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Tomenable
30-07-16, 01:23
She came to WYD in Cracow, and - unbelievable - she wants to go back to Syria after WYD:

Interview in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOfZrs85MpA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOfZrs85MpA

Tomenable
30-07-16, 01:28
Aleppo is a battlefield since 2012:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–present)

And she wants to go back... ???

Tomenable
30-07-16, 01:57
More of Syrian pilgrims speak at WYD (in English):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCrLUDmA-wE

LeBrok
30-07-16, 04:59
Wait a minute, wasn't it you who said that it is not a religion but ethnicity which makes people bad?

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Tomenable http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=485694#post485694)

^ Indeed, it seems that the problem is not religion, but ethnicity. After all, only Muslim Arabs (rather than all Muslims) do this.

So the problem is specifically with Arabs. But people don't say this openly because they are afraid of being accused of racism.

On one hand I'm thrilled that you can analyze things and change your mind, on other hand your analytical skills took you "from rain to the gutter" using polish proverb.


And let's go on a limb and assume that you like Syrian Christians the most from all the available ethnic Syrian Arabs. Could you tell us how many Christian Syrians Poland helped?


Only 35 of the 160 Christian Syrians who were given asylum in Poland last year are still in the country, but the foundation which brought them is still trying to get more.
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/238115,Majority-of-Christian-Syrian-refugees-left-Poland
Wow, most of them preferred to live in "muslim" Germany I suppose, full of islamist attacks. I'm sure they felt very welcomed by polish christian brothers and sisters. I could assume, by your previous posts, that it could have been you, who kicked them out for being cowards escaping ISL. Unlike you, I truly feel sorry for these Syrians. Peace out.

Angela
30-07-16, 05:57
Maybe I shouldn't have come on here when it's so late. I must not be understanding this correctly.

Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are? Is everyone aware of the fact that Christian boys are being literally crucified for not renouncing Christianity and accepting Islam, and that Christian girls are being raped and forced to be sex slaves for ISIL members, all in contravention of the Quran, I might add, which exempts "People of the Book" from this kind of treatment?

They are cowards for not staying when they are so hugely outnumbered, have no arms, and they are facing genocide? Are we supposed to take these opinions seriously?

Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe. But then, "race", which isn't really "race", but is more about the "relative" darkness of one's pigmentation, is the most important factor in some European countries, and all the rationalization and excuses in the world won't disguise that fact.

It's really and truly sick making.

You must have made these poor people very welcome, indeed, if they all left for somewhere else as quickly as they could.

Tomenable
30-07-16, 11:13
LeBrok,

Non-Muslim Syrians are not ethnic Arabs. They are descended from Pre-Arabic population of Syria, without any Arabic admixture.

There are genetic differences beteween Muslims and Non-Muslims in the Middle East. Muslims have more of non-local admixtures.

Angela,

If refugees leave another country and go to Germany, they do this for economic reasons (Germany offers higher welfare checks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0

Tomenable
30-07-16, 11:19
For very similar reasons - including more benefits - refugees prefer to go to Sweden instead of staying in Denmark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmqbtyfQ3f8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmqbtyfQ3f8

Maciamo
30-07-16, 13:18
Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are?

According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011) (http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Struggle_For_Syria.pdf), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.


Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe.

I agree that non-Muslims should be welcomed to Europe as refugees, at least until ISIS is defeated and they can live again in Syria without fearing to be killed, tortured, raped or forcefully converted.

Tomenable
30-07-16, 13:52
According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011) (http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Struggle_For_Syria.pdf), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.

That was in 2011.

Now we have 2016 - and I am sure that the percentage is lower. Many have been killed or forced to leave Syria.

bicicleur
30-07-16, 13:58
According to the Struggle For Syria report (2011) (http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/Struggle_For_Syria.pdf), there are approximately 13% of Christians in Syria + 3% of Druzes, 2% of Ismaili, and 1% of others (Jews, Assyrians, Circassians). That's nearly 20% of non-Muslims.



I agree that non-Muslims should be welcomed to Europe as refugees, at least until ISIS is defeated and they can live again in Syria without fearing to be killed, tortured, raped or forcefully converted.

The same goes for the Yezidi and Shia Muslims who get the same treatment by ISIS.
But I've always said :
- on condition there is no alternative for these people elsewhere
- no European citizenship, they should go back home as soon as it is possible
if these people don't return home in the end, that will mean a kind of victory for ISIS
- only basic acomodation
- they should look for a job by which they could pay better acomodation for themselves
- those that don't get a job should be obliged to do usefull community services
- Europe should be actively involved in the war against ISIS

What happened now is that Europe is not atracting so much the real refugees but rather economic migrants.
Europe is trapped by their own rules made up by some politicians in some ivory tower.
The rules should be completely reviewed.

Maciamo
30-07-16, 14:13
That was in 2011.

Now we have 2016 - and I am sure that the percentage is lower. Many have been killed or forced to leave Syria.

Exactly. I was hoping to get an estimate of the percentage of non-Muslims among the refugees.

Maleth
30-07-16, 15:12
Maybe I shouldn't have come on here when it's so late. I must not be understanding this correctly.

Is everyone aware how few Christian Syrians there actually are? What a small percentage of the population they are? Is everyone aware of the fact that Christian boys are being literally crucified for not renouncing Christianity and accepting Islam, and that Christian girls are being raped and forced to be sex slaves for ISIL members, all in contravention of the Quran, I might add, which exempts "People of the Book" from this kind of treatment?

They are cowards for not staying when they are so hugely outnumbered, have no arms, and they are facing genocide? Are we supposed to take these opinions seriously?

Are there some economic migrants flooding into Europe? Undoubtedly, but there are undoubtedly also Christian refugees who deserve better from their religious compatriots in Europe. But then, "race", which isn't really "race", but is more about the "relative" darkness of one's pigmentation, is the most important factor in some European countries, and all the rationalization and excuses in the world won't disguise that fact.

It's really and truly sick making.

You must have made these poor people very welcome, indeed, if they all left for somewhere else as quickly as they could.

Angela I think you are referring to IS radicals (who stem from the Sunni group) since they have taken over in many regions. Christians were not the only ones persecuted under this radical group but Sunnis who did not comply to their extremism, Shias and other groups (mostly have the Muslim religion). Under Asad (Shia) Christians were highly respected, and pope John Paul stated that too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xBOxSfEb2U

but on the other hand Asad has been known to be a tyrant against Sunnis (But which Sunnis). The west has been very adamant on his removal for commiting crimes against humanity, While Russia seemed to prefer working with him as they though it would be a better option. This is something that both the West and Russia do not agree on. Who is right and who is wrong? Do we know all the details? Its very complex.

Angela
30-07-16, 16:14
LeBrok,

Non-Muslim Syrians are not ethnic Arabs. They are descended from Pre-Arabic population of Syria, without any Arabic admixture.

There are genetic differences beteween Muslims and Non-Muslims in the Middle East. Muslims have more of non-local admixtures.

Angela,

If refugees leave another country and go to Germany, they do this for economic reasons (Germany offers higher welfare checks):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0QBe9QY2-0

Are you specializing in non-supported statements lately? This isn't the thread to discuss the matter in detail, but your statement is untrue. Technically, only people from the Arabian peninsula are Arabs. Everybody in the Middle East is the result of a complex series of admixtures. When the Muslim forces arrived in the Levant, much of the population was Christian. There was ongoing pressure to convert, and most did just that. There is no consensus as to how many new people arrived from Arabia and Yemen during that period or in subsequent ones, but how different could they have been given that the Bronze Age Levantine sample we have clustered near Saudis? Are there some differences? Yes, there are, especially among certain Palestinians like the people of Gaza, who have recent Egyptian admixture, and the Muslims also absorbed some SSA from the Arab slave trade, but look up the Lebanese Christians versus the Lebanese Muslims in Admixture runs. The differences are minor. That's what the founder of Poland's religion looked like, and Mary and all the Apostles, like it or lump it.

Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?

I happen to do some volunteer work for Catholic Charities, who have tried to get visas for Christians from the Levant. They are model immigrants in my experience: grateful to be here and very hard working. Do they need to be on welfare in the beginning? Yes, they do, but they are helped to get jobs. Sometimes the work is far below what they used to do at home, often because their English skills are not adequate, or their credentials are not transferable, and so the jobs are not very high paying. That means they still need food stamps in some cases, and Medicaid, which is free medical care, and a bit of a housing allowance after the initial period when parishioners house them in their own homes in some cases, but they're not sitting around refusing to work, With the proper guidance and support they are making a go of it. Their children seem to be making a great transition. Personally, I find them warm, friendly, and generous even with the little they have in their modest apartments, far more congenial than some people in European countries, to be brutally honest.

Really, the differences between America and Europe are profound in some matters. Thank goodness this is where my father brought me, if we had to leave.

Tomenable
30-07-16, 16:24
Angela,


Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?

Most of them lack even basic education, a huge percent are illiterate. Only 4% are well-educated.

Even if they wanted to work, there would be no demand for so many unskilled workers in Europe.

====================

This is also the case in Germany:

https://archive.is/VLptV


Refugee influx to cost Germany 25 to 55 billion euros annually: study

An influx of a million refugees could cost Germany up to 55 billion euros ($60 billion) a year, according to a study by a prominent economic research center.

One assumption in the estimate is that 30 percent of refugees would return to their homeland, and another 20 percent would have trouble finding a job [very optimistic assumptions!]

The study found that while refugees may increase demand and economic output, thereby contributing to growth, the social welfare expenditures would also increase and counteract overall gains in prosperity. (...)

Economically, they are a net loss.

bicicleur
30-07-16, 17:53
Technically, only people from the Arabian peninsula are Arabs. Everybody in the Middle East is the result of a complex series of admixtures. When the Muslim forces arrived in the Levant, much of the population was Christian. There was ongoing pressure to convert, and most did just that. There is no consensus as to how many new people arrived from Arabia and Yemen during that period or in subsequent ones, but how different could they have been given that the Bronze Age Levantine sample we have clustered near Saudis? Are there some differences? Yes, there are, especially among certain Palestinians like the people of Gaza, who have recent Egyptian admixture, and the Muslims also absorbed some SSA from the Arab slave trade, but look up the Lebanese Christians versus the Lebanese Muslims in Admixture runs. The differences are minor. That's what the founder of Poland's religion looked like, and Mary and all the Apostles, like it or lump it.


This is some guessing but ..

The Christian Syrians claim to descend from the old Assyrians, who were Semites, hence probably E-M123.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif

Arabs are J1-P58.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

Arabic Muslims out of Arabia first conquered Mesopotamia, then North-Africa and then Iran.
North-African J1 is J1-P58, it arrived there with Muslim conquest, in several stages (it has been conquered by different subsequent Arabic Muslim dynasties). In some areas they replaced or outnumbered the original Berber population.
I don't know, but Mesopotamian J1 might very well be J1-P58 too, arriving with Arabic Muslim conquest.
In Iran it is not the case, not much J1-P58 over there. It was not much of a conquest, more a revolution. The Iranians were not happy under Sassanid rule which had become corrupt over time and they wellcomed the Arab Muslim 'conquerors'.

There are also quite some J1-P58 in Ethiopia, but this was a pre-Islamic expansion from Yemen.

There is also some non-Arabic J1-P58 but not much.

bicicleur
30-07-16, 18:05
Nice dig about the welfare, by the way. So, they don't want to work, or you didn't help them get jobs or provide the proper counseling?



What Tomenable says is correct.
There is the language barrier and 17 % of the refugees registered in Antwerp are completley illiterate.
They can get extra schooling for free, that is provided, but in many cases they both lack the qualifications and the attitude.
And, I admit, if an employer can chose between an autochtone and an allochtone with the same qualifications, he'll chose the autochtone because he still trusts the autochtone more. In Belgium to get a job you need to be trusted by the employer because once you have the job, it is very expensive for the employer to sack you (unlike in America).

Some even dare to claim we need these immigrants, they will pay the pensions of our population which becomes older and older.
When I hear such claims I become mad.

I gave me opinion above.
These people shouldn't get European citizenship. They should return home as soon as it is possible. They'll feel much better over there.

Angela
30-07-16, 18:10
Get your facts straight, gentlemen...


Angela,



Most of them lack even basic education, a huge percent are illiterate. Only 4% are well-educated.

Even if they wanted to work, there would be no demand for so many unskilled workers in Europe.

====================

This is also the case in Germany:

https://archive.is/VLptV



Economically, they are a net loss.

Get your facts straight before posting, gentlemen...

I'm not talking about the whole flood of migrants to Europe recently from Afghanistan, North Africa, SubSaharan Africa and on and on. Your thread was about Christian Syrians. We can extend it to Christian Levantines. I WORK with these people. Who told you that Christian Levantines, or even Muslim Levantines, are illiterate and have no job skills? Who is feeding you this information, Tomenable? You really have to start thinking for yourself; you're too intelligent for this.

The people for whom I help to process immigration matters are, or used to be, small shop keepers, carpenters, electricians, teachers, nurses, the occasional doctor or business manager even. The official statistics support that this isn't some fluke.

Back in the 1980s, literacy among the Lebanese as a whole was 80%, and it went up from there. Among the Christian Lebanese it was even higher. There were 16 colleges and universities in that small country, many of them Catholic. The American University of Beirut was a great place. I know people who went there.
http://countrystudies.us/lebanon/66.htm

What drags down the statistics in the Levant is the literacy rate among Muslim WOMEN, which is a huge problem, I agree, but even so, it's not like rural, southern Morocco, for goodness sakes'.

The story is similar in Syria...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria

"Christians (as well as the few remaining Jews in the country (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Syria)) engage in every aspect of Syrian life. Following in the traditions of Paul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Paul), who practiced his preaching and ministry in themarketplace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketplace), Syrian Christians are participants in the economy, the academic, scientific, engineering, arts, and intellectual life, entertainment, and the Politics of Syria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Syria). Many Syrian Christians are public sector and private sector managers and directors, while some are local administrators, members of Parliament, and ministers in the government. "

Look at the statistics here. Literacy is in the high 90s in Syria.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/syria_statistics.html

You are being fed totally inaccurate information, as are a lot of Europeans. As I've said before, in certain parts of Europe, the more homogeneous ones especially, there is absolutely no real knowledge of people from other parts of the world, so prejudice, rumor, and innuendo are substituted.

This is a Christian Lebanese, by the way, by ancestry anyway...big, bad, scary, Ralph Nader:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader

He was way too liberal for me every to vote for, but an admirable and accomplished man, nonetheless.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2168451223/headshot_nader.jpg

The much, much, beloved Danny Thomas, whose St. Jude's Hospital is an absolute wonder.

"As a "starving actor", Thomas had made a vow: If he found success, he would open a shrine dedicated to St. Jude Thaddeus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_the_Apostle), the patron saint of hopeless causes. Thomas never forgot his promise to St. Jude, and after becoming a successful actor in the early 1950s, his wife joined him and began traveling the United States to help raise funds to build his dream - St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Thomas#cite_note-16) He fervently believed “no child should die in the dawn of life.”[17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Thomas#cite_note-USPS-17)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Thomas

http://inspirationboost.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Danny-Thomas-Success-Quotes.jpg


The Danny Thomas Show and Make Room For Daddy were constantly in re-runs when I was growing up. It still occasionally shows up;whenever it was on, I encouraged my children to watch it: funny, heart-warming, just the kind of things I wanted to influence my children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txJRv-tv8ok&list=PLbKOcc4q-5p4VYeWH7BKHVJzFu3gC5eGW&index=30

bicicleur
30-07-16, 18:17
They are model immigrants in my experience: grateful to be here and very hard working. Do they need to be on welfare in the beginning? Yes, they do, but they are helped to get jobs. Sometimes the work is far below what they used to do at home, often because their English skills are not adequate, or their credentials are not transferable, and so the jobs are not very high paying. That means they still need food stamps in some cases, and Medicaid, which is free medical care, and a bit of a housing allowance after the initial period when parishioners house them in their own homes in some cases, but they're not sitting around refusing to work, With the proper guidance and support they are making a go of it. Their children seem to be making a great transition. Personally, I find them warm, friendly, and generous even with the little they have in their modest apartments, far more congenial than some people in European countries, to be brutally honest.

Really, the differences between America and Europe are profound in some matters. Thank goodness this is where my father brought me, if we had to leave.

I guess in Syria, the Christians are among the best educated.

In my posts I was talking about immigrants in Europe during last 2 years as a whole.

If we would treat Christian Syrians different from other immigrants in Belgium there would be a lot of protesters claiming the immigration system is 'racist'.

Angela
30-07-16, 19:24
I guess in Syria, the Christians are among the best educated.

In my posts I was talking about immigrants in Europe during last 2 years as a whole.

If we would treat Christian Syrians different from other immigrants in Belgium there would be a lot of protesters claiming the immigration system is 'racist'.

Check the statistics from Syria again, Bicicleur. Those numbers in the link I provided were for all Syrians, and the percentage is up in the high 90s.

In Lebanon, the number is pulled down a bit because there are some tribal people in the south who are included.

While it's generally true that Christian Levantines are more educated on the whole than Muslim Levantines, the literacy numbers for Levantine Muslims are very high. Beirut was called a little Paris for a very good reason; it was a very Cosmopolitan place. There is just a vast misinformation campaign going on, in my opinion.

You cannot lump all Levantines together, but neither can you lump all Muslims into one basket either. Other than language and religion, a southern Moroccan migrant couldn't be more different from an Alawite Syrian. There are an awful lot of migrants in Europe claiming to be "Syrian", when in reality they only have fake Syrian passports.

As to standards for immigration, I'm not advocating that all Christian Levantines be let in, and no Muslim Levantines. However, ISIS wants to exterminate the Christians (and the Yezidis, who may very well be mostly illiterate), and that is not the case for Muslim Levantines, although when you're talking about such horrors going on, how do you decide which is more horrible? I think the fact that in detention centers and migration centers some of the Muslim applicants try to kill the Christians should tell the authorities a great deal.

The fact is, though, that the U.S. government does screen potential immigrants because it doesn't want to admit Muslim extremists. When you're looking at the paperwork for Christian Levantines, and you see testimonials from their parish priests and parish records indicating that they've been Christian for as far back as the records go, you can be pretty sure they're not Muslim extremists.

Many of the other "Syrian" and generally "Middle Eastern" applicants for asylum, they can't provide any documentation whatsoever. Why is that?

As for the genetics:

Ydna is one ancestor out of hundreds, or thousands or ten thousands. It may have little to do with overall genetic similarity. Sixty to seventy percent of the Italians in my father's area seem to belong to downstream clades of S116; the vast majority of those are some clade of U-152. That doesn't make them Alsatians.

If we must speak of YDna, is this outdated then?
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lebychr.png?w=500

Syrian Christian data is harder to come by, but there is more on Lebanese Christians. Admixture analyses and PCAs are only one way to look at genetic similarity, but please look at the following. Are they identical? No, but they are very, very similar, and there is even overlap.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gNGfQ-Y3gNM/UTEX3FRvWiI/AAAAAAAAIqk/f6spz9zjY4I/s1600/journal.pgen.1003316.g002.png

Also as to Syrian Christians, the nomenclature is tricky...there is a difference between Syrian Christians and Christians of Syria. One of the links I posted above explains the differences. There are Syrian Christians in India. They are very different from the Syrian Christians of Syria.

Some more well known Levantine Americans.

General Abizaid:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/John_Abizaid.jpg/220px-John_Abizaid.jpg

Nicholas Naseem:
http://www.thoughtleaders.world/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Taleb_mug-600x600-c-top.jpg

Casey Kassim:
http://www.technologytell.com/entertainment/files/2014/06/Screen-shot-2014-06-16-at-12.49.53-AM.png

Only half, but...Steve Jobs:
http://slacfl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Steve-Jobs.jpg

bicicleur
30-07-16, 20:06
@ Angela

I was quoting numbers among immigrants as a whole, not specifically Syrian or Christian immigrants, there are no seperate data about that, and I'm sure it is the same about the numbers Tomenable quoted.

In Belgium we have politically correct laws, they don't allow to differentiate according to religion, the immigration administration has to apply the same criteria for all of them.
One of the reasons I hate political correctness.

Hungary, and maybe Poland too, are not so politically correct, they said they don't want Muslim immigrants, only secular or Christian, which fits better the autochtones inhabitants of their country.
I guess that is the reason why so many political correct people say East European people are racist.
I guess you allready noticed that in this forum too.

And something else, you say many Muslim women are illiterate, but the large majority of the immigrants are young men, which you'd expect to be the most literate.

And yes screening is not done as thorough as in America.
Many of the immigrants come without papers and lie about their origin and age.
The immigrants are assumed to tell the truth. It is the immigration officer who has to prove them wrong.
The immigration officers have only limited time to decide, and if they reject they have to motivate exactly why.
I explain you Belgian law. It does not mean I agree with that.

Angela Merkel says 'wir schaffen dass'

bicicleur
30-07-16, 20:26
As for the genetics:

Ydna is one ancestor out of hundreds, or thousands or ten thousands. It may have little to do with overall genetic similarity. Sixty to seventy percent of the Italians in my father's area seem to belong to downstream clades of S116; the vast majority of those are some clade of U-152. That doesn't make them Alsatians.

If we must speak of YDna, is this outdated then?
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lebychr.png?w=500


I agree, people today are an admixture of older populations.
But if you go back far enough in time, you can define some populations by Y-DNA.
And a great thing about Y-DNA is that TRMCA dates are often well-known.
It helps to reconstruct certain expansion or admixture events in prehistory or ealy history.

If you have more data on cosanguinity in WHG, let me know.

I think mtDNA is less apt to study population expansions and admixtures in the past because there is less info on TRMCA and because of exogamy, where the son stayed in the tribe and the daughter not.

Angela
30-07-16, 21:00
@ Angela

I was quoting numbers among immigrants as a whole, not specifically Syrian or Christian immigrants, there are no seperate data about that, and I'm sure it is the same about the numbers Tomenable quoted.

In Belgium we have politically correct laws, they don't allow to differentiate according to religion, the immigration administration has to apply the same criteria for all of them.
One of the reasons I hate political correctness.

Hungary, and maybe Poland too, are not so politically correct, they said they don't want Muslim immigrants, only secular or Christian, which fits better the autochtones inhabitants of their country.
I guess that is the reason why so many political correct people say East European people are racist.
I guess you allready noticed that in this forum too.

And something else, you say many Muslim women are illiterate, but the large majority of the immigrants are young men, which you'd expect to be the most literate.

And yes screening is not done as thorough as in America.
Many of the immigrants come without papers and lie about their origin and age.
The immigrants are assumed to tell the truth. It is the immigration officer who has to prove them wrong.
The immigration officers have only limited time to decide, and if they reject they have to motivate exactly why.
I explain you Belgian law. It does not mean I agree with that.

Angela Merkel says 'wir schaffen dass'

Bicicleur, you know I don't believe in unregulated migration. Nor, as I said, do I believe that only Christian migrants should be admitted. Nor are Tomenables figures about the refugees actually from Syria or Lebanon correct. Did you bother to read the links? Around 95% of Syrians of all religions are literate. I feel like I'm in cloud cuckoo land. Sometimes I wonder why I waste my time posting documentation for things.

The fact is that Tomenable started a thread about Christian refugees, and then said that the reason the Christian refugees left Poland was because they were looking for better welfare payments. He followed up with some figures that the migrants are all illiterate and have no job skills.

Statements like those are misleading, degrading, and dehumanizing.

I've been correcting the record, not just through statistics, but through what I've learned through personal experience.

That's it.

As for political correctness, you should also know by now that I'm not a big fan of it. I call it the way I see it, and always have, and let the chips fall where they may. I've also spent my whole professional life having to PROVE the things I say, in every particular, and having equally (well, not really :)) skilled people ready to tear me to shreds if I don't make the proper distinctions, or get the data wrong, or draw the wrong conclusions.

So, I'll tell it like it is, cultural sensitivities be damned, and say that Eastern Europeans are more racist than western Europeans, who are more racist, BY FAR, than "white" Americans. Even the poor, scattered remnants of East European Jewry who survived the Holocaust and returned to their homes were attacked and driven out.

They always have been, and all those years when they were behind the "Iron Curtain" allowed them to persist, percolate and marinate in their ignorance. That doesn't mean all of them were or are like that; it's a generalization.

I could quote studies, personal experiences of my own, but I'm getting tired of this, to be honest, and I'm not speaking of my conversations with you personally.

The truth is that most people here as elsewhere don't want to have a dialogue and maybe see how their opinions are based on prejudice, not on fact. If they do any research at all they just seek to confirm their biases. That's when it's not all a game and they aren't playing a role and hiding their real opinions. No matter what I write, most people will continue to see the world from the narrow box they live in. It's just what it is...

When you try to approach things logically and objectively and see all sides of an issue, things get very complex very quickly. A lot of people aren't into complexity.

bicicleur
30-07-16, 21:55
Bicicleur, you know I don't believe in unregulated migration. Nor, as I said, do I believe that only Christian migrants should be admitted. Nor are Tomenables figures about the refugees actually from Syria or Lebanon correct. Did you bother to read the links? Around 95% of Syrians of all religions are literate. I feel like I'm in cloud cuckoo land. Sometimes I wonder why I waste my time posting documentation for things.



I only saw this :

This is also the case in Germany:

https://archive.is/VLptV


Refugee influx to cost Germany 25 to 55 billion euros annually: study

An influx of a million refugees could cost Germany up to 55 billion euros ($60 billion) a year, according to a study by a prominent economic research center.

One assumption in the estimate is that 30 percent of refugees would return to their homeland, and another 20 percent would have trouble finding a job [very optimistic assumptions!]

The study found that while refugees may increase demand and economic output, thereby contributing to growth, the social welfare expenditures would also increase and counteract overall gains in prosperity. (...)


Economically, they are a net loss.

And I know there are many ways to calculate, and if you're biassed there will be completely different results, but I trust this is a realistic estimate.

Again this is about the total package of refugees, into Germany in this case.

And I know that we think the same about a lot of things. I should tell the others, but well yes, this is cuckoo land. And yes, sometimes I exaggerate, just to go against these people.

I think selective immigration can be a positive thing. But Europe has very strict rules about that. Everything is controlled very strictly, and everything has to be documented.
But this is about people who claim to be refugees who come without papers and who are assumed to tell the truth. Notice the difference.

I don't know whether Tomenable is talking about specifically Christians or not.
If you're talking about these 'refugees' in general it is true, 99 % only wants to go to countries with very generous social security systems.
It tells a lot about their real intentions and their attitudes.
On top, most of them believe the stories of their human traffickers with whom they made the trip and who told them German or Swedish social security is even much more generous than what they are in reality.

And I believe you what you claim about East Europeans being more racist than West Europeans who are more racist than white Americans. All kinds of explanations are possible. And the more the recent immigration wave into Europe fails the more racist Europeans will become. That needs no explanation.

Maciamo
30-07-16, 22:33
If we would treat Christian Syrians different from other immigrants in Belgium there would be a lot of protesters claiming the immigration system is 'racist'.

And that's exactly the kind of attitude that gets on my nerve from those (presumably less educated) Europeans who throw the word racist at people who want to distinguish people based on their religion (which is completely different from race). Even if they used the word discrimination, which is more semantically correct, I would still object because it carries a very strong negative connotation. When are they going to understand that it is essential for Europe's survival and well-being to recognise that Muslims do not have the same values, attitudes and behaviour as other people, and that many of them have no intention of ever integrating?

Maciamo
30-07-16, 22:41
Bicicleur, you know I don't believe in unregulated migration. Nor, as I said, do I believe that only Christian migrants should be admitted.

Angela, I always respect your opinions. As you know, I am not opposed to welcoming non-Muslim refugees. I wonder, however, what are your arguments in favour of accepting Muslim immigrants to Western countries nowadays? Does that apply only to well-educated and religiously moderate Muslims, or any Muslim?

Angela
31-07-16, 00:32
This is a Unicef study that I posted above about the people of the "Syrian Arab" nation. How could refugees from Syria be illiterate when these are the figures for actual Syrians created by an international organization. Look at the education levels, as well.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/syria_statistics.html

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Many of the people flooding into Europe are not Syrian or Levantine or from Turkey. A lot of them are Afghans, North Africans, Egyptians what have you. Even the people carrying Syrian passports are not necessarily Syrian. Some of them may even be terrorists in disguise; they said they would do that and I see no reason not to take them at their word.

Yes, immigrants can cost a country more than they contribute, which is why it behooves countries to put into place the kind of counseling, job and otherwise, for the refugees they do admit, which will insure that they move into decent paying jobs as soon as possible, if possible.

You haven't presented me with any proof that actual Levantines who go to Europe are any different from the Levantines who come here. The ones here, I repeat, don't want to sit home and collect welfare. These people are very proud; they want to earn a living themselves, support their families, see their children thrive. They're just like you and me. Sometimes they need a little help, but that doesn't make them leeches.

Bicicleur, I've lived in both Europe and America. I know the similarities and the differences. Europeans don't accept non-Europeans, they don't even accept other Europeans from different countries. For goodness sakes', look at the Balkans. Even in other areas it's true, however. The fact that Muslim immigrants have not been assimilated is not just the fault of the immigrants, it's also because of the attitudes of Europeans.

@Maciamo,

I hope that I don't need to say that the feeling is more than reciprocated, Maciamo. :)

As to whether to allow Muslim immigration, there are a lot of Americans who agree with you, including my husband.

Anyway, my attitude toward Muslim immigration is different depending on the context. I have no problem with Muslim immigration to the U.S., provided that, and this is a big IF, the background can be thoroughly checked. You can vet Christian Middle Easterners relatively easily through their parish priests, parish records etc.; in many cases, you can't vet Muslims from other places. That's a problem.

As for Europe, we're dealing with a different beast. Europe hasn't had a new mass migration for a very, very long time. There is deep seated distrust even when the "other" is another European. Plus, this migration is taking place at a time when the Near East and North Africa are in the throes of a fundamentalist revolution. These are not the cosmopolitan, French speaking Lebanese of forty years ago. They're not even the average middle class Muslims of Turkey or the Levant of thirty years ago. Ideas matter; the whole Middle East has been proselytized and radicalized, and I honestly doubt that European societies can cope with or assimilate people who are this different from themselves. Nor do I think they can cope with the idea that because of vastly different birthrates they may become minorities in their own countries.

Did they believe in their own values more, maybe they would have presented more of an alternative to young Muslims in their boarders.

What I'm trying to say, however, is that the lack of assimilation cannot only be blamed on these migrants who went to Europe twenty or thirty years ago. You can't let people in, then park them in some prefab ghettos, pay them some welfare money to keep them quiet, and then walk away and have nothing more to do with them and think everything is going to work out just fine. America doesn't have nearly the same problem, the percentage of ISIS wannabees in the Muslim population is so much smaller, because Muslim immigrants have had a very different experience here. My internist is a Pakistani born female doctor, my hairdressers are a husband and wife team from Turkey, Muslims, who have their own shop, and are making a ton of money, my daughter dated a boy for a couple of months whose family has ancestry from Iran, and his father is on Wall Street. They're not mad bombers, they don't treat their daughters like chattel and refuse to educate them, or force them into a burka. They're educated, moderately religious when not religious at all, and they're no threat to anyone.

bicicleur
31-07-16, 17:16
Angela,

I agree Europeans are more racist than white Americans, I allready told you that.
But immigration into Europe is a mess because there is no realistic European immigration policy.
I told you before how hard it is for someone with the proper education and skills to immigrate into Europe and how easy it is to get into Europe as 'refugee' without papers and with a phony story. I think in America this is impossible.
We need some European politicians with some spine.
Some spine to go against the Unions who overprotect the European employees with all kind of complicated rules which makes it very dificult to hire someone from outside the EU, and as you say yourself they even try to obstruct people from other countries within the EU. It is the overprotection of employees and even of jobless people which makes Europeans much less mobile than Americans. There are still a lot of political parties in the EU with ties to certain Unions. Work regulations in Europe have to become much simpler.
Some spine to go against the political correct groups who want to believe all those so-called 'refugees' and to accept them all without any selection or condition.
Sometimes I think it is more the ambition of Angela Merkel to win the peace Noble price instead of governing Germany and Europe in the appropriate way.
As long as that don't change, immigration into Europe is bound to fail.
And I also told you, the more immigration fails, the more racist Europeans will become.

By the way, I object your critics that not enough is done in Europe to invest in immigrants.
It doesn't lack them opportunities to get extra schooling.
But the first thing is to learn the language.
And there are a lot of low educated and even illiterates. You can't make doctors of them. They need the right attitude to make themselves usefull. But many come with to high expectations, partly because of the stories told by human trafickers.

Angela
31-07-16, 20:05
Angela,

I agree Europeans are more racist than white Americans, I allready told you that.
But immigration into Europe is a mess because there is no realistic European immigration policy.
I told you before how hard it is for someone with the proper education and skills to immigrate into Europe and how easy it is to get into Europe as 'refugee' without papers and with a phony story. I think in America this is impossible.
We need some European politicians with some spine.
Some spine to go against the Unions who overprotect the European employees with all kind of complicated rules which makes it very dificult to hire someone from outside the EU, and as you say yourself they even try to obstruct people from other countries within the EU. It is the overprotection of employees and even of jobless people which makes Europeans much less mobile than Americans. There are still a lot of political parties in the EU with ties to certain Unions. Work regulations in Europe have to become much simpler.
Some spine to go against the political correct groups who want to believe all those so-called 'refugees' and to accept them all without any selection or condition.
Sometimes I think it is more the ambition of Angela Merkel to win the peace Noble price instead of governing Germany and Europe in the appropriate way.
As long as that don't change, immigration into Europe is bound to fail.
And I also told you, the more immigration fails, the more racist Europeans will become.

By the way, I object your critics that not enough is done in Europe to invest in immigrants.
It doesn't lack them opportunities to get extra schooling.
But the first thing is to learn the language.
And there are a lot of low educated and even illiterates. You can't make doctors of them. They need the right attitude to make themselves usefull. But many come with to high expectations, partly because of the stories told by human trafickers.

We agree as to the relative degrees of racism.

America also has no realistic immigration policy, and that includes its policies toward refugees. The major difference is the source of the immigration. We're not right next door to the Middle East; we're right next door to Latin America. Our floods of immigrants come from there. High percentages of them do indeed come with no skills other than in farm work even if many are marginally literate. Since they enter illegally, they are not screened for disease; we have had upticks in tuberculosis and other communicable diseases as a result. There is no screening for past criminal activity, so they import their criminal gangs, Mexican, a lot of them, or the Central American gangs like MS-13. So, along with women and children we get cartel members who import drugs and guns.

Unlike immigrants from Europe, Italians, Poles, etc., they do resist learning English, and whole bilingual education programs have been set up for them. You know what my bilingual education program was? The nun told a neighbor of ours to tell my mother not to worry about the fact that instruction was in English and not a single person there spoke Italian, and in under a year I'd be speaking English. It was sort of the drop the kid in the lake and eventually he'll learn to swim method. I'm pretty good at languages so it took a lot less than a year, but it was scary at first and alienating. Do I recommend that approach? No, I don't, but these bilingual education programs aren't set up to wean the kids into English classes as soon as possible. They're not helping them. If you want to get a good job, you have to learn English fast.

A lot of them do indeed go on welfare and cost the U.S. incredible amounts of money spent on social services. I could post study after study here but nobody really seems to read them. Trust me, despite what Democrats try to sell, when you count everything, even if they were all legalized and therefore paid taxes, the net net is that they cost more than they contribute. That may not be the case for their grandchildren, but it's the case now, largely because they're not able to command high paying jobs. The result is that even if they're working, many of them can't make it on their take home pay, and so they qualify for food stamps, and housing assistance, and on and on. Don't get me wrong, a lot of them are really hardworking people. Many if not most of them are not sitting in their public housing smoking dope all day like some "native" Americans, white and black. The women walking into my neighborhood from the bus stop to do housework or childcare or eldercare, the gardeners etc. are often illegal immigrants from Latin America. So are day laborers who do a lot of the less skilled construction work.

Even this is a complicated issue, however. White Americans have a very low birthrate, although not as low as that of Europe. Italians are a freaking endangered species, something that drives me bonkers. Who is going to take these jobs? It's work that needs to be done, after all, although I supposed you could say people should just take care of their own old people, and children, and mow their own lawns, as they used to do when I was growing up. There are other areas, though where that kind of do it yourself won't work. All agricultural labor can't be mechanized. Who is going to do that work?

Also, money has to go into the system not just in terms of income taxes, but also in social security taxes, to pay for the huge bulk of baby boomers who are going to flood the system and drain social security coffers, and through free health care through Medicare.

There's the whole issue of skilled blue collar and lower middle class white collar work to address. I've read all the papers, and it's incontrovertible to me that this flood of immigration is depressing the wages of "white" Americans in these fields. There aren't enough of those jobs to go around anymore. It used to be that a high school graduate or even someone who didn't finish high school could support his family decently by working in the car industry in Detroit, or the coal mines of Tennessee, or as a bricklayer or a carpenter. Now many of the factories have shut, not only because they were mismanaged, but because in a global economy our factories can't compete with factories in Asia that pay their people slave wages. The Democrats have declared war on the coal industry, so there goes that. They closed down the oil pipeline, and on and on. For the few jobs that remain, why pay a union worker a decent wage when some illegal immigrant from Mexico will work for half that. These people are not taking jobs from the children of people like Michael Bloomberg. They're taking jobs from working class Americans, and they're justifiably angry. I'm sick to death of this, well, we feel your pain, but you're just going to have to retrain for something else. As with your example from Europe, a lot of these people, the salt of the earth in many ways, don't have the intellectual capacity to become computer programmers, and it's dishonest and shows a lack of real compassion to pretend that this is any kind of solution.

Less academically capable "native" Americans are being hit by a double whammy of mechanization and immigration. That's part of what's fueling Trump's rise.

As to how refugees are handled, it's a mess here too. I've said that I've volunteered with Catholic Charities to help Christian refugees from the Middle East. I used to do a bit with Central American refugees as well, but no more. In the beginning there were actual refugees among them, but soon it was crystal clear to me that many of them were actually economic refugees, and we can't take in all of Latin America. I feel for them, believe me, very nice people a lot of them, and I have no "racial" problem with them immigrating here; it's just that we can't absorb them all.

The only difference that I can see between the situation in Europe and that in the U.S. is that luckily this uncontrolled stream of immigrants in the U.S. is not composed of people who come from a part of the world that hates our way of life, hates Christianity, or wants to bring down our government. I may not like the Mexican flags that get waved around, or the ones that say give back Texas, but it's a very different situation.

As to unions and work rules in Europe, don't even get me started. The fact that teachers are unionized in the U.S. is one of the reasons that our education system is going down hill. There is no accountability. A lousy teacher stays as well as the good teachers. That's one of the reasons that inner city black and Hispanic kids flood the Catholic schools. There's none of that ****there; plus, they maintain discipline. No teachers getting beaten up in the halls, no sex in the school bathrooms, none of it. Unions were meant to make sure that people got a living wage, that health and safety standards were maintained, it shouldn't be about ensuring that incompetent people keep their jobs, but that's what it's become. At one point I had the romantic notion that I would start a company in my ancestral area, which is still rural and not as prosperous as the more urban areas around it. As soon as my husband read the employment regulations (who was going to capitalize it), he was like, forget it. I'm out of here. Well, the language was more colorful than that. :) I've been part of a family owned business. We've paid more than competitive wages, provided health care etc., but if you're late or just barely on time in the morning, and the first out at night, you talk on the phone for personal matters, you don't take customer service seriously, and that includes letting the phone ring more than three times before picking it up, or you work sloppily and inefficiently, you're out so fast that your leaving creates a windstorm. (I do have to admit that the "You're fired" atmosphere was not created by me. I'm too soft for it, but I acknowledge that's what's needed to create a successful business.)

bicicleur
31-07-16, 21:57
your story is a bit depressing, it is the same here or even worse
we both can't help and don't have a solution

I have been an employer too, here in Belgium, my products were sold worldwide.
I felt I wouldn't be able to compete with low wages any more, I sold my bussiness right in time.
I've visited some factories in Turkey, 300 km inland, near the Syrian border. The make exactly the same product, many of my customers buy there now.
The cost of unskilled labour was 3 % of that in Belgium. The wages don't rise in that area, because there are no other jobs to be found. In Belgium they still rise.
Fair enough, I couldn't compete any more, I couldn't change my product enough to differentiate, I sold my bussiness when I still got a good price.

Belgian construction workers are among the highest paid in the world. They are also the most arrogant. A little bit of rain or cold and they don't show up. They report sick often and don't want to make extra hours. That is because there never were many foreign construction workers on Belgian soil before some 10 years ago.
You know all that has changed. East Europeans started to come when they joined EU. Since the financial crissises in Europe (with Grexit as a climax) , we now have many Spanish and Portuguese construction workers too, coming from areas where there are no jobs any more.
Now Belgium and the EU are thightening up regulations to protect autochtone construction workers. In Brexit this was a topic too.
That pisses me off. I don't think such things are possible in America.
Many European employees live in a dream. They don't realise how hard it is to survive outside of Europe or even in some European countries.
There is no sense of reality any more.

bicicleur
02-08-16, 10:52
only half, but...steve jobs:
http://slacfl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/steve-jobs.jpg

--------- fyi


steve jobs wasn't the son of syrian immigrants, and even less of refugees. His mother, joanne schieble simpson, is american of swiss and german descent. His biological father, abdulfattah jandali, was a self-made syrian millionaire who studied at the american university of beirut (lebanon), then did a phd at the university of wisconsin–madison, where he met steve's mother. When joanne got pregnant, abdulfattah's parents in syria refused that they got married as she was not muslim, and the baby was given up for adoption.

The story is closer to that of barack obama, whose mother was also an american of central/northwest european descent, and whose father was a rich and educated muslim. His parents also met at university in the us and the father went back to his country (kenya) when barack was two years old.

Angela
02-08-16, 16:05
--------- fyi

I know that, Bicicleur. Neither were any of the other people I posted refugees, although in those cases I think their ancestors came here poor.

The point I was trying to make was that people from the Levant can indeed assimilate to a "western" country and to "western" values.

I am not directing this to you, but it's clear to me that some of the resistance to this migration into Europe is not just that it's too many people, which it is, or that it's unregulated, which it is, or that it includes too many unskilled people, and perhaps even terrorists, which it does.

Some of it is old fashioned "bigotry" against the Middle East. The same is true of the U.S. and the resistance to Mexican and other Latin American illegal immigration. There would still be resistance, but it would be less if the flood was coming from Canada instead.

It's just a fact.

bicicleur
02-08-16, 16:49
I know that, Bicicleur. Neither were any of the other people I posted refugees, although in those cases I think their ancestors came here poor.

The point I was trying to make was that people from the Levant can indeed assimilate to a "western" country and to "western" values.

I am not directing this to you, but it's clear to me that some of the resistance to this migration into Europe is not just that it's too many people, which it is, or that it's unregulated, which it is, or that it includes too many unskilled people, and perhaps even terrorists, which it does.

Some of it is old fashioned "bigotry" against the Middle East. The same is true of the U.S. and the resistance to Mexican and other Latin American illegal immigration. There would still be resistance, but it would be less if the flood was coming from Canada instead.

It's just a fact.

I am not against immigration per se. I am against immigration the way it is happening in Europe right now.
I am glad you understand that. Many don't. They even won't allow me to explain. They become to defensive. Of course, I don't have your patience and diplomacy.

DuPidh
02-08-16, 17:15
I am not against immigration per se. I am against immigration the way it is happening in Europe right now.
I am glad you understand that. Many don't. They even won't allow me to explain.

Immigration is not good in any way one sees it.
First: It destroys the fabric of host society. The ethnic groups are a natural product of thousand of years of evolution. Emigration just destroys that. Or at least is a Trojan horse that will undermine the host society sometime in the future. Emigration happens from failed societies to developed ones. Emigrants carry with them the seeds that failed those societies, like corruption, laziness, bad evolution traits, which with continue to exists and flourish in the host society.
Second: People even though they share a distant ancestry as a result of thousand of years of separation have evolved differently in terms of intelligence. For instance pre European population of Americas which is supposed to have its beginnings 25 000 years ago is the product of 3 women. If these three women were dumb which is possible, most of their offsprings will also be dumb according to the law of heritage. Now suppose one of these dumb Mexicans for instance marries a smart Anglo -Saxon, their offspring will be smarter than the dumb ancestor but dumber than the smart one. So in the long run they will undermine the successful society to the point of mediocrity. So scientifically were is the benefit of immigration?
If you believe the liberal propaganda that all people are equal then emigration is good but liberals can't answer the question: Why most of societies in the world are failed when the intelligence of its people is suppose to be the same with successful nations?
Third: Sorry for the long post. It makes it hard to read.

Maleth
02-08-16, 17:25
I know that, Bicicleur. Neither were any of the other people I posted refugees, although in those cases I think their ancestors came here poor.

The point I was trying to make was that people from the Levant can indeed assimilate to a "western" country and to "western" values.

I am not directing this to you, but it's clear to me that some of the resistance to this migration into Europe is not just that it's too many people, which it is, or that it's unregulated, which it is, or that it includes too many unskilled people, and perhaps even terrorists, which it does.

Some of it is old fashioned "bigotry" against the Middle East. The same is true of the U.S. and the resistance to Mexican and other Latin American illegal immigration. There would still be resistance, but it would be less if the flood was coming from Canada instead.

It's just a fact.

I cannot but agree more with what you have stated Angela. And its not very easy to explain what you just said, especially with so much anxiety and fear around, but smart and wise enough not to fall into the generalizing and sweeping statement trap that some unfortunately fall into. I have also been following LeBroks argument on the subject very often, I believe he has also been trying to make this point. If there is a challenging situation (in any scenario) one cannot go round demonizing, insulting and slamming a whole group of people in a black and white type of reasoning, when there are plenty of shades of grey in between. I understand that not everyone has the ability to digest the different shades of grey in between, which obviously would require more brain cells to recognise each and every shade of colour, so would feel relieved with an easy black and white type of reasoning. If we didn't have enough smart people around we would still be living in a European Medieval type of scenario (maybe not that far either really) where towns would be willing to consume each other with all the consequences that will bring.

Maleth
02-08-16, 17:34
It destroys the fabric of host society.

And what is the history of the fabric of the host society? probably some kind of migration story spread on thousands of years. History is all about that, not 200 years was that peaceful especially let alone thousands of years, especially in the towns and cities with larger populations with High economic activity. Look at the GREAT ancient civilizations for example. Nothing could be more mixed then Egypt, Babylon (tower of babel? confusion of languages?) even Athens. What about Rome? Look at London and New york?

Angela
02-08-16, 17:47
Immigration is not good in any way one sees it.
First: It destroys the fabric of host society. The ethnic groups are a natural product of thousand of years of evolution. Emigration just destroys that. Or at least is a Trojan horse that will undermine the host society sometime in the future. Emigration happens from failed societies to developed ones. Emigrants carry with them the seeds that failed those societies, like corruption, laziness, bad evolution traits, which with continue to exists and flourish in the host society.
Second: People even though they share a distant ancestry as a result of thousand of years of separation have evolved differently in terms of intelligence. For instance pre European population of Americas which is supposed to have its beginnings 25 000 years ago is the product of 3 women. If these three women were dumb which is possible, most of their offsprings will also be dumb according to the law of heritage. Now suppose one of these dumb Mexicans for instance marries a smart Anglo -Saxon, their offspring will be smarter than the dumb ancestor but dumber than the smart one. So in the long run they will undermine the successful society to the point of mediocrity. So scientifically were is the benefit of immigration?
If you believe the liberal propaganda that all people are equal then emigration is good but liberals can't answer the question: Why most of societies in the world are failed when the intelligence of its people is suppose to be the same with successful nations?
Third: Sorry for the long post. It makes it hard to read.

Bunk. Also hypocritical. Didn't you used to sport a Mexican flag? Now it's a U.S.A. flag. So, are you one of those sub-par Hispanics who are ruining the fabric of American life according to you? Your attitudes, I emphasize, not mine.

Do you know that you're on a site that rather specializes in the study of genetics and history? Pray tell me which human group is "pure" and not the product of admixture.

Also, I hate to break this to you, but groups which breed only within themselves run a risk of inbreeding and breeding depression. It's not a good thing.

Third, I really get a kick out of men posting things like this. Most men will "mate" with a woman of any race or nationality whatsoever so long as it's on offer, and sometimes when it's not. Discrimination and fastidiousness are in short supply in my experience.

Fourth, the most powerful country in the world, the fountain of innovation in technology, is a nation of immigrants; it didn't work out so badly.

Fifth, we don't take kindly to people masquerading under false pretenses. Clearly indicate your ethnicity and your location or there will be consequences.

You can keep your "name"; it's so perfectly apt and descriptive.

@Bicicleur,

As you can see, I'm only patient and diplomatic with those who deserve it. :)

Aaron1981
02-08-16, 18:02
And what is the history of the fabric of the host society? probably some kind of migration story spread on thousands of years. History is all about that, not 200 years was that peaceful especially let alone thousands of years, especially in the towns and cities with larger populations with High economic activity. Look at the GREAT ancient civilizations for example. Nothing could be more mixed then Egypt, Babylon (tower of babel? confusion of languages?) even Athens. What about Rome? Look at London and New york?

In those ancient societies you didn't try to change this host, you adapted to it. Unfortunately, that is considered racist on those poor immigrants nowadays, especially in western countries. You know the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?

Angela
02-08-16, 18:27
In those ancient societies you didn't try to change this host, you adapted to it. Unfortunately, that is considered racist on those poor immigrants nowadays, especially in western countries. You know the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?


The Anglo-Saxons didn't try to and indeed change the host? The Lombards didn't try to and indeed change the host? They brought it crashing down and what were they after all but starving refugees? How about the Moorish invasion of Spain? How about the Magyars? How about the Turks?

Not that I'm in favor of that, mind you, but let's not attempt to sanitize the past when the barbarians were of a different ethnicity.

I've already said that I don't think that Europe can handle or absorb so many people from cultures that don't share modern, secular, European values. Nor do I think Hispanic immigrants to the U.S. should resist learning English. What they speak at home is another matter.

Maleth
02-08-16, 18:57
In those ancient societies you didn't try to change this host, you adapted to it. Unfortunately, that is considered racist on those poor immigrants nowadays, especially in western countries. You know the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?

.....of course, Curry should be banned. Its evil

bicicleur
02-08-16, 19:02
The Anglo-Saxons didn't try to and indeed change the host? The Lombards didn't try to and indeed change the host? They brought it crashing down and what were they after all but starving refugees? How about the Moorish invasion of Spain? How about the Magyars? How about the Turks?

Not that I'm in favor of that, mind you, but let's not attempt to sanitize the past when the barbarians were of a different ethnicity.



that was indeed another kind of immigration
there was no host, they fought there way in to get a spot completely for their own

Angela
02-08-16, 19:16
that was indeed another kind of immigration
there was no host, they fought there way in to get a spot completely for their own

No, there was a host. The Eastern Roman Empire survived for another 1000 years before being brought down by another set of barbarians. The Western Empire might have done the same. Ditto for the Britain of the Britons.

That's the pattern of history, in my opinion: the civilized core weakens and the people on the periphery stream in. If modern Europe doesn't want to go the same way it not only has to control the immigration, it also has to figure out what it does believe in and solve some of its internal problems.

Maleth
02-08-16, 20:40
In those ancient societies you didn't try to change this host, you adapted to it. Unfortunately, that is considered racist on those poor immigrants nowadays, especially in western countries. You know the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?

I am presuming with your statement that you are part of the first Nation Peoples mourning your loss. Otherwise you would not post such a thing.

Forced assimilation[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada&action=edit&section=9)]Further information: Canadian Indian residential school system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system) and Sixties Scoop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixties_Scoop)
From the late 18th century, European Canadians (and the Canadian government) encouraged assimilation of Aboriginal culture into what was referred to as "Canadian culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Canada)".[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-RoyalCom-sg3-109)[110] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-110) These attempts reached a climax in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with a series of initiatives that aimed at complete integration of the aboriginal peoples. These policies, which were made possible by legislation such as the Gradual Civilization Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradual_Civilization_Act)[111] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-gradcivact-111) and the Indian Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Act),[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-Indian_Act-112)focused on European ideals of Christianity, sedentary living, agriculture, and education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada

bicicleur
04-08-16, 16:11
what about this one :

Why we need more immigrants, not fewer
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-more-immigrants-not-fewer-000000796.html

because there is a shortage of nail sallons and pizza bars in the US ?

bicicleur
04-08-16, 16:13
I am presuming with your statement that you are part of the first Nation Peoples mourning your loss. Otherwise you would not post such a thing.

Forced assimilation[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada&action=edit&section=9)]

Further information: Canadian Indian residential school system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system) and Sixties Scoop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixties_Scoop)
From the late 18th century, European Canadians (and the Canadian government) encouraged assimilation of Aboriginal culture into what was referred to as "Canadian culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Canada)".[109] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-RoyalCom-sg3-109)[110] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-110) These attempts reached a climax in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with a series of initiatives that aimed at complete integration of the aboriginal peoples. These policies, which were made possible by legislation such as the Gradual Civilization Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradual_Civilization_Act)[111] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-gradcivact-111) and the Indian Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Act),[112] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada#cite_note-Indian_Act-112)focused on European ideals of Christianity, sedentary living, agriculture, and education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_peoples_in_Canada




no it was you yourself who started about anciant Egypt/Babylon

bicicleur
04-08-16, 16:22
No, there was a host. The Eastern Roman Empire survived for another 1000 years before being brought down by another set of barbarians. The Western Empire might have done the same. Ditto for the Britain of the Britons.

That's the pattern of history, in my opinion: the civilized core weakens and the people on the periphery stream in. If modern Europe doesn't want to go the same way it not only has to control the immigration, it also has to figure out what it does believe in and solve some of its internal problems.

when the presure became to high they let in some tribes and made a treaty with them
most of them had the duty to defend the borders of the Empire against their fellow barbarian tribes
they had to stay in the area they were supposed to defend and couldn't move freely through the Empire

quite a different immigration strategy from what Europe is doing now

Maciamo
04-08-16, 23:03
Here is a timely article by Pew Research (http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/08/02/1-asylum-seeker-origins-a-rapid-rise-for-most-countries/" href="http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/08/02/1-asylum-seeker-origins-a-rapid-rise-for-most-countries/) which confirms what Angela was saying about most refugees flooding into Europe since 2015 not being Syrians. According to them, out of the 1.3 million asylum seekers who came to the EU in 2015, only 29% were Syrians. 15% were Afghans, 10% Iraqi, 10% Albanians/Kosovars, 5% Eritreans/Somali, 5% Pakistani/Bangladeshi...

The report is very detailed and spreads on 10 pages. It also confirms what I explained in the Brexit thread, namely that the UK and Ireland are the two EU countries that have welcomed the least refugees per capita in the EU. The UK accepted 10 times less refugees per capita than cold and distant Finland, which mustn't be the dream destination for all the hot countries refugees. So the idea that Brexit will prevent refugees from entering the UK is ridiculous as very few are already entering now.

Interestingly 63% of asylum seekers in Finland came from Iraq. The top nationality reaching the UK is Eritrea, but they only make 10% of all refugees, so the ethnic diversity of refugees is far greater in the UK than elsewhere, and very few are from Syria. Syrians seem to prefer Hungary, Germany, Scandinavia, the Benelux and Spain. They also make the bulk of refugees in Cyprus, Greece and Romania, but never exceed 45% of all new refugees.

In contrast, Slavic countries, Italy, Switzerland, France, the UK and Ireland have proportionally very few Syrian refugees.