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Maleth
26-07-16, 12:07
Two men who took several people hostage in a church in France's northern Normandy region have been "neutralised", the French interior ministry said Tuesday. Police sources said one of the hostages was killed.

http://www.france24.com/en/20160726-assailants-take-hostages-church-near-french-city-rouen

gyms
26-07-16, 14:11
http://www.wsj.com/articles/one-hostage-dead-two-attackers-killed-after-assault-on-church-in-france-police-say-1469525653

Two men claiming allegiance to Islamic State killed a priest and gravely injured another person Tuesday during morning Mass at a church in a northern French town, authorities said, the latest in a string of attacks that have shocked Western Europe over the last two weeks.

http://www.france24.com/en/20160726-assailants-take-hostages-church-near-french-city-rouen

bicicleur
26-07-16, 14:13
there seems to be another attack going on in Berlin right now

I think you can start another thread almost every day

Maleth
26-07-16, 14:45
After the attack in Nice, France extended a state of emergency (http://www.france24.com/en/20160720-france-national-assembly-votes-extend-state-emergency-wake-nice-attack) giving police extra powers to carry out searches and place people under house arrest for another six months until January.

Its more complex then this. It might take more then just extending a state of emergency. It seems this is not going to be enough to ensure the safety of people.

gyms
26-07-16, 14:51
After the attack in Nice, France extended a state of emergency (http://www.france24.com/en/20160720-france-national-assembly-votes-extend-state-emergency-wake-nice-attack) giving police extra powers to carry out searches and place people under house arrest for another six months until January.

Its more complex then this. It might take more then just extending a state of emergency. It seems this is not going to be enough to ensure the safety of people.


Viktor Orban Hungarian PM's speech after the Nice terror attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdqAjDhVpo

Maleth
26-07-16, 16:09
Viktor Orban Hungarian PM's speech after the Nice terror attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdqAjDhVpo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ_MHP4S6X4

Check 6.30 on time counter.....why other countries in EU do not do this instead of criticizing (bullying) other countries that take care of their national security? How can you have people crossing borders without being registered in a free for all flow?

LeBrok
26-07-16, 16:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ_MHP4S6X4

Check 6.30 on time counter.....why other countries in EU do not do this instead of criticizing (bullying) other countries that take care of their national security? How can you have people crossing borders without being registered in a free for all flow?I like your prime minister, a very rational person. I agree with him. Either we stop the boats by cost of Africa and turn them around at source, or EU need to come together to help Malta, Italy and Greece building detention camps for better immigrant screening. I think both ways should be implemented.
I would like to repeat that Nato should have gone to finish IS quickly couple of years ago. But we didn't do it, allowing IS to spread their propaganda, soldiers and money to organize attacks in Europe and around the world.

Maleth
26-07-16, 17:21
I like your prime minister, a very rational person. I agree with him. Either we stop the boats by cost of Africa and turn them around at source, or EU need to come together to help Malta, Italy and Greece building detention camps for better immigrant screening. I think both ways should be implemented.
I would like to repeat that Nato should have gone to finish IS quickly couple of years ago. But we didn't do it, allowing IS to spread their propaganda, soldiers and money to organize attacks in Europe and around the world.

Thanks, I believe he is too, our economy has grown under his leadership 14% of our work force is non Maltese and not too many people seem to complain about it. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20160209/local/italians-lead-surge-in-foreign-workers-in-malta.601769.

Detention centers are not prisons. They are necessary places were people could be monitored (Registered, interviewed and observed) Children will already start schooling and defiantly 'should' be grateful for being in a safe environment. It has been known many times that some have shown an aggressive / criminal behavior to the point that when their application is refused they set the place on fire or go on a smashing spree. But of course these are the exception and not the rule. Even through all this monitoring a few manage to get into petty criminal behavior when given temporary citizenship, so even that is not 100% safe, let alone a free unregistered crowd.

bicicleur
26-07-16, 19:26
Thanks, I believe he is too, our economy has grown under his leadership 14% of our work force is non Maltese and not too many people seem to complain about it. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20160209/local/italians-lead-surge-in-foreign-workers-in-malta.601769.

Detention centers are not prisons. They are necessary places were people could be monitored (Registered, interviewed and observed) Children will already start schooling and defiantly 'should' be grateful for being in a safe environment. It has been known many times that some have shown an aggressive / criminal behavior to the point that when their application is refused they set the place on fire or go on a smashing spree. But of course these are the exception and not the rule. Even through all this monitoring a few manage to get into petty criminal behavior when given temporary citizenship, so even that is not 100% safe, let alone a free unregistered crowd.

what do you do with those whose application is rejected? most of them don't return voluntarily ..
the Syrian suicide bomber in Ansbach 2 days ago was refused asylum a year ago, yet Germany hadn't managed to send him back ..
Belgium finally ends up paying them money if they return home voluntarily, saying these people paid more money to the human trafickers to get in Belgium, so they don't make a profit .. yet I think all this is quite bizarre

bicicleur
26-07-16, 19:33
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ_MHP4S6X4

Check 6.30 on time counter.....why other countries in EU do not do this instead of criticizing (bullying) other countries that take care of their national security? How can you have people crossing borders without being registered in a free for all flow?

it is what happened in Greece .. hence more and more people arrived untill the flow became realy uncontrollable .. fences were needed in the Balkans to stop people that Greece let through without any controll .. yet the fence builders were labelled 'racist'

Greece was offered money and help to controll the flow, they refused (they didn't want controllers coming from other EU countries on their territory) untill people were stopped at the Macedonian border and stayed in Greece
well, you know, it ended with a deal with 'our friend' Erdogan

Sile
26-07-16, 20:23
what do you do with those whose application is rejected? most of them don't return voluntarily ..
the Syrian suicide bomber in Ansbach 2 days ago was refused asylum a year ago, yet Germany hadn't managed to send him back ..
Belgium finally ends up paying them money if they return home voluntarily, saying these people paid more money to the human trafickers to get in Belgium, so they don't make a profit .. yet I think all this is quite bizarre

send them back, they need to fight to restore their way of life. Do you think the English, French, Germans etc would mass migrate somewhere else if they where in the same predicament!

with only 30000 jobs found so far for 1 million refugees, I would say Merkel has blundered big time. The intent for most are to live off the state.

They should only have picked up and retained married families ( DNA test for legitimacy ) and the single people returned.

Dinarid
26-07-16, 21:41
I think the phrases "nothing to do with Islam" and "isolated incident" are going to be quite worn out by the media.

VMRO1893
27-07-16, 01:44
I think the European public will become de-sensitized to these regular events, and it will become something like mass-shootings in the US - just part of the media cycle. Sad really.

LeBrok
27-07-16, 01:55
I think the phrases "nothing to do with Islam" and "isolated incident" are going to be quite worn out by the media.
Could you give us examples of media saying this. I'm watching news every day and never heard these statements.

LeBrok
27-07-16, 04:31
send them back, they need to fight to restore their way of life. Do you think the English, French, Germans etc would mass migrate somewhere else if they where in the same predicament! You need a history lesson. Millions of them emigrated to USA, Canada and Australia, and many other countries.

Dinarid
27-07-16, 05:36
Could you give us examples of media saying this. I'm watching news every day and never heard these statements.
Maybe not in Canada. Not so much on the news ​as the commentators.

Twilight
27-07-16, 05:41
send them back, they need to fight to restore their way of life. Do you think the English, French, Germans etc would mass migrate somewhere else if they where in the same predicament!

with only 30000 jobs found so far for 1 million refugees, I would say Merkel has blundered big time. The intent for most are to live off the state.

They should only have picked up and retained married families ( DNA test for legitimacy ) and the single people returned.
The Pilgrims migrated to USA to avoid Religious persecution. Part of the reason why we Americans celebrate Thanksgiving. ;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

But I agree, the Immigrants need to bring there wife's and children; if they have kids in order to declare peace and settlement in Europe and America.

LeBrok
27-07-16, 07:27
Maybe not in Canada. Not so much on the news ​as the commentators.BBC today mentioned Islamic terrorists and Islamists. What commentators you are listening to?

bicicleur
27-07-16, 07:50
BBC today mentioned Islamic terrorists and Islamists. What commentators you are listening to?

the phrasing actually came from Obama, I don't remeber any more after which incident, there have been so many ..

Northener
27-07-16, 10:54
And now we get trapped in a race to the bottom? Act and react. Fundamentalism contra fundamentalism? IS fuels the extreme right of Le Pen, Wilders, Pegida, UKIP, a bunch of xenophobic Eastern Europeans and uncle Donald Trump, with his wall against the Latino's....and vice versa. And 'en passant' we get rid of values like tolerance, room for diversity and other enlightened values. That's a loss too me....


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Yetos
27-07-16, 14:04
I think the phrases "nothing to do with Islam" and "isolated incident" are going to be quite worn out by the media.

I agree with you,

Angela
27-07-16, 15:25
Washington Post article on it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/attackers-slit-french-priests-throat-in-church-shot-dead-by-police/2016/07/26/618a9600-5315-11e6-b7de-dfe509430c39_story.html?postshare=2191469562843881&tid=ss_tw

"French authorities identified one of the attackers Tuesday evening as Adel Kermiche, a 19-year-old local resident already known to anti-terrorist investigators and whose parents had reportedly alerted authorities about his radicalization."


"According to Paris prosecutor François Molins, Kermiche was arrested twice in 2015 for trying to travel to Syria — once in Germany, where he attempted to use his brother’s identity, and once in Turkey, where he was caught with his cousin’s ID card.

According to Molins, Kermiche was detained for nearly a year before being released under judicial supervision earlier this year, which required him to wear an electronic bracelet and check in regularly with police. He was permitted to leave his home for four hours a day on weekdays and six hours on Saturdays.
Molins said the church attack began at 9:24 a.m. Tuesday, during Kermiche’s unsupervised leave, when his electronic bracelet was apparently deactivated."

Yetos
27-07-16, 21:41
Well

It semms like christians are old and about at the end of their circle,

If a Roman emperror behead a christian, they made him a Saint,
If a cannibal from unknown even tribes ate a priest, Church made him Saint,
even Christians farmers who lost a finger by a barbarian raid, They automatically become Saints,

But this poor priest? Naaaa
political stability does not want him to be a Saint, not even a Martyr of faith,
cause he was beheaded by a lunatic jihadist they say,
and the the time is not Correct to make new Saints,
-who knows, maybe he did not suffer for his faith,
Poor West your end is near,
and jihad knows this well.

I wonder what would happened at France if a christian behead a muslim priest?

red and blue Sibyllas seems to be correct.

Petros Houhoulis
27-07-16, 21:58
And now we get trapped in a race to the bottom? Act and react. Fundamentalism contra fundamentalism? IS fuels the extreme right of Le Pen, Wilders, Pegida, UKIP, a bunch of xenophobic Eastern Europeans and uncle Donald Trump, with his wall against the Latino's....and vice versa. And 'en passant' we get rid of values like tolerance, room for diversity and other enlightened values. That's a loss too me....


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Depends on how far this goes, and it can't go very far. All of the "xenophobic" politicians in Europe have one thing in common, a hatred of some non-European cultures and - occasionally - non-European people. None of them are xenophobic towards other European cultures or people, with the exception of a few thugs in Britain who were chasing Poles after Brexit.

The common target is of course Islam, nevertheless other religions and non-Islamic people are rarely targeted. East Asians are more likely to be successful in the U.K. than whites, the Hindus are the most successful of the recent immigrant minorities in the United States of America. Even "Uncle Trump" has no problem with the Hispanics per se, but rather with their large numbers and their impact in the economy and crime.

I don't see any "loss" if Islam gets suppressed, but that could open a can of worms down the road...

Dinarid
28-07-16, 00:52
And now we get trapped in a race to the bottom? Act and react. Fundamentalism contra fundamentalism? IS fuels the extreme right of Le Pen, Wilders, Pegida, UKIP, a bunch of xenophobic Eastern Europeans and uncle Donald Trump, with his wall against the Latino's....and vice versa. And 'en passant' we get rid of values like tolerance, room for diversity and other enlightened values. That's a loss too me....


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No, let's just keep repeating that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism or intolerance. Maybe protecting tolerance requires a stronger defense of western cultural values? Oh wait, no, apparently it's racist to suggest that.

VMRO1893
28-07-16, 00:58
And now we get trapped in a race to the bottom? Act and react. Fundamentalism contra fundamentalism? IS fuels the extreme right of Le Pen, Wilders, Pegida, UKIP, a bunch of xenophobic Eastern Europeans and uncle Donald Trump, with his wall against the Latino's....and vice versa. And 'en passant' we get rid of values like tolerance, room for diversity and other enlightened values. That's a loss too me....


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Your suggestions for how to stop jihadist attacks in Europe? It seems western Europeans still do not understand the assailants and just how determined they are and just how long they can keep doing what they are doing.

VMRO1893
28-07-16, 00:59
BBC today mentioned Islamic terrorists and Islamists. What commentators you are listening to?

That's progress I guess. The head is finally being removed from the sand....I hope

LeBrok
28-07-16, 03:08
That's progress I guess. The head is finally being removed from the sand....I hope
I just saw the Pope Francis speaking on BBC in relation to the priest killing.

He said the conflict was not "a religious war," adding that "all religions preach peace — it's the others who want war." Here we have a denyer. ;)

Twilight
28-07-16, 04:36
I just saw the Pope Francis speaking on BBC in relation to the priest killing.
Here we have a denyer. ;)

Well, the guy has a spiritual explanation for everything. I can't wait to go to church this Sunday to see what Pope Francis has in mind.

VMRO1893
28-07-16, 05:46
I just saw the Pope Francis speaking on BBC in relation to the priest killing.
Here we have a denyer. ;)

Sorry, head in the sand still. I have zero respect for the current Pope.

LABERIA
28-07-16, 06:51
Your suggestions for how to stop jihadist attacks in Europe? It seems western Europeans still do not understand the assailants and just how determined they are and just how long they can keep doing what they are doing.

And how do you understand the assailants? How many from this assailants are settled in your country?

LABERIA
28-07-16, 07:02
Sorry, head in the sand still. I have zero respect for the current Pope.

And what's the problem with Pope?

Twilight
28-07-16, 07:03
(Sorry about the extra copy, had a glitch)

Twilight
28-07-16, 07:07
And how do you understand the assailants? How many from this assailants are settled in your country?

I've meet a lot of American Muslims that are peaceful people. You can commonly see them all over the place in Seattle. Sure there are some bad guys here and there but those terrorists are a minority whom taken over the stereotype. Every time I turn on the news in the morning they usually talk about crimes that happened either last night or yesterday, the perpetrators tend to be of all races.

Maleth
28-07-16, 07:38
Here is a different perspective of how IS started according to Russian TV. It basically blames its birth on the invasion of Iraq on the Bush (USA) and Blair (UK) coalition were Thousands of Civilians including Children have been starved and slained in a somehow cold and cruel and clumsy invation. (making no headlines in the Western media). Do they have a point or not?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTrmqWGTqxw

VMRO1893
28-07-16, 08:15
And how do you understand the assailants? How many from this assailants are settled in your country?

500 years of Ottoman Islamic rule taught us a thing or two about them

Maleth
28-07-16, 08:20
Sorry, head in the sand still. I have zero respect for the current Pope.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35892917

Tomenable
28-07-16, 09:06
Pope Francis during WYD in Cracow on priest killing: World is at war, but it's not a religious one

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/27/europe/france-church-attack-aftermath/index.html

"The world is at war because it has lost peace," he said.
"There is a war of interest, there is a war for money, a war for natural resources, a war to dominate people," he continued.
"Some might think it is war of religion. It is not. All religions want peace. Others want war."

================================

^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.

Northener
28-07-16, 09:22
Your suggestions for how to stop jihadist attacks in Europe? It seems western Europeans still do not understand the assailants and just how determined they are and just how long they can keep doing what they are doing.

I'am not against the use of intelligent force to stop this. But I dont't want to get trapped in the IS agenda. The 'pleasure' you can make them is to react as stucked by a bee, they are into a clash of civilizations, they want to make this Islam contra the West, crusaders etc.
Second I don't want to live in a police state, see Popper the open society and it's enemies.
We can cope this just like we did with the RAF, IRA etc etc.


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LABERIA
28-07-16, 10:40
500 years of Ottoman Islamic rule taught us a thing or two about them

Well, i hope you elaborate this connection between this Ottoman Islamic rule and this assailants. Also it will be interesting if you share with us what your nation has learn in this 500 years of Ottoman Islamic rule.

LABERIA
28-07-16, 11:00
I've meet a lot of American Muslims that are peaceful people. You can commonly see them all over the place in Seattle. Sure there are some bad guys here and there but those terrorists are a minority whom taken over the stereotype. Every time I turn on the news in the morning they usually talk about crimes that happened either last night or yesterday, the perpetrators tend to be of all races.

I agree with you. The problem is that i see people from Balkans and east Europe giving lessons to the westerners. This people consider this a great opportunity to promote their new ethnic identities and to hide some black spots in their history. Also this problem with Islam, is a great opportunity for an Orthodox Russia to continue their agenda. This is propaganda and has nothing to do with the problem that we are discussing here.

bicicleur
28-07-16, 11:00
Pope Francis during WYD in Cracow on priest killing: World is at war, but it's not a religious one

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/27/europe/france-church-attack-aftermath/index.html

"The world is at war because it has lost peace," he said.
"There is a war of interest, there is a war for money, a war for natural resources, a war to dominate people," he continued.
"Some might think it is war of religion. It is not. All religions want peace. Others want war."

================================

^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.

The pope might elaborate a bit more on what he says about the cause of war.
He does his very best to deny there is an ideological aspect of the war.
In some countries Muslims are taught to disrespect the 'infidels'.
They blame the 'infidels' for whatever goes wrong. They create hatred.
It is from these countries that the attackers and terrorists originate.
The attackers are psychologically unstable but a lot of others sympathise with them and trigger the actions of these attackers.
There are a lot of such countries.

bicicleur
28-07-16, 11:08
I'am not against the use of intelligent force to stop this. But I dont't want to get trapped in the IS agenda. The 'pleasure' you can make them is to react as stucked by a bee, they are into a clash of civilizations, they want to make this Islam contra the West, crusaders etc.
Second I don't want to live in a police state, see Popper the open society and it's enemies.
We can cope this just like we did with the RAF, IRA etc etc.


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this is more than RAF and IRA
this is a global movement of hate preachers
their ideologie is total destruction of western values

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 11:33
I just saw the Pope Francis speaking on BBC in relation to the priest killing.
Here we have a denier. ;)

Call from the grave:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQMNNjzo2s4

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 11:35
Well, the guy has a spiritual explanation for everything. I can't wait to go to church this Sunday to see what Pope Francis has in mind.

That would be impossible. You can't see inside of his head without to open it or use X-rays, and it would still be impossible because its' empty...

Have you heard of the Dodo bird?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Extinction


Like many animals that evolved in isolation from significant predators, the dodo was entirely fearless (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_tameness) of humans. This fearlessness and its inability to fly made the dodo easy prey for sailors.[87] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBBC2002-11-20-87)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Cultural_significance


The dodo's significance as one of the best-known extinct animals and its singular appearance led to its use in literature and popular culture as a symbol of an outdated concept or object, as in the expression "dead as a dodo (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dead_as_a_dodo)," which has come to mean unquestionably dead or obsolete. Similarly, the phrase "to go the way of the dodo (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/go_the_way_of_the_dodo)" means to become extinct or obsolete, to fall out of common usage or practice, or to become a thing of the past.[129] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFuller200213-129) "Dodo" is also a slang term for a stupid, dull-witted person, as it was supposedly stupid and easily caught.[130] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-130)[131] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-131)

The Western Europeans are something akin today. They have have not had wars or hardship since many decades ago, and they remain "fearless" of less civilized humans. Although, they won't be "dead as a Dodo" anytime soon, their religious leaders are already "Arch Dodo Priests" for all intents and purposes...

Maleth
28-07-16, 11:41
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzmO6RWy1v8

bicicleur
28-07-16, 12:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzmO6RWy1v8

it's a good synthesis of events, but it does not explain Muslim fundamentalism
it should be a lesson for the US and Europe never to trust any of these groups and never make them allies against whatever ennemy
the US made the mistake twice, first in Afghanistan against the Sovjet Union and 2nd by supporting some of these groups against Assad

bicicleur
28-07-16, 14:21
In general religions are accused to be hypocrite. I think Pope is very honest in explaining the very core of the problem. The wars always are made for economic interests, for markets. The ideologies serve only to hide this truth. If during the XX century ideologies, especially the communism, tried to eleminate the religions and to take their place, in this century in a world without ideologies it's the religion, especially Islam, who want to take this place and enter in politics. It's all about money.

there is an ideological aspect
what money can motivate someone to blow himself up with the purpose to make as many victims as possible?
there are of course some who try to manipulate all this for their personal gain, but the ideology is very wide spread
the ideology is not only with the suicide attackers themselves but also with a lot of sympathisers who motivate the suicide bombers

Angela
28-07-16, 16:40
The next person to post off topic material will get an infraction. The magic number is 10 I might remind some of you. I don't like acting like a cop during what is supposed to be a leisure pursuit, but I'll do it if I must.

Twilight
28-07-16, 16:47
That would be impossible. You can't see inside of his head without to open it or use X-rays, and it would still be impossible because its' empty...

Have you heard of the Dodo bird?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Extinction



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#Cultural_significance



The Western Europeans are something akin today. They have have not had wars or hardship since many decades ago, and they remain "fearless" of less civilized humans. Although, they won't be "dead as a Dodo" anytime soon, their religious leaders are already "Arch Dodo Priests" for all intents and purposes...

I really hope that my quote gets us back into an on topic discussion, fingers crossed
im not sure how a Dodo has to do with this thread.
A lot of Western European countries have been sending their armies to the Middle East including Francefor example. Not all those whom are Muslim can be call barbarians in a single brush stroke and neither are the Muslims in France where the attack happened. As a historical example, do all African Americans like watermelons?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
Anyways, I admire the Priest willing to risk their lives for their religion. Sending condolences to those killed in the Normandy church.

Milan
28-07-16, 17:23
there is an ideological aspect
what money can motivate someone to blow himself up with the purpose to make as many victims as possible?
there are of course some who try to manipulate all this for their personal gain, but the ideology is very wide spread
the ideology is not only with the suicide attackers themselves but also with a lot of sympathisers who motivate the suicide bombers
I agree with you,multiple times i have said that the problem is the ideology,anyone denying this is just delaying the problems or not want to see them.
Pope saying it is for interests see bellow,that is true,but any religion or call it ideology in this case is against war? some need history lessons there.
However this islamists showed up as very useful tool for political manipulation and gains used in order to benefit,unfortunately it backfires sometimes on the peaceful civilians.
Being said the one that support and fund this fundamentalism Wahabism,Salafi-Islam is Saudi and other gulf oil rich countries,weird there is no conflicts in their countries,they enjoy the wealth from oil they have and build their own laws,even beheading,cuting hands,among many other bizarre sharia laws does not disturb our notion of democracy and are good allies.

Petros Houhoulis
28-07-16, 17:56
I really hope that my quote gets us back into an on topic discussion, fingers crossed
im not sure how a Dodo has to do with this thread.
A lot of Western European countries have been sending their armies to the Middle East including Francefor example.

Yes, indeed, but you forgot to point out that the major point of departure has been the Iraq war of 2003, and not the presence of any western troops in any Muslim country. That was a monumental disaster for everyone except the Kurds.

Furthermore, what you fail to grasp is that the presence of Western troops in the Middle East or elsewhere does not always have negative consequences, and sometimes they are even invited. The worst recent genocide in Rwanda took place because the west - and especially Bill Clinton - refused to interfere (they were busy with Yugoslavia at the time, where the death toll was much smaller), not because it did. The greatest recent famine/genocide combo in Somalia was the result of the withdrawal of the U.S. American forces (Black Hawk down) not because the west interfered there. Other genocides of immense proportions where the west didn't mess with include the Bangladesh war of independence. Even in Iraq where a portion of the west bares a huge responsibility, the casualties as a result of direct action by western forces is smaller than the casualties of the regime of Saddam Hussein, although the overall death toll due to religious and tribal warfare is certainly much bigger.

On the other hand, many western military bases in the gulf states are there because those smaller Arab emirates are afraid of their larger neighbors, Saudi Arabia and Iran in particular. Few of you around here could recall that when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia found the opportunity to grab a small portion of disputed territory from another minor Arab neighbor.

Overall, the excuse that "The west is responsible for the conflicts in the Middle East" couldn't be further from the truth. Even the suggestion that the arms sales of western states to rich Arab states does not directly correlate to the bloodshed, since the bloodier recent genocide, that of Rwanda, materialized with machetes...

Don't play that leftist game with me. The causes of conflict in the Middle East (and elsewhere) have little or nothing to do with the west, no matter how much certain western states profit from them. Unless of course you want to legitimize the terror attacks in the eyes of the gullible... Nobody in this forum has gone to the crux of the matter of the real causes of conflicts.


Not all those whom are Muslim can be call barbarians in a single brush stroke and neither are the Muslims in France where the attack happened.

Islam, again, is not the direct cause of conflict. A look in the map would convince anybody that the reasons are once more correlated with geography rather than religion. The Muslim states of Central Asia are currently more peaceful than the Christian states of Africa or even Latin America. Islam is still, the religion which creates the most indirect causes of conflict, along with the Catholic church which comes a distant second.


As a historical example, do all African Americans like watermelons?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_intervention_against_ISIL
Anyways, I admire the Priest willing to risk their lives for their religion. Sending condolences to those killed in the Normandy church.

The priest had guts, but I guess that had to be expected from a man who lived though WWII or the aftermath of WWII. The millenials look like a lost cause (http://www.katholisches.info/2016/04/01/90-prozent-wuerden-zum-islam-konvertieren-wenn-der-is-kaeme-generation-ohne-ideale/), but I won't lose faith: Most U.S. kids had no experience in war prior to WWII, and yet they fought valiantly in the end...

Milan
28-07-16, 19:06
off topic.

Maleth
28-07-16, 19:07
it's a good synthesis of events, but it does not explain Muslim fundamentalism
it should be a lesson for the US and Europe never to trust any of these groups and never make them allies against whatever ennemy
the US made the mistake twice, first in Afghanistan against the Sovjet Union and 2nd by supporting some of these groups against Assad

More of a miscalculation of strategy I would say.

Yetos
28-07-16, 21:07
I agree with you. The problem is that i see people from Balkans and east Europe giving lessons to the westerners. This people consider this a great opportunity to promote their new ethnic identities and to hide some black spots in their history. Also this problem with Islam, is a great opportunity for an Orthodox Russia to continue their agenda. This is propaganda and has nothing to do with the problem that we are discussing here.
\

Do you agree that Pope must declare this priest a Saint?
a clear behead for religious reasons,
they made saints for less,


The hypocrisy of West, and christianity,
they made so many martyrs, and saints and so much they wrote about Greeks and Romans and pagans, even they found carnivorous tribes to make Saints the last centuries,
but are afraid to call saint or at least martyr this poor old priest,

Maleth
28-07-16, 21:14
\

Do you agree that Pope must declare this priest a Saint?
a clear behead for religious reasons,
they made saints for less,

I believe he would, but it is a long process. There need to be if not mistaken three miracles unexplained by science through his intersection (people involved praying to him) for the sainthood to go through. Even the body needs to be composed after a certain time after burial to prove saint hood. Something like that anyway.

VMRO1893
29-07-16, 01:45
Well, i hope you elaborate this connection between this Ottoman Islamic rule and this assailants. Also it will be interesting if you share with us what your nation has learn in this 500 years of Ottoman Islamic rule.

That these people only understand sheer brute force. In our case it was delivered by Russia in 1877 and then again by the Balkan Alliance in 1913.

Twilight
29-07-16, 06:49
Yes, indeed, but you forgot to point out that the major point of departure has been the Iraq war of 2003, and not the presence of any western troops in any Muslim country. That was a monumental disaster for everyone except the Kurds.

Furthermore, what you fail to grasp is that the presence of Western troops in the Middle East or elsewhere does not always have negative consequences, and sometimes they are even invited. The worst recent genocide in Rwanda took place because the west - and especially Bill Clinton - refused to interfere (they were busy with Yugoslavia at the time, where the death toll was much smaller), not because it did. The greatest recent famine/genocide combo in Somalia was the result of the withdrawal of the U.S. American forces (Black Hawk down) not because the west interfered there. Other genocides of immense proportions where the west didn't mess with include the Bangladesh war of independence. Even in Iraq where a portion of the west bares a huge responsibility, the casualties as a result of direct action by western forces is smaller than the casualties of the regime of Saddam Hussein, although the overall death toll due to religious and tribal warfare is certainly much bigger.

On the other hand, many western military bases in the gulf states are there because those smaller Arab emirates are afraid of their larger neighbors, Saudi Arabia and Iran in particular. Few of you around here could recall that when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Saudi Arabia found the opportunity to grab a small portion of disputed territory from another minor Arab neighbor.

Overall, the excuse that "The west is responsible for the conflicts in the Middle East" couldn't be further from the truth. Even the suggestion that the arms sales of western states to rich Arab states does not directly correlate to the bloodshed, since the bloodier recent genocide, that of Rwanda, materialized with machetes...

Don't play that leftist game with me. The causes of conflict in the Middle East (and elsewhere) have little or nothing to do with the west, no matter how much certain western states profit from them. Unless of course you want to legitimize the terror attacks in the eyes of the gullible... Nobody in this forum has gone to the crux of the matter of the real causes of conflicts.Islam, again, is not the direct cause of conflict. A look in the map would convince anybody that the reasons are once more correlated with geography rather than religion. The Muslim states of Central Asia are currently more peaceful than the Christian states of Africa or even Latin America. Islam is still, the religion which creates the most indirect causes of conflict, along with the Catholic church which comes a distant second.

The priest had guts, but I guess that had to be expected from a man who lived though WWII or the aftermath of WWII. The millenials look like a lost cause (http://www.katholisches.info/2016/04/01/90-prozent-wuerden-zum-islam-konvertieren-wenn-der-is-kaeme-generation-ohne-ideale/), but I won't lose faith: Most U.S. kids had no experience in war prior to WWII, and yet they fought valiantly in the end...

You may say that I'm a leftist but the fact remains, we are just talking about French Muslims and the incident at a Normandy Catholic Church. Your statements although agreeable, is off subject I'm afraid and is for another thread.

Tomenable
29-07-16, 15:23
deleted, it was fake

Northener
29-07-16, 16:23
this is more than RAF and IRA
this is a global movement of hate preachers
their ideologie is total destruction of western values

Of course different time different development.
The core thing is that in (Western) Europe that we have created, although never perfect, democracy, with as core thing:: How we can stand different views, religions, ideologies, without violence and without creating a tendency to wash out differences and dispute, or to create a false homogenity. That's political liberalism as set after 1848.

Populism on the contrary creates the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we". Closed minds. Can't stand differences.

These jihadist are no direct threat to our western society, to marginal. The indirect threat is more villain. Because this can mean a up heal of right wing populism. In the end is this the real threat to political liberalism.







The real





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Petros Houhoulis
29-07-16, 16:48
Of course different time different development.
The core thing is that in (Western) Europe that we have created, although never perfect, democracy, with the core thing:: How we can stand different views, religions, ideologies, without violence and without creating a tendency to wash out differences and dispute, or to create a false homogenity. Populism creates the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we".

The actual question is what makes others still fighting. There are already some very complex answers, which tend to have a common characteristic though. (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32548-Is-Youth-Bulge-a-Crucial-Determinant-of-Stability)


These jihadist are no direct threat to our western society, to marginal. The indirect threat is more villain. Because this can mean a up heal of right wing populism. In the end is this the real threat to political liberalism

What you fail to realize is that a large number of these terrorists tend to be career petty criminals who implode when they realize they shall never achieve anything in life. The current increase in terrorist attacks in Europe correlates directly with economic instability and decline. If terrorism accelerates economic instability and decline, the feedback could have significant consequences. Furthermore, those populists are not against other Europeans - at least for the moment - and their impact could be limited, still depending on economic performance. The weirdest paradox is that liberalism per se is not threatened so much by the right wing, but the left wing. Political correctness is a leftist trait, political irreverence is gradually becoming a right wing staple.


Of course different time different development.
The core thing is that in (Western) Europe that we have created, although never perfect, democracy, with as core thing:: How we can stand different views, religions, ideologies, without violence and without creating a tendency to wash out differences and dispute, or to create a false homogenity. That's political liberalism as set after 1848.

Populism on the contrary creates the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we". Closed minds. Can't stand differences.

Those who believe in the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we", closed minds, can't stand differences, tend to be recent imports to Europe, and not Europeans with deep roots in the continent. Even the older Muslim populations in Britain, Poland, Greece and elsewhere tend to be inclusive, or at least more liberal than recent arrivals. The recent European populists still align themselves against the imported intolerance rather than clashing with other liberals. This could of course get out of hand pretty quickly.


These jihadist are no direct threat to our western society, to marginal. The indirect threat is more villain. Because this can mean a up heal of right wing populism. In the end is this t

The real

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Northener
29-07-16, 17:41
"Furthermore, those populists are not against other Europeans - at least for the moment - and their impact could be limited, still depending on economic performance."

I must disappoint you these populist are strongly against other Europeans. The populist of Northwestern Europe are strongly opposed to Southern Europeans and label them as corrupt, lazy, not worth a single dime....and I could go on....

These things are not economic motivated but more 'cultural'. So economic performance doesn't mean that populism will be in decline

"Those who believe in the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we", closed minds, can't stand differences, tend to be recent imports to Europe, and not Europeans with deep roots in the continent. Even the older Muslim populations in Britain, Poland, Greece and elsewhere tend to be inclusive, or at least more liberal than recent arrivals. The recent European populists still align themselves against the imported intolerance rather than clashing with other liberals. This could of course get out of hand pretty quickly."

Not right either. Right wing populism has a strong support in working class and lower middle class Europeans.
And yes in immigrant circles there a parts which aren't quite liberal. That could be a threat when this comes close to turning against society and so on. Major problem but this can be solved. It's like the Indonesions in the Netherlands. After WW2 they settled in the Netherlands and in the seventies the second generation became partly very violent, now we have overcome this problem....

And yes I'am worried about the populist from Poland to Greece, in large parts of Europe the force of political liberalism is never been strong, so the force of populism and worse is a real threat in the future. That's the real threat within our society, Jihadism can be a threat, caused by Acts of terrorism, but in the end they are to marginal and self destructive to be a appealing force and threat for society as a whole.




















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bicicleur
29-07-16, 18:41
Of course different time different development.
The core thing is that in (Western) Europe that we have created, although never perfect, democracy, with as core thing:: How we can stand different views, religions, ideologies, without violence and without creating a tendency to wash out differences and dispute, or to create a false homogenity. That's political liberalism as set after 1848.

Populism on the contrary creates the idea of one folk, homogenity, a strong "we". Closed minds. Can't stand differences.

These jihadist are no direct threat to our western society, to marginal. The indirect threat is more villain. Because this can mean a up heal of right wing populism. In the end is this the real threat to political liberalism.







The real





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populism was a marginal phenomenon 20 years ago
it grows because EU institutions prove incompetent to deal with crisises and challenges which threaten Europe and the world, be it financial stability or immigration or terrorism or whatever
it is not a small nucleus of marginal racists any more, it is a large number of people who are not happy with the way Europe is mismanaged (or not managed)
and if you keep on ingnoring them, this movement will grow

Northener
29-07-16, 18:51
populism was a marginal phenomenon 20 years ago
it grows because EU institutions prove incompetent to deal with crisises and challenges which threaten Europe and the world, be it financial stability or immigration or terrorism or whatever
it is not a small nucleus of marginal racists any more, it is a large number of people who are not happy with the way Europe is mismanaged (or not managed)
and if you keep on ingnoring them, this movement will grow

I take them very seriously. But I'am strongly against their xenophobic and their anti political liberalism attitude. They present no real solutions. In the end they take no responsibility. UKIP figure went away after the Brexit. Wilders supported moderate right wing government. But not for long. I take them serious as a sign, but otherwise.....their solutions are the type of turn the backs against each other.


















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bicicleur
29-07-16, 19:44
I take them very seriously. But I'am strongly against their xenophobic and their anti political liberalism attitude. They present no real solutions. In the end they take no responsibility. UKIP figure went away after the Brexit. Wilders supported moderate right wing government. But not for long. I take them serious as a sign, but otherwise.....their solutions are the type of turn the backs against each other.


















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no you don't, otherwise you wouldn't label them as xenophobic and anti political liberalism
they will not present solutions, they are only unified by feeling submitted to a burocratic European political establishment
why did Brexit happen? do you realy believe 51 % of British are xenophobic?
it is because of frustration and the feeling of being powerless against a political correct burocracy in an ivory tower
if this burocracy is unable to communicate properly with these people, this whole burocracy should be dismantled

and on the other side, this whole European burocracy does not present real solutions either, it looks like they put the faith of Europe into the hands of people like Erdogan
Europe has created laws and principles it cannot defend itself, it relies on crooks who don't obey any law to do so

Northener
29-07-16, 19:49
If I didn't take them serious why should I see them as a major threat? Simple as that. That's doesn't mean that I have to agree with their ideology! Only when I'am the copy cat I would take them seriously? Is that what you are meaning or....?


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Maleth
29-07-16, 20:38
UKIP figure went away after the Brexit.

12 years getting paid by the EU institution to insult it non stop, then he disappears because he wants a life and offers no plan for the transition. They leave it to a silent but pro EU person Theresa May. The EU now will pay him also a pension.


















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Yetos
29-07-16, 21:34
XENOPHOBIC-FASIST or NATION TRAITOR-GLOBALIST-Immigrant lover

these words the last years are being used,

I simply want to ask you, and no need to reply,
who is most xenophobic or the oposite less xenophobic.

the 1rst is the one at Normandy

http://s.nbst.gr/files/1/2016/07/Kermiche5.jpg

the 2nd is the known one from Norway

http://air.news.gr/cov/br/breinik_b2.jpg


the 3rd is mentioned in this thread

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Le_Pen%2C_Marine-9586.jpg/220px-Le_Pen%2C_Marine-9586.jpg

the 4rth was at his biggest popularity last month

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Nigel_Farage_MEP_1%2C_Strasbourg_-_Diliff_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Nigel_Farage_MEP_1%2C_Strasbourg_-_Diliff_%28cropped%29.jpg

the 5th is known from PARIS

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20160318/engine/newego_LARGE_t_1101_54649609_type13145.jpg


NOW CAN YOU TELL ME WHICH IS MOST XENOPHOBIC OR MORE FASIST OR MOST DEMOCRATIC etc


Besides we know about him that he was victim of bulying, But did you heard who were the bullies?
and what kind of bulying he had?
http://im2ns5.27210.gr/sites/default/files/imagecache/620x320/article/2016/29/207016-screen_shot_2016-07-24_at_3.47.19_m.m..png

nobody says who the bullies were? and what kind of bullying.


AT LEAST
DO YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE AMONG THESE 2

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg/220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg

and

http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ISIS_alBaghdadi.jpg

Northener
29-07-16, 21:34
12 years getting paid by the EU institution to insult it non stop, then he disappears because he wants a life and offers no plan for the transition. They leave it to a silent but pro EU person Theresa May. The EU now will pay him also a pension.

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Sharp Maleth! I will beth he will refuse the EU pension ;)


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Garrick
29-07-16, 21:57
^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.

No.

Who who knows Islam knows that in Islam there is no national, for example Christian Arab is infidel as every non Muslim.

For Muslims only Muslim community exists (man or woman any nation can be Muslim)

and non Muslims, who can be
People of the Book (Christians, Jews and Sabians) and they have right to live in Islamic state under the rules of Sharia law and

others (atheists, polytheists etc.) who have no right and this destiny is worse.

...
It is not problem that Muslims are respected and their religion, they are humans as members of all other religions and atheists and agnostics.

It is important to open a genuine dialogue where potential problematic issues could be solved.

Pope Benedict wished such dialogue but he did not find interlocutors on other side.

The main reason is that nobody in Ulema has no authority to change the words given by God; Quran and Hadith are primary sources for Muslims and they guide their life and they are unchangeable.

What we can understand is that civilizations are different and it is not possible to make uniform people.

...
This thread is instructive, instead of empty words people will pay more attention to their safety, we can see change in that direction:

France, Cannes
Beach Bag Ban In Cannes Amid Terror Concerns

http://news.sky.com/story/beach-bag-ban-in-cannes-amid-terror-concerns-10515381
Germany, in Wacken

German festival bans backpacks and bags due to recent terror attacks

http://www.factmag.com/2016/07/28/german-festival-bans-backpacks-and-bags-due-to-recent-terror-attacks/

Maciamo
29-07-16, 23:26
Viktor Orban Hungarian PM's speech after the Nice terror attack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZdqAjDhVpo

Thanks for posting this. Victor Orban's speech reflects exactly my thoughts on Muslim immigration to Europe and the urgent necessity to act at the EU level. Every sentence of his speech was perfectly worded. His arguments are rational, pragmatic and no-nonsensical. I encourage all of you to watch this video if you haven't done it yet.

Dinarid
29-07-16, 23:38
I love the idea that this is a Middle Eastern problem only. In Sarajevo in 2008 the main LGBT group Organization Q had to cancel an event because of Muslims harassing them on the street. Bosnian Muslims regularly fly Turkish flags aside the traditional Bosnian coat of arms of King Tvrtko I (apparently they're too stupid to realize that he was quite clearly a Christian). In July 2015, during a football match against Israel the fans (who I do realize are not known for good behavior in any country) flew Palestinian flags and yelled "Free Palestine!". "Our" country is becoming increasingly Islamized- in the capital there are plenty of women wearing black tents already. The main Bosniak party espouses "Islamic democracy" is one of its values, which we can clearly see is an oxymoron.

Northener
29-07-16, 23:50
His arguments are rational, pragmatic and no-nonsensical.
.....is it rational, pragmatic ad no nonsense.... To call migrants poison?



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Maciamo
29-07-16, 23:53
it is what happened in Greece .. hence more and more people arrived untill the flow became realy uncontrollable .. fences were needed in the Balkans to stop people that Greece let through without any controll .. yet the fence builders were labelled 'racist'

I can't stand it when people are applying the 'racist' label on anti-Islamists and anti-terrorists. It's shocking how the trauma and guilt of WWII is still causing many Europeans, and particularly politicians, to adopt overly tolerant attitudes toward any kind of immigrant, even if they include the scum of the world, just so that they aren't labeled racists and associated with the Nazis. I think that Muslim immigrants understood this quite well and have made it their weapon of choice to bypass immigration regulations that would otherwise work against them.

The worst is when Europeans themselves have become so convinced that all humans are equal and good and deserve the same chance as themselves, that they see it as racist not to welcome the whole Third World with open arms and support them all of the tax payers' money. This vocal minority of Europeans, who are usually convinced far-left socialists and/or deeply Christian (ironically), will automatically label of racist anyone who is against unrestrained immigration. In other words, this ultra-leftist minority is distorting the anti-Semitic guilt of WWII to discourage and thwart any well meaning, but pragmatic and rational pacifist who is trying to protect the Western values by rejecting immigrants who do not conform to these very Western values. In my eyes those ultra-leftists are the best natural allies of Islamists and terrorists.
From now on, whenever you hear the word 'racist', you all should think carefully about what are the motivations of the person who uttered that accusation, and consider that they are using this emotionally charged term only to welcome Islamists to Europe, and with them a number of terrorists. Remember, those very people who use and abuse of the 'racist' label may be the ones who are responsible for letting terrorists in Europe in the first place. It's not exaggerated to say that such people may be indirectly complicit of terrorism. Anyone who wishes for fundamentalist Islamists to remain in Europe is complicit of terrorism.

Garrick
30-07-16, 00:02
Thanks for posting this. Victor Orban's speech reflects exactly my thoughts on Muslim immigration to Europe and the urgent necessity to act at the EU level. Every sentence of his speech was perfectly worded. His arguments are rational, pragmatic and no-nonsensical. I encourage all of you to watch this video if you haven't done it yet.

Yes, EU level is necessary, individual countries cannot solve it. We see problems in Greece, Malta, Italy, Macedonia, Serbia, Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria, Romania etc.

Good step in right direction are EU border forces, we can read:

EU parliament backs new border force

http://www.ekathimerini.com/210207/article/ekathimerini/news/eu-parliament-backs-new-border-force

Dinarid
30-07-16, 00:05
I can't stand it when people are applying the 'racist' label on anti-Islamists and anti-terrorists. It's shocking how the trauma and guilt of WWII is still causing many Europeans, and particularly politicians, to adopt overly tolerant attitudes toward any kind of immigrant, even if they include the scum of the world, just so that they aren't labeled racists and associated with the Nazis. I think that Muslim immigrants understood this quite well and have made it their weapon of choice to bypass immigration regulations that would otherwise work against them.

The worst is when Europeans themselves have become so convinced that all humans are equal and good and deserve the same chance as themselves, that they see it as racist not to welcome the whole Third World with open arms and support them all of the tax payers' money. This vocal minority of Europeans, who are usually convinced far-left socialists and/or deeply Christian (ironically), will automatically label of racist anyone who is against unrestrained immigration. In other words, this ultra-leftist minority is distorting the anti-Semitic guilt of WWII to discourage and thwart any well meaning, but pragmatic and rational pacifist who is trying to protect the Western values by rejecting immigrants who do not conform to these very Western values. In my eyes those ultra-leftists are the best natural allies of Islamists and terrorists.
From now on, whenever you hear the word 'racist', you all should think carefully about what are the motivations of the person who uttered that accusation, and consider that they are using this emotionally charged term only to welcome Islamists to Europe, and with them a number of terrorists. Remember, those very people who use and abuse of the 'racist' label may be the ones who are responsible for letting terrorists in Europe in the first place. It's not exaggerated to say that such people may be indirectly complicit of terrorism. Anyone who wishes for fundamentalist Islamists to remain in Europe is complicit of terrorism.
Every time there's a terrorist attack and a new thread is started, the accusations of "Islamophobia" due to focusing "disproportionately" on Muslims flow… every time…

Maciamo
30-07-16, 00:08
.....is it rational, pragmatic ad no nonsense.... To call migrants poison?


If they have no hope of integrating, are dirt poor, completely uneducated, hold strong Muslim values that are completely at odds with Western values, and support directly, indirectly or even morally any fundamentalist and/or terrorist organisation, then yes, it is completely rational and fair to call them poison. That unfortunately applies to a considerable portion of illegal immigrants from countries like Afghanistan, Syria or Somalia. The problem with mass influx of illegal immigrants is that they cannot be screened, and no background check can be done on them. If they come to Europe without ID document, or with fake documents (as many terrorists have done), they are all potentially a threat. Some would say that children aren't a threat, but children grow up and can become terrorists, as the recent Paris and Brussels attacks have shown (almost all the terrorists implicated with born and bred in Belgium or France from immigrant families).

If you doubt anything I have written above you need a serious reality check. The hate of Muslims toward Westerners is visceral and not just found among a minority of fundamentalists. I have been to (non-touristy parts of) Egypt and Palestine before 9/11 and Muslim children threw (mandarin-sized) stones at me when I was peacefully walking in the streets seeing that I was a Westerner. If children carry such natural hate for Westerners before they can even read the Koran and are ready to act on it without provocation, imagine what their parents must have told them. Now that's what the word 'racism' is supposed to describe: children too young to understand religion who throw stones on people who look different from them. Not wanting those children coming to throw stones at you in your country isn't racism. It's common sense and self-protection.

Tomenable
30-07-16, 01:36
This Syrian girl has so much more courage than all of these young healthy men fleeing to Europe instead of fighting vs. ISIS:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32562-Meet-a-Syrian-girl-who-came-from-Aleppo-to-WYD-in-Cracow?p=485952&viewfull=1#post485952

She lives in Aleppo - a city that has been a battlefield since 2012...

Twilight
30-07-16, 01:43
This young Syrian girl has so much more courage than all of these young healthy men coming to Europe from the MENA regions:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32562-Meet-a-Syrian-girl-who-came-from-Aleppo-to-WYD-in-Cracow?p=485952&viewfull=1#post485952 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32562-Meet-a-Syrian-girl-who-came-from-Aleppo-to-WYD-in-Cracow)

She lives in Aleppo - a city that is a battlefield since 2012...

This is unfair, the defenceless such as her should find safety in Europe, while men capable to fight should stay and fight vs. ISIS.

Perhaps Border patrol could do this policy. Men could be stopped and recruited into an army regiment while their wife's and "unready to fight" children get mentally screen checked; especially to figure out if the woman believes in Shira law. If at least some of the defenseless Muslims pass thorough psychological inspection, and let them through, wouldn't that illegitimate the extreme left's cause?

For the Muslim boys ready to fight, I suppose they could get throughly screamed also before joining a regiment.

Coming from an extremist left environment, I feel like we need to make known and proved that racism and equality isn't the issue. I feel like the psychologists will do the job in exposing the real troublemakers and separating them from the friendly pedestrian from the street.

Tomenable
30-07-16, 01:59
More of Syrian pilgrims speak at WYD (in English):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32562-Meet-a-Syrian-girl-who-came-from-Aleppo-to-WYD-in-Cracow?p=485957&viewfull=1#post485957

LeBrok
30-07-16, 04:04
And yes I'am worried about the populist from Poland to Greece, in large parts of Europe the force of political liberalism is never been strong, so the force of populism and worse is a real threat in the future. That's the real threat within our society, Jihadism can be a threat, caused by Acts of terrorism, but in the end they are to marginal and self destructive to be a appealing force and threat for society as a whole.
Very well said Northerner, I agree whole heatedly.

LeBrok
30-07-16, 04:08
XENOPHOBIC-FASIST or NATION TRAITOR-GLOBALIST-Immigrant lover

these words the last years are being used,

I simply want to ask you, and no need to reply,
who is most xenophobic or the oposite less xenophobic.

the 1rst is the one at Normandy

http://s.nbst.gr/files/1/2016/07/Kermiche5.jpg

the 2nd is the known one from Norway

http://air.news.gr/cov/br/breinik_b2.jpg


the 3rd is mentioned in this thread

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Le_Pen%2C_Marine-9586.jpg/220px-Le_Pen%2C_Marine-9586.jpg

the 4rth was at his biggest popularity last month

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Nigel_Farage_MEP_1%2C_Strasbourg_-_Diliff_%28cropped%29.jpg/220px-Nigel_Farage_MEP_1%2C_Strasbourg_-_Diliff_%28cropped%29.jpg

the 5th is known from PARIS

http://content-mcdn.ethnos.gr/filesystem/images/20160318/engine/newego_LARGE_t_1101_54649609_type13145.jpg


NOW CAN YOU TELL ME WHICH IS MOST XENOPHOBIC OR MORE FASIST OR MOST DEMOCRATIC etc


Besides we know about him that he was victim of bulying, But did you heard who were the bullies?
and what kind of bulying he had?
http://im2ns5.27210.gr/sites/default/files/imagecache/620x320/article/2016/29/207016-screen_shot_2016-07-24_at_3.47.19_m.m..png

nobody says who the bullies were? and what kind of bullying.


AT LEAST
DO YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE AMONG THESE 2

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg/220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H1216-0500-002%2C_Adolf_Hitler.jpg

and

http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ISIS_alBaghdadi.jpg
I agree, they all are super bullies.

LeBrok
30-07-16, 04:41
deleted, it was fake So you posted something face believing it was true? Hmmmm.....

LeBrok
30-07-16, 06:22
Anyone who wishes for fundamentalist Islamists to remain in Europe is complicit of terrorism.Often is not the clean slate to determine, but I said many times we should be tolerant to tolerant people and intolerant to intolerant ones.
It always baffled me why conservative Muslim with his wife dressed in burka can get European or American citizenship?! On other hand many terrorists come from moderate muslim families.
We should put most emphasis and resources on fighting ideological war against radical Imams (mostly from Saudi Arabia), Madrasas and hatful preaching on Internet.

LeBrok
30-07-16, 06:31
If they have no hope of integrating, are dirt poor, completely uneducated, hold strong Muslim values that are completely at odds with Western values, and support directly, indirectly or even morally any fundamentalist and/or terrorist organisation, then yes, it is completely rational and fair to call them poison. That unfortunately applies to a considerable portion of illegal immigrants from countries like Afghanistan, Syria or Somalia. The problem with mass influx of illegal immigrants is that they cannot be screened, and no background check can be done on them. If they come to Europe without ID document, or with fake documents (as many terrorists have done), they are all potentially a threat. Some would say that children aren't a threat, but children grow up and can become terrorists, as the recent Paris and Brussels attacks have shown (almost all the terrorists implicated with born and bred in Belgium or France from immigrant families).

If you doubt anything I have written above you need a serious reality check. The hate of Muslims toward Westerners is visceral and not just found among a minority of fundamentalists. I have been to (non-touristy parts of) Egypt and Palestine before 9/11 and Muslim children threw (mandarin-sized) stones at me when I was peacefully walking in the streets seeing that I was a Westerner. If children carry such natural hate for Westerners before they can even read the Koran and are ready to act on it without provocation, imagine what their parents must have told them. Now that's what the word 'racism' is supposed to describe: children too young to understand religion who throw stones on people who look different from them. Not wanting those children coming to throw stones at you in your country isn't racism. It's common sense and self-protection.Well said, but still is it right to call all immigrants a poison?

Maciamo
30-07-16, 07:45
Well said, but still is it right to call all immigrants a poison?

Mass illegal immigration as seen with the Syrian refugee crisis probably what he was referring to as a poison. The problem is that you can't distinguish good people from bad people when there is no background check, no visa application, and often no ID document. The very fact that you can't know who these people are is poisoning our attitude toward them, their hopes or integrating, and therefore also both our and their future.

It's always important to make a clear distinction between illegal and legal immigrants. Maybe that is what you were referring to when you said all immigrants. In this kind of discussion, most people mean all illegal immigrants, and particularly illegal Muslim immigrants, as they have the double added threat of failed integration and terrorism compared to non-Muslim immigrants. That's just a fact. Non-religious East Asians, Hindu and Sikh Indians and Christian Africans all integrate much better in European society than Muslims.

gyms
30-07-16, 10:28
My Chat with Ingrid Carlqvist- Oh Sweden!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEsa0dBBJOo#t=964.7427054 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEsa0dBBJOo#t=964.7427054)

We discuss a broad range of issues dealing with Sweden's current reality, as shaped by stifling political correctness, pathological virtue signalling, and breathtakingly lax open border immigration policies.

Maciamo
30-07-16, 10:41
Perhaps Border patrol could do this policy. Men could be stopped and recruited into an army regiment while their wife's and "unready to fight" children get mentally screen checked; especially to figure out if the woman believes in Shira law. If at least some of the defenseless Muslims pass thorough psychological inspection, and let them through, wouldn't that illegitimate the extreme left's cause?

For the Muslim boys ready to fight, I suppose they could get throughly screamed also before joining a regiment.

Coming from an extremist left environment, I feel like we need to make known and proved that racism and equality isn't the issue. I feel like the psychologists will do the job in exposing the real troublemakers and separating them from the friendly pedestrian from the street.

Actually I don't think that basic psychological evaluations would be much use in identifying potential terrorists. Those that committed the attacks in Paris and Brussels were well organised, had fake passports and travelled to Syria and back without being bothered by the authorities. The one who escaped from the Paris attack and was later caught in Brussels managed to slip away from anti-terrorists squads surrounding the house where he was hiding in Molenbeek. Clearly they are clever and stable enough to lie at an immigration interview about their religious beliefs and values, not to mention about their name and origins. As long as there will be constant threats from such people, it is simply too risky to allow any Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants into Europe. I don't see any other way but to tightly close the borders and send back all those who have already come. This alone will be tremendously expensive, but much cheaper in the long run than letting them stay.

Maciamo
30-07-16, 13:06
We haven't really discussed the situation of Christian, Druze and Jewish Syrian refugees yet. They make up 15 to 20% of the Syrian population. Unlike Muslims they do not pose the same threat of terrorism and do not have the high risk of not integrating due to their religion, so I would not object to them coming to Europe as refugees, at least until the situation improves in Syria. I don't care much about Christians, even in my own family, so I think this shows quite a bit of tolerance and compassion on my part to be ready to accept Christian refugees.

The question is how do you sort refugees by religion? If the know that only Muslims won't be accepted, they will lie and say they are Christian or Druze. They would need to take a test to prove their knowledge of the religion they claim to follow. But imagine how time consuming that would be to test millions of refugees.

Syrian Jews only represent less than 1% of the Syrian population. However I don't see why they wouldn't choose to go to neighboring Israel or why Israel would not welcome them, as the country was created as a safe haven for Jews worldwide.

bicicleur
30-07-16, 14:13
Actually I don't think that basic psychological evaluations would be much use in identifying potential terrorists. Those that committed the attacks in Paris and Brussels were well organised, had fake passports and travelled to Syria and back without being bothered by the authorities. The one who escaped from the Paris attack and was later caught in Brussels managed to slip away from anti-terrorists squads surrounding the house where he was hiding in Molenbeek. Clearly they are clever and stable enough to lie at an immigration interview about their religious beliefs and values, not to mention about their name and origins. As long as there will be constant threats from such people, it is simply too risky to allow any Muslim refugees and illegal immigrants into Europe. I don't see any other way but to tightly close the borders and send back all those who have already come. This alone will be tremendously expensive, but much cheaper in the long run than letting them stay.

they are very well organized
they can hide away for long time
many have been arrested, but few weapons have been found, these weapons are still stached away somewhere else
everything points in the direction of a big group of sympathisers who offer logistical help

Twilight
30-07-16, 23:11
We haven't really discussed the situation of Christian, Druze and Jewish Syrian refugees yet. They make up 15 to 20% of the Syrian population. Unlike Muslims they do not pose the same threat of terrorism and do not have the high risk of not integrating due to their religion, so I would not object to them coming to Europe as refugees, at least until the situation improves in Syria. I don't care much about Christians, even in my own family, so I think this shows quite a bit of tolerance and compassion on my part to be ready to accept Christian refugees.

The question is how do you sort refugees by religion? If the know that only Muslims won't be accepted, they will lie and say they are Christian or Druze. They would need to take a test to prove their knowledge of the religion they claim to follow. But imagine how time consuming that would be to test millions of refugees.

Syrian Jews only represent less than 1% of the Syrian population. However I don't see why they wouldn't choose to go to neighboring Israel or why Israel would not welcome them, as the country was created as a safe haven for Jews worldwide.

Thats unfortunate, well I suppose in that case we could work them into a trance by having them work 40 days with little sleep or some other means. If the refugees see a person disquised as a priest (with arm our tucked in his cloak) once in trance, are they going to throw rocks at the priest, look at his in at least some disgust or are they going to bow down and welcome him in open arms?

If the refugee shows distaste for the priest, could we death penalize them?

Maleth
31-07-16, 16:19
Often is not the clean slate to determine, but I said many times we should be tolerant to tolerant people and intolerant to intolerant ones.
It always baffled me why conservative Muslim with his wife dressed in burka can get European or American citizenship?! On other hand many terrorists come from moderate muslim families.
We should put most emphasis and resources on fighting ideological war against radical Imams (mostly from Saudi Arabia), Madrasas and hatful preaching on Internet.

Indeed, well said http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/694947/French-town-refuses-to-give-Muslim-burial-to-ISIS-killers-that-murdered-priest-on-altar

Serena
08-08-16, 14:00
"Egypt, Tunisia and Turkey are among the economies shaped by the tourist industry. In the wake of a terror incident, some countries impose a travel ban on their nationals, recommending travel plans to be delayed or cancelled if they are planned for potentially dangerous areas. This of course impacts the tourism industry negatively, discourages foreign investments and inhibits growth or sends property prices down."

https://tranio.com/world/analytics/the-impact-of-terrorism-on-tourist-dependant-property-markets_5169/ (https://tranio.com/world/analytics/the-impact-of-terrorism-on-tourist-dependant-property-markets_5169/)

Dinarid
14-08-16, 00:14
The general worldview of the Middle East, as sponsored by the UN and EU, is that the main oppressors are the Israelis, and the main victims are the Palestinian Arabs. So of course other groups in Syria just don't matter. Any group in the Middle East can be victims as long as they are predominately Muslims. Christians and the handful of Jews left simply don't matter.

Northener
15-08-16, 14:47
@Dinarid may be your world view is an example of 'Balkanization from above' a seen by Andrej Grybacic as ancient, ethnic hatred which leads to a process of chauvinistic fragmentation....


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Tomenable
15-08-16, 17:33
OECD safest countries in the world ranking:

http://www.countryranker.com/safest-countries-with-the-highest-personal-security/

FRA violence against women in the EU survey:

http://fra.europa.eu/en/publications-and-resources/data-and-maps/survey-data-explorer-violence-against-women-survey

Safest country to visit according to British Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/20/16/335EBC8100000578-3549983-image-a-71_1461167305796.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/62/11/13/z19993442Q,Bezpieczne-kierunki-rekomendowane-przez-Brytyjskie.jpg

[now I'm waiting until Wanderlust comes and starts his typical rant]

Angela
15-08-16, 19:04
Yeah, I guess it's pretty safe in certain countries unless you're the wrong race, or religion, or maybe even shade of white.

It helps if you have a totally homogeneous population too; none of the messy problems that come with having to come in contact with homeless, desperately poor, unskilled refugees etc. when you're stuck out of the way in some remote corner of Europe.

Then, of course, exporting a huge percentage of your poor young men, the kind that commit most crimes, helps as well. Whatever crimes they commit will swell the percentages of their host countries, not their home countries.

Is this what you spend all your time doing? I mean, do you spend all your time pouring over statistics, genetics papers etc. to try to put your country, or perhaps your ethnicity into a good light as you define it? It looks an awful lot like insecurity. If you are convinced of your "worth", it shouldn't matter a d*** what other countries or groups think of you.

Just my two cents.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country or ethnicity; I'm proud of mine too. I love when people share their culture with me, as I try to share mine with them.

It's just that I think it's as important to see the warts as it is to see the good points. Every group has them.

It's also very important not to constantly be drawing comparisons to try to show your superiority to others. If some cultural manifestation is superior, it's usually pretty obvious. People don't need to be hammered over the head with it. They also resent it, and that resentment makes them all the more willing to point out the areas where your country or people might be wanting. They all are, you know...wanting in one way or another.

Tomenable
15-08-16, 22:48
It just shows that Japan and Poland have the best immigration policies. But according to data published by EASO, Italy, Denmark, Austria, the UK, Norway, Iceland, Hungary, Greece and Liechtenstein have not accepted any refugees so far:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiadomosci.wp.pl%2Fkat%2C1041267%2C title%2C11-krajow-europejskich-nie-przyjelo-uchodzcow%2Cwid%2C18463224%2Cwiadomosc.html%3Ftica id%3D1178de

From the source linked above:


11 European countries did not accept refugees

Of the 32 European countries that have declared their acceptance of immigrants from the Middle East and Africa, 11 have not yet let in a single person. Not a single immigrant has been accepted so far by Denmark, Austria, Great Britain, Hungary, Norway, Italy, Greece, Iceland, Slovakia, Poland and Liechtenstein - according to data from the European Support Office for Asylum (EASO).

Angela, do you have anything to say concerning the fact that Italy also doesn't accept any refugees?

Or are we going to pretend that only Hungary and Poland are "evil" ???

As you can see a lot of Western European countries also do not want to have any "rapefugees".

And how many refugees have been taken in by the United States ???

After all it was U.S. policy of blasting the hell out of the Middle East since 2001/2003 that caused this.

As long as Saddam Hussein ruled in Iraq, it was relatively peaceful there.

Vallicanus
15-08-16, 23:42
It just shows that Japan and Poland have the best immigration policies. But according to data published by EASO, Italy, Denmark, Austria, the UK, Norway, Iceland, Hungary, Greece and Liechtenstein have not accepted any refugees so far:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwiadomosci.wp.pl%2Fkat%2C1041267%2C title%2C11-krajow-europejskich-nie-przyjelo-uchodzcow%2Cwid%2C18463224%2Cwiadomosc.html%3Ftica id%3D1178de

From the source linked above:



Angela, do you have anything to say concerning the fact that Italy also doesn't accept any refugees?

Or are we going to pretend that only Hungary and Poland are "evil" ???

As you can see a lot of Western European countries also do not want to have any "rapefugees".

And how many refugees have been taken in by the United States ???

After all it was U.S. policy of blasting the hell out of the Middle East since 2001/2003 that caused this.

As long as Saddam Hussein ruled in Iraq, it was relatively peaceful there.

Italy and Greece both have tens of thousands of refugees.

There isn't a mountain comune in Tuscany that does not have refugees, mostly Subsaharan Africans and not people fleeing Syria or Iraq.
What are you talking about?

Visit these countries before you spout off.

Angela
16-08-16, 00:24
The world may be coming to an end. Vallicanus and I agree about something, although he exaggerates in order to get in his customary dig(s) at Italy (Italians). No, Vallicanus, not every mountain commune in Tuscany is affected.

(Someday I'd really like to know how many of the internet warriors inhabiting anthrofora are foreigners in Italy upset about how they're treated. I would bet a good number. Then if you add in the Stormfront Spanish Nazis and the ones from eastern Europe, all of this vitriol would be accounted for.)

Which migrants go to which countries depends on geography, currents in the Mediterranean, etc.. The "Syrian" refugees have been going through Turkey and then into Greece and then onward from there.

The migrants going into Italy are mostly from Africa. Italy gets thousands of them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-arrivals-rocket-in-italy-amid-warnings-turkey-deal-could-force-migrants-on-more-a6959491.html

https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/euobs-media/b8c5ec40cc91ef73e85366d177fb77c2.jpg

Have you never heard of the problems we have in Lampedusa? Scroll through the pictures. Are you dealing with that in Poland?

http://www.dw.com/en/refugees-protest-in-lampedusa-causing-headaches-for-locals/g-19251342

They freaking protest because we don't have their kind of food. Now they're taking over whole piazzas, destroying the tourism that is the livelihood of most people on the island.

We have whole pockets of our cities that are like outposts of Morocco or Nigeria or wherever, but we also have Filipinos and people from God knows where. On youtube, if you google LaSpezia, video after video of some rapper from North Africa pops up. In the schools in the city center sometimes half the students are foreign and come in speaking a foreign language. In Reggio Emilia you can't leave the train station if you're a woman without getting accosted by sexual comments, even if you're old enough to be a mother to them. In the outskirts of certain cities you have to drive through crowds of prostitutes from these areas openly soliciting. I don't know how many eastern Europeans are still among them because I try to avoid those roads, but there used to be a lot of them, or did you not know that?

As for gypsies, we tried providing free housing as well as other help, but it all gets trashed, the children aren't sent to school, and on and on. In certain cities the authorities tried giving them free train fare to get them back home to Romania or wherever, but they take the money, go home for a visit, and then come back. I don't know if anyone has a handle on exactly how many of these people there are, but they've ruined whole sections of some cities.

Does no real news of the world reach you in Lithuania, or whatever? Try to inform yourself before you speak.

We've done enough...more than enough.

Dinarid
17-08-16, 00:44
@Dinarid may be your world view is an example of 'Balkanization from above' a seen by Andrej Grybacic as ancient, ethnic hatred which leads to a process of chauvinistic fragmentation....


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You just love trying to provoke me don't you? Nice to see you've stalked me all the way over here ;) Sadly, few people on here share your view that limiting Islamic immigration or calling attention to Islamic imperialism is racist. Stay angry my friend ;)

oriental
17-08-16, 01:15
Yesterday out of curiosity I watched this video on youtube. I remember watching the "planes" smashing into the Towers on TV and was shocked. But certain things about how the GWB administration handled the debris that made me think a bit. A major crime had been perpetrated but the White House rushed to remove the debris as if to remove all the evidence. There was no effort to store debris in warehouses to analyse what happened which one would expect as is done with an air crash.

This is the video I watched which was produced by a British engineer with no other intent than to get at the truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKq2K2dh6k

The planes seemed to be photoshopped to cover a rounded puck -like flying object striking the Towers. There were reports that Israelis were aware of the upcoming disaster as five Israelis were jumping up and down on the roof of a building with a perfect view of the Towers being struck as they filmed the event. Case of Agent Provocateuring? They were sent home immediately. No Israelis were in the Towers as well. They knew something was afoot. The Britsh engineer suggests it was an 'inside' job to tar the Muslims to get at their oil. It was the Bushes who started the Iraq Wars and used Depleted Uranium as tank ordnance. DU when pulverised on striking objects produces dust which can alter DNA and produce babies with defects which was the case in Iraq.

That puck-like could have had a metallic shell with loads of gasoline - a flying molotov cocktail.

Any wonder for the rage in the Middle east?

Dinarid
17-08-16, 01:44
Yesterday out of curiosity watched this video on youtube. I remember watching the "planes" smashing into the towards on TV and was shocked. But certain things about how the GWB administration handled the debris that made me think a bit. A major crime had een perpetrated but the White House rushed to remove the debris as if to remove all the evidence. There was no effort to store debris in warehouses to analyse what happened which one would expect as is done with an air crash.

This is the video I watched which was produced by a British engineer with no other intent than to get at the truth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKq2K2dh6k

The planes seemed to be photoshopped to cover a rounded puck -like flying object striking the Towers. There were reports that Israelis were aware of the upcoming disaster as five Israelis were jumping up and down on the roof of a building with a perfect view of the Towers being struck as they filmed the event. Case of Agent Provocateuring? They were sent home immediately. No Israelis were in the Towers as well. They knew something was afoot. The Britsh engineer suggests it was an 'inside' job to tar the Muslims to get at their oil. It was the Bushes who started the Iraq Wars and used Depleted Uranium as tank ordnance. DU when pulverised on striking objects produces dust which can alter DNA and produce babies with defects which was the case in Iraq.

Any wonder for the rage in the Middle east?
Oh good lord. For people like you, Muslims never do anything wrong whatsoever. You're basically over here spreading taqiyya (Islamic propaganda) using 9/11 conspiracy theories, which have no place here at all. These theories are old news. No Israelis were in the World Trade Center because there probably aren't that many Israelis in America period. If you mean Jews, which is what some people claim, then you are just wrong. There were clearly Jewish victims who died in the towers. But nice try whitewashing Islam using the most pathetic, laughable tactics imaginable. Even people like northerner don't go that far with their ridiculous, emotionally-charged Islamophilia.

Angela
17-08-16, 02:55
This 9/11 conspiracy theory is total, unadulterated crap! I went to so many funerals of people who died that day that I don't even want to think about it. I talked to dozens and dozens and dozens of people who SAW IT, in person, in addition to watching it myself in real time on local television. I don't have to rely on some stupid video made by some mentally deficient and dishonest morons.

You people have no freaking idea what you're talking about and every time you give it head room you are spitting on the graves of all those who died and the families who grieve to this day.

If you want to engage in conspiracy theories in some drug induced stupor then find one where thousands of people weren't there to see it with their own eyes.

Oh, and find one where the people who did it don't claim it proudly.

If I were to say what I really think about this I'd have to ban myself...

Dinarid
17-08-16, 03:14
This 9/11 conspiracy theory is total, unadulterated crap! I went to so many funerals of people who died that day that I don't even want to think about it. I talked to dozens and dozens and dozens of people who SAW IT; in person, in addition to watching it myself in real time on local television. I don't have to rely on some stupid video by some mentally deficient moron.

You people have no freaking idea what you're talking about and every time you give it head room, you are spitting on the graves of all those who died and the families who grieve to this day.

If you want to engage in conspiracy theories in some drug induced stupor then find one where thousands of people weren't there to see it with their own eyes.

Oh, and find one where the people who did it don't claim it proudly.

If I were to say what I really think about this I'd have to ban myself...
He pretends that he doesn't have an agenda and pretends to be seeking knowledge independently and coming to his own conclusion, but his agenda is pretty obvious. Exactly as I said earlier: evil Israelis. Many people already think of them as mass murderers, land thieves, conspirators, etc. So actually "oriental" is just using a very tired idea. The post looks very suspicious and quite unusual anyway.

Angela
17-08-16, 03:28
A big chunk of those who died, other than the first responders who went into the building rather than trying to exit it, were the employees of a firm which leased the top floors of Tower 1, a firm called Cantor-Fitzgerald.

A good number of the employees were themselves Jews; a lot of the others were Irish and Italian Catholics...a New York firm. Anyone who could so impugn the religion of many of those poor people is beneath contempt. Lutnick, whose brother died up there, pledged that the firm would survive, and that it would take care of all the families of the deceased. They did that by getting the firm back on its feet in days...a herculean effort. They are fine men and women.

Any one who so discredits them and their ethnicity and their religion should be ashamed of himself.

Maleth
17-08-16, 09:09
Two Imams gunned down In Queens. There seems not to be much news about the perpetrator who is suspected to have carried out the crime. It seemed we got much more information with previous similar perpetrators after 3 days of the crime scene, but not much on this one. Just have to wait for more details.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-york-imam-suspect_us_57b243dbe4b0863b028469b8

Maleth
17-08-16, 12:48
Christian Lebanese shot by Neighbor in Tulsa

http://kfor.com/2016/08/16/more-information-released-on-the-death-of-tulsa-man-killed-by-neighbor-who-called-him-dirty-arab/

Angela
17-08-16, 14:04
Two Imams gunned down In Queens. There seems not to be much news about the perpetrator who is suspected to have carried out the crime. It seemed we got much more information with previous similar perpetrators after 3 days of the crime scene, but not much on this one. Just have to wait for more details.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-york-imam-suspect_us_57b243dbe4b0863b028469b8

On the suspect being held:
http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/nypd-oscar-morel-held-in-killing-of-imam-and-aide-1.12177644

His name is Oscar Morel, Hispanic of some sort, and also charged with an unrelated hit and run. He's lawyered up and not talking, so the police will have to figure out why he did it.

Maleth
18-08-16, 09:58
On the suspect being held:
http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/nypd-oscar-morel-held-in-killing-of-imam-and-aide-1.12177644

His name is Oscar Morel, Hispanic of some sort, and also charged with an unrelated hit and run. He's lawyered up and not talking, so the police will have to figure out why he did it.

Thats a more detailed coverage Angela thanks. There is more news here http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/17/nyregion/oscar-morel-queens-imam-shootings.html?_r=0. Probably we will be hearing more about it in the future.

Northener
19-08-16, 15:06
You just love trying to provoke me don't you? Nice to see you've stalked me all the way over here ;) Sadly, few people on here share your view that limiting Islamic immigration or calling attention to Islamic imperialism is racist. Stay angry my friend ;)

No not driven by anger or stalking ambitions, and I prefer not to argue ad hominem (simple fact: I don't know you in person). Just reactions on your points of view. Nothing more nothing less. The way you describe your location says a lot...Chauvinistic fragmentation, which is very virulent in you region, is hopefully not a phenomena which spreads around in Europe....but from Putin till Wilders and from Le Pen till Trump I'am not so sure about this. To me that would be a loss. Political liberalism (=standing differences in a democratic way) is a preferred kind of civilization to me. Balkanization is the opposite...it's ultimate "we" against "them".

Dinarid
19-08-16, 23:49
No not driven by anger or stalking ambitions, and I prefer not to argue ad hominem (simple fact: I don't know you in person). Just reactions on your points of view. Nothing more nothing less. The way you describe your location says a lot...Chauvinistic fragmentation, which is very virulent in you region, is hopefully not a phenomena which spreads around in Europe....but from Putin till Wilders and from Le Pen till Trump I'am not so sure about this. To me that would be a loss. Political liberalism (=standing differences in a democratic way) is a preferred kind of civilization to me. Balkanization is the opposite...it's ultimate "we" against "them".
Right, how dare I oppose Islamic imperialism. Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs never asked to live under Islamic occupation, but apparently we're "hateful Islamophobes" for being against it. No, I don't have a very rosy view of Islam, in large part because a good portion of its adherents are virulently opposed to the liberal values you espouse.

Northener
20-08-16, 11:05
Right, how dare I oppose Islamic imperialism. Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs never asked to live under Islamic occupation, but apparently we're "hateful Islamophobes" for being against it. No, I don't have a very rosy view of Islam, in large part because a good portion of its adherents are virulently opposed to the liberal values you espouse.

Let's make it clear: I'am opposed to every "fundamentalistic" thinking either in Islamic, Christian or Secular (Facism, Nationalism, Communism for example) form. The basic rule I accept is the right to differ, 'to opt out'. Real integration in modern society is the underling of the view that I/we defend the right to differ even if he or she stands for very different views of mine. Fundamentalist don't accept this. That's why I want to diminish their influence....

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 14:23
I agree with you totally but in this era you must take sides even if you have to hold your nose in disgust.

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 15:02
To use a crude but telling British expression these fundamentalists of every stripe "need to get their leg over".

Isn't it remarkable how that most of these inadequate people have unhealthy or twisted attitudes towards women?

Northener
20-08-16, 15:08
I agree with you totally but in this era you must take sides even if you have to hold your nose in disgust.

This is taking side:

Must I wait until Balkanization is on the front of my nose (what may be already is the case.....)?
The "Balkan solution" is draw a line, a new border and then throw "the others" beyond this border, ethnic cleansing. It's also the IS solution. Purification. They can't stand differences.
I'am no kind of hippy, who denies tensions, political liberalism is a product of every day struggle, t's never been a rose garden. It's been realized through very, very tense controversies (sometimes bloodshed...against the Nazi's for example). It's always muddling trough. Never perfect. But in the end it's preferable to keep freedom (of thinking) upright!
And yes I count my blessings living in such circumstances, but I never take this for granted.

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 15:29
In the EU there is a disconnect between a blind, smug, rather incompetent and greedy elite and the millions of ordinary citizens who see social and religious fragmentation and the ever looming threat of terrorism.

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 15:32
What solutions do this political elite have for military defence, terrorism, mass migration, economic splits between north and south Europe, the rights of women and so on?

Northener
20-08-16, 15:40
In the EU there is a disconnect between a blind, smug, rather incompetent and greedy elite and the millions of ordinary citizens who see social and religious fragmentation and the ever looming threat of terrorism.

"a blind, smug, rather incompetent and greedy elite" the biggest framer of this all: Nagel Farrage is now taking an "EU Pension" (spell the word) left his party and country in chaos. Who's is in fact incompetent and greedy?

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 16:16
Farage is a chancer but the EU leaders are in positions of real power and dangerously inept given Europe's position even pre-Brexit.

Remind me, in what year decades ago was the EU budget legally signed off by auditors?

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 16:18
Britain is not in chaos.

Teresa May, a Remain supporter like myself, is firmly in control as PM.

Vallicanus
20-08-16, 16:25
Back on topic, I'm in favour of greater surveillance of possible terrorist activity on the net and on close-circuit cameras on our streets.

For those who see this as an infringement of their freedoms, please show me where the freedom exists if you don't know if you'll return unharmed from a shopping trip or a ride on public transport.

Oasis
10-09-16, 21:53
Two Imams gunned down In Queens. There seems not to be much news about the perpetrator who is suspected to have carried out the crime. It seemed we got much more information with previous similar perpetrators after 3 days of the crime scene, but not much on this one. Just have to wait for more details.



the new york police caught the guy very recently. the investigation continues but it is very likely hate crime.

Oasis
10-09-16, 22:14
Right, how dare I oppose Islamic imperialism. Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs never asked to live under Islamic occupation, but apparently we're "hateful Islamophobes" for being against it. No, I don't have a very rosy view of Islam, in large part because a good portion of its adherents are virulently opposed to the liberal values you espouse.
if so, then why did the greeks, serbs and croats lived peacefully under Islamic Ottoman rule for centuries?

Yetos
10-09-16, 22:42
if so, then why did the greeks, serbs and croats live peacefully under Islamic Ottoman rule for centuries?

what?
who says so?

Oasis
10-09-16, 23:45
what?
who says so?
all the greeks, serbs and croatians I met so far. Besides, the history is a witness to that fact.

Yetos
11-09-16, 00:27
all the greeks, serbs and croatians I met so far. Besides, the history is a witness to that fact.

unification before the common enemy.
simply as you post it, i thought you ment that Islamic Ottoman empire was a bless land,

Oasis
13-09-16, 03:27
Yesterday out of curiosity I watched this video on youtube. I remember watching the "planes" smashing into the Towers on TV and was shocked. But certain things about how the GWB administration handled the debris that made me think a bit. A major crime had been perpetrated but the White House rushed to remove the debris as if to remove all the evidence. There was no effort to store debris in warehouses to analyse what happened which one would expect as is done with an air crash.

This is the video I watched which was produced by a British engineer with no other intent than to get at the truth.


Good point. some people just can't handle the plain truth.
How come there is not a thread here where we discuss the 9/11 with "evidence"? Or was I not able to find it? I looked for it, at least!

oriental
13-09-16, 04:13
The original towers belonged to Orthodox Canadian Jews Reichman Brothers of Toronto. It was designed by a Japanes architect or Japanes American architect. On wind tunnel tests they would collapse. I think he solved the problem by having a stiff outer shell with only 3/8" beams. They were flimsy if might say. These are the two negatives against the towers. Owned by foreigners and flimsy. Who knows. I don't recall any airplanes parts found among the rubble. Maybe I am wrong.

Angela
13-09-16, 04:15
Excuse me, are you under the misapprehension that this is a site dedicated to every half baked conspiracy theory in the world? Did someone make you the content Nazi?

Actually, someone did raise the issue. I personally told him it was bunk, concocted by people who know absolutely nothing about what went on that day.

I do know.

I watched it as it happened, in real time.

I know personally and have spoken at great length with people who were in those towers and adjoining buildings, or who watched the crashes, the impact, and the fall of the towers from a block away, who helped with rescue efforts and who sifted through the evidence for years.

Can you say the same?

People who peddle this ****, and especially barely a day after the Memorial should be ashamed of themselves, and much more so if they are U.S. citizens.

Oasis
13-09-16, 04:26
The original towers belonged to Orthodox Canadian Jews Reichman Brothers of Toronto. It was designed by a Japanes architect or Japanes American architect. On wind tunnel tests they would collapse. I think he solved the problem by having a stiff outer shell with only 3/8" beams. They were flimsy if might say. These are the two negatives against the towers. Owned by foreigners and flimsy. Who knows. I don't recall any airplanes parts found among the rubble. Maybe I am wrong.
they found only one flight engine which didn't belong to any of the alleged planes crashed into the towers!

LeBrok
13-09-16, 04:58
they found only one flight engine which didn't belong to any of the alleged planes crashed into the towers!End this stupidity! You are welcome to open your own website to post your delusions.

Angela
19-09-16, 15:55
Well, this is a first for me and undoubtedly all Americans: an alert on my phone to be on the look out for an Afghan (naturalized U.S. citizen) who is a person of interest in multiple bombings in New York and New Jersey.

Luckily no deaths, but the bomb in Chelsea injured 29 people. This is after a Somali was arrested for stabbing multiple people at a mall in the midwest.

I suppose this is the new normal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzMDP90qW0E

The FBI and the NYPD have moved very quickly, but it's after the fact, after all.

Everyone is trying very hard to present a united front here, but I, for one, wonder if this ever would have happened if DeBlasio hadn't shut down the surveillance unit which operated not only in New York but in New Jersey, where we have a fairly large Muslim community.

bicicleur
20-09-16, 08:29
these conspiracies happen behind doors, you won't notice very much of it on the streets till you find the bomb

first reaction of DeBlasio wasn't looking in the direction of terror, very correct and decent of him

LeBrok
20-09-16, 15:52
these conspiracies happen behind doors, you won't notice very much of it on the streets till you find the bomb

first reaction of DeBlasio wasn't looking in the direction of terror, very correct and decent of himI thought, they said it was an act of terror but also said that there was no connection to islamic terrorism at that time, till yesterday.

Angela
20-09-16, 16:52
It depends whom you were listening to, and at what time.

DiBlasio, the Mayor, initially was quoted as saying it was an "intentional act", but not terrorism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tm9XMrio98

If you really listen carefully, he was just saying that there was no evidence as of yet that it was terrorism. He got hammered because it was clear to everybody from the pictures in the media of an un-exploded pressure cooker bomb that was found nearby that it was a bombing. Added to that, just a day before pipe bombs were exploded right next door in New Jersey at a military event, and there was a stabbing of multiple people at a Wisconsin mall of a man talking about Islam.

Cuomo, the governor, tried to give him cover by saying that, obviously, setting off bombs is terrorism, but we don't know the kind of terrorism that is behind it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tm9XMrio98

I think public officials have to carefully parse out their words so as not to jump the gun, but also so as not to look ridiculous by being too careful. They probably should say something to the effect that there is no proof as of yet about the motivation behind the bombing, but that given recent events there will, of course, be an investigation as to whether there is a link to radical Muslim extremism.

Otherwise, people are going to start believing that the media and the more far left politicians try desperately to distort the facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tm9XMrio98

Angela
21-09-16, 02:26
We now discover that the perpetrator traveled back and forth to Afghanistan three or four times and changed totally after these visits, growing a beard, wearing traditional clothes, praying multiple times a day, railing against homosexuals and decadent American society.

His behavior was so alarming that two years ago his father called the FBI to say he was a terrorist. At that time the police had been called to the house because he had assaulted his mother and stabbed his father. Perhaps it was because they wouldn't go along with his now radical fundamentalist views?

Unbelievable that the FBI didn't keep an eye on him. This is just like San Bernardino.

Aaron1981
21-09-16, 15:21
Surveillance, and online monitoring is key. These western Liberal-Left groups are trying to eliminate such measures in the name of freedom and defense of the guilty (see the Left-Liberal Trudeau government in Canada). I am of the belief that if you are law abiding on the internet (not a terrorist or kiddie porn enthusiast), you should have nothing to fear. I don't fear anything, so bring on the surveillance, the authorities will find the guilty parties soon enough.

Angela
21-09-16, 16:44
These people need a dose of reality. This freaking idiot said there was no homosexuality in Afghanistan?

Not only is there homosexuality, but it's not between consenting adult men; it's pedophilia. If he wants to blow somebody up he should have started with them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi

They should be forced to read "The Kite Runner", too and watch the movie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kite_Runner

These are the wages of ignorance.

@Aaron
You're right about the surveillance. Maybe we could start with following up on the actual damn "leads". Does someone have to wear a sign across his forehead announcing his intentions? Police "profile" all the time. There's a whole specialty called "profiling". You can't do law enforcement without it. It's gotten a bad name because of racial politics. If someone travels back and forth to these countries, that should send up a red flag. If someone starts spouting anti-American and pro-ISIS propaganda, that should send up a red flag. If someone reports a person for being a suspected "terrorist", that should send up a red flag. All of that creates a very worrisome "profile". If they need to hire more FBI agents to keep track of these people, then do it. This is so frustrating because our law enforcement people know how to do the job, they're just being prevented from doing it, as any of them would tell you.

Unfortunately, the bus may have already left the station in terms of "internet" use. With the "dark net" now, a lot of these conversations will be untraceable.

bicicleur
21-09-16, 17:50
have you any idea how many people like that there are in America ?
here they say they monitor every retruned Jihady fighter
but when you know how many of them there are in Belgium, and when you know what manpower is required to controll someone 24/24 and 7/7 you simply know it is impossible

polticians want us to beleive everything is under controll and minimalise the problem

Angela
21-09-16, 19:17
Enough so that the FBI says it can't monitor them all. I think I remember an estimate of more than 1000.

Comrade DeBlasio has an opinion piece out co-authored by the mayors of Paris and London that New York City as well as the other two cities should welcome Syrian refugees.

What kind of Syrian refugees? I'll host Christian refugees myself, or help get them hosted, but we're not allowed to say that. Maybe he means host people for whom no records exist? No thank-you.

He's a man blinded by ideology.

Read it and weep:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/20/opinion/our-immigrants-our-strength.html

Could someone please tell me what skills illiterate farmers from Central America bring to New York City?

bicicleur
22-09-16, 15:29
Everytime I hear/read this kind of comments I get mad.
Ok, people in distress who lost their homes and have nowhere else to go should be helped.
But claiming that these kind of refugees are a blessing to the country that recieves them is in the best case a demonstration of the stupdity of the person who makes this claim.
Even the representatives of the German employers claimed Syrian refugees would help German economy.
Now a year later it is proven how dificult it is to integrate these people and that most of them lack the proper skills and attitudes.
Why did they claim this then? To please Angela Merkel, or are they just plain stupid?

LABERIA
22-09-16, 15:37
Enough so that the FBI says it can't monitor them all. I think I remember an estimate of more than 1000.

Comrade DeBlasio has an opinion piece out co-authored by the mayors of Paris and London that New York City as well as the other two cities should welcome Syrian refugees.

What kind of Syrian refugees? I'll host Christian refugees myself, or help get them hosted, but we're not allowed to say that. Maybe he means host people for whom no records exist? No thank-you.

He's a man blinded by ideology.

Read it and weep:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/20/opinion/our-immigrants-our-strength.html

Could someone please tell me what skills illiterate farmers from Central America bring to New York City?

They can produce good tomatoes and potatoes at Central Park.

draj
07-10-16, 23:06
They can produce good tomatoes and potatoes at Central Park.

brutal but funny..

Dinarid
09-10-16, 03:50
if so, then why did the greeks, serbs and croats lived peacefully under Islamic Ottoman rule for centuries?
How dare you suggest such a thing. The very reason Bosniaks are Muslims is because the Turks treated non-Muslims as second-class citizens, and conversion entailed many benefits. I love the idea of people coming on here as apologists for Islamic imperialism. So tell me, are you a liberal so infected by Islamophilia that you defend Islamic imperialism, or are you here spreading taqiyya?

Dinarid
10-10-16, 00:10
It is clear that Oasis and oriental are here spreading taqiyya, nothing more.