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Tomenable
20-07-16, 03:04
Apparently dealing cannabis was a very lucrative business on the Eurasian Steppe of the Bronze Age:

Article - https://www.newscientist.com/article/2096440-founders-of-western-civilisation-were-prehistoric-dope-dealers/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3vlONgNFbo

Also in later times, Iranic-speakers of the Pazyryk culture (including the Ukok Princess) smoked weed:

"The Ukok plateau, Altai, Siberia, where Princess and two warriors were discovered. Their bodies were surrounded by six horses fully bridles, various offering of food and a pouch of cannabis":

Full article - The astonishing 2,500 year old tattoos of a Siberian princess - and how little has changed in the art | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2188157/The-astonishing-2-500-year-old-tattoos-Siberian-princess--little-changed-art.html#ixzz3S3EcEDS6)

The mummy of Ukok Princess with tatoos - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xNsV8ARnHKo/U4oBTKuixtI/AAAAAAAArdk/fFutOjewBhw/s1600/93972694.jpg

^^^ She died aged ca. 25 years old.

holderlin
20-07-16, 03:28
I've always claimed this for IE's. I hope it to be true. It would account for their apparent unprecedented skill at animal mastery.

holderlin
20-07-16, 03:37
The stereotypical stoner beliefs were all true, is seems.

davef
20-07-16, 04:11
This thread means a lot to me.

MarkoZ
20-07-16, 05:55
I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.

dodona
20-07-16, 08:08
Apparently dealing cannabis was a very lucrative business on the Eurasian Steppe of the Bronze Age...Also in later times, Iranic-speakers of the Pazyryk culture (including the Ukok Princess) smoked weed.. these scytoid tribes of a short period of the 700-400 BC weren't proto-indoeuropeans, who dwelled the steppes millenias earlier. It even isn't quite clear if the pazyryk were IE at all. Guess the whole issues of drug dealing IE is a primitive racist slur and has nothing to do with science at all.

arvistro
20-07-16, 10:46
Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
On other hand might not be an issue.

bicicleur
20-07-16, 12:05
it looks like they brought cannabis into China 5000 years ago

MOESAN
01-08-16, 18:32
I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.

???
Have you some basis to your present affirmation concerning complete dichotomy between males and females in Pazyryk? It seems Pazyryk population was heterogenous at some stage of its life ('europoid'/'east-asian', roughly said), in the meaning of individuals showing different degrees of admixture, based on anDNA; even if I have not the sex of the concerned remnants, I can guess it was not so simple (males vs females). I 'll try to find more details about Pazyryk evolution by time. If you have some details at hand, you can give them to me.

bicicleur
01-08-16, 19:10
I think Pazyryk culture is too eastern to be considered Scythian in the proper sense. It was in any case a rather mixed Eurasian culture, wherein only the women resembled the Caucasoid populations of the western grasslands and Eastern Europe.



Scytho-Siberian
Pazyryk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials)
Altaï Republic
Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96 K1]
M
450 BC




F2a
Ricaut 2004c (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Ricaut2004c)


Scytho-Siberian
Pazyryk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials)
Altaï Republic
Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96K2]
M
450 BC
R1a1a
M17
D?
Ricaut 2004c (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Ricaut2004c);Keyser 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Keyser2009)




mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area

MOESAN
01-08-16, 19:12
Someones think Pazyryk was Turkic, other I-Eans or more precisely Scythian ( I wait someone thinking they were Ugric). At first sight their culture were closer to Scythian cultures of other places. Others say the males were a mix of 'europoid' and 'east-asian' when females were more on the 'europoid side' (it's the case of the Princess), showing perhaps later relations with more western lands (trade). Others (scholars) think the mixture in Altay was ancient enough, based on mt-DNA, and that as a whole, the later expansions from Altay were the result of a demographic growth on the basis of an already well mixed population since a long enough time, without recent heavy moves from West or East into the region...???
Helas I don't know how many corpses have been tested for Y and mt-DNA, and I suppose the number in cause is yet not sufficient - period by period - to allow a chronological stratification to show from where the first bearers of the culture came there IF they came there.

A. Papadimitriou
01-08-16, 20:23
Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
On other hand might not be an issue.

The word cannabis in English comes from Greek via Latin. But Greek borrowed it supposedly from Scythian or Thracian.
The fact that a most likely related word existed in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_cuneiform) texts in the first millenium BCE for me means that the root isn't necessarily IE.
If it is IE it would mean that Scythians or Thracians (or some other 'Indoeuropeans') exported cannabis to Assyria.

Milan
01-08-16, 20:30
The word cannabis in English comes from Greek via Latin. But Greek borrowed it supposedly from Scythian or Thracian.
The fact that a most likely related word existed in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_cuneiform) texts in the first millenium BCE for me means that the root isn't necessarily IE.
If it is IE it would mean that Scythians or Thracians (or some other 'Indoeuropeans') exported cannabis to Assyria.

It is interesting that from Cannabis some of the first ropes were made.
In a dialect i speak,variant of southern-slavic the material "hemp" from which rope is made we call it Kanъb which is the most close word to the original name,the plant however generally is called in Slavic Konop,as well the various material made of it strings,ropes etc.

MarkoZ
01-08-16, 20:34
mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area

R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?

In any case, Pazyryk is a highly stratified culture spanning all across the Altai range. The skeletons retrieved from the Pazyryk burial mounds reveal an unambiguous association between morphology, sex and social status, with the Europoid skeletons showing a tendency towards lowered social status and female sex. That's what Sergei Rudenko who led the excavation at Pazyryk found; see his book "Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron Age Horsemen".

bicicleur
01-08-16, 22:39
R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?


where is the oldest R1a1a found?

MOESAN
01-08-16, 23:44
Scytho-Siberian
Pazyryk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials)
Altaï Republic
Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96 K1]
M
450 BC




F2a
Ricaut 2004c (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Ricaut2004c)


Scytho-Siberian
Pazyryk culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_burials)
Altaï Republic
Sebÿstei Valley [SEB 96K2]
M
450 BC
R1a1a
M17
D?
Ricaut 2004c (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Ricaut2004c);Keyser 2009 (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.shtml#Keyser2009)




mtDNA is eastern, Y DNA European

we don't know the origin of the Scyths, only that they had expanded over a vast area


Thanks, bicicleur

MOESAN
01-08-16, 23:55
R1a1a is European? How did you come to that conclusion?

In any case, Pazyryk is a highly stratified culture spanning all across the Altai range. The skeletons retrieved from the Pazyryk burial mounds reveal an unambiguous association between morphology, sex and social status, with the Europoid skeletons showing a tendency towards lowered social status and female sex. That's what Sergei Rudenko who led the excavation at Pazyryk found; see his book "Frozen Tombs of Siberia: The Pazyryk Burials of Iron Age Horsemen".

Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???

RobertColumbia
02-08-16, 01:22
Do we have PIE word for Cannabis?
On other hand might not be an issue.

Yep, *kan(n)aB (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_cannabis)

holderlin
02-08-16, 06:30
Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???

I think this is a fitting thread for me to tell you that I've always needed to smoke weed to understand your posts. This isn't a bad thing. I think it's because they're dense.

Of course I don't mean this literally, but for some reason I noticed when I'm blowing through a thread I slow down on your posts. Unless I'm stoned, in which case I appreciate the succinctness.

Sile
02-08-16, 09:06
Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???

this looks good to me

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10734&d=1470068892

MarkoZ
02-08-16, 13:50
Thanks.The cultures of the Steppes show converging aspects whatever the language and ethnic affiliation; due to environmental adaptation and diverse exchanges? Even art can be exported/imported. RI suppose that for now Pazyryk language - if one only - is unknown. I 'll try to find the book you cited and see if the samples are big enough for statistics. All the way, if correct concerning types/status, this culture could very well be the cradle of future Turks??? The Scythian "empire" could be a mix of I-Eans and others according to time and places???
I don't think it's really possible to assign a language to pre-literate cultures like this, especially when the material culture is rather pan-Eurasian as is the case with the shamanistic animal style found in Pazyryk. The objects that are really distinctive seem to be imports from South Asia, namely Iran & India.

As regards to your proto-Turkic suggestion, I think Pazyryk is too old for that.

MOESAN
02-08-16, 14:27
I don't think it's really possible to assign a language to pre-literate cultures like this, especially when the material culture is rather pan-Eurasian as is the case with the shamanistic animal style found in Pazyryk. The objects that are really distinctive seem to be imports from South Asia, namely Iran & India.

As regards to your proto-Turkic suggestion, I think Pazyryk is too old for that.


You surely noticed it was a "maybe" or a "perhaps"; but cultures exchange(d): it seems Scythian art had some imput on (late) celtic art so...
Your remark concerning language is one I red more than a time here and there; but don't forget languages are for the most born by proto-languages themselves born bt proto-proto-languages. As for haplos, Y-R1b-P312 is born by Y-R1b-L11: thinking people with P312 are steeply different from people with L11 is a perspective error I found very often in posts. Concerning language my loose hypothesis was that maybe in Altay (more East) there was a population ancestral to futur Turks or Huns with the corresponding ancestral stage of language, and in contact with I-Eans having reached the Altay.the big mobility of all the steppes population could (not: "can") explain the art influences? In BMAC region we saw stations with BMAC pottery and Steppics weapons, if I red well.
The ethnic / linguistic borders are not always so easy to detect based only upon archeology, if we lack language and DNA (and even with them!)
Good afternoon.

MOESAN
05-08-16, 17:39
Some possible readings concerning Great Central Asia. I haven't red them, only cross-looked at them. Let's google them. It concerns more Siberia than Central Asia proper but they are at the borders and interacted with I-Eans of East and of South at some stages of History.



Iron Age Nomads of Southern Siberia in craniofacial perspective. RW Schmidt & AA Evleev

Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai - M GOnzalez Ruiz 2012

Non-metric Traits in Early Iron Age Cranial Serie from Western and Southern Siberia (Siberia Anthropology - Doi / VG Moiseyev Museum of Anthorpology)

Tomenable
14-08-16, 14:14
where is the oldest R1a1a found?

In Karelia.

MOESAN
18-08-16, 22:48
I think this is a fitting thread for me to tell you that I've always needed to smoke weed to understand your posts. This isn't a bad thing. I think it's because they're dense.

Of course I don't mean this literally, but for some reason I noticed when I'm blowing through a thread I slow down on your posts. Unless I'm stoned, in which case I appreciate the succinctness.

Some little taste of irony? Or rather cool humor, I think, according to your other posts. It's true I try to write the less posts possible and put in them a lot of stuff, not always with the clearest syntax or the most logical order. I 'll try to do well in future. But human story research is based upon many aspects and I try to put them all in the same bag very often. Nos vad.

MOESAN
20-08-16, 00:49
this looks good to me

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10734&d=1470068892

THanks, I'd saw it before: mainstream copy. One possibility, among others, though it's my preferred one todate.
But it doesn't answer the question: when/where begun the I-Ean / Turkic-Hunnic transition around Altay?
I think first Turcs and Huns were on the side of the 'east-asian' people, rather SE Asia than Siberia, spite mixtures among the mongoloid types. If I rely on the Pazyryk study evocating male/dominant and female/lower class opposition for types (mongoloid vs europoid) I'm tempted to think it was the time (IA) and one of the places of the Turcs or proto-Turcs rising, taking the strong side upon the ancient masters, the I-Eans. Possible.

Milan
29-09-16, 23:30
Kapnobatai

From Wikipedia

Kapnobatai, meaning "those who walk on/in smoke/clouds", were ancient shamans and descendants of the Scythians as well as the Thracians and Dacians who burned cannabis flowers to induce a state of trance.It is believed that as cannabis slowly spread westward, these peoples were introduced to it by the ancient Aryans, of whom in turn were introduced to it by the ancient Assyrians, and them by the ancient Hindus. These past cultures were some of the very first to smoke cannabis for recreational and spiritual purposes.