PDA

View Full Version : Looking for pictures of people with very high percentages of an regional admixture



Maciamo
15-07-16, 11:56
I have wonder for many years if "ethnic" or regional admixture are truly reflected in physical appearance or not. DNA segments used for genetic admixtures like those of Dodecad or Eurogenes do not necessarily contain a high percentage of genes affecting phenotypes. There could more of them that have do with health, fitness, immunity, or even non-coding parts of the DNA. The only way to put this to test is to compare what actual people with very high percentages of one particular admixture look like. For this purpose I'd like to find some of the outliers in each population. For example if any Norwegian scores over 40% for Eurogenes K15's North Sea admixture, or any Northeast European scores over 35% for Eurogenes K15's Baltic admixture, I'd be interested to see what they look like. That applies to all admixtures. Unusually high scores of Gedrosia, ANE, WHG and Red Sea admixtures are particularly welcome.

Angela
15-07-16, 19:09
I have wonder for many years if "ethnic" or regional admixture are truly reflected in physical appearance or not. DNA segments used for genetic admixtures like those of Dodecad or Eurogenes do not necessarily contain a high percentage of genes affecting phenotypes. There could more of them that have do with health, fitness, immunity, or even non-coding parts of the DNA. The only way to put this to test is to compare what actual people with very high percentages of one particular admixture look like. For this purpose I'd like to find some of the outliers in each population. For example if any Norwegian scores over 40% for Eurogenes K15's North Sea admixture, or any Northeast European scores over 35% for Eurogenes K15's Baltic admixture, I'd be interested to see what they look like. That applies to all admixtures. Unusually high scores of Gedrosia, ANE, WHG and Red Sea admixtures are particularly welcome.

Maciamo, my understanding is that it's all "junk" dna which doesn't code for anything.

My own personal feeling has always been that while there may be general country or ethnicity wide "correlations" of phenotype with certain "components", there is at the same time little individual correlation, particularly in populations with a lot of genetic variation.

The Ashkenazim are a prime example of what I mean. They're all cousins of one another, with very similar levels of the same components, and yet there is a lot of variation in phenotype.

Peter Falk:
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/articles/114000/peter-falk_114286_1.jpg?cache=1308957066

Lloyd Blankfein
http://i.forbesimg.com/media/lists/people/lloyd-blankfein_416x416.jpg

Larry David
http://www.11points.com/images/baldcelebrities/larrydavid.jpg

Kirk Douglas, born Issur Danielovitch:

http://www.oldtimeradiodownloads.com/assets/img/actor/567fbb6915a1f__douglas-kirk-nrfpt-04.jpg

Debra Messing (her hair is naturally a sort of medium brown:
http://production.tweaktoday.com/images/submissions/23665/medium_debra-messing-sag-awards-2008-02.jpg

I could do the same kind of montage with people from my own birth region.

http://www.istitutobiggini.it/wp-content/uploads/2vjknkv3.jpg

7874

http://www.resistenzaapuana.it/wp-content/uploads/19.086.jpg
Even among siblings there can be a great deal of variation. My brother and I, other than for eye shape and color, don't look anything alike.

Ed. click on the picture of the woman with braided hair in order to enlarge.

Alan
17-07-16, 02:41
I don't know if components like "Northsea" (wihich is actually kind of like Anatolian_Neo + some WHG) are still up to date though. Gedrosia on the other hand can be taken as equivalent of Iran_Neo since Iran_Neo is basically 70% Gedrosia and peaks in Iranian Zoroastrians, Balochi, Kurds and slightly lesser extend Georgians

I have a rough Idea how people with the very basic ancient admixtures might look like. And this based on the fact that the look is very common or specific among people, where one specific component peaks as well based on how skeletal remains of the ancient samples were classified by the archeologists. I didn't take the pimgentation much into account, obviously because since ancient times most went through some changes in that.

For Anatolian Farmer look I go with this. based on the fact that this look is widespred especially people with high Anatolian_Neo admixture look that way.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/eb/f7/00/ebf700883a11cc8453e4b93a02a945e9.jpghttp://i500.listal.com/image/6575415/500full.jpghttp://lamore-radio.com/img/articles/bd1bdaab82d9490ab601878058a87880_XL.jpghttp://mediadb.kicker.de/2014/fussball/spieler/xl/25110_1002_2013917161648550.jpghttp://beardpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/handsome-italian-man.jpg



Iran_Neo based on the common looks among the people in whom it peaks and skeletal remains.
http://www.wazala.org/photos/Iran-Afghanistan/Young_man~zoom.jpghttp://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/12/20/t1largamir.jpghttps://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpf1/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/1169144_1103151343071015_1005402571_n.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/0f/76/270f76e7ce56ec333187ff94ef3a2870.jpghttps://newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2016/03/24/24.03.16-balochi-590.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6cIetirjAUs/TJYVCDPIokI/AAAAAAAABx0/I3P8KPUQ9U4/s1600/mohammadreza-golzar-2.jpg
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2nta985.jpg
http://www.scandipop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/DarinMI.jpg This Kurdish dude looks kinda Freddy Mercury-ish who was an Indian Parsi(Zoroastrians from India). So I think it is safe to say it is an Iran_Neo-ish look.

Alan
17-07-16, 03:17
CHG based on the common looks among the people in whom it peaks and skeletal remains which were classified to have been Pontic Mediterranean like during the Neolithic times even.

http://www.vitesse.org/mysite/modules/MDIA0100/thumb_8_22436_55.jpg.jpghttp://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z193/shinpacha/theo-theodoridis-1.jpghttp://cdn.mmaweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Shahbulat-Shamhalaev-Bellator.jpg
http://ru2.anyfad.com/items/[email protected]/Akter-Anton-Makarskiy.jpg


Levant_Neo (Natufians would be very similar but darker pigmented on average).
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vDKgPhWh_e8/hqdefault.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KsDDCFfm79w/TdGbBBz1uJI/AAAAAAAADMI/FqesKgu73nw/s1600/javier-jattin.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9e/1e/9b/9e1e9bddda29dc27ec05f4030f1ce990.jpghttp://betaimages.filgoal.com/images//NewsPics/XLarge/168327752.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bc/2e/e8/bc2ee886d5e06ee3092ae437cdc68e4f.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Flickr_-_Government_Press_Office_(GPO)_-_Samaritans_praying_during_Passover_holiday_ceremo ny_on_mount_Grizim.jpg



Obviously there is some strong similarities between Anatolian-, Levant-, Iran-Neo and CHG. I call it the "Basal Eurasian connection", because I think it is due that.



WHG/SHG, based on where it peaks today(North, especially Northeast Europe around the Baltics) and skeletal remains.
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/721008658700771328/qcalffS-.jpghttp://celebrityinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/AJ-Styles.pnghttp://www.aref-adib.com/archives/blue-eyed-caveman-500px.jpghttp://richestcelebrities.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Charlie-Hunnam-Net-Worth.jpghttp://www.manlymovie.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Dolph-Lundgren.jpghttp://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_poles_react/img/6.jpg






EHG
http://1serial.tv/uploads/posts/2013-02/1360521716_8.jpghttp://allrus.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Yury-Yakovlev-in-1973-comedy-film-Ivan-Vasilievich-Changes-Profession-as-Ivan-the-Terrible-3.jpghttp://beautifulrus.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Igor-Jijikine.jpghttp://g.diena.lt/01/28/172b25.jpg


I intentionally didn't take any females because they usually have softer features and often overlap stronger than the male counterparts.

Fire Haired14
17-07-16, 07:18
Angela is right about wide range if variation amount individuals and that this means it'll be difficult to get good individual representatives for types of ancestry.

@Alan,

You're right the Eastern(Iran_Neo, CHG) and Western(Natufian, Anatolia_N) ancient Mid Easterners might mostly be related via Basal Eurasian. However, all modern Middle Easterners have huge chunks of ancestry from each group.

IMO, expecting to find Iran_Neo traits in Pakistan and Iran is like trying to find WHG traits in Basque and Finnish. Its interesting to think about but I think we should wait till more research is done on phenotype to be confident we know which traits are from so and so ancient population.

Fire Haired14
17-07-16, 07:28
@Maciamo,

You'll be interested in this.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/07/genome-wide-variants-of-eurasian-facial.html?m=1

The comments are the most informative part of that link.

So using over 100 SNPs associated with face shape to make a PCA there's a West Eurasia/East Asia+America divide. Meso/Neo Europeans cluster with West Eurasia. The single Paleo European; Kostinki, however clusters in no mans land.

When 750 SNPs from genes associated with face shape are used to create an ADMIXTURE test the same divide appears. Except this time there's a not so obvious "South/North' in West Eurasia. Mesolithic man Loschbour scores some 90% in "Northen' and Neolithic woman Stuttgart scores some 70%.

The scores are pretty messy and the North/South components don't have clear geographic patterns. But still this is interesting. I think it is at the least evidence Stone age Europeans had faces similar to modern ones.

Fire Haired14
17-07-16, 07:34
Anatolia_N definitely has that typical MidEast look. Its probably a MidEast look because there's so much related ancestry in MidEast.

CHG and Iran_Neo were so unrelated they could have been something different. If only Scythians never disappeared/asdilimated, they'd be the best EHG reference. At the moment I'd say Europeans in general, but especially Northern Europe(difference in EHG between Balt and British is slight) and maybe even Sami.

davef
17-07-16, 08:39
I don't know if components like "Northsea" (wihich is actually kind of like Anatolian_Neo + some WHG) are still up to date though. Gedrosia on the other hand can be taken as equivalent of Iran_Neo since Iran_Neo is basically 70% Gedrosia and peaks in Iranian Zoroastrians, Balochi, Kurds and slightly lesser extend Georgians

I have a rough Idea how people with the very basic ancient admixtures might look like. And this based on the fact that the look is very common or specific among people, where one specific component peaks as well based on how skeletal remains of the ancient samples were classified by the archeologists. I didn't take the pimgentation much into account, obviously because since ancient times most went through some changes in that.

For Anatolian Farmer look I go with this. based on the fact that this look is widespred especially people with high Anatolian_Neo admixture look that way.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/eb/f7/00/ebf700883a11cc8453e4b93a02a945e9.jpghttp://i500.listal.com/image/6575415/500full.jpghttp://lamore-radio.com/img/articles/bd1bdaab82d9490ab601878058a87880_XL.jpghttp://mediadb.kicker.de/2014/fussball/spieler/xl/25110_1002_2013917161648550.jpghttp://beardpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/handsome-italian-man.jpg



Iran_Neo based on the common looks among the people in whom it peaks and skeletal remains.
http://www.wazala.org/photos/Iran-Afghanistan/Young_man~zoom.jpghttp://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/12/20/t1largamir.jpghttps://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xpf1/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/1169144_1103151343071015_1005402571_n.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/27/0f/76/270f76e7ce56ec333187ff94ef3a2870.jpghttps://newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2016/03/24/24.03.16-balochi-590.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6cIetirjAUs/TJYVCDPIokI/AAAAAAAABx0/I3P8KPUQ9U4/s1600/mohammadreza-golzar-2.jpg
http://oi65.tinypic.com/2nta985.jpg
http://www.scandipop.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/DarinMI.jpg This Kurdish dude looks kinda Freddy Mercury-ish who was an Indian Parsi(Zoroastrians from India). So I think it is safe to say it is an Iran_Neo-ish look.
OMG I look almost like the guy in the fourth picture down in your post, except I have brown hair. I'm a true Anatolian farmer!!!

Alan
17-07-16, 14:37
Angela is right about wide range if variation amount individuals and that this means it'll be difficult to get good individual representatives for types of ancestry.

@Alan,

You're right the Eastern(Iran_Neo, CHG) and Western(Natufian, Anatolia_N) ancient Mid Easterners might mostly be related via Basal Eurasian. However, all modern Middle Easterners have huge chunks of ancestry from each group.

IMO, expecting to find Iran_Neo traits in Pakistan and Iran is like trying to find WHG traits in Basque and Finnish. Its interesting to think about but I think we should wait till more research is done on phenotype to be confident we know which traits are from so and so ancient population.

YOu got 40-60% Iran_Neo DNA in the region between Georgia, Balochistan and Afghanistan. It will not be that hard to find once in a while features in all of them that can be contributed to Iran_Neo.

Alan
17-07-16, 15:04
Anatolia_N definitely has that typical MidEast look. Its probably a MidEast look because there's so much related ancestry in MidEast.


You are making a big mistake here. How do you know what the "Middle Eastern" look was even 2000 years ago? That is like saying Loshbour had a typical European look, while even those in the Baltics have at least ~50% post mesolithic Near Eastern DNA.
The Anatolian_Neo DNA peaks in modern South Europeans, the sekeltal remains from Catal Höyuk where almost all described as Robust with long cephalic index (Dolichocephalic). The same with the Natufian and Levantine_Neo skulls.

The Iranian_Neo skulls and CHG must have been slightly less long (meso to dolichocephalic) and dinarizted, broader in going slightly into EHG direction.


CHG and Iran_Neo were so unrelated they could have been something different.

This statement isn't really correct. Yes they were different this is why I didn't put them together. Yet so unrelated? The difference would be like the difference between WHG and SHG. The only difference is that Iran_Neo has some more Basal Eurasian(~60%) than CHG (40%). But both have an ANE like component as their other ancestry, which is around 40% in Iran_Neo and almost 60% in CHG according to the paper.


If only Scythians never disappeared/asdilimated, they'd be the best EHG reference. At the moment I'd say Europeans in general, but especially Northern Europe(difference in EHG between Balt and British is slight) and maybe even Sami.
Scythian samples show ~35% EHG 35% CHG and 15% Anatolian_Neo, ~10% East Eurasian and little ASI.
Scythians would have looked like a mix of the both strongest elements in most part


EHG look must be something that is speicifc (It doesn't need to be the typical look but something specific for them) for North and East Europe. And when I think of something specific found among them than it is this what many here call the "Slavic face". They often reffer to a roundish/broad face with middle long skull (brachy or mesocephalic).

But the fact that EHG and WHG are actually today the weakest components in all of West Eurasia makes it obvious that we will have harder time finding representatives of these two than the other.

And of course naturally there will be overlap with all of them. You will see overlap between Anatolian, Levant, Iranian- Neo and CHG. As well overlap between Anatolian, Levant_Neo and WHG. While there will be overlap between CHG, Iran_Neo and EHG too.

Angela
17-07-16, 17:46
Anatolia_N definitely has that typical MidEast look. Its probably a MidEast look because there's so much related ancestry in MidEast.

CHG and Iran_Neo were so unrelated they could have been something different. If only Scythians never disappeared/asdilimated, they'd be the best EHG reference. At the moment I'd say Europeans in general, but especially Northern Europe(difference in EHG between Balt and British is slight) and maybe even Sami.

WHAT? Fire-Haired, please take a trip to the modern Middle East and come back and tell me how many modern Middle Easterners look like that.

Turkish crowd:
http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/turk-crowd.jpg

Palestinian crowd:
http://palestinechronicle.com/uploads/1248744152arab_48_flag_crowd.jpg

Iranian crowd:
http://blogs.cfr.org/lindsay/files/2013/06/2013-06-13-Iran.jpg

Fire Haired14
17-07-16, 22:06
@Angela,

They all look basically the same.

Angela
18-07-16, 00:17
@Angela,

They all look basically the same.

There's absolutely nothing to say to that which wouldn't be insulting, so I'll let it go, I guess.

Well, perhaps I could gently suggest that you check your scores on facial recognition tests? Leaving aside the question of pigmentation, the features are very different.

Alan
18-07-16, 00:47
WHAT? Fire-Haired, please take a trip to the modern Middle East and come back and tell me how many modern Middle Easterners look like that.

Turkish crowd:
http://radio.foxnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/turk-crowd.jpg

Palestinian crowd:
http://palestinechronicle.com/uploads/1248744152arab_48_flag_crowd.jpg

Iranian crowd:
http://blogs.cfr.org/lindsay/files/2013/06/2013-06-13-Iran.jpg

Yes we have to take into account that modern Iranians, Palestinians, Turks have significant admixture from other components. Turks have significant enough East Eurasian, EHG and little WHG admixture, otherwise the Turks in the image look pretty much like a mix of Iran_Neo, Levant_Neo and CHG, Anatolian Neo (the Iran_Neo being actually the strongest component).

Palestinians have significant SSA admixture (from 8 to 15% in Gaza). Otherwise they are pretty much Levant_Neo. But we know SSA admixture is most distinct to West Eurasian components and will effect the look even more than anything West Eurasian. I can't see the Palestinian crowd though.

Iranians are basically Iran_Neo with strong Levant_Neo, CHG, Anatolian_Neo admixture as well some other minor admixtures such as ASI (~4%), East Eurasian (~3%), EHG (~5%), SSA (depending on the region from 1-3%).

So the only one we don't seem to have any representative of are the Anatolian_Neos. Otherwise I see my selection pretty much confirmed. The Neolithic look being a meso to dolichocephalic one with on average medium broad and sometimes thin facal structure. And this baseline seems to be still in existence despite of gracilization process as well various admixture from other regions over time. A sidenote there are few non fully ethnic Turks or Iranians/Persians in both images though.