáta/Wieslburg
Hungary
M85 Enese elkerül? 02. Kóny, Proletár-d?l? II [KON 6]


1770-1760 BC
R1b1a2
M269
U5b1
Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Szecsenyi-Nagy2015)




the spread of R1b-M269 in Europe started in an area where there was no R1a
it looks like most R1b-M269 in Europe was spread through BB, but not all

what is the autosomal make-up of CW?
can you tell me? what source do you have?

bicicleur
19-07-16, 22:50
Does Medea have R1a-z93?
most likely

Do you think that R1a1a start from Iran? or Did scythian bring it in Iran?
R1a1a is much older than Scythian, and I think it started in NW Iran.
But I would guess R1a1a1 started on the Pontic steppe or north of it.
Scyths were all R1a-Z93 (R1a1a1b2).

Alan
20-07-16, 05:28
Mitanni were Hurrite

Mitanni main language was Hurrite but what the people were is unknown. There are Indo_Iranic deitis being mentioned in a treaty between Mitanni and the Hittites such as Mithra, Varna, Nasatya and Indra. Obviously you wouldn't do this because of a few Horse trainers.


but there is the text of Kikkuli the horse trainer who introduced Indic loanwords into Mitanni language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikkuli

Mitanni did not introduced "Indic" loanwords. Indic is a Hindu language a subbranch of Indo_Aryan that evolved in India. Mitanni didn't came from India. As I said it is mere speculation if the Mitanni were even Indo_Aryan or basically undivided archaic Indo_Iranian. The suggestion of Indo_Aryan is merely based on the fact that the Indo_Iranian words among Mitanni are so archaic and the deities are nowadays more common in India. But we actually know from linguistic point of view, that Indo_aryan itself is more archaic than Iranic. Therefore if we are dealing with an undivided Indo_Iranian branch linguistically seen it is common sense that it will be closer to Indo_aryan since Indo_Aryan at far less loudshifts than Iranic.
Just few years ago everyone was so convinced that Sintashta is Proto_Indo_Iranian. Turns out genetically (as well even linguistically) Srubna, Yaz and likely Kura_Araxes makes even more sense, and SIntashta seems like a dead end of some early Indo_Iranian culture.

Mitanni had nothing to do with Medes origin

I am not basing my Mitanni=Medes connection on personal speculation but historical facts and accounts. Such as Persian as well Greek, such as Heroduts which simply connect the Mitanni, Matiene and Medes as the same people or at least related of same stock.

berun
20-07-16, 08:45
@bicicleur, the Hungarian sample is very recent, post-BB, and I can't use it. The western origin for the Y-DNA in BB is supported by mtDNA, autosomal and archaeological facts, not ideas.

For the CW case, in the Haak paper they say


We caution that the sampled Yamnaya individuals from Samara might not be directly ancestral to Corded Ware individuals from Germany. It is possible that a more western Yamnaya population, or an earlier (pre-Yamnaya) steppe population may have migrated into central Europe, and future work may uncover more missing links in the chain of transmission of steppe ancestry.

Everything is left on the air with that; and what is more good is that if steppe herders were as much 100000 (counting women and kids), their expansion was from a even little bunch... by that I would prefer to read about the Mayan and Egyptian piramids made by Atlantis survivors... at least is more entertaining.

bicicleur
20-07-16, 09:43
@bicicleur, the Hungarian sample is very recent, post-BB, and I can't use it. The western origin for the Y-DNA in BB is supported by mtDNA, autosomal and archaeological facts, not ideas.

For the CW case, in the Haak paper they say



Everything is left on the air with that; and what is more good is that if steppe herders were as much 100000 (counting women and kids), their expansion was from a even little bunch... by that I would prefer to read about the Mayan and Egyptian piramids made by Atlantis survivors... at least is more entertaining.

you're right, I didn't express myself clear
BB culture started in Portugal
what I meant is that the R1b-M269 people who spread BB couldn't have been indogenous European

what the Haak paper says fits with what I told :

'R1a-M417 lived in the forest-steppe area north of the Pontic steppe, they adopted IE language and IE herding economy ca 5 ka'

these R1a were not the same as the R1b Pontic steppe people
that is also what David Anthony suggested in his book

and yes it started with a small population, at least on the male side
all CW and Sintashta and Andronovo consisted of just 2-3 subclades of R1a-M417

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif

Arame
20-07-16, 09:59
Guys genetiker has made an admixture run and there are good f3 stats in the supplements


This Hasanlu F38 can be remnant of IA Mushki expansion. The absence of strong Levantine affinities means he was not from Armenia MLBA and certainly not places close to Levant. Most probably from North East Anatolia.

This is top5 of f3 stat
Georgian
Abkhazian
Armenian
Albanian
Iran_Zoroastrian

bicicleur
20-07-16, 11:27
Guys genetiker has made an admixture run and there are good f3 stats in the supplements


This Hasanlu F38 can be remnant of IA Mushki expansion. The absence of strong Levantine affinities means he was not from Armenia MLBA and certainly not places close to Levant. Most probably from North East Anatolia.

This is top5 of f3 stat
Georgian
Abkhazian
Armenian
Albanian
Iran_Zoroastrian

comparison with present population has little sense
and if so, I could easily relate them to Mushki coming from Balkan or Carpath Basin
the expansion went as far as Georgia and NW Iran
and the Albanians were related with those who stayed in Balkan or Carpath Basin

berun
20-07-16, 13:15
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC

bicicleur
20-07-16, 14:02
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC

we have a lot of European Neolithic farmers Y-DNA
2/3 are G2a2a, then there is I, C1a2, H2 and T, few E and no R
some R1b appears in pre-beaker Iberian chalcolithic, but none of them are confirmed R1b-M269 yet
the Iberian chalcolithic existed 3-400 years before BB

apart from BB, Vucedol culture was probably also R1b-M269, mixed with I

it looks like the spread of IE language in western Europe, in particular Celtic was linked with R1b-M269
the spread of Celtic is a complicated matter though as much of it is sweeped out

bicicleur
20-07-16, 14:06
about the Mushki, in their attack on the Assyrians, they were allies with Hurrians
I know of 2 Hurrian kingdoms : Mitanni and Urartu
Urartu was likely a multi-ethnic state with a Hurrian ruling dynasty till an Armenian dynasty took over
but the whole history remains very unclear

Alan
20-07-16, 14:17
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC

Indeed Iran_Neo was devoid of Levantine_Neo. Since there are still today populations that are pretty much isolated Iran_Neo like. We can expect that by Iron Age also there were some isolated Iran_Neo like groups. The Mushki connection is mere speculation also. No one knows if this connection is true or not.

F38 looks simply like a not Steppe shifted Kurdish sample. On the PCA it pretty much plots there were Kurds would plot.

berun
20-07-16, 19:54
@bicicleur, that is the case, we have a lot of farmer Y DNA but very few of neolithic herders, and when we have, like that of the Trocs, relation of Hg change dramaticaly. For the Celtic spread I follow archaeologists and linguists linking it to the Urnfield / Hallstadt / Laténe complex... which explain satisfactory the expansion of such languages: as for IE it's not necessary Yamna, for Celtic is not necessary BB.

Sile
20-07-16, 19:55
Western R1b could be perfectly exogenous if they came along neolithic farmers; I agree with the R1a expansion, which in fact don't need Yamnayans at all. What is very doubtful is that the Yamnayans language was IE, that is a theory that is making all this issue more dumb and provoking a lot of mistakes to linguists and genetists. If i would be guided only by Y DNA, their language would be a northerner expansion of Hurrian related languages extinguished by the true IE expansion.

@arame, I think that Iran_Neolithic also were devoid of levantine component. By the way Mushkis (Phrygians) were in Central Anatolia and we don't know any attack so eastern before 800 BC

Iran_Neolithic came from South-Asia and especially dravidian area

Sile
20-07-16, 19:59
we have a lot of European Neolithic farmers Y-DNA
2/3 are G2a2a, then there is I, C1a2, H2 and T, few E and no R
some R1b appears in pre-beaker Iberian chalcolithic, but none of them are confirmed R1b-M269 yet
the Iberian chalcolithic existed 3-400 years before BB

apart from BB, Vucedol culture was probably also R1b-M269, mixed with I

it looks like the spread of IE language in western Europe, in particular Celtic was linked with R1b-M269
the spread of Celtic is a complicated matter though as much of it is sweeped out

Vucedol culture is noted as proto-illyrian culture beginning in pannonia ( modern Hungaria ), it has very little R1b that I can see , but has a lot of I2

berun
21-07-16, 17:14
Iran_Neolithic can't came from South-Asia if the first dates about 8000 BC and the second one by about 5000 BC, it is more the contrary. For Vucedol I don't know well Balkan cultures but which cultural traits prove their Illyrianism or IE ? I can't detect.

bicicleur
21-07-16, 17:22
Vucedol culture is noted as proto-illyrian culture beginning in pannonia ( modern Hungaria ), it has very little R1b that I can see , but has a lot of I2

I believe the Carpathian Basin was a melting pot :

Starcevo-Köros was a melting pot between mainly G2a2 farmers and I2 HG, resulting in Vinca culture.

Vucedol was a melting pot between R1b steppe people and I2 natives.




Vucedol
Hungary
Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.8]


2860-2620 BC
R1b
M343+
T2b23
Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Szecsenyi-Nagy2015)


Vucedol
Hungary
Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10]


2860-2620 BC
I2a2a
M223+
H5
Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Szecsenyi-Nagy2015)

bicicleur
21-07-16, 17:37
@bicicleur, that is the case, we have a lot of farmer Y DNA but very few of neolithic herders, and when we have, like that of the Trocs, relation of Hg change dramaticaly. For the Celtic spread I follow archaeologists and linguists linking it to the Urnfield / Hallstadt / Laténe complex... which explain satisfactory the expansion of such languages: as for IE it's not necessary Yamna, for Celtic is not necessary BB.

indeed IMO Els Trocs is not related to Cardial/Impressed Ware neolithic
they were herders and maybe the came from Africa and crossed the Gibraltar strait

there was a 2nd wave of neolithic invasion in Europe, maybe from SW Asia, maybe from the Carpathian Basin
the brought herding and oxens as draught animals
but the Y-DNA of megalithic sites, Sopot and TRB is not much different from the early neolithic European Y-DNA

as for the spread of Celtic there are a few questions :



Early Bronze
Northern Ireland
Glebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin1]
M
2026–1885 BC
R1b1a2a1a2c1g
L21/M529/S145 > DF13/S521 > DF21/S192
U5a1b1e
Cassidy 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Cassidy2015)


Early Bronze
Northern Ireland
Glebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin2]
M
2024–1741 BC
R1b1a2a1a2c1
L21/M529/S145 > DF13/S521
U5b2a2
Cassidy 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Cassidy2015)


Early Bronze
Northern Ireland
Glebe, Rathlin Island [Rathlin3]
M
1736–1534 BC
R1b1a2a1a2c
L21/M529/S145
J2b1a
Cassidy 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Cassidy2015)



this is 2000 BC
their Y-DNA is the same as today in Ireland, Brittany, Wales and eastern England
those people spoke Celtic
did they allready 2000 BC?
it can't be explained by Urnfield etc.
these people had trade relations with Nordic bronze before Urnfield
after the invasion of Urnfield people trade with Nordic bronze was disturbed but there was the 'Atlantic bronze' trade
this would perfectly explain the distribution of R1b-L21 over Europe


then there is the question of the king of Tartessos who had a Celtic name (allthough the population didn't speak Celtic)

bicicleur
21-07-16, 17:50
Mitanni main language was Hurrite but what the people were is unknown. There are Indo_Iranic deitis being mentioned in a treaty between Mitanni and the Hittites such as Mithra, Varna, Nasatya and Indra. Obviously you wouldn't do this because of a few Horse trainers.



Mitanni did not introduced "Indic" loanwords. Indic is a Hindu language a subbranch of Indo_Aryan that evolved in India. Mitanni didn't came from India. As I said it is mere speculation if the Mitanni were even Indo_Aryan or basically undivided archaic Indo_Iranian. The suggestion of Indo_Aryan is merely based on the fact that the Indo_Iranian words among Mitanni are so archaic and the deities are nowadays more common in India. But we actually know from linguistic point of view, that Indo_aryan itself is more archaic than Iranic. Therefore if we are dealing with an undivided Indo_Iranian branch linguistically seen it is common sense that it will be closer to Indo_aryan since Indo_Aryan at far less loudshifts than Iranic.


Kikkuli was a Mittani horse trainer who translated a manual for horse training from Mittani to Hittite language
For many technical terms there was no Mittani word nor Hittite word. For these terms Indic words were used in the manual.
So horse training for charriots was probably introduced in the Mittani kingdom by Indic people.

I think Indic did not develop in India, but in Bactria prior to the Vedic invasion into India.

berun
21-07-16, 19:01
Els Trocs was Cardial Culture, you can check out the paper.

Linking R1b L51 to Celtic you have a big problem: the undeniable Celtic samples of Germany that belong to the Urnfield Culture were I2 or alike.

Argantonios reference was about 600 BC, so some six centuries after the Celts (Urnfield) crossed the Pyrenees. South Portugal was inhabited by then by Celtici, Cunetes or Baeturi, Celtic peoples.

bicicleur
22-07-16, 08:18
Els Trocs cave was a shelter for herders.
There is contemporay mtDNA from NW Iberia which is not European HG mtDNA (U5), I wonder how it got there :







Y DNA

mtDNA



Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E3, PAT-2E1]
M & F
5700-4700 BC




H
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-1E5]
inf
5700-4700 BC




H
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-4E1]
M
5700-4700 BC




I
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Paternanbidea, Navarra [PAT-2E2]
F
5700-4700 BC




K
Hervella 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2009);2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012); 2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Els Trocs [I0409/Troc 1]
F
5311-5218 BC




J1c3
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015


Spain
Els Trocs [I0412/Troc 5]
M
5310-5206 BC
I2a1b1
L161+, CTS1293+,
N1a1a1
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015


Spain
Els Trocs [I0413/Troc 7]
F
5303-5204 BC




V
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015


Spain
Els Trocs [I0410/Troc 3]
M
5178-5066 BC
R1b1c
M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+], M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69-
T2c1d or T2c1d2
Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data; Mathieson 2015


Spain
Els Trocs [I0411/Troc 4]
M
5177-5068 BC
F (xG, I1, I2a, J, L1b2, T, O2b, Q1a2a, Q1b1, R1a1a, R1b1c2)
P135+, F1551-, M450-, S247-, CTS26-, YSC0000228-, M274-, PF5607-, CTS5268-, CTS7749-, L475-, FGC1861-, L449-, V35-
K1a2a
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-21, CAS-48, CAS-90, CAS-196]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-70, CAS 216, CAS 254, CAS-258]


5120-3880 BC




H?
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-33, CAS-182, CAS-497]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-173, CAS-222, CAS-341]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-193S, CAS-194]


5120-3880 BC




H
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-148]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-204]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-183]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-517]


5120-3880 BC




U
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-181, CAS-191, CAS-202 ]


5120-3880 BC




K
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-179]


5120-3880 BC




J
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-203]


5120-3880 BC




J
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-180]


5120-3880 BC




T2
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)


Spain
Los Cascajos, Navarre [CAS-257]


5120-3880 BC




X
Hervella 2012 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2012);2014 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Hervella2014)

bicicleur
22-07-16, 08:23
I believe the Carpathian Basin was a melting pot :

Starcevo-Köros was a melting pot between mainly G2a2 farmers and I2 HG, resulting in Vinca culture.

Vucedol was a melting pot between R1b steppe people and I2 natives.




Vucedol
Hungary
Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.8]


2860-2620 BC
R1b
M343+
T2b23
Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Szecsenyi-Nagy2015)


Vucedol
Hungary
Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10]


2860-2620 BC
I2a2a
M223+
H5
Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Szecsenyi-Nagy2015)




maybe same happened during formation of Urnfield



Urnfield
Germany
Halberstadt [I0099/HAL 36]
M
1113-1021 BC
R1a1a1b1a2
(Z280)
S204+, S198+, PF6217+
H23
Brandt 2013; Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave (http://www.hoehlen-erlebnis-zentrum.de/), near Dorste, Lower Saxony [M1, M2, M7]
M
1000 BC
I2a2b
Ii in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml); Z5REF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=Z5REF&p=0) in Ysearch
H
Schilz 2006 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Schilz2006)


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M3, M6]
M
1000 BC
I2a2b
Iii in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M14]
M
1000 BC
I2a2b?
Iii? in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M4, M5, M19]
M
1000 BC
I2a2b
Iiii in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M8, M16]
M
1000 BC
I2a2b
Ii in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml); Z5REF in Ysearch (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=Z5REF&p=0)
U5b
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M10]
M
1000 BC
R1a1?
Ri in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
T2?
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M11]
M
1000 BC
R1a1?
Ri? in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
U
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [M9]
M
1000 BC
R1b
Rbi in table 2 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml)
H
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F1, F12, F13, F19, F20, F21]
F
1000 BC




H
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F2, F3, M12, M15]
F
1000 BC




J*
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F14]
F
1000 BC




J1b1
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F5, F6, F10, F16]
F
1000 BC




T2
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F9, F18]
F
1000 BC




U
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F15]
F
1000 BC




U (2?)
Schilz 2006


Urnfield
Germany
Lichtenstein Cave [F4, F7, F8]
F
1000 BC




U5b
Schilz 2006

bicicleur
22-07-16, 08:46
Halstatt are linked to Urnfield culture
but I doubt they are the same people
we don't have DNA
but I'd guess Halstatt & La Tene are linked with expansion of R1b-U152

berun
22-07-16, 22:00
The Urnfield samples fit quite well with the archaeological expansion of the Urnfield culture from the High Rhin; from the Eupedia itself:


I2a2b (formerly I2b2) has a distribution mostly limited to Alpine Italy (esp. Piedmont), Switzerland, the German Rhineland, the Harz mountains, the Low Countries, eastern France, and the British Isles (with the exception of Cornwall, Wales, Cumbria and the Scottish Highlands). Four out of the six samples from the 3000-year old Lichtenstein Cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Cave) in central Germany belonged to L38+. The cave was part of the Bronze Age Urnfield Culture. Based on the STR dating, it is believed that this lineage spread from Germany to England via Belgium in the Late Iron Age with the Celtic people of the La Tène Culture. I2a2b is therefore essentially a Alpine Celtic haplogroup.

The problem with such ancient DNA samples is that are quite unusual, Urnfield takes its name by digging holes and leaving there urns with the ashes of the dead, but the samples came from people inhumated in a cave. Even so the old R1a substrate is found also.

The R1b-U152 could have benefited of the Celtic expansions (above all to Italy), but taking into account that L51 was already in Ireland with the Bell Beakers, I think that the other clades were mainly where they are now before any Celtic expansion.

bicicleur
22-07-16, 22:11
The R1b-U152 could have benefited of the Celtic expansions (above all to Italy), but taking into account that L51 was already in Ireland with the Bell Beakers, I think that the other clades were mainly where they are now before any Celtic expansion.

the Irish samples were R1b-L21, not L51

bicicleur
22-07-16, 22:27
this is the oldest R1b-U152 identified



Bell Beaker
Germany
Osterhofen-Altenmarkt [RISE563]
M


R1b1a2a1a2b
PF6570/S28/U152
K1c1
Allentoft 2015 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Allentoft2015); Mathieson 2015




way before Halstatt, but in the Halstatt area

berun
08-08-16, 16:28
I can recommend you this book.

Thank you, once read I have exposed some of their flawed propositions here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32602-The-big-bubble-Indoeuropean-Yamnayans?p=486667#post486667)

Alan
09-08-16, 10:50
Iran_Neo K6 results, note the calculator is just basic K6 and shows only Natufian and Iran_Neo no CHG or Anatolian_Neo therefore the elevated level of "WHG" because it catches up the Anatolian_Forager (WHG) portion up as such.


Iron Age Iranian Tepe Hasanlu F38 971-832 BC
R1b-Y:24376846, N1a3a
0.01% ASE
0.00% E_Asian
51.54% Iran_Neolithic
37.39% Natufian
11.00% WHG
0.07% Sub_Saharan

The Kurdish user MFA
1.71% ASE
2.30% E_Asian
45.77% Iran_Neolithic
38.08% Natufian
12.15% WHG
0.00% Sub_Saharan



A Yezidi Kurdish result
0.45% ASE
3.36% E_Asian
50.36% Iran_Neolithic
37.88% Natufian
7.94% WHG
0.00% Sub_Saharan

The blogger MFA pointed out already earlier that Tepe Hasanlu basically looks like a Kurdish minus the Steppe admixture. On PCAs it also plots basically there where you would expect the Kurds.