Meet a Syrian girl who came from Aleppo to WYD in Cracow

Tomenable

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More of Syrian pilgrims speak at WYD (in English):

 
Wait a minute, wasn't it you who said that it is not a religion but ethnicity which makes people bad?
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Tomenable


^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.
On one hand I'm thrilled that you can analyze things and change your mind, on other hand your analytical skills took you "from rain to the gutter" using polish proverb.


And let's go on a limb and assume that you like Syrian Christians the most from all the available ethnic Syrian Arabs. Could you tell us how many Christian Syrians Poland helped?
Only 35 of the 160 Christian Syrians who were given asylum in Poland last year are still in the country, but the foundation which brought them is still trying to get more.
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/238115,Majority-of-Christian-Syrian-refugees-left-Poland
Wow, most of them preferred to live in "muslim" Germany I suppose, full of islamist attacks. I'm sure they felt very welcomed by polish christian brothers and sisters. I could assume, by your previous posts, that it could have been you, who kicked them out for being cowards escaping ISL. Unlike you, I truly feel sorry for these Syrians. Peace out.
 
Maybe I shouldn't have come on here when it's so late. I must not be understanding this correctly.

Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are? Is everyone aware of the fact that Christian boys are being literally crucified for not renouncing Christianity and accepting Islam, and that Christian girls are being raped and forced to be sex slaves for ISIL members, all in contravention of the Quran, I might add, which exempts "People of the Book" from this kind of treatment?

They are cowards for not staying when they are so hugely outnumbered, have no arms, and they are facing genocide? Are we supposed to take these opinions seriously?

Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe. But then, "race", which isn't really "race", but is more about the "relative" darkness of one's pigmentation, is the most important factor in some European countries, and all the rationalization and excuses in the world won't disguise that fact.

It's really and truly sick making.

You must have made these poor people very welcome, indeed, if they all left for somewhere else as quickly as they could.
 
LeBrok,

Non-Muslim Syrians are not ethnic Arabs. They are descended from Pre-Arabic population of Syria, without any Arabic admixture.

There are genetic differences beteween Muslims and Non-Muslims in the Middle East. Muslims have more of non-local admixtures.

Angela,

If refugees leave another country and go to Germany, they do this for economic reasons (Germany offers higher welfare checks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0

 
Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are?

According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.

Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe.

I agree that non-Muslims should be welcomed to Europe as refugees, at least until ISIS is defeated and they can live again in Syria without fearing to be killed, tortured, raped or forcefully converted.
 
Maciamo said:
According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.

That was in 2011.

Now we have 2016 - and I am sure that the percentage is lower. Many have been killed or forced to leave Syria.
 
According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.



I agree that non-Muslims should be welcomed to Europe as refugees, at least until ISIS is defeated and they can live again in Syria without fearing to be killed, tortured, raped or forcefully converted.

The same goes for the Yezidi and Shia Muslims who get the same treatment by ISIS.
But I've always said :
- on condition there is no alternative for these people elsewhere
- no European citizenship, they should go back home as soon as it is possible
if these people don't return home in the end, that will mean a kind of victory for ISIS
- only basic acomodation
- they should look for a job by which they could pay better acomodation for themselves
- those that don't get a job should be obliged to do usefull community services
- Europe should be actively involved in the war against ISIS

What happened now is that Europe is not atracting so much the real refugees but rather economic migrants.
Europe is trapped by their own rules made up by some politicians in some ivory tower.
The rules should be completely reviewed.
 
That was in 2011.

Now we have 2016 - and I am sure that the percentage is lower. Many have been killed or forced to leave Syria.

Exactly. I was hoping to get an estimate of the percentage of non-Muslims among the refugees.
 
Maybe I shouldn't have come on here when it's so late. I must not be understanding this correctly.

Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are? Is everyone aware of the fact that Christian boys are being literally crucified for not renouncing Christianity and accepting Islam, and that Christian girls are being raped and forced to be sex slaves for ISIL members, all in contravention of the Quran, I might add, which exempts "People of the Book" from this kind of treatment?

They are cowards for not staying when they are so hugely outnumbered, have no arms, and they are facing genocide? Are we supposed to take these opinions seriously?

Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe. But then, "race", which isn't really "race", but is more about the "relative" darkness of one's pigmentation, is the most important factor in some European countries, and all the rationalization and excuses in the world won't disguise that fact.

It's really and truly sick making.

You must have made these poor people very welcome, indeed, if they all left for somewhere else as quickly as they could.

Angela I think you are referring to IS radicals (who stem from the Sunni group) since they have taken over in many regions. Christians were not the only ones persecuted under this radical group but Sunnis who did not comply to their extremism, Shias and other groups (mostly have the Muslim religion). Under Asad (Shia) Christians were highly respected, and pope John Paul stated that too.


but on the other hand Asad has been known to be a tyrant against Sunnis (But which Sunnis). The west has been very adamant on his removal for commiting crimes against humanity, While Russia seemed to prefer working with him as they though it would be a better option. This is something that both the West and Russia do not agree on. Who is right and who is wrong? Do we know all the details? Its very complex.
 
LeBrok,

Non-Muslim Syrians are not ethnic Arabs. They are descended from Pre-Arabic population of Syria, without any Arabic admixture.

There are genetic differences beteween Muslims and Non-Muslims in the Middle East. Muslims have more of non-local admixtures.

Angela,

If refugees leave another country and go to Germany, they do this for economic reasons (Germany offers higher welfare checks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0


Are you specializing in non-supported statements lately? This isn't the thread to discuss the matter in detail, but your statement is untrue. Technically, only people from the Arabian peninsula are Arabs. Everybody in the Middle East is the result of a complex series of admixtures. When the Muslim forces arrived in the Levant, much of the population was Christian. There was ongoing pressure to convert, and most did just that. There is no consensus as to how many new people arrived from Arabia and Yemen during that period or in subsequent ones, but how different could they have been given that the Bronze Age Levantine sample we have clustered near Saudis? Are there some differences? Yes, there are, especially among certain Palestinians like the people of Gaza, who have recent Egyptian admixture, and the Muslims also absorbed some SSA from the Arab slave trade, but look up the Lebanese Christians versus the Lebanese Muslims in Admixture runs. The differences are minor. That's what the founder of Poland's religion looked like, and Mary and all the Apostles, like it or lump it.

Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?

I happen to do some volunteer work for Catholic Charities, who have tried to get visas for Christians from the Levant. They are model immigrants in my experience: grateful to be here and very hard working. Do they need to be on welfare in the beginning? Yes, they do, but they are helped to get jobs. Sometimes the work is far below what they used to do at home, often because their English skills are not adequate, or their credentials are not transferable, and so the jobs are not very high paying. That means they still need food stamps in some cases, and Medicaid, which is free medical care, and a bit of a housing allowance after the initial period when parishioners house them in their own homes in some cases, but they're not sitting around refusing to work, With the proper guidance and support they are making a go of it. Their children seem to be making a great transition. Personally, I find them warm, friendly, and generous even with the little they have in their modest apartments, far more congenial than some people in European countries, to be brutally honest.

Really, the differences between America and Europe are profound in some matters. Thank goodness this is where my father brought me, if we had to leave.
 
Angela,

Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?

Most of them lack even basic education, a huge percent are illiterate. Only 4% are well-educated.

Even if they wanted to work, there would be no demand for so many unskilled workers in Europe.

====================

This is also the case in Germany:

https://archive.is/VLptV

Refugee influx to cost Germany 25 to 55 billion euros annually: study

An influx of a million refugees could cost Germany up to 55 billion euros ($60 billion) a year, according to a study by a prominent economic research center.

One assumption in the estimate is that 30 percent of refugees would return to their homeland, and another 20 percent would have trouble finding a job [very optimistic assumptions!]

The study found that while refugees may increase demand and economic output, thereby contributing to growth, the social welfare expenditures would also increase and counteract overall gains in prosperity. (...)

Economically, they are a net loss.
 
Technically, only people from the Arabian peninsula are Arabs. Everybody in the Middle East is the result of a complex series of admixtures. When the Muslim forces arrived in the Levant, much of the population was Christian. There was ongoing pressure to convert, and most did just that. There is no consensus as to how many new people arrived from Arabia and Yemen during that period or in subsequent ones, but how different could they have been given that the Bronze Age Levantine sample we have clustered near Saudis? Are there some differences? Yes, there are, especially among certain Palestinians like the people of Gaza, who have recent Egyptian admixture, and the Muslims also absorbed some SSA from the Arab slave trade, but look up the Lebanese Christians versus the Lebanese Muslims in Admixture runs. The differences are minor. That's what the founder of Poland's religion looked like, and Mary and all the Apostles, like it or lump it.

This is some guessing but ..

The Christian Syrians claim to descend from the old Assyrians, who were Semites, hence probably E-M123.

Haplogroup-E-M123.gif


Arabs are J1-P58.

Haplogroup-J1.gif


Arabic Muslims out of Arabia first conquered Mesopotamia, then North-Africa and then Iran.
North-African J1 is J1-P58, it arrived there with Muslim conquest, in several stages (it has been conquered by different subsequent Arabic Muslim dynasties). In some areas they replaced or outnumbered the original Berber population.
I don't know, but Mesopotamian J1 might very well be J1-P58 too, arriving with Arabic Muslim conquest.
In Iran it is not the case, not much J1-P58 over there. It was not much of a conquest, more a revolution. The Iranians were not happy under Sassanid rule which had become corrupt over time and they wellcomed the Arab Muslim 'conquerors'.

There are also quite some J1-P58 in Ethiopia, but this was a pre-Islamic expansion from Yemen.

There is also some non-Arabic J1-P58 but not much.
 
Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?

What Tomenable says is correct.
There is the language barrier and 17 % of the refugees registered in Antwerp are completley illiterate.
They can get extra schooling for free, that is provided, but in many cases they both lack the qualifications and the attitude.
And, I admit, if an employer can chose between an autochtone and an allochtone with the same qualifications, he'll chose the autochtone because he still trusts the autochtone more. In Belgium to get a job you need to be trusted by the employer because once you have the job, it is very expensive for the employer to sack you (unlike in America).

Some even dare to claim we need these immigrants, they will pay the pensions of our population which becomes older and older.
When I hear such claims I become mad.

I gave me opinion above.
These people shouldn't get European citizenship. They should return home as soon as it is possible. They'll feel much better over there.
 
Get your facts straight, gentlemen...

Angela,



Most of them lack even basic education, a huge percent are illiterate. Only 4% are well-educated.

Even if they wanted to work, there would be no demand for so many unskilled workers in Europe.

====================

This is also the case in Germany:

https://archive.is/VLptV



Economically, they are a net loss.

Get your facts straight before posting, gentlemen...

I'm not talking about the whole flood of migrants to Europe recently from Afghanistan, North Africa, SubSaharan Africa and on and on. Your thread was about Christian Syrians. We can extend it to Christian Levantines. I WORK with these people. Who told you that Christian Levantines, or even Muslim Levantines, are illiterate and have no job skills? Who is feeding you this information, Tomenable? You really have to start thinking for yourself; you're too intelligent for this.

The people for whom I help to process immigration matters are, or used to be, small shop keepers, carpenters, electricians, teachers, nurses, the occasional doctor or business manager even. The official statistics support that this isn't some fluke.

Back in the 1980s, literacy among the Lebanese as a whole was 80%, and it went up from there. Among the Christian Lebanese it was even higher. There were 16 colleges and universities in that small country, many of them Catholic. The American University of Beirut was a great place. I know people who went there.
http://countrystudies.us/lebanon/66.htm

What drags down the statistics in the Levant is the literacy rate among Muslim WOMEN, which is a huge problem, I agree, but even so, it's not like rural, southern Morocco, for goodness sakes'.

The story is similar in Syria...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

"Christians (as well as the few remaining Jews in the country) engage in every aspect of Syrian life. Following in the traditions of Paul, who practiced his preaching and ministry in themarketplace, Syrian Christians are participants in the economy, the academic, scientific, engineering, arts, and intellectual life, entertainment, and the Politics of Syria. Many Syrian Christians are public sector and private sector managers and directors, while some are local administrators, members of Parliament, and ministers in the government. "

Look at the statistics here. Literacy is in the high 90s in Syria.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/syria_statistics.html

You are being fed totally inaccurate information, as are a lot of Europeans. As I've said before, in certain parts of Europe, the more homogeneous ones especially, there is absolutely no real knowledge of people from other parts of the world, so prejudice, rumor, and innuendo are substituted.

This is a Christian Lebanese, by the way, by ancestry anyway...big, bad, scary, Ralph Nader:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

He was way too liberal for me every to vote for, but an admirable and accomplished man, nonetheless.

headshot_nader.jpg


The much, much, beloved Danny Thomas, whose St. Jude's Hospital is an absolute wonder.

"As a "starving actor", Thomas had made a vow: If he found success, he would open a shrine dedicated to St. Jude Thaddeus, the patron saint of hopeless causes. Thomas never forgot his promise to St. Jude, and after becoming a successful actor in the early 1950s, his wife joined him and began traveling the United States to help raise funds to build his dream - St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital.[16] He fervently believed “no child should die in the dawn of life.”[17"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Thomas

Danny-Thomas-Success-Quotes.jpg



The Danny Thomas Show and Make Room For Daddy were constantly in re-runs when I was growing up. It still occasionally shows up;whenever it was on, I encouraged my children to watch it: funny, heart-warming, just the kind of things I wanted to influence my children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txJRv-tv8ok&list=PLbKOcc4q-5p4VYeWH7BKHVJzFu3gC5eGW&index=30
 
They are model immigrants in my experience: grateful to be here and very hard working. Do they need to be on welfare in the beginning? Yes, they do, but they are helped to get jobs. Sometimes the work is far below what they used to do at home, often because their English skills are not adequate, or their credentials are not transferable, and so the jobs are not very high paying. That means they still need food stamps in some cases, and Medicaid, which is free medical care, and a bit of a housing allowance after the initial period when parishioners house them in their own homes in some cases, but they're not sitting around refusing to work, With the proper guidance and support they are making a go of it. Their children seem to be making a great transition. Personally, I find them warm, friendly, and generous even with the little they have in their modest apartments, far more congenial than some people in European countries, to be brutally honest.

Really, the differences between America and Europe are profound in some matters. Thank goodness this is where my father brought me, if we had to leave.

I guess in Syria, the Christians are among the best educated.

In my posts I was talking about immigrants in Europe during last 2 years as a whole.

If we would treat Christian Syrians different from other immigrants in Belgium there would be a lot of protesters claiming the immigration system is 'racist'.
 
I guess in Syria, the Christians are among the best educated.

In my posts I was talking about immigrants in Europe during last 2 years as a whole.

If we would treat Christian Syrians different from other immigrants in Belgium there would be a lot of protesters claiming the immigration system is 'racist'.

Check the statistics from Syria again, Bicicleur. Those numbers in the link I provided were for all Syrians, and the percentage is up in the high 90s.

In Lebanon, the number is pulled down a bit because there are some tribal people in the south who are included.

While it's generally true that Christian Levantines are more educated on the whole than Muslim Levantines, the literacy numbers for Levantine Muslims are very high. Beirut was called a little Paris for a very good reason; it was a very Cosmopolitan place. There is just a vast misinformation campaign going on, in my opinion.

You cannot lump all Levantines together, but neither can you lump all Muslims into one basket either. Other than language and religion, a southern Moroccan migrant couldn't be more different from an Alawite Syrian. There are an awful lot of migrants in Europe claiming to be "Syrian", when in reality they only have fake Syrian passports.

As to standards for immigration, I'm not advocating that all Christian Levantines be let in, and no Muslim Levantines. However, ISIS wants to exterminate the Christians (and the Yezidis, who may very well be mostly illiterate), and that is not the case for Muslim Levantines, although when you're talking about such horrors going on, how do you decide which is more horrible? I think the fact that in detention centers and migration centers some of the Muslim applicants try to kill the Christians should tell the authorities a great deal.

The fact is, though, that the U.S. government does screen potential immigrants because it doesn't want to admit Muslim extremists. When you're looking at the paperwork for Christian Levantines, and you see testimonials from their parish priests and parish records indicating that they've been Christian for as far back as the records go, you can be pretty sure they're not Muslim extremists.

Many of the other "Syrian" and generally "Middle Eastern" applicants for asylum, they can't provide any documentation whatsoever. Why is that?

As for the genetics:

Ydna is one ancestor out of hundreds, or thousands or ten thousands. It may have little to do with overall genetic similarity. Sixty to seventy percent of the Italians in my father's area seem to belong to downstream clades of S116; the vast majority of those are some clade of U-152. That doesn't make them Alsatians.

If we must speak of YDna, is this outdated then?
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lebychr.png?w=500

Syrian Christian data is harder to come by, but there is more on Lebanese Christians. Admixture analyses and PCAs are only one way to look at genetic similarity, but please look at the following. Are they identical? No, but they are very, very similar, and there is even overlap.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gNGfQ-Y3gNM/UTEX3FRvWiI/AAAAAAAAIqk/f6spz9zjY4I/s1600/journal.pgen.1003316.g002.png

Also as to Syrian Christians, the nomenclature is tricky...there is a difference between Syrian Christians and Christians of Syria. One of the links I posted above explains the differences. There are Syrian Christians in India. They are very different from the Syrian Christians of Syria.

Some more well known Levantine Americans.

General Abizaid:
220px-John_Abizaid.jpg


Nicholas Naseem:
http://www.thoughtleaders.world/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Taleb_mug-600x600-c-top.jpg

Casey Kassim:
http://www.technologytell.com/entertainment/files/2014/06/Screen-shot-2014-06-16-at-12.49.53-AM.png

Only half, but...Steve Jobs:
http://slacfl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Steve-Jobs.jpg
 
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@ Angela

I was quoting numbers among immigrants as a whole, not specifically Syrian or Christian immigrants, there are no seperate data about that, and I'm sure it is the same about the numbers Tomenable quoted.

In Belgium we have politically correct laws, they don't allow to differentiate according to religion, the immigration administration has to apply the same criteria for all of them.
One of the reasons I hate political correctness.

Hungary, and maybe Poland too, are not so politically correct, they said they don't want Muslim immigrants, only secular or Christian, which fits better the autochtones inhabitants of their country.
I guess that is the reason why so many political correct people say East European people are racist.
I guess you allready noticed that in this forum too.

And something else, you say many Muslim women are illiterate, but the large majority of the immigrants are young men, which you'd expect to be the most literate.

And yes screening is not done as thorough as in America.
Many of the immigrants come without papers and lie about their origin and age.
The immigrants are assumed to tell the truth. It is the immigration officer who has to prove them wrong.
The immigration officers have only limited time to decide, and if they reject they have to motivate exactly why.
I explain you Belgian law. It does not mean I agree with that.

Angela Merkel says 'wir schaffen dass'
 

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